IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-06
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04:26:33 <Pikka> good morning mister MacK
04:29:51 <DanMacK> Still evening here :)
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06:12:38 * Pikka accidentally HOVS tracking table
06:14:15 <Pikka> what does "where is it to" mean? :D
06:14:28 <andythenorth> bristolian for 'where?"
06:14:43 <andythenorth> like 'where is chipping sodbury to?'
06:14:56 <andythenorth> to which the answer is 'chipping sodbury'
06:14:57 <Pikka> haven't worked out costs yet but I can put it up :)
06:15:11 <andythenorth> sir ozlington has made shunting
06:15:41 <andythenorth> I am scared newgrf will rain on his parade :(
06:15:51 <Pikka> except pretty much the entirety of newgrf relies on the consist not changing outside the depot
06:17:25 <andythenorth> I turned on auto-refit for HEQS trams; they change length in stations
06:17:38 <andythenorth> think it causes an assert, or at least ottd is sad about it
06:17:55 <Pikka> sounds like a very bad idea (tm) :)
06:18:00 * andythenorth needs to turn it off :P
06:20:53 <Pikka> apologies for presenting textations in graphical form
06:22:58 <andythenorth> will you keep current size of graphics?
06:23:22 <Pikka> they will be more in line with the UKRS2 sizes than TTD sizes
06:23:51 <Pikka> I'll probably start with the titan or regent and send it over for you to compare to banditry.
06:25:46 <Pikka> although I'm supposed to be working on UKRS2 today... lalala
06:26:00 <Pikka> starting projects is easy!
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07:09:35 <Pikka> I have a costs, they look about right...
07:10:30 <andythenorth> I have a spritesheet of coils for STEL and PAPR
07:10:35 <andythenorth> they look about a wrong
07:14:46 <NGC3982> Pikka: what is that? :)
07:18:32 * andythenorth ponders curling that and turning it into config data for a set
07:18:39 <andythenorth> parsing the bitmap would be fun
07:19:40 * andythenorth has a graphics library and is not afraid to use it!
07:19:47 <andythenorth> new shiny toy syndrome :P
07:21:15 * andythenorth decides writing a text-recognition tool might not be a good project
07:22:06 <andythenorth> if it was a fixed width font...would be easier
07:22:17 <andythenorth> just go in regular increments and see what shape pixel you got :P
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07:37:09 <andythenorth> what colour is paper?
07:37:19 <Pikka> depends on what colour it is
07:37:50 <Pikka> either white or brown or nondescript, if we're talking TTD loads :P
07:54:35 <andythenorth> they must be wrapping a big parcel
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09:06:34 <andythenorth> hey, it's pikka!
09:07:30 <Nat_aS> I'm late but, cover the paper with a tarp :P
09:07:35 <Nat_aS> to keep it dry in the rain
09:08:12 <andythenorth> Nat_aS: your solution is a good one - for people who don't have a pixel generator in their back pocket ;)
09:08:43 <Nat_aS> but white is probably the best way to communicate to the player visualy that the train is carrying paper.
09:08:53 <andythenorth> for my next trick, I make those appear for all lengths 1/8 - 8/8
09:08:56 <andythenorth> with loading states
09:09:14 <andythenorth> then comp them to ve-hicles
09:38:52 <Pikka> there's a town in this test game called "Tendon"
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09:56:48 <Pikka> gonna run a 1.2 server peter? :}
09:56:59 <Pikka> gonna have bandit ready for 1.2 andy? :P
10:00:23 <peter1138> not played for years
10:00:29 <peter1138> since the ukrs 1 days
10:00:58 <Pikka> but now it's the UKRS2 days
10:02:04 <Pikka> it's better than anything else out there
10:02:26 <peter1138> the never-finished one
10:02:58 <Pikka> did you see what I showed andy earlier and what I've been doing all afternoon when I should have been doing UKRS2?
10:05:27 <peter1138> then i might have to play
10:05:41 <Pikka> but it needs bandit for the trucks
10:06:24 <peter1138> andythenorth, hurry
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12:21:22 <Pikka> well if it isn't andythenorth
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12:35:27 <andythenorth> it isn't andythenorth
12:36:33 <Pikka> then to whom am I sprechen?
12:37:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: question came up whether your vehicle sounds could be reused in a GPL project
12:39:08 <Pikka> well, they're mostly sourced from places which I don't remember, so...
12:39:34 <Pikka> I'm happy for them to be used, but if you care about where they're originally from you might not want to use them.
12:41:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: vehicle sounds are one thing I've considered paying money for
12:41:31 <andythenorth> royalty free is usually cheap
12:41:42 <andythenorth> finding sounds is time + hassle, often the rights on them are unclear
12:41:50 * andythenorth has found a lot of sounds for games in the past
12:42:23 <andythenorth> $3 for a sound, or spend 30 mins looking for one?
12:42:35 <andythenorth> dunno if sound dogs license is GPL compatible thought :o
12:43:16 <Pikka> tbh I find the sounds need so much editing to fit TTD that you can start off with just about any old crap :)
12:43:18 <andythenorth> this said, I could never get sounds to compile with grfcodec mac, so I never pursued the idea :P
12:43:31 <Pikka> I hope you're not adding running sounds to road vehicles :P
12:43:46 <andythenorth> I tried adding a bulldozer noise to HEQS
12:44:08 <andythenorth> HEQS might all currently sound like buses, not sure
12:44:22 <Eddi|zuHause> my main problem is that there's no appropriate startup whistle for <1950's electrics
12:45:18 <Pikka> what should it sound like, eddi?
12:57:47 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: well, it can sound pretty much like a steam engine's whistle, but i'd rather have a short blow instead of the long TTD one
13:01:15 <Pikka> well, I could give you a whistle, but if you're worried about the provenance...
13:01:30 <Pikka> because I have no idea where the original sounds I created these from came from :)
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13:08:37 <Pikka> I'd say get one of those wooden train whistles for kids, go into an echoey room and record it ;)
13:11:09 <MINM> doesn't andy have a toddler? surely he should be able to acquire one
13:12:39 <andythenorth> I used to have an awesome tone generator app
13:12:47 <Mark> Hurrdurr, can you edit a .grf-file?
13:13:04 <andythenorth> it let you compose sounds from ~8 different tones, with generators from sine, sawtooth etc
13:13:14 <andythenorth> and one generator could modulate another
13:13:30 <Mark> Just a question to everyone. :)
13:13:37 <andythenorth> then you slice out a bit of tone, and visit Audacity with it...
13:13:58 <Pikka> yes, most people currently talking can I think.
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13:14:16 <Pikka> yes Hurrdurr, but it's better to start with something with a bit of timbre
13:14:32 <Mark> andythenorth: So the answer is no, you can't?
13:16:11 <Mark> andythenorth: Yer, edit a downloade NewGRF.
13:16:42 <andythenorth> Mark: Hurrdurr was trolling you
13:17:02 <andythenorth> Pikka: that's nice ^^ what does it do? :D
13:17:27 <Mark> Just edit some parameters like weight, torque and top speed on trains like.
13:17:50 <andythenorth> Mark: you can decompile the grf with grfcodec, edit the resulting nfo (uncommented hex), and recompile it
13:17:52 <Pikka> it voyages, andythenorth
13:17:56 <andythenorth> people do that reasonably often
13:18:20 <Mark> andythenorth: oh, sweet.
13:19:14 * Pikka wonders what Mark had in mind
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13:46:52 <Belugas> sun is out today. frigid, but at least, it's sunny!
13:47:29 <__ln__> it can't be out there, it's over here
13:47:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see it...
13:48:05 <Belugas> ho? so... there are now two known suns in the system!
13:48:13 <Belugas> that or...i'm on another planet :)
13:48:22 <Belugas> on another solar system!
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16:02:36 * NGC3982 fails to find PETER1138 in the new general catalogue
16:17:45 <NGC3982> mozart all up in this bitch.
16:17:50 <xiong> *there is another system*
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16:44:31 <frosch123> how many of you have a russian supermarket in their neighbourhood?
16:45:06 <frosch123> well, one opened next to me
16:45:34 <frosch123> everything is labelled russian in there :p
16:45:36 <andythenorth> can you buy votes there?
16:46:51 <frosch123> does "bargaining" count as "voting"?
16:47:15 <andythenorth> only if you get to be the russian president at the end of the process :P
16:48:24 <frosch123> would that result in a newgrf oligarchy?
16:48:41 <andythenorth> is there one already?
16:48:57 <frosch123> we already have rationed ponies
16:49:13 <andythenorth> do ponies smoke?
16:49:20 <andythenorth> or is that bad for their health?
16:50:00 <frosch123> smoking is only good for elephants and rhinos
16:50:02 * andythenorth ponders attempting the newgrf smoke patch
16:50:07 <andythenorth> I did write a newgrf cb once
16:50:13 <andythenorth> the inverse of 'can wagon be attached'
16:50:24 <andythenorth> it worked and everything. it languishes on fs somewhere :P
16:50:31 <frosch123> (yellow teeth make them less attractive for hunting)
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18:15:28 <NGC3982> does delivering passengers to oil rigs stimulate the oil production?
18:16:09 <planetmaker> Nope. You also don't get soylent green
18:17:05 <NGC3982> i was hoping for that.
18:17:35 <planetmaker> write a NewGRF which does exactly that ;-)
18:17:50 <NGC3982> i was actually ranting about on that last week
18:18:09 <NGC3982> but then, with passengers stimulating all the normal industries.
18:31:33 <Alberth> NGC3982: /me has been pondering about that too; could be fun
18:36:38 <NGC3982> sure, it aint that realistic
18:36:48 <NGC3982> but it will make small maps extremely more vibrant
18:36:53 <NGC3982> as far as im concerned.
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18:43:35 <NGC3982> Alberth: how advanced is building such a grf?
18:44:02 <NGC3982> im more or less a newbie on anything in code. i write some C#, but i have no conception on how compilation and stuff is made or executed.
18:44:52 <andythenorth> tip for the wise
18:45:03 <andythenorth> 'cept the wise will already know
18:45:06 <andythenorth> sequences[i] = PixaSequence(points=coil_load),
18:45:12 <andythenorth> where sequences is a dict
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24017 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 1 changes by Zuu
18:45:21 <andythenorth> will cause much pondering
18:45:32 <andythenorth> that was 20 mins to debug :(
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18:54:56 <xiong> I have some rather specific ideas about the initial distributions of towns, cities, and industries when starting a new game. Would it be possible to adjust these by writing a NewGRF or would a patch be required?
18:56:47 <andythenorth> somewhat the former, possibly the latter, possibly NoGo
18:57:08 <frosch123> nothing can influence the position of towns on map creation
18:57:21 <frosch123> newgrfs can influence the position of industries
18:57:30 <frosch123> nogo can influence town growth in the game
18:58:03 <andythenorth> can nogo influence much at map creation time? or does it rely on a created map?
18:59:16 <frosch123> nogo runs after map creation, but before the game starts
18:59:26 <frosch123> so it can change some stuff after map creation
18:59:42 <frosch123> e.g. it could create a road network
19:01:00 <Alberth> NGC3982: nml is simpler than C#, and 'compilation' is as simple as nmlc foo.nml :)
19:03:26 <xiong> Nothing? That seems extreme.
19:03:46 <frosch123> well, none of the usual ottd plugins
19:03:53 <frosch123> source code can of course change stuff
19:04:04 <frosch123> and of course you can make a scenario :p
19:04:23 <xiong> I see 'TerraGenesis'. Does that merely create landforms or does it also allocate towns and industries?
19:04:39 <frosch123> it only does the height
19:05:05 <xiong> I think there's sufficient control over that.
19:05:11 <frosch123> maybe also sea, if you consider that part of height
19:05:38 <xiong> I'm only concerned about towns and industries.
19:06:21 <xiong> Perhaps it would be enough to write a NewGRF to *evaluate* town and industry distribution after creation; one could then simply chuck it and try again.
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19:07:19 <frosch123> oh, i think you can write a nogo script which scores the map, sends the result to the admin port, and some external device on the admin port triggers a new game
19:08:20 <NGC3982> Alberth: where do i look for examples of "setting an industry to <accept thing> and therefor <produce another>"?
19:08:46 <frosch123> google for nml tutorial
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19:10:08 * andythenorth ponders registering for simuscape
19:10:27 <andythenorth> NGC3982: opengfx+ industries might help you
19:10:31 <andythenorth> or manual industries grf
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19:14:33 <xiong> frosch123, That's exactly the outline of my idea; thanks.
19:14:56 <xiong> I appreciate the thought, andythenorth; but I'm not sure that's my direction.
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19:38:35 <Alberth> adding some violence to the game?
19:41:05 <andythenorth> that's for the new disasters framework I think
19:41:18 <andythenorth> vehicles can destroy buildings
19:41:23 <andythenorth> bridges collapse
19:41:57 <andythenorth> how did it get established that micro-management is bad?
19:42:43 <Alberth> did you know Python does not really support nested classes? :)
19:43:04 <supermop> i like micromanagement
19:43:30 <Alberth> micro management is mostly bad because it scales badly, perhaps?
19:43:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: is that wrt to some of the classes-in-classes I have?
19:43:50 <supermop> i want to be able to fire my bus driver if he disobeys the timetable
19:43:54 <andythenorth> Alberth ach, is it a problem I should be fixing?
19:45:26 <Alberth> I would, I am not sure how much of it works by sheer luck, and how much is supported
19:46:04 <andythenorth> so I just move the class defs out, change any self.fooclass stuff
19:46:09 <andythenorth> should still work
19:46:14 <Alberth> and your editor does not show trailing white space :)
19:46:19 <andythenorth> I could teach it
19:49:04 <andythenorth> found an option: Strip trailing whitespace
19:49:07 <andythenorth> think it does it on save
19:49:24 <andythenorth> I should disable 'force newline at end' :P
19:50:47 <Alberth> nah, EOL at end is good :)
19:51:41 <Alberth> (assuming 'end' is EOF)
19:52:00 <Alberth> vi does that for 30 years already :)
19:57:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth, you're also using TextWrangler, aren't you?
19:57:26 <planetmaker> Kinda since I use that, that option works quite nicely for me ;-)
19:57:28 <andythenorth> you didn't happen to teach it nml did you?
19:57:45 <planetmaker> Caused on some devzone projects quite some whitespace commits :-P
19:57:52 <planetmaker> no, I didn't yet :-(
19:58:14 <andythenorth> I read the start of the docs on syntax colouring, ran away
19:58:26 <andythenorth> I use ANSI C for nml
19:59:19 <planetmaker> :-) yeah... the same for me with the syntax colouring texts
20:18:32 <Alberth> andy: you can gain a lot of readability by a little more careful vertical alignment, I think
20:24:04 * planetmaker aligns andy vertically and reads him
20:27:57 * Alberth always wondered why all stars of the universe are in a flat plane
20:28:56 <Alberth> andy: and a lot of variable documentation comments could be @ivar epydocs :)
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21:12:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> how many of you have a russian supermarket in their neighbourhood? <-- that was called "russenmagazin" over here... but it kinda disappeared in the 1990s :p
21:13:09 <frosch123> well, the cookies i bought were crap
21:13:31 <frosch123> i put them in the oven for 15 minutes, and they tasted better :)
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21:50:22 <supermop> do maglevs or monorails have different acelleration in game?
21:51:10 <supermop> is this a property of the track type or the trains?
21:51:17 <frosch123> maglev have no friction and no tractive effort; only power
21:51:29 <frosch123> it's a property of the track type
21:51:57 <planetmaker> track types choose an acceleration model. Monorail... has it's own iirc
21:52:12 <frosch123> says only maglev is different
21:52:31 <andythenorth> 1/8 long cargo sprites
21:52:44 <frosch123> monorail has a different curve speed modifier though
21:53:07 <supermop> so if someone wanted a set with say rubber tired trains, or alweg monorails, is there a model to ascribe to that track type to give it different behaviour from steel wheel on steel rail?
21:53:12 * andythenorth just sped up pixa by 1/8 :P
21:53:49 <frosch123> supermop: rubber tired trains would be a property of the train
21:53:58 <frosch123> i.e. their tractive effort coefficient would be higher
21:53:59 <planetmaker> supermop, different wheels don't change the accel model. Just the TE
21:55:24 <supermop> so if i wanted to say 'these monorails, metros, people-movers, etc have rubber tires so they accelerate faster, can better negotiate steep grades etc'
21:55:45 <supermop> i would do that by just giving all of those vehicles a higher TE?
21:56:23 <supermop> is te set by new grf or automatically calculated in game?
21:56:40 <planetmaker> it's a property you have to set as newgrf author
21:58:19 <supermop> so monorail doesnt have any inherent differences from rail?
21:58:40 <frosch123> trains can drive faster in curves
21:59:03 <frosch123> see "curve speed advantage multiplier" on the railtype property page
21:59:30 <supermop> is that alterable in the railtype newgrf?
21:59:41 * andythenorth wonders how pixa can go faster
21:59:53 * andythenorth suspects severe lack of optimisation :P
22:00:08 <supermop> so i can adjust the amount of curve bonus it gets?
22:00:59 <frosch123> and you know everything which can be changed about acceleration
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22:40:53 <NGC3982> is there any way for me to move large quantities of vehichles into a new group?
22:46:47 <NGC3982> i cant get the autoreplace to work
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22:49:23 <planetmaker> NGC3982: from what you sho, the autoreplace is active
22:49:38 <planetmaker> trains need to be able to visit depots though
22:50:18 <NGC3982> i sent them to depot, clicked the start button, and it ..just sits there.
22:50:21 <planetmaker> hm... though maybe the error is: you can only replace diesel by electric in an electric depot
22:50:30 <planetmaker> the sh40 is electric
22:50:59 <NGC3982> of course, i dont have electric rail.
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23:53:24 <Rhamphoryncus> That's a little strange. My grasshopper slows down in tunnels.
23:53:59 <Eddi|zuHause> too high wind resistance?
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