IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2012-01-21
⏴ go to previous day
00:11:11 <Eddi|zuHause> electrification has mostly to do with population density
00:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the longer the track is in relation to usage, the less sense it makes to electrify it
00:56:36 <Nat_> sorry for late reply, but that's how i use it
00:56:41 <Nat_> electrify short streatches
00:56:47 <Nat_> also, Cargodest is AMAZING
00:56:54 <Nat_> it makes passinger trains worthwhile
00:57:16 <Nat_> and not sure how to expand.
01:17:50 *** kkb110_ has joined #openttd
01:20:30 <Nat_> stations can't overlap can they?
01:20:37 <Nat_> like you can't build station bridges
01:20:45 <Nat_> because that would be really handy
01:26:23 *** tokai|noir has joined #openttd
01:37:35 <Nat_> is there any plans for subways?
01:39:39 <Eddi|zuHause> lots of plans...
01:41:18 <Nat_> so the only viable way to build iner city transit is cheating then
01:46:49 <Nat_> also, no offense to the one who sugested the sweeden set, it's not very good
01:47:43 <Nat_> I mean if you are a sweedish train nerd it's probably cool, but from a game perspective it leaves a lot of niches unfilled, and puts too much detail into others
01:48:04 <Nat_> it's engines don't seem to do anything specifly well.
01:48:12 <Nat_> and it allways feels like an improvisation
01:48:26 <Nat_> I wish I could remove it without breaking my savegame
01:48:50 <Nat_> if I were to sell all my trains, could I remove the GRF without breaking anything?
02:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> answer is depends...
02:24:22 <Nat_> I assume the game would have crashed if I removed the grf with trains in existance
02:27:57 <Nat_> man cargodest might be unbalanced
02:28:41 <Nat_> Passinger routes expand exponentially with how many destinations are available, pretty soon you have a billion people waiting in the station
02:28:54 <Nat_> and it just keeps on expanding the more possible destinations there are.
02:29:58 <Nat_> which is all nice and all, but it gets kind of unrealistic when you have more passingers than frieght.
02:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why people demand "reduce passengers" patches
02:37:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also tweak cargodist to make people prefer shorter routes
02:38:36 <Nat_> Heh, I'd rather see an "Increase cargo" patch :P
02:39:06 <Nat_> Hmm, my food processing plant is accepting grain and livestock BUT is not producing anything :C
02:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> your wagons not refitted to food?
02:39:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no available destinations for food?
02:40:17 <Nat_> no i got food wagons, it's the plant is saying zero tons produced (0% transported)
02:40:23 <Nat_> and there is a destination and train for it
02:40:45 <Nat_> the train would be earning no money but it's sharing with the train that takes grain and stock to the plant
02:41:03 <Nat_> makes it longer than nessary, but it carries cargo both ways in theroy
02:41:12 <Nat_> but in practice no food is being produced
02:41:38 <Nat_> my oil refinery does that too sometimes
02:41:56 <Nat_> it says no goods produced
02:42:05 <Nat_> BUT in that case there ARE goods waiting at the station
02:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> remember that it's the _last_ month's production
02:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> so if you did not bring anything then, it'll show 0 processed
02:45:48 <Nat_> that should not matter because it's been getting constant supply for almost the whole game
02:45:57 <Nat_> there is no way this station should not be producing goods
02:46:27 <Nat_> actualy that might explain what is up with the oil refinery
02:46:41 <Nat_> the oil refinery gets supplied less often
02:46:47 <Nat_> because it relys on tankers
02:47:03 <Nat_> at the begining of the month it says zero
02:47:11 <Nat_> but after it gets supplied it says 350
03:14:27 <Nat_> because I like to turn off towns building roads so I can place them for them
03:14:45 <Nat_> but do I have to pay upkeep on these charity roads?
03:15:11 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a setting for upkeep costs
03:15:45 <Eddi|zuHause> should be called "infrastructure maintenance" or so
03:16:02 <Nat_> hmm that seems to be turned off
03:16:11 <Nat_> still not sure where my money is going
03:16:17 <Nat_> maybe my stations are just too big
03:16:43 <Nat_> which right now only carry gold
03:18:14 <Nat_> and a single load at that
03:18:19 <Nat_> which is the best airplane for cargo?
03:29:49 <Nat_> apparently they don't manufacture trains anymore in 2016
03:29:58 <Nat_> and I can't afford to replace my entire network with Monorails
03:30:21 <Nat_> or maybe just time to retire.
03:53:01 <Nat_> how do you make newgrfs?
03:58:50 <Eddi|zuHause> probably should read the NML tutorial
03:58:55 <Nat_> yeah, is there any tutorial or anything?
03:59:07 <Nat_> where can I find that turorial?
03:59:52 <Nat_> I used to make a few trains for simutrans, is open TTD the same/similar resolution?
05:10:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "Cogent shares drop 23% after Megaupload shutdown. Estimates say that about 2-3$ of Cogent's revenue came from Megaupload"
05:45:51 *** ThatRandom has joined #openttd
05:46:15 *** ThatRandom has left #openttd
05:56:20 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
06:05:56 <Afdal> Anyone know why a game would suddenly stop automatically sending any and all vehicles for maintenance?
06:07:54 <Afdal> I was playing a network game with a friend and I game is broken now
06:07:59 <Afdal> We can't fix it in singleplayer either
06:12:11 <Afdal> It seems like it fixed itself on its own just now
06:52:02 <Nat_> is it just me or do copper mines cut back production after a few months?
06:52:23 <Nat_> I can't seem to make a consistant profit off of them
07:39:55 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
08:05:52 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
08:10:24 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
08:20:27 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
08:53:01 *** Guest24086 is now known as AD
08:53:21 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
09:07:55 <xiong> In my current chillpack (cargodist) NARS game, I was feeding Coal to a nearby Lime Kiln with road vehicles. The route was subsidized, too; I was making good money there. Suddenly they are running back and forth empty.
09:09:05 <xiong> My station rating is still high and although an AI has hooked up and started to take Coal away to a distant industry, his rating is Mediocre and he's got Coal piling up.
09:09:36 <xiong> My station has no cargo waiting, none planned. I switched from Full Load to timetabled service and it made no difference.
09:14:53 <xiong> I'm wondering if this is a bug or if I'm just not playing well.
09:25:10 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
09:26:45 <xiong> V453000, Yes, you're right; I overlooked the obvious. I restructured the pickup station to handle increasing supply... and somehow the mine fell out of the catchment area.
09:27:02 <xiong> Not obvious for some time due to the large backlog.
09:27:09 <V453000> it is extremely rare to be otherwise :p
09:28:15 *** Progman has joined #openttd
09:45:13 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
09:58:50 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
09:58:50 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
10:30:05 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
10:31:15 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
10:52:39 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
10:55:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: the industry open / close date idea could probably be worked into the spec
10:55:19 <andythenorth> assuming we can implement some extra vars
10:55:42 <andythenorth> but it has easy-to-trigger edge cases, newgrf authors would need to be careful to handle them
10:55:49 <andythenorth> and scenario authors too
10:55:56 <andythenorth> there are many and various
10:57:36 <andythenorth> e.g: date dependent graphics, date checks in cb28, cb2f, date dependent production amounts
10:57:44 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
10:57:47 <andythenorth> broken chains before / after certain dates
10:57:58 <andythenorth> requirement to handle open / close explicitly
10:58:34 *** DayDreamer has left #openttd
10:59:30 <Alberth> huh? are you doing "cannot close industry X as that would break chain Y" now at all?
10:59:56 <andythenorth> can't remember how "don't close last industry" is handled by ottd
11:00:00 <Alberth> good afternoon Wolf01
11:00:05 <flaa_> Have there been any Finnish players around?
11:00:05 <andythenorth> nor what crazy code we wrote to handle closure in FIRS
11:00:31 <Alberth> flaa_: since the birth of Internet? most likely yes
11:00:48 <flaa_> I'm asking because I just started a Finland based difficult server
11:01:16 <flaa_> Which sort had been around some years ago previously
11:01:36 <Alberth> flaa_: euhm, you know the internet cables cross country borders of pretty much all countries, right? :D
11:03:07 <flaa_> What? What is this magic?
11:03:40 <Alberth> andythenorth: there is a protection against closure explicitly, but that may be useful for default industries only. I also added a priority system in the industry building to try 'missing' industry types first ('missing' as in the industry says one should exist, and there is none)
11:04:42 <flaa_> I haven't seen anyone continue on that specific idea for the server since I saw it last time
11:05:06 <flaa_> Try for yourself if you're ihterested: 91.121.91.17
11:05:43 <Alberth> The main problem with MP servers is not the number of them, it is lack of proper management
11:06:42 <Alberth> There are 197 clients, 245 IPv4 servers and 33 IPv6 servers. <-- current state of server use
11:08:57 <Alberth> so imho, that's what you need to deal with, otherwise you're just "another empty server"
11:17:46 <Alberth> wow, there is still a 0.6.2 server :)
11:18:23 <flaa> Somebody forgot their server running since years back?
11:23:28 <V453000> lol that is longer than I actually play openttd
11:24:01 <Alberth> oh, so you never played against the original AI? :)
11:25:09 <Alberth> it made such insane connections :p
11:26:01 <V453000> I did play ttd with AI
11:29:01 <andythenorth> AI did make the map more interesting
11:30:14 <V453000> just literally stupid obstacles .)
11:31:12 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
11:31:45 <Alberth> and all the large terraforming all over the place.... :)
11:32:12 * roboboy ponders going and rearanging the hard disks in his DOS pc so he can go and play some form of TTD on it
11:34:59 <andythenorth> Alberth: if scenario editor had a gui for adding open/close dates
11:35:11 <andythenorth> these could do any of:
11:35:32 <andythenorth> - modify action 0 props
11:35:56 <andythenorth> - modify action 0 props, and prevent the industry handling open cb and sending closure as cb result to production cbs
11:36:12 <andythenorth> - store new vars, which industry authors could use optionally
11:40:11 <Alberth> I don't speak NewGRF, so there is little I can add there.
11:40:11 <Alberth> Conceptually, I am not sure you want to let the SE make such decisions. It feels like too much in the sense that it may break your industry chains etc
11:42:34 <Alberth> In my view, one should start with allowing hints to the industry to close down, or to stay open to prevent cases like http://bugs.openttd.org/task/1857 (although that was in the time I was young and naive :P ).
11:43:09 <Alberth> perhaps also have a dynamic chance, so you can shift from one era to another in a better way
11:44:34 <Alberth> Functionality like opening/closing dates may be better done with parameters (but they may be too limited for this kind of things)
11:45:26 <andythenorth> parameters on the newgrf are too limited for that
11:45:39 <roboboy> can anyone recomend some free drive copying software?
11:46:26 <Alberth> I am also wondering whether it would be possible to adjust chances of industries to the map
11:47:04 <roboboy> I was hoping for a windows based sector based utility
11:47:25 <roboboy> unles you can recomend a DOS one :D
11:48:29 <flaa> What would you consider proper management of an OpenTTD server? Is it having promp availability of admins for help or something else?
11:49:36 <Alberth> I have pretty much 0 experiences, but it seems more about managing the players, kicking/banning people
11:52:19 <Alberth> in general, all things you'd like to have as a player, that does not happen by itself :p
11:53:34 <Alberth> many people want to have a goal for their game (even free time needs to have a purpose :( ), so that may be something you want to consider too
11:53:45 <V453000> I would say 1. create friendly atmosphere by banning people who disagree with friendliness, 2. being there to help people, 3. making some nice an various maps (and load them neither too often, neither too rarely), 4. play there yourself and build something interesting or big and eventually teach others how to improve
11:54:46 <Alberth> the latter is a openttdcoop style of playing :)
11:55:51 <V453000> if you have another style, why not teach that?
11:58:17 <flaa> I agree, admin participation would be important as there always seems to be those who want to harrass or ruin the game for others
11:58:30 <roboboy> hm I wonder what the best way to compile OpenTTD for DOS under Windows 7 is
11:58:53 <roboboy> my DOS machines HDD is full
11:58:59 <flaa> Aren't there binaries for Win7?
11:59:08 <flaa> or the win32 environment
11:59:36 <roboboy> yeah but I like to make sure both TTDP and OpenTTD keep their DOS compatability :)
12:00:36 <SmatZ> reminds me I wanted to compare TTDP and OTTD performance...
12:02:17 <roboboy> will it build DOS binaries on Windows though?
12:02:27 <flaa> I've experienced that setting a goal in OpenTTD is generally complicated. Only the reset year is a set endpoint for any game
12:02:40 <Rubidium> roboboy: if it builds binaries, it'll be building Windows binaries
12:03:26 <Alberth> flaa: you know about NoGo in the new releases?
12:04:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23827 /trunk/src/ (37 files in 7 dirs): -Feature [FS#4992]: [NoGo] Allow to chose the goal question window's title from a (small) set of options
12:04:03 <Rubidium> Zuu: sorry, I've just broke the tutorial ;)
12:04:35 <Alberth> but 'goal' is just one style of playing, you may want another style instead
12:05:14 <flaa> CIA-1: how does it work?
12:06:17 <Zuu> Hmm, actually a good idea now to checkout + build my own build to use the new feature and see why I can crash OpenTTD with my save game. :-)
12:09:56 <Zuu> That thread is indeed about the NoGo framework that is referenced in that commit message.
12:09:59 <Alberth> flaa: it reports a change in source code
12:10:51 <roboboy> hm, need to do it in dosbox
12:17:03 *** Eddi|zuHause2 has joined #openttd
12:17:32 <Rubidium> roboboy: totally untested though ;)
12:18:05 <roboboy> I don't care that it's untested.
12:19:52 *** Chris_Booth[ph] has joined #openttd
12:20:39 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
12:20:50 <roboboy> I shall try it once I have djgpp set up under dosbox
12:38:12 *** kais58_ is now known as kais58
12:38:17 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
12:41:22 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
12:43:25 <Zuu> IS there anything strange with "STR_INTRO_2 :Chapters:{}{}1. Airplanes{}2. Ships{}3. Road Vehicles{}4. Trains
12:43:25 <Zuu> " ? OpenTTD crashes on this string when loading the savegame attached to the GS tutorial thread.
12:44:38 <Hirundo> No GS should ever make ottd crash
12:45:41 <Zuu> I know, and will make a proper bug report. I was just interested to test with the debuger to see what it crashes on.
12:46:50 <planetmaker> Zuu, all strings I saw in the tutorial are perfectly normal strings
12:47:45 *** Chris_Booth[ph]_ has joined #openttd
12:48:13 <frosch123> hmm, need to step higher.. it crashed on saving the crash sav :p
12:49:02 <frosch123> it strdups a NULL string in Load_GSTR
12:50:33 <Zuu> Now the bug exist at FS as FS#4996
12:50:45 <frosch123> do you have some empty string?
12:50:57 <Zuu> The file contains empty rows
12:51:11 *** Zeknurn has joined #openttd
12:52:17 <Zuu> To give some separation. But that is also used in english.txt of OpenTTD.
12:52:27 <Zuu> The row after STR_INTRO_2 is an empty row.
12:53:38 <Zuu> I can additionally add that in the script version that saved that savegame there existed an instance where the script passed a string parameter that was never used by english.txt.
12:54:25 <frosch123> no i meant some STR_blabla:
12:55:03 *** Chris_Booth[ph] has quit IRC
12:55:31 *** Chris_Booth[ph]_ is now known as Chris_Booth[ph]
12:55:59 <frosch123> i.e. nothing after the :
12:58:47 <Rubidium> it doesn't look like language file has those empty strings
12:59:33 <frosch123> the saveload code returns an empty string as NULL
12:59:52 <frosch123> but the later processing of langfiles cannot handle NULL either, thus I added strdup("")
13:00:13 <Rubidium> it needs a != NULL for coding style
13:00:49 <frosch123> i wonder whether it is worth to also fix the other code, so it can actually deal with NULL
13:01:05 <frosch123> or whether that would only make stuff inconsistent and complicated
13:01:08 <Rubidium> there shouldn't be NULL strings
13:01:13 <Zuu> No, the english.txt of the tutorial doesn't contain any empty strings as in nothing after the colon.
13:01:59 <frosch123> hmm, i have already 4 supoerlibs installed, and bananas suggests me a fifth :p
13:02:22 <frosch123> but i still do not have the util.superlib which that save needs
13:02:40 <Zuu> hehe, if Microsoft thinks GPL is a cancer, then I wonder what they would think about superlib :-p
13:03:12 <frosch123> where do i find the required util.superlib?
13:03:28 <Zuu> in main.nut of the gamescript/ais in use.
13:04:20 <frosch123> i mean i have all superlibs installed i could find, but it still fails to load that tutorial save
13:04:30 <Zuu> It turns out that Tutorial uses version 18 of "SuperLib for Nogo"
13:04:41 <Zuu> You can probably change it to 19 without any problem.
13:05:03 <Rubidium> I see no reasons why NULL would be returned though
13:05:09 <Zuu> 19 is the one that you can get from bananas I think.
13:05:21 <frosch123> Rubidium: saveload.cpp:1088
13:05:25 <Zuu> (without having a script that depends on it that isu
13:06:06 <frosch123> yeah, i have 19.1 :)
13:07:25 <Rubidium> frosch123: oh... doh...
13:07:29 <Zuu> I think 19.1 is what it says on bananas, but else where it says just 19.
13:07:30 <frosch123> Rubidium: though i wonder how that works with the later ((char *)ptr)[len] = '\0';
13:08:02 <Zuu> The reason is that I picked the wrong license in bananas. The only other change is an extra space in a comment somewhere.
13:09:01 <frosch123> i think that line should even access (*ptr)[len]
13:09:38 <frosch123> actually, i cannot tell from that function whether ptr is (char*) or (char**) :/
13:10:03 <Rubidium> frosch123: line 1091 ;)
13:10:17 <frosch123> yeah, but that is missing from the other case
13:10:32 <frosch123> so, it worky by luck :p
13:10:50 <Rubidium> well, when setting it to NULL, it should just return I guess
13:10:57 <Rubidium> the rest is validation
13:11:56 *** TWerkhoven[l] has joined #openttd
13:13:16 <frosch123> hmm, so, is there an easy way to store the required ais, gses and libraries in the save, so i can get them from bananas?
13:13:39 <frosch123> it is kind of stupid if the save requires superlib 18, but there is no way to get it :p
13:13:53 <Rubidium> yup, just store their ID and HASH
13:14:04 <Rubidium> of the AIs/game scripts
13:14:18 <Rubidium> then bananas will do the rest (i.e. select the dependencies)
13:16:33 <Rubidium> yup, though you could move the ternary operator to the strdup parameter
13:18:39 <Zuu> Rubidium: The problem here is that the GS Tutorial is not on bananas (yet), but it uses SuperLib 18. This requirement is not stored in the save game. With frosch123 proposal I think in this particular case OpenTTD would be able to get superlib18 for him.
13:20:16 <Rubidium> that smells like a lot of work for a small thing
13:20:46 <Rubidium> that'd not even work when you'd use superlib 20 which you hasn't been put on bananas yet
13:21:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23828 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Fix: Return early from SlString() for empty strings, before doing invalid things which surprisingly do not break everything.
13:21:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r23829 /trunk/src/saveload/game_sl.cpp: -Fix [FS#4996]: Loading empty GS strings/translations failed.
13:25:58 <Rubidium> it's actually empty lines in the translation file ;)
13:26:19 <roboboy> hmm my DOS disk is full and I can't fit the newOpenTTD files. Will try it once I migrate to a larger disk
13:26:23 <frosch123> really? then that should be fixed as well :)
13:27:13 <Rubidium> frosch123: translation files are the files in lang/* in this case
13:27:35 <Rubidium> after all, we're storing the unencoded version in the savegame and encoding that upon loading
13:28:10 <frosch123> well, is it about "STR_BLABLA:" or about completely empty liens?
13:28:21 <Zuu> There are completely empty lines
13:28:25 <Zuu> and a line with a comment
13:28:27 <Rubidium> completely empty lines
13:28:36 <frosch123> those should not be stored, should they?
13:28:53 <Zuu> Why would you store them?
13:29:08 <Rubidium> so the warning/errors give the right line number?
13:30:35 <frosch123> are there errors which do not require the gs to be present?
13:30:56 <frosch123> or are the lang files only read when starting a new game?
13:32:42 <Zuu> There is also an open question that relates to the string system. How to make it possible to upgrade the GS in a running game from one version to another. As with AIs. TrueBrain told me that there is an issue with how to deal with strings/translations in that case.
13:33:25 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
13:33:48 <Zuu> An alternative to allow upgarding is to only allow savegames/scenarios without any GS to load a GS after they have been created.
13:34:16 <Zuu> If none of these are allowed, making a GS for a specific scenario becomes very hard to maintain with future releases.
13:35:54 *** TGYoshi has joined #openttd
13:38:15 <Zuu> For AIs there is AIInfo::MinVersionToLoad() which is a way for AIs to tell the minimum version of the AI themself that it can accept when loading old save games. Thus there is a way for AIs to mark a new version inable to load (too) old saves. So if the first approach is used, a similar fuction can give enough control for GS authors to stop a scenario+GS combo to load a new GS version on an old scenario.
13:40:34 *** Dozzer_X has joined #openttd
13:41:14 <Dozzer_X> Is there any beta 32bit version?
13:41:57 *** Chris_Booth[ph]_ has joined #openttd
13:42:00 <Zuu> Could you be a bit more specific about what you are looking for?
13:42:41 <Zuu> Plain OpenTTD can since long load 32bit graphics.
13:43:05 <Dozzer_X> But how to install the 32bit graphics?
13:43:18 <Dozzer_X> For what I've found on the wiki, there are loads of files...
13:43:50 *** Chris_Booth[ph]_ has quit IRC
13:44:02 <Zuu> I never tried to load the 32bit graphics myself.
13:49:28 *** Chris_Booth[ph] has quit IRC
13:50:58 <roboboy> hm I wonder if 32Bpp works under DOS. May test when I move to a larger HDD
13:51:36 <frosch123> do you have libpng for dos?
13:51:59 <Dozzer_X> But is there any full pack of 32pp graphics?
13:52:24 <roboboy> I didn't compile it. Can I find out if it was built with it?
13:53:02 <roboboy> without asking the person that compiled it.
13:53:17 <Rubidium> you could use e.g. strings to see the strings in the binary
13:53:22 <frosch123> can you do png screenshots?
13:53:51 <Rubidium> if there's lot a png functions, and even the version number in it then it's probably compiled with png support
13:54:16 <roboboy> i'm pretty sure I can take png screenies
13:57:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r23830 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp): -Revert (r23804) [FS#4986]: while the idea was good, it causes too much trouble
13:58:10 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
13:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> @openttd commit 23804
13:58:19 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by yexo :: r23804 /trunk/src (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp) (2012-01-15 13:17:02 UTC)
13:58:20 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Fix: [NewGRF] Make string code 80 more secure by not crashing when it's used in strings where it's not supposed to be used
13:59:02 <Yexo> that string code is abused in too many places, which I currently can't be bothered to track down and fix
14:20:45 *** lollercaust has joined #openttd
14:28:55 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23831 /trunk/ (5 files in 4 dirs): -Prepare: 1.2.0-beta3
14:29:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23832 /trunk/src/lang/ (7 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
14:29:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
14:29:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: belarusian - 7 changes by Wowanxm
14:29:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
14:29:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 49 changes by Flexo
14:29:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 7 changes by Jogio, planetmaker
14:29:24 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: spanish - 3 changes by Terkhen
14:30:11 *** Rhamphoryncus has joined #openttd
14:35:48 <flaa> Any idea what setting I have misconfigured? My map has too many cities although I have custom_town_number at 1 and the diff_custom setting on 0
14:36:58 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23833 /tags/1.2.0-beta3/: -Release: 1.2.0-beta3
14:39:44 <SmatZ> flaa: set numbet_towns 4
14:45:25 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
14:48:56 <flaa> I just realized diff_custom is completely deprecated
14:49:39 <flaa> SmatZ: That's exactly what I was looking for, thank you!
15:03:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we have 76 warnings for the german vehicles left
15:04:06 <Eddi|zuHause> and a bunch more for the non-german ones
15:23:44 <Eddi|zuHause> random thought: if the pathfinder goes through a depot, don't consider signal states and path reservations afterwards
15:26:25 *** Cybertinus has joined #openttd
15:33:32 *** sla_ro|master has joined #openttd
15:37:17 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
15:37:17 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
15:44:39 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
16:11:24 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
16:12:01 <Rhamphoryncus> Thought on timetabling: game tracks the average time between stops and presents it to the user as a minimum time, in day:hour:minute format, one time for each stop. User bumps it up a little to have a fudge factor and to make it look pretty. User also has an overall-fudge so the schedule syncs from day to day. Each station departs at that time, or has up to one pending departure, but if they're consistently behind they'll skip
16:12:01 <Rhamphoryncus> having a pending departure (to get back on schedule).
16:15:37 <frosch123> why do you timetable travels at all?
16:16:19 <Rhamphoryncus> Controlling in day:hour:minute would be fun, but the core goal is to space out the vehicles
16:17:02 <frosch123> imo timetabling loading times is enough for spacing vehicles
16:17:30 <Rhamphoryncus> really? I don't think I've tried that
16:17:59 <frosch123> if the clump up, the vehicles will block the other vehicles from entering the stations
16:18:40 <frosch123> usually the problem is only that vehicles which follow afterwards leave the station immediately since there is no cargo. but that is solved timetabling the loading time
16:19:09 <Rhamphoryncus> Is there a trick to it? Do you pick a duration of route time/vehicle count?
16:19:52 <frosch123> depends on how long the vehicles will take to load. i.e. their capacity and the production
16:20:37 <frosch123> for bus stops i usually use 2 to 5 days at stations with few cargo, and none at stations which are not emptied by a bus anyway
16:21:20 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
16:23:29 <andythenorth> what can we argue about then agree not to fix today?
16:24:35 <Rhamphoryncus> andythenorth: vehicle overtaking
16:28:31 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
16:33:40 <Rhamphoryncus> cargo waiting in station label
16:34:13 <andythenorth> road vehicles do overtake
16:34:17 <andythenorth> where's the problem? :)
16:36:03 <frosch123> yeah, default rv overtake. rest must be bugs of the newgrfs
16:36:51 <frosch123> or ask for a newgrf which implements overtaking?
16:39:33 <andythenorth> newgrf solves all ills
16:39:48 <andythenorth> I think Eddi|zuHause said every road tile should be a state machine?
16:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> well, every road tile is already a state machine, just it's not customizable
16:41:53 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
16:49:57 <andythenorth> nostalgia again :P
16:58:36 <Zuu> What is best "Tutorial" or "Game Tutorial" as the name of the game tutorial?
16:58:46 * Zuu is going to upload it to bananas now
16:59:21 <frosch123> i would rather choose something like "Beginner Tutorial"
16:59:37 <V453000> definitely not "SEE THIS NOOB" :p
16:59:37 <frosch123> or Gameplay Tutorial
16:59:50 <Zuu> frosch123: both good suggestions
17:01:03 <Zuu> I tihkn that I like "Beginner Tutorial" a bit more.
17:01:34 <frosch123> depends on what you want to add in the future :)
17:01:39 *** supermop has joined #openttd
17:02:55 <Zuu> I fancy that advanced rail tutorials is better to keep in a separate tutorial.
17:03:22 <Zuu> The tutorial framework than I've worked on can easily be split out into a library then. :-)
17:03:56 <Zuu> Or the author of that other tutorial have his/her own idea on how to organize the code.
17:05:12 <planetmaker> depends on what you call "advanced" wrt rail, I think
17:05:48 <planetmaker> Beginner Tutorial is a good name
17:11:59 <andythenorth> I can tell nml to search for strings in a different file?
17:12:36 <andythenorth> but can I tell it to not look for .lang files, but instead use strings inline?
17:12:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you need that for?
17:13:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, strings must come from the .lng file
17:13:12 <andythenorth> I could patch nml?
17:13:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not a missing feature, it's a deliberate design decision
17:14:06 <andythenorth> I want to be able to use a single copy-paste from web cms to a file in BANDIT
17:14:26 <andythenorth> separate lang file means 2 copy-pastes
17:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> why not have your web-cms autogenerate the lang file then?
17:17:54 <Zuu> planetmaker: I've now uploaded it as "Beginner Tutorial" and also uploaded a hidden scenario (max r1) with the same name to claim the same name for when we get a dedicated scenario for the tutorial.
17:18:01 <andythenorth> but means I have to copy paste twice
17:18:17 <andythenorth> I could have the makefile curl, but that is a horrible dependency
17:18:27 <andythenorth> and moot, because I have no idea how to do that either
17:18:52 <planetmaker> very nice, Zuu :-)
17:19:04 <Zuu> Actually, I could make the scenario already and set it up with bananas and flags as I want, only that I would have to make a new scenario for each release. :-(
17:19:13 <andythenorth> my aim is to get the strings into the same file as all the vehicle defines
17:19:21 <planetmaker> a new scenario for each release?
17:19:31 <andythenorth> I can't CPP them in afaik, because lang file is processed before vehicle include
17:19:35 <planetmaker> as it's saved with the script?
17:19:38 <Zuu> because the scenario link to a specific GS version.
17:19:52 <planetmaker> it clearly needs a developer setting ;-)
17:19:55 <Zuu> and there is no way to postpone this linking to just before release or update that link.
17:20:15 <Zuu> I have made some feature requests on FS for that :-)
17:20:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can preprocess the lang file
17:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CETS creates the lang file from a fixed part and an autogenerated part
17:21:33 <andythenorth> maybe I should try that
17:21:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i should extend that to actually handle translations some time
17:21:56 <andythenorth> can't see how to add arbitrary number of vehicle names that way?
17:22:57 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
17:23:14 <andythenorth> which copy-pastes into a file in sprites/nml
17:23:23 <andythenorth> dunno how I use that to also generate lang
17:23:53 <andythenorth> patching nml to just use strings directly seemed plausible
17:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> trust me, it's not
17:25:22 <andythenorth> I didn't try that either yet :P
17:26:11 <andythenorth> maybe I could just do
17:26:18 <andythenorth> #define FOO_STRING str_name_veh_hackler_A :Hackler A
17:27:45 <andythenorth> but I'd still need to search in a lang file
17:28:10 <andythenorth> can I define vehicles in a lang file?
17:29:23 *** brendan10211 has joined #openttd
17:31:03 <andythenorth> what's the case for separate lang files?
17:31:14 * andythenorth assumes it's not just an arbitrary restriction
17:31:51 <frosch123> translators and coders are not the same
17:31:52 <andythenorth> so with nfo that was optional
17:32:01 <frosch123> translations could be fed to wt3 as well
17:32:57 * andythenorth is once again stuck with BANDIT
17:33:01 <andythenorth> thought I'd solved it :P
17:33:56 <Eddi|zuHause> just make your web-cms generate the whole lang file over all vehicles
17:34:02 <Eddi|zuHause> and live with the second copying
17:35:58 <andythenorth> and the rest of it *so* elegant :P
17:36:04 <andythenorth> as long as you don't look too much
17:37:10 <andythenorth> can a shell script split a file on a known delimiter, and write a new file?
17:37:30 <frosch123> add "#ifdef LANG == english\nSTR_BLA:boo\n#elif lang == hungarian\nSTR_BLA:doo\n#else\ncode#endif"
17:37:42 <SpComb> andythenorth: shell scripts can do anything!
17:38:40 <frosch123> depends on the shell :p
17:39:07 * andythenorth remembers he knows a small bit of python
17:39:24 <andythenorth> can the makefile call a python script?
17:39:29 <andythenorth> can a python script write a file?
17:39:36 <andythenorth> does it have permissions and such?
17:39:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's how my generator works
17:39:55 <Alberth> if you give it enough rights, yes :)
17:40:11 <andythenorth> this might be sovled with three lines of python
17:40:21 <andythenorth> if I change the makefile, do I have to maintain it myself?
17:40:24 <SpComb> cat $input | cut -d '$delim' --output-delimiter=' ' -f 1- | while read a b c d; do ...; done
17:41:59 <frosch123> hmm, who was the guy in this channel flaming about usage of "cat bla | "
17:43:14 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the CETS custom stuff is in scripts/Makefile.in
17:43:14 <andythenorth> 4 lines of python maybe
17:43:38 <Eddi|zuHause> which, as far as i understand, is independent from the rest
17:45:19 <Eddi|zuHause> there's some magic about dependencies which i didn't update in a while
17:51:09 * andythenorth has been writing code for >10 years, but has never written code that writes to a file :o
17:51:15 <andythenorth> always been scared of it
17:52:16 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
17:56:14 <Alberth> python mycode.py > myfile :)
18:06:29 <andythenorth> all my code has been written for places where you just don't have the right to write :)
18:09:15 <Alberth> normally you explicitly state where you want the output to go to, you don't just write in the current directory. That way you can put the python code anywhere, and execute the program from anywhere
18:12:10 <andythenorth> in a newgrf you won't know the absolute path?
18:12:20 <andythenorth> it's whatever someone's repo location is
18:12:44 <andythenorth> do I need to read some environment vars, or use relative paths? or which? :)
18:15:06 <Alberth> relative paths are the easiest
18:15:43 <Alberth> the someone can easily wrap it in a script :p
18:16:07 <andythenorth> in this case, the someone will be me :P
18:16:11 <andythenorth> modifying the makefile
18:16:29 <Alberth> Makefile is also a script ;)
18:17:32 <Rubidium> Zuu: for the tutorial you might want to check certain settings. For example, when adding orders my current settings don't automatically select "go to" so when following the manual methodically I'm just getting the airport view instead of the order
18:18:15 <nat_as> why can't I ever make a profit moving copper?
18:18:40 <nat_as> as soon as I get a line running, the production seems to slow to a trickle
18:19:26 *** TomyLobo2 has joined #openttd
18:19:39 <Zuu> Rubidium: That setting is actually on my list already.
18:20:00 <Zuu> But for some reason I decided not to implement it yet.
18:20:26 <Rubidium> Zuu: also make sure to mention not to click on the hangar when assigning orders ;)
18:21:09 <Rubidium> later on it mentions the hangar when looking at the cargo of the airport
18:22:01 <Zuu> It used the worng word for the wrong thing at several places which I have fixed, but it has probably some left stil.
18:22:53 *** plhalaser has joined #openttd
18:23:29 <planetmaker> what's your question?
18:23:41 <plhalaser> can someone help me with
18:23:47 <plhalaser> Makefile:234: recipe for target `ai/ai_gui.o' failed
18:23:49 <plhalaser> make[1]: *** [ai/ai_gui.o] Error 1
18:23:49 <plhalaser> make[1]: Leaving directory `/cygdrive/c/ottd/objs/release'
18:23:51 <plhalaser> Makefile:57: recipe for target `all' failed
18:23:51 <plhalaser> make: *** [all] Error 1
18:23:58 <Alberth> nat_as: always have a train loading
18:24:20 <nat_as> and don't let it leave untill it's full?
18:24:37 <plhalaser> -/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/tcp_http.h:42: note: Net -workHTTPSocketHandler::NetworkHTTPSocketHandler(const NetworkHTTPSocketHandler&)
18:24:37 <plhalaser> -/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h: At global scope:
18:24:37 <plhalaser> -/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h:287: warning: 'SetNonBl -ocking' defined but not used
18:24:39 <plhalaser> -/cygdrive/c/ottd/src/ai/../network/core/os_abstraction.h:306: warning: 'SetNoDel -ay' defined but not used
18:24:39 <plhalaser> Makefile:234: recipe for target `ai/ai_gui.o' failed
18:24:41 <plhalaser> make[1]: *** [ai/ai_gui.o] Error 1
18:24:41 <plhalaser> make[1]: Leaving directory `/cygdrive/c/ottd/objs/release'
18:24:43 <plhalaser> Makefile:57: recipe for target `all' failed
18:24:43 <plhalaser> make: *** [all] Error 1
18:25:04 <__ln__> plhalaser: ever heard of a pastebin?
18:25:05 <planetmaker> plhalaser: don't use this channel for pasting stuff. Use a paste service
18:25:05 <nat_as> my problem is when I connect the copper mine it's production is great and I build a big huge train to haul it in
18:25:08 <Alberth> nat_as: yes, and use shorter trains if you don't have a lot of output from the mine
18:25:18 *** TomyLobo2 is now known as TomyLobo
18:25:21 <nat_as> then production drops off and my huge train is a waste of money
18:25:30 <plhalaser> im first time on IRC
18:25:57 <planetmaker> paste the text on something like paste.openttdcoop.org
18:26:05 <planetmaker> it's much better readable. And give us the link
18:26:06 <Rubidium> has anybody even tested cygwin recently?
18:26:43 <Alberth> nat_as: start with shorter trains, I normally have at least 2, so there is always one loading
18:26:44 <Rubidium> but I'm only seeing warnings, not the reason why it'd fail
18:26:45 <nat_as> another less serious problem is my feeders don't seem to run a transfer credit profit, but the main line still makes enough money for both of them, when it's actualy getting filled up that is.
18:27:33 <Alberth> nat_as: something slow at the end of the feeder chain?
18:27:50 <nat_as> maybe I should use trucks instead.
18:27:58 <Alberth> plhalaser: much better, thank you :)
18:28:11 <nat_as> short and up hill, but it only goes uphill empty.
18:28:39 <nat_as> they should invent gravity power trains
18:29:02 <nat_as> cars going uphill empty get pulled by the cars going downhill full.
18:29:08 <nat_as> all connected by cables.
18:29:24 <nat_as> free energy as long as you have something to load the cars with.
18:29:25 <Alberth> nat_as: the intermediate steps are just rough estimates, the final destination is the 'real' payment - the already estimated payments.
18:29:25 <Alberth> if the estimates were too large, you get a negative payment at the end
18:30:08 <nat_as> transfer is just so the feeders don't bug you with "Negative income" every year?
18:30:26 <Rubidium> plhalaser: I fear OpenTTD simply doesn't compile with cygwin anymore
18:30:35 <nat_as> then why is the feeder not giving me any profit if the main line is earning enough to pay for the feeder and itself?
18:30:46 <Rubidium> as far as I'm aware barely anyone uses it, especially under the developers
18:30:59 <Alberth> transfer means 'this cargo will be transfered further'
18:31:31 <Alberth> it is not paid for until you deliver it by unloading (without transfer)
18:31:44 <Alberth> see also the feeder systems wiki pages
18:31:47 <plhalaser> oo, what i can use instead cygwin?
18:32:14 <Rubidium> mingw or Microsoft's Visual C++ (Express)
18:32:29 <Alberth> install Linux, and use gcc :p
18:32:38 <plhalaser> oki i try mingw thx for now ;)
18:33:01 <Rubidium> there's a manual at the wiki telling you what to do exactly
18:33:08 <plhalaser> nono i seen linux 1 time and im happy for windows
18:33:29 <planetmaker> Alberth: with mingw he uses gcc, too ;-)
18:33:34 <planetmaker> as he'd do with cygwin :-P
18:33:40 <Rubidium> plhalaser: then why are you using cygwin? ;)
18:34:11 <Rubidium> "Cygwin is a collection of tools which provide a Linux look and feel environment for Windows"
18:34:13 <plhalaser> i found manual with pictures step by step xDD
18:35:09 <Rubidium> then use Microsoft's Visual C++. That's the least linux-y way of compiling OpenTTD on Windows
18:35:28 <Rubidium> although then I'm wondering what you're trying to compile
18:35:49 <Zuu> If you get the TortoriseSVN or how it is spelled, you will not even have to use a terminal.
18:36:20 <Rubidium> Zuu: lose the second r
18:36:27 <plhalaser> beta with daylenght, singlals in tunels and new airports
18:36:56 <Rubidium> so you're patching yourself as well?
18:37:08 <Zuu> That said, I have stoped used TortoiseSVN in favor for command line tools.
18:37:30 <Alberth> plhalaser: first try to compile without patching to check the compiler setup
18:38:23 <plhalaser> it was in manual, and i try it first time 4 year ago and it works, and i think -that was bad idea- its would be same xDD
18:38:26 <Alberth> why do you use beta for that? you might as well use trunk
18:38:31 <planetmaker> plhalaser: then... did you try cygwin with unpatched source?
18:39:30 <Alberth> plhalaser: people are impatient ;)
18:39:32 <planetmaker> Well. Try with unpatched source. Though I fear the patches won't break where your compilation seems broken
18:39:39 <Zuu> You'll certainly need to update some of the libraries then.
18:40:09 <Alberth> or install some; the ./configure output may also give clues what are missing
18:40:11 <nat_as> how come copper mines are so varriable in there production?
18:40:20 <nat_as> when lumbermills are so steady?
18:40:21 <plhalaser> no, i install cygwin today
18:40:59 <plhalaser> i go try microsoft visual c++
18:41:04 <nat_as> and lumber mills just make wood for each tree they cut?
18:41:10 <nat_as> so they aren't random?
18:41:17 *** plhalaser has left #openttd
18:42:13 <frosch123> lumber mill have constant production until trees run out
18:42:14 <Alberth> nat_as: until they run out of trees :p but it depends on the climate
18:42:29 <nat_as> but you can just PLANT MORE TREES!
18:42:36 <nat_as> which also makes towns HAPPY
18:42:44 <nat_as> lumber mills are the best deal ever.
18:43:12 <Zuu> Hmm, sounds like a nice GS -> auto planting of trees for lumber mills.
18:43:20 <Alberth> it is far easier to not upset towns :p
18:43:25 <nat_as> automaticly remove tress so you can replant them
18:43:34 <nat_as> not if you want to ever deliver cargo to them
18:43:44 <Alberth> Zuu: weird goals you have :)
18:44:01 <Zuu> well, not really a goal, more of a utility script.
18:44:03 <nat_as> or maybe I just have a hard time because my favorite map is filled with jungle.
18:44:23 <nat_as> it's hard to connect towns without cutting down a lot of trees
18:44:32 <nat_as> and then there is little room to plant more trees
18:45:09 <Zuu> Build stations before other infrastructure.
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r23834 /trunk/src/lang/serbian.txt:
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: serbian - 3 changes by etran
18:45:26 <Zuu> And if they get angry, cut down all forest round the town and build it up again.
18:47:03 <frosch123> do you have heard of ufos burning circles into forests?
18:48:26 <Alberth> I only heard about circles in cropfields
18:53:58 <planetmaker> nat_as: always build the station(s) first. Then the infrastructure around
18:54:07 <planetmaker> that helps a lot ;-)
18:54:24 *** plhalaser has joined #openttd
18:55:53 <plhalaser> hi i back for a while, ive been trying clean beta version and last nightly, ant was same error
18:56:04 <nat_as> and makes it anoying when I want to trim there roads, or make expansions.
18:56:06 <Alberth> nat_as: provide good service to your stations and be patient :)
18:56:56 *** TWerkhoven has joined #openttd
18:59:00 <Alberth> it looks like you are missing network header files
18:59:48 <Alberth> ie SOCKET looks like something that your compiler should have
19:00:24 <Alberth> does the configure give messages that it is missing stuff?
19:01:01 <nat_as> man, why is cargodest not in core?
19:01:15 <nat_as> it's the best thing to happen to TT since TTD
19:01:36 <Alberth> solution is not good enough
19:02:02 <andythenorth> none of the three solutions are good enough :(
19:02:16 <nat_as> well I think Simutrans' system is overcomplex,
19:02:25 <plhalaser> WARNING: lzma was not detected or disabled that was on configure, ive try install everything with lzma in name but still it do
19:02:30 <nat_as> and makes it really hard when moving cargo
19:02:47 <nat_as> because the industries stop producing when the destination has enough cargo
19:03:15 <nat_as> really all that's nessary is to make passengers move from station to station.
19:03:56 <nat_as> cargodest should at least be in core as an option.
19:04:35 <planetmaker> plhalaser: yes, it's a highly recommended library
19:04:53 <planetmaker> might be called something with xz ?
19:06:50 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
19:06:58 <andythenorth> python .format() could be used for templating
19:07:15 <andythenorth> as no doubt could many other things :P
19:08:46 <plhalaser> i try install all libs
19:09:20 * andythenorth just wrote his first file programatically
19:09:24 <andythenorth> I hope you're all proud
19:11:28 * Alberth is very proud of andy
19:12:29 <andythenorth> I was trying to figure out if I could write a $ parser myself
19:12:36 <andythenorth> never thought to check if the language had one :P
19:13:25 <andythenorth> possibly I could abandon the web cms
19:13:28 <andythenorth> but where's the fun?
19:14:12 *** Hellow|2 has joined #openttd
19:16:40 <nat_as> man, I was skimming through grf tutorials last night, damn that's complicated.
19:17:03 <nat_as> but then aggain when I made trains for simutrans I just made the sprites and somebody else did the code for me :V
19:17:35 <frosch123> nml or nfo tutorials?
19:23:02 <planetmaker> nat_as: depends on how complicated you want your vehicles
19:23:20 <planetmaker> it can be done quite easy. Just a few sprites. And attached to a vehicle with its properties
19:23:30 <planetmaker> Not frills like different cargos and stuff
19:24:01 <plhalaser> have any of you experience with Earth 2140?
19:24:46 <frosch123> no, i am still stuck in 2012
19:24:50 *** glevans2 has joined #openttd
19:27:26 <andythenorth> will this be valid lang file for nml? it has spurious newlines
19:29:39 *** peteris has joined #openttd
19:29:46 <andythenorth> python appears to ignore them anyway so meh
19:30:00 *** peteris is now known as pecisk_latvia
19:34:32 <andythenorth> how to merge lang :P
19:49:04 <Alberth> print adds a newline itself, so do a line.rstrip() after reading the line from a file :p
19:49:54 <Alberth> (20:17:16) andythenorth: never thought to check if the language had one :P <-- a common problem with Python, they have all the nice bits you want to write already in a library :(
19:55:09 <Alberth> plhalaser: I do calculations for climateprediction.net, but never looked at the results
19:58:32 *** Progman has joined #openttd
20:00:35 <valhallasw> Alberth: still no collation support though :(
20:01:08 <valhallasw> and still no reasonable way to use py2 libs from py3 :p
20:02:02 <Alberth> py2 libs are never going to be compatible with py3, they all have to be checked and upgraded manually
20:02:56 <valhallasw> which is batshit crazy
20:03:06 <valhallasw> I can run LabVIEW code from python
20:03:07 <Alberth> no idea what "collation support" means, it looks like a data-base thingie
20:03:14 <valhallasw> why can't I run python code from python?
20:03:22 <valhallasw> collation support = how to sort characters
20:03:45 <valhallasw> python can only sort using the unicode character number
20:03:53 <Alberth> valhallasw: python3 is not supposed to be compatible
20:04:12 <valhallasw> Alberth: LabVIEW is also not 'supposed to be compatible'
20:04:23 <valhallasw> the python3 interpreter cannot load python2 code, that makes sense
20:04:24 <Alberth> they are throwing obsolete stuff out and did a lot of re-engeinnering
20:04:44 <valhallasw> but it makes absolutely no sense it's impossible to run the python2 code *using the python2 libraries* from python3
20:04:50 <Alberth> valhallasw: 2->3 is the first time in 15+ years that they do this
20:05:01 <planetmaker> biggest issue for me to upgrade to py3 is pil
20:05:11 <planetmaker> python without PIL is... meh.
20:05:16 <valhallasw> Alberth: I know. You're missing the point.
20:05:31 <andythenorth> (a) PIL is a pain in the ass
20:05:42 <andythenorth> (b) why didn't I learn python read / write files years ago :P
20:05:50 <andythenorth> could have saved a lot of trouble
20:05:52 <valhallasw> You can compile a C library using <random c compiler> and use the compiled library from c++ code, compiled with <different compiler>
20:06:07 <Alberth> andy: you skipped the wrong chapter of the tutorial?
20:06:20 <valhallasw> Why can't the python2 lib be interpreted by python 2, but used by python3 code?
20:06:40 <Alberth> valhallasw: haha, you cannot even compile old C++ with a c++ compiler :D
20:07:06 <valhallasw> Alberth: but you can install the old compiler, compile it with that one
20:07:11 <valhallasw> and still use the library
20:07:39 <Alberth> valhallasw: right, please find any open source software aged > 10 years :)
20:07:54 <valhallasw> how is that relevant?
20:08:04 <Alberth> valhallasw: as you can install and run python 2 interpreter :)
20:08:26 <valhallasw> but I can use the library I compiled with the *old* compiler from code I compile with a recent compiler
20:09:00 <Alberth> you link against the common c/c++ library, which also moves in time
20:10:25 <valhallasw> hm. not sure about that
20:10:40 <Alberth> I think it is brave they dare breaking compability with python 3, it gives a lot of room for them to clean out the old cruft
20:11:00 <valhallasw> with a changed libc, you have the same problem as with python, anyway
20:11:08 <valhallasw> duplicate function names in c-space
20:11:35 <valhallasw> (at least: that's afaik the reason you cannot just load the python2 interpreter from python3 code, while you can load, say, the perl or ruby interpreters)
20:12:03 <Alberth> and you can also do that with anything < 3
20:12:15 <andythenorth> Alberth: I never read a python tutorial :P
20:12:19 <andythenorth> I just started using it
20:12:53 <Alberth> valhallasw: 2-3 is the only point where it breaks, before it always works, and after it it will also work for a long time
20:14:42 *** pecisk_latvia is now known as pecisk
20:14:59 <valhallasw> that was, again, not my point
20:14:59 <Alberth> andy: who knows what treasures are still hidden in the tutorial :)
20:15:19 <valhallasw> it makes total perfect sense the python 3 interpreter cannot load python 2 code
20:15:26 <Alberth> valhallasw: I am sure perl and ruby also have or will have some points where they break
20:15:48 <valhallasw> Alberth: I'm talking about embedding the perl interpreter *in a python script* using the C api
20:16:03 <valhallasw> inconvenient, but possible
20:16:16 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
20:16:41 <Alberth> I'd add a virtual server in a virtual client to be safe
20:18:47 <valhallasw> "'pyperl' is an extension module that bridges the gap between Perl and Python. It allows Python code to invoke Perl code and operate directly on Perl data and permits Perl code to do the same to Python code and data. This provides for almost seamless integration between the languages and thereby greatly expands the library of modules available to each of the languages." < so if it can be done for perl, why not for py2? ;-)
20:23:10 <Alberth> ie converting the python code to py3 is simpler
20:23:34 <nat_as> oh god I asked a question then AFKED I'm terrible
20:23:52 <valhallasw> Alberth: yeah, let me just port all the libraries I need
20:24:01 <nat_as> anyways, my question was about making a set of fictonal trains that were balanced and usefull
20:24:29 <valhallasw> it's just not true: if there is a python2 library you need, for which there is not a python3 replacement, it forces you to use python2
20:24:52 <nat_as> as opposed to the sets of real trains which all have overly specific uses and are only really good for raillfans.
20:27:25 <Alberth> nat_as: unfortunately, different people have different ideas of "balanced and usefull". But yeah, you can make your own :)
20:28:44 <Alberth> there are plenty of people around here that understand nfo and/or nml, just try, and when you get stuck, ask for help here, or at the forum (graphics section)
20:29:36 <planetmaker> nat_as: you could help me expand the OpenGFX+ Trains to earlier (and later) years
20:30:01 <nat_as> what i mean by balanced and usefull is at every erra there will be a train that's good for Passingers a train that's good for cargo/general use, and a train that's good for heavy cargo/hills.
20:30:14 <nat_as> also a simple-er aircraft list
20:30:21 <nat_as> and actual cargo airplanes.
20:30:40 <planetmaker> The default trains are not that badly balanced... but can be slightly improved
20:30:42 <nat_as> like a C130 ish aircraft that can land on small strips without crashing and carry lots of cargo would be cool.
20:30:56 <nat_as> the defaul trains are nice, but only in the temprate climate
20:30:58 <planetmaker> is that balanced then?
20:31:03 <nat_as> in tropical or artic they don't exist.
20:31:16 <nat_as> the C130 would be balanced by being slow.
20:31:22 <nat_as> and not able to carry passingers.
20:31:46 <planetmaker> nat_as: OpenGFX+Trains gives you the choice to also use the temperate ones in tropical or arctic ;-)
20:31:48 <nat_as> for things like mail and gold/diamonds/valuables
20:32:50 <planetmaker> hm, I hope it's true for the version currently on bananas. It will be true for the one up next Sunday in any case
20:33:18 <plhalaser> then i install everything what i can and still same error on configure with lzma, i go try other compiler
20:34:13 <planetmaker> plhalaser: lzma is not a compiler thing. It's just a library
20:34:43 <nat_as> I think the train I made for Simutrans is in the actual game, I made a cargo train (forget the name) a double-stack container car, and an FP40PH (I don't know if that one is in)
20:35:06 <plhalaser> i know i install cygwin full everytning what i can from list
20:35:48 <Yexo> the cygwin compiler is not supported IIRC
20:35:50 <nat_as> I left simutrans however because the interface and graphics other people were making were garbage.
20:36:24 <nat_as> WHY do people think tracing 3d models is a good way to make sprites?
20:36:54 <nat_as> no I take that back, there have been good games that did that, but it's not generally a good idea for tile based isometric building games.
20:39:32 <Alberth> RRT and RCT did make a lot of money on it :p
20:40:15 <nat_as> I guess the problem is when you see it next to traditional pixel art.
20:40:22 <nat_as> it looks really really ugly.
20:40:33 <Alberth> people started making sprites that way, so they don't know how to make them 'the old way'
20:40:57 <nat_as> or maybe just the artists for simutrans were bad
20:41:15 <nat_as> with pixel art, a coherent style is important.
20:41:29 <Alberth> ie current artists never encountered the 2d way of doing things
20:41:54 <nat_as> like when i see traced sprites that aren't even aligned to the isometric grid I want to vomit.
20:42:01 <nat_as> a lot of the landmarks in simutrans are like that.
20:42:32 <Alberth> just like people here refuse to believe that 3d engines or multi-core cpus fail badly at openttd
20:43:05 <Alberth> yeah, and that is relatively easy to fix even
20:45:27 <Alberth> (21:46:34) nat_as: like when i see traced sprites that aren't even aligned to the isometric grid <-- that is easy to fix
20:45:53 <nat_as> just rotate the model and trace it aggain
20:46:44 <Dozzer_X> Is there any way to get the 32pp graphics installed?
20:47:02 <nat_as> actualy I think the simutrans landmarks are actual traced aerial photographs of real castles
20:47:03 <Alberth> I am sure there is, but no idea what it is :(
20:47:13 <nat_as> and as such might be impossible to align correctly.
20:47:25 <nat_as> because of FOV shenanigans.
20:47:57 <Alberth> nat_as: imho they should then fix the traces imho, reality is less important than looking good in-game
20:48:40 <Alberth> but opinions differ :)
20:49:24 <nat_as> is there any way to make engines bigger than .5 tiles without articulating them>
20:49:46 <nat_as> or is that a hard limitation of the system?
20:49:51 <Dozzer_X> <@Alberth> I am sure there is, but no idea what it is :(
20:50:17 <nat_as> I'm talking about the Centennials of corse
20:50:29 <nat_as> which are the same size as all other engines
20:51:20 <nat_as> I know multi car engines exist, and newgrifs have cars less than .5 tiles long
20:51:44 <nat_as> (which is more trouble than it's worth honestly, having a train 4.9 squares long is silly)
20:51:50 <frosch123> it's a pretty hard limitation
20:51:52 <Alberth> what is it with the 32bpp forum, a zillion stickies, but none about installing it
20:52:16 <frosch123> Alberth: it's the only forum where i do not miss stickies
20:52:31 <nat_as> so you can make a big boy as a .5 long engine and a .5 long tender. but you can't make a centenial that takes up a whole tile
20:52:39 <Alberth> Dozzer_X: the question pops up every week or so in the 3bpp forum, a search is likely to give you the answer
20:52:39 <nat_as> it would be strange to see it turn corners anyways.
20:53:09 <V453000> I think some train sets have for example 12/8 vehicles
20:53:35 <nat_as> I wonder if it could be worked around by making a spirte that hovers between two cars.
20:53:44 <V453000> though I have no clue how to make them either (would be a valuable info) ... does shorten_to_12_8 do the tricks?
20:54:01 <Yexo> V453000: it's not that easy
20:54:10 <nat_as> like the front and back bogies of the centenial would be it's actual cars, but it the engine sprite itself would be hovering beween them.
20:54:21 * nat_as has no idea how the engine works
20:54:37 <Yexo> the .5 tile limit is a hard limit. You can make engines appear longer by giving them a slightly bigger sprite and adding an articulated part with an invisible sprite
20:54:50 <Yexo> to make it look decent even in corners and on slopes more magic is needed
20:55:00 <V453000> oh, so a single engine/part of articulated vehicle cant be longer than 8/8?
20:55:07 <nat_as> that whs what I sugested anyways :V
20:55:22 <frosch123> V453000: a vehicle can only be on one tile, never on two
20:55:33 <nat_as> most of the time they just make the engine and tender two separate cars.
20:55:38 <nat_as> which is GREAT for steam engines.
20:55:42 <V453000> 8/8 still is a halftile isnt it frosch :)
20:55:57 <frosch123> it's a whole tile on diagonal tracks
20:56:19 <nat_as> but not so much for the centennial.
20:56:31 <V453000> hm that sucks, wanted 12/8 steamer with 4/8 tender ... guess I will have to cut the steamer :D
20:57:29 <nat_as> there's no way to make a sprite hover between two cars sadly is there.
20:57:45 <nat_as> because using the invisible car work around, the sprite would Shove off the track when going around turns.
20:58:21 <frosch123> nat_as: take a look at cets
20:58:54 <frosch123> central european trainset
20:59:08 <andythenorth> nat_as: AV8 has a C130 that I think can land at small airports
20:59:21 <V453000> cets just provides larger sprites?
20:59:34 <V453000> guess not eh then they would overlap
20:59:34 <nat_as> can't find it in the list
20:59:47 <V453000> it is in development you can find it on the devzone
21:00:09 <andythenorth> one step left to solve BANDIT: have the makefile call my python script :D
21:03:01 <Dozzer_X> I was seeing your discussion about SimuTrans
21:03:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what does the .in extension represent in CETS lang?
21:03:11 <Dozzer_X> But I don't have any idea at all on how to stop the sound
21:03:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: 1st line python: #!/usr/bin/env python
21:03:59 <Alberth> make it executable ( chmod u+x mypython.py )
21:03:59 <Alberth> Makefile: ./mypython.py
21:05:37 <Alberth> Dozzer_X: we discuss lots of things we have no clue about :p
21:05:48 <andythenorth> Alberth: done the shebang and chmod
21:05:58 <andythenorth> just got to figure out the makefile
21:06:32 <Dozzer_X> SimuTrans sucks hard
21:06:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: as in "what does its contents mean"?
21:06:50 <Alberth> Dozzer_X: that's why we do openttd :p
21:06:56 <andythenorth> Alberth where to add the call to my python script
21:07:22 <Dozzer_X> Are there any packs for 32 bit graphic in game?
21:08:06 <Alberth> but they are mostly not finished, so don't expect too much of them
21:17:35 <Dozzer_X> Where is openttd.cfg?
21:17:43 <Dozzer_X> Can't find it in my folders
21:18:38 <Yexo> you probably looked in the wrong place, see readme.txt for information on the correct ones
21:18:57 <nat_as> putting rubber and copper ore on the same train is a bad idea right?
21:19:03 <nat_as> because the copper will slow down the rubber?
21:23:52 <Alberth> with farms I sometimes have wheat and livestock together, and do a "full load any cargo"
21:24:11 <nat_as> but copper and rubber are diffrent
21:31:47 *** plhalaser has joined #openttd
21:34:42 *** Chris_Booth has joined #openttd
21:35:10 <plhalaser> hi, sorry im back and very sad, ive try mingw, and do the same with lzma, in readme i found ''Note that the MinGW distribution includes liblzma.'' can someone help me? dow to do step by step? best like for noob
21:40:26 *** supermop has joined #openttd
21:42:48 <nat_as> the AV8 pack has the same problem as the basic airplanes
21:42:54 <nat_as> so many, it's hard to chose which one
21:43:51 <Prof_Frink> nat_as: It's easy. Highest capacity.
21:44:49 *** andythenorth is now known as Guest111
21:44:49 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
21:44:49 *** andythenorth_ is now known as andythenorth
21:44:50 <nat_as> would be nice if you could hide airplanes with a stat below X amount
21:45:03 <nat_as> so you could find highest capacity below a specific operating price
21:45:53 <andythenorth> CETS fails to build for me
21:45:57 <andythenorth> no module ply.lex
21:47:14 <andythenorth> Alberth: now I've set the shebang, my paths fail
21:47:41 <andythenorth> how do I tell python a path relative to script location?
21:48:53 <Alberth> install ply at a point where python looks for libraries
21:49:25 <andythenorth> two unrelated issues :)
21:49:46 <Alberth> doing things relative to a script location is bound to give trouble when you move the script
21:51:09 <nat_as> man airports are AWESOME with cargodest
21:55:46 <nat_as> is there a setting to allow trucks and busses to make U turns?
21:57:16 <Alberth> andythenorth: so how does it fail ?
21:59:03 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
22:00:12 * andythenorth adventures with os.path
22:00:19 <andythenorth> maybe I just have to move my script location
22:00:39 <andythenorth> I can't figure out how to set a path relative to a parent directory
22:01:40 <Alberth> it's not recommended practice
22:02:07 <andythenorth> my script is in [reporoot]/scripts
22:02:20 <andythenorth> I need to write to a file in [reporoot]/lang
22:02:47 <Alberth> make is running in [reporoot] ?
22:03:12 <Alberth> normally you give the path as command-line argument to the script
22:03:47 <Alberth> ie script/foo lang/bar
22:04:38 <andythenorth> make is running in [reporoot]
22:04:47 <andythenorth> do I have to handle the args in python?
22:05:40 <Alberth> import sys; assert len(sys.argv) == 2; print sys.argv[1] is about the simplest way to do it
22:07:26 *** glx is now known as Guest112
22:07:52 <Alberth> for extra niceness, you can replace the assert with a 'if .. != 2: sys.stderr.write("Unexpected number of arguments\n"); sys.exit(1) ' or so
22:08:26 <andythenorth> I might have to do this another day
22:08:31 <andythenorth> my brain is kerplunk
22:08:49 <Alberth> or 'optparse' for earlier pythons
22:08:51 <andythenorth> so os.path is not the solution here?
22:09:23 <Alberth> os.path is for manipulating given paths, not for inventing them :)
22:09:28 <Zuu> Alberth: Nice highlight of the Tutorial there :-)
22:09:56 <Zuu> I hope it is roubust enough to not scare people :-)
22:10:26 <Alberth> Zuu: thanks for making it (I still need to have a look, hopefully I have some time tomorrow)
22:11:17 <andythenorth> if I remove the shebang my paths don't fail :P
22:11:24 <Zuu> I found out that if you have an AI active, it can end up telling you to click on the AI station at one place. This is fixed in hg but not released.
22:12:38 <andythenorth> it's wonderful when OS X secretly appends .txt to a file
22:12:48 <andythenorth> it's always such a good use of my life
22:12:59 <Zuu> Can't that be turned off?
22:13:57 <andythenorth> probably somewhere
22:14:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: no path magic needed :P
22:14:42 <andythenorth> it can't find a file name english.lng.in.txt if it is expecting to open english.lng.in :/
22:16:29 <andythenorth> but the python works now \o/
22:16:37 <andythenorth> so I need a makefile.local?
22:16:50 <Alberth> you just gotta love those OSes that don't take your file extensions seriously :p
22:17:53 <Rubidium> Alberth: the real unixy OSes that don't really care about extensions at all?
22:18:24 <Prof_Frink> We much prefer magic.
22:18:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: I don't know, I also get very much lost with the number of Makefiles that newgrf projects have
22:18:49 <Alberth> Rubidium: exactly, they consider what I say as the truth
22:19:24 <Alberth> (unfortunately, even when I am wrong :p )
22:19:36 <andythenorth> my filename was truthful
22:19:51 <andythenorth> the OS had just helpfully appended .txt, then hidden it in the file browser gui
22:19:52 <xiong> nat_as, Road vehicles normally make U turns if that's the quickest way for them to get where they are ordered. However they won't make a U turn in the middle of the road. If you know where you think a good U turn can be made, construct a short road section to the side, a T junction. It need not even extend into the next tile.
22:20:19 <andythenorth> planetmaker: where / how do I call a script from the makefile? :)
22:20:27 <Alberth> Zuu: nor has I yet spent <--- s/has/have/
22:21:07 <Zuu> Alberth: You get the point ;-)
22:21:43 <xiong> nat_as, Ah, also note that you can force any vehicle to reverse by clicking the appropriate button in the GUI.
22:23:17 <nat_as> cars go all over the place trying to turn around
22:23:23 <nat_as> why can't they just do a u turn
22:23:29 *** Simon is now known as Guest116
22:24:15 *** Guest116 is now known as nplus
22:26:01 <nplus> Is there any way to make hills longer/more gradual so they impact train speed less?
22:27:02 <frosch123> there is an advanced setting for that
22:27:16 <frosch123> you can reduce the slope to 0% making the game completely pointless
22:27:41 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what does the .in extension represent in CETS lang? <-- just something random... i thought like "input" or so
22:27:49 <andythenorth> I've stolen it :P
22:28:18 <frosch123> SmatZ: imo the game is about building a nice network considering the terrain an its restrictions
22:28:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I looked at CETS to understand how to call my .py script, but it's...complex :)
22:28:39 <frosch123> reducing the slope to 0% removes hills from the game :p
22:28:41 <nplus> i know about the setting, but I'm wondering if there was a ramp or a longer/less inclined hill - I'm not looking for a way to make the game easier
22:29:08 <SmatZ> frosch123: ok :) it depends on player's taste though :)
22:29:33 <SmatZ> you can still build huge railway networks on a flat terrain
22:29:40 <frosch123> SmatZ: i know that coop builds maglev going up 6 slopes in a row, but imo that is bad :p
22:30:02 <SmatZ> any slowdown causes jams
22:31:07 <andythenorth> if I simply add this to the makefile: include scripts/generate_from_pasted_input.py
22:31:18 <andythenorth> I get: scripts/generate_from_pasted_input.py:6: *** missing separator. Stop.
22:31:38 <Alberth> andythenorth: start the line with a TAB, not with spaces
22:31:53 <nplus> My thoughts are.. instead of 1 tile going up 1 level, make 2 tiles go up 1 level - increasing speed
22:32:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: in the python? Or the makefile?
22:32:28 <Alberth> nplus: I have long pieces of level track between hills
22:33:18 <andythenorth> TAB makes no difference
22:33:24 <andythenorth> the other includes are not spaced
22:34:24 <Alberth> hmm, line 6 at the python script looks wrong then?
22:34:50 <andythenorth> I'll check the python
22:35:21 <nat_as> why are there not two way path signals?
22:35:28 <Alberth> andythenorth: include???
22:35:45 <andythenorth> I have no idea how this works
22:36:04 <Alberth> include is for including other makefiles :p
22:36:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you need to call it in a rule to the file it creates
22:36:47 <Alberth> what file does it use, and what does it produce?
22:36:57 <andythenorth> input: paste_here.txt
22:37:08 <andythenorth> input: lang/english.lng.in
22:37:18 <andythenorth> output: lang/english.lng
22:37:25 <planetmaker> see for example cets or firs
22:37:34 <andythenorth> output: sprites/nml/trucks.pnml
22:37:35 <planetmaker> cets does what you want with lang files
22:37:54 <planetmaker> lang/english.lng.in --> lang/english.lng
22:38:03 <planetmaker> it's described in scripts/Makefile.in
22:39:06 <andythenorth> I have a CETS checkout
22:39:12 <andythenorth> which doesn't build, but nvm
22:39:28 <planetmaker> but bedtime for me
22:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with the build?
22:39:49 <andythenorth> can't find ply.lex
22:39:52 <Alberth> nat_as: what is called "Path Signal" can be used in two directions
22:40:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: probably an issue local to me
22:40:07 <Alberth> good night planetmaker
22:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, then your python install is missing the ply module
22:42:08 <Eddi|zuHause> dunno, had this for ages... never even thought it wasn't part of default install
22:42:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a neat little tool :)
22:43:23 <Alberth> many package managers have it as a package too :)
22:44:40 <andythenorth> it's just not found
22:45:25 <nat_as> trucks in depot don't have running costs right?
22:46:50 <andythenorth> my generator is now called by makefile
22:48:37 <andythenorth> so, I solved templating BANDIT with
22:49:07 <andythenorth> heavyweight web cms (overkill) -> copy & paste to file -> python processor -> CPP -> nml
22:49:46 <bopher> *** OpenTTD Crash Report ***
22:49:46 <bopher> Crash at: Sat Jan 21 22:44:29 2012
22:49:46 <bopher> In game date: 2410-02-09 (16)
22:49:50 <Alberth> just a matter of time before CPP dies :p
22:50:22 <frosch123> i bet he would have left anyway after pasting it
22:50:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: the down route is a little excessively curved
22:51:31 <Alberth> yeah, isn't it nice? :) it just came out this way after much fiddling
22:51:32 <andythenorth> Alberth: the CPP is really nice now
22:51:43 <andythenorth> CPP for constants is nice
22:51:53 <andythenorth> CPP variadic macros are bearable
22:52:02 <andythenorth> CPP #ifdef is...meh but ok
22:52:03 <Alberth> yeah, and for collecting several files too
22:52:16 <Alberth> aka the stuff it is designed for :p
22:52:40 <Eddi|zuHause> unless nml implements "modules", i don't see a sane way to drop CPP
22:52:45 <SpComb> try C++ templates instead
22:53:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: CPP variadic macros are a half assed solution to identifiers though
22:53:21 <andythenorth> the nfo solution of repeating IDs locally was significantly better
22:53:34 <andythenorth> it's the one and only place nfo wins for me so far
22:53:39 <andythenorth> but it wins hard
22:53:50 <andythenorth> this was what, 2 weeks to figure out a simple templating problem?
22:53:56 <andythenorth> local to each item
22:54:20 <andythenorth> identifiers only global if explicitly declared as such, otherwise scoped to item
22:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, took me 10 minutes to research the variadic macros, and another 20 minutes to restructure the dummy engine to use them...
22:55:03 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: took me two weeks to arrive approximately same place as you :P
22:55:15 <nat_as> man, dilivering goods to houses is anoying
22:55:24 <nat_as> there should just be a "Store" factory
22:55:33 <andythenorth> I'm basically now running a python code generator, keeping quite a lot of CPP
22:55:47 <nat_as> MAKE UP YOUR GOD DAMN MIND! do you want food and goods or not?
22:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: basically, within one day, CETS went from one engine to ~300 :)
22:56:19 * Alberth is very afraid of how large BANDIT will become :)
22:57:52 <andythenorth> one new truck = setting 20 properties in a web form
22:57:57 <andythenorth> also graphics and crap :P
22:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the graphics code is what needs the ply magic :)
22:58:58 <andythenorth> nat_as: try FIRS, it has a food market, does what you suggest
22:59:33 <Eddi|zuHause> nat_as: basically the city center usually accepts goods and the city outskirts accept food
22:59:58 <andythenorth> I should set .gnml extension
22:59:58 <andythenorth> and tell hg to ignore it
23:00:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how are you ignoring lang files?
23:00:13 <frosch123> play toyland, small towns accepts sweets, bigger towns accept fizzy drinks
23:00:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that's exactly the same conclusion i came to :)
23:00:24 <andythenorth> just ignore .lng?
23:00:58 <Eddi|zuHause> # Ignore intermediate files created by the Makefile:
23:01:02 <Eddi|zuHause> lang/english.lng
23:01:18 <nat_as> my train stations are always on the outskirts
23:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> probably should change that to *.lng
23:01:26 <nat_as> to avoid angering the authorities
23:01:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and start with supporting translations
23:01:35 <nat_as> I let them build around me instead of the other way around
23:02:14 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, the other languages probably don't need autogenerating
23:02:31 <Eddi|zuHause> since the autogenerated strings are probably untranslatable
23:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> so the other .lng only need the "static" strings
23:03:05 <andythenorth> generator is way easier than maintaining 10 bazillion files for inclusion
23:03:16 <andythenorth> all that formatting and crap
23:03:40 <andythenorth> I just caused the makefile to loop
23:03:40 <Alberth> also much more fun :)
23:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> my generator currently writes one file for each engine, the file that includes all engine files, the file that sorts the purchase list, and the lang file. plus two files which handle some magical parameter defines
23:05:15 <nat_as> is there a way to make years advance slower?
23:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> nat_as: the pause button
23:05:28 <nat_as> I like playing in fast mode because I am impatent and don't want to wait for money
23:05:41 <nat_as> but i don't want it to be 2057 so quickly
23:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> nat_as: there's a bunch of "daylength" patches, but they're all somewhat incomplete
23:07:13 <nat_as> are they compatible with cargodest?
23:07:37 <Eddi|zuHause> don't say cargodest if you're playing cargodist
23:07:50 <nat_as> what is the diffrence?
23:08:08 <nat_as> i am using the one that gives cargo destinations
23:08:21 <nat_as> not one that affects distance
23:08:33 <Eddi|zuHause> dist stands for distribution
23:08:50 <nat_as> oh you are right, sorry
23:09:47 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
23:09:54 * andythenorth remembered something
23:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> this is not the bed.
23:10:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how are you handling vehicle IDs (wrt savegame breakage etc)?
23:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a column in the tracking table, to make them fixed
23:10:29 <andythenorth> I'm thinking the same
23:10:38 <andythenorth> gets messy if I change the number of trailers per vehicle
23:10:50 <andythenorth> I'll figure it out I guess
23:10:55 <Eddi|zuHause> they don't have to be in any kind of order
23:11:01 <Eddi|zuHause> just be unique, and constant
23:11:09 <andythenorth> plenty to choose from
23:11:16 <andythenorth> is the limit 65k?
23:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> 64k for heads, 16k for trailers
23:11:41 <nat_as> what is "other" expenses?"
23:11:47 <nat_as> is that trees I planted?
23:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nat_as: bribing, advertising, ...
23:12:20 <andythenorth> I could give each lead truck a block of 100 IDs still have enough spare below 16k :P
23:12:33 <nat_as> but I DID just put a bunch of trees
23:12:33 <andythenorth> although blocks of 10 would be plenty too
23:12:41 <nat_as> so I guess that counts as a bribe :V
23:12:46 <andythenorth> but now sleep time
23:12:47 <Eddi|zuHause> nat_as: there's also a fixed fee that gets deduced every month
23:14:37 <nat_as> I am at this point where my profits and expensies are both really really high
23:14:51 <nat_as> so I go in the hole for months at a time before my profits drag me otu
23:15:00 <nat_as> even though I am earning more money than I lose
23:15:05 <nat_as> it sucks waiting though
23:15:09 <nat_as> I have shit to build now!
23:15:24 <Eddi|zuHause> need to make your network more efficient
23:16:30 <nat_as> that would be prohibitively expensive.
23:16:48 <nat_as> although I think some of my trains can be trimmed
23:17:37 <Eddi|zuHause> costs grow faster than income
23:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> so you need to constantly improve your network
23:17:49 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
23:18:31 <nat_as> replacing my frieght engines will be hard
23:18:44 <nat_as> new ones cost almost 200,000
23:18:52 <nat_as> and wont last as long!
23:19:00 *** Progman has joined #openttd
23:21:15 <nat_as> hmm, passengers don't seem to make two way trips, even in cargodist.
23:21:23 <nat_as> they all go to this one town at the end of the line
23:21:55 <nat_as> train comes back empty every time.
23:22:10 <nat_as> that's both disturbing and ineficant.
23:25:14 <nat_as> can't get my rubber train to make any money
23:28:43 <frosch123> maybe that town is big into selling cars
23:34:36 <xiong> nat_as, Are you playing with cargodist or cargodest?
23:34:54 <nat_as> what is the diffrence between the two, other than the name
23:37:09 <xiong> Good question. I'm playing cargodist.
continue to next day ⏵
