IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-14
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10:38:34 <Rhamphoryncus> ... huh. OrderList::IsCompleteTimetable returns true if there are no orders, letting timetable_duration be 0
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11:16:43 <benspartan> Is the 1.1.3 version is still available somewhere?
11:17:04 <benspartan> I can't manage to find it
11:17:04 <planetmaker> binaries.openttd.org
11:17:31 <planetmaker> but why would you want that old version?
11:17:44 <planetmaker> IF you play 1.1 branch, I'd severly recommend 1.1.5 at least
11:18:11 <benspartan> nice, i thought i would have to recompile it
11:18:51 <benspartan> but ther server i usually play on is still on 1.1.3
11:19:05 <planetmaker> he's doing something wrong then
11:19:19 <benspartan> the admin is a ghost is fact
11:19:37 <planetmaker> especially server owners should be interested in running the latest stable release, especially in this case
11:19:57 <planetmaker> As the fixes between 1.1.4 and 1.1.5 harden the server and make it less vulnerable to attacks
11:20:08 <benspartan> I think he's not playing anymore
11:20:39 <planetmaker> you might want to consider other servers then :-)
11:20:48 <benspartan> he just keeps the server up
11:23:24 <benspartan> I like this one because maps are not huge, there is comptetion, a goal (8-9BGP) and nice people
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13:14:31 <xiong> Hi, I'm trying to understand why the center tile of a 3x3 block so often refuses to build, even under steady and long encouragement. Source seems to indicate that road access can be as far as a tile away; and I've seen buildings on the outskirts like that.
13:15:46 <xiong> But even building a short, one-tile road section into the middle of a 3x3 block is not always enough to provoke it to build; while cutting the block down to a 2x3 usually *is* enough. What's going on?
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13:16:41 <xiong> I also notice that buildings seem to come in alongside new roads but not at the ends of them -- sometimes but less likely. True?
13:17:51 <V453000> andythenorth: do petrol pumps/general stores die if they are ignored?
13:26:36 <Rhamphoryncus> xiong: town growth is.. funky
13:27:14 <Rhamphoryncus> It basically starts at the center, crawls outward in a random pattern, then eventually stops and does something
13:27:23 <xiong> I don't know why Game Mechanics is silent on it.
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13:29:35 <xiong> I'm fairly certain that I can produce more or less consistent results by building the extra road across the edge of a 3x3 block. The trouble comes when there isn't such an edge vacant. I'm reluctant to doze three buildings (or even one) to encourage the center tile to build.
13:31:12 <xiong> I'm even more peeved when I get the center to build, remove the extra road; the three newly vacant tiles build, too -- so all is well. And then, for some peculiar reason, the center building drops out -- perhaps four houses are replaced by a stadium, which later is replaced by... three houses. I feel I'm doing it wrong.
13:31:50 <xiong> I don't like the so-called 2x2 grid at all.
13:34:44 <Rhamphoryncus> 2x2 grid with a center tile?
13:36:03 <Rhamphoryncus> 2x2 doesn't have center tiles
13:36:28 <xiong> I mean, I prefer the so-called 3x3. I don't want to resort to 2x2 because I can't fill the centers of the 3x3 blocks.
13:37:09 <Rhamphoryncus> all the 3x3 I see use the center tile
13:37:37 <xiong> A 3x3 block is actually a 4x4 grid. Four is a good number. A 2x2 block is a 3x3 grid. Three is not such a great number. Besides, it's just too much road for the amount of town.
13:38:12 <Rhamphoryncus> It has a building
13:38:19 <xiong> Wait a minute; I may not have spoken clearly. Screenshot to the rescue... wait one.
13:44:39 <Rhamphoryncus> hmm, so a lot of your 3x3 blocks have empty centres
13:45:01 <xiong> Classic; illustrates all cases. Three blocks at town center have no building in center square. I've checked; they're not parks.
13:45:02 <Rhamphoryncus> What version are you using?
13:45:59 <xiong> Um, this is chillpack, hex version number, very hard to type. But I've seen just the same with vanilla nightlies.
13:46:24 <xiong> Anyway, chillpack doesn't advertise any monkey business with town building.
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13:47:30 <Rhamphoryncus> What's the version on the vanilla nightly? Just to be thorough
13:47:33 <xiong> Note that in some blocks I've forced the center tile to build with that extra road. You can see the south-most block has just now built its center and I've removed the extra road.
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13:49:03 <Rhamphoryncus> Also, take the vanilla nightly, open up scenario editor, place some 3x3 towns, then expand them and see what happens
13:50:19 <xiong> Found it. Looks like 1.1.0-beta5 (2011-02-04).
13:50:43 * Rhamphoryncus mumbles about "latest" not being a valid version, ever ;)
13:50:50 <xiong> Yah, dunno, I hadn't thought in terms of serious diagnostics and experiments here.
13:51:17 <xiong> I assumed at first, without thinking, that center tiles did not build because they had no road access -- open and shut.
13:51:38 <xiong> I'm still assuming this is all normal.
13:52:23 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm betting 1.2.0 added tweaked logic for 3x3 towns so it would fill in the centres
13:52:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Or any of 1.1.1 through 1.1.5
13:52:56 <xiong> Are you saying this is *not* normal? Are you blaming chillpack or, more likely, the vanilla base for whatever I've got?
13:53:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm blaming your old version
13:53:17 <xiong> I just thought I was doing it wrong.
13:53:46 <Rhamphoryncus> It works fine for me
13:54:11 <xiong> I never played real heavily with the vanilla version I have installed; I went to chillpack quickly. Did most of my old playing with nightlies.
13:54:27 <Rhamphoryncus> But I would suggest one trick to try: rather than a road straight at the center tile you could go in, then turn. Make it a bend so it doesn't assume that road will get grown further
13:54:50 <xiong> Ah yes. Thought of that. Note the block to the west of town center.
13:55:36 <xiong> There, the "access road" is only a half-tile in, with a full-tile "T". So the center tile doesn't face an uncompleted dead end.
13:56:37 <xiong> I've also tried simple half-tile dead ends. Doesn't seem to matter. What does work is two or more adjacent tiles. I notice that block corners seem to build preferentially and theorize that quantity of adjacent tiles counts.
13:57:29 <xiong> To the southwest I've got another "T" dead-end. Hasn't built. Nothing works as well as a road straight across.
13:58:22 <Rhamphoryncus> Hrm. Looks like chillpak isn't currently developed
13:58:28 <xiong> I guess if I care about this as much as I seem, I really should break out the most recent vanilla release, build some very specific demo towns, and work them scientifically. Store raw data, all of that.
13:58:42 <Rhamphoryncus> It's based on an older version.. and he accidentally broke savegame compatibility with trunk
13:58:47 <xiong> But the point of playing the game is to amuse myself, not make more work.
13:59:23 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd recommend you live with it for now, but for your next game grab 1.2 (or whatever the latest beta is)
14:02:02 <xiong> Yes, there's wisdom in that suggestion. But I really like some of chillpack's patches.
14:02:25 <xiong> I'm not sure how eager I am to roll my own patchpack.
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14:20:38 <Rhamphoryncus> My pleasure. Not that I had anything to do with it.
14:21:05 <Nite> i wasn't able to connect properly in 1.1.5 so instead of talking to all the server hostings to change their settings of strange timeout parameters or something
14:21:32 <Nite> i paused playing ottd (no 1.1.5 for me :-( )
14:21:55 <Nite> 1.2.0 works as fluid as ever for me
14:22:02 <xiong> Thanks for talking about it, Rhamphoryncus. I'm now considering this not so much of a gameplay issue and more of a software issue.
14:23:20 <Nite> the extra zoom levels are a nice touch too (i set it to 2x in) will help with some signal constellations
14:23:54 <xiong> At the least, it might be worthwhile to set up some serious test games and at least be able to write some sort of current documentation, with facts to back it up.
14:24:41 <xiong> Does that mean the 32bpp project has been folded into trunk?
14:25:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Well, I don't think so anyway
14:26:06 <Rhamphoryncus> There is some sort of 32bpp renderer, but it's significantly slower, and I don't know if you can actually use 32bpp graphics.. or maybe it just doesn't come with them. No idea really.
14:28:18 <xiong> Are the signals any more readable?
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14:33:34 <Nite> "Make default timeouts for certain network states lower and configurable [CVE-2012-0049] [FS#4955] (r23764)" ruined version 1.1.5 for me
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14:34:07 <Nite> it loks like this is already back to as it was before in 1.2.0 anybeta
14:34:16 <Rhamphoryncus> Nite: I was discussing that earlier
14:34:56 <Nite> telling every host to configure his timeouts would be too much hassle
14:35:25 <Rhamphoryncus> It needs a system that doesn't block play while someone is connecting
14:35:31 <Nite> what was the outcome of the discussion? Rhamphoryncus
14:36:13 <Rhamphoryncus> I can't recall heh
14:36:21 <Nite> i can live with the short pauses
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14:36:34 <Rhamphoryncus> problem is the pauses aren't necessarily short
14:36:42 <Rhamphoryncus> That's why the timeout is small
14:37:08 <Nite> having cookies or chips on the desk solves the problem of the connecting player pause perfectly well !
14:37:34 <Nite> for me teh connecting timeout was ok
14:37:51 <TWerkhoven2> im sure you can turn pause-while-connecting can be turned off, but that may prevent slower computers from joining if the game gets too big
14:37:52 <Nite> but ingame i always got disconnected
14:37:58 <TWerkhoven2> as they may not be able to catch up
14:38:00 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: The 32bpp renderer is exactly the same renderer the ez patch used (only that they added a horribly complicated and slow recolouring that was calculated for every pixel). And since some time now you can supply extra zoom sprites in both 8bpp and 32bpp, somebody just has to draw them (I wouldn't count on the 32bpp project with their glacial speed).
14:38:51 <Rhamphoryncus> michi_cc: ahh, I see
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14:38:56 <Nite> again: i could connect to game noramlly, i get disconnected in the first minutes of actually playing in 1.1.5
14:39:56 <Nite> but i swept 1.1.5 off the drive already and put my hope in 1.2.0 (the beta works smooth)
14:40:26 <Nite> maybee it will clear up in future what caused it ...
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14:47:11 <Nite> when does the "auto refit" button get nongreyedout ??
14:48:55 <Nite> Oh and, rivers are great addition
14:49:15 <Nite> "flat" bridges come in mind
14:53:32 <Nite> the changelog does not say that network timeout settings are back to old, but 1.2.0 still works for me ... hmmmmm ... whatever ...
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15:01:11 <michi_cc> Nite: When you use a vehicle NewGRF with support for it.
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15:09:04 <Nite> the maintainance on off switch does what?
15:13:00 <Ammler> hetzner has a lot of network issues :0-(
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16:06:37 <CargoBoy> i am trying to set up an oli service
16:06:50 <CargoBoy> that starts with a rail transport
16:06:59 <CargoBoy> and finish with a road transport
16:07:17 <CargoBoy> but my train station seems that do not accept oil
16:08:06 <Belugas> because a train station as such does not accept anything
16:08:41 <CargoBoy> so what i have to do?
16:09:00 <Belugas> if you want your station to accept oil, you have to install it very close to a rafinery
16:09:05 <CargoBoy> my train station includes a cargo stop
16:09:41 <CargoBoy> so i cant tranship oil between trains and cargoes?
16:10:27 <CargoBoy> (sorry 4 my bad english)
16:11:25 <Belugas> put your station as close as possible to it
16:11:52 <Belugas> after a while, the reginery will produce goods
16:12:18 <Belugas> pick them up and send them to the towns, if you have towns accepting goods :)
16:12:50 <CargoBoy> i hoped in combined transport :(
16:13:14 <Elukka> you can have a vehicle drop the oil off on a station that doesn't accept it and have another vehicle pick it up and transport it to the refinery
16:13:29 <Elukka> say, have a ship bring it to a dock and trains to transport it to the refinery
16:13:33 <Elukka> you have to use the transfer order
16:14:10 <CargoBoy> this is what i want to do
16:14:24 <CargoBoy> drop oil in the train station
16:14:31 <Belugas> you can do that too, but bear in mind that the cargo dropped at the station will "vanish" slowly
16:14:35 <CargoBoy> and take it with a road transport
16:15:35 <Elukka> in the orders menu click transfer on the station where you want to it to drop off the oil
16:16:30 <CargoBoy> this is the thing that i missed
16:17:23 <CargoBoy> see you soon my friends :)
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17:03:59 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23945 /trunk/src/ (strings.cpp strings_func.h): -Fix: Better rounding when converting internal speed to displayed speed.
17:04:05 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23946 /trunk/src/ (order_type.h timetable_cmd.cpp timetable_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Pass a proper enum instead of a bit flag to CmdChangeTimetable for indicating what to change.
17:04:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23947 /trunk/src/ (15 files in 6 dirs): -Feature: Timetabled maximum travel speeds for non-flying vehicles.
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17:50:52 <Yacudzer> hi all... could someone help with cyclotrons??
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18:39:53 <dihedral> yexo - you hurt my feelings ... you needed to be reminded of the admin port :-(
18:44:42 <dihedral> my fav last web setup was music.dihedral.de
18:45:00 <dihedral> an online music library in flash on my own server :-)
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23948 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 31 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 6 changes by Rubidium
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 5 changes by jpx_
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 3 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 6 changes by Stabilitronas
18:46:20 <dihedral> i'll be back tonight ... i think :-P else tomorrow ;-)
18:46:53 <SmatZ> are you enjoying the Valentine's day evening? :)
18:47:30 <dihedral> i do not think we are going to do anything other than relax
18:47:54 <Alberth> that's a good day to celebrate valentine's day :)
18:47:55 <dihedral> my gf is a florist, and had to work late for all the blokes needing to buy something today ^^
18:49:08 <dihedral> well - i need to get a move on, else she aint gonna love me for being late - and that would be the end of a relaxed evening :-P
18:49:46 <Alberth> bye, enjoy your evening :)
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19:49:13 * Belugas yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyaaaaawns
19:50:04 <frosch123> he, you can read my mind
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20:47:26 <supermop> what does that mean?
20:50:04 <__ln__> must be british english
20:53:07 <andythenorth> means, should I convert HEQS code to python + nml?
20:53:40 <supermop> is it easy or at least interesting to do?
20:53:58 <andythenorth> but offers no gameplay benefit
20:54:02 <andythenorth> it's bad engineering
20:54:07 <andythenorth> it might be good entertainment
20:54:09 <supermop> and are there future changes to heqs that will be helped by it?
20:54:33 <andythenorth> refit vehicles to varying numbers of trailers
20:54:40 <andythenorth> which is planned
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20:56:37 <andythenorth> it would force me to decide whether to subclass objects or keep using squirrely 'if' statements
20:57:10 <andythenorth> e.g. 'tractor' might be a subclass of 'vehicle'
20:57:42 <andythenorth> or there might be lots of code like 'if type == tractor: stuff; elif type=='bulldozer': stuff; else: stuff
20:58:25 <andythenorth> also it means I can avoid drawing BANDIT
21:01:48 * Hirundo objects, prefers bandit instead
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21:18:08 * andythenorth doesn't convert HEQS :P
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21:48:34 <Zuu> How would you make a 5 (or 6) answer question with the GameScript dialogs which can at most have 3 buttons?
21:49:44 <Hirundo> For a really fun UI, use the 4th dimension (aka time) ;-)
21:49:52 <Zuu> Perhaps like a wizard with (prev), Start, Next.
21:50:02 <Hirundo> ie click this button after 1 sec for answer A, 2 sec for answer B, etc
21:50:06 <Zuu> Where start picks the scenario.
21:50:13 <Hirundo> though your suggestion seems more appropriate :-)
21:50:34 <Zuu> Especially as there are no generic buttons for making a tree selection.
21:50:46 <Hirundo> It's a scenario picker?
21:51:13 <Zuu> Eg. click 1 for chapter 1 or 2, click 2 for chapter 3 and 4, ... and then a second question below that one.
21:51:27 <Zuu> Its a chapter selection dialog.
21:51:45 <Hirundo> then <prev start next> makes sense
21:52:06 <Hirundo> you can also add a few short descriptions of what they learn in that chapter
21:52:36 <Zuu> yep thats a bonus with this approach.
21:53:07 <Hirundo> such mental preparation can be useful, also it might help if you don't remember exactly at which point you quit last time
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