IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-24
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00:11:53 <planetmaker> monmaji: use the ingame content download and download a music set
00:12:03 <planetmaker> then go to the game options and select another than NoSound
00:12:22 <planetmaker> or rather than NoMusic
00:12:50 <monmaji> Woogoo I figures it out! Thanks planet but what i ended up finding was the OPENMSX readme on the downloads page that gave me instructions on where to put the file, i checke there and the folder was missing so i downloaded it and BAM it sounds great agian!
00:13:16 <monmaji> I tried the in game content downloader bot openMSX wasnt on that list
00:13:55 <planetmaker> and you did access the ingame content download from the main menu?
00:14:01 <planetmaker> and looked in the base set section?
00:14:02 <monmaji> I do appreciate the attempt to help. Yes i did
00:14:43 <appe> as usual, excuse the url.
00:15:02 <monmaji> i dotn see base set selection
00:15:16 <monmaji> but when i filter it for MSX its not there
00:15:43 <planetmaker> Ah, it's under "Musicset"
00:15:54 <monmaji> the readme is wrong then
00:16:20 <monmaji> thats where i go tmy info
00:17:34 <monmaji> Still got it figured out though. so all is well
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02:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> grmbl... how many things have to go wrong that python crashes?
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11:32:02 <chester> hi all, who can explain what is the difference between secondary and tertiary industries? there are no explanations in wiki as for primary
11:33:48 <chester> now tertiary consists of toy shop (accerts only), printing works and factory (accepts and produces)
11:36:09 <andythenorth> chain is primary -> secondary -> tertiary
11:36:22 <andythenorth> so forest -> paper mill -> printing works
11:36:35 <andythenorth> or coal mine -> steel mill -> factory
11:36:52 <andythenorth> primary = produces with no inputs
11:37:11 <andythenorth> secondary = produces from primary delivered cargo
11:37:19 <andythenorth> tertiary = produces from secondary delivered cargo
11:38:06 <chester> ah now i c, first i though that tertiary is accepting non-producing ones
11:38:26 <andythenorth> may or may not produce
11:39:18 <andythenorth> the real world definition of tertiary is something like 'produces services, not products'
11:39:24 <andythenorth> but that is not so relevant here :)
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11:41:12 <chester> im gonna put couple of words to with this
11:41:17 <spongie> Hello. I have problems when playing online, sometimes before i have time to set a password, some anonymous player will join my company, borrow cash and steal all the money. Is there a way to remove a player from the company?
11:43:00 <SpComb> doesn't the game have a default company password now?
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11:45:34 <spongie> dunno. this has happened more than once anyway.
11:46:24 <chester> you should enter the server as spectator, then create a company
11:46:45 <chester> this leave little time to join and steal
11:47:35 <chester> or if you have slow connection he has planty of time to do this
11:48:32 <chester> spectator-create-fast simple password-your password
12:03:57 <SpComb> as in, I recall seeing some button to set a default password that's used when creating a new company
12:08:55 <chester> iv found an option in openttd.cfg
12:10:10 <chester> but dont have any button ingame
12:11:08 <planetmaker> spongie, set a default password for your company. Then you don't have to do that manually
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13:57:04 <spongie> planetmaker: good point
13:57:38 <spongie> it's also the second time now when some bored player terraform around my stuff and buy the land to shut my operations down
13:59:19 <spongie> the same guy build railtracks on roads and put a train there for permablock
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16:25:41 <Jupix> diar diary, today I got greenlighted by one senior lecturer to write my bachelor's thesis on the subject of openttd :P
16:26:58 <Jupix> though I'm now gonna have to appear before a think tank of a few other senior lecturers / UAS brass and they can still shoot it down if they so decide
16:27:40 <blathijs> Jupix: Awesome! Any specific question you'll be looking at?
16:28:07 <Jupix> which one, is not sure yet
16:28:48 <Jupix> but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev
16:29:28 <Jupix> so either licensing, or project lifecycle, or open-source development as a business case, or something like that..
16:30:01 <planetmaker> as a business case might be... a bit difficult with OpenTTD as example ;-)
16:30:02 <blathijs> Jupix: For what Bachelor?
16:30:28 <Jupix> business administration with emphasis on business law
16:31:13 <planetmaker> wrt licensing "fun" OpenTTD and its extensions on the other hand is a very fruitful test case
16:31:25 <Jupix> planetmaker: I thought about that argument on my way home. it's actually not as crazy as it sounds. we've got most aspects of business life covered, just the profit is missing
16:32:18 <__ln__> Jupix: how about "Planting Trees as a Strategy for Gaining Popularity Among the Consumers of the Locally Relevant City Inhabitants"?
16:32:38 <Jupix> we have people who make the machine work, we have something that loosely fits the description of an organization, with its own culture, we've got infrastructure, and we have a product and a core competence
16:34:55 <michi_cc> If you look at it less "business-ish", profit doesn't have to mean money, but can also be intangible things like common good.
16:37:20 <SpComb> profit = common good earned - common evil generated? :)
16:38:19 <Jupix> common evil as in people playing openttd @ work? :D
16:40:55 <Rubidium> no, evil as in playing it while doing your thesis presentation ;)
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17:22:49 <planetmaker> Jupix, you still have the wrong real-life scales in the document :-(
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17:29:29 <Jupix> planetmaker: but... I specifically added a reminder that scale changes on an item to item basis
17:30:14 <planetmaker> "Releases may or may not be immediately accompanied by sources and
17:30:14 <planetmaker> licensing information." Right. That's absolutely incompatible with GPL. Release and provide source. Or violate license
17:30:51 <Rubidium> planetmaker: not really
17:30:58 <Rubidium> you can release without the source
17:31:11 <Rubidium> you just need to send the source code when someone asks for it
17:31:24 <planetmaker> yeah. But not without licensing information, Rubidium
17:31:54 <Rubidium> well, if it has no license then you basically can't use it
17:32:05 <planetmaker> Jupix, and it misses IMHO the only really important point: making clear there's one license and only one license which the project works with
17:32:19 <planetmaker> it talks again about this and that and compatible and so on.
17:32:23 <Jupix> note the difference between the 32bit project and the base set replacement project
17:33:03 <Jupix> the former includes newgrf's etc which I can't tell everyone to start licensing under GPL
17:33:17 <Jupix> the latter is GPL or compatible only and requires sources as a mandate
17:33:31 <Jupix> which p.15 is pretty clear about, correct?
17:36:33 <planetmaker> what's that talk then about which I quoted?
17:36:33 <Jupix> incidentally p.15 is where the part you're most interested in begins. content before that is something i suggest for everything including 32bpp newgrfs
17:36:52 <Jupix> all 32bit graphics, including stuff like the spainset, etc...
17:37:26 <Jupix> the GPL stuff, the "opengfx 32bit" for lack of a better word is from p.15 onwards
17:37:35 <Jupix> it's only a subset of the whole
17:37:51 <planetmaker> I guess this distinction should be made absolutely clear. And IMHO NewGRFs can be left out completely. Probably should
17:38:30 <Jupix> I'd like to keep it in there for consistency and clarity mainly
17:38:32 <planetmaker> it can be easily missed, especially through the lengthy definition of terms and words which rival about the documents I receive from space administrations
17:39:32 <Jupix> how about paragraph 1 of chapter 5?
17:39:37 <Jupix> does it leave room for confusion?
17:39:52 <planetmaker> it talks about undefined things
17:40:36 <planetmaker> Naming of zoom levels. I'd call the zoom levels by what they really are: 1x 2x and 4x
17:40:47 <planetmaker> where 1x is TTD default
17:41:55 <planetmaker> oh, you mean the one preceeding chapter 5.1?
17:42:05 <planetmaker> Well. IMHO there's little point to talk about NewGRFs
17:43:25 <Jupix> I just kinda disagree I guess ;) I'd like stuff like the spainset to go as much by the same visual and release standards as possible .. although I obviously can't force those into the mould
17:43:29 <planetmaker> it adds nothing to the point. It distracts from the project's purpose.
17:43:53 <planetmaker> I don't say it's not good. But NewGRFs can do what they want anyway. They're well advised to follow the base set.
17:44:11 <planetmaker> But including them in these specs is a digression which dilutes the contents and purpose of the paper as a whole
17:44:43 <Jupix> I don't agree completely but I do understand . I'm thinking right now ...
17:47:14 <Jupix> I am kinda heavily leaning towards keeping it as-is, because there are heavy arguments towards making it so, such as getting all that stuff released using the same delivery method ... the issue of clarity as far as making that policy overwhelm the reader is a problem that can be fixed at the wiki phase I believe ... it might not be worth another rewrite of the spec to just reorder it or break it down into base set rules and general a
17:47:50 <Jupix> do you agree this is something that could be worked when the stuff is on wiki ?
17:48:26 <Jupix> after all there are few rules that are imposed on newgrfs per se...
17:50:23 <planetmaker> I think it's bad style to pose for "public vote" (by whom) a summary package which even we two barely can overview as a whole
17:50:40 <planetmaker> you'll get the answers. They'll be all "fine, let's go". But... to what avail?
17:50:55 <planetmaker> They'll be given without sound knowledge of the implications bare the technical aspects and limitations
17:51:32 <planetmaker> Thus especially for this reason I'd advocate to break it down to easily digestible units which can individually be discussed than broad summary things to "vote on"
17:52:23 <planetmaker> But it's your thing. I mentioned also previously the issue with the scales. Obviously to no avail. Thus... I don't feel like lengthy arguing tbh.
17:52:46 <Belugas> strange... just realized that VOTE and VETO are anagrams...
17:53:11 <planetmaker> IMHO the whole thing to "put in stone" is a tad early.
17:53:26 <planetmaker> I'd suggest a few graphics guide lines for the objects and sprites.
17:53:27 <Jupix> this layout of the spec has been viewable and commentable since march 2010, and no one complained about it but you, planetmaker, not even youself until now that we're into its 7th revision :P
17:53:36 <planetmaker> I'd skip the technical part on zoom levels as that's so far undefined
17:54:23 <planetmaker> Jupix, considered the the possibility of "no need for specs beyond 'graphics are to be in ttd style'"?
17:54:24 <Jupix> and I did "fix" the issue you had with the scale bit, but obviously not to your satisfaction, which you also didn't write down in the thread I posted in the 32bit forum
17:55:10 <Jupix> well, I think the spec speaks pretty fine for why there is need for such a thing
17:55:16 <planetmaker> Bad luck then that I didn't find the "right" thread?
17:56:26 <planetmaker> I'm sure I mentioned the graphics scale more than once. But well.
17:56:40 <planetmaker> Take the input as you get it. Do with it what you like
17:57:21 <Jupix> you mentioned nothing about the scale fix not being to your satisfaction
17:57:38 <planetmaker> so do I always have to repeat myself?
17:57:48 <planetmaker> as you obviously even remember?
17:58:14 <Jupix> is it repetition, if the information was not posted in the first place?
17:58:26 <planetmaker> anyway. This discussion of who said what when where is fruitless and besides every point
18:00:03 <Jupix> well, like I said, this has been planned and available for about 2 years now. I think we're past "what's the point"
18:00:29 <Jupix> I just had to post it, since I thought it was done and fixed, and no one commented further
18:01:47 <Jupix> would you like me to paste the revision before that communication, and the revised version?
18:02:29 <planetmaker> no need. The graphics scale is given at least in the one we see now.
18:02:49 <planetmaker> which is the point I talked about ;-)
18:03:05 <Jupix> are you blind to the bolded bit below it?
18:03:41 <planetmaker> so you make graphs which give a scale and in the text you deny the scale given in the graphs? Sounds... not good. People read images
18:03:50 <planetmaker> That's what sticks
18:05:53 <Jupix> uh, well yes, that paper is written with the assumption that a man interested in issue X will read the bit concerning it in its entirety, including text
18:06:16 <Jupix> since it's pretty low on useless words anyway
18:06:29 <Jupix> if you just glance through half of it, sure you'll probably be confused
18:06:34 <Jupix> I think that goes for any spec
18:06:49 <planetmaker> The first thing under "7.5 Scale" is "In z0, one square equals 12.5 x 12.5 meters, and 512 x 512 pixels"
18:06:56 <planetmaker> It's highlighted by being separated from the text
18:07:05 <planetmaker> The big image below, gives exactly that again
18:08:04 <Jupix> the bolded bit overrules that for airplanes and ships etc
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18:08:26 <Jupix> it's just putting into words what should be obvious to an artist
18:08:31 <planetmaker> And the text then says "can be scaled down to a size that makes sense in the context". Then the whole scale makes no sense. Thus the specs are highly ambiguous.
18:09:01 <planetmaker> And the main impression which it gives is "use this exact scale unless absolutely not possible"
18:09:12 <Jupix> scale *has* to be ambiguous by the very definition of our game engine, right?
18:09:38 <planetmaker> exactly. And that's why it should just be removed from there. Especially any figures which relate pixels to metres
18:09:54 <planetmaker> It's nothing which a set should even try to rectify
18:10:21 <Jupix> why remove it when it is a useful guideline?
18:10:25 <planetmaker> Just remove the first paragraph and both images from that subchapter and then it will befine
18:10:30 <planetmaker> it's not a useful guide.
18:10:34 <planetmaker> It's a misguidance
18:10:47 <planetmaker> for exactly the reason: it does not apply.
18:11:20 <planetmaker> It doesn't apply for a train
18:11:25 <planetmaker> It doesn't apply for a building
18:11:34 <planetmaker> It doesn't apply for an industry
18:11:39 <planetmaker> it doesn't apply for a tree
18:12:30 <planetmaker> The simple words "use the same proportions and scalings as found in the existing base sets" is much much clearer and much much less ambiguous
18:13:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Pity that conditional load orders for the current station don't equate to "load to this amount"
18:13:50 <Jupix> planetmaker: your above 6 lines or so are the first ones with some real information :D
18:14:28 <planetmaker> That's what I said before: it applies to _no_ _single_ game item. Except maybe road vehicles
18:14:37 <Jupix> because until now that scale was factual to me for trains, trees, rv's, etc, because it was conceived by someone who'd done it all, meaning Ben R.
18:14:39 <planetmaker> But even there the height is wrong
18:15:08 <planetmaker> as a bus is also just one height level. And they're much higher than 2m
18:15:29 <planetmaker> and a bus is longer than 6m
18:15:42 <planetmaker> thus a normal cab is then at the right scale. Maybe
18:15:58 <Eddi|zuHause> [24.01.2012 17:28] <Jupix> but it's almost certainly some aspect of 32bit gfxdev <-- you mean "what causes such an interesting project to be an utter failure"?
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18:16:57 <Jupix> it's not an utter failure either :D
18:17:14 <Jupix> it's funny you should even make such a claim :D
18:17:22 <Jupix> shows some true ignorance in its purest form
18:17:24 <Eddi|zuHause> just barely above the BROS set
18:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Jupix: if you look besides the awesome graphics, exactly _nothing_ of value has been produced
18:18:48 <Jupix> and since the product of the project is awesome graphics, I don't get why you would "look besides" those
18:20:03 <planetmaker> well, "nice graphics" is somewhat the point of the project, not, Eddi|zuHause ?
18:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> no, a "product" is something that is practically usable. i.e. in 32bpp-context a download that can be put into the game
18:20:46 <Jupix> what part of that does not exist, right now?
18:22:15 <Jupix> also, do you think it moves the project along to diss it in public with lies, like this?
18:22:50 <Jupix> and why would you want it to *not* have the best probability of sucess?
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18:31:34 <Rubidium> Jupix: there is at least a lack of recent "32bpp-ez sprite" supporting binaries
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18:32:13 <Jupix> that problem might be solved with ez sprite loading in trunk ;)
18:33:01 <Rubidium> the problem is that the sprite loading is very slow at the moment
18:33:38 <Rubidium> at least for the 32bpp that has to look for multiple files, etc
18:33:46 <Rubidium> especially in the way that currently happens
18:34:01 <Jupix> got any suggestions how to fix that?
18:34:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Jupix: another aspect is the amount of "work" already done compared to e.g. the 8bpp replacement (opengfx)
18:35:01 <Jupix> Eddi|zuHause: the amount of "work" done in 32 bits right now is *vast*
18:35:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Jupix: not in comparison with the amount of "work" that needs to be done
18:35:22 <Rubidium> Jupix: there is an idea that puts in just in the GRF
18:35:40 <michi_cc> Jupix: GRF container version 2 which will store all sprites (32bpp and/or more zoom levels) directly inside the GRF file.
18:36:32 <Jupix> Eddi|zuHause: your solution to that is to undermine what's been done already?
18:36:48 <Rubidium> Jupix: agreed, the amount of work done for 32 bits graphics is vast, however... not all are consistent and many if not all think that 32bpp graphics entails things that are outside of the scope of changing the number of colours per pixel
18:37:28 <Rubidium> like shadows on/over other tiles, grass over other tiles, longer vehicles, curved corners, ...
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18:37:50 <Jupix> the consistency I'm trying to improve as best as in my almost non-existent power
18:37:57 <mib_mf7f6w> watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) www.twitch.tv/splitfirelive - Support by just watching !
18:37:58 <mib_mf7f6w> watch splitfirelive gamestream(playing league of legends) www.twitch.tv/splitfirelive - Support by just watching !
18:38:51 <Jupix> the "artists's wet dreams" as I like to call the rest of what you wrote are something that is not holding the sprite conversion progress back, I think
18:39:17 <Rubidium> no, but many sprites are drawn using those assumptions
18:39:56 <michi_cc> Jupix: A lot of the sprites aren't usable IMNSHO. Either because of things that stick out to the sides (grass, shadows etc), because of inconsistencies between similar sprites, overreliance on the ez-patch recolour algorithm or because they are plain ugly (sorry, but I think those squashed rail vehicles do not look good).
18:42:51 <Jupix> Rubidium: that is a problem of the artist in question, IMO... most of them know better and if they do it still, should be aware that they can't be used if they bug out in the unpatched binary
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18:43:15 <Jupix> michi_cc: bugs are bugs. opinions as far as appearance are opinions.
18:43:36 <andythenorth> why not skip 32bpp and implement 3d?
18:43:50 <Jupix> you should be careful what you judge "unusable", methinks...
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18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23846 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt finnish.txt french.txt):
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 3 changes by KorneySan
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
18:45:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 22 changes by OliTTD
18:45:53 <Jupix> I find it interesting that you (all) have these opinions and think this and that are wrong, should be improved, won't do, are utter fail, or embarassing. yet I don't remember any of you posting any of it in the forums recently ... why is this? if you did post, and no one bothered to work a fix, why do you think that is?
18:46:54 <Jupix> it's kinda sad that the only one really vocally interested in the code side of 32bits is geektoo, it would appear
18:47:25 <Rubidium> well, TrueBrain was some years ago. He then implemented 32bpp and nobody used it
18:48:15 <Rubidium> having said that, I have posted long ago... but comments got ignored because "the code must be changed so the graphics work the way I draw them"
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18:48:28 <Rubidium> e.g. the trains being drawn too long
18:48:56 <Rubidium> and after a while you simply don't really care anymore
18:49:04 <Jupix> do you believe, were you to implement the functionality in geektoo's patch in trunk right now, and make it easier for the player to play in 32bpp, no one would use it?
18:49:49 <Jupix> as for those artist opinions. I
18:50:15 <Rubidium> the problem is not having the people wanting to use 32bpp graphics
18:50:16 <Jupix> I feel sad for the discussion that was apparently lost. you could've set them straight
18:51:13 <Rubidium> the problem is more with there being a "desync" in the perception of the changes that are going to be done to the code between the artists and the (trunk) developers
18:52:41 <Jupix> I'd be glad to fix that if you could throw me a pm and detail that desync in a bit more detail
18:52:52 <Jupix> it's clearly an information issue
18:53:29 <Jupix> perhaps on both sides because for the current actives I don't think anyone expects the devs to implement anything besides ez sprite loading and ingame change of blitter
18:54:11 <Rubidium> AllTaken has drawn beautiful switches and bridges, but they're "useless" because the code doesn't work that way, and we want to keep the TTD style. Not create a complete new game with a few hints of the TTD economy
18:55:22 <Jupix> he hasn't been drawing as long as I've been around, and I've been around since 2008 or something...
18:55:58 <Rubidium> well, no need for a pm. The desync is simply that the developers think: replace sprites and possibly improve the recolouring a bit, *all* other stuff is not what 32bpp is about. For the artists all the other stuff is what 32bpp is about, not the actual sprite replacement
18:57:22 <Jupix> yep ... I recall seeing that file at least 3, probably closer to 5 years ago
18:57:52 <Jupix> no one expects that to be implemented today, tomorrow or 2 years from now, no one also draws stuff that wild
18:58:36 <Rubidium> Jupix: but those drawings were from 2005. Ever since the artists started with 32bpp graphics that was their idea
18:58:48 <Rubidium> (the curved tracks and such)
18:59:17 <Jupix> an idea of a couple artists, not the project!
18:59:34 <Rubidium> but that artist *was* the project
18:59:49 <Alberth> so, how many sprites exist today that work in trunk?
19:00:44 <Rubidium> true, but all those graphics and history is what people see scrolling through the threads. They expect that and start drawing like that. The bits of comment that the few developers give are text and are more easily missed than stunning looking graphics
19:02:14 <Jupix> Rubidium: 1. I think the basic premise of that argument is untrue. everywhere we say we are implementing openttd in 32 bits, not all the curved tracks jazz, not yet. and 2. you need to be more vocal as devs and really set the record straight, if you think people in there are wrong
19:02:25 <Jupix> you can't just disappear out of conversations and think you've made your point
19:03:08 <Alberth> Jupix: that would be a full time job, as 32bpp is not the only sub-project
19:03:42 <Alberth> if the project owner does not care, why should we ?
19:03:56 <Jupix> who is the project owner?
19:04:23 <Rubidium> Jupix: but after months telling your bank that you moved house and they still haven't fixed their administration you just go to another bank, right?
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19:05:08 <Jupix> Rubidium: I honestly don't understand
19:05:37 <Alberth> telling the same thing over and over again without getting your point across tends to be very frustrating
19:05:51 <Alberth> so after a while you stop doing that
19:06:01 * andythenorth proposes deleting the 32bpp forums
19:06:13 <andythenorth> it's pure tumbleweed afaict
19:06:21 <Rubidium> you can keep telling people over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over that something is wrong, but eventually you reach a moment where it is "too much" and you just "zone" out
19:06:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: nah, they will just create a new one, probably all over the place :)
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19:07:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: maybe it's done right this time though?
19:07:08 <andythenorth> and maybe we have less 'they'? :)
19:07:23 <andythenorth> as long as it's 'they' not 'we' it's not happening
19:07:50 <Alberth> looking at recent "help I don't get 32bpp running" spam I am not too optimistic :p
19:08:20 <andythenorth> personally I don't give 2 craps about 32bpp
19:08:21 <andythenorth> but if support is needed for improving the process it might be worth providing
19:08:25 <Jupix> Rubidium: this is so unbelievably frustrating to me because I'm trying to prevent that exact kind of information blackout
19:08:59 <Jupix> Alberth: sadly that is an issue with something altogether than standardizing sprites
19:10:05 <Alberth> yep, it's a different issue. But it adds to the confusion
19:10:31 <Jupix> the 32bit game is difficult to set up. that's why there is that spam. I've tried to do my best to write guides and tutorials and encourage others to do the same, but in the end there's only so much you can do before it stops being an information problem and starts being a technical implementation problem that we don't have the person to correct
19:10:59 <Rubidium> andythenorth: without a 32bpp blitter you probably wouldn't even have OpenTTD on your computer
19:13:39 <Jupix> there are problems with the graphics creation bit, sure. but there are also problems that are not within the 32bit contributors power to fix, such as the whole thing being so difficult to set up from scratch, and the devs abandoning it as a project (you don't need to convince me that it was for a good reason at some point, I get it)
19:14:27 <Jupix> I think it's difficult to justify anyone crisizing me or the project for the latter part
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19:15:00 <Jupix> also, the "they" and "us" issue. that really saddens me. are we really such outcasts?
19:15:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Jupix: If there is any project owner or leader it's not something I, as an outsider, can see
19:15:24 <Rhamphoryncus> Which is a common problem for open source games
19:15:29 <Jupix> yep. that's the point. there is none
19:15:36 <Jupix> no developer has taken it as his pet
19:16:18 <Jupix> there's also been no competent contributor who could've made it to developerness
19:16:31 <Rhamphoryncus> I have the time and the skill to do major patches. I have itches to scratch. But I don't bother because I can't expect my patches to be applied (or seriously discussed, preferably before I put the effort it.)
19:16:40 <Alberth> Jupix: why do you need a developer?
19:16:51 <Alberth> can you not make normal zoom 32bpp?
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19:17:13 <Rubidium> Jupix: it's a massive chicken-egg problem
19:18:24 <Rubidium> it's the same thing opengfx had to conquer
19:18:45 <Jupix> Alberth: we can make normal zoom 32bits, of course we can. what devs are needed for is twofold: 1. to solve the programminng issues and make the end-user experience as good as it can be, and 2. to serve as a motivation, to show that the thing has support
19:19:13 <Rubidium> they started to work and had a way of showing the sprites. Once it started to get over a critical point it became interesting for the developers to invest some time in making it loaded easily
19:19:45 <Rubidium> then once it was loaded easily opengfx got a spurt completing the rest of the sprites
19:20:02 <Jupix> would you not say we are moving in the same direction?
19:20:58 <Jupix> we may not be there yet ... but we're moving
19:21:40 <Jupix> the only thing I can do my best for is to get "our" act together as best I can, and hope we make enough progress that the technical side will get love as well
19:21:50 <Rubidium> but you don't really have an artist "in the lead", i.e. doing a lot of work pulling other into it
19:22:04 <Jupix> I know. that's very sad
19:22:04 <Rhamphoryncus> Something like getsatisfaction (but free) could be very effective for proposing ideas, if the head developer put enough regular effort it to discuss and approve ideas
19:23:35 <Alberth> Jupix: programming issues for trunk?
19:23:43 <Jupix> Ben R. used to be a huge force behind 32 bits but he's currently on an overseas assignment @ work. yes, we don't have a powerhouse like Zephyris at opengfx. I'm hoping someone like him will turn up at 32 bits. perhaps even he, himself since he did his work in 32 bits I think, and then converted to 8 bits
19:24:04 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23847 /trunk/src/road_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when removing road or tram from a tram+road stop, the owner of the road stop's cache was updated instead of the owner of the removed infrastructure
19:24:38 <andythenorth> the chicken egg problem would be solved if someone like me started making 32bpp (EZ?) sets
19:24:41 <Jupix> Alberth: programmning issues *out of* trunk would be preferable ;)
19:24:59 <Jupix> andythenorth: it would help
19:25:09 <Jupix> it wouldn't guarantee instant success
19:25:11 <Alberth> Jupix: usually waiting for someone to come along is a bad strategy; people will only come/contribute when there something is happening/existing
19:25:40 <Jupix> I've already stated today that as it stands there *is* something happening and existing within 32 bits
19:25:54 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: ideas are easy to propose. However, finding the right way to implement that idea is something totally different. The idea of path signals is very simple, yet it required several attempts before having something workable
19:26:25 <Rubidium> so even when the idea is approved, it doesn't mean that a particuar implementation of that idea is going to get approved
19:26:39 <Jupix> Alberth: also - what do you suggest? I go and hire someone?
19:26:46 <Jupix> or someone else does so?
19:27:14 <Jupix> or perhaps you suggest we should, as a community of artists, admit defeat and abandon the project?
19:27:42 <Alberth> Just start yourself is my usual answer, but I don't know if you did that already
19:28:46 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: yup. What I was thinking is a particular implementation could be approved for experimentation, meaning it's worth implementing, then it can be further evaluated when done
19:30:06 <Jupix> Alberth: sadly, my talents are not in making graphics. if they were you can be damn sure I would be drawing. I've done something else to the best of my ability. in fact I think I've done a lot considering I'm at the same level as any other player
19:30:22 <Rubidium> Rhamphoryncus: but then you've implemented it already, right? Problem is that you're only discovering many of the preconditions while doing the actual implementation which requires changing the implementation
19:30:49 <Rubidium> many things that are currently in trunk have gone through multiple iterations. Either in trunk, or before they got implemented
19:30:55 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: there's a lot that can be planned before attempting the real work
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19:31:33 <Rubidium> e.g. noai is the third (or maybe even fourth) generation AI solution
19:31:51 <Rhamphoryncus> Such as scheduling. I've come up with a decent way to do it, but I don't want to deal with GUI or saving issues if it's not gonna be used
19:32:43 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, but with AI it's clear you WANT a better AI. The general idea is accepted
19:33:08 <Rubidium> we want better scheduling
19:33:17 <Rubidium> general idea is approved ;)
19:34:54 <andythenorth> Jupix: without a pikka or a michael blunck or a purno or a danmack or a sanchimaru or a snail or a zephyris etc, it's not going anywhere
19:35:28 <andythenorth> projects need at least one person who contributes in excess to the others
19:35:30 <Rhamphoryncus> Yeah, so the current system is I have to learn who has commit rights and can accept major patches, then ask them directly if it's worth doing.
19:36:08 <andythenorth> 'community' projects universally fail in my experience
19:36:21 <Jupix> andythenorth: I can only try and make it so that that person finds it compelling to start drawing
19:36:30 <andythenorth> projects with communities tend to succeed
19:37:19 <andythenorth> 32bpp is beset with issues
19:37:33 <andythenorth> such as - what is it?
19:37:42 * andythenorth doesn't understand it
19:39:55 <Rhamphoryncus> There's.. a paper? I wouldn't expect have expected that much design to be necessary just to bump the colour depth
19:40:07 <Jupix> there may exist an issue with bad karma or something at this point. so no matter how well I document stuff, no matter how many sprites get drawn or how easy it is to set the game up, some people just won't care because once in the past there were problems that were important to that particular person
19:40:15 <andythenorth> the paper is fine
19:40:21 <andythenorth> what is 32bpp though?
19:40:42 <andythenorth> it's cgi graphics?
19:40:53 <andythenorth> is my understanding
19:41:06 <Jupix> it's an ecosystem of sprite drawing in lotsa colors and rez, for openttd
19:41:55 <andythenorth> (for buildings etc)
19:41:56 <Alberth> Jupix: the only good reason to do something is because you want to do something. Not because you are any good at it
19:42:11 <Jupix> andythenorth: the aim is to support all of it
19:42:32 * andythenorth mostly applies that rule
19:42:36 <Alberth> Belugas: I am good at make-believe :p
19:42:42 <andythenorth> but being good makes winning easier
19:42:47 * andythenorth likes winning best
19:43:13 <Jupix> Alberth: I don't get on my two feet and jump out into space. even if I want to. because I know I can't. more to the point, if I were to start out in artistry, I know I would fail, because I don't have the eye for it
19:43:26 <andythenorth> Jupix: so what's the overarching goal of 32bpp?
19:43:46 <andythenorth> and if it's cgi, why not use free models?
19:43:58 <Rubidium> andythenorth: whom's goal? ;)
19:44:18 <andythenorth> it seems the project is trvial, just find free models and render them?
19:44:30 <andythenorth> Rubidium: Jupix's goal
19:44:31 <Jupix> some more distant than others
19:44:32 <Alberth> that is many - 1 too many
19:44:47 <andythenorth> or primary, secondary, tertiary
19:45:43 <Jupix> oh, my personal goal, my vision, is to have the game installer ask if the player wants our set to be installed, and if he so chooses, it gets done, and works outta box
19:45:50 <Alberth> Jupix: you cannot define 3d models? it's just a bunch of coordinates. Note that I did not say you have to be any good
19:45:55 <andythenorth> and it looks like?
19:46:46 <Jupix> Alberth: I don't think I have to debate what constitutes art with you :p
19:46:52 <andythenorth> does it have consistent palette
19:46:58 <andythenorth> does it have consistent style for models?
19:47:21 <andythenorth> for example, if you replaced toyland with lego-style stuff, you would have:
19:47:24 <andythenorth> - consistent style
19:47:31 <andythenorth> - consistent dimensions and shapes for models
19:47:36 <andythenorth> - consistent palette (limit it)
19:47:53 <andythenorth> which would become achievable
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19:48:13 <Jupix> why ask me all these things when they are, in essence, answered in the 24-or-so page long paper you claim you read in 1 minute?
19:49:42 <Jupix> also, did Zephyris etc. who started work on opengfx, know exactly how it turned out before they started work on it?
19:49:46 <Terkhen> andy likes to ask questions :P
19:50:01 <andythenorth> Jupix: zephyris might be your best bet incidentally
19:50:08 <andythenorth> he's prolific and likes cgi
19:50:11 <andythenorth> but he's busy :(
19:50:39 <Jupix> haven't bothered him with it so far
19:51:56 <andythenorth> the paper looks fine to me
19:52:06 <andythenorth> if it was me trying to do this....
19:52:19 <andythenorth> - get a project on the openttdcoop devzone
19:52:24 <andythenorth> - convert the pdf to html
19:52:33 <andythenorth> - start learning blender
19:52:37 <andythenorth> - make whatever I could
19:52:47 <andythenorth> - bug the devs to make 32bpp unconfusing
19:52:50 <andythenorth> (it confuses me)
19:52:55 <andythenorth> sometimes devs do the right thing
19:53:06 <andythenorth> and sometimes they are blind to VERY IMPORTANT ISSUES
19:53:18 <andythenorth> like newgrf control of smoke for ships :
19:53:22 <andythenorth> to name an example
19:53:47 <Rhamphoryncus> Art and coding should be separate projects. Coding only requires placeholder graphics so you know it works.
19:53:54 <andythenorth> that's a nice theory
19:54:00 <andythenorth> I've tried it both sides
19:54:23 <andythenorth> art | code separate works
19:54:26 <andythenorth> art + code works
19:54:52 <andythenorth> art + code produces a more cohesive result
19:55:02 <andythenorth> but bizarrely, I think you get *more* reworking that way
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19:55:58 <andythenorth> Jupix: looks to me like you're doing nearly everything right, apart from use of pdf etc which are minor
19:56:06 <andythenorth> your unsolvable is lack of artist(s)
19:56:27 <andythenorth> you have to pay, persuade, get lucky, or do it yourself
19:56:58 <Jupix> get over the pdf, it says in the thread it was released in and I think in the pdf itself that if people find it fine it goes on the wiki
19:57:59 <Jupix> other than that, you're of course right
19:58:20 <Jupix> I'm hoping to achieve the center 2
19:58:24 <andythenorth> FIRS is nearly 3
19:58:48 <andythenorth> when will the fricking thing be done? :P
20:00:03 <Alberth> the main project owner is somewhat reluctant to declare the project finished perhaps? :p
20:01:30 <andythenorth> the main project owner is ducking some issues
20:01:50 <andythenorth> Jupix: FWIW, I had no idea about hex when I started coding newgrfs
20:01:59 <andythenorth> and people here will confirm I have no eye for code :P
20:04:03 <Jupix> you probably wouldn't believe how much time and energy I sink into the stuff I already do as far as administration. I'm not saying learning blender and how to model good-looking graphics would be too time-consuming, I'm saying, currently for me it would be simply impossible, given the time constraint of 24 hours per day
20:04:37 <andythenorth> Jupix: do you have any children?
20:04:51 <Jupix> thank god no, otherwise I wouldn't probably even be contributing :D
20:05:07 <Jupix> minutes and hours are also only a part of it. defending the thing like this takes an emotional toll. it's funny how much drama an open-source project can generate. it's worse than relationships
20:05:22 <andythenorth> I don't think you're defending here
20:05:25 <andythenorth> I think you're advocating
20:05:51 <Jupix> when devs and artists don't see eye to eye and I have to stand in the middle, I kinda get the worst of both parties, and none of the good stuff. except in the end if there is a product
20:05:56 <andythenorth> which is better than the sucky cargo piles I drew in CHIPS
20:06:02 <andythenorth> Jupix: that debate is easy
20:06:07 <andythenorth> artists don't have commit rights
20:06:19 <andythenorth> and as a group, they have a lousy track record getting anything done
20:06:30 <andythenorth> the power relation is quite simple
20:06:48 <Jupix> the power relation is pretty difficult when the ones in power abandon and deny power :)
20:07:15 <Rhamphoryncus> With great power comes..
20:07:16 <andythenorth> I don't see them opening the repo or telling you to fork the project ;)
20:07:45 <Alberth> well, we cannot stop you from forking the project :p
20:07:53 <Jupix> well, fortunately, I haven't been kicked out like that. I guess I've done something right then
20:07:56 <andythenorth> you're just getting their usual level of meh :P
20:08:04 <andythenorth> they don't even bother replying to most of my stuff now
20:08:09 <andythenorth> so you at least get attention ;)
20:08:58 <Alberth> andythenorth: animated stockpiles?
20:09:18 <andythenorth> well CHIPS shows varying cargo according to amount waiting
20:09:19 <Jupix> anyway.. forking is out of the question. we've always been a community within a community, and I'm sad if I have to think of it as "them" instead of "us"
20:09:36 <Jupix> it just wouldn't be the same
20:09:53 <Alberth> I also believe forking is not useful
20:10:06 <andythenorth> it wouldn't work
20:10:17 <Jupix> more than not useful I think it would be desctructive in more ways than one
20:10:18 <andythenorth> there's no-one popped up who could maintain a fork for starters
20:10:55 <andythenorth> it's immaterial - I only mentioned it because no-one has said 'why don't you fork?'
20:10:56 <Alberth> a true fork moves in a different direction, otherwise you just have a patchpack
20:11:01 <andythenorth> which is another way of saying 'go away'
20:12:04 <Jupix> ultimately, 99% of people doing 32bpp stuff wants what's best for openttd
20:12:13 <Jupix> that's why no one's even suggested it
20:12:19 <Jupix> within that subcommunity
20:12:35 <frosch123> Jupix: did anyone ever measure the original 8bpp graphics for dimensions?
20:13:32 <Alberth> pixels would be my guess
20:13:33 <frosch123> all 32bpp specs up to now always claimed those 12.5 meters per tile. independent how big that number is, i doubt ottd graphics are equally scaled in all directions
20:14:03 <Jupix> well, we kinda had that discussion earlier
20:14:13 <Jupix> that part of the spec comes almost verbatim from Ben R.
20:14:20 <frosch123> i think in ottd all stuff is lower in height than in the horizontal directions
20:14:23 <Jupix> he did a lot of research when he drew big sets of 32bpp stuff
20:14:35 <frosch123> also, i see a lot of shadows in the images
20:15:04 <frosch123> shadows are very problematic for the graphics engine which ottd has and will likely keep forever
20:15:14 <andythenorth> unless you implement 3d :P
20:15:22 <frosch123> so, a higher sun with as few shadow as possible would be more healthy
20:15:42 <Jupix> hard to comment for me as I'm not a tech guy
20:16:04 <Jupix> parts like that were Ben's and Eric's specialty
20:16:21 <Jupix> I have to make do with what info I have
20:16:42 <andythenorth> just move the light higher in the rig
20:16:52 <andythenorth> shadows need to stay within the tile boundary
20:16:58 <andythenorth> does 32bpp support variable alpha?
20:17:39 <andythenorth> isn't that a performance suck?
20:17:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Rubidium: I assume I should allow my stuff and the old timetabling to coexist?
20:17:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, if there is much transparency
20:18:10 <frosch123> 32bpp is a lot slower if you enable transparency
20:18:17 * andythenorth is unconvinced by shadows
20:18:20 <Jupix> andythenorth: I'd prefer you make a thread about that change in the 32bit forum and then we implement the change in the spec together after a concensus is reached
20:18:24 <frosch123> (transparency is drawn using alpha in 32bpp)
20:18:28 <andythenorth> fuck consensus :P
20:18:35 <Mazur> andythenorth, never seen Babylon 5?
20:18:46 <Jupix> andythenorth: sadly, I'm not in a position to dictate :)
20:18:48 <andythenorth> rendered on an amiga
20:18:56 <andythenorth> by dick van dyke's company iirc
20:19:34 * andythenorth would suggest using advanced varaction 2 with the shadows as a separate layer
20:19:55 <andythenorth> if done carefuly, it's fiddly but viable
20:20:15 <andythenorth> then it's a global switch to turn them on and off
20:20:25 <andythenorth> or does 33bpp just replace 8bpp sprites direcly?
20:20:37 <andythenorth> I'm always baffled when it's discussed
20:20:56 <andythenorth> people are making 32bpp newgrfs right?
20:21:25 <Jupix> andythenorth: in a community-driven project I think rules like that have to gain respect by concensus if they're not already de facto. who's gonna respect a decision I make and document arbitrarily? it needs to be looked at and decided it's the best way, graphically and technically. only then will artists respect it, I think
20:21:51 <andythenorth> that's why community projects suck
20:21:54 <andythenorth> and they all fail
20:22:21 <andythenorth> maybe 2CC set didn't
20:22:22 <Jupix> I think there are examples to the contrary :)
20:23:10 <andythenorth> the only one I know of is 2CC set :)
20:23:22 <Jupix> 32bit graphics tars replace sprites, yes
20:23:23 <andythenorth> if you'd started making sprites 2 years ago, you'd be ~25% done?
20:23:28 <andythenorth> instead of 0% done :)
20:23:46 <andythenorth> then you'd be the clear project lead and everyone would have to listen to you, or replace you by being better :P
20:24:02 <Jupix> anyone can replace my right now by being better
20:24:39 <Jupix> also, why would I want to be clear project lead? I don't have the time or the expertise
20:24:39 <andythenorth> still 0% done though?
20:24:47 <Jupix> well, 0% is an outright lie
20:25:20 <Jupix> the same amount what would've been shipped at 25% = no finished product
20:25:43 <Jupix> your argument sounds like you will only be satisfied by 100%
20:25:49 <Jupix> which is pretty difficult to defend against
20:25:57 <Elukka> i'm not sure what you're doing but the best thing is probably to get some of it done
20:26:05 <Elukka> everyone has ideas, a small fraction has stuff in game
20:26:28 <Alberth> and worse, people change direction constantly, it seems
20:26:42 <andythenorth> Jupix: it is very irresponsible of me to keep asking you questions
20:26:46 <andythenorth> it stops you learning blender :)
20:27:06 <Jupix> tried it once. almost ripped my hair out :)
20:27:30 <Jupix> also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate
20:27:51 <andythenorth> I can't help further then
20:28:08 <andythenorth> I would ask orudge to archive the 32bpp forums though, I think they damage any chance of success
20:28:17 <andythenorth> I go in there about once a month and run away
20:28:21 <andythenorth> it's a cluster fuck of idiots
20:29:15 <Jupix> I might try to sell that as a project tagline. "clusterfuck of idiots"
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20:30:33 <Jupix> though interestingly, the drama is almost exclusively on this IRC channel. the forums are pretty enjoyable to browse and partake in. it's when I come here that I get the worse disses :D
20:31:56 <Jupix> also you might wanna pay that forum a visit briefly, because it got overhauled in the last month
20:32:07 <Jupix> same idiots still though
20:33:42 <Rhamphoryncus> Jupix: just need to get them to start breeding. He'll learn respect when he's overrun by the hordes ;)
20:34:27 <andythenorth> Jupix: I find it all kind of sad
20:34:30 <andythenorth> your doc is nice
20:34:40 <andythenorth> afaik you've started collecting sprites and such
20:34:55 <andythenorth> and you have the will to pursue this
20:35:32 <andythenorth> you can't even render a cube in sketchup or blender?
20:35:59 * andythenorth started drawing cubes
20:36:03 <andythenorth> cubes become buildings
20:37:02 <Jupix> well, I might give it another shot when the semester is over, just for the hell of it :D
20:37:07 <andythenorth> in blender or whatever (never used blender)
20:37:20 <andythenorth> add triangle = roof
20:37:28 <andythenorth> add cylinder, scale = chimney
20:37:36 <andythenorth> hit whatever the 'render' icon looks like
20:37:45 <andythenorth> post on the forum for bragging rights
20:38:29 * andythenorth is the 'just click buttons until something happens' type of person
20:38:35 <andythenorth> as some here will have suffered through
20:38:57 <Jupix> I'm more the "do it right the first time around" kind but I've been known to make mistakes on that
20:39:15 * andythenorth should not be allowed to run a nuclear power plant
20:40:11 <Elukka> <Jupix> also tried google sketchup which I believe zephyris used to some extent. didn't get past an empty slate
20:40:15 <Elukka> sketchup is pretty easy
20:40:21 <Elukka> because it actually gives a shit about user friendliness
20:40:38 <Elukka> well i guess blender tries, they probably just don't have any good UI guys
20:41:47 <Jupix> yeah that's why I tried it. heard it was intended for "every man's 3d modeler" for google earth. made sense to me so gave it a shot
20:42:06 <Jupix> it might even have improved since then
20:42:19 <Jupix> trouble is I don't think we have rendering presets for sketchup
20:42:35 <Jupix> don't even know if that's possible
20:43:13 <Jupix> it might be necessary to model in sketcup and render in blender
20:46:12 <Jupix> or, you know, just make my own preset, the time issue is currently more pressing :P
20:47:37 <Mazur> Does anyone have a colour palette with (just) the colours of the industry chain/minimap colour?
20:47:55 * Mazur is attempting to make a chain map for FIRS.
20:48:08 <Mazur> With the same colours used in OTTD.
20:48:48 <Alberth> grabbing a screenshot of the minimap legend would be the simplest perhaps
20:48:56 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2147483648/616514480
20:48:56 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 3.48326554796
20:49:23 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 2147483648/3.5
20:49:23 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 613566756.571
20:49:39 <andythenorth> Mazur: they're in a file in the repo
20:50:14 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 617923888
20:50:14 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 24D4C530
20:50:25 <Eddi|zuHause> @base 10 16 616514480
20:50:26 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 24BF43B0
20:52:03 <andythenorth> Mazur: correcting they're no longer in a file in the repo
20:52:53 <andythenorth> you can find an old nfo version
20:53:55 <andythenorth> not sure if anything's changed since the migration
20:55:53 <andythenorth> nobody believes this until it happens to them, but until you have kids you really have no idea what "I have no time means"
20:56:02 <andythenorth> unless you have sick family to care for or such
20:56:07 <andythenorth> Belugas: true or false? ^^
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20:57:36 <Belugas> and add a mom who is scared to death as soon as kiddo sneeze ;)
20:57:49 * andythenorth has a sick newborn and a sick toddler right now :P
20:57:56 <Chris_Booth[ph]> Belugas: It's mum
21:01:11 <Belugas> Thanks Chris_Booth[ph]
21:01:38 <Belugas> andythenorth, my sympathy. and my moral support too :)
21:01:45 <Chris_Booth[ph]> Unless we are American and killing the English language
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21:02:43 <andythenorth> killing the English language?
21:02:52 * andythenorth recommends Chris_Booth[ph] goes away
21:03:14 * Chris_Booth[ph] doesn't listen
21:04:28 <Chris_Booth[ph]> It's called English not Indian, American or Canadian
21:05:01 <Chris_Booth[ph]> People who borrow it should use it properly
21:05:18 <andythenorth> what about people who have it imposed upon them by colonisation?
21:05:50 <andythenorth> so Belugas' kid has a mum?
21:06:18 <Chris_Booth[ph]> Every kind has a mum
21:06:36 <andythenorth> don't kill the language
21:06:48 <Chris_Booth[ph]> That wasn't me that was my iPhone
21:06:57 <Chris_Booth[ph]> and stupid autocorrect
21:07:22 <andythenorth> can we autcorrect Chris_Booth[ph] ?
21:07:29 <andythenorth> maybe with /kick or such?
21:07:54 <Chris_Booth[ph]> That wouldn't be very nice would it andythenorth
21:08:08 <andythenorth> neither is correcting Belugas incorrectly
21:08:28 <andythenorth> title doesn't say UK English
21:08:57 <Alberth> andy: sir B is very capable of defending himself :p
21:09:20 <Chris_Booth[ph]> No it doesn't andy, but guess where English comes from?
21:10:42 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth[ph]: amongst others the Netherlands and France ;)
21:11:05 <andythenorth> some greek and latin
21:11:10 <andythenorth> quite a lot of germanic
21:11:31 <andythenorth> and some tiresome 'incorrect' borrowing of french in the 18th or 19th century
21:12:04 <andythenorth> and also some jamaican
21:19:42 * andythenorth wonders how sketchup works
21:20:20 <Alberth> red and slow? (like the stuff without 's')
21:21:52 <Belugas> [16:06] <Chris_Booth[ph]> That wasn't me that was my iPhone <-- ho.. nice... and I though you were intelligent...
21:23:47 <andythenorth> needs a fricking admin password to install
21:24:46 <supermop> so i've been actually playing the game lately
21:25:02 <andythenorth> sketchup has a crappy interface
21:26:32 <andythenorth> it's polygons and extrude
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21:31:38 <Elukka> it has its flaws and isn't very capable
21:31:51 <Elukka> i think it's the only 3D modeler that cares one bit about friendliness to new users though
21:32:18 <Elukka> the rest are all 'oh yeah this is really great if you invest three months into learning it'
21:33:38 * Alberth has only used povray, where you define everything with hard-core 3D coordinates, rotations, and translations :)
21:36:04 <Elukka> yeah that's about the very opposite of user friendly :p
21:37:25 <Alberth> depends on what you consider to be your users :p
21:37:47 <Alberth> but it'd be interesting to try another one as well to see how it works
21:39:36 <Alberth> Elukka: the problem with UI is that either it is easy, but you can't get it to do complicated things, or the UI is complicated for new users, but very powerful for advanced users
21:39:59 <Elukka> if you have good UI design it can be both easy for new users and powerful for advanced users
21:40:43 <Alberth> it means you have lots of customizations, which means no uniformity, which means difficult to grasp for new users
21:41:12 <Alberth> or you have lots of knobs and buttons where the newbie just gets lost
21:41:19 <Elukka> the most obvious way is to have a basic toolset that doesn't include 50 obscure functions
21:41:34 <Elukka> that have utterly meaningless names unless you have knowledge of them beforehand
21:42:37 <Alberth> but you do have them, so different people have different UI experiences, which are not easy to transfer between users
21:44:32 <Elukka> if you were to design an ui that you didn't even try to make accessible because oh it's impossible anyway, then i'd say you were a bad ui designer ;P
21:46:58 <Alberth> for people that understand the 50 obscure functions, it is very usable, I think.
21:47:28 <Alberth> you are perhaps not amongst that group, but that's a different issue
21:47:41 <Alberth> just like I cannot find my way in gimp.
21:48:07 <Alberth> that's not gimp's fault, it is because I don't use it enough, and I have not read the manual
21:48:35 <Elukka> don't you want new users?
21:48:35 <Elukka> a bad ui doesn't mean it's impossible to use
21:48:35 <Elukka> everything is somewhat usable
21:48:35 <Elukka> it's still a bad ui though and it's less usable and less people will use it
21:49:00 <Elukka> it is partially gimp's fault
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21:50:37 <Alberth> but there are a zillion bitmap editing programs in the "easier" market share. gimp aims for the more professional area
21:52:55 <Alberth> users that feel limited with the easier tools will eventually switch to the more powerful tools. Those users don't mind the effort to learn
21:53:13 <Alberth> since it makes them more productive
21:54:32 <Elukka> more tools does not mean the basics of the program have to be more difficult to grasp
21:54:46 <Elukka> make a "advanced tools" tickbox which adds more tools to the mix
21:56:47 <Alberth> Hmm, nasty. Finish one function only to discover you're missing three more functions :p
21:57:28 <Elukka> if you already knew how to work it you'd have advanced tools turned on from the start
21:58:12 <Elukka> if you don't, well, because the basic tools are logically and intuitively arranged and named, you'll figure the advanced ones out eventually
21:58:36 <planetmaker> 21:22 andythenorth: maybe 2CC set didn't <-- 2ccTS was not really community either. It had a strong lead by DJN and maybe earlier Purno
21:58:41 <planetmaker> thus coding and graphics
21:58:57 <planetmaker> it has and had a strong community to support it around this.
21:59:24 <planetmaker> But it basically re-inforces your statement that a project leads a strong lead of a person who actually *works* on it (code and graphics)
21:59:43 <planetmaker> And... as OpenGFX has no graphics person anymore... that's the whole reason I started to learn gimp
21:59:54 <planetmaker> That's why I actually invested the time to make the river sprites
22:00:26 <planetmaker> to beautify the factory, the food plant...
22:00:29 <planetmaker> these little things
22:00:51 <planetmaker> I'm not a great artists. But there's no-one whom this set can rely on continuously as artist. Anymore :-(
22:00:53 <Alberth> with good results, imho :)
22:01:17 <planetmaker> it's amazing how much time it eats though
22:01:39 <planetmaker> Taught me something ;-)
22:02:45 <planetmaker> And andy, Zephyris and irwe were not bad examples to look at. And andy's advice was very valuable, too
22:02:49 <Alberth> for me, the beauty is mostly that it is small, no zillion engines to chose from
22:03:39 <Alberth> planetmaker: that's why you post stuff, and that's how you learn, and get better :p
22:03:43 <planetmaker> yeah... I recently got offered sprites for early wagons.
22:04:05 <planetmaker> which is nice :-)
22:04:05 <Rhamphoryncus> Is there a hard maximum on units lower than 2**16?
22:04:31 <planetmaker> it's a const in the code
22:05:03 <planetmaker> Apropos, Alberth: We now can have GUI in 1.5x zoom
22:05:08 <Rhamphoryncus> I'm looking at math of units*(oldticks+newticks)/ticks, which means a temporary of 65 bits
22:05:14 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: thanks
22:05:41 <planetmaker> Rhamphoryncus: the 64k does not apply to ticks...
22:05:48 <planetmaker> I thought you meant vehicle count
22:06:31 <Rhamphoryncus> planetmaker: ticks are 16 bits each. Adding two gives me 17 bits. Multiplying by units (which is 16 bits) gives me 33. Doh, said 65 above, meant 33.
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22:07:25 <planetmaker> hm... I might err. There might even be 2**20 bits reserved for vehicles (as in every single wagon etc)
22:08:02 <Rhamphoryncus> Not a worry. My unit count is vehicles in the schedule, so those won't be included.
22:10:57 <Rhamphoryncus> I just need to use a uint64 on my temporary. I could do funky stuff on the ticks to reduce them to 15 bits, but that'd limit the timetable duration to just over a year (down from 2.5 years). Not a comfortable margin.
22:11:25 <Eddi|zuHause> ever heard of casting?
22:12:07 <Rhamphoryncus> Them thar thing I'll use to have a uint64 temporary? :P
22:12:24 * Belugas casts a spell of invisibililty on self
22:12:44 <Rhamphoryncus> Belugas: I attempt to disbelieve!
22:12:56 <DorpsGek> Hoo... I don't see Belugas anymore
22:17:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt 'community' sets...
22:17:27 <andythenorth> they're a bit like people who build lego sets
22:17:40 <andythenorth> it's a 'community' because they're all engaged in the same activity
22:17:48 <andythenorth> using similar set of parts
22:17:54 <andythenorth> but it's not really a project
22:18:11 <planetmaker> well... it can be a project.
22:18:24 <planetmaker> After all OpenTTD itself is also a "community project"
22:18:26 <Rhamphoryncus> Uh oh. I think I'm getting too casual with my pseudocode when I start ending lines with periods
22:18:32 <andythenorth> it's a project with a community
22:18:51 <planetmaker> And the same is true for OpenGFX, and also in a way sets like ECS, FIRS, etc
22:19:07 <planetmaker> yes, it depends on how you define "community project", I guess
22:19:27 <andythenorth> I usually see it associated with 'fail'
22:19:52 <planetmaker> but what you cannot do is outsource responsibility
22:19:57 <andythenorth> the lego analogy probably works, but I'd need to refine it :P
22:21:01 <planetmaker> someone, noone and everyone's project: someone wanted to do something, everybody wanted a say in it and nobody the responsibility to actually do and decide something
22:21:54 <Yexo> if you set up a community project as a project that should be done by a community you're bound to fail. A project done by one (or a few people) with a community behind it as support will be fine
22:23:35 <planetmaker> and that will even be better off than a one-person project
22:23:52 <planetmaker> often. As some *work* can be outsourced. But not the responsibility
22:25:05 <Yexo> eventually the responsibility can be shared between multiple people, but never over the complete community
22:25:33 <andythenorth> responsibility has to vest
22:25:46 <planetmaker> it can also be passed on
22:30:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23848 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix: Even if A == B, A can make more sense than B.
22:31:24 <andythenorth> sounds like first year philosophy lecture ^
22:31:35 <andythenorth> philosophy is probably just compsci in disguise no?
22:34:45 <andythenorth> Jupix: I rescind my advice about just getting started with Sketchup
22:35:06 * andythenorth is too lazy to persevere
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23:07:42 <cypher> Hi. Is it possible to change server settings during multiplayer? I'm thinking station spread...
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23:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> cypher: lots of settings cannot be changed, others can
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23:12:17 <cypher> Eddi|zuHause : and which one is this? When I save that game, load it on my localhost and then chage the station spread, it works (locally). When we stop the server and change the station spread, it doesn't work. Could it be done somehow?
23:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know?
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23:13:03 <cypher> Well I thought since you started answering...
23:13:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you can, obviously, upload your locally changed game to the server
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continue to next day ⏵
