IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-07-07
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07:05:19 <Wakou> Do newgrfs auto-update if there is a new version?
07:05:36 <Alberth> no, openttd does not phone home unless you tell it to
07:05:56 <Terkhen> as long as the author uploads the updated version to the online content and you click on "update all content", they will update
07:05:59 <Alberth> also, in running games, updating newgrfs is not possible
07:06:16 <Alberth> you you can use newer versions only in a new game
07:06:43 <Wakou> So if one of you clever types is working on say 32pp graphics, how do I get them?
07:07:11 <andythenorth> is new FISH done yet?
07:07:40 <Alberth> download the newgrf, install it from the intro menu, and start a new game, would be the way
07:07:51 <Terkhen> andythenorth: andythenorth is the person who develops FISH, give him a highlight and he'll answer you when he's not busy
07:08:20 <Alberth> hi andy, he was shipping stuff, but it seemed not fishy
07:10:15 <Alberth> Wakou: normally, new releases are also posted in the forum
07:10:30 * andythenorth wonders if it's ok to bug andythenorth about FISH
07:12:17 <Alberth> he's a friendly chap, just tends to wander off every now and then to take care of RL stuff
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07:12:47 * andythenorth wonders where the baby is going
07:12:55 <andythenorth> he can only crawl backwards right now
07:13:19 <andythenorth> think he's getting stuck behind a door
07:13:19 <Alberth> you should learn him to switch gears :)
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07:23:27 <Terkhen> good morning dihedral and Wolf01
07:25:42 <dihedral> I have been thinking about FS #4632 and the more I look at it, the more I come to the conclusion not to change it :-P
07:27:03 <Alberth> the problem was querying company money?
07:28:08 <dihedral> I was trying to find a suitable place in the CompanyMonthlyLoop when looping over all companies is done already anyway, in order to call c.cur_economy.company_value = CalculateCompanyValue(c);
07:28:47 <dihedral> and use c.cur_economy.company_value then also in the output of the console command, and provide access to the value to the game scripts
07:29:17 <dihedral> but then the performance field of cur_economy would need updating also
07:30:15 <Alberth> ah, yes, I was wondering whether a script could get it, as it can become a company, but not, apparently
07:30:56 <dihedral> the only other place where the value is realtime, is in the company details window on the client side
07:31:26 <Alberth> people should use a web cam :)
07:31:36 <Wakou> All seem to be empty files?
07:32:00 <Alberth> Wakou: seems that way
07:32:20 <Wakou> So my r691 is the last working one?
07:32:31 <Terkhen> Wakou: you might want to ask at the OpenGFX+ Trains thread
07:32:41 * Terkhen does not know which one work and which one does not
07:32:58 <Alberth> Wakou: r691 rings a bell with me
07:33:13 <Alberth> There are some problems w.r.t. storage at the site
07:33:24 <Terkhen> but if we judge from file size... yes, r691 looks more correct than newer ones
07:35:08 <Terkhen> Wakou: I remember something about a backup server holding newer nightlies; if I'm not misremembering the link should be at the forum thread
07:38:19 <Alberth> iirc, you may also want to investigate the new eGRVTS, it was also updated with 32bpp I think
07:39:04 <Alberth> or at least, there were discussions about it, and it got resolved :)
07:39:32 <Wakou> I have asked before, but in case other people are here, is there a way, (CLI option?) to disable the sounds at the 'splash screen' stage.. or even 'pause' the splash screen?
07:44:29 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you know what would be useful? if you could comment a revision directly (e.g. have a button to create a ticket for this revision)
07:45:32 <dihedral> and link it back to the view of the revision :-P
07:45:55 <dihedral> i.e. this revision has following tickets :-P
07:54:19 <Eddi|zuHause> well, that is already possible (if there is already a ticket, you can link the revision to it)
07:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause> (by giving the ticket number in the commit message)
07:59:37 <planetmaker> Fix #4302 (r234): Fixed stuff
08:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also a variant where you don't close the ticket, but i forgot which keywords to use there
08:02:03 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I activated the module "code reviews" now with CETS. Now browse the repo and find in the far right the possibility to open a review for that particular file and revision
08:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: thanks, will check it out later
08:05:30 <planetmaker> wrt closing: A commit message starting with either of "fixes,closes,fix,close,bug,fixed" closes
08:05:54 <planetmaker> a commit message with either of "refs,references,Issue,add,updated,part of,part,*" references (thus anything which reads like rXXX)
08:06:22 <planetmaker> uhm... not rXXX but #XXX
08:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think the trac plugin that i once used allowed things like (fix #AAA, ref #BBB) where it closes one ticket and leaves open the other
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08:07:25 <planetmaker> that might not be feasible here now
08:07:32 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if this one does that
08:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i vaguely remember the documentation saying it did not
08:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but i'm really not sure
08:25:27 <andythenorth> special cases :P
08:25:41 <andythenorth> "special cases will be the death of your nice framework"
08:31:07 <andythenorth> why did I make hydrofoils lift out of the water when they are at speed? :P
08:31:14 <andythenorth> that's a whole extra template :P
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08:37:43 <Rubidium> he's like Shroedinger's cat
08:37:58 <cmircea> bot commands start with?
08:38:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: he's either here or not here, but every time you actively look for him, he's gone?
08:38:57 <Alberth> cmircea: the last time he said something is not much of an indiaction whether he is around
08:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but if it's several weeks or months ago, it might indicate rather not :(
08:39:42 <Rubidium> also, it's a meta question for the real question you wanted to ask
08:40:02 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this is also a metadiscussion :)
08:40:10 <Alberth> yeah, if you want something of him, just state what you want, and then wait
08:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so he got what he asked for :)
08:40:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i just read "and then quit" :p
08:42:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: ^ you involved in this too?
08:43:15 <andythenorth> yes / not really
08:43:40 <Alberth> cmircea: in general, it is much better to ask in general, then just for a single person, unless you KNOW he's the only one that can give you answers
08:43:55 <cmircea> Alberth, I asked on the forums, just wanted to point him to that.
08:44:05 <andythenorth> he was around yesterday or so
08:44:14 <andythenorth> he'll be here when he wants to be here ;) And otherwise not
08:44:23 <Rubidium> well, two main things:
08:44:46 <Rubidium> #1 we run our own server, so I see no need to use other external services to run a part of our website
08:45:22 <Rubidium> #2 the server doesn't run Windows, so Microsoft technology might not be that well supported (if supported at all)
08:45:37 <Rubidium> and then some minor thing:
08:46:09 <Rubidium> #3 you need to implement the 'look' of the website again, thus significantly increasing the amount of work
08:46:35 <Rubidium> #4 currently it's implemented in django and I think it will stay that way in the forseeable future
08:46:48 <cmircea> Rubidium, TB hinted that the current design is terrible and should be changed though.
08:47:20 <cmircea> Rubidium, fair points though. Mono does run MVC 3 web apps just fine though.
08:47:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "design" might have referred to the code, not the visual stuff
08:47:24 <Rubidium> cmircea: yes, so an ill designed .NET application must be written in something else?
08:47:34 <Rubidium> s/written/rewritten/
08:47:42 <Rubidium> (for it to become well designed)
08:47:54 <cmircea> Eddi|zuHause, no, the look: "For night and year BaNaNaS has a frontend. It is ugly. It is terrible. I have seen all kind of words describing it, most my own. Sadly, I am not a designer, nor do I pretend to be one"
08:48:03 <cmircea> Rubidium, not really, but it was an offer.
08:48:26 <andythenorth> TB said it would stay in Django
08:48:36 <andythenorth> means I have to learn Django :P
08:48:44 <Rubidium> cmircea: reading that quote, the main thing TB seems to be asking for is the (user interface) design
08:49:35 * andythenorth wtfs at something local
08:50:05 * Rubidium wonders whether that's actual (baby) shit hitting an actual fan ;)
08:50:05 <andythenorth> numbers cannot be identifiers in nml :P
08:50:34 <Alberth> they are already used as numbers :)
08:52:23 <cmircea> Rubidium, but yeah, BaNaNaS needs significant changes. Right now I don't see it as more than a directory on steroids.
08:52:35 <cmircea> Usable... but not great.
08:53:01 * andythenorth deliberately breaks the nml sprite templates :P
08:53:07 <Alberth> start with a design of the UI?
08:53:21 * Alberth gives andythenorth some glue
08:53:43 <andythenorth> don't start with ui design ;)
08:53:51 <andythenorth> what the entities in play?
08:53:57 <andythenorth> what workflows must be supported?
08:54:03 <andythenorth> workflow / fun :P
08:54:39 <Alberth> I fully agree with that :)
08:54:41 * andythenorth causes nml assertions
08:55:34 <Alberth> it's still a bug, as NML should not assert, but give you an error message
08:57:59 <andythenorth> yeah, it's not making debugging easy :)
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08:58:14 <andythenorth> kind of stumped right now
09:02:09 <Alberth> add a print repr(string_id) just above the assert
09:03:12 <Alberth> isn't there an option to dump the stack trace?
09:04:13 <Alberth> yes, add an -s option (--stack)
09:04:53 <andythenorth> ok so it was missing strings
09:05:09 <andythenorth> not sure how to patch nml correctly to warn of that
09:05:22 <Hirundo> Just file a bug report
09:05:40 <Alberth> can you make an example spec?
09:05:56 <Hirundo> And of course, thou shalt not have missing strings
09:06:08 <andythenorth> I can post instructions on how to reproduce :P
09:06:27 <Alberth> "hire andy for testing" :D
09:06:54 <andythenorth> feel like I should patch nml for this, but I only have 2-3 mins at a time for coding
09:06:58 <andythenorth> then I get interrupted
09:11:30 <Alberth> given there is an assert here, there should be a check before somewhere to catch your case.
09:14:08 <andythenorth> something like: if not string_id in blah raise foo
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09:17:01 <Alberth> like I said, your case is not expected to get there, and should have been caught somewhere before
09:17:39 <Alberth> ie assert x means "we really don't expect x to ever fail"
09:18:32 <andythenorth> hmm, cropped ships in the buy menu doesn't look brilliant
09:18:40 <andythenorth> nvm, it is what it is
09:19:49 <Alberth> sounds like a tricky problem, in essence you want a small version of your ship
09:20:25 <andythenorth> scaled looks bad, that's been tried before
09:20:31 <andythenorth> cropped is better
09:20:50 <andythenorth> but some of the crops will look odd because they'll show only hull, no cabin etc
09:21:13 <andythenorth> the alternative is to patch nml for setx
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09:24:17 <Hirundo> Such a patch will only be accepted iff OpenTTD considers it the right thing (tm) to do
09:24:38 <andythenorth> it has to, it's in the newgrf spec ;)
09:24:58 <andythenorth> this newgrf spec thing is quite variable isn't it :)
09:25:02 <Hirundo> newgrf spec allows overwriting action bytes with action6, doesn't mean we have to support that
09:25:09 <andythenorth> some things may never be changed lest they break old grfs
09:25:12 <andythenorth> other things may be :P
09:27:11 <andythenorth> currently lack of setx 'blocks' porting FISH to nml
09:27:22 <andythenorth> except I don't think I actually care ;)
09:28:10 <Hirundo> Alberth: Is setx actually the recommended way of doing buy menu offsets?
09:29:03 <Alberth> but I am not sure what to do
09:29:40 <Alberth> eg is it OK to allow newgrf authors to provide a 600 pixel sprite in the buy menu?
09:29:50 <andythenorth> setx is a bad and silly feature
09:30:01 <andythenorth> it gives the buy menu a ragged edge that I dislike
09:30:14 <andythenorth> newgrf authors should crop
09:30:28 <andythenorth> and they should consider the wisdom of providing sprites that are too big
09:30:29 <Alberth> so I think you have to set some fixed limit
09:30:54 <Alberth> where 70? pixels seems as good as any
09:31:08 <andythenorth> "sprite doesn't fit the buy menu" -> your sprite is too big, reconsider your grf
09:31:50 <Alberth> the other option is to move texts after checking the sprite sizes, but you still need some sane upper limit imho
09:32:19 <andythenorth> the oversized sprites in FISH cause other problems, e.g. flickering in game, overlapping scenery etc
09:32:36 <andythenorth> being too big for the buy menu indicates they are realy a bad idea
09:32:42 <Alberth> in which case you may as well put the text there always, which returns you to the fixed size solution
09:32:44 <frosch123> someone also suggested to draw the selected engine image below the list in the details
09:33:00 <andythenorth> uses too much vertical space
09:33:11 <planetmaker> below as in the z-axis. text on top?
09:33:25 <andythenorth> oh that was FooBar's request
09:33:30 <planetmaker> hm.. also ambiguous. Written over
09:33:32 <andythenorth> I was thinking below in the y plane
09:34:02 <Alberth> and as 70px is as good as any, the only thing left to do seems to remove the setx support in the buy menu
09:34:10 <andythenorth> and wait for complaints
09:34:36 <planetmaker> you know... there's no course of action which won't cause complaints
09:35:10 <Alberth> I rather set a recommendation in the newgrf spec and have newgrf authors refrain from using setx hacks
09:35:18 <andythenorth> I like remove setx, it's a good measure of how much people care
09:35:38 <andythenorth> complaints = conversation = interesting
09:36:07 <planetmaker> It was only left as it broke buy menus of some NewGRFs iirc
09:36:13 <Alberth> it's not worth a big fight imho
09:36:37 <planetmaker> but I don't recall which. Most likely 2ccTS and some CanSet
09:36:45 <planetmaker> no, it's not worth it
09:37:25 <planetmaker> But FISH has an author who involves himself constructively in discussions and puts moaning aside even when he doesn't like the outcome too much ;-)
09:38:33 <Alberth> displaying it elsewhere seems like a good direction to me
09:38:53 <andythenorth> breaks NARS 2 as well
09:39:30 <planetmaker> but would it break, if the sprites are assumed fixed width and text drawn right of it (or left for rtl)?
09:40:01 <andythenorth> it would 'break' as in, the spec changed
09:40:08 <andythenorth> and the grf no longer works as intended
09:40:18 <andythenorth> it wouldn't break in any significant way
09:40:59 <planetmaker> vehicles have a purchase menu sprite and a name. Both need be associated. But... that won't break, will it?
09:41:38 <andythenorth> only the positioning
09:42:23 <andythenorth> I would miss sprites in the buy menu. Just text is a bit meh
09:42:47 <Alberth> we'd keep sprites imho, but also display the "real" thing
09:43:02 <Alberth> that makes authors not want to use the real thing in the menu, I think
09:43:26 <andythenorth> do we have screen space spare?
09:43:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: sure, sprites msut be kept
09:43:41 <planetmaker> I didn't suggest skipping those :-)
09:43:51 <Alberth> I was wondering about that too, it needs rethinking buy menu layout
09:44:14 <andythenorth> k, so limit max width of sprites in rows, add a new bigger sprite display when selected
09:44:41 <Alberth> what if we give 2 lines to each vehicle, one for the sprite and the text under it?
09:44:44 <andythenorth> move the stats and picture to the right
09:44:58 <andythenorth> most screens are landscape orientated, vertical space is at a premium
09:45:01 <planetmaker> Alberth: that would only lengthen the purchase list. Which is already very long
09:45:13 <planetmaker> I don't see an issue with side-by-side for one vehicle
09:45:25 <andythenorth> remove the info from the bottom provides more vertical space, then add a panel to the right for the details
09:52:39 <planetmaker> yep. The detail info right or left (like newgrf list) is the window type which fits screen best
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09:55:18 <andythenorth> but only because it's not finished ;
09:55:40 <planetmaker> yes, like that. Still, the main list imho must contain sprites, too
09:55:50 <planetmaker> I only remember vehicles by their image. Not the name
09:56:42 <Alberth> planetmaker: look at the right :)
09:57:02 <planetmaker> Alberth: that means I have to click on each item to see the image. Much more click
09:57:02 <Alberth> but we can keep the buy menu sprites :)
09:57:31 <planetmaker> but I'm all for a standard purchase list sprite size
09:58:01 <planetmaker> or at least a max purchase list sprite width and a normed max height
09:58:23 <Alberth> Hirundo: does that answer your question? :)
09:58:32 <planetmaker> though I can also see the adv. in a text only list
09:58:43 <andythenorth> advanced setting :P
09:58:58 <Alberth> you'd need hover then for the image
09:59:21 <planetmaker> oh no. I rather have a text only list than an adv. setting for that :-)
09:59:40 <Hirundo> Alberth: Most excellently
09:59:55 <Hirundo> IMO there should be a small sprite in the list, and a (possibly) larger sprite in the side panel
10:00:10 <Hirundo> var10/18 can be used for that
10:00:54 <FLHerne> andythenorth: Your paddle steamer is a stationary cargo hovercraft??? :P
10:03:57 <andythenorth> we don't have any kind of precedent for that hanging panel I've drawn
10:04:31 <Hirundo> it should not be hanging, list and side panel height would be equal
10:04:56 <andythenorth> that's my conclusion too
10:05:11 <FLHerne> You could make it like the station menu, and display sprites for multiple directions?
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10:05:35 <andythenorth> then I could buy vehicles for multiple directions
10:05:42 <andythenorth> I have been missing that feature
10:06:32 <FLHerne> So that players can see what the boat looks like from multiple directions, I mean :D
10:06:54 <FLHerne> Or display variations for different cargos?
10:07:06 <andythenorth> FLHerne: available livery refits? :P
10:07:10 <Hirundo> That would be up to the grf author, he can decide what to show in that sprite
10:09:04 <FLHerne> With a window like that, the author could display multiple sprites for each boat, which would be useful when they change appearance on refit
10:13:27 <andythenorth> could also show the inevitable 32bpp sprites
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10:13:40 <andythenorth> and loads of flags and all the other crap
10:17:01 <Alberth> could be interesting at 8bpp :)
10:18:39 <frosch123> yeah, make the vehicle rotate on some kind of podium in the details
10:18:50 <frosch123> that'll make it look like a website from 2000
10:20:55 <andythenorth> we already have <blink>, so why not
10:21:05 * andythenorth often makes sprites with <blink>
10:23:37 <frosch123> actually, the sprite in the purchase list should be animated while selected
10:24:06 <frosch123> or when hovering the mouse?
10:24:37 <FLHerne> Can the industry purchase list have sprites? :P
10:26:10 <frosch123> you can't even select the layout
10:26:46 <andythenorth> because nobody wants to code it
10:27:07 <FLHerne> Seems reasonable... :-(
10:36:20 <dihedral> \o/ found a bug in my bot, where when a monthly job runs at the beginning of the quarter, it gets parsed before the new date gets parsed... yay!
10:38:04 <TrueBrain> lol, did this dude serious suggest using Amazing S3 and some unknown hosting party? How hard can you misread a topic :D
10:38:13 <TrueBrain> also lol @ using C# for a website ...
10:38:31 <TrueBrain> even Perl would be better :D
10:38:42 <frosch123> is there a vb to llvm compiler?
10:38:54 * NGC3982 is actually taking classes in C# after being shitstormed in this channel.
10:39:20 <TrueBrain> NGC3982: nothing wrong with C#
10:39:28 <TrueBrain> just .... use a language for its goal :)
10:39:31 <TrueBrain> websites is not a goal :P
10:39:54 <TrueBrain> (well, "nothing" ... it still is a MS language)
10:40:26 <TrueBrain> it comes from the same people who thin IE9 supports enough CSS3 and HTML5 to be AWESOME
10:40:55 <Alberth> TrueBrain: not entirely true, they hired the creator of Eiffel :)
10:41:33 <Alberth> and the language itself seems nice enough
10:41:51 <TrueBrain> I guess you refer to C#?
10:42:00 <Alberth> although the code blocks all over the place would not be my preference
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10:42:58 <Alberth> TrueBrain: on the other hand, they also ported C++ to .net, and dropped multi-inheritance :D
10:43:13 <Alberth> as the VM does not handle it :D
10:45:11 <frosch123> does c# have a preprocessor step?
10:46:01 <Alberth> it's basically a newer java, but it is actually moving forwards :)
10:48:01 * dihedral still has hopes for java
10:56:30 <Alberth> their only advantage is the wide platform support
11:13:43 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24378 /trunk/src/widget.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218]: ReInit could crash for windows with NWidgetMatrix widgets.
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11:59:45 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24379 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#5218-ish]: Do not resize the object GUI when selecting objects. Rather clip the object name.
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12:48:55 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24380 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5188]: RoadVehicle::IsInDepot did not check all articulated parts.
13:04:59 <andythenorth> extra buy menu sprite would need to use one of the other sprites from the action 1 set
13:05:06 <andythenorth> [seems easiest to me]
13:05:18 <andythenorth> toddler birthday party
13:13:56 <NGC3982> sweden has the worst weather ever
13:14:10 <NGC3982> it's like god vacuumed our oxygen away.
13:14:41 * FLHerne wonders whether to go out in the rain to look at this torch thing
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15:22:23 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24381 /trunk/src/ (roadveh.h roadveh_cmd.cpp): -Revert (r24380): RoadVehicle::IsInDepot was supposed to behave different to Train::IsInDepot.
15:35:30 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24382 /trunk/src/ (4 files): -Fix: Call Vehicle::IsStoppedInDepot only for the first vehicle in a chain (i.e. primary vehicle or free wagon).
15:37:31 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24383 /trunk/src/roadveh_cmd.cpp: -Fix: a comment.
15:39:49 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: frosch * r24384 /trunk/src/ (14 files in 2 dirs): -Fix [FS#5188-ish]: Make IsInDepot() functions behave consistent across vehicle types and add IsChainInDepot instead, if that is what shall be checked.
15:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> "behave differently"
15:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> needs to be an adverb :)
15:47:13 * frosch123 exorcises ln out of eddi
15:50:01 *** kkimlabs has joined #openttd
15:51:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you should try exp() to cancel out an ln() :)
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16:07:27 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
16:43:25 <frosch123> does anyone have trouble downloading firs 0.7.5 from bananas using the ingame client?
16:43:52 <frosch123> maybe windows users?
16:45:48 <frosch123> apparently some users get a corrupt file which has a different md5sum
16:46:03 <frosch123> but surprisingly the file still seems to be valid
16:46:47 <frosch123> there is no such file on bananas with such md5 as in fs#5231
16:47:06 <frosch123> also the md5 of the devzone download is correct
16:47:23 * andythenorth ponders that the game has three places to keep newgrfs
16:47:29 <andythenorth> took a while to find FIRS :P
16:51:44 <frosch123> maybe there is a virus modifying grfs when downloaded :p
17:18:25 <andythenorth> my ship speed calculation is still clearly quite wrong
17:18:32 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
17:18:41 <andythenorth> my thoughts too :P
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17:20:25 <andythenorth> it helps if I configure my set correctly :P
17:20:40 <andythenorth> I have booleans for 'sea capable' and 'inland capable'
17:21:00 <andythenorth> if they're not checked, I reduce speed by 20% accordingly :P
17:43:03 * andythenorth considers which ships go faster unladen
17:44:23 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make sense for passengers (because they're rarely fully unladen anyway. and because they don't have such a high weight to make a difference)
17:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> neither for "vehicle ferry" types
17:45:13 <andythenorth> that's my thinking
17:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> river barges sounds right, though. and possibly container freighters
17:45:21 <andythenorth> PAX are a negligible fraction of the weight
17:45:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: translators * r24385 /trunk/src/lang/lithuanian.txt:
17:45:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:22 <CIA-4> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 90 changes by Stabilitronas
17:46:30 <Eddi|zuHause> so: "vehicle ferries" don't go faster, regardless of which cargo they're refitted to, other freight ships do.
17:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe ferries should go faster in general, but have lower tonnage
17:48:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm worried about the gamebalance of hydrofoils. in my game, i replaced all passenger ferries with hydrofoils at some point, because speed makes all the difference.
17:51:07 <andythenorth> can't think of a solution
17:51:20 <andythenorth> ever been on a hydrofoil?
17:51:53 <andythenorth> noisy, unpleasant, hot, smells of kerosene
17:52:11 <andythenorth> we did Vienna-Bratislava on an ex-Soviet river hydrofoil
17:52:30 <FLHerne> Uncomfortable at sea, too :-(
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17:53:01 * andythenorth though hydrofoils were smoother due to sub-sea foil
17:53:26 <andythenorth> wikipedia probably knows :P
17:53:27 <FLHerne> Depends if the waves are big enough to hit the hull anyway :-(
17:54:54 * andythenorth needs an assistant
17:55:00 <andythenorth> for entering of stats to FISH cms :P
17:56:27 <FLHerne> So finding stats, and then sticking them in a table?
17:57:07 <NGC3982> the akward moment when scotty makes his first apperance in star trek tng
17:57:13 * NGC3982 mouth is indeed open.
17:58:38 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: when he reappears out of the transporter?
17:58:57 <NGC3982> note that i havent seen these episodes before.
17:59:51 <andythenorth> copying stats out of the nfo
17:59:55 <andythenorth> and pasting them in
18:00:00 <andythenorth> possibly converting hex -> dec
18:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was a rather late episode?
18:00:12 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: yes, season six.
18:00:14 <TomyLobo> is it possible to run the simulation as fast as the CPU allows for a few years?
18:00:36 <TomyLobo> like, fast-forward 10 years
18:01:04 * andythenorth should find one of those js edit-table-in-place things
18:01:10 <FLHerne> Isn't that what the fast-forward button's for?
18:01:19 <TomyLobo> FLHerne that's too slow :)
18:01:20 * FLHerne probably just missed the point :P
18:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: if you run it headless (-v null) you can specify to run for a fixed number of ticks (that's intended for profiling purposes)
18:01:50 <TomyLobo> and can i load+save too?
18:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if it makes a savegame in the end
18:02:19 <FLHerne> Does fast-forward have a maximum speed limit? My computer would be slower than it anyway, so I don't know :P
18:02:37 <TomyLobo> FLHerne i doubt that. it uses 0% on my comp
18:02:55 <Eddi|zuHause> TomyLobo: but you can arrange the ticks in a way that it would end right after an autosave
18:02:56 <TomyLobo> and mine is very likely not 100 times as fast
18:03:05 <TomyLobo> Eddi|zuHause ah good plan
18:03:07 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: "engineering!? i thought you'd never ask!!"
18:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: i barely remember these episodes
18:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: and especially i've never seen them in english
18:04:01 <frosch123> "Forbid trains and ships from making 90° turns" <- is that actually english? shouldn't it be "prevent from" or "forbid to"?
18:04:23 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: oh, i see.
18:04:27 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: well, it sure is a blast. :)
18:05:05 <Eddi|zuHause> NGC3982: and certainly i have no clue which episode belongs to which season
18:06:00 <NGC3982> Eddi|zuHause: i often fail to deduce that, even though ive recently seen it.
18:09:58 <FLHerne> TomyLobo: It doesn't go any quicker on fast-forward than normal. I assume the limit must be higher than that...
18:11:27 <TomyLobo> did you underclock it?
18:11:46 <FLHerne> No, just used it for a while :-)
18:11:49 * NGC3982 used to have a pentium 3 for openttd.
18:12:30 <FLHerne> Secondary computer :-)
18:13:05 <TomyLobo> i have 4 cores at 3.2 ghz, makes 12.6 ghz, so to speak... so if you dont have less than 126 mhz (or since p4 is architecturally inferior, let's say 250 mhz), i dont see how you'd be CPU-limited while i dont even use 1% of mine
18:13:58 <FLHerne> Are you sure you're measuring it reliably? Seems impressively low
18:14:03 <TomyLobo> wait, it actually uses 35% now :D
18:14:24 <FLHerne> That convinces me a bit more
18:14:26 <TomyLobo> i.e. more than one core
18:15:07 <FLHerne> Try running it on a 133MHz PPC laptop :D
18:15:22 <TomyLobo> nah, PPCs need to die
18:15:41 * FLHerne objects strongly to that comment
18:15:47 <TomyLobo> no java 1.6 for ppc macs
18:16:07 <TomyLobo> that's why minecraft and many mods use java 1.5
18:16:09 <FLHerne> And? Java is hopeless anyway :P
18:16:13 <TomyLobo> and java 1.5 plainly sucks
18:17:44 <FLHerne> Has anyone else tried OTTD on m68k?
18:17:57 <Rubidium> I tried is on S/390 (emulated)
18:18:12 <FLHerne> Didn't work out well for me, perhaps someone else did better :-)
18:18:56 <FLHerne> Rubidium: What's the point in emulating things to run software that would be fine on the host anyway? :P
18:19:10 <Alberth> Atari ST was, and probably some Amiga too
18:21:30 <Rubidium> FLHerne: mainly because I didn't have the money to buy a S/390
18:22:57 <FLHerne> Why did you want to run OTTD on one anyway?
18:24:00 <Rubidium> because compilation failed on that (and some other architectures)
18:24:07 <Rubidium> and this was the easiest to emulate
18:24:30 <Rubidium> FWIW: a whopping 9 GB disk for a S/390 costs about 500 dollars on ebay
18:25:13 <Rubidium> and only 8k for a single S/390
18:26:07 <Rubidium> but then it's a mainframe from the 1990s
18:26:10 <FLHerne> How did you find out that compilation failed, then? :P
18:26:46 <Alberth> can you run it from a standard power outlet, or do you need to put in extra heavy cabling first?
18:27:56 <Alberth> in the latter case, 8k won't be enough then :)
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18:29:56 <FLHerne> Ah. Is there any way to find out how many people downloaded it for S/390? Probably not a lot...
18:30:10 <frosch123> LordAro: you are on windows, aren't you?
18:30:32 <frosch123> what file do you get when you download firs 0.5 from bananas using the ingame download?
18:31:46 <Rubidium> LordAro: what's the point of that feature? The ones you would like to have the text files of you can't get the text files from
18:40:32 <frosch123> you cannot really blame him for that :p
18:41:18 <frosch123> but yes, bananas should be able to provide the textfiles on their own, just like it should be able to provide 8bpp-only and normal-zoom-only stuff
18:41:28 <Rubidium> no, but this 'feature' makes that terribly clear
18:41:48 <Rubidium> and the main problem with bananas is that it needs a massive rewrite
18:42:47 <Rubidium> I furthermore also wonder how to handle all the asynchronicity and mirrors with pushing all readmes, licenses and such to there as well
18:44:09 <frosch123> why would that need anything special?
19:04:10 * andythenorth considers playing the game
19:04:14 <andythenorth> any new features recently?
19:05:11 <frosch123> recently or since you played the last time?
19:05:23 <andythenorth> within last month or so
19:06:13 <frosch123> i think in that time the number of open bugs raised from 20 to 40, else nothing happend :p
19:06:42 <andythenorth> we need new features!
19:06:48 * andythenorth offers to test patches :P
19:07:18 <frosch123> last one was newgrf signals, before that was advanced filtering in newgrf gui and others
19:07:44 <andythenorth> magic routing algorithms?
19:07:47 <andythenorth> for cargo packets?
19:10:07 <frosch123> route them to /dev/null
19:17:03 <andythenorth> hardly any industries
19:17:18 <andythenorth> don't use FIRS with 'low'
19:17:32 <andythenorth> or with 'normal'
19:18:09 <andythenorth> normal provides far too many
19:18:13 <andythenorth> low provides far too few
19:18:21 <frosch123> the number of industries in total is fixed per setting
19:19:37 <andythenorth> on a none-scientific estimate, 'normal' provides 300% of 'low'
19:19:46 * andythenorth could read the code of course
19:22:55 * andythenorth doesn't play a game after all
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19:57:54 <waterfoul> My trains keep getting stuck at either 0% or 100% after (un)loading... how do I fix them?
19:59:40 <Alberth> do you use time tables?
20:00:03 <waterfoul> I turn them on for a few trains and forgot about them
20:00:46 <waterfoul> how do you clear it?
20:00:59 <waterfoul> can you clear a timetable after it's been created?
20:01:17 <Alberth> isn't there a 'clear times' button?
20:01:48 <Alberth> otherwise the wiki might know
20:02:16 <waterfoul> oh... I was looking for a clear all button... you need to click on the times to enable the botton so I didn't see it
20:02:52 <Alberth> could be, I hardly use time tables
20:04:30 <frosch123> waterfoul: also read about shared orders
20:04:48 <frosch123> then you can set up timetables for multiple vehicles together, instead of only for some
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20:58:32 <waterfoul> is there a way to add some sort of penalty to a like so the teains are less likely to use it?
21:09:17 <frosch123> waterfoul: use a backfacing path signal
21:22:55 <NGC3982> neat, commander data is using a bnc contact to connect his neural interface in star trek tng.
21:25:20 <frosch123> that's security by obscurity
21:25:34 <frosch123> just imagine how few would know about bnc contacts in the future
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21:38:01 <monkeyman23555> I have a question about the 32bpp, I cant find any good documentation for 1.2.* versions.. I am currently on jupix.info/... can I just download the tar files and install them in a directory?
21:40:47 <monkeyman23555> is there a way to actually have 1.2.1 working with 32bpp at the moment?
21:43:19 <frosch123> you can use the nightly of ogfx+trains
21:43:23 <frosch123> then you have 32bpp trains
21:52:28 <frosch123> just put it into the "newgrf" folder of your installation
21:52:34 <frosch123> and add it via the newgrf settings
21:56:31 <monkeyman23555> I put the file into newgrf, but it does not show up in the newgrf settings, am I meant to extract it?
21:59:17 <frosch123> yes, then extract it, but leave the tar
21:59:29 <frosch123> you should have an ogfx-trains.tar in the end
22:02:06 <monkeyman23555> hm seems to be corrupted?
22:06:19 <monkeyman23555> infact it is of size 0 kb
22:07:52 <frosch123> 51M sounds like a decent size for a 32bpp newgrf with zoom levels
22:09:00 <monkeyman23555> I suppose so... 698 is also only 86KB apperently
22:12:45 <monkeyman23555> thank you frosch123
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23:07:59 <FLHerne> (belatedly, but anyway...)
continue to next day ⏵
