IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-04-24
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00:37:01 <Rhamphoryncus> PierreW: "two-way" path signals
00:38:19 <Rhamphoryncus> A train can only wait (stop) from one direction, but they can go through from the other direction if necessary
00:39:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Note though that the 3-track layout doesn't work very well
01:17:33 <Skau1> all my trains got stuck
01:17:41 <Skau1> i must have done somethign really wrong
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01:37:34 <Rhamphoryncus> Deadlock-resistance is a special area of design
01:47:26 <Skau1> took me 30 minutes just to get the trains loose again..
01:52:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Was it a single point deadlocked which caused the backlog? Or were there multiple?
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02:05:30 <Skau1> my system cant handle that many trains
02:05:33 <Skau1> so everything just stopped
02:06:18 <Skau1> i need to rebuild my main station i guess
02:06:38 <Skau1> if i can untangle this shit again
02:08:58 <Rhamphoryncus> A good stopgap is to pick a spot waiting to enter a station, build a depot, then tell some of the trains to go to the depot
02:10:49 <Rhamphoryncus> For station design, if it's a secondary that's deadlock that means all the "full load" trains arrived at once, filling the platforms and then blocking the station entrance, preventing any of the trains that feed that industry from dropping off
02:12:40 <Rhamphoryncus> That you avoid by having lots of extra space for the full load trains. Having two distinct stations with different lines in can work, or using a WP so they approach from a different way and can't access every platform (and thus completely block it). Note that in both cases the line in is serving as a waiting bay
02:13:57 <Rhamphoryncus> Overflow depots are sometimes used too, but they have finicky design requirements, otherwise they can be unused, overused (causing the whole line to drop to depot speed), or themselves deadlock
02:15:43 <Skau1> im going to make it simple
02:15:57 <Skau1> dragging a huuuge fucking bomb over my station
02:16:05 <Skau1> then rebuild every single shit in there
02:16:42 <Rhamphoryncus> If you post a before pic on imgur I'll critique it for you
02:17:22 <Skau1> thats just a big mess.. i was attempting to just fix a few things before i upgraded to maglev
02:17:26 <Rhamphoryncus> ctrl-s for a screenshot
02:17:31 <Skau1> but i must have screwed something up
02:17:40 <Skau1> but either way, i dont think i can fit this many trains on it any way
02:18:05 <Skau1> i wish i could remove the industries around here
02:18:10 <Skau1> they are just in the way
02:19:56 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, they can be an issue
02:20:16 <Rhamphoryncus> I often cheat to remove them, but working around them can be half the fun
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02:22:24 <Skau1> just hoping they will dissapear
02:23:01 <Rhamphoryncus> Sometimes works, but can take a veeeeerry long time
02:38:37 <Skau1> only one industry per town
02:41:37 <Skau1> fuck it, i need to atleast get my oil farming started
02:41:50 <Skau1> i need to get some income before i am bankrupt
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05:19:28 <Tintinfan> can sombody help :/
05:21:11 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Don't ask to ask, just ask
05:21:55 <Tintinfan> right well I was wondering why dedicated server kept reverting back to 1.2.0-RC4
05:22:13 <Tintinfan> when even after ive gone through and changed .cfg's and all :/
05:22:40 <planetmaker> what does the cfg have to do with the binary version?
05:23:06 <planetmaker> or you mean generally the servers out there?
05:23:09 <Tintinfan> im not sure, but there was a version thingy in there.
05:24:19 <planetmaker> sorry, but that sounds to me like "why does firefox start when I switched to chrome" to me
05:24:42 <Rubidium> that version is there for debug purposes; we often get/ask for configuration files in bug reports and the bug reporters aren't as concise/correct about the version they use, so we added it to the configuration file (which always overwrites the version)
05:24:43 <planetmaker> my answer would be "you start the wrong programme".
05:25:14 <planetmaker> I didn't remember the version being there, Rubidium
05:27:00 <planetmaker> in any case, there's no need to adjust the version info in the cfg, Tintinfan
05:27:09 <planetmaker> in fact doing so won't change anything
05:30:08 * Tintinfan decideds to install it again in a new folder
05:39:41 <Tintinfan> still not working *rant*
05:42:03 <planetmaker> you meanwhilte...
05:51:28 <peter1138> it's good when people know what they're doing
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08:54:47 <krinn> 15 companies max, but are they range only 0-14 ?
08:55:19 <TinoDidriksen> 0-14 inclusive = 15
08:59:49 <Eddi|zuHause> range 0-15 would be 16 companies
09:00:03 <krinn> the question is not how to count :)
09:00:09 <Eddi|zuHause> but we need one for "no owner"
09:00:16 <krinn> but if companyID is store in a bit
09:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> [and occasionally also for "town owner"]
09:02:03 <krinn> so could a companyID > 15 exist ?
09:02:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i think OWNER_TOWN is 16
09:03:42 * CornishPasty sets his companyid to 16
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09:09:47 <CornishPasty> Why does the OpenTTD dedicated server require a graphics set?
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09:18:04 <krinn> CornishPasty, maybe because openttd knows 0 cars, and the graphics set not only gave it the graphics for the cars, but the cars themselves, the objects, with their properties... How about running a game with 0 objects?
09:19:12 <krinn> CornishPasty, because i'm not sure default objects exists anymore
09:19:29 <CornishPasty> What's the point of that though? Why can't there be a graphics set that has no graphics, that's default part of openttd
09:22:17 <krinn> because your client must share the same newgrf, so if your server run a newgrf that define objects without graphics, it will run, but your client will have 0 graphics too, i'm not sure you will have a lot of clients in these conditions
09:23:28 <CornishPasty> Hmm... Kinda stupid
09:23:37 <CornishPasty> I hope it at least doesn't load the graphics in
09:23:48 <CornishPasty> Like sourceds doesn't load textures, only polys
09:28:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no such things as "textures and polys"
09:33:25 <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: There are
09:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: this is NOT a 3D game
09:34:30 <CornishPasty> Eddi|zuHause: I was talking about sourceds
09:34:56 <CornishPasty> Or, I suppose it should be called, srcds
09:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. and the sources know nothing about "textures and polys"
09:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so what are you trying to say?
09:36:31 <TinoDidriksen> Does it matter? OpenTTD graphics aren't exactly heavy. If the server loads them, so what...
09:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: making exceptions around all sorts of stuff will make the code slower than just handling the graphics
09:36:52 <CornishPasty> It doesn't really matter from a server perspective, but it's still just wasted effort
09:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: only the output of the graphics buffer is skipped
09:37:23 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: and the libraries are not compiled in
09:37:56 <CornishPasty> How can libraries not be compiled in when it's just a command line flag?
09:38:03 <CornishPasty> Unless it compiles itself at launch?
09:38:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, no. in that case, only no window is created
09:39:14 <CornishPasty> So if the DS can render graphics etc, can it render them to a file, say, for a screenshot?
09:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> you have to change the blitter, though
09:43:26 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a "null" blitter, that really does (almost) nothing, and there's other blitters that handle the sprites internally
10:00:32 <Ammler> opengfx has a "nogfx" branch
10:00:50 <Ammler> but since it does not really matter, we never caredabout it
10:04:01 <Ammler> maybe with adding 32bpp to opengfx, it could make sense again to make a nogfx baseset
10:05:34 <Ammler> for having a smaller package
10:06:39 <Ammler> rather than maintain a 8bpp and 32bpp version, imo
10:07:05 <peter1138> iirc all grfs need to contain 8bpp normal zoom sprites
10:08:30 <Ammler> it also kept the gui sprites, so you were still able t use the menu
10:09:46 <peter1138> yeah but i assume you were using the old container format, and just included empty 1x1 or something sprites
10:10:52 <Ammler> hmm, s/works/worked/ then
10:12:52 <krinn> but as now all newGRF are record and cannot be change, there's no more a way to have a game running opengfx-nogfx and clients opengfx-gfx newGRF no ?
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10:17:54 <peter1138> opengfx is a grf, not a newgrf
10:18:15 <peter1138> basesets can be changed with no ill effect
10:26:49 <Eddi|zuHause> container version 2 is supposed to support both 32bpp and 8bpp versions of the same grf
10:26:52 <krinn> GSSignList and GSSign.GetOwner doesn't make sense, anyone to clear it? If GSSignList return the list of sign create by the GS, then GSSign.GetOwner could only be the GS
10:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but i guess changing the action14 is not supported in those cases
10:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> so e.g. DOS and Windows versions can't be unified
10:28:27 <peter1138> there's no reason for dos/windows versions
10:28:31 <krinn> and if i need to GSCompanyMode to a companyID to read its sign, the GSSign.GetOwner is never use as i could just record the company orwner i have switch too
10:29:44 <krinn> GSSignList: Create a list of signs your company has created <- it would make sense if GSSignList return all tiles create by all companies to need to GSSign.GetOwner func
10:31:00 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: maybe if TTDPatch gained container version 2 support :)
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11:36:05 <Iviv> I'd like to thank whoever wrote the instructions on compiling openttd through MinGW, they're very well writen
11:43:42 <Iviv> Is there anyone here who knows about compiling with MinGW?
11:43:53 <Iviv> or perhaps about compiling in general
11:44:05 <zxbiohazardzx> what you need to know about it?:P
11:44:39 <zxbiohazardzx> there is a hint on the forums on how to apply a patch before compiling
11:44:55 <Iviv> Ooh, there is? Where is this hint located?
11:45:43 <zxbiohazardzx> commands presented there are mingw afaik so
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11:47:53 <Iviv> oh. When compiling liblzo2 apparently my compiler failed the ACC conformance test. Does this matter?
11:48:16 <zxbiohazardzx> not really sure, not that much into it
11:49:54 <Iviv> Oh. Ran the command again and it passed the test this time
11:50:43 <Iviv> ah well, go figure. Onwards!
12:04:20 <Iviv> Do you know about libicu? It says that it handles the natural sorting of lists. What does that actually mean? XD
12:04:59 <Iviv> I don't need the right-to-left scripts, its just that sorting line which has me confused
12:06:44 <CornishPasty> Iviv: natural list sorting, a1, a2, a3, a7, a8, a10. Non-natural a1, a10, a2, a3, a7, a8
12:07:35 <Iviv> Aah, thanks! How often does that come up in OpenTTD? Its not something I've noticed in any lists, though equally I've not ever looked out for it specifically
12:08:21 <Skau1> is there a admincommand that can be used to enable the possibility to remove industries?
12:08:27 <CornishPasty> I think it helps with automatically numbered trains, i.e. Train 1, Train 2, etc.
12:08:35 <CornishPasty> Not entirely sure though
12:08:44 <Iviv> Ah, good point. Better do that then
12:09:05 <krinn> Iviv, a lot as all AI/GS scripts need it too
12:11:39 <Skau1> or any way it can be enabled after a server is started
12:31:18 <Iviv> Me again. Got all the other things downloaded and compiled now, just starting on the openttd part now. I require a certain build, which I've found on the vcs.openttd.org site. However, the development FAQ recommends using Mercurial or Git to download them as its easier to patch
12:34:48 <Iviv> Is it possible to use Mercurial or Git to get a specific older revision, since the patch apparently only works for a certain revision
12:42:42 <Iviv> Awesome. Would I do it through mingw?
12:47:29 <Skau1> should i take that as a no? :P
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13:08:03 <zxbiohazardzx> i have a savegame that uses a newgrf (dutchtramset) and i have that grf (or a different one) in my folder
13:08:08 <zxbiohazardzx> the grfID is exactly the same
13:08:16 <zxbiohazardzx> yet OTTD wont recognise it as the same GRF
13:08:22 <zxbiohazardzx> is the checksum that important?
13:09:16 <zxbiohazardzx> GRF ID in savegame: FBFB0102 MD5: BD9EA816D516F66CBE5C793BEF8DBE54
13:10:07 <zxbiohazardzx> GRFID in map: FBFB0102 MD5: 803D38F242F016C4A8212FA05C0F9B7E
13:15:51 <zxbiohazardzx> any clue why it wont see its the same set?
13:17:26 <krinn> did you try the get the missing newgrf option?
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13:17:55 <zxbiohazardzx> and i even checked the "usual" GRF sources i used, like ottdcoop etc
13:18:07 <zxbiohazardzx> but i just cant find the matching version for the dutchtramset
13:18:14 <zxbiohazardzx> i got the RC1 from banana's
13:18:19 <zxbiohazardzx> its GRFID is the same
13:18:45 <zxbiohazardzx> and the game wont detect it as being the same GRF or a "similar/updated version was used" (yellow)
13:19:19 <zxbiohazardzx> so i have to hunt for r87
13:19:38 <krinn> well, it seems, good hunt :p
13:19:45 <zxbiohazardzx> hate that r26 is not compatible/overwriting it
13:19:54 <zxbiohazardzx> anyone have a clue why it wont overwrite if they are same?
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13:20:07 <krinn> considering the strange list that newGRF have, it will happen again
13:20:36 <zxbiohazardzx> yeah but again the question is why
13:20:45 <zxbiohazardzx> is it because of the DTS coding/coders?
13:21:17 <krinn> something to ask to the newgrf authors
13:22:41 <zxbiohazardzx> Revisie 87:fc83c3a6c1e8
13:22:49 <zxbiohazardzx> Gerelateerde issues
13:22:49 <zxbiohazardzx> Feature #2904: Make compatible with RC
13:26:31 <zxbiohazardzx> anyway ill poke foobar about it
13:27:40 <zxbiohazardzx> meh i got the file from a friend, huzzay for Romazoon :)
13:28:42 <krinn> google record md5 of file too, so the name+md5 could have answer it maybe
13:29:16 <zxbiohazardzx> nah i got them from Romazoon, so i can at least play again :)
13:29:24 <zxbiohazardzx> cincinidi game :)
13:29:31 <zxbiohazardzx> the old one we played over the network
13:29:35 <zxbiohazardzx> quite well played map :)
13:34:05 <Iviv> Hmm, an apparent issue with the mingw32 install guide, assuming I've not some something wrong. It doesn't mention installing lzma, and openttd complains when I ./configure it
13:35:10 <Iviv> Warning: lzma was not detected or disabled
13:35:37 <Iviv> warning: openTTD doesn't require lzma, but it does mean that many features, etc etc
13:37:35 <Iviv> I thought that might be the case, but I tried installing that again but no change
13:39:58 <lugo> well, "Users of LZMA Utils should move to XZ Utils" ;)
13:46:09 <TWerkhoven[l]> afaik theres a configure option allowing you to turn off the lzma dependancy
13:46:19 <TWerkhoven[l]> had to do that when i configured linux sources
13:47:05 <Iviv> Also, I don't know if it matters ( I don't think so), but I'm trying to compile a version that was patched in linux. That wouldn't matter, would it?
13:48:24 <Iviv> Me and a friend run a server, we wanted to add in the daylength patch. He compiled the version for the server fine, but he has no idea about compiling for windows, but sent me the patched source code, which I'm trying to compile in mingw
13:52:04 <Iviv> I'll try compiling the 5.0.2 version of xz instead. Do I need to 'uninstall' the 5.0.3 version I currently have?
13:52:44 <lugo> have you tried installing the sole lzma package?
13:53:36 <Iviv> will give that a go, should I stull use ./configure --enable-static --disable-threads when compiling?
13:53:42 <lugo> can't be bad to have both nstalled i guess
13:54:13 <Iviv> XD Well, I can't see anything bad happening if I don't
13:55:08 <krinn> app-arch/xz-utils-5.0.3 (/usr/lib/liblzma.so.5.0.3)
13:56:17 <krinn> drop lzma, and use xz instead
13:56:37 <krinn> then you misconfigure your build
13:56:38 <Iviv> but for some reason when I try to compile openTTD it says I don't
13:57:12 <krinn> because it might search somewhere and your is install somewhere else, something you could tell the configure
13:58:30 <krinn> read your configure.log to see why
13:59:39 <Iviv> checking liblzma... not found
13:59:41 <Iviv> WARNING: lzma was not detected or disabled
13:59:43 <Iviv> WARNING: OpenTTD doesn't require lzma, but it does mean that many features
13:59:45 <Iviv> WARNING: (like loading most savegames/scenarios and joining most servers)
13:59:47 <Iviv> WARNING: will be disabled.
13:59:49 <Iviv> If you want to compile without lzma use --without-lzma as parameter
13:59:57 <Iviv> That's the end of the config.log in my openttd folder
14:01:48 <krinn> pkg-config liblzma --modversion
14:01:56 <krinn> if you get no answer, that's your problem
14:03:19 <Iviv> No package 'liblzma' found
14:04:44 <Iviv> Makes sense. Though why isn't it installing? I wish I knew more on the subject, but I followed the steps on the wiki, wget and unzipping gettext and glib
14:06:36 <krinn> pkg-config lookout for liblzma.pc file
14:08:41 <Skau1> what is the point with first exit, then combo on the main track?
14:09:26 <CornishPasty> I never understood priorities :P
14:09:58 <Iviv> krinn, liblzma.pc exists in c:\minGW\lib and c:\minGW\msys\1.0\home\Iviv\xz-5.0.3\src
14:10:52 <Iviv> *sorry, in C:\MinGW\lib\pkgconfig
14:13:10 <krinn> well, try setup the PKG_CONFIG_PATH=c:\minGW\lib
14:18:21 <Iviv> Sorry, but how do I do that? Do I just run: 'make install pkg_config_path=/usr/local/lib'
14:18:57 <Skau1> ive built my station all the way out to a oilrig in the water, but the production never seems to increase
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14:19:05 <Skau1> even though transport rate is at 100%
14:19:24 <krinn> i don't know for windows, in linux PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/usr/local/lib make install
14:25:34 <Iviv> Aha, done it. had to run: $ export PKG_CONFIG_PATH=/c/mingw/lib/pkgconfig
14:28:01 <Iviv> getoptdata.o: file not recognized: File format not recognized
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14:30:39 <krinn> do "file" if it work, then "file pathtobadfileformat"
14:31:29 <krinn> else, well, get linux, free & simpler :)
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14:54:20 <Rubidium> Skau1: because high transport rates increase the chance of increasing production rates
14:54:48 <Skau1> yes, but the production rate never increases
14:55:13 <Rubidium> Skau1: that's not statistically impossible
14:56:12 <Skau1> it increases sometimes.. but its been like that for hours and hourse without getting higher than 100k liters
14:57:11 <Skau1> one of my rigs have about 2 million per month
15:10:25 <Skau1> How does refitting work?
15:10:40 <Skau1> do i need to have the carts i want to use in the depot ?
15:11:17 <Skau1> nvm.. i just create two diffrent kind of trains to deliver goods / get valubles
15:32:37 <Skau1> in progress, but starting to look better now
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16:04:37 <Iviv> Hi! How do I get newgrf's working on a linux dedicated server. I can't use any GUI stuff for it unfortunately
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16:06:55 <frosch123> set up everything with the gui, then copy over the necessary parts of ~/.openttd.cfg
16:07:20 <frosch123> *gui on another machine
16:07:24 <Iviv> Can I set it up with a windows gui?
16:07:39 <frosch123> might replace \ with / in paths maybe
16:08:03 <Iviv> Don't the newgrfs all go into the <user>\documents folder though? Or are they also copied to the actual install folder when enabled?
16:08:34 <frosch123> yes, you need to copy the content of that openttd folder to ~/.openttd
16:09:17 <Iviv> Rightyo, I'll give that a go. Thanks!
16:10:22 <Iviv> And thanks a ton for all your help earlier krinn
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16:53:42 <CaveJohnson> ${APPV_EXTRA} appears wherever the version does
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16:57:43 <andythenorth> seems my 'improved' cement plant has bombed
16:59:21 <andythenorth> anybody want to write an improved placement algorithm for town industries?
16:59:42 <andythenorth> - be NML, but encapsulated in one or more reusable CPP macros
17:00:04 <andythenorth> - place industries near the edge of a town, for any size town
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17:21:56 <andythenorth> what causes you to buy Lego trains (or not)?
17:22:05 <andythenorth> [I started a thread on a Lego forum]
17:22:45 <Belugas> 1) toys are for grown ups
17:23:36 <andythenorth> AFOLS (Adult Fans of Lego) are funny
17:23:49 <andythenorth> they often lack any insight into children, or play :P
17:24:08 <Belugas> nothing better than having a kid to restart the plaeasure thogh!@
17:24:17 <andythenorth> it's all about...realism for afols :)
17:26:10 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24175 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r24171): Make sure to select a object class with visible objects when opening the object GUI.
17:27:54 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24176 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix (r21772): The object GUI did not draw objects when all objects of a class are disabled.
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17:36:59 <zxbiohazardzx> apart from guessing, is there a way to check mapsize ?
17:37:29 <zxbiohazardzx> i mean the diff between 2052 and 4098 is guessing and 4k over 8k is something i dont want to count tiles for either
17:38:24 <zxbiohazardzx> but nvm i used a rail to determine it XD
17:40:28 <TWerkhoven[l]> query tool at bottom corner
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17:42:48 <TWerkhoven[l]> corner of the map that is
17:47:37 <zxbiohazardzx> im gonna try to beat cindini map creators
17:47:40 <zxbiohazardzx> and make my own map :P
17:47:51 <zxbiohazardzx> im insane enough for it :P
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17:50:57 <Skau1> what decides the valubles production rate ?
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17:55:45 <Alberth> random, like all other rates, but please read the game mechanics wiki page
17:56:29 <Skau1> i did, but couldnt see any specifics about valuables..but thanks
18:01:35 <Skau1> i thought valuables was the best thing to earn cash with?
18:01:51 <Skau1> fully loaded train almost across the whole map gave me only 7mill
18:08:11 <Eddi|zuHause> only if you can deliver it fast.
18:08:57 <Eddi|zuHause> the total number of days in transit matters
18:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> 30 tiles in 10 days and 60 tiles in 20 days don't pay linearly
18:13:20 <Skau1> 30 tiles in 10 days pay better ?
18:16:39 <Skau1> 2-3 days ago.. i never thought i would ever be patient enough to play a game like this
18:16:49 <Skau1> ive almost been playing it straight since i tried it first time
18:17:23 <Alberth> valuables are nothing special, they are just another cargo
18:18:51 <Alberth> there is a graph with cargo payments, which may be of interest to you
18:19:04 <Skau1> Alberth: Wiki says it is the most paid cargo
18:19:14 <Markk> I discussed with my gf if it was danish or norwegian.
18:19:31 <Markk> But I guess it's norwegian now. :)
18:19:57 <Skau1> if what was danish or norwegian?
18:21:05 <Markk> Ah, now I'm with you. :)
18:21:34 <Markk> But I saw "AS", and from what I know it's AS in both Noreg and Denmark.
18:21:36 <frosch123> just look at the currency :p
18:22:20 <Markk> We have kronor in Denmark, Sweden and Norway, mate.
18:22:22 <Skau1> Norway, Sweden and Denmark
18:22:43 <Markk> And we'll have monarcs.
18:23:08 <frosch123> what? hmm, i think only of øre when thinking of denmark
18:23:24 <Markk> Öre is like cents in USD and Euro.
18:23:46 <Skau1> AksjeSelskap .. Limited Company
18:23:48 <Markk> 100 öre/øre is 1 krona.
18:24:10 <frosch123> yeah, in now realize that...
18:24:21 <Skau1> we dont have 50 norwegian øre anymore
18:24:23 <frosch123> maybe it is because everything is more expensive in norway
18:24:36 <frosch123> i think i never had norwegian öre
18:24:40 <michi_cc> Skau1: Valuables might be what pays the most for a short, fast hop relatively seen, but generally coal makes the most profit because it loses less over time, so it is ideal for cross-map transport.
18:24:41 <Skau1> you still have 10 Kr bills? :P
18:24:44 <frosch123> while i remember having 50 danish öre
18:25:22 <frosch123> currently i only have rouble
18:25:26 <Markk> We removed 50 öre in Sweden in October 2010, and then I moved to Ireland (whom used Euro).
18:25:50 <frosch123> 10 rouble in paper from 1997, and 10 rouble in metal from 2008 :p
18:26:04 <Skau1> Sweden mostly accept Euros too, right?
18:27:23 <Markk> Some places, yes, but mostly tourist shops and such.
18:27:34 <Markk> And then you'll get the change in kronor.
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18:40:47 <andythenorth> anyone got a Simuscape login?
18:45:31 <Alberth> they are all afraid to admit ownership :p
18:45:48 <andythenorth> was a genuine question :)
18:47:07 <Alberth> I am not surprised tbh, I never make accounts unless absolutely necessary, and a few newgrfs are not necessary enough for me
18:47:18 <Alberth> I guess there are more people like that
18:48:31 <Alberth> hmm, 4 days already, and no reply on my nml patch
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18:49:06 <DorpsGek> frosch123: yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 15 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
18:49:12 <DorpsGek> frosch123: hirundo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 3 days, 5 hours, 50 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <Hirundo> Noah's Ark 2.0 ?
18:49:31 <frosch123> Alberth: does not sound so promising :s
18:49:46 <Alberth> they are on a holiday together, apparently :p
18:50:02 <Chris_Booth> by the looks of it :P
18:50:15 <frosch123> yeah, they were locked into a room to code nml non-stop
18:50:36 <frosch123> there will be a 500 revision push afterwards
18:52:08 <andythenorth> maybe they are working on migrating newgrf to xml
18:52:12 <V453000> I hope they noticed my nml error then :)
18:52:33 <andythenorth> the nice thing about nml is that 'other people' can fix small bugs
18:52:48 <andythenorth> I don't think I could fix a parser or tree bug :P
18:53:08 <Alberth> V453000: to be safe, find a few more :p
18:54:40 <andythenorth> see, the error even tells us where to look :)
18:54:56 * andythenorth is not going to fix it though :P
18:55:05 * andythenorth -> pub, work to do
18:55:24 <V453000> could you please try sometime later? :)
18:55:35 <andythenorth> see if Alberth will ;)
18:55:36 <andythenorth> or maybe Eddi|zuHause
18:55:46 <andythenorth> python is easy for real developers
18:56:27 <Eddi|zuHause> "easy" is awfully close to "boring", though
18:56:42 <andythenorth> you should see the python I am unpicking :P
18:56:45 <andythenorth> I wrote it in 2007
18:56:59 <DorpsGek> FLHerne: Yexo was last seen in #openttd 4 weeks, 2 days, 2 hours, 23 minutes, and 3 seconds ago: <Yexo> ^^ that rule is too general and not always applicable
18:57:13 <frosch123> V453000: i think the error means that nml is out of action2 ids
18:57:15 <andythenorth> FLHerne: that's been done, silly billy
18:57:20 <frosch123> which means your grf is too complex :p
18:57:21 <Alberth> V453000: free_action2_ids.pop() <-- it looks like you run out of free action2 ids
18:57:34 <andythenorth> it's as though I deliberately intended to make this old code as silly as possible :P
18:57:34 <frosch123> try shuffling around some switches
18:57:34 <V453000> sooo ... I am completely and utterly screwed? :D
18:57:46 <andythenorth> V453000: your set is big?
18:57:49 <frosch123> put switches referencing each other after each other
18:58:20 <andythenorth> you have one massive block of switches shared by vehicles?
18:58:27 <andythenorth> remember the god object pattern I mentioned? ;)
18:58:56 <andythenorth> there's no need to run out
18:59:23 <V453000> I know but trying to pick python and the stuff you refered to would take me about 10 years to absorb
18:59:24 <andythenorth> I once thought I was running out, then someone (pikka) pointed out I was being stupid :P
18:59:45 <andythenorth> V453000: you don't *need* templating to save on switch IDs
18:59:47 <andythenorth> it's just easier
19:00:12 <V453000> if I get the errors I am getting it seems like i Might :p
19:00:25 <andythenorth> are all your switches at the top of your nml?
19:00:37 <andythenorth> [might make no difference]
19:01:14 <andythenorth> I'm not sure how nml compiles them, but it might help
19:01:18 <andythenorth> but I'm just guessing
19:01:32 <andythenorth> honestly though, this is a code smell :)
19:01:36 <andythenorth> it doesn't smell great :)
19:01:47 <V453000> well 12k lines of mess
19:02:09 <andythenorth> if I have time later this week - and you remind me - I'll have a look
19:02:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause has about 1 million LOC for CETS, but doesn't run out
19:03:00 <andythenorth> so it's solvable ;)
19:03:23 <V453000> that is what I thought too :D
19:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, CETS is cheating :p
19:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it's much closer to 2k loc
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19:06:05 <V453000> who is going to draw that? :D
19:06:16 <V453000> I have like 100 and it took me a year almost
19:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> loc = Lines of Code
19:06:57 <V453000> well there still is like 600 trains isnt it
19:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm working on it :)
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19:12:15 <Alberth> it is mostly passed already
19:12:34 <DNAGoa> okay ... i think is just startet :P
19:13:21 <V453000> hm I moved all switches to the top of the code and it shouts that some spriteset is undefined ... does it mean I need to define spritesets beforehand?
19:14:27 <V453000> oh, spritegroup not spriteset
19:14:41 <DNAGoa> Alberth where are you living?
19:16:40 <Alberth> mostly at home, at work, or in-between
19:16:47 <V453000> hm so I moved all spritegroup definitions to the front of the code, after them are all switch definitions, and after that the rest ... same error
19:16:54 <V453000> I guess I will try to kill a few pointless switches
19:17:14 <DNAGoa> Alberth hmm like me, right now i am at home, but people ask me if i live in the office
19:17:18 <Alberth> you can sell switches too :)
19:17:27 <V453000> if anyone will buy them :D
19:18:15 <Lg|Baxxster> Why did it just cost my train 1mill NOK to drop off cargo at my regular cargo area? :o
19:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: spritesets must be defined before the switches that uses them. and you want to have as little new defintions between the spriteset/switch and the last place it is used
19:19:09 <Lg|Baxxster> Nono, it's not. Some trains actually get 3-4 mill income, but there as a couple of trains that actually COST 1 mill
19:19:10 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: spritesets seem to work after switches, spritegroups dont
19:19:48 <V453000> so I should make a spriteset definition -> spritegroup definition -> use it in switch
19:19:51 <V453000> as close together as possible
19:20:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24177 /trunk/src/table/town_land.h: -Fix (r0) [FS#5148]: The arctic "shops and offices" used the "church" sprite in one of its four views.
19:20:16 <V453000> that will be insane :D
19:20:41 <V453000> I will kill my wonderful idea of a central train-stat switch first ... that is quite something too probably
19:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> it's how CETS does it.
19:20:57 <V453000> I just did it the other way around so far
19:21:04 <V453000> define all similar things in one place
19:21:12 <Eddi|zuHause> basically that means you have all spritesets and switches for one vehicle together. and then all the spritesets and switches for the next vehicle
19:21:29 <V453000> okay ... I will try, thank you
19:21:44 <Alberth> Lg|Baxxster: may happen in feeder systems
19:22:12 <Lg|Baxxster> What would that mean in OpenTTD-world?
19:22:36 <V453000> Eddi|zuHause: should I also define the vehicle item after the switch? Or can I make those in one long block?
19:22:44 <V453000> I guess defining after the switch is better eh
19:23:01 <frosch123> what? no "whooo! r0!" :(
19:23:14 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: the graphics block, yes. the properties block, doesn't matter
19:23:57 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: it's only marginally worse than r1 :p
19:24:02 <Alberth> Lg|Baxxster: there is a separate page about negative income
19:24:06 <V453000> well this is going to be crazy
19:24:30 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: make a script that does the reordering for you :p
19:24:50 <Lg|Baxxster> Ok, but yes. Then it's a feeder system. Now I just have to figure out if it's a good thing to relay everything through my main goods-station or just route it directly
19:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: if you're insane enough, you can patch nml to optimize it
19:25:03 <V453000> I will rather do it by hand probably
19:29:06 <Lg|Baxxster> Ok, I'll have to fix that system, then :P
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19:47:15 <frosch123> why are newgrf authors so stupid?
19:47:37 <V453000> is it possible to make notepad able to collapse for example {} blocks like it is able to for example collapse <head></head> tags in html?
19:47:41 <frosch123> it takes over one year that someone complains that the object name is not displayed in the object gui
19:47:44 <V453000> or ... quickly possibel :D
19:47:59 <frosch123> and if i now add it, it looks totally stupid, because every grf duplicated the name into the description
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19:51:52 <drac_boy> what doing tho flaa?
20:01:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r24178 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 4 dirs): -Fix [FS#5110]: The object name from property A was not displayed in the object GUI.
20:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> <V453000> is it possible to make notepad able to collapse for example {} blocks like it is able to for example collapse <head></head> tags in html? <-- usually, that is tied to the method of syntax highlighting used. so pick a language that uses {}, like C++ or java
20:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or, make a dedicated syntax highlighting for nml
20:12:47 <V453000> that is what I feared
20:13:04 <Alberth> usually that is pretty simple
20:13:13 <V453000> so for example a java editor would be able to do that ?
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20:16:12 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: notepad++ should just have a menu option to choose the language
20:17:05 <V453000> yeah I chose XML there
20:17:13 <V453000> ha, Dreamweaver seems to do the thing I need
20:18:55 <Rienzilla> I just found out how addictive openttd is :-)
20:19:34 <Alberth> it is just a temporary disease, lasts a decade or so :p
20:19:45 <Rienzilla> I had an issue with station layouts yesterday
20:20:51 <Rienzilla> I have a roro station, which is pretty much entry signal - branch - combo signal - waiting bay - exit signal - platform
20:22:01 <Rienzilla> However, sometimes a train passes the entry signal, but takes a branch with only red combo or exit signals, blocking the entrance to the entire station until the train on the platform in front of it leaves
20:22:32 <drac_boy> Alberth you're a silly one heh
20:22:41 <supermop> make sure the exit signals are two-way
20:22:58 <Rienzilla> why? The trains leave on the other end of the platform
20:23:20 <drac_boy> Rienzilla thats not the point
20:23:26 <supermop> the train pathfinder sees them differently
20:23:54 <Rienzilla> so the entry signals one way, and the exit signal 2-way?
20:23:57 <supermop> with two way signals, the train prefers whichever is green
20:24:05 <drac_boy> 2-way means train would wait the signal before junction if they can .. 1-way means they "think" noone else would use the junction and plow up to the exit signal even if it wasn't meant to be
20:24:11 <supermop> with one way, it prefers the shortest route path
20:24:12 <drac_boy> not sure how else to word it right now
20:24:28 <Alberth> wouldn't a path signal solve this?
20:24:30 <Rienzilla> well, the thing is, it very rarely goes wrong even though the station is pretty heavily used
20:24:31 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: that hasn't been true for so many years now
20:24:45 <drac_boy> anyone know what I'm trying to explain btw?
20:24:49 <Rienzilla> Alberth: I split the station in two with a path signal
20:24:56 <supermop> Eddi|zuHause: I haven't used exit signals for so many years now
20:25:04 <Rienzilla> so it's not completely blocked now if a train overshoots the entry signal
20:25:17 <Rienzilla> How do I make a screenshot :)
20:25:58 <Alberth> although I normally use an application to grab just a little piece of the window
20:26:28 <Alberth> the idea of a path signal is that it only goes to a platform if there is one free
20:26:56 <Rienzilla> well, a path signal would make a train continue to the next safe stopping point
20:27:10 <Rienzilla> so if there's a red signal before the platform it'll simply continue
20:27:26 <Rienzilla> Maybe a path signal without any other signals would work
20:27:30 <Alberth> so don't put one there, as it is not a safe place to stop :p
20:27:49 <Rienzilla> that seems too easy lol
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20:27:58 <supermop> with path signals, you do not need a signal at the 'rear' of the platform, only the far end
20:28:18 <supermop> and multiple trains can use the station throat at once
20:28:28 <Alberth> Rienzilla: if you want it more difficult, add one but in reverse :)
20:28:41 <drac_boy> supermop don't you sometimes use a one-way pbs signal facing the platform to avoid one train blocking the whole junction just because it was slow to get out of the junction when a path still exists for another train?
20:28:43 <Alberth> with a 2-way path signal
20:29:48 <Rienzilla> I do that on most smaller stations
20:30:15 <Rienzilla> hmm lol, just the path signal is fine indeed it seems :)
20:33:20 <Rienzilla> so with path signals, the entry-exit-combo signals are pretty much useless :)
20:34:25 <Alberth> there are still some advanced uses, I think
20:34:50 <Alberth> but you'll have to ask the openttdcoop gurus for that :)
20:35:57 * drac_boy uses programmable signals a lot mind you heh
20:41:10 <drac_boy> think it might be better if you read the wiki part on it btw
20:41:32 <Alberth> programmable signals is not in plain OpenTTD
20:42:59 <Rienzilla> the thing you download from the website :P
20:43:37 <drac_boy> umm any version can be downloaded from 'website' :p
20:44:51 <FLHerne> Did the forums just crash? Or is that just me? :P
20:45:31 <orudge> no, they've not crashed
20:45:34 <orudge> I'm just doing a spot of maintenance
20:45:43 <orudge> 10-15 minutes I hope at the most
20:46:00 <FLHerne> Oh, OK. I see your notice page now. It was timing out before
20:54:40 <Rienzilla> is it porrsible to somehow make templates for things you build often?
20:58:30 <orudge> FLHerne: should all be fine now
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21:01:12 * FLHerne returns to his compulsive forum-lurking
21:04:32 <drac_boy> flherne have fun finding weird things :P
21:07:05 <Iviv> When running a dedicated server, is it possible to change anything in the openttd.cfg withough requiring a restart?
21:08:44 <Rubidium> depends on the settings and what you want
21:09:04 <Rubidium> the basic premise is that OpenTTD writes to the configuration file when closing down and only reads it when starting
21:09:33 <Rubidium> there is a setting that allows rereading the configuration file when starting a new game in the dedicated server
21:09:52 <Rubidium> alternatively you can change settings using rcon
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21:10:17 <Iviv> Ooh, what can you change like that? I assume there's limitations
21:11:10 <Iviv> Ideally looking at chaning never_expire_vehicles but that's a biggy that I doubt can change without a server restart
21:11:11 <Rubidium> most settings for new games and quite a few for the current game
21:11:29 <Iviv> Yeah, its for a server I'm running that's mid-game
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21:12:18 <Rubidium> I think you can't change that setting on a running MP game
21:12:34 <Rubidium> it's actually a setting stored in the savegame, so changing the config won't even change it for a loaded game
21:13:42 <Iviv> Thanks for the help on that :)
21:20:49 <Nat_aS> what's the point of being able to rotate the square airports? Just asthetics?
21:21:08 <Nat_aS> because I think it's funny that airports can be rotated by other buildings can't
21:22:27 <V453000> I guess to make you able build them not only like a*b but also b*a
21:22:34 <V453000> to fit in different places
21:22:44 <V453000> which justifies only 2 rotations, but ... :)
21:23:18 <Nat_aS> yeah, when I heard it was rotatble I just assumed you could make them longer or taller
21:23:25 <Nat_aS> with the rotations just being mirrored sprites
21:23:43 <Nat_aS> why did people bother drawing the backs of airports when all the other buildings don't have backs?
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21:25:41 <Nat_aS> and if airports are rotatable, what's stoping people from hacking in a sim city 2000 esque pseudo map rotation.
21:26:00 <Nat_aS> where the map rotates, but the buildings rotate as well so you never really see the backside.
21:29:38 <oskari89> Maybe it's for future NewAirports?
21:31:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: not all airports are rotatable. and not all other buildings are rotatable
21:31:38 <Nat_aS> all airports in openGFX airports are rotatable.
21:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: e.g. banks and hotels
21:31:53 <Nat_aS> they often have one or two chunks missing
21:31:58 <Nat_aS> and thus cannot be swaped
21:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: openGFX+ airports are not a default grf
21:33:49 <Nat_aS> yes, I know, but it wouldn't be as complicated as some other often requested features, Just new sprites for non square buildings, Eveyrything else can be cheated
21:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "just new sprites" is more difficult than you think
21:43:36 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't require opengfx, for example. and it's silly to push opengfx-style graphics into the original graphics
21:43:54 <Rubidium> "just new sprites" for rivers took only a few years
21:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't copy the original graphics
21:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> what does twitter need so fancy javascript for, that it can't live without?
22:13:27 <Skau1> ive built a trainstation next to a oilrig in the water now
22:13:36 <Skau1> after i did this, i get almost no oil at all
22:14:02 <Skau1> do you have to use boats for most effect?
22:14:06 <Skau1> cant see anything about this on wiki
22:14:23 <Skau1> all i know is that after i did this, i get no oil, even though the production is almost 2 million a month
22:21:26 <MNIM> could be the fact that they're trains, but I'd check first to see if you properly refitted to oil?
22:21:49 <MNIM> *very* common error, even among the most regular of users.
22:43:37 <Skau1> its oiltankers on the trains?
22:44:14 <Skau1> either way, i just removed one lane from the station, added a dock to it and set up 4 boats that is driving like .. 10 meters refilling it alle the time
22:44:32 <Skau1> but the point was that i wanted to avoid using boats
23:14:05 <Rienzilla> Skau1: maybe it's because the oil rigs have their own docks?
23:14:28 <Rienzilla> so they may not behave as a normal mine/factory
23:17:40 <Skau1> it still worked in a way
23:17:46 <Skau1> i just didnt get close to the same amount of oil
23:20:11 <Skau1> i give up making all the trains using same depot for maintnance
23:25:27 <Skau1> i just disabled maintance from the orderlist
23:25:36 <Skau1> and let the trains pick where they wanna go
23:26:01 <Skau1> works fine.. dunno why i ive used to set the maintance in orderlist at all
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23:43:10 <Rienzilla> yeah you just need to place your depots smartly
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