IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-28
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00:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... problem: fast forward does not fast forward script execution during pause
00:17:45 <glx> why would it ?
00:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it does during unpause...
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00:46:52 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 3200*log(3200)
00:46:52 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 25826.8994841
00:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Gesundheit.
00:50:52 <z-MaTRiX> just extracting some data from bios and found this
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01:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's weird... i get no intersections between the perpendiculars of a triangle. this can never happen with "real" triangles. so how does that happen?
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07:01:43 <Elukka>
07:01:46 <Elukka> that sure is a weird bug someone is having
07:03:38 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like someone who installed chills patchpack without the additional grfs
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07:08:49 <planetmaker> moin
07:11:10 * Arafangion wonders how well OpenTTD scales up with map size.
07:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> rather bad
07:17:26 <Arafangion> Worse than O(N^2)?
07:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on your value of N
07:18:06 <Arafangion> In big-o notation, "N" is the most significant value.
07:18:36 <Arafangion> Wel, the 'N^2' part.
07:18:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that's like the least sensible answer you could possibly give
07:18:44 <Arafangion> And I'm referring to the size of the map.
07:19:03 <Arafangion> Ie, "N" is the size in tiles, assuming a square map.
07:19:15 <Arafangion> The length, rather. (Damn, where's my language today?)
07:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if N is "the size of the map" in the sense of the settings map_x and map_y, then it's exponential
07:19:56 <Arafangion> Ie, x^N?
07:19:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if N is "the number of tiles on the map", it's more near linear
07:20:09 <Arafangion> Hmm, so it's effectively O(N^2)
07:20:18 <Arafangion> But you're implying that there are other, more serious factors?
07:20:51 <Eddi|zuHause> there are LOTS of factors
07:21:05 <Eddi|zuHause> used industry/house newgrfs
07:21:10 <Eddi|zuHause> number of vehicles
07:21:19 <Eddi|zuHause> complexity of your network
07:21:27 <Eddi|zuHause> size of towns
07:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> number of towns
07:21:35 <Arafangion> Size of towns?
07:21:54 <Arafangion> This is all in a single thread?
07:22:08 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
07:22:59 <Arafangion> Nice. :)
07:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> one significant factor is the amount of cargo
07:23:37 <Arafangion> Actually, *that* surprises me.
07:23:52 <Arafangion> I would've thought that the amount of cargo was essentially insignificant?
07:24:50 <Eddi|zuHause> all cargo packets on the map are looped regularly, to "age" the cargo
07:25:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and with cargo destinations it becomes even worse
07:25:12 <Arafangion> Makes sense.
07:25:39 <Arafangion> I gotta go, but it seems that OpenTTD is vastly more complicated the more time I look at it. :)
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07:42:03 <planetmaker> Arafangion: somewhere the 300k LOC have to have an effect ;-)
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08:24:41 <Celestar> \o
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08:32:53 <dihedral> oi
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09:26:09 <Xaroth> o/
09:27:47 <dihedral> Xa-woot?
09:31:00 <appe> morning
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09:33:28 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, you'd've thought a cargo date would've solved that
09:35:31 <peter1138> of course, then it would age when it 'shouldn't'
09:40:07 <Celestar> double apostrophe? :P
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09:47:31 <dihedral> <- Resolution ;-)
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09:53:07 <peter1138> heh
09:54:03 <Brianetta> morning
09:59:50 <V453000> wut :d
10:11:29 * Brianetta knows a Peter Nelson IRL
10:11:39 <Xaroth> dihedral: expensive bottle of bubbles that is..
10:12:53 <Xaroth> lol @ the history of that page, dih.
10:14:45 <peter1138> clones O_o
10:15:57 * peter1138 smirks at FS#4855
10:16:56 <Xaroth> broken!
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10:24:10 <dihedral> that's worth a smile :-)
10:31:07 <Celestar> @openttd bug 4855
10:31:07 <DorpsGek> Celestar: Temporary Offline
10:31:10 <Celestar> ....
10:33:21 <Celestar> *sigh*
10:33:28 * Celestar is done with SWTOR feedback.
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10:33:56 <planetmaker> yeah... the DDR is gone and we got the dope :-P
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10:36:49 <Celestar> What a pity that bioware left out the whole industry part in SWTOR
10:39:50 <Noldo> hm?
10:40:35 <MNIM> Star Wars : the old republic?
10:47:25 <Celestar> yes
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10:50:12 <Celestar> it's actually not bad.
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11:24:55 * Celestar wonders why this stupid monitor is unable to turn the stupid OSD while the monitor is in Portrait configuration
11:26:10 <b_jonas> Celestar: is it a monitor that's originally intended to be usable as portait, such as coming with a frame that allows you to set it up portrait?
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11:43:11 <Celestar> b_jonas: yeah
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12:18:08 <peter1138> yeah, mine has no sensors for that
12:18:13 <peter1138> also it looks really strange
12:18:18 <peter1138> it was good for openbve though
12:21:17 <peter1138> looks like a completely different aspect ratio
12:52:27 <peter1138> stupid drivers
12:52:42 <peter1138> the resolution list is in the wrong aspect ratio when rotated
12:52:53 <peter1138> can't play fullscreen :(
12:54:08 <Celestar> ffs.
12:54:16 <Celestar> I got 3 upcoming meetings this afternoon.
12:54:20 <Celestar> all in room "tbd".
12:54:29 * Celestar is happy that he doesn't have to move about.
12:55:16 <Celestar> why don't they just label all meeting rooms "tbd" ...
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13:27:56 <blathijs> Celestar: I'm afraid that means the meeting rooms are still to be constructed...
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13:40:19 <b_jonas> Celestar: that means they've now told what room the meeting is in, put that info on a random place on the web (or an IRL bulletin board) you'll never find even if you look for it, and forgot to notify you about it. then they'll ask you afterwards why you didn't come.
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14:09:51 <peter1138> brrr, so cold
14:10:07 <Celestar> b_jonas: as always.
14:16:56 <andythenorth> this is just what the coop makefile does, no?
14:23:37 <Belugas> hello
14:32:03 <peter1138> i don't really get it. last time i make a newgrf it was seconds...
14:32:37 <peter1138> *made
14:36:28 <andythenorth> can be ~1 min for a big newgrf, worse if you have a poor performing O
14:36:29 <andythenorth> S
14:37:35 <peter1138> is it multithreaded ;)
14:41:02 <andythenorth> is it xml?
14:41:11 <andythenorth> does it offset the work to your GPU?
14:41:14 <andythenorth> is it HD?
14:43:37 <peter1138> i could add support for "HD" sprites
14:43:47 <peter1138> HD ready maybe
14:45:40 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the coop makefile does a pre-processing which will put together a big nfo or nml file. Building a NewGRF from several 'object' files is something which I don't see happen anytime soon. If at all
14:46:50 <planetmaker> peter1138: I like the idea of 'HD ready'. We should add stickers to OpenTTD and a big flashy sign in the start-up screen which also tells that
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14:55:52 * andythenorth likes the idea of vehicles in vehicles
14:55:58 <andythenorth> how about a sticker on the box for that?
14:56:11 <andythenorth> "now with Vehicles-in-Vehicles®tm"
14:57:35 <planetmaker> "now with the power of the new grf v8" ;-)
14:57:52 <planetmaker> and people will ask like "I don't see anything new!" :-P
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15:10:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: 'snappier'
15:10:20 <andythenorth> like an apple OS update :P
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15:31:01 <peter1138> andythenorth, what, we'd charge for it?
15:39:05 <andythenorth> maybe
15:39:30 <andythenorth> although without going all fanboi, apple updates are free or cheap :
15:39:32 <andythenorth> :P
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15:55:35 * Rubidium wonders whether Celestar is still online
15:56:59 <Rubidium> as he usually disconnects right before I'm back from work
15:57:33 <Arafangion> Hmm, not a good sign, I'm afraid. :(
15:58:31 <Eddi|zuHause> the difference between people online AT work, and people online AFTER work :p
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16:00:35 <Arafangion> :) G'night folks!
16:10:10 * TrueBrain is content. Just finished bi-directional communication between GameScript and AdminPort :D
16:10:15 <TrueBrain> I love that shit :)
16:11:31 * Rubidium is sad, TrueBrain isn't on the content service ;)
16:11:53 * TrueBrain copies itself to it
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16:30:26 <Xaroth> Rubidium: I wonder under what category one would have to file a TrueBrain
16:30:57 <TrueBrain> Useless Toys?
16:31:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "Are you thinking what i am thinking?"
16:38:02 <Celestar> Rubidium: nope :P
16:38:05 <Celestar> Rubidium: I'm gone :D
16:38:13 <Celestar> *poof*
16:38:58 <Rubidium> ciao Celestar
16:40:29 <Celestar> nah
16:40:30 <Celestar> I'm on for 20 more minutes, roughly
16:40:30 <Celestar> case my connection hasn't just died :P
16:40:30 <Celestar> which it apparently has.
16:40:30 <Celestar> hello?!
16:40:37 <peter1138> hel
16:40:38 <peter1138> lo
16:42:34 <Celestar> so .. erm .. hi Rubidium (=
16:47:19 <Celestar> because I gotta run now :P
16:47:24 <Celestar> cya
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16:49:04 <Eddi|zuHause> weird 20 minutes he has
16:49:20 <TrueBrain> I think he is moving slower than us
16:50:05 <Eddi|zuHause> that's also weird, because "fast" is one of the least likely attributes people would give me :p
16:51:00 <TrueBrain> well, you are on this rock called earth, which is moving with a nice speed through space too
16:51:11 <TrueBrain> maybe Celestar is outside of the earth
16:51:15 <TrueBrain> I dunno .... :P
16:51:35 <TrueBrain> (it still makes no sense, I know, but shut up :P)
16:51:51 <Eddi|zuHause> he said his astronaut carreer kinda fell through :p
16:52:30 <TrueBrain> in the literal sense maybe?
16:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, the speed of earth is kinda irrelevant wrt time dilation, because it's only the relative speed that counts
16:54:17 <TrueBrain> and if he is standing still, there is a relative difference, is ther enot? :)
16:54:20 <TrueBrain> (with respect to the earth)
16:54:42 <TrueBrain> it is still neglectable, hence my remark, but I had to come up with something why for him time goes by twice as fast :P
16:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> it's almost thrice
16:56:16 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what is "standing still"? ;-)
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16:57:01 <MNIM> Well, perhaps he's closer to the equator?
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16:57:50 <MNIM> the closer to the equator you are, the faster you move, as the radius of that circle that turns .1 degree per minute increases
16:57:54 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, the point is, there's no way to go "slower" than you are, because you have always speed 0
17:00:42 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: like said, with respect to the earth ;)
17:00:50 <peter1138> gah
17:00:55 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and that was my point: you never have speed 0
17:00:58 <peter1138> why does this have to be written in actionscript? :(
17:01:07 <TrueBrain> from some .. what is the english word ... "iniitaalstelse" .. euuhh ...
17:01:10 <TrueBrain> you always have a speed :P
17:01:27 <TrueBrain> even my dutch fails horribly, lolz
17:03:23 <MNIM> Oh lol, don't worry
17:03:26 <MNIM> I'm dutch
17:03:33 <TrueBrain> so translate it for me ffs :P
17:03:43 <MNIM> and I'm afraid my writing skill is better in english than in dutch >.<
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18:15:04 <Zuu> Why does the English string for STR_CONFIG_SETTING_ZOOM_MIN say, _maximum_ zoom in level?
18:15:55 <frosch123> it is zoom in vs. zoom out
18:16:18 <frosch123> maximum zoom in and maximum zoom out
18:16:41 <Zuu> that refers to some zoom axis. okay I get it.
18:16:55 <frosch123> it's the viewport zoom
18:17:00 <Eddi|zuHause> string could use a less ambiguous name, though
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18:39:27 * andythenorth has been pondering
18:43:34 <Xaroth> that's a dangerous thing to do
18:44:18 <andythenorth> for a truck set...vehicles that get less reliable / cost more to run for cargos like rock than for cargos like goods
18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23346 /trunk/src/lang/swedish.txt:
18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: swedish - 8 changes by Zuu
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18:47:01 <andythenorth> also - what reasons are there to choose a truck with a sleeper cab versus not?
18:47:08 <andythenorth> gameplay reasons...
18:48:34 <frosch123> the latter only drives 1/3 of the time
18:48:41 <andythenorth> I wondered that :P
18:48:46 <andythenorth> measure travel time, then stop for a bit :P
18:54:33 <Terkhen> hello
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18:55:23 <andythenorth> hola Terkhen
18:56:21 * andythenorth wonders how many trailers trucks should be able to pull
18:56:44 <Xaroth> depends if you're going for the american road train concept
18:56:46 <Xaroth> if so, a LOT.
18:57:13 * andythenorth has learnt too much about weights and length limits for trucks :P
18:57:22 <Rubidium> 25,25m is the max length here
18:57:25 <andythenorth> most us states limit to doubles
18:57:28 <andythenorth> some allow triples
18:57:37 <glx> Xaroth: australian is more impressive I think
18:57:45 <andythenorth> australia allows doubles and triples on highway
18:57:45 <Xaroth> glx: probably
18:57:53 <andythenorth> aus - unlimited length off highway
18:58:14 * andythenorth might do parameters for different regions
18:58:24 <andythenorth> don't really like reality much though :P
19:00:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: in the NLs doubles and even triples are allowed on the highway as well (given some preconditions)
19:01:12 <andythenorth> I was trying to figure some way to allow that but limit it
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19:01:59 <andythenorth> if every truck can have triples, then everybody will always just build triples :P
19:02:03 <andythenorth> kind of dull
19:02:34 <Rubidium> well, in the NL a double or triple would be equally long
19:02:45 <andythenorth> LHV rules?
19:02:53 * andythenorth has been to wikipedia and such :P
19:03:34 <Rubidium> somewhat, though... 25,25m and 60t vs 18,75m and 50t
19:03:49 <Rubidium> the latter is for a regular truck
19:04:47 <Rubidium> DfT has no humour; they should've allowed them to be 4 inches longer ;)
19:05:07 <Rubidium> 11 axle 111ft 11in truck ;)
19:05:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the only regular vehicle in germany that may have two trailers is an agricultural tractor
19:06:04 <andythenorth> hmm
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19:06:20 <andythenorth> I could do general parameters for limiting trailers
19:06:30 <andythenorth> or I could have groups of vehicles for regions, again with parameters
19:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> there are "oversized" vehicles that obey to different rules, but they are subject to very specific limitations on usage
19:07:01 * andythenorth is searching for some interesting gameplay ideas for trucks
19:07:46 <andythenorth> the actual trucks are going to be pretty vanilla, all made from modular components
19:08:09 <andythenorth> it would be interesting to make choices about truck x or truck y instead of 'build largest + fastest'
19:08:32 <andythenorth> bridge weight limits :P
19:08:37 <andythenorth> town limits :P
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19:10:53 <andythenorth> roadtypes :P
19:11:09 <Zuu> In NL, are busses of 25.25 m allowed or just trucks?
19:12:27 <Rubidium> we have busses of 25m
19:12:55 <Zuu> Here the limit is 18,75 for buses although there exist some exceptions that has got special permision.
19:13:28 <Zuu> For trucks we have the same longer limit as you.
19:13:35 <Rubidium> I'd like to call them karts; they generally go faster through the city than the normal 11m busses
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19:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "Heute fahren Doppelgelenkbusse als niederflurige Konstruktionen in den Niederlanden, Deutschland, Schweden und Luxemburg. Dabei werden vor allem Fahrzeuge des belgischen Herstellers Van Hool, darunter vor allem der Typ AGG 300, eingesetzt."
19:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <-- says "Length: 24,8m"
19:24:12 <andythenorth> pah
19:24:15 <andythenorth> buses :P
19:24:33 <frosch123> buses are as stupid as multiple-units in trainsets
19:25:05 <andythenorth> so assume everyone uses egrvts currently, what would you like to be different from it?
19:25:17 <frosch123> nicer graphics
19:25:33 <frosch123> egrvs is kind of blurry
19:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't use eGRVTS
19:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd like a split off with only the horse drawn vehicles
19:26:28 <andythenorth> I am not planning any horses :)
19:26:33 <andythenorth> maybe there's a window there
19:26:43 <andythenorth> I'm not planning buses either
19:27:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i use GermanRV usually, but it has only generic/stupid trucks
19:29:12 <andythenorth> what's stupid about them?
19:29:16 <andythenorth> for reference...
19:30:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they're only re-codings of the original trucks, because development of the truck section has been stuck for very long and was holding back on a release
19:31:57 <andythenorth> hmm
19:32:07 <andythenorth> planning a truck set is kind of tricky
19:32:18 <andythenorth> HEQS is easy :
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19:32:48 <Wolf01> evenink
19:35:39 <andythenorth> I might make some untrue assumptions, like 6x4 trucks are better at going up hill than 6x2 trucks
19:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a list of proposed trucks here:
19:41:09 * andythenorth looks
19:42:21 <peter1138> anyone ported that polygon map generator yet? ;)
19:42:29 <peter1138> anyone(tm)
19:42:35 <Eddi|zuHause> haha :p
19:42:47 <andythenorth> anyone done rivers > 1 tile wide?
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19:43:03 * andythenorth looked at the river code, but understood it < 100%
19:43:26 <Wolf01> it would be interesting if you understood it > 1100%
19:43:35 <Wolf01> *-1000
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19:43:56 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's easy ;)
19:43:57 <Eddi|zuHause> my triangulation algorithm still has some sporadic wrong results, which i can't isolate
19:44:32 <Wolf01> try using > 5 points like GPS
19:44:43 <Rubidium> just "flooding" to the closest lower point and then pathfinding between those with a random distance function
19:45:32 <andythenorth> I looked for an obvious 'change this value to 2 for 2 tile rivers'
19:45:34 <andythenorth> didn't see it :P
19:45:57 <andythenorth> I figured that would need a different approach
19:46:04 <andythenorth> drawing a tile either side of the path (like a spline)
19:46:55 <andythenorth> incidentally if we wanted diagonals for rivers, I'd draw them. I'll moan about it, but I'll do it
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19:47:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: i mean this:
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20:00:18 <LordAro> <-- i'll let someone else more flame-y than i reply to that :L
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20:03:55 <andythenorth> LordAro: he's trolling
20:03:59 <andythenorth> for lulz
20:04:45 <LordAro> it would be more fun to go along with it :)
20:08:15 <andythenorth> he is quite concerned to help us get more than 300 players
20:08:21 <andythenorth> which might be a valid goal
20:08:36 <andythenorth> have we got 300 players yet?
20:09:49 <LordAro> must be pretty close by now
20:10:05 <valhallasw> I'd rather estimate it at
20:10:20 <valhallasw> that it's OVER NINE THOUSAND~~~~~~~
20:10:25 <valhallasw> [/caps abuse]
20:10:42 <andythenorth> at least nine thousand
20:12:20 <planetmaker> I countd 234 players currently
20:12:37 <planetmaker> but most will not play on public servers, I guess
20:13:04 <TWerkhoven> or concurrently
20:23:29 <Terkhen> I reckon that many people do not play online
20:25:14 <b_jonas> how do you count them?
20:25:18 <LordAro> i certainly very rarely play online
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20:31:51 <planetmaker> @base 0x53 + 2*12
20:31:51 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: Error: '0x53' is not a valid base.
20:32:04 <planetmaker> @calc 0x53 + 2*12
20:32:04 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 107
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21:04:55 <Terkhen> good night
21:06:46 <andythenorth> Terkhen: bye :)
21:07:07 <peter1138> hm
21:07:37 <planetmaker> g'night
21:09:28 <andythenorth> early bed times :)
21:09:33 *** Wolfsherz has quit IRC
21:09:35 * andythenorth does work
21:10:57 * peter1138 does not
21:12:34 <andythenorth> try debugging
21:12:50 <andythenorth> or switch it on and off again
21:13:11 <andythenorth> I often find it useful to hit refresh when something doesn't work
21:13:13 <andythenorth> just to see
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21:14:59 <B-17> Hello.
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21:54:51 <Belugas> haaaa... imagine how popular would OpenTTD be if it was in 3D... man... It could be sold, and it will sale like water bottles in sahara
21:55:19 <andythenorth> we'd be rich
21:55:20 <andythenorth> we?
21:55:25 <Belugas> poor guy... he does not understand at all...
21:55:29 <Belugas> we?
21:55:31 <andythenorth> I think he's a troll
21:55:34 <Rubidium> Belugas: they already have too many water bottles in the Sahara ;)
21:55:38 <andythenorth> Rubidium would be rich :P
21:55:43 <Belugas> he's a stinking troll
21:55:51 <Belugas> ho... ok Rubidium :)
21:56:01 <andythenorth> T_Tycoon?
21:56:07 <Belugas> like water bottles on Mars
21:56:10 <Belugas> yes andythenorth
21:56:15 <andythenorth> the name is troll
21:56:15 <Rubidium> only "problem" it's the empty type of water bottle
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21:56:38 <andythenorth> probably he's just a silly kid, but it seems troll-esque to me
21:56:40 <Belugas> bottle of rhum on a pirate ship at drift since a week!
21:56:55 * andythenorth goes back to plotting trucks
21:57:05 <andythenorth> a truck for every cargo type, or refits?
21:57:51 * Belugas goes back to home and basement improvement. another gyps wall to put on, a few more sound proof foam to lay down, a heater to install...
21:57:57 <Rubidium> one truck for each cargo, then refitting it for speed and capacity ;)
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21:58:15 <andythenorth> refit for costs
21:58:35 <andythenorth> I would like my truck to be (1) expensive (2) very expensive (3) cheap
21:59:06 <Rubidium> e.g refitting the "People truck" to MPS Regal, Hereford Leopard, Foster and Forst MkII
21:59:43 <andythenorth> it's a winning idea
22:00:49 <andythenorth> if we had a nested tree GUI for refits that would be better
22:01:04 <andythenorth> truck -> people truck -> MPS Regal, Hereford Leopard etc
22:01:12 <andythenorth> then only one vehicle needed
22:02:27 <andythenorth> hmm
22:02:31 <andythenorth> can we nest it further
22:02:40 <andythenorth> vehicle -> truck -> etc
22:03:04 <andythenorth> implement everything as a plane, make it fly at altitude 0
22:04:39 <andythenorth> in fact, let's remove as much variety as possible
22:05:52 <andythenorth> if we work really hard, we can get the game down to a single button
22:05:58 <andythenorth> you click it, and it says
22:06:00 <andythenorth> "You Win"
22:06:03 <andythenorth> in HD
22:10:56 <andythenorth> good night
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22:26:05 <peter1138> hm
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22:42:41 <Wolf01> 'night all
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22:49:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling debug output is actually a very expensive operation in squirrel
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23:03:45 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it is not only a feeling
23:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i also have a feeling that float precision is not high enough
23:04:14 <TrueBrain> I have a feeling you should avoid floats :P
23:04:16 <Eddi|zuHause> so i'm getting 0's where they shouldn't be
23:04:30 <TrueBrain> make them 1s?
23:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> well, they're kinda helpful in algebraic calculations
23:04:52 * TrueBrain ponders releasing a new NoGo ..
23:05:01 <TrueBrain> I want to see the new sprakles in action ..
23:05:54 <TrueBrain> sparkles
23:05:57 <TrueBrain> typing is *hard*
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23:12:59 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: what would be the reason to avoid floats, actually?
23:15:36 <TrueBrain> I hate floats :)
23:15:39 <TrueBrain> just a general thing I have :)
23:15:51 <TrueBrain> nowedays using floats is a good thing, with offloading of all that shit etc :P
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23:16:53 <TrueBrain> the only reason to avoid floats in Squirrel would be that we don't support save/loading them, nor sending them to the AdminPort :P
23:17:01 <TrueBrain> but that is just very minor bullshit :)
23:17:41 <Yexo> hmm, we don't support saving/loading of floats?
23:17:58 <TrueBrain> nope
23:18:02 <TrueBrain> integers, booleans, string, array and tables
23:18:28 <TrueBrain> owh, and null :P
23:18:47 <TrueBrain> and given by the fact nobody complained about it, I am guessing nobody is using save/load functionality of the AI :D (or nobody uses floats :P But I doubt that)
23:19:09 <Yexo> floats aren't that useful for AIs
23:19:25 <TrueBrain> I guess
23:19:26 <Yexo> and saving/loading is a bitch, so you might be right that a lot of people avoid it
23:19:35 <TrueBrain> I can't blame them :)
23:19:40 <TrueBrain> it has to be used for GS much more
23:19:44 <TrueBrain> so we will see how that goes
23:19:47 <Yexo> in any case, the important parts to save are most likely integers (all IDs)
23:20:48 <TrueBrain> anyway, Eddi|zuHause, I always rather fancy multiplying by some amount (1024, ..) to create a float in integer
23:21:03 <TrueBrain> it gives me both a resolution of my liking, and a value I can work with easily
23:21:11 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that's a fixed point number
23:21:16 <TrueBrain> I dislike floats moving around in their resolution depending on what you put in it
23:21:16 <Eddi|zuHause> not a float point number :)
23:21:18 <TrueBrain> it annoys the crap out of me :)
23:21:34 <TrueBrain> that is what I am saying, am I not?
23:21:38 <Yexo> it can be very useful when you need really large numbers
23:21:52 <TrueBrain> Yexo: even in Astronomy I avoid floats :)
23:22:05 <TrueBrain> and then I talk about really large values from time to time :)
23:22:36 <Yexo> yesterday during a programming contest we faced a problem were calculations would overflow a 64 bit integer so we used doubles to avoid that
23:22:52 <TrueBrain> if you don't need the precision, that works, yup :)
23:22:54 <Yexo> ok, it was ugly, but it worked :p
23:23:00 <Eddi|zuHause> use 128bit integers :)
23:23:11 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you want ot kill the algorithm al together? :P
23:23:23 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: and how would you do that without external libraries?
23:23:33 <TrueBrain> write your own! :P
23:23:34 <Yexo> and in very limited amount of time?
23:23:39 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [ai] [18] [E] Error: inconsistent projections <-- ok, i broke it
23:23:40 <TrueBrain> in C++ it is not _that_ hard, but ugh .....
23:23:50 * TrueBrain gives Eddi|zuHause a cookie :(
23:24:20 <Yexo> I didn't know nml was this slow when compiling cets
23:24:25 <Yexo> it takes over 5 minutes on my laptop
23:24:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: integer multiplication should already yield 128 bit, so it's just a matter of picking the right assembler code :)
23:24:48 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: assembler code was not allowed
23:25:23 <TrueBrain> ugh, why does that remind me of Dune2, with its endless 16bit register for 32bit variables shit
23:25:26 <TrueBrain> such ugly code :P
23:25:43 <TrueBrain> add + adc ftw ....
23:25:48 <Eddi|zuHause> it's one of the most annoying parts of C (or many higher languages), that it just throws away the upper half of the result of an integer multiplication
23:26:25 <Eddi|zuHause> or one of div/mod for integer division, while all known algorithms provide both
23:26:32 <TrueBrain> try doing ror or rol in C :)
23:26:38 <Yexo> yeah, it's a beartrap in c: uint64 a = int32 * int32; will still throw away the upper 32 bits
23:30:58 <TrueBrain> haha, epic, GS can now build signs for other companies :D
23:30:59 <TrueBrain> hihi
23:31:15 <TrueBrain> for some reason I expect a lot of abuse from it, but lets hope it will be used more for good :)
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23:33:52 <TrueBrain> this is starting to be a very thin line I come to realise :) Some weird options come to mind ....
23:36:42 <Eddi|zuHause> don't limit functionality too much
23:37:01 <TrueBrain> that is the issue :P
23:37:06 <TrueBrain> I just kicked the door WIDE open
23:37:22 <TrueBrain> a GS can now be an AI for all purposes
23:37:34 <TrueBrain> in fact, it can be all 15 AIs ...
23:37:54 <TrueBrain> I hope you agree that is not limiting :D
23:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine a tutorial that builds a few signals for you as an example
23:38:20 <TrueBrain> for that I want it to be used
23:38:25 <TrueBrain> as that is one of the goals of NoGo
23:38:35 <TrueBrain> but I am afraid it will be used for many other much more nasty things to come :D
23:38:47 <TrueBrain> "assisted AI" :P
23:38:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hehe :)
23:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i really need this "scrollto xy" on clicking a sign, to debug this thing
23:44:14 <TrueBrain> use the arrows
23:44:20 <TrueBrain> owh, that
23:44:21 <TrueBrain> lol
23:44:23 <TrueBrain> nevermind :D
23:44:26 <TrueBrain> well, with clever signs you can do it
23:44:44 <TrueBrain> but it will be a pita ...
23:44:49 <TrueBrain> hack the client or something?
23:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling placing signs is taking longer than calculating the triangulation
23:45:27 <TrueBrain> 1 sign per tick
23:45:29 <TrueBrain> so you might be right
23:45:37 <TrueBrain> make sure youhave AIs set to fastest
23:45:41 <TrueBrain> else it takes even longer :)
23:45:56 <TrueBrain> signs are a very slow way to debug :)
23:46:31 <TrueBrain> even slower would be to build roads between the towns you connect :P
23:46:35 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should sort the neighbours by polar coordinates
23:47:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: that kills my idea to place a sign on each border tile :p
23:47:18 <TrueBrain> hmm
23:47:25 <TrueBrain> you remind me I still want a patch that shows towns influence
23:47:31 <TrueBrain> those radius towns have you know
23:47:39 <TrueBrain> a highlight around tiles to which a town belongs
23:47:51 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: afair there was a tile highlighting patch that does something like this
23:48:04 <TrueBrain> I know there have been for stations
23:48:06 <TrueBrain> as I miss it there too
23:48:12 <TrueBrain> but they are all fuck-slow, as far as I remember :)
23:49:38 <Eddi|zuHause> so... polar coordinates... do we have sin/cos/tan functions? :)
23:50:04 <TrueBrain> not that I know of .. same as a sqrt function :P
23:50:27 <TrueBrain> there is no need for an AI to use them, so having them only makes people use them who don't know shit about not to use them :D But they might have been added in the last 2 years :P
23:50:39 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i can program a sqrt function by heron's method :)
23:50:44 <TrueBrain> many did :)
23:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> but since i only want to compare, i think i might get along without sin/cos stuf
23:51:35 <TrueBrain> which is the conclusion many often make after finding the lack of those functions :D
23:51:37 <TrueBrain> hihihihi
23:51:44 <TrueBrain> I am off to bed; night, and good luck Eddi|zuHause :)
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23:56:31 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: AIs have sqrt/sin/cos/etc. but they takes 100 opcodes to call
23:57:02 <Yexo> same goes for NoGo scripts, since it's squirrel functionality
23:57:24 <Xaroth> expensive :o
23:58:14 <Yexo> that's the point :)
23:59:23 <Eddi|zuHause> other thing, when i use GSList.Begin/Next, what is the most elegant way to get the item/value pair?