IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-12
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01:16:13 <Eddi|zuHause> srslywtf... i changed something that _reduces_ code complexity, but it _increases_ the memory footprint of nmlc?!?
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07:42:16 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: how much memory would you need?
07:46:58 * andythenorth needs more memory
07:47:03 <andythenorth> I keep forgetting things :|
08:10:29 <Ammler> building cets likes to break the whole system awesome :-)
08:13:08 <Ammler> maybe memory increase is also related to Hirundos optimations
08:13:40 <andythenorth> Ammler: good to push boundaries ;)
08:15:16 <andythenorth> system capabilities ;)
08:15:31 <andythenorth> stretching things causes improvements
08:15:44 <Ammler> yes, I rised limit from 4GB to 6
08:16:03 <Ammler> cets seems to build again
08:17:10 <andythenorth> so now I have my pixa module, but the imports have to be 'from pixa.pixa'
08:22:15 <planetmaker> wot? compiling cets needs more than 4GB ram?
08:23:29 <planetmaker> that sounds... way too much to me
08:23:44 <SpComb> andythenorth: once you have your code split across more than one module
08:24:07 <SpComb> andythenorth: you can also have stuff in your __init__.py
08:24:53 <andythenorth> I should probably split the code up logically
08:25:01 <andythenorth> currently it's nice to only have one editor window :P
08:26:41 <Ammler> planetmaker: that is not the limit of the build, that is the limit of the whole system
08:27:05 <Ammler> build host had around 1GB
08:29:22 <andythenorth> now I have to run setup.py everytime I make a change to pixa :)
08:32:50 <andythenorth> dunno how to do that
08:33:59 <Ammler> or simply exapnd PYTHONPATH
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11:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: if the build itself "only" uses ~1GB, what's using the other 3GB?
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11:59:43 <Ammler> I did not check the real memory usage, just guessing
11:59:54 <Ammler> but around 3GB is always reserved
12:01:16 <Ammler> hmm, gunicorn is quite a memory waster
12:01:41 <Ammler> maybe I should again test uwsgi
12:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure why the memory usage is so high, anyway. we have ca. 350k loc (~5MB) of sources. that means for every line it uses ~500kB of memory...
12:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> btw, i have done a new profile run, after i "optimized out" the whole template calculations, now the time spent in binop.py:reduce dropped from 150s to 12s
12:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> now the majority of the time is spent in the parser
12:09:11 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, i think i misread the numbers, 125k loc, which makes it even worse
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14:37:39 <dorfle> does openttd model an economy in an interesting way
14:38:27 <rane> i've been wondering if there are some essential addons that make the game more interesting
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15:12:46 <planetmaker> dorfle, rane: define "interesting"
15:13:19 <planetmaker> personally I'll answer 'yes' to both of your questions
15:14:33 <dorfle> i cannot define it, it's a question of opinion :)
15:18:38 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Ironically, binop::reduce spends most of its time optimizing... I guess the optimization needs optimization ;-)
15:18:53 <dihedral> dorfle, yes it is interesting
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15:24:56 <planetmaker> rane, then... how can anyone else answer your (implicit) question?
15:25:18 <rane> by recommending addons they've found to be an interesting addition to the game
15:25:52 <planetmaker> My suggestion for you is: look through the tt-forums. You'll find mentioned plenty
15:26:06 <planetmaker> Explore the online content. Try a few. Maybe just in a quick test game
15:26:39 <planetmaker> or also from the forums
15:27:15 <planetmaker> of course I'll recommend "my" NewGRFs...
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16:05:05 <evdvelde> hi all, what is the easiest way in the game to convert rail types? :-)
16:05:27 <evdvelde> I want to upgrade but converting every piece by hand seems like quite a jobe
16:05:30 <planetmaker> using the convert button
16:05:48 <evdvelde> planetmaker: that could take ages, not?
16:06:01 <planetmaker> dragging the whole screen is one action
16:06:15 <planetmaker> zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
16:06:20 <evdvelde> and what about the trains?
16:06:33 <planetmaker> and replace by proper type for new track
16:06:45 <planetmaker> or if tracks are incompatible you'll have to build new ones
16:06:49 <planetmaker> in another depot.
16:06:52 <evdvelde> ah ok, so... just replace them all and it should work?
16:06:56 <planetmaker> you could share orders with old trains though
16:07:14 <Eddi|zuHause> or use the universal railtype
16:07:59 <evdvelde> i have 20+ trains in an fully connected network and would hate to manually have to check each rail :)
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16:08:45 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> zoom out, drag whole map with convert tool. done
16:08:51 <planetmaker> thus no tile needs checking
16:09:23 <evdvelde> ok thanks and then i'll have to see how fast i can change my trains
16:09:46 <TinoDidriksen> ...that's the kind of thing I turn "build while paused" on for.
16:11:01 <planetmaker> TinoDidriksen, I only wish people were upgrading or repairing infrastructure also while "paused" ;-)
16:12:49 <evdvelde> the other thing that bugged me in my first long openttd game was how fast some industries disappeared
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16:54:21 <giucam> i really like openttd, but mostly the trains. is there an ai that builds and manages buses in the towns and connect them to my train stations?
16:56:32 <dihedral> iirc other companies cannot connect to eachothers stations
16:56:47 <dihedral> it only allows connecting to own stations
16:56:53 <dihedral> and an ai runs its own company
16:57:39 <planetmaker> There's no "play me" script for player companies
16:58:12 <giucam> well, just "play buses for me" :)
16:58:29 <giucam> it would be a simbyotic relationship
16:58:31 <dihedral> that sounds like a job for TB :-P
16:59:23 <planetmaker> dihedral, that was explicitly rejected
16:59:50 <planetmaker> especially and foremost by TB
17:00:08 <planetmaker> giucam, it's a guy :-)
17:00:26 <giucam> i though it was a project
17:01:03 <Prof_Frink> I thought it was a disease.
17:01:16 <planetmaker> he wrote OpenTTD's game script interface
17:02:48 <giucam> btw, is there some paper explaining ottd's pathfinder?
17:03:09 <giucam> i mean how it's implemented
17:03:51 <planetmaker> There's the source code
17:03:58 <planetmaker> It's the ultimate documentation ;-)
17:04:02 <planetmaker> It's an A* path finder
17:04:31 <giucam> eh, but there are the signals
17:04:38 <giucam> (i'm talking about the trains)
17:04:50 <planetmaker> doesn't change anything of what I said
17:05:01 <planetmaker> it's just how penalties for it are chosen
17:05:12 <planetmaker> and those are in the config file
17:06:18 <giucam> i've been working on a 3d railroad sim. i could write an A* pathfinder to go from point A to point B, but i didn't know how to add in siglans
17:07:05 <planetmaker> Each rail tile gets a penalty.
17:07:10 <planetmaker> Signals are on rail tiles
17:07:23 <planetmaker> Thus their presence, their type and their state may change the rail tile's value
17:07:36 <planetmaker> the path with the least penalties is the best
17:09:46 <planetmaker> path finder is called everytime a train reaches a tile where tracks branch
17:09:49 <giucam> ok, but i was calculating the path when the train starts. this won't work if a signal becomes red after it started
17:10:08 <giucam> when does openttdf calculates the path?
17:10:21 <Rhamphoryncus> Many of those value changes only apply when a train is nearby though. That's why you can have two tracks and a train will always go along them, regardless of how loaded the other end is, but will pick a nearby one that has the least red signals
17:10:52 <Rhamphoryncus> (it's more complicated than just a count of red signals, but that's the gist of it)
17:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> <Prof_Frink> I thought it was a disease. <-- no, that's TBC :p
17:11:21 <giucam> planetmaker: oh, i didn't see your last message :)
17:11:21 <Rhamphoryncus> I thought FIRS was a disease?
17:11:22 <planetmaker> yeah. Only the next 20(?) signals or so are considered with their state
17:11:45 <Rhamphoryncus> And each is given a different weight
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17:13:11 <giucam> i don't know if i will ever continue it, though :P
17:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> make an OpenTT3D :)
17:13:59 <giucam> that's the idea, more or less :)
17:14:08 <Rhamphoryncus> yeah, make an opengl renderer for openttd
17:14:20 <giucam> i'd want an openttd with more track directions and with nicer looking terrain
17:14:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: the _renderer_ isn't really that big of a problem...
17:14:49 <Rhamphoryncus> Which problem? :)
17:16:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Ahh, openttd is closer to doing that than you realize, at least for the graphics
17:17:00 <giucam> you mean the terrain or the tracks?
17:17:13 <evdvelde> if you look at the overview of e.g. trains, is it possible to autogroup them by something else than All availble and Ungrouped Trains? E.g. all trains with non-electric engines
17:17:19 <Rhamphoryncus> higher resolution and colour depth for all sprites
17:17:42 <giucam> i'm indeed playign with 32bpp
17:17:45 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, it needs roughly 1500 sprites
17:17:52 <Eddi|zuHause> evdvelde: no. the last attempt at making that more flexible didn't go anywhere (yet)
17:18:06 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: *nod* I need to install it and see how it works
17:18:11 <evdvelde> Eddi|zuHause: thanks for the answer, pity though :)
17:18:17 <giucam> but that's not what i'd want
17:18:35 <Rhamphoryncus> the 32bpp stuff. Whatever stuff there is. :)
17:18:47 <planetmaker> that needs WAY more sprites (about 10k)
17:18:51 <Rhamphoryncus> I have tried the 32bpp renderers before. Sadly a significant performance penalty :/
17:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: 32bpp and extra-zoom doesn't make it 3D
17:18:58 <planetmaker> I meant 3D or rather rotation
17:19:22 <Rhamphoryncus> We all have different intentions, heh
17:19:41 <planetmaker> I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-)
17:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you mean map rotation, what about all the newgrfs?
17:20:25 * Rhamphoryncus will break out MS Paint via wine and start drawing
17:20:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, bad luck. Disable rotation feature, if there's a NewGRF which has not set the "allow rotation" bit set
17:20:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rhamphoryncus: do yourself a favour and start with gimp
17:20:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I was joking :)
17:21:23 <planetmaker> Thus it would require explicit NewGRF support
17:21:39 <planetmaker> One could go fancy and check for features used in the grf.
17:22:04 <planetmaker> It would only need explicit support by houses, industry tiles, airport tiles and objects.
17:22:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i would definitely vote against such a feature then
17:22:53 <Rhamphoryncus> For single tile houses you could have a fallback of cheating and just reusing the directions
17:23:02 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus, that's ugly
17:23:14 <Rhamphoryncus> Yup, but as a fallback it works
17:23:21 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: you basically invalidate all existing newgrfs
17:23:28 <planetmaker> I'd vote against such fallback :-)
17:23:34 <planetmaker> If the NewGRF author makes it so: then it's explicit
17:23:45 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, no, I don't
17:23:50 <planetmaker> They all will continue to work
17:24:08 <planetmaker> And there's no way to add rotation other than this way
17:24:35 <planetmaker> or breaking it completely and adding 3D models. But that's worse wrt breaking stuff
17:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then add no rotation at all
17:24:47 <planetmaker> I think that argument is a very weak one, Eddi|zuHause
17:24:56 <planetmaker> As really nothing breaks
17:25:13 <planetmaker> And new features generally are only supported by new NewGRFs
17:25:20 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: transparency and "terrain slicing" can do an eqivalent job, without breaking anything
17:25:53 <planetmaker> as said: nothing breaks
17:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: using an old newgrf "breaks" the rotation. from the user's point of view
17:27:05 <planetmaker> it simply supports no rotation ;-)
17:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> a user doesn't know that
17:27:28 <planetmaker> oh, he can know that. It's a matter of how it's communicated
17:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> and then he comes to the forum
17:27:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Many dimetric games I've played have reused the same sprite for all directions. It works fine. It's not eyecandy, but it works.
17:28:03 <Rubidium> pff... we already have two rotations. Who needs any more?
17:28:03 <Eddi|zuHause> and then we tell him "either newgrf X or rotation. choose"
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17:28:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and then he will be disappointed
17:28:36 <Eddi|zuHause> because the scenario he downloaded was so interesting
17:28:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but he cannot update the grfs to a newer version
17:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> because there either isn't one, or even if there was one, updating is disabled
17:29:33 <planetmaker> Current scenarios are no argument really. As they're just savegames with NewGRFs
17:30:11 <Eddi|zuHause> which is another problem. we have this fancy grf versioning, but it's effectively useless, because the GUI doesn't support updating to "compatible" versions
17:30:14 <planetmaker> I really don't like to call them scenarios tbh :-)
17:30:49 <Rhamphoryncus> "compatible" or *compatible*? ;)
17:30:59 <planetmaker> also... I don't need more rotations ;-)
17:31:37 <Rhamphoryncus> Me either. In games that rotate I usually stick to just one so I don't get disoriented
17:32:18 <Rhamphoryncus> I do get disoriented easily though
17:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's another argument for not introducing rotations :p
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17:39:02 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> I don't have such intention. I just once did the maths to give people a number who "request" that feature ;-) <-- I started with that statement, Eddi|zuHause ;-)
17:39:42 <planetmaker> and I don't think it's a feature out of question. It "just" needs lots of dedication. And it would not invalidate the slicing or whatever you mentioned
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18:12:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'compatible' is no such thing
18:12:43 <andythenorth> it's a meaningless claim
18:14:43 <andythenorth> for as long as one newgrf can break another...
18:15:10 <andythenorth> or for as long as 'disable self if another newgrf not present' is considered to be desirable behaviour
18:16:08 <andythenorth> I find the last case insane tbh, and think the spec should say so
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18:17:09 <andythenorth> just as it's possible to write unclosed while loops - but if you do, you're considered quite an idiot
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18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24026 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 43 changes by Eskymak
18:46:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 15 changes by habell
18:46:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_AU - 14 changes by tomas4g
18:46:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
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19:35:22 <frosch123> i enter a website, then switch to a german site to get more local information, and i get a latin one ....
19:36:10 <frosch123> oh hmm, every paragraph has the same text, so i guess it just means it's not done :p
19:41:12 <frosch123> i just did not get it, but thought it was some swedish joke :p
19:43:07 <frosch123> though i think it were the finish you refused to publish euroean stuff also in german some years ago, and provided latin translations instead
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19:49:57 <planetmaker> sounds like a nice idea, frosch123, to "just" provide latin ;-)
19:57:28 <Zuu_> Any ideas for something to add to neighbours are important?
19:59:24 <__ln__> unable to parse sentence
20:00:04 <Zuu_> Last three words are the name of a game script.
20:00:58 <frosch123> you should ask somewhere where people actually play :p
20:01:16 <Zuu_> Maybe Im as bad.as Andy on picking descriptive names ;)
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20:20:15 <Zuu_> Hmm those at #tycoon claim that they haven't discused anything TTD related since 2005. I guess I should just use my imagnation or join a game server.
20:21:10 <orudge> Well, that's not quite true.
20:21:17 <orudge> But it's mostly a "chat" channel these days
20:21:21 <orudge> rather than a "TTD chat" channel.
20:21:26 <orudge> Very occasionally TTD discussion occurs. :p
20:29:02 <andythenorth> I went in there once
20:29:09 <andythenorth> it didn't seem like my kind of place
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20:29:26 <andythenorth> seemed a fair chance that I might argue with people
20:29:34 <andythenorth> or as I like to call them, 'idiots' :P
20:31:58 <frosch123> lol, zuu tried #tycoon after my comment :p
20:32:09 <frosch123> now i feel really sorry
20:32:21 <frosch123> noone should be sent to #tycoon :p
20:35:01 <Zuu_> Hehe I thought that they might be playing the game but it turned out to be an equivalent of the off-topic forum.
20:36:01 <Prof_Frink> Zuu_: Don't be a silly. We make *far* less sense.
20:37:24 <Zuu_> Sorry for overestimating you :)
20:43:25 <Zuu_> Oh,.... so that was a disconnect button. XD
20:45:17 <Zuu_> Did I told you that Im out of ideas on what to kill the last hour at the train with. :p
20:50:05 <Zuu_> Maybe I rephased "to kill some time" badly.
20:51:10 <Rhamphoryncus> uhh.. huh. Well that's amusingly wrong. Vertol in aviator set having slings? Nice. Having the occasional gmund mog as the sling for engineering supplies? Also nice. Delivering a gmond mog to an oil platform? Not so nice. ;)
20:51:44 <andythenorth> blame me for that
20:51:53 <andythenorth> I asked Pikka to add it :)
20:53:08 <Pikka> maybe they're using it to plug a hole :)
20:53:36 <Rhamphoryncus> I should join #tycoon. If you're afraid of having an argument then either I'll be completely fine.. or I'll cause a riot and be banned from the server.
20:55:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Ooh, that one looks like a tractor
20:56:56 <Rhamphoryncus> I need to con someone into making a fantasy ships newgrf. Nuclear barges that can outrun small aircraft :D
20:58:30 <V453000> im for sure not making ships newGRF :p
20:59:17 <Rhamphoryncus> Is FISH really supposed to give all ships at 1870 and have them last forever?
21:01:06 <andythenorth> is your question about an ideal world, or a 'get things done' workd?
21:01:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Conscious decision is fine with me :)
21:02:38 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm just going to amuse myself with using ferries and paddle steamers to transport oil
21:03:28 <FLHerne> Hmm..last time I played, UKRS2 Polybulk hoppers carried milk...
21:03:29 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: 1870 gave me ships to play with in my 1870-start games
21:03:37 <andythenorth> ideally I'd draw more ships :P
21:03:44 <andythenorth> it's not 1.0 yet right?
21:03:51 <andythenorth> all crimes are forgiven < 1.0
21:03:59 <FLHerne> Is this fixed in FIRS 0.7/UKRS Beta?
21:04:01 <Rhamphoryncus> I am using it so I'm not complaining :)
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21:04:24 <andythenorth> FLHerne: you have no idea of how many worms are under that can lid you're opening....
21:04:32 <Rhamphoryncus> I also have sailing ships but they expired a while back
21:04:55 <FLHerne> Cargo classes do seem a bit odd
21:05:18 <FLHerne> Some combinations seem questionable at best...
21:05:33 <Yexo> but yes, you're right, they are questionable
21:05:41 <Yexo> and there have been a lot of very long discussions about the subject
21:05:54 <planetmaker> with emphasis on _long_
21:06:03 <planetmaker> not necessarily resulting in anything ;-)
21:06:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Clearly we need to have more of them
21:06:50 <Rhamphoryncus> (The floggings will continue until morale improves.)
21:09:47 <Yexo> what is your exact problem?
21:09:58 <Yexo> rane: the length of the train in tiles
21:10:18 <Yexo> if you don't use any newgrfs, the length of every engine and wagon is half a tile
21:10:36 <Yexo> you can use it to easily see whether a vehicle fits in a certain station or not
21:10:57 <Yexo> <Yexo> what is your exact problem? <- LordAro: that was for you
21:13:33 <Zuu_> It used to be a bit more complicate, but now it just shows the length in tiles.
21:14:05 <LordAro> Yexo: "...settings_gui.cpp:124:72: error: wrong number of template arguments (2, should be 3)"
21:15:40 <LordAro> "const BaseSet<class Tbase_set, size_t Tnum_files, bool Tsearch_in_tars>* baseset; ///< View the textfile of this BaseSet."
21:17:11 <Yexo> I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
21:20:23 <LordAro> note that my usage of the 'templates' differs throughout the patch, due to my attempted fixes :)
21:23:06 <Yexo> I'll apply your patch and make some fixes
21:26:23 <LordAro> it did work before i tried to use the templates (for sound + music), so it should be fine
21:26:40 <Yexo> the testing part is for you :)
21:27:31 <morph`> 1.2.0 coming out tomorrow omg omg?
21:27:58 <Yexo> where did you hear that myth?
21:29:43 <morph`> I hoped someone would respond with "Omg how did you know?"
21:30:16 <Yexo> look at the release dates for 1.1, 1.0 and 0.7
21:30:22 <Yexo> might give you a clue :p
21:31:15 <morph`> OMG, I just found OpenTTD+Yogscast
21:31:20 <morph`> 2 of my favorite things
21:32:26 <morph`> Damn, April Fools day is so far away
21:32:50 <planetmaker> you know... there's an 1.2.0-RC2...
21:32:57 <planetmaker> and there are always nightly builds
21:33:04 <planetmaker> so... why do you wait?
21:33:10 <planetmaker> why do you care for a release date? :-)
21:33:18 <morph`> Because Im a caring person
21:33:52 <morph`> Nothing cuter on deviantart
21:37:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt classes, the discussion *did* result in agreeing they're "done" for FIRS :)
21:37:25 <andythenorth> and that we don't mangle them to support legacy vehicle sets
21:37:52 <planetmaker> yes. Actually it also led to deprecate the two related properties in NML
21:37:56 <andythenorth> and that labels are the only guaranteed support method :)
21:38:09 <andythenorth> and that classes are for future, unknown cargos, not known cargos :)
21:38:13 <planetmaker> so it had some positive effect
21:38:34 <andythenorth> and that the XOR mask was fricking insane for normal humans, however sane it seemed at the time
21:39:22 <andythenorth> but probably, milk still goes by covered hopper in UKRS 2 ;)
21:45:25 * LordAro submits patch to flyspray
21:56:43 <planetmaker> Someone found frosch's list of wanted features :-)
21:57:14 <frosch123> yeah, proscription also seems to work for patches :p
21:57:48 <LordAro> only took me a couple of evenings :)
21:59:01 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
22:05:55 <andythenorth> I don't much like this:
22:06:04 <andythenorth> from pixa.pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar
22:06:11 <andythenorth> pixa.pixa seems redundant
22:06:30 <valhallasw> andythenorth: it is.
22:06:46 <andythenorth> other than splitting all my code (undesirable)
22:06:56 <valhallasw> andythenorth: you can solve it by having from pixa import ham, eggs, foo, bar in pixa/__init__.py
22:07:16 <valhallasw> at least, I'm guessing you have pixa.py in a subdir called pixa
22:07:27 <valhallasw> or even 'from pixa import *' in the __init__.py
22:07:35 <andythenorth> import * is bad form?
22:07:51 <valhallasw> it's ok for an __init__.py
22:08:00 <valhallasw> although I prefer the explicit import
22:08:29 <valhallasw> but especially if it's a single import it's OK, as it is clear where the names in the namespace are imported from
22:20:16 <Arafangion> valhallasw: Trouble is... *today* it's a single import, *tomorrow* you need a new module.
22:21:41 <Arafangion> 'import *' is generally very much frowned upon.
22:23:39 <valhallasw> Arafangion: import * is very generally used for __init__.py
22:25:38 <valhallasw> the stdlib always uses explicit import as far as I can see, but e.g. django uses import * very often for __init__s
22:26:15 <Arafangion> valhallasw: Ah, django - I don't have much experience with that, but I'll conceed you could do far worse than have import * in __init__.py
22:27:05 <valhallasw> it's somewhat annoying if you don't have a good debugger/IDE, but it's not that much of a pain - and it's significantly less maintenance effort
22:27:10 <valhallasw> for django, that is
22:27:42 <valhallasw> then again, explicit is better than implicit [/zen of python]
22:28:21 <Arafangion> valhallasw: If there are lots of things I want from a given python module, I tend to prefer the 'import whatever as wh', and optionally followed by: 'foo, bar, baz = wh.foo, wh.bar, wh.baz', although I'm undecided about the latter.
22:29:14 <valhallasw> Arafangion: I generally do 'import whatever' followed by 'from whatever import foo, bar, baz' in those cases
22:29:52 <Arafangion> That's not so bad either, I should find out just how much slower that is.
22:31:16 <Arafangion> A big concern with 'import *''s, is what if they define a global you have come to expect, or redefine something from another module that you expected to have.
22:32:54 <Arafangion> Eg, you could confuse os.walk with os.path.walk.
22:33:11 <valhallasw> Arafangion: I'm guessing it's not much slower, as a second import does not run any code. It might be different if you use import hooks, though.
22:33:25 <Arafangion> valhallasw: Yeah, I have all my code in a .zip :)
22:34:00 <Arafangion> But the second import does more stuff, it differs if eg, foo, bar, baz are submodules.
22:34:08 <Arafangion> My form wouldn't import them, but yours would.
22:36:54 <Arafangion> But my biggest, biggest concern, really, is that * imports tend to cause too much confusion.
22:37:02 <Arafangion> Especially with duplicate symbol names.
22:37:38 <Arafangion> Especially if someone, somewhere redefines str(), which gets import *'ed into a module, which you then import *.
22:37:44 <Arafangion> Just gets really messy.
22:38:30 <valhallasw> Yep. But again, that mainly is a problem for generic code, not so much for __init__s.
22:41:15 <Arafangion> True, but do consider that the main thing that brought this on is the annoyance of having a pixa.pixa setup.
22:41:47 <Arafangion> Which is a somewhat... Odd setup.
22:41:53 <Arafangion> Yikes, look at the time!
22:42:01 * Arafangion gets ready for work! Thanks for the chat! :)
22:42:14 <valhallasw> time for bed here :-)
23:17:32 <Eddi|zuHause> why not just rename pixa/pixa.py to pixa/__init__.py?
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