IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-26
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00:47:26 <Wolf01> 'night
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01:07:39 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lol, nice piece of code :) In which complexity is this?
01:08:52 <TrueBrain> somewhere between O(n) and O(n**2) by a quick look .. you should test it, and see how fast it is :)
01:14:52 <TrueBrain> seems to be really close to O(n); would be nice to have it in working order. Would speed up many scripts :D
01:15:41 <TrueBrain> for sure it should beat Zuu's O(n**2) implementation :D:D Hihihi :)
01:15:48 <Eddi|zuHause> in theory this has O(n*log(n)), but i haven't done all possible optimisations, so could be O(n^2) in the worst case
01:16:04 <TrueBrain> I don't see how it could be O(n**2)?
01:16:32 <TrueBrain> from what I read, it scales linear .. I don't see any additional for that scales with n?
01:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> the Flip-recursion could in the worst case loop through all triangles
01:17:07 <TrueBrain> AH! Each projection can insert 2 ne wprojections
01:17:17 <TrueBrain> I was looking for something like that, and failed to find :D
01:17:42 <TrueBrain> well, then it would really depend on how much opcodes all the other stuff consumes :D
01:17:50 <TrueBrain> although I am willing to consider adding this to the C++ side
01:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> like i said, there's lots of room for optimizations
01:18:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but i first wanted to try if it's actually correct :)
01:18:22 <TrueBrain> you also have to optimize within the domain of Squirrel; some stuff takes longer than other stuff :)
01:18:39 <TrueBrain> but I see use for this in both GS, AI, but also cargodist
01:20:07 <TrueBrain> so yeah, please do make it in working order and benchmark it against the greedy algorithm of Zuu :)
01:20:38 <TrueBrain> <- see info.nut.txt and main.nut.txt how to make a (simple) workable GS, but you could also try it for AIs ;)
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01:27:21 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: for testing, it'd be nice if i had a basic script that can place a sign (or more) into each town
01:27:39 <TrueBrain> script above does that
01:27:43 <TrueBrain> it reads something funny
01:27:46 <TrueBrain> cannot remember what it is :P
01:28:05 <TrueBrain> just strip out the rest, and you have yourself a nice test script
01:28:35 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, i'll look at this tomorrow-ish
01:29:54 <TrueBrain> cool :)
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03:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> "pope sued for not wearing a belt, faces possible fine of 30€" ... some people have nothing better to do i suppose
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07:56:07 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:00:19 <andythenorth> morgen
08:00:52 <Rubidium> vandaag ;)
08:03:48 <planetmaker> moin
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08:32:15 <andythenorth> drive-in road stops for trucks - does it matter if I prevent HEQS from being compatible with them?
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08:40:29 <planetmaker> complete heqs?
08:40:33 <planetmaker> would be quite sad
08:40:59 <andythenorth> mostly the mog?
08:41:03 <andythenorth> or also the mining trucks?
08:41:04 <planetmaker> esp. as the drive-in stops use less space for small stations
08:41:24 <planetmaker> why would you make them articualted?
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08:53:45 <andythenorth> refittable trailers
08:54:10 <planetmaker> tbh, I hate it, if vehicles can only use dtrs
08:54:30 <planetmaker> those have lots less value for my playing style
08:54:43 <andythenorth> ok
08:55:05 * andythenorth wonders what auto-refit does with subtypes?
08:55:08 <planetmaker> but I also think that it would need just articulated rv use the drive-in ones ;-)
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08:59:42 * andythenorth presumes auto-refit will use first subtype
08:59:45 * Terkhen only uses dtrs
09:00:09 * andythenorth is plotting HEQS 2
09:00:15 <andythenorth> which will rework some things
09:01:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: imho egrvts does it correctly. It offers both types of RV: articulated and non-articulated
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09:01:33 <planetmaker> with a tendency that the trailer RV carry a bit more
09:02:00 <andythenorth> which is worse? Long buy menu, or long refit list?
09:02:11 <Terkhen> that's easy in egrvts because all road vehicles are standard-ish
09:02:16 <Terkhen> andythenorth: long buy menu
09:02:21 <andythenorth> bah
09:02:27 <andythenorth> I thought you'd vote the other way :P
09:02:48 <Terkhen> the refits are sorted in an easy way
09:02:58 <Terkhen> and you don't need to change it
09:03:19 <andythenorth> I could remove 6 vehicles from HEQS by making the trailer / non-trailer versions a refit
09:03:20 <Terkhen> in the buy menu, you need to change the sorting
09:03:28 <Terkhen> to find whatever you are looking for in an easy way
09:03:42 <Terkhen> "I want something powerful", "I want something big", "I want a small truck" and so on
09:03:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth: but then the refittable ones would not go to drive-in anymore
09:03:59 <planetmaker> thus indeed: both
09:04:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: hence my question...
09:04:36 <andythenorth> and tbh, I think 'coal, no trailer', 'coal 1 trailer', 'coal 2 trailers', 'coal 3 trailers' clutters the refit menu
09:05:05 <Terkhen> it does, but I prefer to keep the clutter in the refit menu which is less cluttered than the buy menu :)
09:05:36 <andythenorth> hmm
09:05:45 <andythenorth> trams building for PAX by default, that's wrong :o
09:06:04 <Terkhen> HEQS has PAX trams?
09:06:08 <andythenorth> nope
09:06:13 <andythenorth> current nightly appears to :P
09:06:16 <andythenorth> this is incorrect
09:08:06 * andythenorth is planning to extend tram-style length refits to most HEQS vehicles
09:08:20 <andythenorth> but not ones where planetmaker wants drive-in stops :P
09:25:22 <andythenorth> hmm
09:25:28 <andythenorth> auto-refit appears to fail for me
09:25:32 <andythenorth> trams, with subtypes
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09:28:06 <andythenorth> refit flag is set, route menu allows refit
09:28:16 <andythenorth> refit cost is £0 for all vehicles in consist
09:28:19 <andythenorth> cargo is waiting
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09:31:32 <andythenorth> checkout HEQS tip if you wish to verify...
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09:37:34 <andythenorth> bbl
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09:39:00 <Alberth> bye andy
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09:54:57 <peter1138> TrueBrain, i saw an interesting landscape generation algorithm that used delaunay...
09:59:07 <planetmaker> have all a nice weekend :)
09:59:58 <peter1138> morning. you off, or just greeting everyone? :p
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10:51:17 <Wolf01> hello
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10:55:42 <Alberth> hello
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11:48:49 * andythenorth proposes registers for tiles that contain a route :P
11:48:57 <andythenorth> e.g. a tile with a railtype on or such
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12:08:01 <peter1138> do what?
12:08:35 <peter1138> registers... for tiles which contain road/rail/water?
12:08:49 <peter1138> how big do you want the map array?
12:09:35 <Rubidium> 640kB should be enough
12:10:39 <guru3> famous last words
12:13:43 * andythenorth thinks 8GB is a reasonable min. requirement for ottd
12:13:50 <andythenorth> so how many registers can we have :P
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12:20:14 <andythenorth> quak
12:20:26 <frosch123> moin
12:23:12 <Alberth> andythenorth: you should write NoAI scripts, it gives you full access to tiles :)
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12:32:45 <andythenorth> I think vastly increasing the map size is worth it, to add snowploughs :P
12:32:52 <andythenorth> and maintenance vehicles
12:38:53 <Alberth> but toyland has no snow :)
12:39:13 <andythenorth> sugar drifts
12:49:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23330 /trunk/src/rail_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4853] (r23316): alignment of signals in the signals menu was incorrect
12:53:06 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23331 /trunk/src/company_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4851] (rCS, r148): abort building/moving HQ when clicking on the button again, just like when building rail, stations, etc (sbr)
13:01:05 <frosch123> hmm, it's 14:00, but the daylight feels like 17:00
13:09:13 <andythenorth> try playing TTD
13:09:25 <andythenorth> it's always 14.00 in TTD :P
13:14:14 <TrueBrain> welcome to the winter time frosch123 :)
13:14:38 <andythenorth> frosch123 must be playing arctic :P
13:14:49 <andythenorth> we should all play tropical in November :P
13:15:04 * andythenorth used to go to India for November
13:15:12 <andythenorth> but not since the baby
13:30:54 <appe> :D
13:30:59 <peter1138> don't forget that 4:30 is in the top right...
13:32:01 <andythenorth> hmm
13:32:05 <andythenorth> sun rises in the east
13:32:15 <andythenorth> my brain fell out of my head for a bit :P
13:32:24 <andythenorth> so it's about 10.45 in TTD land
13:36:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23332 /trunk/src/blitter/8bpp_optimized.cpp: -Fix (r23316): Length of transparent pixels could exceed a byte. (frosch)
13:37:26 <andythenorth> hmm
13:37:38 <andythenorth> I thought I fixed auto-refit for trams, but I haven't :(
13:38:54 <appe> fun fact; "trams" is swedish for "sir, you speak utter rubbish, and we didnt bother listening to you anymore".
13:39:53 <andythenorth> so...
13:40:06 <andythenorth> the articulated trams go to a station with cargo waiting, and don't refit
13:40:12 <appe> ask Markk. he is full of trams.
13:40:26 <andythenorth> all vehicles have special flag enabled for auto-refit, and have refit cost 0
13:41:30 <andythenorth> non-articulated trams go to the station, refit, but don't load
13:48:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23333 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix [FS#4854]: Make zoomed in screenshot use the selected maximum zoom.
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14:46:05 <Markk> appe: eh-he-he
14:48:15 <__ln__>
14:51:08 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23334 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4820]: Road vehicle purchase info failed to display vehicles carrying no cargo. (Can only happen when NewGRFs are screwed up.)
14:52:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23335 /trunk/src/build_vehicle_gui.cpp: -Change: Make determination of vehicle weight when loaded consistent between road and rail vehicle purchase info.
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16:09:27 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23336 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix [FS#4709]: bring some more order in the ordering of the windows, e.g. don't let a save or load dialog get hidden by a new message (monoid)
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16:14:25 <peter1138> oh FIRS, why do you tease me so?
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16:15:02 <peter1138> andythenorth, ^^ oh FIRS, why do you tease me so?
16:15:15 <peter1138> you need a spec for smoke ;(
16:15:37 <Rubidium> peter1138: it's getting out of the wrong places, e.g. your ears?
16:15:55 <peter1138> it's getting out of the bounding boxes, certainly
16:16:28 <peter1138> hmm, would anyone create 8bpp ez sprites...?
16:17:10 <Rubidium> Sir Zephyris?
16:17:35 <peter1138> see, i tend to think that if you're going to the effort of EZ, you might as well use 32bpp
16:21:27 <Rubidium> well, 32bpp (ez) is mostly bickering about getting longer vehicles, smoother curves and the likes. It's also more complex with recolouring than "simple" 8bpp sprites
16:21:56 <peter1138> CETS has longer vehicles :D
16:23:35 <Rubidium> maybe make a grand post saying that OpenTTD now supports vehicles that are 4 times longer out-of-the-box
16:26:16 <peter1138> heh
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16:40:11 <michi_cc> peter1138: CETS vehicles as real 2x zoom sprites... tasty :) I don't think they would need 32 bpp.
17:11:51 <Elukka>
17:11:55 <Elukka> CETS vehicle length magic is lovely
17:12:02 <Elukka> i really need to get around to drawing more stuff
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17:18:40 <frosch123> omg... now they measure and stream the pulse of the players in esports :p
17:18:53 <Xaroth> o_O
17:20:16 <Alberth> ensuring you get a proper workout :)
17:23:57 <peter1138> Elukka, i fear the sprites are a bit big :S
17:24:07 <peter1138> there are glitches with bridges :(
17:24:33 <Elukka> i think that's a downside inherent to the longer vehicles
17:25:18 <peter1138> in theory you could have them made up from parts
17:25:25 <peter1138> more work to split up though
17:25:51 <peter1138> plus you need special handling for slopes
17:28:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23337 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix [FS#4826]: don't send chat messages to clients that haven't joined yet
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17:34:53 <Nite> Hi
17:35:01 <Nite> any ecs nerds here?
17:35:30 <George> Nite: ?
17:36:05 <Nite> Hi, how to make ecs to place less iondustreis on the map?
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17:37:13 <andythenorth> peter1138: I won't make 8bpp EZ
17:37:22 <andythenorth> or if I did, I'd do it with a photoshop batch :P
17:37:41 <George>
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17:38:26 <George> Nite: or do you mean how to have less industry types?
17:39:12 <Elukka> what's EZ?
17:39:33 <andythenorth> Elukka: try an ottd nightly and find out :)
17:39:44 <George> if the second see
17:40:19 <George> In general - you can use only several vectors in one game, not all of them
17:41:13 <Elukka> holy crap
17:41:15 <Elukka> zooom
17:41:21 <Elukka> awesome
17:41:29 <Elukka> i've been hoping since forever that that'd make it to trunk
17:43:05 <andythenorth> it's good for my eyes
17:48:21 <Eddi|zuHause> anybody seen my mouse?
17:48:30 <Alberth> ask your cat :)
17:48:49 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: it is on the shelve, where you left it
17:50:21 <Elukka> where did most of the locomotives in CETS go?
17:51:20 <Nite> it cleared up ty
17:51:55 <Nite> and you can use all of the vectors all time
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17:53:05 <Elukka>
17:53:06 <Elukka> EZ is the best thing
17:53:19 <TrueBrain> better than sex?!
17:53:34 <Elukka> hmm.
17:53:58 <__ln__> "insufficient data"
17:53:59 <Elukka> tough one
17:54:04 <Elukka> haha
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17:56:23 <andythenorth> Elukka: all it needs now is a pixel editor in game...
17:56:24 <Eddi|zuHause> how far is grfv8 support for nml?
17:57:14 <andythenorth> who will have the first v8 grf?
17:57:15 <andythenorth> :P
17:57:24 <peter1138> in game pixel editor... o_O
17:57:40 <peter1138> useless :S
17:57:45 <frosch123> add you own skins to your engines? :p
17:57:53 <frosch123> normal for modern games :p
17:58:16 <frosch123> take a look at skyrim character creation
17:58:23 <frosch123> tons of options with no particular use
17:58:31 <andythenorth> peter1138: in game pixel editor && save sprite to png
17:58:49 <frosch123> though i guess no game can beat the opening of outpost 1 ....
17:59:06 <Alberth> :)
17:59:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: save as newgrf, of course
17:59:23 <Elukka> yeah but character creation in an rpg isn't really development or modding
17:59:40 <andythenorth> Alberth: nfo editor in game :P
17:59:46 <andythenorth> might be...crashy
18:00:58 <frosch123> yeah, players first have to type in the hexcodes for the production callback before industries produce something :p
18:01:26 <frosch123> dongleware :p
18:01:36 <andythenorth> no no, the GS does that for them :P
18:01:37 <andythenorth> p
18:01:42 <andythenorth> cracked dongleware
18:02:31 <Alberth> in one of the first computers you had to enter the bootstrap code with hardware switches :p
18:03:06 <frosch123> switches?
18:03:28 <frosch123> or just bridging with some cables?
18:03:37 <andythenorth> hmm
18:03:54 <andythenorth> peter1138: wrt FIRS smoke - it's my own fault for trying to draw outside of the bounding box
18:04:02 <frosch123> s/cables/wires/
18:04:07 <andythenorth> I should fix it by redrawing the industries + moving the chimneys
18:04:13 <andythenorth> but that's an arse
18:04:24 <frosch123> just make the bb bigger?
18:04:33 <andythenorth> it's out of the tile
18:04:39 <andythenorth> afaik I can't go much bigger?
18:04:57 <frosch123> ah, outside of the tile to left/right
18:05:04 <frosch123> yeah, that needs resplitting
18:05:51 <andythenorth> it's using a TTD base sprite
18:06:03 <andythenorth> [or opengfx]
18:06:04 <andythenorth> I don't fancy drawing smoke much
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18:06:18 <andythenorth> without effect vehicles, there's no fix
18:06:28 <andythenorth> other than moving the chimneys....
18:07:15 <peter1138> yeah, it's completely outside the industry ground, so splitting won't help
18:07:24 <peter1138> hence the need for the effect vehicle specs :)
18:09:41 <frosch123> why effect vehicle? that makes no sense
18:09:49 <frosch123> you can add multiple sprites to a tilelayout
18:09:58 <frosch123> and bb do not need to be at the bottom
18:10:14 * andythenorth visits wiki
18:10:16 <frosch123> just move them higher if you need to
18:10:37 <andythenorth> my understanding is you can't extend beyond l/r tile border?
18:10:55 <frosch123> which industry are you talking about?
18:11:10 <peter1138> frosch123, standard coal plant uses effect vehicles
18:11:14 <peter1138> for this very reason
18:11:34 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23338 /trunk/src/ (rail_cmd.cpp rail_gui.cpp): -Feature [FS#4841]: diagonal dragging the rail conversion tool when pressing CTRL
18:11:43 <peter1138> the sprite is too far away from the ground tile to be picked up when drawing the area the smoke covers
18:11:58 <TrueBrain> <3 Rubidium
18:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, this reminds me of a suggestion: in the sprite aligner, it would be useful to see the difference in offset wrt the "original"
18:12:19 <Xaroth> Rubidium: <3 <3 <3
18:12:37 <andythenorth> hmm
18:12:47 <andythenorth> we're still linking this from the newgrf wiki ;/
18:12:48 <andythenorth>
18:12:55 <andythenorth> here
18:14:58 <frosch123> ah, it extents to the right
18:17:41 <andythenorth> can I remove the link to Purno's tutorial from the wiki? please?
18:18:39 <z-MaTRiX> hey
18:19:18 <peter1138> heh
18:19:33 <peter1138> it's a wiki ;P
18:19:54 <peter1138> make a better tutorial
18:19:58 <peter1138> even put it on the wiki
18:20:11 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138> in theory you could have them made up from parts <peter1138> plus you need special handling for slopes <-- that's already (partially) implemented
18:20:39 <__ln__> what will happen to Tegel once they close it down?
18:21:37 <Eddi|zuHause> although, only for the 10lu passenger wagons which have "real" graphics. not any of the green-box-dummy-vehicles
18:21:38 <peter1138> a new circuit for topgear
18:22:18 <Eddi|zuHause> the current problem is that i need a dynamic offset-correction for the slices
18:22:32 <andythenorth> hmm
18:22:42 <andythenorth> the bunfight about GS started then
18:22:49 <andythenorth> w.r.t newgrf etc
18:27:01 * andythenorth is placing bet on "GS can't do very much to newgrf stuff"
18:27:23 <andythenorth> I did have lots of ideas for interesting gameplay by allowing GS to over-ride newgrf props
18:27:30 <andythenorth> but there are too many edge cases
18:28:01 <andythenorth> lots of newgrfs are very intricate, and it's not as simple as just changing a date or a capacity
18:29:02 <andythenorth> e.g. there are good gameplay reasons to change a vehicles cost or such in action 0, but GS has no idea what cb36 might also be doing
18:30:21 <peter1138> heh, collective pronoun for bankers: a wunch
18:30:25 <frosch123> andythenorth: you are too stuck in newgrfs :p there is no point in gs modifying the costs for single vehicles; but they could change the costmultilpiers to affect the cost of all vehicles
18:30:39 <andythenorth> frosch123: yup
18:30:54 <peter1138> mb would go mad :D
18:31:31 <frosch123> bool GSInfo::AllowMBGrfs()
18:31:40 <frosch123> { return false; }
18:32:40 <Alberth> doesn't it miss 'final' ? :p
18:33:00 <frosch123> :p
18:35:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: I am too stuck in how railroad tycoon scenarios worked :P
18:36:07 <andythenorth> things like making one engine especially cheap in a scenario, due to 'a deal with the manufacturer' etc
18:36:36 <frosch123> i only know rt1, and i cannot remember scenarios in it
18:37:09 <frosch123> the engine quiz was nice at start
18:39:35 <andythenorth> GS might also want to control which vehicles are available. That's plausible, as long as the GS author is careful
18:40:02 <frosch123> i doubt they want that :p
18:40:09 <andythenorth> depends who they are
18:40:17 <andythenorth> and what the idea is
18:40:55 <frosch123> ttd is not suitable for scenarios like: transport 100 ton of coal from a to b within 3 months
18:41:07 <andythenorth> how do you know? :D
18:41:08 <frosch123> at least i would consider that pretty stupid :p
18:41:29 <frosch123> win condition: build two trains :p
18:41:51 <Alberth> vehicle availability control seems to be detailed to me
18:42:06 <andythenorth> over-ride the climate availability
18:42:18 <andythenorth> and cross your fingers that it's not part of an articulated vehicle or such :P
18:42:31 <Alberth> frosch123: have 3 trains using the same 10 tiles of track without colliding for 3 months :p
18:42:36 <andythenorth> and that the GS doesn't turn *off* availability during game
18:42:59 <andythenorth> there are too many easily-hit edge cases to give GS unlimited control
18:43:09 <andythenorth> they're barely edge cases, more like common cases :)
18:43:23 <andythenorth> although it would be nice if it was possible :)
18:43:49 <frosch123> Alberth: yeah, even better :)
18:44:24 <andythenorth> transport 1m tonnes between A and B in 30 years, but in between A and B, are four towns, each of which will prevent you building until you've achieved their needs
18:44:27 <Alberth> andythenorth: sounds like you want to control too detailed items; in my view, the big gain is to get control of the overall world progress, imho
18:45:46 <andythenorth> Alberth: any GS is a win :)
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23339 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt italian.txt korean.txt slovak.txt):
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 4 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 13 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: korean - 25 changes by junho2813
18:45:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: slovak - 33 changes by klingacik
18:46:03 <Alberth> :)
18:46:16 * andythenorth finds it helpful too see how far we could go, to find the limit
18:46:26 <andythenorth> already it's clear that:
18:46:47 <andythenorth> for the vast majority of newgrf action 0 props, or cb results, GS cannot touch them
18:47:11 <andythenorth> also GS are not a good way to try and influence the economy too much; town control and * dist are better
18:48:05 <andythenorth> also GS seem like they should be either tied to a set of specific newgrfs (and probably a scenario), or completely generic. Nothing half-way in between
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18:49:16 <Alberth> I must have missed the town control discussion, but yeah, I think you are right
18:49:46 <andythenorth> for example, GS is a bad way to try and affect cargo payments
18:50:15 <andythenorth> but GS could set values on a town, which affect cargo payments
18:50:33 * Alberth nods
18:50:35 <andythenorth> (or abuse subsidies for same effect)
18:51:11 <Alberth> I was thinking in the context of industries, have GS change the probability of certain industries
18:51:38 <andythenorth> that's possibly safe
18:51:44 <andythenorth> there are a limited number of safe properties
18:51:53 <andythenorth> for industries it's quite blurred exactly which are wise
18:52:37 <andythenorth> rather than adjust probability, it might be better to make cost of funding industry £0 for GS
18:52:44 <andythenorth> and let it build wherever
18:53:01 <andythenorth> then give GS authors a library for randomising
18:53:09 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23340 /trunk/os/windows/installer/install.nsi: -Fix [FS#4824]: [Windows] A text in the installer was so long that NSIS didn't display it right anymore
18:53:31 <Alberth> squirrel probably already has some random thingie
18:53:38 <andythenorth> I can think of lots of reasons to allow GS to adjust action 0 props or similar
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18:53:49 <andythenorth> then I think of all the unwanted interactions and confusions
18:54:01 <andythenorth> and the 'you changed your grf, now my GS broke'
18:54:20 <andythenorth> give the GS god powers, and make it behave like a scenario author....
18:54:39 <Alberth> for now, I think that the gs author should assume a better newgrf in such cases
18:54:58 <andythenorth> my solution above demands a lot more from GS authors :( They have to write a lot more code
18:55:20 <Alberth> and it makes things very complicated
18:58:49 <andythenorth> for the GS author maybe
18:59:15 <andythenorth> FIRS scenario mode was envisaged for this kind of thing :)
18:59:26 <andythenorth> game script rather than goal script...
18:59:33 <andythenorth> [in my brain]
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19:11:19 <andythenorth> there is one industry case that I can't figure out
19:11:32 <andythenorth> should a GS be able to set initial production multiplier on construction?
19:13:27 <Alberth> sounds mostly as a difficulty setting to me, or not?
19:13:41 <andythenorth> not sure
19:14:03 <andythenorth> I can imagine uses for it
19:14:26 <andythenorth> but I don't think the GS will have enough hooks to make it worthwhile
19:14:48 <andythenorth> it more raises the question that the game can't set initial production multiplier for a newgrf
19:15:35 <andythenorth> it would be a big shortcut for me if I could set a flag saying 'let game set prod. multiplier to random amount on construction'
19:15:49 <Alberth> a newgrf parameter :)
19:16:30 <andythenorth> ever noticed in FIRS all industries of same type produce same amount when built?
19:16:33 <andythenorth> it can be solved
19:17:08 <andythenorth> frosch told me the newgrf solution
19:18:50 <Alberth> I didn't notice; I tend to connect them to my network at different dates :)
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19:21:10 <frosch123> i want gs to turn ottd into a lemming game
19:21:25 <frosch123> bring 50/100 rv save across the level crossing
19:21:35 <andythenorth> as in pysgnosis lemmings?
19:21:36 <andythenorth> :)
19:21:44 <andythenorth> many wasted hours
19:21:54 <andythenorth> why doesn't ottd include a thermonuclear weapon?
19:21:58 <andythenorth> for a game that's going badly
19:22:14 <andythenorth> just extend a disaster :P
19:22:23 <Alberth> not family friendly
19:24:10 <andythenorth> plane crashes are family friendly?
19:24:13 <andythenorth> ufos?
19:24:18 <andythenorth> mining subsidence?
19:24:19 <andythenorth> :D
19:24:30 <andythenorth> hmm
19:24:40 <andythenorth> does the dogfood principle apply to GS?
19:24:50 <Xaroth> dogfood principle?
19:24:55 <frosch123> [20:21] <andythenorth> why doesn't ottd include a thermonuclear weapon? <- it's more fun when you are close to reaching the goal. press it shortly before, and wonder whether enough make it in the following 5 seconds
19:25:13 <andythenorth> frosch123: that's the correct playing style :)
19:25:40 <Prof_Frink> The buttons don't work in wine :(
19:25:57 <Prof_Frink> Can use the keyboard to select actions, but not nuke.
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19:29:10 <andythenorth> Xaroth: as in 'eat your own'
19:29:14 <andythenorth> although I'm abusing it slightly
19:29:42 <andythenorth> it's used in many ways, but I recently saw it applied to APIs
19:30:24 <andythenorth> "don't eat people food, but give your developers dogfood" or such
19:30:54 <Alberth> you want to control a GS with GS ?
19:31:00 <andythenorth> nope :)
19:31:04 <andythenorth> in the case of GS....newgrfs have been written against an API which defines what ottd will / won't do
19:31:23 <andythenorth> GS should be able to modify the ottd side, but have no privileged access to change behaviour of newgrfs
19:31:48 <Alberth> Xaroth: practice what you preach
19:31:59 <andythenorth> the easiest example is some cb like production change cb, where returning 04 80 means 'do whatever ottd does'
19:32:17 <andythenorth> in which case GS would modify what ottd does, leaving the newgrf interface clean
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19:32:37 <andythenorth> at this point, newgrf has already delegated result to ottd anyway
19:33:32 * andythenorth thinks it should be 100% cast iron rule that GS have no privileged access to newgrf props or logic
19:33:38 <Alberth> that would be sane :)
19:33:53 <andythenorth> I haven't considered more than vehicle or industry newgrfs though :P
19:33:59 <andythenorth> stations - GS should have no opinion
19:34:07 <andythenorth> newgrf stations are irrelevant to GS
19:34:18 <andythenorth> unless you win by building grand central or such :P
19:34:37 * Alberth wonders about a 'realistic' goal :)
19:35:11 <andythenorth> railtypes - GS shouldn't care?
19:35:22 * Alberth thinks so
19:35:24 <andythenorth> or you win by building a certain type of rail track from A to B?
19:35:42 <andythenorth> or you get certain limited amounts of railtype 1, some amount of railtype 2?
19:36:13 <Alberth> it would not be my idea of a fun game
19:36:24 <andythenorth> limited track challenges are fun in RT3
19:36:36 <andythenorth> house sets...what could GS care about those?
19:36:37 <Alberth> yeah, I can see they might
19:37:09 <andythenorth> but even a limited track challenge is basically counting. it doesn't modify newgrf props
19:37:30 <andythenorth> anything to do with where houses go etc is the domain of the house set, or town control
19:37:40 <andythenorth> airports?
19:37:41 <Alberth> other than it should get the cargoes of the houses right, house set does not matter, I think
19:37:55 <andythenorth> a GS can crash planes?
19:38:17 <Alberth> move the airport a tile just before touchdown :p
19:38:27 <Alberth> but no, imho :)
19:39:03 <Alberth> they are just details to get stuff and things moved from A to B, that's the player problem, not GS
19:39:17 <andythenorth> newobjects?
19:39:23 <andythenorth> build / remove. but not change props
19:39:59 <Alberth> does not seem useful to me, tbh
19:40:31 <andythenorth> base costs?
19:40:57 <Alberth> no idea
19:42:00 <andythenorth> seems like if you want to tightly bind a GS to set of newgrfs, then you write some additional newgrfs of your own
19:42:03 <andythenorth> to do things like
19:42:17 <andythenorth> - make engine 'blah' available at a different date
19:42:26 <andythenorth> - change cargo payment rate for cargo 'foo'
19:42:32 <andythenorth> - change base costs for xyz
19:42:46 <andythenorth> and then you make sure the load order is correct
19:42:58 <andythenorth> i.e. use the existing APIs for doing such
19:43:44 <supermop> who is GS?
19:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> Gris Sawyer
19:46:19 <andythenorth> Geyser Söze
19:53:32 <andythenorth> when I post in the forums that I don't think GS should be able to modify newgrf, ten people will popup and accuse me of horrors and crimes :P
19:59:48 <Alberth> so don't post it :p
20:02:06 <frosch123> gs should modify newgrfs using action6 :p
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20:04:55 <andythenorth> gs should modify newgrfs using raw nfo
20:05:05 <andythenorth> monkey patching into sprite numbers :P
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20:10:47 <peter1138> hm
20:11:05 <peter1138> Born_Acorn! neweffectvehicles!
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20:18:07 <peter1138> hmm, what else
20:18:22 <peter1138> minecraft...
20:18:27 <peter1138> or coding... :p
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20:20:55 <andythenorth> T_Tycoon is trolling
20:20:59 <andythenorth> quite elegantly
20:22:03 <andythenorth> 'big turnning point'
20:22:07 <andythenorth> :D
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20:23:18 <peter1138> meh, it's just graphics
20:23:48 <andythenorth> that's what hindu philosophy says too
20:23:55 <andythenorth> maybe budhism, not sure
20:23:59 <peter1138> and a slightly different projection, heh
20:24:13 <andythenorth>
20:24:36 <peter1138> tl;dr
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20:25:16 <andythenorth> nvm
20:25:17 <andythenorth> cba
20:25:46 <andythenorth> also
20:25:47 <andythenorth> ViV?
20:27:15 <andythenorth> hrm
20:27:22 <andythenorth> my case that GS shouldn't modify newgrfs is bogus
20:27:27 <andythenorth> newgrfs can modify newgrfs
20:27:43 <andythenorth> therefore GS should be able to modify newgrfs
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20:28:02 <andythenorth> any other argument is logically flawed :(
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20:33:10 <andythenorth> bah
20:33:13 * andythenorth writes code
20:38:12 <TrueBrain> he, I am doing that too :)
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20:41:19 <andythenorth> what larks
20:41:27 <peter1138> LARKS!
20:41:37 <andythenorth> writing actual code is much easier than writing a monologue about possible code :D
20:42:27 * andythenorth pointlessly enables auto-refit for a vehicle with only one cargo type
20:42:28 <andythenorth> oops :P
20:42:59 <andythenorth> incidentally, does
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20:57:39 <andythenorth> action E is an abomination btw
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21:17:14 <Alberth> good night all
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21:59:41 <peter1138> i demand that cets be finished!
22:00:27 <andythenorth> you mean it isn't?
22:00:34 <andythenorth> why not? :o
22:01:01 <Rubidium> but... DNF XL 0.9 hasn't been released yet ;)
22:02:29 <peter1138> :)
22:03:51 <Rubidium> and probably won't be any time soon as now he (almost?) has to draw 2x, 4x, 1/2x, 1/4x, 1/8x graphics as well!
22:04:08 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: new NoGo release; you might want to upgrade :) Tons of new goodies :)
22:05:40 <peter1138> well
22:05:55 <peter1138> no, i'm not near doing that yet, heh
22:06:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: to quote MB when presented with that thought: "LOL"
22:07:08 *** sla_ro|master has quit IRC
22:07:40 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I always imagined there was just a big humming sound in MBs thoughts
22:08:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "insufficient data" :)
22:09:19 * andythenorth likes MB
22:09:22 * Rubidium just imagines him as a particular co-worker ;)
22:09:32 * andythenorth also likes going to sleep
22:12:26 <Rubidium> night andythenorth et al.
22:12:36 <andythenorth> good night
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22:28:57 <Terkhen> good night
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22:34:33 <Arkabzol> Hello.
22:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> err... how do i get the town from a TileIndex?
22:55:07 <__ln__>
22:56:32 <Elukka> i wish we had it in us to do something and go out and protest
22:57:27 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: Town::GetByTile() ?
22:57:29 <Eddi|zuHause> funny headline from today: "Commerzbank allows speculating on its own crash"
22:57:42 <SmatZ> :)
22:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i meant in AI/GS script
22:57:48 <SmatZ> oh...
22:58:12 <frosch> most likely in AITile
22:58:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there's AITile::GetClosestTown
22:58:24 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't know how efficient that is
22:59:07 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i need to drag the town index through my algorithm...
22:59:12 <frosch> it is efficient if called for house or road tiles
22:59:14 <glx> depends on tile type I think
22:59:34 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i am sure it's the center tile of the town :)
22:59:39 <frosch> though maybe only for town owned roads
22:59:45 <glx> then it's a road tile
23:05:09 <Eddi|zuHause> hmm... i can't reload the game script from the debug menu
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23:05:57 <frosch> highlight TrueBrain then :p
23:06:09 <glx> probably not implemented yet :)
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23:12:18 <TrueBrain> not even intended to be implemented
23:12:22 <TrueBrain> as it would make little sense :)
23:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> well... it's extremely annoying to weed out syntax errors if i have to restart openttd each time
23:14:55 <TrueBrain> just hit: restart
23:14:58 <TrueBrain> in the console
23:15:11 <TrueBrain> as that is kinda the only way to test a gamescript ..
23:15:16 <TrueBrain> maybe I should put that under the button :)
23:15:51 <Eddi|zuHause> the squirrel docs don't seem to have documentation about builtin array/table functions
23:21:03 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i write a number into GSLog?
23:21:48 <TrueBrain> "" + integer
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23:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> in AIList.Begin: "Returns: the item value of the first item." <-- either this is ambiguous or wrong. when i valuate the town list, i get the value "4" instead of the expected "126080"
23:42:36 <TrueBrain> remember the sorters
23:42:40 <TrueBrain> AIList is by default sorted
23:42:42 <TrueBrain> (by value)
23:43:06 <TrueBrain> if you want it sorted by insertion order, use a Squirrel array ;)
23:43:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i mean this seems to be returning the town-id, not the location.
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23:44:07 <Eddi|zuHause> list should be sorted by location
23:44:46 <TrueBrain> it returns the value of the variable 'item'
23:44:51 <TrueBrain> so it returns the key
23:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: then the wording is ambiguous
23:45:02 <TrueBrain> where list.GetValue(item) gives the value
23:45:08 <TrueBrain> not really ambigious
23:45:17 <Eddi|zuHause> well. i understood it the wrong way
23:45:24 <TrueBrain> at best you can be confused by 'the item value' being 'the value of the item'
23:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> that must mean it's ambiguous
23:46:08 <TrueBrain> I am afraid it is a case of: too much used to documentation where 'value' immediatly triggers you to a key => value situation
23:46:22 <Eddi|zuHause> "the index 'sign' does not exist" :(
23:47:09 <TrueBrain> sadly, there is no wording that is, in your terms, un'ambigous' for everyone
23:48:03 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i suggest "Returns: the 'item' value" (or item in italics)
23:48:25 <TrueBrain> make a patch :D
23:48:26 <TrueBrain> hihihihi :)
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23:49:15 <Eddi|zuHause> so... where do i get a sign-function from?
23:49:23 <TrueBrain> GSSign exists
23:50:30 <Eddi|zuHause> no
23:50:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean sign(-5) = -1
23:50:47 <TrueBrain> if (i < 0)
23:50:50 <TrueBrain> lolz
23:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> well, yeah... but that's less "beautiful" :)
23:52:28 <TrueBrain> make a request :)
23:52:33 <glx> just do x/abs(x)
23:52:45 <glx> should do what you want
23:52:50 <Eddi|zuHause> glx: because / is such a heavily quick operation :p
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