IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-23
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02:46:47 <supermop> can a tall enough bridge clear a bus stop?
02:51:13 <Rhamphoryncus> A tunnel can go under though
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09:24:57 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not one of vivaldis compositions :p
09:27:16 <MNIM> hahaha. no. fortunately not.
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11:06:56 <andythenorth> display of sprites in vehicle info window - that's an unfixed issue?
11:10:44 <andythenorth> sometimes the length seems off, but I never figured out if it was an issue in my grf
11:11:08 <andythenorth> now there's a forum question about it...
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11:50:26 <andythenorth> procedural generation of log loads....
11:51:10 <andythenorth> not an easy problem
12:13:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23976 /trunk/src/spritecache.cpp: -Fix (r23889): Sprites of different zoom levels were not always padded correctly to a common size.
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13:44:25 <waterfoul> is there a way to re-enable the older trains in multiplyaer
13:52:45 <planetmaker> in multiplayer you cannot cheat or reset newgrfs
13:53:01 <planetmaker> you can save the map locally, modify as needed and the reload in MP
13:54:39 <andythenorth> procedural generator :P
13:55:38 <waterfoul> planetmaker what newgrfs would allow for the old trains to be accessable again?
13:58:52 <planetmaker> what are "old trains"?
13:59:06 <planetmaker> you mean OpenTTD default vehicles?
13:59:21 <planetmaker> Then I'd recommend you to use OpenGFX+ Trains
13:59:32 <planetmaker> along with whatever train NewGRF you use
13:59:41 <waterfoul> yea I want to be able to build the original, non electric rail, types in 2145 for examplre
13:59:46 <planetmaker> But your question is umbiguous. Thus...
14:00:03 <planetmaker> ah. that's irreversible for an existing game
14:00:23 <planetmaker> start a new game and make sure to play it with "engines never expire" switched on in the adv. settings
14:00:36 <waterfoul> I'm playing a casual ottd server and people are having startup issues with the running costs of monorail
14:00:55 <waterfoul> so I can;t change it for the current save.... :(
14:01:38 <waterfoul> wouldn't that just allow you to bring the old trains forward?
14:01:46 <waterfoul> not allow you to build them later
14:02:02 <planetmaker> my memory is bad, and probably doesn't work: switch on that setting in single player and use "reset_engines" in the console subsequently. Then reload in MP
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14:05:29 <waterfoul> your right the wiki's wrong
14:07:28 <planetmaker> what's wrong with the wiki's statement of "This setting will stop vehicles from going "out of date" and so they will remain available until the very end of the game." ?
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14:08:36 <waterfoul> the name of the setting is wrong on the wiki
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14:40:37 <Eddi|nichZuHause> "the tortoisehg installer may not be used on a 64bit platform"
14:45:27 <Elukka> programs exist that don't run on 64 bit systems?
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14:50:41 <Eddi|nichZuHause> Elukka: worse, it explicitly chooses to refuse to run...
14:57:16 <__ln__> at least for tortoisesvn there are separate builds for 32 and 64.
14:58:05 <__ln__> and i suppose that is because of the way it integrates to the Explorer.
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15:54:55 * dihedral chucks andythenorth in a pond
15:56:27 * Belugas clicks and types and reads and speaks and... works? yup
16:22:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23977 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Fix: don't load a game during UpdateWindows as that might trigger changing the blitter which triggers re-entrant locking
16:23:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23978 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix: [SDL] Palette update was done too late making switching from 8bpp -> 32bpp look ugly
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17:12:29 <Eddi|nichZuHause> looks like win7 on atom refuses to run dos programs...
17:12:56 <Eddi|nichZuHause> where does dosbox put the config file on windows?
17:14:01 <TinoDidriksen> In a .ini next to the exe, last I checked...
17:14:33 <Eddi|nichZuHause> where do i enable file extensions in win7?
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17:32:24 <glx> in explorer options, like other versions
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17:33:29 <glx> it's in the first dropdown (organize)
17:34:23 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i hate windows alone for the fact that they shuffle around the interfaces on every release
17:36:08 <Eddi|nichZuHause> right, i found the dosbox.conf: user\appdata\local\dosbox
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18:15:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: had some thoughts on pixa
18:15:33 <andythenorth> probably too many objects in current spec
18:15:39 <andythenorth> think fewer will suffice
18:17:45 <andythenorth> I think I can eliminate the compositor idea
18:17:55 <andythenorth> it can be done with the existing render class
18:18:08 <andythenorth> the gestalt just needs to call multiple render passes for same result
18:19:15 <andythenorth> (rather than composing a list of renders needed, then having the compositor handle the list)
18:20:54 <andythenorth> the P object (pixel) isn't needed either, that becomes internal to the PixaSequence object
18:23:21 <andythenorth> simpler = probably better...?
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18:28:07 * andythenorth will now mostly be bathing the babies
18:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23979 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/urdu.txt:
18:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: urdu - 3 changes by haider
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19:42:26 <andythenorth> finally something useful happens to BROS :)
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20:12:15 <macee> Hi all. Is it possible to find out in what group a vehicle is, without opening the vehicle list?
20:13:20 <macee> I think it would be nice if the group of the vehicle would be displayed next to the vehicle name in the vehicle window.
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20:19:27 <Alberth> I suspect it is not possible, but I never use groups, I consider them very useless.
20:20:37 <Alberth> of course you can have arbitrary complicated mixers, and/or stack them on top of each other in any way you like
20:20:39 <FLHerne> Useful for autoreplacing locos for different tasks
20:21:39 <Alberth> that's the main use is my guess, but I just replace one type engine with another one for all trains at the same time
20:22:00 <Alberth> perhaps because I use default vehicles, where the choice is not so large
20:23:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: what happens if one sequence overwrites a magic pixel of another colour? In particular when the overwritten pixel needs to be above the sequence overwriting it?
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20:45:55 <andythenorth> Alberth: if one sequence overwrites a magic colour...it's just something that happened
20:46:04 <andythenorth> I've spent a good part of the day trying to figure that out :P
20:47:18 <andythenorth> there are multiple solutions, but none should be built in
20:47:51 <andythenorth> (1) before any render passes, store the x,y locations of all pixels of magic colour x
20:48:00 <andythenorth> possibly writing them to an intermediate image
20:48:15 <andythenorth> then use in whichever render passes are relevant
20:48:43 <andythenorth> (2) allow a PixaMixer to tell the renderer 'skip this pixel if condition(xyz)'
20:49:00 <andythenorth> 'skip' could mean 'write this pixel's colour to pixel's current colour'
20:49:42 <andythenorth> (3) design the input files, the sequences, and the render passes in such a way that it's a non-issue. This is my preferred plan. I might try hacking on it now
20:50:06 <andythenorth> a good case is a flat trailer, with stake sides, and two steel coils
20:50:28 <andythenorth> the coils need to be drawn over the rear stakes, and behind the front stakes
20:50:31 <Eddi|nichZuHause> andythenorth: solution: do not write to the same image that you read from
20:50:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|nichZuHause: ahead of you there ;)
20:50:48 <andythenorth> there are PIL reasons to not do that anyway
20:52:14 <andythenorth> in the case of the steel trailer, first pass draws rear stakes, second pass draws coils, third pass draws the front stakes
20:52:24 <andythenorth> the flat bed of the trailer can be drawn on first or second pass
20:53:18 * andythenorth might try and code that now as an example
20:53:50 <andythenorth> meanwhile....although the idea of loading sequences from image files is nicer than coding them....it makes putting constants into the sequence near-impossible :o
20:53:57 <andythenorth> any ideas for solutions?
20:54:22 <andythenorth> constant / variables /s
20:55:12 * andythenorth recklessly confuses constants and vars too often :(
20:55:50 <Alberth> rewrite pixel colours in the sequence?
20:56:23 <andythenorth> but it's half-way to just hand coding the sequence
20:56:33 <andythenorth> you gain the x,y positions at least from the image
20:56:46 <andythenorth> they are *not* intuitive to code by hand :P
20:57:26 <andythenorth> Alberth: incidentally, I thought the x,y positions for a sequence should be immutable once set
20:57:35 <andythenorth> I think it's bonkers if they can be moved around :P
20:58:08 <andythenorth> I considered if there are valid cases to move them, e.g. invert x values to create a reversed angle for a vehicle
20:58:23 <Alberth> would seem like a good idea :)
20:58:35 <andythenorth> but in that case, the author should create their own method to read entire sequence, and write a new one, transforming as they go
20:58:53 <Alberth> you can easily pixa-mix it :)
20:58:57 <andythenorth> due to lighting, the reverse case isn't as useful as it sounds :)
20:59:24 <andythenorth> the / direction is lit differently to \ direction, not just brighter
20:59:24 <Alberth> yeah, I was suspecting that already :)
20:59:41 <andythenorth> there could be a case for random x,y but I think the results would be horrible
20:59:48 <andythenorth> better to choose a random sequence :P
21:00:05 <andythenorth> I'll look at that when I try to make logs procedural
21:00:10 <Alberth> still horrible, probably :)
21:01:01 <Alberth> having a random sequence makes the result non-reproducable
21:01:20 <Alberth> which may less than ideal, perhaps :)
21:02:44 <andythenorth> it would vary per compile :D
21:02:48 <andythenorth> which is a bit silly
21:04:06 <andythenorth> PixaSequence and PixaMixer look sensible in your paste
21:04:15 <andythenorth> so I cold extend PixaMixer arbitrarily?
21:04:27 <andythenorth> as long as it yields correct attributes?
21:05:16 <andythenorth> if date.day=="tuesday" col = colours['blue'] ?
21:05:17 <Alberth> you probably want a number of mixers
21:05:40 <Alberth> but yeah, how you decide what to return is internal to the class
21:05:42 <andythenorth> if you intend them as I think you do, I'd define a mixer for 1CC, 2CC etc
21:05:54 <andythenorth> a mixer for each real life colour
21:06:25 <andythenorth> and mixers for cases where the entire sequence is shifted down by one colour index
21:06:41 <andythenorth> a mixer for each cargo colour for bulk cargos...
21:06:50 <andythenorth> can mixers by mixed? :P
21:07:03 <Alberth> omg, what have I caused.... :)
21:07:22 <Alberth> sure, a mixer behaves as a sequence, which you can mix again :)
21:07:45 <andythenorth> this is what I'm doing already, I just miss a neat consistent interface to it :)
21:08:38 <andythenorth> so if I wanted 2CC and coal, I'd pass those as params to a smart mixer that understands what to do with them
21:08:50 <andythenorth> rather than creating 2CC_coal = mixer()
21:08:57 <andythenorth> which would be horribly combinatory
21:09:08 * andythenorth is pleased with all this
21:09:22 <Alberth> give each a name, and stack them on top of each other :)
21:10:11 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23980 /trunk/src/video/sdl_v.cpp: -Fix (r23977): crash when starting with the 32bpp anim blitter
21:10:40 <andythenorth> stack is exactly right
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21:12:38 <Alberth> unfortunately, they are not commutative nor associative, in general
21:13:06 <andythenorth> I could write my own method to stack them :P
21:20:24 <Eddi|nichZuHause> # or a beautiful nightmare
21:20:33 <Eddi|nichZuHause> what a stupid song...
21:21:50 <Eddi|nichZuHause> if i suspect a windows system is exceptionally slow because of the harddrive, how do i diagnose that?
21:22:11 <andythenorth> copy everything to a new drive, swap it out?
21:22:21 <TWerkhoven[l]> or check the smart status
21:22:55 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i tried installing the seagate tools, but they require .net4 and that takes AAGES to install
21:23:59 <TWerkhoven[l]> speedfan can do smart tests on hdd's
21:24:22 <Rubidium> Eddi|nichZuHause: remove the HDD and see whether it's faster
21:24:55 <supermop> is there a good nml rail set tutorial or should i just rip off a simple set like .se rails and drop my pngs in?
21:27:35 <Yexo> there is the general nml tutorial, the nml documentation and you can use swedishrails as example
21:27:43 <Yexo> but no tutorial just for a railset
21:27:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> they tried mirroring the hd to a similar model, but that was apparently broken
21:30:15 <__ln__> Eddi|nichZuHause: what's the Windows® Experience Index® of the HDD?
21:31:00 <Eddi|nichZuHause> can i get that on an xp system?
21:31:41 <TWerkhoven[l]> no, that comes with vista and beyond
21:32:15 <michi_cc> I'm not totally sure if XP has it, but try perfmon.exe if present.
21:32:22 <TWerkhoven[l]> q: why do you suspect the hdd of slowing down the system in the first place?
21:32:36 <__ln__> that's right, but did they release some sort of "can i run Vista?" utility program for XP? (which possibly could include that score)
21:33:00 <TinoDidriksen> Mirroring the hdd is trivial with dd and ntfsclone...how can that break?
21:33:39 <Rubidium> michi_cc: it does have that
21:33:46 <Rubidium> perfmon is really ancient
21:33:56 <Eddi|nichZuHause> perfmon seems to exist
21:34:19 <Eddi|nichZuHause> not sure what it does
21:34:49 <Rubidium> not sure whether it was in 3.51, but it definitely was in 4
21:35:31 <Eddi|nichZuHause> __ln__: i suspect the disk because processor load is 10-20%
21:35:44 <Rubidium> Eddi|nichZuHause: that's high ;)
21:36:10 <michi_cc> I only know how it looks like on Win7, but you should have a screen for "performance monitoring" where you can add a lot of measurements by clicking a + button somewhere.
21:36:18 * Rubidium has a database server on a suspected broken disk at work... ~0.5% CPU, 8000+ms/s waiting on 'buffer'
21:36:32 <Rubidium> michi_cc: does it look really ancient?
21:37:16 <michi_cc> Somewhat. Definitely more ancient than the 'resource monitor' (or so) that you can get via the task manager.
21:39:21 <Rubidium> screenshots don't seem to imply it's significantly different
21:39:43 <Rubidium> Eddi|nichZuHause: but you might want to try the test version of hd tune
21:40:14 <Rubidium> that can run some tests including SMART tests
21:40:18 <Rubidium> and keeps some history
21:40:29 <Rubidium> there you might want to look at the read error rate and such
21:40:43 <Rubidium> it only works for a few days
21:40:52 <Eddi|nichZuHause> what i'd like to see is a simple read/write speed test
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21:42:13 <Eddi|nichZuHause> i can't get perfmon to display anything
21:42:26 <Eddi|nichZuHause> it's just an empty diagram
21:42:47 <Rubidium> then the scale's probably wrong
21:43:57 <Rubidium> it doesn't auto adjust
21:44:12 <Rubidium> or maybe you need to start sampling?
21:46:29 <Eddi|nichZuHause> assume i'm stupid. what do i do?
21:46:56 <Rubidium> go to the computer shop
21:47:11 <Rubidium> don't have Windows at hand to figure out exactly
21:52:22 <FLHerne> Find a hardware-test-centred Linux live CD?
21:58:38 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hm... i have a program that has 6000 page faults per second
21:59:07 <Eddi|nichZuHause> (or maybe i'm making totally no sense of sysmon)
22:21:10 <Eddi|nichZuHause> hm... recursive vnc doesn't seem like a bright idea :p
22:22:01 * andythenorth renders a stake trailer with coil loads :)
22:25:07 <andythenorth> Terkhen: need any graphics for OpenGFX+ Road Vehicles? :) :P
22:27:35 <Terkhen> IIRC all cargo sprites were done
22:27:55 <Terkhen> and I wasn't planning to add new vehicles
22:29:42 <andythenorth> I am seeking users....
22:31:10 <supermop> could you procedurally draw a rail set?
22:31:49 <andythenorth> you'd want to draw the ballast by hand
22:32:39 <andythenorth> actually, you probably could draw a rail set procedurally
22:32:46 <andythenorth> the pattern is very regular for track
22:33:07 <andythenorth> I don't know if it's a good case though
22:33:39 <andythenorth> it's only worth setting up when you want to recolour things, change load sprites etc
22:33:48 <andythenorth> or render multiple variations of a building from standard components
22:34:02 <andythenorth> I guess you might save some time on drawing sleepers and such
22:35:56 <andythenorth> supermop: got any sprites drawn yet?
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22:58:50 <Eddi|nichZuHause> what's this thing that makes the screen black every time a windows security question pops up?
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23:47:12 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: User account control. Switches to a different desktop session to stop those evil key loggers.
23:51:43 <glx> and it's not black, it's just a darker palette :)
23:56:38 <michi_cc> Transparency recolour :)
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