IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-02-03
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01:44:58 <VIPStephan> hi there, anybody awake?
01:47:35 <Rhamphoryncus> Unfortunately, but I'm about to fix that. Good night ;)
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06:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> Alberth: in TTD it was 2**31 (you can have negative money as well) <-- but it would apply the currency multiplicator correctly, so it would be 2**31£, 2**32$ or 2**33DM
06:57:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (and then wrap around into negative if you get more profit)
06:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> (i had that once, used the "build long tunnel" cheat to get back to positive money)
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07:37:42 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: sadly enough we lost that feature of correctly applying the currency multiplier when near/at the money limit
07:38:39 <Eddi|zuHause> need 128bit ints :p
07:39:01 * andythenorth needs more sleep
07:39:05 <andythenorth> why are you people up?
07:39:17 <andythenorth> you seem to go to bed later than me, and you're often here when I get up
07:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, we could fake this by applying the multiplicator on the string instead
07:39:34 <Eddi|zuHause> sleep is overrated
07:39:41 <Elukka> i don't believe eddi sleeps
07:41:10 <andythenorth> maybe his brain is in two halves
07:41:16 <andythenorth> one half sleeps, the other wakes
07:41:18 <andythenorth> then they switch
07:41:29 <andythenorth> or maybe they're asynchronous
07:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> all i know is that the cat is electrostatically loaded...
07:48:19 <planetmaker> does it also sometimes chat for you? ;-)
07:48:51 <andythenorth> would someone finish my python tutorial while I'm away
07:49:02 <Elukka> so he is possibly a dolphin
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07:49:46 * andythenorth from somewhere import someone
07:50:19 <andythenorth> someone.do(stuff)
07:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> from __future__ import finished_tutorial
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08:05:16 <Elukka> speaking of sleeping with half the brain, i'm reminded of a thing...
08:05:25 <Elukka> there's a surgical procedure that involves removing half the brain
08:05:31 <Elukka> sometimes there's a more or less full recovery
08:05:46 <Elukka> you can take off half the brain and it'll still work the same
08:08:05 <andythenorth> not quite the same
08:08:44 <andythenorth> there are functions that aren't replicated in both hemispheres
08:08:55 <Elukka> well, it varies, but you'd think they'd be severely mentally disabled afterwards
08:09:14 <andythenorth> there's a large literature on how brain injury can have specific interesting effects
08:09:29 <andythenorth> search "phineas gage"
08:09:52 <Elukka> "One case, demonstrated by Smith & Sugar, 1975; A. Smith 1987, demonstrated that one patient with this procedure had completed college, attended graduate school and scored above average on intelligence tests. Studies have found no significant long-term effects on memory, personality, or humor after the procedure,[2] and minimal changes in cognitive function overall.[3]"
08:09:55 <Elukka> not everyone is as lucky, of course
08:11:25 * andythenorth from __somewhere__ import car_keys
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09:00:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nmlc: An internal error has occurred:
09:00:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Error: (IndexError) "string index out of range".
09:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> that doesn't sound right
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09:11:34 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... and devzone fails showing previews...
09:13:42 <Eddi|zuHause> sorry, this report is totally ill-formatted
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11:25:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Huh, that's why reverse scroll doesn't seem right: the mouse cursor doesn't go with it
11:25:37 <Rhamphoryncus> It sticks with your window
11:35:48 <peter1138> i had a patch for that once
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11:47:01 <Rhamphoryncus> peter1138: didn't fly? :/
11:47:55 <MNIM> heh. I guess the military vehicle had little damage at all?
11:52:58 <peter1138> yeah, it made scrolling hard when you had windows open
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12:33:01 <Rhamphoryncus> peter1138: oh, I'd just want it to be a visual thing.
12:34:32 <peter1138> when the cursor moves, it'll move into a different window from the main viewport
12:34:36 <peter1138> then it stops scrolling
12:38:42 <Rhamphoryncus> I'd want it to show the cursor moving, but still treat it as where you started
12:38:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Until you release the button
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13:24:57 <cmircea> After playing around with the OpenTTD port in the Android Market, I doubt a port to these devices would be recommended with the current UI.
13:25:21 <cmircea> It's kind of a pain to do anything.
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13:37:25 <Rhamphoryncus> cmircea: you must have decent resolution. On mine it's impossible.
13:37:43 <cmircea> 1280x720 is quite decent frankly.
13:38:03 <cmircea> That's not the point. In a tablet the UI is large enough.
13:39:34 <cmircea> The issue is mostly with the mouse-designed UI. Kinda hard to hold down and select (not to mention the port doesn't implement that), scrolling would be impossible, navigating the menus is a pain, the device buttons don't do anything.
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13:39:52 <cmircea> There are not easy to fix issues.
13:40:58 <cmircea> Unless someone else is interested I'd have to scrap this idea for about a year, since I won't have much time for now.
13:42:21 <Rhamphoryncus> Mine's 320x240, heh
13:42:53 <Rhamphoryncus> cmircea: I'd like to redesign the entire UI but I'm not doing it any time soon. I'm starting with scheduling ;)
13:43:10 <Rhamphoryncus> but the phone was free
13:43:25 <cmircea> Yeah well my GNex wasn't exactly cheap :P
13:45:41 <cmircea> Rhamphoryncus, 12 times more pixels.
13:47:20 <cmircea> I'd be more than happy to do an Android port. It wouldn't be that difficult, most of the libraries probably compile directly; maybe SDL but there's already a port. Android not working well with Visual Studio is an annoyance, but meh, Eclipse isn't that hard to use.
13:47:30 <cmircea> But I don't have much time to work on the UI.
13:47:32 <Rhamphoryncus> Yours is a tablet though?
13:47:38 <cmircea> No, it's a phone, 4.65"
13:47:51 <cmircea> Things are a wee bit small on OTTD, but bearable.
13:54:47 <cmircea> I'm setting up a github repo
13:55:04 <cmircea> Though I likely won't do much.
14:28:09 <andythenorth> Belugas: today is forest police station day, if Amazon deliver on time....
14:44:33 <Belugas> i bet that since kiddo is born, you find even more reasons to complete your collection ^_^
14:47:45 <Belugas> mh... that's bad... my kid is not as interested in guitar as i am. in fact, not at all...
14:47:53 <Belugas> so i cannot do the same trickery :(
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14:58:53 <andythenorth> Belugas: maybe he likes cameras? :)
15:00:03 <Belugas> yeah he does. but so does my wife.
15:00:41 <Belugas> that the little prince is already equipped :)
15:01:12 <Belugas> i told her once... "i'll give him my 1000D, i'll buy a 7D instead"
15:01:26 <Belugas> she did not like the idea
15:01:46 <Belugas> "What is he going to do with it, plus you don't need that much of a camera"
15:03:59 <Ammler> why is opentitle.dat installed to baseset?
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15:06:20 <Rubidium> because we got rid of data, and they're definitely not a NewGRF
15:12:51 <Ammler> hmm, also a little type, it should be baseset_s_
15:14:28 <Rubidium> like it's langs, srcs, newgrfs, ais, ailibraries, contents_download?
15:19:33 <Ammler> heffer: has Fedora an alternative for Recommends I am not aware of?
15:20:05 <planetmaker> speaking of cameras :-P
15:20:21 <planetmaker> exposure time 1/1000s ;-)
15:23:09 <planetmaker> and is was **** cold yesterday
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15:23:24 <Belugas> now i am disappointed. I tough it was youur new lens :(
15:23:43 <Belugas> i know you cold not shoot that close with your slr :)
15:23:50 <planetmaker> well... the "lens" had 8" diameter here :-P
15:25:14 <planetmaker> we tried to find out whether we can see a star fading out of view (time-resolved) when it becomes hidden by the moon
15:25:18 <planetmaker> I guess it might work
15:25:33 <Ammler> Rubidium: is this change somehow docuemnted for distro/packagers or we need to grep the source?
15:25:35 <planetmaker> which means... trip to Italy in April :-P
15:27:25 <cmircea> Does OTTD run with SDL 1.3?
15:27:53 * andythenorth searches for moon picture taken on 500mm mirror lens and 2 stacked 2x converters
15:27:53 <andythenorth> but can't find it
15:27:53 <andythenorth> was good for cheap equipment
15:28:03 <planetmaker> did you try, cmircea ?
15:28:17 <Belugas> planetmaker, the blurr around the right edges are due to the atmosphere? must not come from the movement, not at that speed
15:28:19 <planetmaker> andythenorth, it's about the same focal length then. This is 2.3m
15:28:37 <cmircea> planetmaker, not really, no.
15:28:41 <andythenorth> the quality on mine was rather less :)
15:28:49 <planetmaker> Belugas, it's a bit image-treated... 10 images stacked and slightly sharpened
15:29:00 <cmircea> planetmaker, was hoping someone already did.
15:29:01 <planetmaker> I might have overdone it a bit
15:29:24 <planetmaker> and... it was quite cloudy already. That probably caused most of the blur
15:29:41 <Belugas> i'd say the later rather than the former
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15:29:59 <Belugas> mmmh... mb, get out off my fingers!
15:30:07 <Ammler> ah, that diff is too big :-)
15:30:24 <planetmaker> what do you mean, Belugas ?
15:32:28 <Belugas> mb has a tendancy to speak with "former, later" quite oftenly. And I think i'm contaminated
15:33:04 <Ammler> we really should sometime also cleanup the mess with dedicated
15:33:04 <Belugas> never mind... too much coffee on my system... plus, blame peter1138 for putting DeathMole on my ears!
15:35:28 <planetmaker> he must have read QC
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16:05:28 <Belugas> we're both fans of Deathmole (well... i believe he is) for some times now :)
16:05:52 <planetmaker> I haven't actually listened to it yet. But they offer samples... maybe later today :-)
16:08:15 <Belugas> whole songs. warning... a bit heavy metal
16:08:48 <Belugas> i know somewhere, you can find some other songs, when deathmole was free music
16:08:51 <planetmaker> I can live with that ;-) Would fit with Blind Guardian etc ;-)
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16:28:28 * andythenorth might drive home and write python tutorials
16:28:32 <andythenorth> and build lego police stations
16:29:05 <Elukka> it's cold as hell right now
16:30:06 <planetmaker> yesterday was said to be the coldest day of this winter for here
16:30:12 <planetmaker> like -20 ... -5°C
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16:33:24 <Belugas> that looks like Quebec!
16:33:48 <Belugas> i wonder... is the driver the one holding the camera?
16:33:57 <Belugas> if so... anoher reason to ban those devices
16:35:32 <planetmaker> it looks the person on the right does
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16:48:44 <Belugas> mmh... anyone know if mysql has generators available?
16:50:48 <Belugas> aaaahh.. never mind... the guy had the pk as autoincrement
16:52:15 <Belugas> and here it snows, once more
16:57:42 <Rubidium> Belugas: I doubt the consequences are as bad as they are here ;)
16:57:57 <Rubidium> (for traffic that is)
17:00:28 <Rubidium> although I was wondering why a train running two times an hour with a journey length of ~90 minutes can have a delay of 180 minutes
17:06:48 <Belugas> indeed, not as bad. we are quite used to the white stuff now :)
17:07:09 <Belugas> as for the trains, maybe they had a stuck car/truck/whatever n the rails?
17:09:37 <Rubidium> Belugas: rather jammed switches
17:10:13 <Rubidium> it would probably have been faster to walk the 7.5 km home today
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18:05:27 <frosch123> Belugas: i would be happy if it would snow here; then it would not be as cold :)
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18:30:06 <Belugas> granted, frosch123 :)
18:30:29 <Belugas> i've heard indeed that good old Europ is having a walk in the cold side
18:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23877 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt lithuanian.txt):
18:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 52 changes by OliTTD
18:45:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 4 changes by Stabilitronas
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19:07:08 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm having fun. Comparing vehicle departure times and getting 371. They're on full day increments.
19:07:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 't was about time there was an actual winter here...
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19:09:08 <Rhamphoryncus> Vehicles are updated one at a time, so at any given point you'll have some that are 1 tick in to the future
19:10:07 <MNIM> FINALLY I get to use that mountainbike for what I intended to use it for. :D
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19:31:58 * andythenorth ponders writing more tutorial
19:32:12 <andythenorth> but as everyone knows, pondering isn't doing :P
19:33:18 <Alberth> but a bit of pondering before doing may cause big jumps forward :p
19:38:53 <andythenorth> I need a test subject :P
19:47:54 <andythenorth> I mean a person :)
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19:53:21 <andythenorth> templating NML with python
20:08:06 <Alberth> did you make any WT3 document?
20:08:47 <Alberth> last weekend I was traveling, and wrote a bit of REST structure of a WT3 site
20:10:39 <Ammler> andythenorth: there is a python make replacement
20:17:59 <Ammler> "a" doesn't mean that, does it? :-)
20:23:06 <andythenorth> Ammler: is it AAP per chance?
20:23:33 <Ammler> I have no clue, I already told anything about I know
20:24:02 <andythenorth> I wonder if make is a solved problem
20:24:11 <andythenorth> planetmaker has it pretty well under control no?
20:24:23 <Ammler> why do you see make as "a problem"?
20:25:09 <andythenorth> it's a phrase ;)
20:25:19 <Ammler> one issue with it could be the lack of support on windows, but that might be for everything
20:25:20 <andythenorth> 'solved problem' = let's not worry about this, it works
20:26:32 <Ammler> only very experienced devs here are able to build devzone projects on windows
20:27:26 <Ammler> hmm, rather none, I guess everyone now runs linux vms for it :-)
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20:29:48 <andythenorth> I didn't realise it was so hard :o
20:32:28 <andythenorth> Ammler: for the build step, I think I could do a simple grf like BANDIT in pure python
20:32:43 <andythenorth> but making different targets, including src bundles etc
20:32:51 <andythenorth> and moving to install location: not
20:33:13 <Rubidium> andythenorth: why can't you?
20:33:14 <Ammler> well, the whole dependency stuff
20:33:25 <andythenorth> Rubidium: 'I' is the important part :P
20:33:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: yes, you're the one! ;)
20:34:00 <andythenorth> I'm not a good tool maker
20:34:16 <andythenorth> and there are >3 years of knowledge in the current makefile, for which I am only a dumb user :P
20:34:45 <andythenorth> I think what I *can* do is write a python wsgi app that lets users 'configure' a grf in a web browser locally, then build it
20:34:56 <andythenorth> which might be an interesting approach
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20:39:18 <Ammler> what would a user configure?
20:40:12 <andythenorth> for a truck grf, they could configure values of: all vehicle attributes; names; number of trailers; 'upload' pngs
20:40:34 <andythenorth> for a bus newgrf similar
20:40:37 <andythenorth> trains, I'm not sure
20:40:45 <andythenorth> maybe it's the solution to the BROS car crash :P
20:40:59 <andythenorth> it would be akin to grf maker, in some ways
20:41:21 <andythenorth> no ability to add complex varaction 2 stuff etc
20:42:05 <andythenorth> industry newgrf: not possible, too complicated
20:47:42 <michi_cc> Ammler: Building devzone projects on windows is as easy as installing cygwin is.
20:49:04 <Ammler> michi_cc: then there is one, I guessed 2 :-)
20:49:41 <Ammler> I am able to install cygwin, but I am not able to build a devzone project
20:49:49 <michi_cc> Even works with gimp and everything.
20:50:44 <andythenorth> but...it's in Zope which is...umm...overkill :P
20:51:01 <Ammler> andythenorth: that looks like cets
20:51:10 <andythenorth> similar idea. different backend
20:51:37 <andythenorth> basically object database versus row-based database
20:52:32 <andythenorth> I am hoping I can pickle objects directly from web form(s) to configure the grf, then read them directly out for building the grf
20:52:33 <Ammler> andythenorth: I am not sure, where you profit from object based database
20:52:41 <andythenorth> familiarity for me
20:53:01 <andythenorth> potato / potato in the end result
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21:00:28 <andythenorth> buy menu text might be an interesting challenge
21:00:52 <andythenorth> I need to use either a custom string, or a shared string
21:01:02 <andythenorth> my database has no provision for that
21:16:28 <andythenorth> paver looks interesting
21:26:36 <Terkhen> besides being confusing and not really created for nml templating :)
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21:28:22 <andythenorth> Terkhen: it's good for includes and constant substitution
21:28:58 <andythenorth> what do you think of it as a solution?
21:32:58 <Terkhen> it already works and it does its job :P
21:33:25 <Terkhen> it's quite possible that a better solution exists, but it involves changes to both the existing makefile framework and templates already created
21:34:20 <andythenorth> the makefile change appears to be simple afaict
21:35:02 <andythenorth> I'm only looking at python alternatives because others seem to want one
21:35:15 <andythenorth> and I'm too tired to write code :P
21:35:44 <Rubidium> oh no, somebody aready coded write
21:36:51 <andythenorth> I only started python templating because I didn't like writing out multiple duplicate CPP defines
21:36:57 <andythenorth> so I templated those :P
21:37:07 <andythenorth> then it....grewed
21:37:21 <andythenorth> now afaict there is no CPP in BANDIT
21:37:29 <Terkhen> if the makefile changes are simple then it's probably worth the effort to try a supposed better solution with a new project that requires templates, and then consider if adapting existing project to the new method is desirable
21:37:43 <andythenorth> Terkhen: checkout the BANDIT repo ;)
21:38:04 <andythenorth> I haven't advocated changing FIRS so far
21:38:06 <Terkhen> sorry, I have no dev environment here :)
21:40:37 <andythenorth> I think it can be improved - alberth might help me
21:41:34 <andythenorth> most of all it's fun to code with
21:41:57 <andythenorth> each vehicle is a first class python object, which means a lot of interesting things can be done very quickly
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21:49:41 * Terkhen has no idea of python
21:49:53 <andythenorth> just assume it's code :)
21:50:05 <andythenorth> if andythenorth can do it, it's not very hard code
21:50:12 <Terkhen> def get_total_consist_capacity(self): <-- I'm not used to understand that kind of code :P
21:50:49 <andythenorth> dunno why self has to be set as param
21:51:06 <Rubidium> to tell it's an instance function instead of a static function?
21:51:52 * andythenorth guesses it needs it for namespace reasons. let's see
21:52:10 <andythenorth> "... the self variable represents the instance of the object itself. Most object-oriented languages pass this as a hidden parameter to the methods defined on an object; Python does not. You have to declare it explicitly."
21:52:57 <Rubidium> so it's exactly what I said
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21:53:52 <andythenorth> it's a convention apparently
21:53:57 <andythenorth> could be any other string
21:54:10 <andythenorth> string / identifier /s
21:54:29 * andythenorth is learning more python this 7 days than in last 7 years of using it :P
21:54:40 <Rubidium> then I propose _ as identifier
21:54:56 <andythenorth> I think that would have interesting side effects?
21:56:12 <Rubidium> it's often used as "don't care" paramater in functional programming languages
21:56:58 <Rubidium> and I ought to write paramater correctly next time
21:57:35 <andythenorth> it appears to work
21:57:44 <andythenorth> I didn't check if it works correctly though
22:01:11 <Rhamphoryncus> Python doesn't care about the name of self. It just has to be the first argument
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22:02:11 <andythenorth> does it even have to be first?
22:02:11 <andythenorth> seems if I write def foo(_)
22:02:11 <andythenorth> or def foo(bar, _)
22:03:05 <valhallasw> conventions states it's 'self' for instance fns and 'cls' for static functions
22:03:06 <Rhamphoryncus> The main advantage of explicit self is it's obvious "self.x = 11" assigns an attribute, not a local. To a much less degree this applies to reading out attributes too. Of course that doesn't make it necessary to put in the argument list
22:03:31 * valhallasw hates reading C++/C#-code that doesn't use this->var
22:03:36 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: the latter would have bar as self
22:03:47 <andythenorth> as long as I use _.stuff in __initi__ then all seems to be well
22:04:03 * SmatZ shares valhallasw's opinion
22:04:28 <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: python has both static methods and class methods. static methods aren't passed any instance (they're just ordinary functions, but with a wrapper to prevent method binding), while it's class methods that use cls
22:05:02 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: not possible. Wanna put your example on a pastebin?
22:05:50 <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: I think openttd is spoiling me ;)
22:06:36 <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: ah, you're right, I never knew that (I meant a class method, and called it 'static method' from a C#-perspective)
22:07:21 <Rhamphoryncus> That's why I chimed in. A few other languages treat them as the same thing. If you can access the class through lexical scoping then they are the same thing
22:07:41 <Rhamphoryncus> Which you CAN do in python, but class methods are passed the subclass, while the lexical scope would be the base class
22:09:08 <andythenorth> Rhamphoryncus: I defer to you :)
22:09:28 <Rubidium> "class method" is a very confusing name, so please don't use it ;)
22:10:09 <Rubidium> in some languages it's the static method, in others it's the object/instance method
22:11:42 <Rhamphoryncus> I was going to respond, but I've gotten lost in my head trying to remember the specifics of how classes are created
22:11:44 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
22:12:04 * andythenorth ponders actual...newgrf and stuff
22:12:10 <Rhamphoryncus> And the descriptor protocol and how it's used for normal methods and class methods
22:12:15 <andythenorth> BANDIT trucks have 0-3 trailers
22:12:29 <andythenorth> I need some buy menu text about that
22:12:48 <andythenorth> some trucks have no trailers (so they can route to drive-in stops)
22:12:51 <Rhamphoryncus> (If anybody wants to learn metaclasses. I'll shoot you in the leg and we'll both go home better off.)
22:13:01 <Rhamphoryncus> err, if you want to learn metaclasses *come to me*
22:13:20 <valhallasw> my proxy class is creepy enough
22:13:29 <valhallasw> __getattribute__ hell
22:13:38 <andythenorth> trucks with trailers are refittable to different numbers of trailers
22:13:49 <andythenorth> so how much info is needed about this in buy menu?
22:14:24 <valhallasw> Rhamphoryncus: object.__getattribute__(ProxyBase, '__getattribute__')(self, method)(*args, **kwargs) < beat that.
22:14:31 <andythenorth> HEQS trams (similar) state things like "refittable to: 80t in four wagons, 180t in nine wagons, 300t in 15 wagons"
22:15:08 <Rhamphoryncus> valhallasw: I forked CPython to totally redesign how threading worked. Consider yourself schooled.
22:16:08 <andythenorth> maybe that's repeatable
22:16:26 <andythenorth> I have to actually put buy menu strings in the lang file
22:16:31 <andythenorth> I can't just compose them directly :P
22:16:54 <andythenorth> same amount of code, different plan needed :P
22:17:34 <Rhamphoryncus> In 20 years openttd's internationalization code will become self-aware.
22:18:36 <andythenorth> I would settle for someone else doing the i18n on this project
22:19:08 <andythenorth> assuming that anyone wants to translate it at all
22:22:27 <andythenorth> oh how interestink
22:22:51 * andythenorth ponders a way to concatenate strings in NML without doing it properly with text stack
22:23:00 <andythenorth> string(foo_string + bar_string) fails :)
22:23:06 <andythenorth> for reasons I can guess
22:25:37 <andythenorth> solve it in python, write an excessive number of strings :P
22:25:58 <andythenorth> might be bad for future translations :(
22:27:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: just write a wrapper that generates the right code for the operator ;)
22:29:26 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if your templating work becomes complex enough, it might be better to direct said work to implement templating in nml itself
22:29:46 <Terkhen> that would be the best solution :9
22:30:07 <Rubidium> only the third iteration ;)
22:30:23 <andythenorth> that's probably horribly plausible :P
22:30:23 <andythenorth> I discussed that a bit with Yexo. It's not really desirable
22:30:29 <Rubidium> then you got most (pre)conditions clear
22:31:25 <andythenorth> using external python templating is pretty trivial anyway
22:32:28 <andythenorth> I can imagine a syntax for it in NML, but it might add unwanted complexity
22:32:28 <andythenorth> NML is pretty nice as it stands
22:32:44 <Terkhen> then code a "precompiler" for nml :)
22:34:22 <andythenorth> that is more plausible
22:34:22 <andythenorth> BANDIT is pretty much a generic truck compiler already
22:34:22 <andythenorth> assuming you agree with my design choices for trucks :P
22:34:22 <andythenorth> generic / specific /s
22:34:22 <andythenorth> we can have competing precompilers ;P
22:34:48 <andythenorth> I think that a truly generic precompiler would have so much scaffolding and so many options that it would be hard to use
22:35:07 <andythenorth> whereas writing a custom one per set is the work of half a day
22:35:46 * andythenorth has lived through the web form generator wars
22:35:52 <Terkhen> I would like a generic one that allows the equivalent of "includes", "macros" and "defines"
22:36:04 <Terkhen> without all the CPP hassle
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22:36:20 <andythenorth> it's just traded CPP hassle for python hassle ;P
22:36:51 <Terkhen> since I understand CPP and not python, I don't see the point :)
22:37:15 <andythenorth> although you weren't born knowing CPP
22:37:23 <andythenorth> unless you are very unique
22:37:26 <Terkhen> yeah, but I already did the effort of learning it :P
22:37:46 <Terkhen> that code looks more readable, though
22:38:09 <andythenorth> it's just more fun to have a templating language that has object(s) in scope
22:38:16 <andythenorth> so you can call methods on them for example
22:38:21 <andythenorth> and to have iterators
22:38:43 <andythenorth> and to be able to CONCATENATE A FRICKING STRING WITHOUT FIVE LINES OF(CODE)
22:39:21 <andythenorth> and also it's nice not to have groundhog day every time you ask a question, e.g.
22:39:23 <Terkhen> string1 ## string2 IIRC
22:39:29 * andythenorth "I have a CPP question"
22:39:38 <andythenorth> someone: "you're using the wrong tool"
22:39:43 <andythenorth> repeat ad infinitum :P
22:40:30 <andythenorth> Terkhen: try concatenating two variadic macros
22:40:35 <andythenorth> I have the solution somewhere
22:40:37 <Terkhen> if there is not a right tool, how can you have a wrong one?
22:40:51 * Terkhen never needed to do such complicated stuff
22:41:58 <andythenorth> identifiers for articulated vehicle parts
22:42:12 <andythenorth> means composing two variadic macros together
22:42:17 <andythenorth> or finding alternatives
22:42:21 <andythenorth> I achieved both :)
22:42:37 <Terkhen> oh, right, articulated vehicles
22:42:41 <Terkhen> those are quite confusing
22:43:15 <andythenorth> eventually I had nice solutions using simple CPP, CPP variadic macros, CPP written out by python, then all python
22:45:07 <andythenorth> also I needed to do stuff like buy_menu_capacity = sum(truck, trailer_1, trailer_2) etc
22:46:06 <andythenorth> Terkhen: also, how is your job?
22:46:28 <Terkhen> fine, still learning what we are supposed to do
22:46:40 <Terkhen> but this part is interesting :)
22:48:08 <Terkhen> IIRC nml can handle the + operator in most places
22:48:55 <andythenorth> which is good :)
22:49:16 <andythenorth> but the consist variables are mostly not available in purchase menu
22:49:42 <andythenorth> and nml can't expose item properties in any way to expressions except via newgrf vars
22:50:01 <Terkhen> hmm... my nml is quite rusty, but I remember using variables
22:50:10 <andythenorth> if it could do something like ${item.capacity} when compiling...then it would be interesting
22:50:26 <andythenorth> and if it could have arbitrary properties on an item...
22:51:38 <andythenorth> that's what I've approximated :)
22:51:57 <andythenorth> it's only one parsing step away from possibility
22:52:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause could probably figure it out
22:52:12 <Terkhen> allowing to access properties of already defined items
22:52:27 <andythenorth> item properties is equivalent to dict syntax anyway
22:54:43 <andythenorth> it's same syntax as python dict, except for using ';' as delimiter instead of ','
22:55:05 <andythenorth> parsing it would probably be trivial
23:00:18 <Terkhen> yeah, sleeping sounds good
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23:07:18 <Rhamphoryncus> Hmm, I do believe I need to implement a sort on the shared vehicle list when it gets loaded. Let's see how bad of an algorithm I can choose :D
23:31:18 <michi_cc> Rhamphoryncus: If you (re)calculate something on load take very good care that the result will deterministically match what the server has at the same time. If not, you're on direct route to a desyncer.
23:39:18 *** _11Runner_ has joined #openttd
23:43:53 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, I was thinking about that
23:46:02 <michi_cc> You probably don't do that, but as a general note: *Never* sort by memory address.
23:48:28 <planetmaker> by square of it? :-P
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