IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-24
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00:00:01 <TrueBrain> seriously considering renaming ....... must ... resist .....
00:00:07 <Zuu> But indeed, "Goal" is a bit silly if it grows out of just being about goals.
00:00:27 <Zuu> Now is the right moment to make changes while there is only a few scripts done.
00:00:28 <TrueBrain> from the ideas and suggestions I got so far, it will control the game, not set goals :P
00:01:25 <TrueBrain> (Tutorial for example :P)
00:02:19 <TrueBrain> and as name: NoGame
00:02:35 <TrueBrain> AI & Goal Scripts .. AI & Game Scripts ..
00:03:19 <Zuu> Another thing my parser/script is doing is to exclude sub libraries that are not suitable for NoGo. Otherwise it would need to inline the road path finder as well.
01:29:34 <Eddi|zuHause> bäääh... i think we need to revoke oberhümers commit rights...
01:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> 11 commits, most of them garbage...
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08:30:41 <dihedral> Interesting commits going on lately
08:31:04 <dihedral> TrueBrain, nice to see your activity again ;-)
08:58:41 <peter1138> i reckon we could get EZ by this evening :D
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09:38:15 <peter1138> hmm, quiet this morning
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09:45:37 <TomyLobo> what does that mean?
09:56:41 <peter1138> TomyLobo, in arctic/tropic you may or may not have to send food to them for them to grow
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11:27:23 <Eddi|zuHause> where's orudge when the forum is down all day?
11:27:36 <andythenorth> busy working on it, and not hanging out here? :P
11:31:17 <orudge> hence the message on the forums
11:31:21 <orudge> in theory, they should be up within half an hour
11:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the only message i get is a 404
11:31:47 <orudge> go to www.tt-forums.net then
11:31:53 <orudge> I didn't bother setting up the message for any request
11:31:56 <orudge> because of, well, effort
11:31:59 <orudge> I suppose I could set it as the 404 page though
11:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i got a 503 or something earlier this morning
11:34:05 <orudge> that was before I put the message up
11:34:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i wasn't paying too much attention... because it was early morning...
11:45:56 <orudge> Forums should be back up
11:46:43 <peter1138> cool, should be lots of posts to read ;)
11:49:44 * andythenorth has been missing out on lots of discussion :(
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12:08:46 <Celestar> what's this with people sending about endless mail chains ffs
12:09:17 <Sacro> peter1138 likes endless male chains
12:10:36 <Rubidium> Celestar: then you haven't trained those who email you well enough
12:18:27 <andythenorth> threaded view, delete
12:20:16 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23314 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 4 dirs): -Add: Add settings to restrict viewport zoom levels.
12:24:24 <Celestar> andythenorth: the problem is that it comes as ONE mail.
12:24:49 <Celestar> andythenorth: subject: RE: RE: Re: RE: Aw: Re: AW: Re: RE: AW: Re: Re: <actual subject>
12:25:08 <Celestar> and then you dig through the one mail trying to determine wtf they are on about
12:26:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23315 /trunk/src/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Only encode sprites for zoom levels that will be used.
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12:38:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23316 /trunk/src/ (29 files in 5 dirs): -Feature: Add ability to zoom in to 2x and 4x level.
12:40:31 <peter1138> you, er, might wanna increase your spritecache size
12:40:43 <Celestar> are the sprites bigger now? :P
12:42:45 <Celestar> sprite_cache_size is in MB?
12:42:56 <peter1138> default was 4, not 64
12:43:18 <peter1138> you can disable the zooming in, in which case it's not needed
12:43:31 <peter1138> i'll probably stick to 2x max myself
12:44:08 <Rubidium> I think we should increase that default in configs in some way, otherwise it's going to give a lot of "openttd is slow" bug reports with 1.2.0-beta1 and later :(
12:44:53 <Celestar> is OpenGFX getting new graphics?
12:48:12 <andythenorth> Celestar: just ignore mails. If it's important, some one phones you...
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15:00:48 <planetmaker> Celestar, probably will get additions. But as things are, I'd not assume it'll be quickly
15:01:19 <planetmaker> thus it's good the upscaling works for my taste quite well :-)
15:01:35 <planetmaker> But I guess I'll start adding zoomed-in sprites once we can do that
15:07:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how does EZ perform on your mac?
15:07:36 * andythenorth has much sadface
15:08:19 <andythenorth> only the intro screen seems to be affected
15:08:41 <andythenorth> with 4x zoom enabled (but not zoomed), there is significant cursor lag on the intro screen
15:08:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, change your cfg
15:08:52 <peter1138> increase sprite cache size
15:08:58 <planetmaker> <planetmaker> sprite_cache_size = 64
15:09:06 <planetmaker> then it performs very well
15:09:14 <andythenorth> interestingly it's fine on a 512x512 map with *no* vehicles
15:09:34 <peter1138> sprites are loaded as needed, so...
15:10:12 <planetmaker> andythenorth, first quit openttd, then edit the cfg :-)
15:10:39 <andythenorth> well that's nice
15:10:41 <peter1138> Celestar, i need paxdest
15:10:51 <planetmaker> I very much like the 2x zoom, andythenorth :-)
15:10:52 <andythenorth> maybe people will draw the lighting correctly now :D
15:10:56 <planetmaker> it feels (to me) very natural
15:11:10 <andythenorth> don't look too closely at FIRS sprites though :P
15:12:39 <peter1138> good job it came after michi_cc's shorter vehicles fix :)
15:12:47 <planetmaker> And: too late, andythenorth, I did :-P
15:12:53 <planetmaker> yesterday even ;-)
15:19:46 <peter1138> all the little people on MB's stations are suddenly big :p
15:24:04 <planetmaker> I dropped a small hint to grab todays nightly in the German forums... let's see how they'll react :-)
15:24:44 <planetmaker> You might want to put up a hint here, too - along with the advise to adjust the sprite_cache
15:25:36 <peter1138> just need to change the setting name
15:26:23 <peter1138> the vehicle windows look tiny now :p
15:27:31 <michi_cc> peter1138: max_sprite_cache_size (no need to tell anybody we always allocate the max :)
15:28:42 <peter1138> interesting idea thoug
15:29:07 <peter1138> if (spritecachefull) resizeit
15:29:50 <peter1138> would need a lot of pointers updating
15:32:40 <peter1138> . o O ( YAIM / YACD / YAMA / YANO )
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15:52:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Not Another Russian Patchpack?
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15:54:33 <planetmaker> New Asteroid Ressource Programme
15:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if on eath metal ressources are typically found near tectonic fault lines, why would one assume that metals can be found on asteroids? or on mars?
16:02:26 <planetmaker> I'm not sure that your assumption is correct in the first place. And it might be interesting to note that there are differenciated and undifferenciated asteroids
16:02:52 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23317 /trunk/src/table/misc_settings.ini: -Change: Rename sprite_cache_size setting so that the new default is used.
16:03:04 <planetmaker> in the latter you might have rather pristine abundance of all non-refactory elements. Thus the metal contents is higher than on the average non-magmatic stuff
16:03:45 <planetmaker> on Earth. And for the differenciated, you might find some which broke up, thus you might find even more or less metal-enriched bodies
16:04:04 <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 34999 sprites are loaded
16:07:45 <planetmaker> that's not so surprising
16:07:54 <planetmaker> like 6k from the base set already. Always
16:08:13 <planetmaker> hm... or 10k? Not sure currently
16:08:28 <planetmaker> it's already >4k in trg1r.grf
16:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> how much if you load CETS? :)
16:09:09 <peter1138> hm, i misremember :p
16:09:15 <peter1138> anyway, there was that 16k limit
16:09:37 <Eddi|zuHause> goes it throw out limitation?
16:09:41 <planetmaker> anymore. Dunno for how long :-)
16:10:01 <peter1138> i fixed that with my bare hands
16:10:36 <peter1138> ooh, new version of CETS :D
16:11:31 <planetmaker> I hope you didn't dirty your hands too much ;-)
16:11:35 <peter1138> dbg: [sprite] LoadNewGRF: Currently 60588 sprites are loaded
16:11:45 <peter1138> planetmaker, it was a huge patch :)
16:11:57 <peter1138> masses of tables needed reworking
16:12:25 <peter1138> so yes, 25000+ sprites in cets
16:12:28 <planetmaker> it was also a huge gain :-)
16:12:30 <peter1138> and it's not even usable
16:19:22 <peter1138> bit out of place alongside ukrs2 though
16:19:54 <peter1138> due to 1) awesomely long wagons 2) no running sounds (yet?)
16:40:56 <Pinkbeast> On the other hand UKRS2 really needs _some_ extra set to patch some of the holes
16:45:13 <peter1138> i don't think CETS is there yet ;)
17:04:31 <peter1138> i have no CETS wagon for wood :(
17:05:49 <peter1138> just had a stupid idea for that detailed purchase list sprite
17:06:13 <peter1138> allow the image to be rotated and zoomed
17:06:31 <andythenorth> annoying rotator widget?
17:06:38 <peter1138> but won't work for those newgrfs that have just a west sprite for the there :S
17:06:51 <peter1138> except, unlike a flash applet, it won't take a minute to download all the images
17:06:56 <andythenorth> ha, mine are mostly west only :P
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17:07:26 <andythenorth> purchase list sometimes misses 'extra information for nerds'
17:07:35 <peter1138> welshdragon, you have eyesight issues don't you?
17:07:39 <andythenorth> like which newgrf the vehicle is from, loading speed etc
17:09:19 <peter1138> oh dear, train stuck at 1mph is ... noisy
17:09:39 <peter1138> maybe i should tone down my freightweight
17:15:19 <Zuu> peter1138: Just show west image if the NewGRF doesn't contain rotatable images. I'm sure they will start to provide more images if the feature is added.
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17:15:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23318 /trunk/src/texteff.cpp: -Change: Make text effects rise at their previous speed.
17:16:07 <peter1138> Zuu, the images are there, just... empty :p
17:16:44 <Zuu> Oh, so you need to check if the pixels are transparent upon loading ad set a "empty" flag :-)
17:17:19 <peter1138> they're not loaded until they're drawn ;)
17:17:48 <Zuu> but after they have been drawn once, aren't they cached then?
17:19:14 <andythenorth> due to the action 2 chain, there's no sane way to predict what sprites a vehicle might show for buy menu
17:19:30 <andythenorth> for any vehicle, it's deterministic, but there are so many approaches to providing buy menu sprites
17:19:43 <andythenorth> actually, it's not deterministic if I use random bits :P
17:19:49 <andythenorth> which would be madness :P
17:20:11 <peter1138> anyway, it's not necessary, so there
17:20:23 <andythenorth> would have to be a special flag, but...bigger fish to fry imo
17:20:34 <peter1138> yeah, like ez sprites
17:20:35 <andythenorth> did I mention any of those?
17:20:47 <TrueBrain> Zuu: FYI, in my latest version I renamed GoalNNN to GSNNN, and renamed 'goal' to 'game' (including directory of scripts). It is not uploaded yet or anything, but it most likely will be in the next version ;)
17:20:52 <andythenorth> you think ez sprites are needed? I like the appearance when zoomed
17:21:07 <peter1138> andythenorth, i love it
17:21:24 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Thanks for your information.
17:21:54 <Zuu> Sounds like a sensible change
17:22:14 <TrueBrain> the GS part should be a lot easier to type over and over :D
17:23:25 <Zuu> And it becomes easier to make a lazy AI -> GS conversion :-)
17:23:47 <Zuu> As I assume GS is always uppercase, while Goal was not.
17:24:04 <TrueBrain> another nice new addition, at the start of a new game, you get 250 ticks to do your script thingy. Works really awseom :D
17:24:46 <TrueBrain> AIs have no business in that :)
17:24:48 <glx> <@peter1138> citroen gs? <-- nice car :)
17:25:10 <Zuu> As the other would be unfair against players, although to be really fair, AIs should be then allowed to hit pause and run while paused :-)
17:27:07 <Zuu> One thing with GS being allowed to run while pasued, it breaks my "break on pause" feature in the AI Debug window. :-)
17:27:53 <Zuu> Where "break" means that it pauses the game.
17:28:30 <Zuu> But that is a secondary thing that could be solved down the road.
17:30:03 <TrueBrain> and results of running the script for a bit during startup is really epic
17:30:12 <TrueBrain> no longer you have to wait 30 seconds before all towns are marked etc
17:30:52 <Zuu> Is any DoCommand accepted during those 250 ticks? Eg. could you build road, industries etc. ?
17:31:09 <TrueBrain> those who are allowed by the API are, with no restrictions
17:31:21 <TrueBrain> where normally you can only do 1 docommand per tick, you can do many many docommands in those ticks
17:31:26 <Eddi|zuHause> <peter1138> i have no CETS wagon for wood :( <-- there should be special wagons for wood
17:31:29 <TrueBrain> it aborts on VM opcodes
17:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> double-wagons, actually
17:32:11 <Zuu> So by default you have 250 * 10 000 instructions with no limitation that a DoCommand ends the tick?
17:32:12 <TrueBrain> Zuu: but atm it looks like you will get access to all those commands yes
17:32:33 <TrueBrain> so it is good practice to have a sleep() when you are done
17:32:57 <TrueBrain> I now wrote code that inits the map, then it goes in a loop of real timer, waiting for the game to start
17:33:05 <TrueBrain> that is the best way to end your startup cycle
17:33:20 <TrueBrain> I considered adding an event, but polling events takes a lot of opcodes :P
17:33:24 <Zuu> You could possible enforce that by adding a InitDone() function, and "crash" scripts that doesn't use it.
17:33:54 <TrueBrain> I am thinking that the first Sleep() should just suspend it till the next time
17:34:03 <TrueBrain> euh, till the game starts
17:34:22 <TrueBrain> so: (your init code). this.Sleep(<any value>); <it will get here when the game is starting>
17:35:28 <Zuu> It is maybe simplier to use Sleep than a new special InitDone, which will make it easier to learn GS and do it right in the long run.
17:37:00 <TrueBrain> well, the other problem is that you might run out of time and you fail to do the Initdone because of that ;)
17:37:16 <Zuu> But I don't know. Say that you don't know GS and read one GS-script that uses this.Sleep() and another that uses this.WaitForGameStart(), isn't the later more self explationary?
17:37:21 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23319 /trunk/src/ (signs.cpp station_cmd.cpp town_cmd.cpp waypoint_cmd.cpp): -Fix (r23316): Offsets of viewport signs were not scaled up.
17:38:13 <Zuu> Oh, yes, punishing GS scripts that don't call it within 250 ticks may be a bit too harsh.
17:39:42 <Eddi|zuHause> what's the problem there? just let it go on tick-by-tick...
17:40:14 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: that is what he is saying: his idea to abort an GS when it doesn't reach it, is a bit harsh ;)
17:40:21 <TrueBrain> now they just run on, on a much slower speed, but okay
17:40:46 <TrueBrain> Zuu: now thinking about it, I might make the initial part 'infinte' long
17:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe throw out a debug message?
17:40:52 <TrueBrain> where you have to trigger a Sleep(1) or what-ever function
17:40:55 <TrueBrain> to finish generating the map
17:41:17 <Zuu> Can the user abort map generation?
17:41:26 <TrueBrain> well, there is an Abort button
17:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> only with threading enabled
17:41:40 <TrueBrain> I am not promising it works on all OSes, but ;)
17:42:27 <Zuu> Though, after 10 000 op codes, isn't the GUI updated?
17:42:28 <TrueBrain> GS that takes very long will be punished by the community I am sure :P
17:42:50 <TrueBrain> the GUI is updated every tick; not that it really matters :)
17:42:59 <Eddi|zuHause> there is no community feedback on bananas
17:43:43 <Zuu> So there is really no way for a GS to hang OpenTTD on startup. (other than using the same tricks an it could do when running normally)
17:44:10 <TrueBrain> we can build in some extreme failsafe
17:44:13 <TrueBrain> like 1000 ticks or whatever
17:44:38 <Zuu> I don't think that will add anything, if the user can hit Abort if it takes too long.
17:44:57 <TrueBrain> I agree; just not all systems can handle Abort during generation
17:45:04 <TrueBrain> but you can always just kill :D
17:45:08 <Zuu> Other than the fact that OpenTTD can punish the script so that the user don't think OpenTTD is broken :-D
17:45:49 <Zuu> (if OpenTTD abort the script and display a red message if it takes longer than X ticks)
17:46:06 <Eddi|zuHause> as an "outsider", i'd prefer the "run 250 ticks, and then go on tick-by-tick" method
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17:46:33 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: the problem is that most scripts only need 2 or 3 ticks :)
17:46:40 <TrueBrain> the 250 is completely arbitrair
17:47:01 <TrueBrain> some feedback from the script, with some extreme cut-off would be better
17:47:15 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: the map runs a few ticks on map generation (to provide snow etc.), could just couple that with the GS ticks
17:47:16 <TrueBrain> the resulst is the same, from a user point of view
17:47:31 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: where do you think the GS ticks happen?
17:49:41 <TrueBrain> yeah; I like the idea. You hit Sleep, and next time you wake up, you are on a running map
17:49:49 <TrueBrain> no silly idling in loops waiting for that to happen
17:49:58 <TrueBrain> simplification++, clearification++, more users writing scripts :D
17:57:44 <Xaroth> first implementation+++ :P
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18:26:44 <LordAro> peter1138: i think you just completely ruined the ez patch :)
18:29:59 <TrueBrain> I think he implemented an EZ
18:30:12 <TrueBrain> Zuu: new version is being compiled as wel speak; your script is no longer functional :D
18:31:02 <LordAro> TrueBrain: quite possibly, haven't yet had the chance to see what's broken (wrt the ez graphics)
18:42:32 <peter1138> LordAro, quite likely
18:42:40 <peter1138> no, it's not compatible
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18:43:40 <peter1138> but we all wanted EZ that works everywhere :p
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18:45:32 <welshdragon> peter1138: yes, yes I do
18:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23320 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 7 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:47 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 7 changes by habell
18:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: english_US - 8 changes by Rubidium
18:45:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 15 changes by Snail_, glx
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18:45:50 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 19 changes by lorenzodv
18:46:14 * Zuu wonders what a user would expect to find in a "game" sub directory of the OpenTTD root
18:46:14 <LordAro> no problem, its great, just that i now have to work out which parts of the patch were to do with zoom, and which with colour :)
18:47:41 <Zuu> first I though it was too broad to contain game scripts, but "game_scripts" would also be a bit comfusing next to "scripts". And after all the game scripts do affect the game, but will just not be the entire game logic.
18:55:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r23321 /trunk/src/ (viewport_gui.cpp waypoint_gui.cpp): -Fix (r23316): Extra viewports and waypoint detail opened up at wrong zoom level.
18:59:24 <peter1138> LordAro, anything outside of spritecache/spriteloader/blitter stuff is irrelevant
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19:05:05 <peter1138> LordAro, some other changes are dubious too, like the transparent changes
19:05:22 * Zuu managed to crash OpenTTD-nogo in the world gen. The crash happened later in the debug build and the stack is not soo usable (it doesn't crash anywhere script-related)
19:05:29 * Zuu tries to take out SuperLib.
19:07:25 <Xaroth> if I run newest binary on my server it crashes after worldgen
19:07:35 <Xaroth> but i didn't have any script loaded, might be due to that
19:08:33 <Xaroth> ah, it does not with a script loaded
19:09:03 <Zuu> it crashes still here without SuperLib. Maybe it doesn't find my script.
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19:11:04 <Xaroth> you got them in .openttd/game/test/
19:11:09 <Xaroth> cuz thats the only place it looks
19:14:04 <Zuu> not in the installation directory anymore?
19:14:17 <Xaroth> well the game creates a /game/ folder :P
19:14:24 <Xaroth> so inside there, inside a folder called 'test' .
19:15:29 <Zuu> yep, but I was mostly refering to installation folder vs user folder
19:16:30 <Xaroth> also, the extra zoom levels look weird :/
19:16:32 <Zuu> Things that are under development, I put in a specific installation instead in the global place for all installations. So I was wondering if you really ment that that is not possible for game scripts.
19:16:54 <Xaroth> never bothered to try it
19:18:02 <TrueBrain> it checks all normal directories
19:18:07 <TrueBrain> so any game dir will do
19:19:22 <TrueBrain> ack on crash when nos cript loaded; fixed locally
19:19:28 <Zuu> It is probably then that my script doesn't compile for some reaoson which is not so easy to figure out at the moment. :-)
19:19:54 <TrueBrain> do you use the binaries, or compile your own?
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19:25:54 <TrueBrain> genworld.cpp, around line 166, put the whole block there around: if (Game::GetInstance() != NULL) {}
19:26:16 <TrueBrain> (so before SetGenerationWorldProgress(GWP_RUNSCRIPT, till the _generating_world = false)
19:26:30 <TrueBrain> that fixes the crash of no script .. shouldn't matter for crashing scripts
19:26:32 <TrueBrain> so that is a bit odd :)
19:26:37 <TrueBrain> I hope you are not doing GetSetings again? :D
19:27:45 <Zuu> And added it in my translator script to replace all GetSettings with zero :-)
19:28:07 <TrueBrain> else if you can get me a script with as little as possible that filas for you
19:28:29 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a ge-ening as well?
19:29:27 <Zuu> No crash anymore. (with your fix above)
19:29:37 * peter1138 zooms on andythenorth's artwork
19:30:04 <Zuu> However, as soon as I clicked on the NoGo tab in the AI Debug window, I hit an assert. :-)
19:30:30 <TrueBrain> yes; then the script never loaded :)
19:30:33 <TrueBrain> make sure it is called TEST :)
19:30:37 <TrueBrain> pushing a new version btw
19:30:42 <andythenorth> Alberth: how did groups go the other day? :)
19:31:17 <TrueBrain> and the GUI error ... I should fix that :D But the whole scanning of scripts need work ... meh .. annoying job :P
19:33:21 <Zuu> I've now found the error. I hadn't renamed GoalInfo => GameInfo in info.nut.
19:33:54 <Zuu> As for the record, I can run the CF binary without it crashing.
19:34:16 <TrueBrain> and yeah, the conversion is a bit of a bitch ;)
19:34:19 <TrueBrain> it is GSInfo btw :P
19:34:54 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23322 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt: -Fix: French language used a wrong argument index
19:35:25 <andythenorth> planes should fly like real planes
19:35:30 <andythenorth> using complete stupid routes
19:35:39 <andythenorth> because the world can't agree on how to upgrade control systems
19:35:59 <andythenorth> maybe ottd planes should require players to build navigation beacons every where
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19:37:08 <Zuu> Hmm, on 1024*1024 and "high" town amount, my Goal Script uses about 1200 of the 2500 ticks. (for each town, it loops over all towns)
19:37:33 <TrueBrain> huh? I didn't manage to get it passed 1 tick in my script
19:37:59 <TrueBrain> owh, for each town, over all towns
19:38:08 <TrueBrain> yeah, that will take a while :)
19:38:09 <Zuu> The last I saw before the map gen window was 1250/2500.
19:38:51 <TrueBrain> then it is okay by me tbh, and then it works as intended :D
19:39:15 <TrueBrain> doing Town*Town calculations is a lot :P You might want to refactor?
19:39:27 <TrueBrain> Town! should be possible? :)
19:40:31 <Zuu> I only do that when it starts up. And in case I will continue with it, I can probably reduce it to only compute half of the town distance matrix as the distances are symetric.
19:40:51 <TrueBrain> in general they are :D
19:42:27 <Zuu> At least when speaking of direct distance.
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19:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> how does calculating distances take so long?
19:44:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i once thought about making a voronoi-partition of the map, but never got around to implementing that
19:44:16 <TrueBrain> walking over, what, 2000 towns?
19:44:30 <TrueBrain> so that is 4M distance calculations
19:44:35 <TrueBrain> that should take a few opcodes ;)
19:44:43 <TrueBrain> 10k per tick I believe is granted
19:44:46 <Zuu> It also figures out which are the 5 closest towns within 100 tiles of eacch town.
19:44:55 <TrueBrain> so it should take at least 400 ticks, to start with the calculation alone :)
19:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> a voronoi-partition would give you all "neighbouring" towns
19:45:58 <Zuu> But since most of it is not DoCommands, it is not that limited if it overruns the 2500 limit.
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19:52:38 <andythenorth> did I mention how awesome EZ is at 2x?
19:52:53 <Xaroth> did I mention how annoying EZ is if you don't expect it?
19:53:29 <TrueBrain> we need better gfx :P
19:53:37 <TrueBrain> peter1138: when will you implement rotation? :D
19:54:03 <andythenorth> after he's figured out a way to procedurally draw the other side of industries
19:54:08 <andythenorth> based on existing sprites :P
19:54:35 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: didn't he have a patch for that?
19:54:54 * andythenorth is waiting on the spot price economy :P
19:55:29 <andythenorth> spot prices with a GS?
19:55:49 <andythenorth> could be per town, doesn't have to be per tile
19:56:00 <andythenorth> or could be per unit of 16 tiles or so
19:56:28 <andythenorth> it's not that I wouldn't try
19:56:35 <andythenorth> more that I should ship what's started
19:57:28 <andythenorth> there's no point having four crappy newgrfs *and* then starting a GS as well
19:57:34 <andythenorth> I should make the newgrfs less crappy
20:03:37 *** SammieCat has joined #openttd
20:03:53 <SammieCat> Happy US Thanksgiving everyone!
20:06:06 <Alberth> number of US persons is not so large here, I think :)
20:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd estimate about 10% of the community
20:07:50 <Eddi|zuHause> which would probably make it the 4th biggest group after germans, english/british and dutch
20:08:17 <SammieCat> what about Japanese?
20:08:31 <Eddi|zuHause> they have a fairly separate community
20:08:45 <SammieCat> I'm just thinking of the big makers of model trains
20:08:48 <Eddi|zuHause> as do the russians
20:08:50 <SammieCat> most of my models are Japanese
20:09:20 <Eddi|zuHause> can't say that about my models :)
20:09:57 <SammieCat> well, I always prefer either KATO models for N or Marklin for HO
20:12:30 <SammieCat> I actually came here because I needed to ask a question
20:14:23 <SammieCat> I've been playing a lot of 64x64 games so the industries tend to be just one of each type in a map and oftentimes if I'm not fast enough at providing service to a particular supplier it will drop to what I can only guess is a production of zero where, by all rights, it ought to have been removed from the map. But it isn't removed from the map and it doesn't seem to remove until I add another industry. Even when it increases by 10
20:14:23 <SammieCat> 0% it doesn't increase production which I can only figure means they have a production of 0. Is this a bug or is it intended to work this way?
20:16:29 <appe> i have noticed the same thing
20:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> a savegame would be best in that case
20:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably one short before it lowers production to 0
20:19:24 <Alberth> SammieCat: non-primary industry does not produce on its own
20:19:50 <SammieCat> I know that ALberth, I should have specified I'm talking about primary industries here
20:20:02 <andythenorth> it's preventing closure of last primary industry
20:20:25 <andythenorth> there is a flag for 'ensure at least one of this type of industry' or such
20:20:33 <SammieCat> Yes, I have to admit to save-scumming a teeny bit. Especially when working with NARS or other GRFs that have very expensive trains. Makes building an infrastructure quickly enough very difficult!
20:20:35 <andythenorth> although it was dubious for a while whether it actually worked
20:20:40 <Eddi|zuHause> may depend on the newgrfs involved and such
20:20:52 <andythenorth> Alberth: didn't you fix that industry feature ?
20:21:24 <Alberth> I fixed that it will build missing industries, I did not touch closure prevention
20:22:22 <andythenorth> industry_cmd.cpp is so squirrely
20:22:35 <SammieCat> maybe a way to deal with this would be to add a check to see if the current production is at 0 and instead of then increasing by a multiple you add one
20:22:37 <Eddi|zuHause> on my small YACD game i had almost no new industries over the course of the game
20:22:39 <andythenorth> so many ifs for different advanced settings P
20:22:47 <SammieCat> that way you don't get a 0*n=0 issue
20:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> town growth definitely dwarfs industry growth
20:23:28 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe i'm playing FIRS the wrong way
20:23:28 <SammieCat> either that or add a feature to "buy" a production point for an appropriately large amount of money
20:23:53 <andythenorth> can't we ditch code for town growth, industry growth etc and delegate to scripts?
20:23:55 <Alberth> SammieCat: another approach could be to close the industry, imho
20:24:30 <Alberth> andythenorth: you'd need to write a default implementation :)
20:24:57 <SammieCat> Alberth: *nods* that would make sense. I feel that removing the incentive to build fast on 64^2 maps would remove a lot of the fun of those games... It's just important that the game then make another of the industry soon-ish
20:24:59 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you'd need to include that in any game script, since only one can be active
20:25:10 <andythenorth> and it probably has performance issues
20:25:18 <Alberth> andythenorth: and if you did, you don't care about what the game does, as your script took over :p
20:25:30 <Eddi|zuHause> instead it should offer triggers that the game script can override
20:25:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: ^ that's my point
20:26:06 <andythenorth> reimplementing vanilla (O)TTD gameplay in a script is probably madness :P
20:26:26 <andythenorth> but if we had lots of time and a high boredom threshold, it would be the logical solution
20:26:33 <SammieCat> must resist Sparta joke...
20:26:46 <Eddi|zuHause> so you'd have a flag "GSTown.automatic_growth" and a function "GSTown.Grow([location])"
20:27:07 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: too much is done by a grf already, some people will complain hard when we move everything to script :P :P
20:27:32 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: there already is a 'flag' automatic_growth, we call it a setting :D
20:27:54 <TrueBrain> same for Grow (but called ExpandTown) :P
20:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but one that the script should be able to override
20:28:03 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: I thought for a while we should abolish industry-specifc code for default industries and move that to a grf :P
20:28:03 <TrueBrain> that I just said :)
20:28:19 * andythenorth -> fish and chips
20:28:35 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: there are 4 ways to control town growth: set growth-rate, set goals, set goals + growth rate, or do it yourself :)
20:30:32 <SammieCat> andythenorth: being a stupid Yank I always thought fish and chips were like nachos only with fish
20:30:57 <andythenorth> and when I ordered fish and chips in Texas, I was surprised to get fish, cheese and nachos :P
20:31:13 <SammieCat> andythenorth: welcome to the states ;)
20:32:14 <SammieCat> does town/industry growth really need to be adjusted?
20:32:57 <SammieCat> maybe I'm not seeing the whole picture because I only play real tiny maps but it seems that while towns produce more "goods" they also require much, much more of their services
20:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> SammieCat: i never get to do sensible industry networks, because passengers always congest every line
20:33:34 <Zuu> TrueBrain: Is it intended that signs by the goal script are not showing up in the SignListWindow?
20:33:45 <SammieCat> Eddi|zuHause: I always build two networks, one for freight and one for passengers
20:34:00 <TrueBrain> they are also transparent
20:34:24 <Zuu> I can agree on non-editable, but for debugging it would be useful if they shown up in the sign list.
20:34:25 <TrueBrain> I got annoyed by the many many many many ***CITY*** signs :P
20:34:40 <TrueBrain> problem is that they will be mostly used for non-debugging
20:34:47 <Eddi|zuHause> SammieCat: even then, the passenger lines carry several orders of magnitude more
20:34:50 <Zuu> Perhaps show them in the list if gs_developer_tools is enabled?
20:34:55 <TrueBrain> I can make it into a setting if you really want to
20:35:23 <SammieCat> Eddi|zuHause: maybe a solution would be to increase the value of each passenger from a particular city instead of just producing MORE?!
20:35:25 <Zuu> Actually, I found it useful also as a player to see which towns are claimed by looking in that list.
20:35:42 <Zuu> So, I'm not sure it is really a development-thing.
20:35:53 <Zuu> What the SignList really is missing is a company filter.
20:36:04 <TrueBrain> so far I have mostly seen them being used as something you dont want in the list
20:36:34 <TrueBrain> we might also just add a method to add signs that are listed in the list, and ones that are not
20:36:40 <Zuu> Although it was a bit fixed by my patch that added an option to hide all competitor signs.
20:36:59 <TrueBrain> so it was you who forgot the < and > buttons :P Hihi :D
20:37:11 <TrueBrain> I found that they still walk over all signs, which took me by surprise :D
20:37:23 <Zuu> Oh, I never use those buttons :-)
20:37:36 <TrueBrain> I doubt anyone does :P
20:38:02 <Zuu> And if they are removed, we'll get several hate mails :-p
20:38:27 <TrueBrain> I am used to hatemails ... took months before they stopped coming in regards of CTRL+D
20:39:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i want Ctrl+D back!
20:39:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (that does something completely different now :p)
20:40:03 * SammieCat sends very-much-not-hate mail to the devs for coding her favorite game
20:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> my cats are fairly indifferent to this game...
20:41:00 <Eddi|zuHause> my CETS however...
20:41:24 <SammieCat> I'm a genetically engineered cyborg cat created by a crazy girlfriend who watches too much anime
20:41:49 <Eddi|zuHause> please keep your fetishes to yourself.
20:42:11 <SammieCat> it wasn't supposed to be a sexual comment, sorry to offend though
20:42:29 <TrueBrain> to offend Eddi|zuHause you need a very large truck, I am afraid
20:42:48 <SammieCat> I don't even want to contemplate what that entails...
20:43:41 <Zuu> TrueBrain: For the two most zoomed out levels, my GoalScript built sign turns black while the two most zoomed in levels have white sign label.
20:44:05 <TrueBrain> huh? It stays fully white here ...
20:44:19 <SammieCat> I hope that truck was made as some kind of joke...
20:44:25 <Zuu> Possible related to fonts?
20:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> afaik it was a coding mistake
20:45:00 <Zuu> My small_font is a ttf-font while the other two are the fonts provided by OpenGFX.
20:45:26 <TrueBrain> ah, no, turns black here too
20:45:31 <TrueBrain> I Thought it just hided :P
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20:46:13 <Zuu> Actually it looks like it is the shade that displays, but not the front.
20:46:30 <Zuu> Towns seem to have a black shade one pixel off compared to the white text.
20:47:30 <TrueBrain> tricky to fix, as text tend to blur at those zoom-out
20:47:33 <TrueBrain> I think I just hide it
20:47:44 <TrueBrain> its unreadable anyway ...
20:49:18 <Zuu> depends on how small your small_font is.
20:49:36 <Zuu> If the small font is large, then it is readable. :-)
20:51:56 <SammieCat> Anyway, I'm going to be late for the feasting so I'll have to go
20:52:05 <SammieCat> I'll come back and hang out soon, though
20:54:43 <TrueBrain> hmmm ... tricky tricky tricky tricky
20:56:30 <TrueBrain> solved it for now; but it is a bit temporary :)
20:56:34 <TrueBrain> tnx for noticing Zuu :)
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21:01:13 <__ln__> am i badly mistaken or shouldn't the alphabetical order of {ä,a,b} be (a,ä,b) with de_DE locale?
21:01:49 <Eddi|zuHause> no. for all intents and purposes, 'a' and 'ä' are equal for sorting
21:02:20 <Eddi|zuHause> (so the order is undefined)
21:02:47 <__ln__> mmm ok, though in any case ä < b?
21:04:18 <Eddi|zuHause> if your sort algorithm is "stupid", it'll do a replace s/ä/a/g and sort afterwards
21:04:43 <__ln__> hmmm, now i think i realized what's going wrong... (trying sort on debian command line)
21:05:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: those kinds of decisions depend on the language
21:05:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: he did specify de_DE
21:06:57 <__ln__> i didn't have any of the de_DE locales generated. duh. and there was no warning about it.
21:07:31 *** z-MaTRiX has joined #openttd
21:08:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: then the question is whether you sort for a phonebook or dictionary ;)
21:08:19 <__ln__> (and i never understood why debian insists on generating the locales on end users' systems rather than packaging everything pre-generated)
21:08:30 <Rubidium> German Dictionary: of < öf
21:08:32 <Rubidium> German Telephone: öf < of
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21:10:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: my dictionary doesn't specify that
21:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> it only specifies ß<ss (in case of otherwise equal words)
21:18:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the exact words of my dictionary (Duden, 20. Auflage, ca. 1991): "III. 1. b) Die Anordnung der Stichwörter ist alphabetisch. Die Umlaute ä, ö, ü, äu werden wie die nichtumgelauteten Vokale (Selbstlaute) a, o, u, au behandelt. Die Schreibungen ae,oe,ue (in Namen) werden nach ad usw. eingeordnet. Der Buchstabe ß (vgl. S. 57) wird wie ss eingeordnet. Bei gleichlautenden Wörtern steht das Wort mit ß vor dem mit ss. Beispiele: [...]"
21:20:46 <__ln__> after that the spelling reform took place
21:21:14 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
21:26:19 <SpComb> reminds me of timezones
21:26:49 <SpComb> where due to a design flaw in python's timezone stuff, pytz gives you HMT dates per default for Europe/Helsinki -times
21:27:04 <SpComb> which is some incredibly obsolete timezone
21:30:00 <frosch123> so, who is a regular user of the sprite aligner?
21:30:33 <frosch123> how shall it behave with extra zoom?
21:32:45 * SpComb proposes vector graphics
21:33:09 <andythenorth> frosch123: leave it as-is for now
21:33:23 <andythenorth> give it a few days/weeks/months and see if anyone complains
21:35:40 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: allow setting the zoom level manually
21:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: especially if the grf supplies several sprites
21:36:18 *** welshdragon has joined #openttd
21:36:58 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: possibly give a hint whether the currently displayed sprite is "original" or "scaled"
21:37:14 <Eddi|zuHause> (if scaled, you likely don't want to change offsets)
21:37:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (maybe disable the changing of offsets in that case)
21:38:26 <frosch123> i guess it should never display a scaled sprite
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21:38:40 <frosch123> and only allow to select those which are actually present
21:39:20 <frosch123> maybe we can even catch the zoom level of the sprites being clicked
21:45:52 <__ln__> question #2: why does libc's de_DE locale claim ä>a, not equal?
21:49:10 <frosch123> as long as it claims ä < b it is fine
21:57:43 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: not according to the rules i quoted above
21:58:56 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: if at all, it should be a "secondary" metric. when the "primary" metric results in equal words
21:59:42 <peter1138> if they were equal it wouldn't be able to sort them
22:00:57 <Eddi|zuHause> but take for example: "wurde", "würde", "wurden", "würden". if you define u<ü<v, you will result in "wurde", "wurden", "würde", "würden", which is wrong
22:02:44 <Eddi|zuHause> if you take a primary metric of u=ü<v and a secondary metric of u<ü, you get the correct sorting
22:03:23 <Eddi|zuHause> some words will be equal in the primary metric, and each set of equal words will be sorted by the secondary metric
22:05:15 <Eddi|zuHause> if the primary metric is unequal, then the secondary metric is irrelevant
22:07:33 *** eQualizer has joined #openttd
22:07:48 <frosch123> i seem to remember some book sorting ä like ae
22:08:19 <Eddi|zuHause> now that is seriously weird :p
22:51:09 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: how far is your use-other-vehicle's-position-as-anchor-point patch yet? :)
22:51:35 <frosch123> i outsourced writing it to some guy called eddi
22:52:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't do that... he's a lazy bastard who couldn't code shit if his life depended on it
22:54:52 <peter1138> doom 3 was released in 2004? didn't realise it was that long ago
22:57:25 <frosch123> ottd was released in 2004
23:00:31 <peter1138> also i just downloaded 32bit-gfx-nightly-megapack-2011-06-15.tar
23:00:42 <peter1138> and modified the png loader to load the z0 sprites
23:00:46 <peter1138> and boy, does it look ugly :p
23:00:59 <frosch123> could have told you before
23:01:41 <frosch123> does it look better when zooming out?
23:02:52 <peter1138> not much change there
23:03:04 <peter1138> but then not many sprites are changed
23:05:09 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
23:05:37 <peter1138> anyway, it's nothing to do with them being higher detail
23:05:44 <peter1138> just the style is totally different
23:05:49 <frosch123> well, at least i do no longer need a magnifier when reviewing bounding boxes :)
23:07:00 <peter1138> ahh, loads of stuff isn't changed because... my game is in arctic
23:07:57 <peter1138> loads of stuff still isn't changed mind you
23:11:49 <peter1138> hmm, the factory is messed up
23:12:02 <z-MaTRiX> taken a look at the source of openttd
23:13:20 <z-MaTRiX> it still smells like asm in C
23:15:02 <peter1138> i dunno what version you were looking at...
23:17:56 <michi_cc> z-MaTRiX: Maybe you should look at TTDPatch so you know how asm actually smells like.
23:17:59 <z-MaTRiX> i have no problem with asm, but i thought you like clean looking code
23:18:48 <Yexo> feel free to suggest improvements instead of making general remarks
23:19:20 <michi_cc> Or, alternatively take a random commerical code base written by "programmers"...
23:19:59 <z-MaTRiX> no i dont like that idea ;>
23:20:45 <z-MaTRiX> ahah, SDL does not have a very basic text output function yet as default
23:21:23 <z-MaTRiX> i'll spend a few hours making one
23:21:46 <z-MaTRiX> 8x5 font needs 5 bytes/character
23:22:02 <z-MaTRiX> it fits in a .h file nicely as dbs
23:22:29 <Yexo> how is this relevant to OpenTTD again?
23:22:58 <__ln__> OpenTTD mostly doesn't.
23:23:10 <Yexo> on windows it doesn't use sdl
23:23:25 <Yexo> on mac osx I think only for sound, not sure there
23:23:32 <Yexo> and even for linux there are alternatives
23:24:19 <__ln__> Yexo: not even for sound.
23:26:50 <z-MaTRiX> i see programming is not for everybody
23:28:08 <z-MaTRiX> or programming is for everybody, and writing programs is not
23:30:21 <peter1138> there's a jack audio driver
23:30:34 <peter1138> but that was a bit silly really
23:31:35 <z-MaTRiX> i'd also change the current architecture of the pc
23:32:04 <z-MaTRiX> like not putting game running procesors in the vga card
23:32:50 <z-MaTRiX> instead add a hypertransport, or cpu integrated parallel processing unit
23:33:18 <z-MaTRiX> that could be used for parallel processing anything, also graphic rendering
23:33:38 <peter1138> i'm glad you know what you're talking about
23:33:59 <Yexo> "I see programming is not for everybody" :)
23:34:08 <planetmaker> Yexo: on OSX nothing of sdl is used
23:34:21 <planetmaker> it uses coreaudio there
23:35:32 <z-MaTRiX> i'm referring to FPGA-s for example
23:35:42 <z-MaTRiX> they are not only for video processing
23:35:57 <z-MaTRiX> In late 2008, A cluster of 200 PlayStation 3 consoles was used to generate a rogue SSL certificate, effectively cracking its encryption.
23:46:06 <peter1138> there are no "game running procesors" in any "vga" card
23:49:08 <z-MaTRiX> the game actually runs on the video card, it requires the video cards rendering functions for 3D
23:49:13 <z-MaTRiX> (not talking about openttd)
23:50:54 <z-MaTRiX> so if the pc would have a powerful parallel processing unit, then all calculations would be done using that, and the fvideo card would only be a fast buffered video output card
23:51:55 <z-MaTRiX> not some closed internal magic blackbox that does whatever
23:52:27 <z-MaTRiX> (especially the nvidia)
23:53:18 <glx> GPU is the powerful parallel processing unit
23:53:37 <z-MaTRiX> currently- for graphics rendering purpose
23:54:05 <z-MaTRiX> sure i saw them cracking md5 hash with it.
23:54:11 <z-MaTRiX> still not considering that
23:56:02 <z-MaTRiX> the GPU is a kind of specialized FPGA
23:56:19 <z-MaTRiX> that was designed for graphics processing
23:56:46 <glx> no it's designed for floating point math
23:56:50 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you don't really understand what an FPGA is
23:57:26 <z-MaTRiX> maybe, though i have projects with them
23:57:30 <glx> luckily 3D graphics require a lot of floating point math
23:58:21 <z-MaTRiX> btw glx so you happen to know about the working of the glx system on linux?
23:58:56 <glx> my nick is totally unrelated
continue to next day ⏵
