IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-05-08
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02:45:00 <jnxa> What are the things that are counted towards "Other" in the Finances window? I have no HQ.
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05:01:43 <planetmaker> jnxa: you always pay 300 / month as 'general administrative expense'
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09:19:23 <hackalittlebit> planetmaker: what time is frosch123 around normally?
09:20:00 <hackalittlebit> need to discuss flat maps
09:24:06 <planetmaker> but... laying out ideas etc in the forum usually is a good idea.
09:24:39 <planetmaker> it's then something one base a discussion on. And... more eyes = more ideas = better result
09:25:08 <hackalittlebit> If you have heightmap with same color it will give you flat map
09:25:22 <hackalittlebit> Is that legal?
09:25:37 <hackalittlebit> I mean to start game?
09:26:00 <planetmaker> I'm sure you don't mean legal :-) But what's wrong with a flat map?
09:26:30 <hackalittlebit> well it would make construction very easy
09:26:53 <planetmaker> if you define "I want flat map", the result "flat map" is desired
09:27:04 <hackalittlebit> for me fine, but is this not cheating in a ay
09:27:10 <planetmaker> if you define "mountainous map" via a non-uniform heightmap, a mountainous map is desired
09:27:43 <planetmaker> It's not cheating. It's defining easy starting conditions
09:27:57 <hackalittlebit> hold on I'll need some testing
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09:33:34 <hackalittlebits> panetmaker: options for Terrain Type. Very flat, flat, hilly, Mountainous
09:33:56 <hackalittlebits> very flat still gives some height difference
09:34:21 <hackalittlebits> what about option extra
09:34:46 <hackalittlebits> to get totally flat terrain
09:36:01 <hackalittlebits> or do 'very flat' and no height diff
09:36:55 <Eddi|zuHause> hackalittlebits: what difference does it make?
09:36:56 <hackalittlebits> it is allowed when loading height map or scenario editor
09:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> we seriously have more pressing problems...
09:38:14 <hackalittlebits> when you are able to make it in scenario editor and loading height map it should be allowen when just making new game
09:38:40 <Eddi|zuHause> why do we need 3 ways to do the same thing, then?
09:39:46 <hackalittlebits> ok eddy not realy important I know, thanks forget it.
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10:15:59 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it would make sense to offer that for 'new game'. But indeed that's a problem I didn't consider to be one
10:40:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: just put a "flat land" heightmap on bananas?
10:40:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no need really
10:41:02 <planetmaker> The SE generates it by default
10:42:30 <Eddi|zuHause> SE needs a way to select which of the usual map generation processes (towns, industries, rivers) should be run after creating/modifying the landscape
10:44:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "opening of berlin airport delayed" ... who'd've thunk?
10:44:28 <planetmaker> sunk? thought? shrunk? :-P
10:47:54 <planetmaker> like "it's in the internet, thus it exists"? :-) Interesting, though
10:52:31 <Hazzard> Hmm..thats interesting. I think it is an abreviation of "thought of"
10:54:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a more or less deliberate misuse of grammar
10:55:12 <Hazzard> It still makes more sence when you replace thunk with 'thought of' instead of 'thought'
10:55:20 <Hazzard> I have heard it quite a bit though
10:58:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Hazzard: the "of" doesn't make any sense...
10:59:06 <Hazzard> I guess it depends how you use it
11:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Hazzard: anyway, simply leaving out words doesn't make it an abbreviation
12:24:57 <V453000> hi, what was the command to kill an AI company on the server please?
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13:23:53 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
13:25:11 <planetmaker> no one knows more than that you have an unspecified problem.
13:25:33 <lestat> There is a new chart that allows all types of trains on the same rail that if the speed limit 31kh
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13:26:02 <planetmaker> you can set a speed limits in the train's order window
13:26:12 <lestat> I can not remember the name, anyone knows?
13:26:54 <planetmaker> if I haven't answered your question, I don't know what you ask :-)
13:28:35 <lestat> sorry I'm using the google translator and alo better lost in the translation
13:28:46 <lestat> nadie habla algo de español?
13:29:07 <planetmaker> If you're asking for a railtype which all train vehicles drive on: That NewGRF is called "universal rail" or similar
13:29:41 <planetmaker> it's available from in-game online content
13:30:23 <planetmaker> but of course it'll only be available, if you start a new game and selected it in the NewGRF settings before generating the map
13:30:58 <planetmaker> thus, you cannot add it to an existing game
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13:45:42 <lestat> attempts to enter the server to see if they can get new players
14:03:55 <dihedral> lestat, all other spanish servers are "YES_AIR"?
14:04:34 <Hazzard> I have discovered a tiny insignificant bug that no one cares about in the titlegame of 1.2
14:04:54 <dihedral> Hazzard, what is it?
14:05:19 <Hazzard> When the short diesel livestock/grain train crosses the yellow suspension bridge, the trees just after the bridge momentarily disapear
14:06:03 <Hazzard> It may vary which trains cause it
14:06:09 <dihedral> that'll make someone happy to hear about
14:06:18 <Hazzard> but for some it doesn't happen
14:06:43 <Hazzard> just saw an airplane crash in the titlegame
14:08:15 <Hazzard> An empty diesel iron or maybe wood train also seems to cause it
14:09:23 <Hazzard> The double-headed diesel train that comes after the ultra long diesal coal train
14:09:34 <Hazzard> and the livestock train that comes after that one
14:09:39 <lestat> please try to enter the server to see if you can
14:11:59 <Hazzard> lestat: Nope, it has some really old GRFs that appear to not be avaliable through the online content
14:12:29 <Hazzard> my bad, pretend I didn't say that last line
14:14:00 <Hazzard> Nvm, I just clicked the wrong button. The grfs are avaliable
14:14:09 <Hazzard> I didn't have any trouble joining
14:19:35 <Hazzard> @wiki curve length speed
14:20:04 *** Hazzard was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)
14:20:31 <dihedral> <lestat> please try to enter the server to see if you can <- stop advertising, we know its there ;-)
14:25:30 <TrueBrain> the script is rather efficient and very accurate :D
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14:28:56 <Hazzard> Sorry for my derpyness
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16:07:07 <nicfer> is there a hotkey for station/depot direction selection?
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16:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: the elements of the rail/road/whatever toolbar can be reached with the 1-9 keys
16:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> nicfer: the directions can currently not be changed with keys
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17:07:07 <andythenorth> should I be drawing coal mines?
17:07:17 <andythenorth> ISA's has kind of inspired me :P
17:13:18 <Nat_aS> FIRS needs a coal chain
17:13:25 <Alberth> inspiration is always good
17:13:34 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: what do you suggest for that chain?
17:13:40 <Nat_aS> send it to powerplants for easy money, or to steel mills for improved production
17:13:44 <Nat_aS> maybe some other industries
17:13:51 <Nat_aS> but those are the oubvious uses of coal
17:14:00 <Zuu> A coal chain with unusual low payments so that players that blindly go for coal get into trouble :-)
17:14:15 * andythenorth is a bit confused
17:14:29 <Nat_aS> Hmm, make coal a really low density cargo
17:14:39 <Nat_aS> so it needs huge trains to earn a profit
17:15:29 <Nat_aS> andythenorth, Zuu was making fun of how easy money coal is in normal games.
17:15:42 <Nat_aS> I always play tropical though, so wood is my easy money
17:15:50 * andythenorth might do something else for a bit
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17:19:54 <Terkhen> coal is easy money, you can dump it at a steel mill too, no need gameplay-wise for a power plant :)
17:23:43 <Rienzilla> is there a way to configure an openttd to make time go slower?
17:24:17 <Rienzilla> (so the technological advancements won come as quickly?)
17:24:58 <frosch123> you can play while paused :)
17:25:17 <Rienzilla> well thats not what i mean
17:25:41 <Rienzilla> if I play for a night on a game, then a friend also in that game is running on steam engines when I have maglev :)
17:25:44 <frosch123> there are various "daylength" patches, but they have various trouble
17:26:26 <Zuu> Or you can play at year 50000(?), then you will keep the same year through the entire game.
17:26:58 <Zuu> Or use game cheats to set time back a few times during the game.
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17:29:48 <Nat_aS> just disable engine expiring
17:30:07 <Nat_aS> Disreguard years, aquire trains.
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17:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24216 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by KorneySan
17:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 39 changes by VoyagerOne
17:45:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 40 changes by Eskymak
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 39 changes by Stabilitronas
17:51:21 <andythenorth> only 151 commits left until FIRS 3K :o
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17:51:32 * andythenorth might catch up with openttd
17:51:40 <andythenorth> [if he does small enough commits] :P
17:53:13 <Alberth> merge everything into one repository :p
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17:57:21 <andythenorth> Alberth: update the translation
17:57:27 <andythenorth> one string at a time
18:00:17 <frosch123> you might catch up in number of revisions
18:00:27 <frosch123> but you will not catch up in number of missing translations :p
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18:02:24 <andythenorth> what if I combine FIRS with CHIPS, HEQS and FISH?
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18:25:48 <Alberth> but firs dutch translation is up-to-date :p
18:26:04 <andythenorth> I could abusively change some strings :P
18:26:11 <andythenorth> I need another input cargo for the iron works
18:26:18 <andythenorth> it has iron ore and wood
18:26:26 <andythenorth> this is a balancing issue against the steel works
18:26:33 <andythenorth> sand? [for casting]
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18:28:35 <Alberth> combining all sets will make nml take a day or so to build :p
18:28:44 <andythenorth> scrap metal is plausible, but not very interesting
18:29:20 <Alberth> sand could be fun, and is not totally impossible :)
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18:33:51 <supermop> haha, you'd be hard pressed to justify using much sand
18:34:28 <andythenorth> 2t metal per 8t sand seems overkill
18:34:35 <andythenorth> but I need game balance :P
18:34:40 <supermop> also, why can't the paper mill use plant fibers?
18:35:30 <andythenorth> paper mill has 3 cargos already
18:35:46 <supermop> in tropical situations the name of sugar beet could change to sugar cane, but otherwise stay the same as now?
18:36:23 <andythenorth> supermop tried the grf? :
18:36:49 <supermop> playing a game with 0.7.4 lately
18:36:50 <andythenorth> casting metal uses 3 to 6 tons of foundry sand per 1t metal produced
18:36:55 <andythenorth> that's interesting
18:37:15 <supermop> can't they re use it?
18:37:44 <andythenorth> they can to some extent
18:37:55 <supermop> i had used chills pack so much that this is the first time i've played with a new-ish firs
18:38:46 <supermop> im using regular trains, and the manley morel, dash, and 125 all default to having the heads carry fruit
18:39:01 <andythenorth> that's interesting
18:39:15 <supermop> just noticed after 20 years of running horrible commuter services
18:39:16 <andythenorth> raise a FIRS bug?
18:39:31 <andythenorth> I have no idea why or what can be done to fix that :)
18:39:49 <supermop> as with the original DMUs i limit unpowered cars to 1 or 2 per MU set to keep HP up
18:40:40 <supermop> so would have a train of A-B-A-A-B-A (a is dmu head, b is passenger car), that could only carry 80 people
18:41:19 <andythenorth> I've no idea why they do that instead of PAX
18:42:18 <Alberth> you can stack fruit to the ceiling and on top of the engine :p
18:42:22 <supermop> me neither, never had that problem with 2cc etc so i am inclined to think its a default vehicle problem
18:42:27 <andythenorth> supermop: I can't replicate it
18:42:43 <andythenorth> Alberth: can you replicate that?
18:42:54 <andythenorth> of if you're busy, np
18:43:08 <supermop> I actually feel that every thing should refit to everything - I can carry suitcases full of coal onto a flight if i really wanted to
18:43:34 <supermop> i cant remember if its original trains or ogfx+
18:43:53 <MNIM> fun fact: during the blockade of berlin in the cold war coal was flown in through the air
18:44:03 <Alberth> oh, some idiot dev changed all strings in the settings window, this is going to take a while :p
18:44:31 <supermop> might be + because the ic 125 cars take on special livery to match the locomotives
18:49:00 <andythenorth> my gut says this idea of 'sand for iron works' might be wrong
18:49:40 <andythenorth> but the gearing down on the metal chain is insane in early games
18:50:00 <andythenorth> 8t ore + 8t wood = 8t metal
18:50:44 <andythenorth> 8t metal = 2.5t ENSP, 2.5t FMSP (with rounding losses or gains for hex maths)
18:51:06 <andythenorth> yes it's insane? or yes you replicated the bug? :)
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18:52:57 <Alberth> sand for iron works is quite a stretch, I agree :)
18:53:25 <andythenorth> the fruit is opengfx+ trains related?
18:55:14 * andythenorth reverts sand at iron works
18:55:28 <Alberth> without the ogfx+trains it has passengers
18:55:42 <andythenorth> opengfx+ trains bug
18:55:44 <Alberth> 2 commits without doing anything ! ;)
18:57:24 <andythenorth> maybe the forge should just be more efficient
18:57:30 <andythenorth> 8t per 8t instead of 5t per 8t
19:09:18 * andythenorth considers increasing production with pax deliveries :P
19:09:43 <andythenorth> can't be done really
19:09:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: could industry tiles produce? I know it's insane and will be abused...but...?
19:10:39 <supermop> i was thinking about oil rigs - production should go down with passengers, as the workers would get too distracted with a ferry load of visitors on the platform
19:11:35 <supermop> sorry if i am distracting you with silly ideas
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19:15:22 * andythenorth wonders what third cargo the Iron Works could accept
19:17:31 <Alberth> it's a difficult question
19:17:49 <Alberth> 2 input cargoes not enough?
19:17:56 <andythenorth> one option is to delete that industry
19:18:01 <andythenorth> I always like that option ;)
19:19:11 <Eddi|zuHause> close the industry after steel mills become available
19:19:32 <andythenorth> that's part of the plan :)
19:20:15 <Alberth> so less useful is not so bad, imho
19:20:26 <andythenorth> option 2: no change
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19:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> just close it, no other changes
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19:26:45 <supermop> there should be a bit of an overlap or transition though
19:27:17 <supermop> i would have said that the iron works is easier to use, at the expense of being more inefficient
19:27:50 <andythenorth> I will (1) make this closure an additional parameter
19:27:53 <supermop> so later in game you are incentivised to use the steel mill as you get more out of it
19:27:59 <andythenorth> (2) check that a steel works exists on the map
19:28:06 <andythenorth> (3) closure will be a random chance, not absolute
19:47:50 <supermop> i wish industry tiles were more like fields
19:49:22 <supermop> so the core of the industry might have a few non essential surrounding tiles that could be built over at high cost
19:52:17 <Alberth> don't you like the challenges that the game throws at you? :)
19:55:49 <andythenorth> there's a spec from frosch for plantable tiles
19:56:11 <frosch123> the first approach failed due to bridges and such :)
19:57:20 <supermop> i do like challenges, but i also like cute little industrial trains driving right up inside the industry
19:57:59 <supermop> so a steel mill could be the same as now, but would buy some extra space around it
19:58:20 <supermop> and if you want to build on those tiles, it costs dearly
19:59:28 <frosch123> you should make a scenario where the whole map is a single steel mill :p
19:59:36 <frosch123> and then transport stuff within it
20:00:13 <frosch123> kind of anti-cidini
20:00:59 <supermop> these as a railtype:
20:01:37 * andythenorth has considered a steel mill grf before :P
20:01:57 <andythenorth> steel industry needs:
20:02:01 <supermop> certainly could be fun
20:02:02 <andythenorth> - coal, coke, charcoal
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20:02:09 <andythenorth> - scrap metal, iron ore
20:02:17 <andythenorth> - limestone, other chemicals
20:02:22 <andythenorth> - casting sand, clay
20:02:51 <andythenorth> it produces molten metal, slag, and foundry waste
20:03:15 <supermop> sand is for a foundry, not the blast furnace
20:03:30 <andythenorth> which are turned into [not sure] - finished metal, slag cement, other products
20:04:03 <andythenorth> pig iron blooms are (were) cast in sand
20:04:20 <andythenorth> a logging grf would feature:
20:04:35 <andythenorth> - tree length logs, sawn logs, pulpwood
20:04:50 <andythenorth> - stone, sand (roadbuilding)
20:05:06 <andythenorth> - fuel, engineering supplies
20:05:40 <andythenorth> - silviculture supplies (seeds, fertiliiser)
20:05:48 <supermop> could Firs have a logging camp as a precursor to the planted forest?
20:05:59 <andythenorth> - paper, sawn timber, board, wood chip fuel
20:06:14 <andythenorth> supermop: would it use the 'cut trees' mechanic?
20:06:17 <supermop> ie small cheap site that destroys nearby trees
20:06:32 <andythenorth> no, I dislike the current implementation of that mechanic
20:06:40 <supermop> so you could get accidentally clear cut industrial england
20:06:48 <andythenorth> I think frosch123 has a spec change that would fix it iirc
20:07:06 <andythenorth> can't find the link :P
20:07:38 <supermop> i think the idea of risking over exploitation is interesting
20:08:22 <supermop> that or if you destroy trees as you build a railway, have them show up as production at a forest or logging camp if one is nearby
20:09:08 <supermop> and you could exploit the tree cheat doubly with it
20:09:29 <supermop> build camp near town, cut all of town's trees, replant, repeat
20:09:45 <supermop> boost production will keeping rating steady
20:10:16 <andythenorth> UKRS 2 is so dense
20:10:21 <andythenorth> I need a slower game :P
20:11:14 <supermop> something like original trains with just a few more
20:12:13 <supermop> also original style train sets for japan, alpine, continent
20:13:05 <supermop> i never play with the original american trains
20:13:22 <supermop> do arctic and tropic have the same vehicles?
20:14:46 <supermop> hmm still no one has replied in my thread
20:18:06 <supermop> andythenorth: why don't you also allow heqs trams to work on narrow/minimum gauge if present, sort of like the mog
20:18:46 <andythenorth> never thought of that
20:22:07 <supermop> could create nice looking dock railways then
20:41:18 <supermop> can someone please take a look at the grf I am having trouble with?
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21:09:46 <Someus> I just can`t figure out that signal thing
21:33:49 <Someus> Is there offline openttd tutorial?
21:34:13 <Someus> Or is there a way to convert wiki to offline content?
21:37:07 <supermop> you could print out the pages i guess
21:37:39 <Someus> Oh do you mean File > Print?
21:38:01 <supermop> might waste a lot of ink and paper, or you could print to pdf
21:38:35 <Someus> Well i have no option to print to pdf :/
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21:41:54 <swissfan91> Does anyone have a sprite template for station tiles?
21:42:39 <supermop> no, would have helped me
21:43:19 <swissfan91> what set did you need it for?
21:44:07 <supermop> well mlss is a station set
21:44:19 <supermop> i just sort of made it up
21:44:32 <swissfan91> ah, I see. Did you code that set too?
21:44:45 <supermop> yeah, but i barely knew how
21:44:54 <supermop> i really need a coding partner
21:45:34 <swissfan91> it seems to be coded ok.
21:45:35 <supermop> the first iterations were done just with one huge pcx file
21:46:09 <supermop> later i used a separate small png for each tile type
21:47:47 <swissfan91> Do you have any time for coding other projects atm? :P
21:49:25 <supermop> no time to code or draw my own even
21:49:47 <supermop> plus its almost summer, and summer in new york is sort of magical
21:50:21 <swissfan91> ah, well it's worth asking!
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21:52:22 <supermop> i think you'd want someone with a basic understanding of code - for me it's like groping around in the dark
21:52:53 <supermop> Someus: everyone is happier, tons of free stuff going on, drinking beers on rooftops
21:53:02 <supermop> take the subway to the beach
21:53:13 <supermop> riding bikes all over
21:53:32 <Someus> What do you mean by tons of reen stuff?
21:54:24 <supermop> staying in your 300 square foot brick apartment with no air conditioning to work on a computer takes a lower priority
21:54:40 <supermop> free concerts, events, lectures, film screenings
21:54:48 <supermop> just hanging out in parks
21:56:33 <Someus> Listen, can i get back money when destroing my things in openttd?
21:57:53 <supermop> and only for the scrap value of the rail
21:59:24 <Someus> Can you tell me - is it important to build depo often?
21:59:59 <supermop> do you play with breakdowns on?
22:07:40 <Someus> How can i remove signal?
22:09:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Someus: press "R"
22:16:21 <Someus> Is it enough with one Depo?
22:17:19 <supermop> usually, unless trains need to service along the route
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22:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Someus: when you have breakdowns enabled (difficulty settings), you should have each train pass next to a depot on their usual journeys. if you have them disabled, it won't really matter, unless you want to autoreplace
22:21:50 <swissfan91> can anyone think of any platforms that would be a 'must' for a Swiss Station set?
22:23:42 <Eddi|zuHause> swissfan91: usually you'd want some generic platforms, and various non-track station buildings to go with them
22:25:04 <swissfan91> My first priority are low-level platforms. I think OTTD could do with some of them.
22:25:31 <supermop> just draw high and low, then draw other stuff on top of those
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22:27:53 <swissfan91> WRT that picture - would it be possible to draw a grey catenary girder above the island platform to create the illusion of a double catenary pylon of that nature?
22:29:11 <supermop> imagine the roof of the default station
22:29:20 <swissfan91> hmmmm - that's something to think about.
22:29:38 <supermop> just draw that part to look like a gantry
22:31:15 *** Hazzard_ is now known as Hazzard
23:13:33 <Someus> I don`t get that signal mechanic :/
23:16:43 <Someus> what signals are mostly used?
23:18:23 <planetmaker> that's a question like "what marmelade is eaten most" :-)
23:18:29 <planetmaker> Depends on what you need and want
23:20:21 <Someus> Your wiki states: Fortunately, two of these six signal types can be used over 95% of the time
23:25:11 <xiong> Someus, Ignore the first four signal types. You need standard path signals almost all of the time and one-way path in a few cases.
23:26:49 <xiong> The first four signal types are antecedent and playing styles developed around them before path-based signaling was available. Therefore you will run into a certain number of old guards: the same people who insist on vinyl records and vacuum-tube amplifiers.
23:27:32 <xiong> Also, in some situations, it hardly matters which kind of signal you use. But there are enough other cases that you need to figure it out.
23:28:09 <xiong> Ah, if you haven't already noticed, there are only six types, functionally. The other six are the same, but with a semaphore visual. That's the only difference.
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23:46:16 <xiong> Well, I guess that was either insufficient or excessive.
continue to next day ⏵
