IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-29
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09:00:56 <GBerten2936> #Bend it, bend it, just a little bit. And take it easy, show you're likin' it.
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09:01:45 <lugo> ah well andythenorth isn't here anyways..
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10:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> why does a program (that ran before (long ago)) say that msxml4 is not installed, but winetricks says it is installed?
10:12:04 <Rhamphoryncus> different wine configs?
10:12:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i gave the proper WINEPREFIX
10:12:43 <Eddi|zuHause> and i checked, winetricks does give different results when leaving it out
10:13:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but there doesn't seem to be a "force" option
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10:26:21 <MNIM> I dunno, eddi, but in my personal experience wine is a roulette.
10:26:29 <MNIM> one day it works, the other day it doesn't.
10:30:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i find it quite rare that something stops working, after it worked once
10:30:32 <MNIM> muh. every day experience to me.
10:30:51 <Rhamphoryncus> My success rate with wine is probably.. 25%?
10:32:59 <Terkhen> I had some success, but it was my 0% success rate with new game releases what drove me back
10:35:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Usually it's ones that are listed as working too
10:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that may depend on graphics card and stuff
10:38:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Could very well
10:39:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and most problems are (still) due to copy protection mechanisms failing
10:41:21 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i just try installing it again
10:47:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "cool" ... the installer fails also :)
10:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> err:msi:ITERATE_Actions Execution halted, action L"ISVerifyScriptingRuntime" returned 1603
10:49:02 <Eddi|zuHause> whatever that means
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10:53:45 <Peping> Hello, if I want to create a new disaster object, like Zeppelin or so, using NewGRF, what feature do I specify it as?
10:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think you can specify new disasters via newgrf
10:54:17 <Peping> I thought it should be FEAT_OBJECTS but I'm not so sure.
10:54:53 <Eddi|zuHause> FEAT_OBJECTS is for lighthouses and stuff
10:55:22 <Peping> I know... And that's my other question. Can these move around?
10:55:46 <Eddi|zuHause> you can animate them, but only within the tiles you placed them on
10:57:01 <__ln__> so there is something newgrfs can't do?!?!
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12:02:45 <planetmaker> Peping, most probably the "correct" way to implement new disasters might be via game scripts. Though it might need extension on the source code side of OpenTTD, too
12:03:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but you can't bundle graphics with a game script
12:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> (maybe game scripts could force-activate a grf?)
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12:10:43 <planetmaker> you can't. But iirc you can on bananas set respective dependencies. If that works (I didn't quite test that), a force-selection (or disabling the game script in the NewGRF's absence) would be an option.
12:10:49 <planetmaker> probably rather the latter
12:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it would definitely need GUI support to activate the grf when selecting the game script, and to tell people that removing the grf will deactivate the game script
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12:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> just a bananas dependency won't work
12:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> and an action14 entry to hide the GRF from the general public
12:24:27 <planetmaker> yes, such support would make sense. though I think it can work without, oo
12:27:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r24078 /trunk/src/ (pbs.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Fix [FS#5093,FS#5130] (r24071): A fix that breaks all other cases isn't really a fix. Redo it to make sure that reservations of trains entering or exiting depots are properly made and freed.
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13:02:37 <Peping_> Any ideas where to get started on Game Scripts?
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13:10:25 <Eddi|zuHause> the wiki, i suppose
13:11:53 <planetmaker> or one of the existing projects on the DevZone
13:12:55 <planetmaker> OpenTTD has a history of nice acronyms :-)
13:13:09 <planetmaker> the API is documented at nogo.openttd.org
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14:35:12 <ffpp> does anyone who plays pax games and cargo dist actually use buses and trams inside of towns ?
14:36:16 <ffpp> is there a trick to it to not get the roads crowded like stupid ? ^^
14:36:42 <SpComb> and keep your level of service down enough that you don't get too many pax at your stations :)
14:37:00 <ffpp> even with those I had only limited success, maybe it's me
14:37:43 <ffpp> since I discovered 2cc metros I tend to demolish a line of road through the city and just send in some metros, they usually do the job, but it looks ugly
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14:44:03 <ffpp> btw, how do you keep the service level down on stations ?
14:45:19 <SpComb> provide bad service :P
14:47:05 <ffpp> when I tried that (implicitly) I just had people piling up on the station and the whole network got less efficient due to the wait times I think
14:47:43 <planetmaker> (big) trams often server a good purpose
14:48:04 <planetmaker> like those from the Japanese set. Or also the generic tram set
14:48:30 <planetmaker> and use many of them
14:48:48 <SpComb> but of course, some people hacked their openttd to generate fewer passengers..
14:49:52 <planetmaker> even some people hacked openttd to implement destinations or distribution of cargo ;-)
14:50:22 <planetmaker> 'fewer people' could probably be achieved by using an appropriate house NewGRF
14:53:27 <ffpp> well, the issue only came up since cargodist for me ;) since then my roads have been regularly stuffed with RVs
14:53:54 <ffpp> I just wanted to know if I'm the only one ^^
14:53:56 <Eddi|zuHause> well, without cargodist you never were interested whether hundreds of people piled up at the station
14:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> congestion of lines should probably have feedback on station rating
14:56:22 <ffpp> yes, and over the course of time this should generate less passengers
14:58:32 <ffpp> one expirement once was: send huge local trains (7 tiles or so) around the town in two circles, one clock-wise and one ccw, but then the loading times of the trains where so long that the whole system still collapsed
15:10:02 <SpComb> it's fairly impossible with the steam trains unless you flatten the entire map
15:10:29 <SpComb> but if you limit town growth, then it becomes manageable once you get modern trains (dbsetxl)
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15:12:52 <ffpp> I'm using ukrs2 at the moment, starting 1850 but also with very small towns
15:13:08 <ffpp> eddi, is this 128 x 512 mapsize ?
15:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was 256x512
15:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> more than 1:2 ratio makes the terrain generator look bad
15:13:54 * ffpp measures at screen with hand
15:16:07 <Eddi|zuHause> lets see if i have a version which can load this game...
15:16:59 <ffpp> how many stops are included in one cycle of a bus ?
15:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> yacd/loisachkirchen_r22434.diff that sounds right...
15:17:51 <Eddi|zuHause> hey that actually worked
15:22:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: of a few random lines, my longest seems to be 7 stations (from end to end, so 12 in a roundtrip)
15:24:41 <ffpp> I'm surprised this is working so well ;) but it has been a while since I played a game with really large towns
15:24:42 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: "JavaScript and ActiveX must be enabled to view the image gallery"
15:24:52 <SpComb> we need an extended .psav savegame format that bundles the diff against trunk with the savegame data :)
15:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: the trams are manageable. the trains are struggling
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15:26:36 <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: the longer the line, the less of an issue is the loading time, actually
15:28:19 <ffpp> it takes less of a portion out of the overall travel time I guess
15:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: key element is to timetable the trams so they do not bunch up
15:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> ffpp: planes are near hopeless
15:31:43 <ffpp> the automatic timetable and separation patch was a blessing for that
15:32:30 <ffpp> and yes, planes seem to spend large portions of time blocking each other on airports, as I remember them at least
15:35:12 <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Is that save available? I'd like a large comlex net like that for testing some performance changes to yacd
15:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> jazzyjaffa: i can give you the game and the patch
15:36:08 <Eddi|zuHause> jazzyjaffa: it's a slightly modified yacd 1.1
15:36:28 <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Ah ok, thanks. Would still be useful.
15:36:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (some backported yacd 2.x patches)
15:36:49 <jazzyjaffa> Eddi|zuHause: Yeah I can hack it to get it loaded
15:37:33 <ffpp> would one need many newgrfs to load it properly ?
15:40:46 <michi_cc> Some NewGRFs aren't on bananas, but the coop pack should have them.
15:41:24 <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Nice, thanks. So far I was just using a few AI's, but that doesn't make for good nets.
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16:07:00 <ffpp> is there a way to retrieve what newgrfs are used by a savegame ?
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16:32:57 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I made you some damnest lies (in the chilpp thread)
16:35:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: it's not that simple. some things were backported from trunk
16:36:11 <Rubidium> but anywhere near the magnitude as the rest of the changes?
16:42:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think so
17:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Assertion failed at line 1867 of /home/johannes/spiele/OpenTTD/yacd/src/vehicle.cpp: this->IsGroundVehicle()
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17:13:02 <planetmaker> sounds like something fixed already?
17:13:20 <Eddi|zuHause> quite possibly...
17:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: was that just a guess or do you have any information about that?
17:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> like the bug report, or the fixing commit
17:16:59 <Eddi|zuHause> or whether this is a trunk bug or a yacd bug
17:18:32 <Eddi|zuHause> note: when this happened, i just rerouted some aircraft from one airport to another
17:18:51 <planetmaker> I seem to recall seeing this assertion. Thus it must have occured before
17:19:02 <planetmaker> But I can't give you a rev which fixed it
17:19:15 <planetmaker> (or actually whether it was in trunk indeed)
17:20:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it definitely doesn't appear in the channel logs
17:23:12 <planetmaker> I also tend to read all bug entries on flyspray ;-) But that has no convenient way to be searched for anything like this
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17:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> r22492 seems easy enough to "backport" then
17:29:08 <planetmaker> makes it sadly visible how old yacd already is.
17:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause> similar calculation as chillpp applies here :)
17:37:01 <ffpp> you should have put it into trunk as long as it was still hot :)
17:37:14 <ffpp> but that is probably easier said than done
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17:39:03 <planetmaker> would have been easy.
17:39:10 <planetmaker> And slowed down OpenTTD considerably
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17:39:57 <Matulla> Hi question will the area of a town expend as the town growes or will it stay as the beginning
17:40:45 <planetmaker> it will grow, too
17:41:33 <Matulla> isent there a cheed or tool that markes the tiles of the town s
17:44:29 <michi_cc> Simply bringing YACD up to current trunk isn't hard, the parts it's interacting with didn't change much. I just don't see a point without any real improvments, and that's waiting on me having sufficiently long free time.
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24079 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt polish.txt):
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 7 changes by Parastais
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: polish - 1 changes by wojteks86
17:46:28 <Eddi|zuHause> having destinations makes it really easy to do multi-terminal airports :)
17:47:42 <ffpp> would have been easy. << had every patch of the pack been reviewed already ?
17:47:56 <Nat_aS> having destinations makes moving passingers worthwhile
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18:05:17 <Eddi|zuHause> GermanRV seriously needs to balance length vs. capacity
18:05:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i replaced a tram with a more modern tram with the same capacity. but it's longer, so fewer fit into a station. now my entire network deadlocked
18:07:34 <oskari89> Why there's some places where some vehicles have 100% loaded, but aren't going anywhere, intresting..
18:07:45 <oskari89> (Has a lan game with his wife here) ):
18:08:10 <oskari89> Just stuck on that "loading" stage..
18:09:49 <oskari89> How to cancel all timetables from shared orders?
18:10:37 <Alberth> no idea, does the wiki tell ?
18:11:46 <oskari89> No problem anymore :P
18:12:28 * Alberth likes people self-solving their problems :p
18:12:56 <Nat_aS> Eddi|zuHause that sounds really bad, most of the time vehicles get more capacity for the same/less length over time.
18:13:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the problem of GermanRV is that it sticks quite literally to the "realistic" capacity, but the vehicle lengths don't match.
18:14:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: in one instance, two vehicles have the same "realistic" length, but the ingame length is twice
18:14:37 <Nat_aS> that can be a problem with "realistic" sets
18:14:55 <Nat_aS> they are rarely balanced, and often important quirks cannot be modeled.
18:15:33 <Nat_aS> This new train is super expensive but statisticly worse than other trans, in real life it's price is justified by some fancy gimic that has no baring on a video game.
18:16:58 <Nat_aS> i kind of noticed that in the North american pack, although you could probably fudge features like "Enviromentaly friendly" as lower operating costs and reduced breakdowns.
18:17:14 <oskari89> Nah, sometimes it's good to have realistic capacities, such as in Finnish Trainset MU:s..
18:17:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, the size / passenger ratio might be "realistic" though :-)
18:17:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: no, it's not
18:18:27 <Nat_aS> I do like gimics like faster loading, steam power units, and mandatory cabooses.
18:19:07 <Nat_aS> but I don't think it's a good idea to base train stats 100% on real life, it's better to make a set where all the trains can be potentially profitable
18:19:22 <oskari89> Some stations in certain cities have extraordinary busy passenger stats, so no problem..
18:19:53 <Nat_aS> passinger boom can make anything draw a profit
18:20:15 <Nat_aS> I actualy use the red devil from tropic refurbishment set for inner city passenger service
18:20:26 <Nat_aS> on the same line as Electrics
18:20:42 <Nat_aS> and imagine it as a musiem piece.
18:20:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it's one of the reasons i decided that CETS should not modify capacity over time, and to not base anything on "realistic" capacities, but use pure length/capacity ratio
18:20:55 <Nat_aS> (I think even then it's too expensive)
18:21:30 <Nat_aS> i actualy do think it's fun to have one or two "I dare you to try to find an instance where you can use this" engines.
18:21:37 <Nat_aS> because how cool it is when you do.
18:23:07 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, probably good choice. Realistic capacities make little sense
18:25:21 <Nat_aS> well it make sense for capacity to increse over time
18:25:30 <Nat_aS> but that should mean trains getting shorter.
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18:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: the only net capacity increase will be the introduction of commuter/metro trains
18:57:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: other than that you have the choice between slow/high capacity and fast/low capacity trains
18:58:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: only speed will increase over time, not capacity
18:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> (that's of course completely different for freight wagons)
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19:08:15 <Nat_aS> i was talking about freight waggons
19:08:24 <Nat_aS> passinger trains are limited by type
19:08:46 <Nat_aS> like double decker and metro trains will increase capacity at cost of speed.
19:09:07 <Nat_aS> but normal passinger cars ought to stay the same by lenght
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19:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Nat_aS: freight wagons are depending mainly on axle weight
19:23:09 <Nat_aS> which does improve over time yes?
19:24:47 <Eddi|zuHause> and that is also roughly oriented along the real capacities
19:26:34 <Eddi|zuHause> man, i have no idea how i can fit another transrapid track onto this map...
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19:32:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a transrapid from Wiedhus Airport to Wörnitzkirchen Airport
19:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but i need another one from Wiedhus to Loisachkirchen
19:33:17 <Eddi|zuHause> which is kinda diagonal, so placing tunnels is problematic
19:33:25 <Eddi|zuHause> especially with a large enough curve radius
19:34:14 <Eddi|zuHause> and bridges are not fast enough
19:34:30 <Nat_aS> Dem multi-platform stations
19:36:00 <Nat_aS> so what part of the map?
19:37:32 <Eddi|zuHause> from the left to the center
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19:38:24 <frosch123> if you cannot build a diagonal track
19:38:37 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably without lowering any mountain top :)
19:38:38 <frosch123> then build a rectangular connection
19:39:14 <frosch123> it will only take around 1.4 times longer
19:40:02 <Nat_aS> Hmm, yeah the inproved speed of transrapids would make the ineficency of a rectangular route less of a problem
19:40:18 <Nat_aS> and it could have more stops
19:41:35 <Nat_aS> i love the land reclamation airports
19:41:57 <goodger> Eddi|zuHause: what grf is supplying those trees?
19:42:26 <Nat_aS> that brick factory in the far upper right,
19:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "treesw.grf" which is a modified variant of "stolentreesw.grf"
19:42:44 <Nat_aS> hidden away in a valley, with no connections to anything
19:43:40 <Nat_aS> connect that brick factory to something
19:45:50 <Nat_aS> wow the station at Havelkirchen is intresting
19:46:56 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
19:47:00 <Nat_aS> Havelkirchen is not importent enough for the main line to stop at it?
19:47:07 <Nat_aS> there is a tunnel under the station
19:47:53 <Nat_aS> small town outside of Wiedhus
19:49:16 <Nat_aS> it seems the station is only for grain, passinger trains bypass it entirely
19:49:17 <Eddi|zuHause> oh that one you mean. that's an industry station
19:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it serves the farm
19:49:41 <Nat_aS> oh that's not even a whole town
19:49:50 <Nat_aS> it's just a suburb of another town
19:50:11 <Nat_aS> dispite being in it's own valley
19:58:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. but nothing of that answers the question :)
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20:17:19 <Nat_aS> how to expand your transrapid?
20:17:35 <Nat_aS> i don't know, you are a tighter network designer than I
20:17:55 <Nat_aS> but this is a nice map
20:18:20 <Nat_aS> hilly enough to be chalanging, but with flat areas so you can actualy build things.
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20:28:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't usually build this tight. but i wanted to have a small map so i could quickly play a full game
20:29:42 <Eddi|zuHause> but because of the sheer amount of passengers, i neglected the industry part
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