IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-28
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07:10:28 <dihedral> <michi_cc> [28 Mar 2012 - 01:09:32] Most of the design pattern crowd seems to forget that there's more than just object oriented programming, and obviously OOP is always the best thing in the world (Java, I'm looking at you :) <- each and every language has its use... even erlang, perl, tcl ....
07:15:33 <planetmaker> ..., whitespace, brainfuck, ...
07:16:33 <blathijs> Those languages at least serve the purpose of making discussions like these more interesting ;-p
07:21:20 <planetmaker> ++++++++++[>+++++++>++++++++++>+++>+<<<<-]>++.>+.+++++++..+++.>++.<<+++++++++++++++.>.+++.------.--------.>+.>.
07:30:37 <xiong> I might have been interested in this interesting discussion if my connection had not been down and up for the last two weeks.
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07:51:24 <dihedral> planetmaker, whitespace has its use: namely when you need to write an exam at school ... on paper! :-D
07:52:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what's 65, 91, 98, 98, 101, 29, 80, 101, 104, 98, 90, 30, 9?
07:52:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I pasted the complete "Hello World" programme there
07:53:36 <planetmaker> or wiki is wrong ;-)
07:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it's easily possible i miscalculated :)
07:54:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but 29 and 30 don't seem right
07:54:56 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what 9 is
07:55:20 <Eddi|zuHause> wouldn't that be tab?
07:56:12 <planetmaker> ascii 0x09 is tab iirc, yes
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08:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/brainfuck.py <-- seems to work correctly. i probably miscounted or something
08:48:16 <Eddi|zuHause> > python ~/brainfuck.py ~/helloworld.bf
08:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> beware: my loop implementation may be buggy
08:50:33 <CornishPasty> What's your helloworld.bf look like Eddi|zuHause ?
08:50:34 <Eddi|zuHause> i need to rethink my handling of while(0)
08:50:49 <Eddi|zuHause> CornishPasty: from the wiki page. or what planetmaker posted above
08:54:34 <Eddi|zuHause> new version with hopefully improved loop behaviour
08:57:33 <planetmaker> lol, Eddi|zuHause :-)
09:00:02 * Rhamphoryncus thinks we should have a callback to change cargo ageing and payment.. then finds out they already exist
09:00:24 <Eddi|zuHause> yah, i thought of that first :)
09:00:38 <Eddi|zuHause> (but i did not implement it)
09:00:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Has anybody played with it yet?
09:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> not really. it's only few months old, no released newgrf uses it yet, afaik
09:01:40 * Rhamphoryncus sees FIRS hacks in his future
09:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> variable cargo aging is a vehicle set feature, not an industry set feature
09:02:40 <Rhamphoryncus> Oh, it's for boats and such?
09:03:00 <planetmaker> not quite true. OpenGFX+ Trains uses it for refrigerator wagons
09:03:13 <Rhamphoryncus> ahh interesting
09:07:25 <Rhamphoryncus> Well, the only reason I was considering cargo ageing was to extend the time I have to work with, but it's minor
09:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> reuploaded. now with license.
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09:25:14 <CQ> is there a way to get signals for both directions on one square?
09:25:38 <Nat_aS> like you mean normal signals?
09:26:47 <Eddi|zuHause> CQ: you never ever want such a signal combination
09:29:03 <CQ> i have a circular track, and am thinknig about having trains go both ways on it...
09:36:35 <planetmaker> I suggest you simply read up on the signal types
09:39:40 <CQ> planetmaker: I have, twice, and I still dont get it completely.
09:39:57 <CQ> the signals always show if a path to the next stopping point is clear
09:40:07 <CQ> at least the ones I'm using
09:41:01 <planetmaker> I think they show whether the next block is clear or they show red
09:42:27 <CQ> I thought block was stopping point, i.e. a signal or a station
09:42:38 <Eddi|zuHause> CQ: so when you have two signals on the same tile, you will have trains waiting on both sides until the other side clears, which will never happen, because there are no switches inbetween
09:47:15 <CQ> Eddi|zuHause: true... guess I need to rethink the design a little then,,,
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10:18:07 <ffpp> hi, I need some advice: I have a data structure (GuiList) which contains const pointers. At some point I want to retrieve one of those and need to use and change the pointed-to-obj. So I did a cast to a non-const pointer of the same obj type (\n)
10:19:13 <ffpp> ... I just make a pastebin
10:25:03 <ffpp> question: isn't this stupid as I modify the same object in both cases anyway ? Only the way to retrieve it has changed and this just tricks out the compiler warning
10:35:13 <Rhamphoryncus> Well, you shouldn't be casting away const, so..
10:35:53 <ffpp> so what ? both ways are stupid ?
10:36:16 <Rhamphoryncus> The second is slightly better, if uglier
10:37:19 <Rhamphoryncus> "I never modify it, except in this one particular case.." is a deep problem with the const model
10:38:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Off hand.. if you're storing a pointer it probably shouldn't be const. const works best for transient uses, ie you pass it to a function that doesn't modify it
10:39:25 <ffpp> in general it shouldn't be a semantic problem to modify templatevehicles, but in this one case I need to retrieve the tv to modify by looking at the selected index, so the 2nd way is just cleaner to retrieve it
10:40:33 <ffpp> the general usage of openttd seems to be to store const pointers into the GuiList templates, thats why I went with it in the first place
10:41:40 <Rhamphoryncus> I can't speak for openttd's style choices. I wasn't there when they happened :)
10:42:43 <ffpp> Why not, rhamphoryncus sounds like a create which existed a long time ago :)
10:43:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Well yes, but there was that pesky extinction in the middle while all the interesting stuff happened
10:44:12 <ffpp> how come you're helping out right now, then ? jurassic park ?
10:45:34 <planetmaker> capability to fly helps with escapes ;-)
10:46:17 <ffpp> I once knew all the queer dinosaur names - profession of choice then: 'dinosaur expert'. good times :)
10:47:03 <ffpp> thanks btw, I'm going with the 2nd way then, seems to be feasible
10:47:29 <Rhamphoryncus> huh, there's a usage of "queer" you don't hear much these days
10:48:07 * peter1138 is also happy & gay
10:48:37 <ffpp> I thought it means strange or something along that line, not gay
10:49:09 <peter1138> both words with multiple meanings, these days
10:51:11 <Rhamphoryncus> ffpp: that's the original meaning
10:52:29 <ffpp> and it is at the top of the list in the dictionary
10:53:10 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but dictionaries don't reflect common usage ;)
10:53:44 <Rhamphoryncus> The derogatory form became the dominant one, then more recently it's been reclaimed by the gay community
10:54:40 <ffpp> in all english speaking countries or only GB or the US ?
10:57:36 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm canadian so I'd say north america. I can't speak for GB
10:58:15 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm pretty sure there's some of it there too, but I don't know how much
10:59:15 <ffpp> hm, I actually learned the word on a north american sports forum, didn't seem like it was used with the gay meaning, maybe I got it wrong
11:02:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Unless there's a significant presence from the gay community I'd be surprised if it wasn't derogatory
11:04:52 <ffpp> especially in sports talks
11:11:01 * Rhamphoryncus goes to look, then realizes the file name and decides not
11:16:13 <Rhamphoryncus> although.. if notch can embed a language in his next game.. if I make a game I should embed brainfuck in it. Just to fuck with peoples' brains :)
11:18:55 <ffpp> use it as ai-scripting language
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11:19:24 <CornishPasty> How would that... I don't even
11:19:32 <CornishPasty> We need a language that can compile down to bf
11:24:03 <Rhamphoryncus> I figure that would happen eventually
11:38:41 <CQ> how do you get rid of an appaling rating in a town without bribing? I have one station there and can't build anything...
11:43:39 <ffpp> or deliver into or out of that town
11:45:33 <CQ> I can't deliver since I have no stations there
11:46:16 <planetmaker> wait or plant trees. Only the firs tree planted on a tile counts.
11:46:34 <planetmaker> As you can't get worse, it might help to kill more trees in advance to this endeavour
11:47:00 <planetmaker> but only tiles 15 tiles away from town centre count
11:47:15 <planetmaker> thus doens't work for large cities
11:48:33 <CQ> ok, thanks ... does it make sense for vehicles to have the hangar / dock / depot in their route, or do they go automaticaly if servicing is needed?
11:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> if you put the depot in the orders, they will never try to go to a different depot
11:49:34 <Eddi|zuHause> which may help with trains getting lost
11:49:35 <ffpp> especially for trains, which can't just change direction at will it makes sense to have a depot along every (long) route
11:50:07 <Eddi|zuHause> also, you may force the depot visit while the trains are empty then
11:50:22 <Eddi|zuHause> so the cargo is delivered as fast as possible
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12:47:55 <MNIM> "Step 1: Go to scripting website/room/ etc. Step 2: Pretend you're an air-headed, yet sexy blonde single 19 year old girl who is just so "desperate" to get the script working. Step 3: ???? Step 4: Profit!!!"
12:48:06 <MNIM> you're a bunch of coders, right.
12:48:38 <MNIM> especially if "Will show booby pics if helped"
12:48:55 <MNIM> I sincerely doubt it, but somebody said that works with coders. :P
12:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: if you believe that, you'd also believe that there are actual lesbians in #lesbians
12:51:57 <MNIM> wait, there's an actual channel #lesbians on this network?
13:05:00 <dihedral> do the pics sell? if they do, she can sell them and i'll take the cash :-D
13:05:22 <dihedral> ... for gpl released code :-D
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15:16:25 * andythenorth is all work and no play
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15:43:08 * ffpp wants to use testing as excuse for playing but frequent changes to the saveload code prevent any longterm fun
15:44:04 * Rubidium wonders what he's missing
15:45:18 <Rubidium> oh, but then it's your own fault ;)
15:46:43 <andythenorth> it's fun that such a massive hack to get 'stations over roads' is so popular :D
15:48:29 <V453000> oh, the cars can really drive on that?
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15:57:03 <andythenorth> lo Pikka le bird
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16:00:24 <andythenorth> Pikka: so is it done?
16:00:52 <andythenorth> what about the choo choos?
16:01:16 <andythenorth> what about....the industries?
16:01:20 <andythenorth> all the industry sets suck
16:01:26 * andythenorth wants a new industry set
16:02:42 <Pikka> people don't like my industry set much
16:02:58 <Pikka> either the stockpiling sucks, or it doesn't have enough fancy new cargos
16:05:10 <andythenorth> I just played it to death :P
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16:05:40 <andythenorth> too big, too complicated, too unfinishe
16:06:20 <TrueBrain> must ... not .. make .... easy .... " that's what she said " joke ....
16:08:23 <Pikka> andy: I'm considering a production feedback mechanism for mines
16:08:36 <Pikka> but probably just using goods rather than a special cargo
16:08:53 <andythenorth> goods covers all sins
16:08:59 <andythenorth> how about 'people' too? :P
16:09:04 <Pikka> I haven't worked out the details yet :) but I definitely want to replace the standard random production changes mechanism and make it more interesting
16:09:11 <Pikka> interesting for me, anyway
16:11:22 <andythenorth> will it be evil?
16:11:37 *** andythenorth is now known as bad_pikka
16:12:00 <Pikka> "more predictable" probably isn't evil
16:12:40 <Belugas> evil always gives some spice to life :)
16:12:53 <Pikka> industries suddenly halving production for no apparent reason is "evil", but also default behaviour and annoying
16:14:00 <Pinkbeast> Part of the trouble here seems to be that the demand of every consumer is infinite, which ought to make those stockpiles work better...
16:15:12 <planetmaker> welcome to "smooth economy". And also 'hello' :-)
16:15:18 <Pinkbeast> Well, the way vanilla OTTD lets you route all the coal on the map to one power station on the other side of the world.
16:16:39 <bad_pikka> why is that trouble?
16:16:42 <bad_pikka> that is correct behaviour
16:20:03 <bad_pikka> also...YACD has been updated to compile with recent trunk apparently ;)
16:21:50 <jazzyjaffa> Although I haven't fixed the subsidy bit yet.
16:23:29 <Pikka> I might do the calcutta and one futuristic plane in this release of av8, just so it balances out the 3-column vehicle list picture
16:24:00 <Pikka> just the calcutta would do I think
16:24:11 <Pikka> not that anyone will ever use it
16:25:08 <Pikka> I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses.
16:30:31 <bad_pikka> you also need to make one small one
16:31:01 <bad_pikka> maybe that's why HEQS is so relatively popular
16:31:13 <bad_pikka> it just adds biggest possible truck for any year
16:31:55 <bad_pikka> I've cut most of the small trucks from BANDIT :P
16:31:58 <Pikka> well, the calcutta is not only very small, but it's a seaplane, so until newairports it's pretty useless.
16:32:10 <bad_pikka> I'm leaving in the massive roadtrains which can be refitted to...smaller :P
16:32:35 <Pikka> I can't imagine many people will want to play HQOVS without BANDIT
16:32:46 <Pikka> "WHY ARE THERE NO TRUCKS UNTIL 1930?!?!"
16:32:56 <bad_pikka> mine currently run out in 1963 or so :P
16:33:04 <bad_pikka> I am awaiting canadian imports
16:33:51 * bad_pikka has been pondering food industry chain
16:33:53 <V453000> I've often thought when making vehicle sets that I should just make the 5 biggest/most powerful vehicles and not bother with the rest, since that's all anyone ever uses. <- solution to that is to make every vehicle the strongest one in its era ;)
16:34:02 <bad_pikka> oranges -> orange juice :P
16:34:47 <bad_pikka> blood -> black pudding
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16:36:01 <Pikka> blood + white bits -> black pudding
16:37:31 <Pikka> V453000: exactly, that produces much the same result.
16:38:47 <V453000> partially, it gives more vehicles that "everyone uses"
16:38:54 <Pikka> if I left out all the aircraft in av8 which were not bigger than everything that came before, av8 would contain 8 vehicles
16:39:06 <andythenorth> where do 'white bits' come from?
16:39:22 <Pikka> from ripping yarns, andythenorth
16:39:28 <andythenorth> also 8 vehicles in av8 is pretty nice
16:39:47 <andythenorth> it made perfect sense in this context
16:40:11 <andythenorth> input: sugar, holes; output: polo mints
16:40:37 <Pikka> HP42, Constellation, Stratocruiser, Brittania, DC8, 747, A380 and JTech, that's "pretty nice"?
16:42:00 <Pikka> but join any multiplayer server running av8 and I guarantee those are the only aircraft you'll see
16:42:22 <V453000> well Pikka you can reduce the power of those 5 or increase the power of the others
16:42:26 <V453000> to get more effectively
16:42:55 <Pinkbeast> ot the most powerful/fast available...
16:43:12 * Pinkbeast used the UKRS1 0-6-0, 2-6-4T, 0-8-0 (after the 2-8-0), 4-6-0, Pacific, 2-8-0 (after the 9F), AL6, C321, 5AT all after they were not the most powerful/fast available.
16:43:35 <Pikka> I'm not really complaining :) there are plenty of uses for the smaller aircraft
16:43:37 <Pinkbeast> ... but the OTTD mechanics do rather militate against it
16:43:44 <Pikka> it all depends on other grfs used, playstyle, etc
16:43:57 <Pikka> and cargo destinations will make a difference too
16:45:09 <Pinkbeast> Most cargod?st schemes seem to give a role to light trains (for eg FIRS supplies) but ensure every passenger train/plane/RV will always be the hugest available.
16:45:19 <V453000> yes, UKRS has the choices for player done the best way from all train newGRFs at the moment
16:46:12 <jazzyjaffa> Pinkbeast: Isn't that partly due to the massive amount of pax that towns currently generate?
16:46:42 <Pinkbeast> Well, it's not so massive if they only want to go on one trip (in a not-cargod?st world)
16:47:26 <Pinkbeast> Oh, and the A4 even after the Merchant Navy from the addons set because bleh, Bulleid.
16:47:55 <jazzyjaffa> I can see a role for smaller pax services if town pax production/growth is tweaked a bit - maybe some towns shouldn't grow (green belts? :D )
16:49:08 <Pikka> TaI houses limit town growth, and I believe there are also gamescripts if you'd rather do it that way
16:49:46 <jazzyjaffa> I'm doing some profiling of yacd to understand what's happening CPU usage wise. As always with this stuff the problem is that for detailed profiling you have to turn off inlining - but without inlining performance is different.
16:51:33 <Rhamphoryncus> During the money maker phase picking a cheap aircraft can work well. That only lasts for 3 or 4 aircraft though
16:52:18 <andythenorth> which makes more money, two 25t trucks, or one 50t truck? Assume total run / purchase cost is same
16:52:32 <andythenorth> also speed, power
16:52:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Shorter period without one loading
16:53:09 <andythenorth> but twice as many breakdowns...?
16:53:20 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm guessing cargo doesn't age while the vehicle is loading, but I haven't verified it
16:53:24 <Rhamphoryncus> What's a breakdown?
16:55:24 <andythenorth> the first 25t delivery will arrive before the first 50t delivery
16:55:34 <andythenorth> so break-even comes sooner
16:55:48 <Pikka> Rhamphoryncus: if the cargo available is so little that a massive plane will spend a month each time waiting to pick up, then the smaller plane is clearly a better option. but of course, with normal OpenTTD town growth and a 2048* map, the supply of passengers is practically unlimited
16:55:49 <andythenorth> so interest on debt is lower
16:56:25 <Pikka> I only play 256* maps, and with a small number of low-growth towns, my aircraft fleet is mainly 737s and ERJs.
16:56:38 <Rhamphoryncus> Shorter period without loading -> higher station rating -> higher volume -> more money
16:57:01 <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Yeah I saw that, thats with inlining on right?
16:57:06 <Rhamphoryncus> But if you mean 20 25t trucks vs 10 50t trucks then it's insignificant
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16:57:57 <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: BTW, nice patch, really easy to understand what is going on.
16:58:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: I mean literally the first 3 or 4 aircraft built in a game. After that you might as well switch to the 747 or whatever's best at the time
16:58:14 <michi_cc> I'm not totally sure, but I think yes. I also had one with inline disabled just in the Yapf part of YACD, but I think the image isn't from that.
16:58:19 <andythenorth> is 10 50t trucks vs 1 500t truck significant?
16:58:31 <Pikka> Rhamphoryncus: why, if your airports aren't producing enough passengers to fill a 747?
16:58:59 <Pikka> but I realise the way most people play openttd, supply of passengers is not an issue
16:59:02 <Rhamphoryncus> a single truck is going to leave the station without anything loading
16:59:14 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: well, maybe if you're focusing on pax the entire game
16:59:38 <Rhamphoryncus> I usually focus on trains and throw in planes/boats/trucks just for flavour
17:00:08 * andythenorth is fooling with an argument about continuous (single piece) flow versus largest possible batch size :P
17:00:19 <andythenorth> unless you're a production geek, it might not be interesting :P
17:00:49 <Pinkbeast> Rhamp: Well, there isn't much you can move with aircraft besides pax. Not nothing, but not a lot.
17:00:56 <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: My main thought is that the penalties due to waiting cargo are making the pf explore more of the network than is desirable. (although they are a needed part of the algorithm to make it work well)
17:01:16 <Pikka> Pinkbeast: except anything
17:01:21 <Pikka> especially with refitting orders
17:01:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Pinkbeast: I've largely avoided pax lately, other than token efforts to pacify towns. Still haven't tried YACD
17:02:11 <Pikka> I found in my latest test games that the B1900 is a very good for valuables connections
17:02:19 <andythenorth> YACD rocks. It also eats battery, and has some unfortunate edge cases :D
17:02:58 <Pikka> TaI towns also produce a lot of mail, so I find flying goods in and mail out quite profitable
17:03:10 <michi_cc> Many things make the PF slow, but ultimately A* is simply not the best algorithm for packet routing.
17:03:19 <andythenorth> Pikka: refitting :o
17:03:20 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: huh, haven't tried that
17:03:35 <andythenorth> Pikka: are you sure you're not DHL?
17:04:11 <Pikka> also, the A400 kicks serious cargo backside
17:04:25 <Pikka> 120 crates / 60t out of small airports at 480mph :)
17:04:41 <jazzyjaffa> michi_cc: Yes, but I see why you started with this approach given the structure of the gameloop
17:05:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: what other things could be used to give aircraft tradeoffs? Different cargo specialities? Flight speed vs airport density (all aircraft take the same space regardless of capacity)?
17:06:20 <andythenorth> it's kind of the same as trucks: not a lot can be done
17:06:23 <Pikka> newairports will make a big difference. it will be good to have granularity beyond "small" and "large"
17:07:04 <Rhamphoryncus> I've been meaning to use more of the coal trucks
17:07:06 <Pikka> at the moment, there's no airports you can operate a pc12 out of that you can't operate a 737 out of
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17:07:33 <ffpp> "YACD rocks." << how is it compared to CargoDist, performance-wise and other ?
17:08:00 <andythenorth> plane/airport situation is somewhat equivalent to truck/roadtypes situation
17:08:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: and the ability to scale up the airport. Sufficient runways and you can pick flight speed over cargo capacity
17:09:41 <Pikka> "speed vs capacity" isn't a thing in the real world any more than the "range vs capacity" that some people suggested
17:09:50 <Terkhen> ffpp: performance-wise I don't know; cargodist is updated and it uses distribution, YACD is outdated and uses destinations
17:09:58 <Pikka> the biggest aircraft tend to be the fastest anyway, just like the biggest aircraft tend to have the longest range
17:10:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Who cares about the real world? I want a fun game :P
17:10:29 <Pikka> well, if you want to create a "fun" grf with illogical stats, no-one's stopping you.
17:11:03 <Rhamphoryncus> So what's the real tradeoff? Cost, obviously, and having enough volume to justify the size?
17:11:21 <Pikka> volume and airport capabilities
17:11:24 <Chris_Booth> Rhamphoryncus: or just go nuts! make everything super small
17:11:52 <Rhamphoryncus> Chris_Booth: flying hover bus? :D
17:12:02 <Pikka> those both fall under "airport capabilites", andy :P
17:12:15 <andythenorth> watching a 747 land on the airport in mauritius is interesting
17:12:26 <andythenorth> it's pretty much 747 minimum length afaict
17:12:33 <andythenorth> and relatively rolling
17:12:41 <Rhamphoryncus> If you could expand an airport piecemeal then there wouldn't be such a strong push to upgrade to the biggest airport ASAP
17:12:45 <andythenorth> you see the wings bounce a lot :P
17:13:25 <Pikka> the way to combat the "push to upgrade" is to make the upgrade, usually, unneccessary, Rhamphoryncus
17:13:33 <Pikka> which again comes down to town growth and map size
17:14:02 <andythenorth> iirc, railroad tycoon pax would pay a premium for travelling in cool vehicles, e.g. streamlined etc
17:14:18 <andythenorth> ottd has a very bad proxy for this in the 'vehicle age' station rating factor
17:14:47 <Pikka> you can also adjust the cargo decay factor on the vehicles now, andy
17:15:05 <andythenorth> ...is also my thought :)
17:15:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Upgrading is a pain. Level the area, bulldoze town buildings that encroached (hope there's no industries), check that the town isn't so pissed that you can't rebuild, modify all the orders temporarily so they skip this station, wait for it to clear, bulldoze, rebuild, restore orders
17:16:04 <Rhamphoryncus> If you wait until it's needed, rather than when it's first available, it becomes that much harder
17:16:31 <Pikka> my point is it should never be needed, Rhamphoryncus
17:16:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Although the game I just played had "towns build roads" turned off, which was surprisingly nice
17:17:15 <Rhamphoryncus> Pikka: So no growth?
17:18:14 * andythenorth has considered patching so that the biggest airport is available at game start
17:18:18 <andythenorth> solves the problem :P
17:18:25 <Pikka> plenty of growth in the UK IRL, but you don't have a Heathrow in every Chipping Sodbury
17:19:02 <CornishPasty> Sodding Chipbury :P
17:19:07 <andythenorth> Pikka: have you been to Chipping Sodbury? Pretty much like Heathrow
17:19:08 <Rhamphoryncus> And real life has more than 8 aircraft
17:19:31 <Pikka> so does av8, Rhamphoryncus
17:19:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Not that get used
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17:20:33 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm quoting you there. My experience is less than 8
17:20:50 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Possibly because I'm not using pax.
17:21:09 * lobster tumbles into t'channel
17:21:11 <Pikka> only, and we're back to the beginning again, because of 2048* maps with silly-sized towns
17:21:41 <lobster> are there any Russians or Russian-speaking people in here?
17:21:50 <andythenorth> what are we chatting about again?
17:21:55 * lobster slaps Pikka in the dangly parts
17:21:57 <andythenorth> oh yes, players are annoying
17:22:18 <andythenorth> but we need them
17:23:51 <andythenorth> also my truck set is still de-motivatingly broken :P
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17:24:52 <MeanEYE> Hi there. Where can I find instructions on how to make a dedicated OpenTTD server without Xorg?
17:24:53 <ffpp> Terkhen: I know the difference in their main ideas, but I never read anywhere how much of difference it makes gameplay-wise when the destinations demand transport rather than you initiating everything
17:25:07 <andythenorth> all the difference
17:25:13 <Terkhen> for that you'll need to test it :)
17:25:14 <andythenorth> it's significantly much better on average
17:26:30 <andythenorth> maybe I should rethink my truck classes
17:26:50 <Pikka> what do you have at the moment?
17:27:11 <andythenorth> express, normal, heavy duty, in a range of sizes
17:27:22 <andythenorth> and also I'm trying to reflect real life model variation
17:27:41 <andythenorth> I could just simplify to: line-haul (big) and local (small)
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17:28:14 <andythenorth> it does seem to be what the game needs: big and small
17:31:08 <andythenorth> but also, because of drive-in stops, I have to duplicate a lot of sizes
17:32:06 <andythenorth> I want BANDIT to offer articulated trucks, with variable number of trailers, because that interests me
17:32:19 <andythenorth> but I also have to provide non-trailer trucks in a wide range of sizes
17:32:34 <andythenorth> 'have' is a removable word
17:32:35 <Pikka> if people want "big", they have to go artic
17:32:58 <andythenorth> or I put down BANDIT, and figure out rv-wagons
17:33:02 <andythenorth> but I tried that once :(
17:33:20 * andythenorth predicts further truck removal from BANDIT
17:34:01 <andythenorth> every home should have one
17:34:21 <Pikka> unless/until seaplaneports, at least
17:35:48 <andythenorth> why is designing a ship set so easy? :P
17:36:05 <andythenorth> ships really just balance out, no problems, no hassles
17:36:17 <andythenorth> or at least nobody tells me any problems with FISH :P
17:36:30 <Pikka> everything is introduced in 1870
17:36:45 <andythenorth> file under 'unfinished'
17:36:49 <andythenorth> designing is easy
17:36:53 <andythenorth> drawing is not :P
17:37:16 <andythenorth> seems also my CGI artist didn't know about dimetric, which is why lots of FISH ships just look wrong
17:37:40 <andythenorth> but I'm not redrawing them again :P
17:40:04 <andythenorth> btw, fancy 'upgrading' your Puffer to look like FISH style?
17:40:17 <Pikka> how so? the FISH ships look okay to me...
17:40:23 <Pikka> hmm possibly, what does it need?
17:40:34 <andythenorth> I tried putting it in, but scale and style don't really quite fit
17:40:36 <andythenorth> hard to say more
17:40:55 <andythenorth> I can't really explain FISH style, all I can say is DanMacK nailed it first time when he contributed :P
17:40:59 <andythenorth> he's a good one that one
17:41:06 <Pikka> well, I guess if the lighting is rendered differently, it might be hard to make it match
17:41:12 <Pikka> I thought the fishies were all rendered?
17:41:50 <Pikka> I never really cleaned up the puffer properly, I rendered it then lost interest
17:42:03 <andythenorth> FISH is drawn over a lot, or from scratch
17:42:16 <andythenorth> and quite a lot of chop+shut which works surprisingly well
17:44:42 <andythenorth> and I started backdating the coasters to older models
17:45:00 <andythenorth> Dan did one angle of an awesome 1870s coaster to taunt me with, then went silent :P
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24077 /trunk/src/lang/ (latvian.txt romanian.txt vietnamese.txt):
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 94 changes by Parastais
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 2 changes by kkmic
17:45:32 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
17:49:04 <andythenorth> if someone prodded me (i.e. with sprites), I could get FISH to 1.0.0, e.g. models change over time, and cargo support
17:49:56 <andythenorth> I had the idea to use one set of sails repeatedly
17:49:59 <andythenorth> anyway - bathtime
17:50:12 <Pikka> sails are definitely a render job I reckon :)
17:50:19 <ffpp> is it normal that I cannot click towns anymore with yacd ?
17:50:36 <ffpp> the description at least says 'click town to see where cargo wants to go'
17:52:36 <ffpp> and the town's names aren't displayed either
17:53:30 <jazzyjaffa> ffpp: In the town view or station view?
17:53:30 <Pikka> "town names displayed" in the option menu? D;
17:55:25 <ffpp> Pikka, you mean the Town Names option in the game options ? its set to english, nothing else available though
17:55:46 <jazzyjaffa> ffpp: YACD doesn't touch the code for displaying town names in the main view.
17:56:18 <jazzyjaffa> ffpp: Click the cog - 'Town names displayed' should have a checkmark
17:58:20 <CQ> whats teh best way to upgrade to maglev, recall all trains, and then upgrade all at once?
17:58:23 <jazzyjaffa> ffpp: np, this game has many places for settings ;)
17:58:35 <ffpp> I'm playing this game for a couple of years and have never bothered to look below 'transparency options' as it seems ...
17:59:41 <jazzyjaffa> ffpp: "full animation" and "full detail" set to off makes fast-forward extra-fast-forward
17:59:56 <Terkhen> CQ: I usually don't bother, I just send the old trains to a depot and build new ones
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18:37:51 <CQ> can you transfer oil from a tanker to a train somehow?
18:37:57 <andythenorth> Pikka: sails could be placed on hulls by pixa, removing some of the tedium
18:38:28 <andythenorth> also makes different sail states a bit less boring to do
18:38:37 <andythenorth> which way does the wind go though? :P
18:39:02 <andythenorth> if you're done on UKRS and AV8, you need a new project right? :P
18:39:24 <Pikka> apart from my website, TaI and HQOUS, you mean? :)
18:40:16 <Pinkbeast> What's a HQOUS, please?
18:40:23 <andythenorth> I'll draw you some TaI :P
18:40:40 <Pinkbeast> andy: I'd love to see a prevailing wind so sailing ships have a unique flavour
18:40:48 <andythenorth> buildings luxuriously only have one angle
18:43:16 <Pikka> road vehicles, Pinkbeast
18:43:29 <Pikka> and no they don't, andy, not in TaI :)
18:43:44 * Rhamphoryncus manages to lose another game in the first 5 minutes
18:44:51 <Pikka> andy: I shouldn't think the wind direction will make much of a difference
18:45:30 <Pikka> your ships will be of a size that they're mainly square rigged, you can't change the speed based on direction, and if we change the sail loading by direction people will just think it's a bug
18:46:28 <Pinkbeast> Speed based on direction would be lovely, though (but even if it could be done in a grf, the pathfinder would have to be aware, etc...)
18:48:24 <andythenorth> you can change the speed based on angle of rotation...
18:48:32 <andythenorth> it's an 80+ var, I looked into it ;)
18:48:42 <andythenorth> but it might be crappy
18:49:05 <Pikka> the speed is cached, it will only be updated when the vehicle leaves the depot I'm guessing
18:49:26 <andythenorth> it changes when leaving stations
18:49:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my mind is melting
18:50:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i read "Pikkabeast" and was horribly confused...
18:50:23 * Pinkbeast has the sudden urge to draw locomotives
18:50:36 *** andythenorth is now known as Eddi|zuPikka
18:53:18 *** Eddi|zuPikka is now known as andy|zuHause
18:53:55 *** andy|zuHause is now known as andydunord
18:54:00 *** andydunord is now known as andythenorth
18:54:39 *** Pikka is now known as opludge
18:54:50 *** opludge is now known as Pikka
18:55:09 *** andythenorth is now known as frosch234
18:55:45 *** frosch234 is now known as Rubidium`
18:55:45 <frosch123> wow, that highlighted me :o
18:55:55 *** Rubidium` is now known as quak
18:56:08 * quak should stop dicking around and get on with writing the 5 year plan
18:56:16 *** quak is now known as andythe5yearplan
18:56:29 <frosch123> oh crap, that highlights me everytime you say something :s
18:57:07 <andythe5yearplan> if you change your nick to rv-wagons, that will highlight me every time :P
18:57:15 * andythe5yearplan lives in hope, despite evidence
18:59:16 *** andythe5yearplan is now known as andythenorth
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19:11:06 <planetmaker> 20:37 CQ: can you transfer oil from a tanker to a train somehow? <-- yes. Use transfer orders. And build a joint station with dock and tracks
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19:13:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Also, trained monkeys. Covered in oil.
19:16:27 <planetmaker> sounds like tuna fish. just different
19:17:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i've never seen trained tuna fish before
19:17:40 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure i've ever seen an actual tuna fish anyway
19:18:31 <planetmaker> on TV I did. But there's a variety of different tuna fish
19:20:11 <supermop> i've seen them for sale in tsukiji market
19:20:58 <planetmaker> yeah. and tasty ;-)
19:21:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea how it tastes
19:22:24 <Eddi|zuHause> when i eat fish, it's usually herring
19:22:42 <planetmaker> you never ate tuna fish? Not even canned?
19:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> if i did, i forgot
19:25:30 <telanus> I've seen a tuna, once at the harbour. it was a small tuna
19:27:24 <Pinkbeast> Or as part of sushi. Mmm, sushi.
19:27:53 *** Nat_aS is now known as rv-wagons
19:28:06 *** rv-wagons is now known as CHIPS
19:28:15 *** CHIPS is now known as CHIPS-is-taken
19:28:21 *** CHIPS-is-taken is now known as Nat_aS
19:30:33 <Rhamphoryncus> What sort of more? :D
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19:31:41 <andythenorth> few extra features
19:31:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Although I should qualify that and say I mostly just use the platforms and blank tiles. The misc buildings rarely get use
19:31:56 <andythenorth> not a big update, more of a nibble
19:34:49 <Rhamphoryncus> But for such simple things the platforms have a surprising amount of interest
19:35:22 <Pinkbeast> Well, being able to plunk down a reasonable-looking station without agonising over it is no bad thing...
19:36:45 <Pinkbeast> Errr interesting filename
19:37:33 <Rhamphoryncus> I use a ton of other station grfs too, but since CHIPS provides cargo waiting for pickup stations..
19:41:19 <andythenorth> definitely looks like a 7forty7
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19:58:59 <CQ> can any of the futuristic planes land on helipads or just the copters?
19:59:59 <Pikka> if they could land on helipads, then they'd be helicopters by definition
20:02:39 <Eddi|zuHause> zeppelins can land on helipads :)
20:02:54 <Pikka> zeppelins are helicopters!
20:03:01 <Pikka> as far as openttd is concerned, anyway ;)
20:03:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (that should probably be fixed with newairports)
20:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> ("landing type IDs" -> "PLAN", "HELI", "ZEPP", "SEAP", ...)
20:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> probably the runway length should be encoded in there as well
20:05:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. "small plane" and "large plane"
20:06:06 <Pikka> plane type tables and var-2 based statemachines which can send aircraft to different places based on variables including the plane type
20:06:23 <andythenorth> what is this newairports of speak you which?
20:06:41 <andythenorth> speaking not of it
20:06:58 <andythenorth> I even have a grf here
20:07:00 <Eddi|zuHause> everything is done. except the interesting parts :p
20:07:04 <Pikka> and then people lost interest and/or gave up :)
20:07:10 <andythenorth> a wind turbine where your helicopter can land
20:07:18 <andythenorth> and also an industry airport
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20:10:58 <Pikka> av8ports is in a state, I never even finished planning out what airports I would make
20:11:09 <Pikka> but really what I should do is draw them all and code it and release the grf
20:11:28 <Pikka> a new set of airports, all unusable :)
20:11:44 <Pikka> that might be a bit more of a spur to newairports getting completed
20:12:26 <Pikka> so many things to do, so little time. my holiday ends april 1st too...
20:12:59 <Pikka> I have to start finding things to do that make money then :[
20:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> money is overrated
20:13:31 <Rubidium> maybe you can work on p1sim ;
20:13:37 <Pikka> it's a point of view, Eddi|zuHause
20:14:00 <Pikka> p1sim is going to be the next minecraft and I'll make millions
20:14:15 <andythenorth> €8.99 per download
20:14:23 * Pinkbeast read his design document; I'm awfully glad I don't live in the world of P1SIM, leaving the house between 0400 and 0600 and returning from work between 2000 and 2200 in a city where everyone owns a stinking car
20:15:01 <Pikka> except, of course, if p1sim was going to be the next minecraft it would have started making millions about a year and a half ago
20:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> everybody knows that free-to-play with payable addon-content is the new model of making money on the internet
20:15:13 <andythenorth> newgrf authors win
20:15:20 <tx> hi, is there a way to reduce simulation speed?
20:15:22 <Rubidium> I'm sure it'll make millions
20:15:26 <Pikka> it's the new model of trying to make money on the internet :)
20:15:30 <andythenorth> how much % do you want Rubidium for owning the store? :P
20:15:43 <Rubidium> ... of characters of pre-development documentation
20:15:44 * andythenorth makes money on the internet
20:16:16 <Eddi|zuHause> tx: only the pause button
20:16:32 <andythenorth> having customers who pay for stuff is the magic secret
20:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> (or the F1 key, respectively)
20:16:43 <andythenorth> to get that you make stuff people want
20:17:11 <andythenorth> having a price helps
20:17:24 <andythenorth> you know...capitalism and crap
20:17:34 <tx> Eddi|zuHause: that's fine for local, but on a dedicated server, it runs with around 100years/day that's way to fast
20:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> you're right. don't give people what they need. only give them what they want.
20:17:51 <Pinkbeast> Ah, you want a daylength multiplier patch, tx
20:18:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I actually learnt that the hard way :P
20:18:31 <andythenorth> but you can subtract 'only'
20:18:32 <Prof_Frink> Eddi|zuHause: No, don't give them what they want, give them what they ask for.
20:18:43 <tx> Pinkbeast: If it can slow down this thing yes :)
20:19:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Prof_Frink: that's for the really advanced people :)
20:19:03 <andythenorth> that's nice on day rates, with time and materials :P
20:19:09 <andythenorth> I wouldn't recommend it for products
20:19:20 <andythenorth> or fixed fee contracting
20:19:59 <tx> Pinkbeast: will it be needed on every client or is the server enough?
20:20:23 <Pinkbeast> I don't know, I'm afraid.
20:20:55 <andythenorth> if you get paid on whether the thing actually works, then you actually do give the customer what they need
20:22:36 <Prof_Frink> Thankfully we get paid on whether we've shown the thing *should* work.
20:23:42 <planetmaker> tx: a dedixated server runs the same speed as other openttd. except fast-forward (single player only) and pausing there's no speed setting anywhere
20:24:12 <andythenorth> do you poke it with a sharp stick and say "she'll probably do" ?
20:24:29 <tx> planetmaker: so independent of hardware two clients always have the same speed?
20:24:46 <planetmaker> unless hardware is too slow to maintain the fixed speed
20:25:05 <Pinkbeast> Errr surely tx is asking about daylength not ticks-per-real-second
20:25:22 <planetmaker> most probably. And I'm saying: err_no_such_setting
20:26:28 <tx> planetmaker, Pinkbeast thx for the answer then maybe i have to use another way like pausing after the last client disconnects
20:26:29 <Pinkbeast> Surely one can run a dedicated server with a daylength patch on it?
20:26:49 <planetmaker> tx: learn to use min_active_client
20:27:20 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: surely that's not possible unless you patch it and give the same patch to all clients
20:27:33 <Nat_aS> changing daylenght wont change the speed things move right?
20:27:42 <Nat_aS> just the date and prices?
20:27:47 <tx> planetmaker: yeah that was what i'm going to use thanks
20:28:02 <Pinkbeast> planetmaker: Well, yes. But that is not impossible. And it would be one approach to tx's problem.
20:28:06 <Nat_aS> because I think the date progresses too fast but trains go too slowly
20:28:24 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: No, we carefully avoid making anything and just play with computers.
20:28:25 <tx> i hoped for a way to slow down days without modifying the clients
20:28:31 <planetmaker> Pinkbeast: quite inconvenient, if you want to setup a server though.
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20:28:43 <planetmaker> no player will be able to connect unless he als gets a custom build
20:28:59 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: you're simulating atomic weapons?
20:30:29 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: No, but we have done some work on weapon delivery systems.
20:30:54 <Prof_Frink> I've also done some work on bomb-disposal robots, so it's all balanced.
20:31:05 <andythenorth> so sharp sticks are involved :P
20:31:10 <andythenorth> but they go 'bang'
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20:33:04 <Prof_Frink> It's slightly diconcerting that on a multi-million-pound aircraft you can have the instruction "Poke it with a stick and wiggle it about until it fits".
20:34:09 <andythenorth> you work at EADS? :P
20:35:56 <Prof_Frink> No, this was for Rolls. But I've told you too much. I'll have to kill you now.
20:36:06 <andythenorth> poke it with a mop from chipping sodbury
20:37:23 <Prof_Frink> The company we were working with on this project is based just up the road from Chipping Sodbury.
20:37:46 <Prof_Frink> It's an Aerospace company. In Yate.
20:38:58 <Eddi|zuHause> do they produce Yate Hogans?
20:39:11 <Eddi|zuHause> (or what were they called again?)
20:39:43 <Eddi|zuHause> (man i clearly haven't played with original vehicles in years)
20:39:50 <andythenorth> probably named after Yate
20:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> most vehicles are named after people who appear in the credits
20:41:37 <andythenorth> some are UK place names
20:41:38 <Prof_Frink> Or places near MicroProse's head office.
20:43:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i never understood why they changed the names anyway... they were "correct" in the original TT. the "mangled" names only appeared in the world editor
20:44:18 <andythenorth> didn't want to get sued probably
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22:02:42 <__ln__> Wolf01: pre-emptive 'night
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23:34:03 <DDR> So at this point, Mike has to pour his Fireball on her to put her out, but then she says "That wasn't my dog"! XD
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continue to next day ⏵
