IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-03-05
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00:59:08 <Rhamphoryncus> glx: doesn't say what styles is for and afaict styles is what makes it a top-level block
01:00:32 <glx> but that was the link to the old doc I think
01:01:22 <glx> I just gave you the link to the current doc
01:01:51 <glx> town name block in NML doc
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08:01:41 *** planetmaker changes topic to "1.1.5, 1.2.0-RC2 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version, ever | English only"
08:05:42 <andythenorth> moin planetmaker
08:12:42 <andythenorth> starting n tasks (python) for embarrassingly parallel work
08:12:51 <andythenorth> python? make? shell?
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09:05:34 <andythenorth> bonjour le Pikka
09:06:31 <Pikka> hi I'm Toni Babelony and what is GPL
09:08:13 <andythenorth> Chateauneuf du Pape!
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09:17:12 <andythenorth> oeuf sur la plat
09:18:13 <andythenorth> it's a script that outputs those
09:19:16 <andythenorth> not generally useful, but specifically useful when you want to know the colour of a pixel and cba to match by eye
09:19:54 <Pikka> guess it depends on your graphics program, I can just ctrl-click :P
09:20:47 <andythenorth> but when writing out pixel sequences in code (or colour shifting them)...I prefer this :)
09:21:09 * andythenorth might have cargo sprite generation working later today
09:22:01 <andythenorth> for each length 1/8 - 8/8, for each cargo, it will spit out a spritesheet with 4 load states
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09:23:28 <andythenorth> it also now loads the cargo sprites from bitmap files. Writing them out by hand is....fun for a bit.
09:24:49 <andythenorth> Pikka: do you use photostrop, or the other one?
09:25:07 <Pikka> for pixellation, at least
09:25:44 <andythenorth> layered files (xcf) ?
09:26:05 <Pikka> I keep meaning to get into photoshop...
09:26:11 <Pikka> not that other one, another other one
09:26:52 <andythenorth> I've found a psd-parsing module that seems to be able to work with layers
09:27:01 <andythenorth> which might cut out a bit more of the arsing around
09:28:07 <Pikka> my graphics program is over 10 years old! :D
09:28:33 <andythenorth> DanMacK has drawn many more sprites than me, to a better standard, with MS Paint :P
09:30:50 <Pikka> andy are you going to generate horses with pixa? :)
09:31:51 <Pikka> or at least the horse-drawn wagons
09:32:04 <Pikka> for the putting of non-generated horses in front of
09:32:05 <andythenorth> can I use Zeph's instead? :P
09:32:16 <Pikka> zephs are a bit big IMO :P
09:32:25 <Pikka> I could have a go at a horse
09:32:33 <andythenorth> wagons are probably best drawn
09:32:37 <andythenorth> they're so...weeny
09:32:55 <andythenorth> can composite loads on
09:33:18 <Pikka> I could draw horses for HOVS and then you could use them for BANDIT
09:33:34 <andythenorth> horse drawn UKRS?
09:33:54 * andythenorth once invented vehicle type 'flock of sheep' :P
09:34:32 <planetmaker> carrying capacity: 1 bale of wool?
09:35:48 <andythenorth> planetmaker: any idea if make can start parallel build tasks?
09:36:04 <andythenorth> I know it has -j option, but that might be more magical than I can use
09:36:07 <planetmaker> a makefile does that automatically if used properly
09:36:30 <planetmaker> the -j option usually is only to *limit* the parallel threads
09:36:38 <andythenorth> presumably I need to segment my build scripts to work that way
09:36:48 <andythenorth> i.e. currently there's one monolithic python build script
09:37:03 <planetmaker> from my experience, things like NML as python scripts are 100% single-threaded
09:37:29 <planetmaker> target: dep1 dep2 dep3
09:37:32 <andythenorth> graphics generation however is embarrassingly parallel, and could be divided between n separate python processes
09:37:42 <planetmaker> is typical makefile usage to build dep1 dep2 and dep3 in parallel
09:38:00 <planetmaker> but they *MUST* be independent of eachother
09:38:06 <planetmaker> or that of course fails
09:38:14 <andythenorth> well it's worth a try
09:38:26 * andythenorth will remember it for later
09:38:44 <planetmaker> NewGRF building as it's now, there's not much to parallelise
09:39:01 <planetmaker> If you use something like pixa to create graphics: there's a lot to parallelise, though
09:39:06 <planetmaker> each could be done independently
09:39:26 <andythenorth> ogfx xcf extraction maybe same
09:40:03 <planetmaker> that is actually parallelised on the makefile level. But fails due to gimp instances messing with eachother
09:40:26 <planetmaker> if we use what frosch suggested, the xcf2png programme, it's a solved problem
09:40:32 <planetmaker> (and if that works in parallel)
09:40:56 <andythenorth> pixa will use 100% of one of my CPU thread units
09:43:26 * Pikka basks in the glow of his 8
09:43:53 * andythenorth basks in the glow of his already too-hot laptop :P
09:44:29 <Pikka> it's actually very hard to get fewer than 4 these days, I've just been costing a new computer for my grandmother
09:45:05 <Pikka> even the $50 celeron is HT dual core...
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09:56:35 <andythenorth> why does Toni care if people modify his grf and distribute?
09:57:32 <andythenorth> Pikka: you haven't drunk the GPL koolaid, any particular reason for you?
09:58:11 <Pikka> I don't know why he does, but releasing under the GPL is a pretty silly thing to do if he does.
09:58:41 <Pikka> I'd rather keep the option to tell people no, I guess andy. :)
09:58:52 <andythenorth> can't argue with that
09:59:49 <Pikka> also a not negligible number of things I release are still based on the original TTD graphics, so they're not mine to GPL in the first place. :P
10:00:12 <andythenorth> that is a killer point
10:00:31 * andythenorth would like to avoid a repeat ever of the silly CanSet situation though :)
10:00:34 <Pikka> but little grfs I don't really care about I'll usually put under the gpl.
10:00:44 <planetmaker> well... it's not actually a killer point.
10:00:56 <planetmaker> Things based on them must not be released. You'd be liable this way or another
10:01:02 <planetmaker> Unless you have written permission
10:01:34 <planetmaker> If you don't need that, then... GPL would make your stuff work beyond your death
10:01:51 <planetmaker> or loss of interest
10:01:58 <andythenorth> GPL based on copyright infringement is no GPL though :)
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10:03:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: they'll never find him anyway, he is like the scarlet pimpernel
10:03:36 <Pikka> or the black fingernail
10:04:16 * Pikka notes to self: add "The Old Cock" to the pub names in TaI
10:04:29 <andythenorth> you have pub names? :o
10:04:34 <planetmaker> Sometimes I think we should only allow GPL-based content on bananas ;-)
10:04:52 <andythenorth> no need, just comply with takedown notices if it ever comes to that
10:05:18 * Pikka is willing to take his chances
10:05:24 * andythenorth has been using the Town part of TaI recently
10:05:33 <Pikka> I imagine if they ever come after TaI they'll go after OpenTTD first. :P
10:05:59 <andythenorth> think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P
10:06:26 <andythenorth> we can always start a legal fund, we might get as much as....$500
10:06:42 <Pikka> I don't think it's going to happen either way.
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10:07:05 <Pikka> and what do you think, andy?
10:07:20 <andythenorth> if they discover that Rubidium is secretly a millionaire, they might go after him...
10:07:21 <Pikka> accepting submissions of graphics for TaI, btw. :P
10:07:35 <Pikka> *and what do you think about TaI, andy. :P
10:07:42 <andythenorth> houses or industries?
10:08:15 <andythenorth> I like TaI, it's original style, has lots of character, seems to just work
10:08:33 <andythenorth> houses are not so much my thing
10:08:39 <andythenorth> I drew one for opengfx once
10:08:55 <Pikka> I'll get back into it soon. need proper 19th century houses
10:09:09 <Pikka> and industries, but they're fairly well covered.
10:09:24 <andythenorth> their are enough industry parts lying around now
10:09:33 <Pikka> and I'm not adding that many
10:09:34 <andythenorth> most of my new ones are made out of bits of old ones
10:10:00 <Pikka> are fertiliser and fmsp the same thing?
10:10:12 <Pikka> I'm going to add a fertiliser factory to TaI
10:10:13 <andythenorth> they have the same game effect
10:10:17 <Pikka> that makes fertiliser out of nothing :D
10:10:29 <andythenorth> nitrogen fixing process?
10:10:34 <andythenorth> deliver electricity :P
10:10:37 <andythenorth> lots of electricity
10:11:08 <Pikka> anyway, it will be the "interesting" mechanism I've been looking for for farms and forests.
10:11:23 * andythenorth wants to extend the map array, to store electricity value on each tile
10:11:49 <andythenorth> items on the tile can have +ve or -ve effect on electricity values
10:11:49 * planetmaker thinks that town sizes / growth should be taken out of TAI and put in a separate but to-be-used-with-it game script
10:12:05 <andythenorth> electricity values propogate over n tiles
10:12:52 <planetmaker> NewGRFs are about controlling the single entities. Towns are global entities
10:13:09 <Pikka> currently I'd guess about 80% of people miss out on the town growth limits, because they use TaI with another house set.
10:13:14 <planetmaker> Global entities are for game scripts
10:13:33 <Pikka> if I took the growth limits out of the town set and put them in a game script, that number would change to about 100%
10:13:33 <planetmaker> And another 50% complain that towns don't grow
10:13:59 <Pikka> I need to improve the documentation and the feedback in-game (like by adding those town halls)
10:14:02 <planetmaker> NewGRFs have no interface for that while GameScripts are designed to handle exactly that
10:14:36 <planetmaker> When a NewGRF is asked to "grow town" it should also do that
10:14:41 <andythenorth> planetmaker: but we currently have no clean interface between newgrf and NoGo afaik?
10:14:55 <andythenorth> I missed that :)
10:14:57 <planetmaker> or rather: what interface do you need?
10:15:05 <planetmaker> NewGRFs provided houses
10:15:13 <planetmaker> Scripts provide town growth conditions
10:15:23 <andythenorth> but the town growth conditions depend on the type of town
10:15:26 <andythenorth> as do the house choices
10:15:37 <andythenorth> so who has proper domain over that? newgrf or NoGo?
10:15:43 <andythenorth> and how do they communicate?
10:15:46 <Pikka> planetmaker; afaic this argument is like the one about the production mechanisms in PBI/TaI Industries
10:15:47 <andythenorth> TownControl registers?
10:16:14 <planetmaker> Pikka: not sure what you mean. Can you refresh my memory?
10:16:25 * andythenorth was unconvinced by any of the available arguments last time NoGo + newgrf were discussed, including his own
10:16:26 <Pikka> the production limits are integral to the industry sets, if you take them out the grf becomes pointless
10:16:40 <andythenorth> that's ok, production is clearly internal to an industry
10:16:45 <andythenorth> closure is the grey area :P
10:17:04 <Pikka> well, deciding whether a house can be built is integral to a house? ;)
10:17:25 <planetmaker> whether a particular house can be built: yes
10:17:48 <planetmaker> but it should not decide yes/no on whether to build anything
10:17:51 <andythenorth> but town expansion....global
10:18:04 <Pikka> well, it doesn't decide yes/no on whether to build anything
10:18:12 <andythenorth> global because it then opens the possibility of scripted scenarios, which might be rather fun to play
10:18:24 <planetmaker> now, that's playing words, Pikka :-)
10:18:56 <planetmaker> TaI clearly decides to not build houses anymore for certain date / town combinations
10:19:06 <planetmaker> which lead to ... endless wastelands of roads
10:19:23 <Pikka> only if you play flat maps and grid roads :)
10:19:55 <planetmaker> roads will be built, if no house can be built but the town is supposed to grow
10:20:07 <planetmaker> Thus the problem is independent of map style or road style
10:20:40 <planetmaker> Thus when I play with TaI I regularilly end up with this road wasteland
10:20:51 <andythenorth> so how would the NewGRF communicate to NoGo that no houses can be built for this town, when NoGo calls grow_town() or such?
10:20:52 <planetmaker> (yes, I play mountainous, rough maps only)
10:21:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not a NewGRF decision to not build any house. Or should not be
10:21:35 <andythenorth> but houses have availability cb
10:21:37 <planetmaker> The game script decides which town is supposed to grow
10:21:44 <andythenorth> but no house may be available
10:21:47 <planetmaker> yes. And the NewGRF should always make one available
10:21:58 <andythenorth> but that's not required by NewGRF spec....
10:21:59 <planetmaker> that's then a NewGRF bug or shortcoming
10:22:19 <andythenorth> so NewGRF spec needs rewriting to accommodate NoGo....
10:22:30 <andythenorth> it's same as cleaning up cargo classes mess
10:22:47 <planetmaker> It just means that the NewGRF has to behave sanely basically
10:22:50 <Rhamphoryncus> heya andy, planetmaker
10:22:52 <andythenorth> spec as in 'how to use it' rather than 'code works like this'
10:23:01 <andythenorth> the conventions etc
10:23:25 <andythenorth> like python works if you ignore PEP-8, but if you want to work in a python project with others, not using PEP-8 gets you kicked around
10:23:25 <Rhamphoryncus> I've only skimmed but have you looked at multiprocessing?
10:23:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: NewGRFs *cannot* control town growth. House NewGRFs can *only* refuse to build a house. Which means towns will grow roads. And roads. And roads And ...
10:23:33 <planetmaker> That's like this since TTD
10:23:54 <Pikka> planetmaker: sounds like something that can be improved in OpenTTD then :)
10:23:55 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: please search the archives for multicore discussions
10:24:09 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's solved. It's done by game scripts
10:24:29 <andythenorth> does game script query the newgrf house availabilty cb first?
10:24:33 <Rhamphoryncus> Funny thing: Guido van Rossum (creator of python) now works for google and the work he does for them doesn't use PEP-8
10:24:35 <planetmaker> They have all means at their hands. If something is missing for town control, they should get it. Not house NewGRFs
10:24:38 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: it was a simple question
10:24:46 <planetmaker> house NewGRFs are for houses :-) Not towns :-P
10:24:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I actually meant to comment yesterday but I missed him
10:25:01 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: it was a simple answer
10:25:27 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so it's an issue of proper domain - but to make it work there might need to be new code + new conventions
10:25:34 <andythenorth> and it risks limiting authors
10:25:53 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: is multiprocessing a python module?
10:25:54 <planetmaker> NewGRFs never controlled town growth, andythenorth
10:25:59 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: yes
10:26:13 <Pikka> are AIs and game scripts the same thing?
10:26:21 <Rhamphoryncus> it wraps fork in an API similar to threading
10:26:25 <planetmaker> not the same thing, but they share a lot, Pikka
10:26:30 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus oh yes, I looked at it yesterday, it's the one that works with the GIL? might be overkill for my problem....not sure
10:26:44 <planetmaker> there are things which are AI only and others which are GS only
10:26:45 <andythenorth> oh no, this is the one that sidesteps the GIL
10:26:52 <planetmaker> an AI can never act as company_deity :-)
10:27:25 <Rhamphoryncus> and it's part of the stdlib now which obviously makes it easier to acquire
10:27:35 <planetmaker> AI and GS are written both in squirrel and many functions are shared, though
10:28:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: try another case
10:28:08 <andythenorth> change primary industry production: NewGRF or NoGo?
10:28:42 <Pikka> clearly the obvious solution is to remove all distinctions between AIs, game scripts and newgrfs. :P
10:29:08 <planetmaker> Pikka: not quite. They serve different purposes
10:29:24 <Pikka> that is, to make a file format that can include any of the above and can only be loaded by the player as a single entity. :)
10:29:25 <planetmaker> When game scripts were devised, yes, we thought about this and the issues
10:29:41 <andythenorth> <node>for<node >i<node>in<node>foo<node>:<node>stuff</node></node></node></node></node>
10:29:43 <planetmaker> And to keep it separate for a reason: flexibility
10:30:08 <Pikka> there's flexibility and there's simplicity
10:30:13 <planetmaker> The single objects (houses, industries, vehicles...) are established via NewGRF. But they have local logic and influence only
10:30:39 <andythenorth> do we have NoGo bound to specific scenarios yet?
10:30:42 <planetmaker> The way the game works, that's global (towns growing, new industries, ..), that's for game script
10:31:04 <planetmaker> Keeping it separate allows really different games with the same game objects (NewGRFs) beging used
10:31:51 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's no issue to offer a related set of game scripts and NewGRFs which are supposed to work with eachother
10:32:00 <andythenorth> it's also going to lead to some entertaining drama between NewGRF authors and NoGo authors :D
10:32:07 <planetmaker> And it would be great. But making it monolithic would be counterproductive
10:32:10 <andythenorth> 'plz can I haz feature xyz'
10:32:11 <Pikka> of course it's an issue, planetmaker
10:32:58 <planetmaker> it's easier, if separate
10:33:40 <Pikka> planetmaker: why do we allow multiple vehicles, or multiple houses, per grf?
10:33:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker (1) only easier when the NoGo is tied to a specific known good set of newgrfs
10:34:17 <Pikka> surely it would be no issue to offer a related set of grfs which are supposed to work with each other...
10:34:18 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's unhandy to select every vehicle separately ;-)
10:34:57 <planetmaker> But a NewGRF is not game control. Is not supposed to be
10:35:00 <planetmaker> It's item control
10:35:03 <andythenorth> Support: let's say you spend a year writing NoGo against FIRS 0.7.0. Then we completely rewrite supplies behaviour, whilst also fixing a critical bug you needed fixed. But now we broke your NoGo and you have to rewrite it for three months.
10:35:09 <planetmaker> that's conceptionally a difference
10:35:26 * andythenorth agrees with planetmaker resp. proper domains
10:35:32 <Pikka> planetmaker: then you need to give us a way to include local and global control in one distributable file
10:35:33 <andythenorth> but the interfaces look really messy to me
10:35:52 <planetmaker> It's the player who chooses
10:35:53 <peter1138> i've not read what it is
10:35:58 <peter1138> but i usually agree with pikka :p
10:36:03 <Pikka> planetmaker: but the player has no idea
10:36:09 <planetmaker> which goals he plays. And which Items he uses. But that's two different things
10:36:15 <Pikka> the player downloads every grf and runs them at the same time
10:36:20 <Pikka> and doesn't know what a gamescript is
10:36:21 <planetmaker> Pikka: and you do have an idea what's best for me?
10:36:36 <peter1138> game dictates to the player
10:36:43 <peter1138> that's how games work
10:36:48 <Pikka> yes, because I've put hundreds of hours into working out the gameplay of this content
10:36:56 <planetmaker> and players do know what game scripts is as much as NewGRFs.
10:36:59 <planetmaker> Or will learn that
10:37:08 <Pikka> and if no-one's ever going to play it, why bother?
10:37:08 <peter1138> okay, i can guess what this is about, and i still agree with pikka
10:37:19 <andythenorth> BUT IT'S NOT A GAME!! IT'S A REALITY SIMULATOR!! FOR TRAINS !! WTF LOL
10:37:36 <peter1138> "what's best for the player" is a good gameplay experience
10:38:14 <Pikka> which doesn't come about from loading half a grf/script
10:38:16 <andythenorth> but with NoGo, because NoGo has to be monolothic (one per game), I can't just write a nice industry NoGo
10:38:24 <peter1138> i don't like it that people kill me all the time in TF2
10:38:29 <peter1138> but that's the gameplay ;p
10:38:31 <andythenorth> and I can't be arsed to make "Andy's version of OTTD"
10:39:04 <planetmaker> peter1138: I suggest you remove game scripts and implement that as NewGRF then
10:39:28 <andythenorth> the thing we were never allowed to have, because of what NewGRF authors might do with it
10:39:51 <andythenorth> so now we have NoGo instead, and no reliable interface between NewGRF and NoGo
10:39:57 <andythenorth> more like an unexploded bomb interface
10:39:58 <planetmaker> or what was your argument?
10:41:09 <planetmaker> Pikka: where's not the difference to add to the NeWGRF dialoge UKRS2, TaI, PBI and what-you-have not seen and also adding the TaI game script?
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10:41:27 <andythenorth> or load a scenario where all of those are baked into the save...
10:41:36 <planetmaker> that's what scenarios do...
10:42:32 <andythenorth> planetmaker: now you add the TAI game script, but you add ECS
10:42:48 <andythenorth> (2) support requests
10:42:56 <andythenorth> (3) lol-wtf this thing is crappy and broken
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10:43:02 <planetmaker> (4) everything just works
10:43:31 <planetmaker> as the GS would just grow some towns and others not
10:44:02 <planetmaker> would fund some industries and others not
10:44:39 <planetmaker> maybe find that it has not TaI at its disposal and ignore the industry part
10:45:09 <andythenorth> so in the readme explaining what the GS does (and why to choose this one, not foobar.gs, or mylovelyGS.gs)....what do you say?
10:45:22 <andythenorth> how do you describe the behaviour, which won't always occur
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10:45:31 <planetmaker> though it probably would not find that
10:46:06 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you mean it would do *something* in a way which is unexpected. Thus like the current NewGRFs?
10:46:07 <andythenorth> as a GS author, how do you make sense of bug reports? "E.g. no industries opened", "lots of towns with roads but no houses"
10:47:18 <andythenorth> a NewGRF does at least currently know its own spec, so can describe behaviour in readme etc
10:47:21 <planetmaker> The same way as we make sense of bug reports. Look at the issue and investigate
10:47:40 <planetmaker> "provide savegame or nothing can be said". Done
10:48:06 <andythenorth> but with arbitrary NoGo, and arbitrary NewGRF it got much worse...
10:48:07 * planetmaker is tired and wanders off
10:48:58 <Pikka> well, it would be nice if I could tell the town not to build road. but I've never really had a problem with that anyway.. :)
10:49:19 <Pikka> so I guess it's back to "explain things better in the manual"
10:49:30 <Pikka> hello peter1138 btw :) long time
10:49:33 <peter1138> you can tell it not to build a house, right?
10:49:42 <peter1138> which then leads to lots of random roads instead?
10:49:44 <planetmaker> wouldn't change that it's broken to limit town growth imho. but well. too tired of this
10:49:51 <Pikka> you can tell it, for each individual house, not to build that house.
10:50:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it will all come out in the wash, eventually ;)
10:50:29 <Pikka> planetmaker: imo the town growth in OpenTTD breaks the game, which is why I created the grf in the first place. but indeed, who cares.
10:50:40 <planetmaker> Pikka: it's ttd and ttdpatch behaviour
10:50:45 <Pikka> I'll take the bug reports, and in the meantime try to limit them with good documentation.
10:50:49 <andythenorth> clearly we cared enough to debate this far :P
10:50:57 <Pikka> even so planetmaker, it breaks the game
10:51:15 <Pikka> and leads to people trying to do silly things like knobble aircraft.
10:51:57 <planetmaker> maybe OpenTTD should in case of doubt build a fallback house ;-)
10:52:22 <Pikka> I'll make it look like a road tile in TaI ;)
10:52:42 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
10:54:16 <Pikka> 19th century buildings will be awesome/a pain to draw. I'm not sure which yet.
10:54:35 * peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses
10:55:10 <Pikka> I can't see more than 2x2 being useful as a house, anything that size you probably want permanent anyway.
10:56:28 <Pikka> still, first things first
10:57:12 <Arafangion> It's "dinner", followed by "more dinner".
10:57:30 <Pikka> where can you tell where dinner ends and more dinner begins?
10:58:09 <Rhamphoryncus> (the less sense that makes the more funny it is)
10:58:14 <Arafangion> Pikka: It's marked by the fact that I have to actually physically move to get it! :)
11:10:29 <andythenorth> peter1138 wonders whatever happened to the idea of multi-tile houses <- you didn't code it?
11:11:42 <Pikka> I guess 1x3 could sometimes be interesting
11:12:02 <Pikka> 2x3 private airfield :P
11:13:31 <andythenorth> riverfront park?
11:14:02 <andythenorth> out of town shopping mall horrorshow
11:14:12 <peter1138> National Trust industry
11:14:34 <andythenorth> accepts: people; produces: crippling nostalgia?
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11:16:46 * Pikka has a potential solution to the towns-building-roads problem
11:17:18 <Pikka> a building which can always be built
11:17:33 <Pikka> and is immediately removed via callback 21 :)
11:18:07 <andythenorth> the road is still there no?
11:18:10 <Pikka> although I have my doubts that that will stop the town building roads
11:18:40 <Pikka> but if it really is the case that "the town builds road if it can't build a building" it might slow it down
11:19:29 <andythenorth> there are 4 eggs here
11:19:38 <andythenorth> you are holding 4 eggs
11:19:42 <Pikka> why can't I hold all these eggs?
11:19:53 <andythenorth> "you have won the game"
11:20:38 <Rhamphoryncus> That would lead to brown spots, wouldn't it?
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11:20:59 <Pikka> but the odd brown spot is nothing to be ashamed of
11:21:17 <Rhamphoryncus> That depends. Is it on an article of clothing?
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11:33:45 <Rhamphoryncus> oh.. right.. going from 1x freight to 5x freight definitely changes what a grasshopper can pull, heh
11:34:16 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm glad I went with the tunnel rather than going over the hill ;)
11:35:51 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: want to write me a multiprocessing process spawner, pulling tasks from a queue? :P :)
11:37:25 <Rhamphoryncus> it has a Queue type. Pool type too
11:38:04 * andythenorth is trying to make the code get written in parallel, as well as executed that way :P
11:38:45 <Rhamphoryncus> Sorry, too busy playing with FIRS ;)
11:40:19 <andythenorth> ^ the generate method calls here are embarrassingly parallel
11:41:54 * peter1138 wrote a multithreaded queue processor in c
11:41:59 <peter1138> but that's probably not what you want :p
11:42:54 <andythenorth> if it worked and I didn't have to write it...
11:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just let me start 200 processes from the command line, each with a different config file. and let make handle the multithreading
11:58:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: very possible
11:58:52 <andythenorth> just make each of the gestalts handle args?
11:59:06 <andythenorth> or create configparser config?
12:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: just like a c compiler can compile 200 .c files into .o
12:05:55 <smoovi> is somewhere a list where I can see the names of the keys for editing hotkeys.cfg?
12:08:36 <Pikka> ukrs2 just passed 12345 sprites :]
12:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Pikka: CETS is way beyond that :p
12:10:28 <andythenorth> Pikka: next milestone is 123456
12:10:32 <andythenorth> might take longer :P
12:11:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so somewhere a list of config files to pass?
12:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: so i call "pixa.py -i <gestalt name> -o <image name>"
12:12:45 <andythenorth> not possible quite yet, but close
12:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then it can be handled with a makefile rule like "%.png: gestalts/%.py"
12:15:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and the multithreading is handled by calling "make -j<X>"
12:15:49 <Eddi|zuHause> or MAKEOPTS="-j<X>"
12:16:18 <andythenorth> so I need (1) to make pixa handle command line args (2) a makefile...
12:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't have to make a makefile :)
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12:41:58 <michi_cc> Pikka: Regarding GameScripts, I guess it would be nice if there would be an optional TaI script that e.g. slows town growth down the nearer a town gets to the current limit (additional to the current hard limit, not instead). This way you wouldn't have growth suddenly stop from one tick to the next.
12:42:34 <michi_cc> I don't know offhand if the current GS API would allow to find out the TaI town class, but it is always possible to add things if needed :)
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12:47:14 <andythenorth> michi_cc: what would be the interface definition between GS and TaI? A set of labels or such?
12:47:35 <andythenorth> town type labels?
12:50:15 <Pikka> andythenorth: probably the GS can see the same variable the grf uses to decide town class, ie the town's index number?
12:56:41 <andythenorth> michi_cc: yes I considered that before
12:56:47 <andythenorth> same could be used for industry storage
12:56:52 <michi_cc> But if TaI is really just using the town index, then I believe a GS can already access that.
12:56:53 <andythenorth> it was dismissed as nonsense :P
12:59:55 <Pikka> I'd say either av8 or TaI need a parameter to reduce the airport infrastructure costs
13:00:04 <Pikka> but that probably comes under the domain of game scripts
13:03:32 * Illegal_Alien back to sleepmode
13:05:32 <Pikka> michi_cc: what is the default airport infrastructure maintenance cost factor? It's not in the specs.
13:07:03 * Pikka has an old TaI/UKRS test game, I turn on infrastructure maintenance...
13:07:47 <Pikka> I have 12 aircraft, 4 commuter airports, one city and one metro.
13:08:03 <Pikka> 3 million a year aircraft profit, 12 million a year airport infrastructure costs :D
13:08:25 <michi_cc> If you copy an existing layout with prop 0x08, it should be whatever the airport you copy from has.
13:08:46 <Pikka> yes, but I don't know what those numbers are to adjust them :)
13:08:55 <Pikka> I can't find it written anywhere
13:11:29 <michi_cc> Though I think 12 million cost are quite alright in this case, I very much intended to make airports with just two or three aircraft very expensive :)
13:12:18 <Pikka> yet another way in which the air game is made boring by making the best strategy "grow huge cities on opposite sides of the map and spam the largest aircraft" ;)
13:13:15 <Pikka> the smaller airports could possibly have lower costs, for games of my style at least. It'll be a parameter, anyway.
13:14:32 <michi_cc> Sure, if you intent to have something that is e.g. not more than a dirt strip, costs (and capacity) should be lower.
13:14:58 <andythenorth> dirt strip airports! :)
13:15:15 <andythenorth> multi-stop docks!
13:15:30 <Pikka> those wanting "bigger airports" which can "handle 60 planes at once"... will be disappointed by av8ports. ;)
13:15:33 <michi_cc> We need to finish the airport specs at one point I guess.
13:15:40 * andythenorth goes back to things he can do: cargo sprites
13:15:48 <andythenorth> the 'shout features' game rarely works here :P
13:15:58 * Pikka has enough to get finished right now :D
13:24:59 <andythenorth> I wrote a script that makes each pixel 30x bigger, writes the index number in the middle of the resulting block and saves it as png
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13:33:59 <planetmaker> how evil, andythenorth
13:34:13 <planetmaker> you kinda shotdown my browser :-(
13:34:43 <planetmaker> it's still downloading that evilness
13:34:47 <johnnyc227> Hows everyone doing? :D
13:35:14 <planetmaker> then... it's cought in an endless loop
13:35:40 <johnnyc227> Cup and string internet connection? ;D
13:36:42 <planetmaker> nothing a kill can't solve
13:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> think it might infringe the 'reverse engineering' part of a license agreement? :P <-- german copyright law states that "reverse engineering" parts of licenses are automatically void
13:40:50 <andythenorth> just make sure we get sued in Germany then :)
13:41:03 <TrueBrain> and that they dont take it to EU court
13:41:34 <Eddi|zuHause> mind you, that only applies to programs, not graphics, etc.
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13:57:09 * andythenorth learns lesson: adding params to __init__ after you've written multiple calls to it already, will cause pain
13:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> give them default values :=)
13:57:54 <andythenorth> will slightly lead to...errors in output :P
13:58:08 <andythenorth> code is for rewriting
13:58:21 <andythenorth> cargo generator might be done soon
13:58:27 <andythenorth> apart from I have to go shopping :|
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16:37:10 <sponge> Is there a graphics callback for powered / unpowered vehicles?
16:41:28 <planetmaker> you can make it so
16:41:38 <planetmaker> as railtype change is available
16:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i would advise against dropping the power to 0 on railtype change. just chose an unpowered railtype instead
16:43:09 <Eddi|zuHause> way less problems with the pathfinder, etc.
16:44:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the actual question is: what exactly are you trying to achieve?
16:59:48 <itch> Quit question: is there any way I can set the place of tool bar (the one in the upper side of screen) to be aligned left / right instead of center?
17:03:58 <__ln__> i had a patch for that
17:04:37 <bolli> i 've managed to break a remote server...
17:04:46 <bolli> i get this message... Game cannot be unpaused manually; disable pause_on_join/min_active_clients
17:04:51 <bolli> any idea what it means? :|
17:04:56 <itch> Thing is , im using dual display and the bar is riiiight on the middle :(
17:05:48 <sponge> Eddi|zuHause: im just trying to have different sprite sets
17:06:15 <sponge> but i guess thats not important since it only runs on one way of track set: metro
17:06:29 <sponge> i was also thinking of adding loading/unloading, not sure if its supported
17:06:49 <Ammler> no need of patch, afaik, there is toolbar_pos, isn't?
17:07:28 <Ammler> at least there was, maybe gone :-)
17:09:04 <sponge> Looks like my metro set is complete.
17:09:12 <sponge> Supports real colours, 1cc and 2cc.
17:10:14 <Ammler> this feature availability template on the wiki is silly and will only grow, why not simply write "available since"
17:10:36 <sponge> i was always lacking a good subway in the original train set
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17:20:58 <itch> Ammler, indeed, there is toobar_pos. Whare are the variables for it? ATM is set to 1
17:22:09 <Ammler> KenjiE20: you should put webster in here :-)
17:23:02 <Ammler> 0 is default, so you changed it
17:23:21 <Ammler> also it should be available via gui according to the wiki
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17:36:33 <itch> Oook, next question: can I force ottd to go trough ALSA driver under linux? As it is now, it seems that the "music / effects volume" does nothing.
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18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r24016 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt latvian.txt slovenian.txt):
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by OliTTD
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: latvian - 35 changes by Parastais
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 10 changes by Necrolyte
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19:20:50 <NGC3982> is there any way to give another player money?
19:23:28 *** peteris has joined #openttd
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19:31:24 <Terkhen> NGC3982: you can do that at the client list
19:31:40 <Terkhen> you can select it (IIRC) at the beginning of the company list
19:43:39 <DorpsGek> __ln__: Bjarni was last seen in #openttd 21 weeks, 3 days, 19 hours, 24 minutes, and 33 seconds ago: <Bjarni> heh
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20:01:06 <buc`afk> quick question if anyone has a minute?
20:01:35 <Rubidium> given a nanosecond is 30 centimeters, I don't think I've got a minute
20:02:22 <buc`afk> well i'll give it a go anyway :P
20:02:35 <buc`afk> lots of places create 'crates of goods'
20:02:39 <buc`afk> where do you ship those to?
20:03:52 <buc`afk> do i do anything with them once they are there?
20:04:02 <buc`afk> ie, cart them into the middle of the town or anything?
20:04:10 <buc`afk> or just TO the town and then job done
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20:13:11 <glx> to a town with a station saying it accepts goods
20:13:33 <glx> it's like any other cargo
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22:17:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "Guess who was hacked today"
22:18:59 <Eddi|zuHause> "Sony alledgedly lost its entire music catalog of michael jackson, including unreleased material"
22:19:33 <Rubidium> if they lost it, it's released
22:19:54 * Rubidium rather sees Spirit being hacked ;)
22:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "A spokesman for sony admitted the hack on march 4th, but the actual hack happened in april 2011, few weeks after the PSN hack."
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