IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-12
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00:09:59 <Maarten> is it me, or is tt-forums.net painfully slow?
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00:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> i get that same answer every time
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06:59:56 <Rubidium> Maarten: it took more than 30 seconds for a page to load? Sounds like you've gotten a global IPv6 address and your browser tried to connect over IPv6 even though you had no route to the internet over IPv6 so after a long timeout it fell back to IPv4. If it happens again, try ipv4.tt-forums.net and see if that is slow as well
07:01:37 <Maarten> Rubidium: my connection does not support IPv6 (AT&T U-Verse) and I have IPv4 disabled. Furthermore, it was incredibly slow not only from my home connection (24/3), but also from my work's 100/100 Level3 connection, which is connected to IPv4 only, and our firewall is configured for IPv4 only. There is no IPv6 in play here.
07:01:52 <Maarten> IPv6 disabled that should read
07:02:03 <Maarten> for my internal network that is :)
07:02:42 <Maarten> It works again though
07:03:12 <Rubidium> then the internet (partly) broke down ;)
07:03:38 <Maarten> was trying to download a newgrf a few hours ago, took about 10 minutes for the page to load, and the download went for about 20 minutes at about 250 bytes/s before finally timing out..... and that was on the 100/100 level 3 fiber.
07:04:16 <Maarten> Thats what I figured, forum host probably took a dump.
07:04:31 <Rubidium> but I reckon that fibre didn't terminate in the forum's server
07:07:56 <Maarten> nah :) but on both my home connection and work fiber.... everything else worked lightning fast. The ONLY thing that didn't work right was tt-forums.net - so I am pointing my fingers there. (The 100/100 line was about 20% used at the time, we have about 200 computers connected to it, but obviously most of em arent always on the internet). - Unless both ISP's failed at the same time of course. (I am always RDP'd in my home
07:07:56 <Maarten> server, so I tried from there as well).
07:08:42 <Rubidium> and you've tried other servers in the same data center as the tt-forums server to make sure there wasn't any routing issue?
07:08:42 <Maarten> It's not that strange for a webhost to be overloaded. Some other domain on the same network could be overloaded with requests, affecting the tt-forums domain.
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07:10:18 <Rubidium> e.g. from personal experience I can say that Japanese websites from Europe are slow, but very fast from Japan, as well that European websites from Japan are very slow when they are fast from Europe
07:10:31 <Maarten> The 100/100 fiber has VPN connections to Thailand, Netherlands, Paris, Seattle.... I actually also tried to open tt-forums.net from a datacenter in Amsterdam, (I am in California, USA), same problem. - Yeah, I really wanted that newgrf.....
07:11:04 <Maarten> I don't know where the forum is hosted. UK?
07:11:59 <Rubidium> which makes it peculiar, given peter said it's you
07:12:06 <Maarten> Ah :) Well, it failed misaribly from a datacenter in Amsterdam, which is what, 15 km?
07:12:29 <Maarten> But I only tried once from there.
07:13:23 <Rubidium> which data center were you using?
07:13:38 <Maarten> Anyways.... that is 2 connections in the USA (100/100 level3 fiber, and AT&T 24/3), and I believe the datacenter in Amsterdam is hooked up to a 1 Gbps line.
07:14:29 <Maarten> Rubidium: My company hires a few racks in a datacenter somewhere. Our company HQ is in Alkmaar, they probably have the exact details of where it is. I can just RDP into the servers and manage all the VMWare ESX hosts.
07:16:34 <Rubidium> I guess it's something for orudge to figure out as it being a routing issue has become pretty unlikely
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07:18:18 <Maarten> Anyways, around 16:00 my time (California USA), tt-forums.net did not work from my work connection, not through RDP into my home connection about 20km further down, and not from a datacenter in Amsterdam I manage daily. 3 strikes.... I gave up after that, and low and behold, it works perfectly now. My guess, the data center tt-forums.net is hosted at had internet problems. That doesn't seem too strange, it happens.
07:20:15 <Maarten> re: Ipv6, the USA is hopelessly behind in IPv6..... but hey, we got like 40% of all worldwide IPv4 addresses, and quite a few big ISP's holding on to many millions of IP addresses.
07:23:12 <Maarten> anyways, time to go to bed. Gotta drive down to San Diego again tomorrow.
07:24:00 <Rubidium> hope you're not too far up north in California though ;)
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07:26:54 <Maarten> Nah, just south of L.A.
07:27:14 <Rubidium> oh, that's basically no distance at all (in USA terms) ;)
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07:27:25 <Rubidium> have a nice trip! ;)
07:29:41 <Arafangion> My combo signals are influencing each other.
07:30:03 * Arafangion is forced to delete them.
07:31:04 <Rabbit67890> bah im new here and dont really know how to play
07:32:26 <Terkhen> that should give you the basics
07:58:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23192 /trunk/src/saveload/saveload.cpp: -Codechange: don't cast away const needlessly
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08:09:54 <andythenorth> I can improve that a bit
08:10:05 <Rubidium> that's a new method you're proposing?
08:10:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23193 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: don't cast away const unneededly
08:11:17 <Arafangion> andythenorth: That diagram looks incorrect.
08:11:44 <andythenorth> Rubidium: that's a new method
08:11:57 <Arafangion> andythenorth: Let me see if I understand it correctly... To determine if cargo is refitable, there is no need to check the excluded cargos prop?
08:12:29 <andythenorth> refresh - I just made the diagram more explicit
08:13:23 <andythenorth> I don't know whether the implementation would check included or excluded first
08:13:29 <andythenorth> but I assumed check included first
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08:15:52 <andythenorth> if those new props were added, most of the refit mess can be avoided
08:16:00 <andythenorth> leaving classes as a holy war between me and Eddi|zuHause
08:16:12 <andythenorth> which probably interests no-one else :P
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08:17:06 <Rubidium> oh, a Celestar when I'm not at work!
08:18:15 <Celestar> in bed, with the smartphone :P
08:18:45 <Celestar> was wondering, does openttd build on android?
08:19:06 <Rubidium> on android I don't know, for android it should
08:19:10 <Arafangion> I would be shocked if it didn't, although the GUI would be another matter.
08:19:39 * Arafangion should get an Android laptop.
08:19:44 <Celestar> i should try that one day
08:20:05 <Celestar> yeah, the new Asus thing looks quite sexy
08:20:51 <Arafangion> Asus's high-end tablet is interesting.
08:20:56 <Arafangion> But imho, too expensive.
08:23:12 <Arafangion> Although I think those ones are windows 7.
08:23:48 <Arafangion> Seemed responsive, though, when I looked at it in the shop- but didn't feel like a 'Proper' tablet system.
08:23:58 <Arafangion> The on-screen keyboard is a popup window, for instance.
08:24:06 <Celestar> The prime has some quad core cpu goodness and a kickass gpu
08:24:48 <Arafangion> Anyway, I'm off for dinner!
08:26:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23194 /trunk/src/ (11 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: don't cast away const needlessly
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08:28:20 <Celestar> check out that video...
08:28:51 <Celestar> thats a friggen cpu for mobile devices...
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08:37:01 <andythenorth> peter1138: wtf is the logic if prop 1D (trains) is included in that diagram anyway?
08:37:14 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23195 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: if we really need to cast away constness, use const_cast
08:37:52 <andythenorth> can anyone plot 'grumpy behaviour in #openttd' against 'number of interesting commits'?
08:38:00 <andythenorth> might be an interesting chart
08:40:25 <Celestar> we need const casts?
08:41:23 <Rubidium> well, okay... it's not necessary... but...
08:41:31 <Rubidium> then you can't use const at alll
08:41:40 <peter1138> a lot of projects don't
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08:42:38 <Rubidium> one noteworthy function that you might want to change to accept const is: free
08:44:59 <Rubidium> which is the biggest source of const casts
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08:49:16 <Rubidium> roughly 60% of OpenTTD's const casts can be removed if free accepts const
08:49:17 <andythenorth> so if the new vehicle refitting props were undefined, 1D (trains) would next be checked
08:49:33 <andythenorth> so my diagram needs 'if defined'
08:49:43 <andythenorth> what happens if only one of the new props is defined?
08:49:56 <Rubidium> of the remaining ~40 roughly 20% is due to external APIs and the rest is internally in OpenTTD (generally for good reasons)
09:06:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you go the two-lists way then undefined prop would be equal to empty list
09:07:05 <andythenorth> so my diagram does need to show 1D (train) check for every case
09:07:29 <andythenorth> so refittability will be result from checking *5* properties
09:08:03 <andythenorth> new include list, new exclude list, refittable cargos mask, refittable classes mask, non-refittable classes mask
09:08:32 <andythenorth> where in the order is refittable cargos mask checked?
09:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to do this order backwards, the most important operation must be done laat
09:09:26 <andythenorth> in the implementation?
09:09:38 <andythenorth> or from the pov of vehicle set author?
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09:13:53 <Eddi|zuHause> so: for_each(cargo) refittable = (cargo.class) in include_class_mask and not(cargo.class in exclude_class_mask) xor (cargo om refit_mask) and not(cargo in exclude_list) or (cargo in include list)
09:15:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so: for_each(cargo) refittable[cargo] = (cargo.class) in include_class_mask and not(cargo.class in exclude_class_mask) xor (cargo in refit_mask) and not(cargo in exclude_list) or (cargo in include_list)
09:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so: for_each(cargo) refittable[cargo] = (cargo.class in include_class_mask) and not(cargo.class in exclude_class_mask) xor (cargo in refit_mask) and not(cargo in exclude_list) or (cargo in include_list)
09:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
09:20:14 <andythenorth> all of these discussions land me right back in year 1 philosophy lectures :P
09:20:18 <andythenorth> what is XOR anyway?
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09:21:06 <Eddi|zuHause> "xor" is "toggle on/off"
09:21:26 <Rubidium> basically (not x and not y) or (x and y)
09:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> if it's currently on, xor will turn it off, if it's currently off, xor will turn it on.
09:21:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: as I get the wrong answer for 40 + 40 * 0 +1, I'm the wrong person to try and make sense of the statements above :P
09:22:02 <andythenorth> I can't do correct order of operations without inserting spurious brackets in many places
09:22:25 <Rubidium> sorry, it's not ((not x and not y) or (x and y)) (if x and y are equal, then 0, otherwise 1)
09:25:23 <Alberth> xor means 'only one of the sides is on'
09:25:55 <andythenorth> it was much easier in school with actual chips + LEDs
09:26:17 <andythenorth> you know you can do this logic with geared differentials?
09:26:25 <andythenorth> e.g. lego technic
09:26:56 <andythenorth> AND = both inputs are 1 (spinning same direction)
09:27:41 <andythenorth> OR = 1 input spinning (you get 50% speed though)
09:28:48 <Alberth> NOT is always the tricky one :)
09:29:29 <andythenorth> use more differentials :P
09:30:03 <Alberth> it probably does not work, NOT is a primitive in many systems, ie you cannot construct it from other primitives
09:30:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> OR = 1 input spinning (you get 50% speed though) <-- you get similar problems in electronics. you can't push a signal through an infinite number of gates, because in each gate you lose some fraction of power
09:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you cannot construct NOT from only AND and OR
09:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need either NAND or NOR
09:32:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in any case, I can't evaluate the statement you gave above :)
09:33:06 <andythenorth> and I don't have enough lego or LEDs to test it :P
09:34:16 <andythenorth> do I need to stop thinking of 'if' statements and think of bits?
09:34:44 <andythenorth> I'm used to writing code where you do if (foo) {return x} else {return y}
09:37:02 <Alberth> bits look a lot like sets of numbers
09:37:44 <Alberth> {1,4,8} or {2} -> {1,2,4,8}
09:39:40 <andythenorth> makes total sense
09:39:51 <Alberth> where 'symmetric difference' is actually XOR in bits
09:40:55 <andythenorth> so {1,4,8} xor {2} -> ??
09:41:42 <peter1138> 1101 OR 0110 = 1111
09:41:50 <peter1138> 1101 XOR 0110 = 1011
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09:42:37 <andythenorth> {1, 4, 8} xor {8} -> ?
09:43:46 <andythenorth> ok so it's just sets :P
09:43:59 <peter1138> the actual logic you want is...
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09:44:53 * andythenorth barely passed engineering maths
09:45:18 <Alberth> {x << 1 | x \in {1,4}} :)
09:46:03 <peter1138> ((bitmask from included classes & ~bitmask from excluded classes) ^ bitmask from old refit property) | include list from CTT & ~exclude list from CTT
09:46:18 <andythenorth> that makes sense
09:46:36 <peter1138> this stuff is all done at load time
09:46:58 <peter1138> the result is again a bitmask for refittable cargo types
09:47:23 <andythenorth> so old refittable cargos bitmask would only used in conjuction with class bitmasks?
09:47:40 <peter1138> no, it would work as it did before
09:48:05 <peter1138> you wouldn't need to use it in conjunction with the CTT lists though
09:49:45 <peter1138> and including/excluding via CTT list trumps any cargo classes
09:49:55 <andythenorth> so if COAL is in the exclude list, but also in the old refit bitmask, COAL is refittable?
09:50:02 <andythenorth> oh you answered that :P
09:52:38 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/refit_props.txt <-- if that's recognizable
09:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> -- = "yes", ·· = "no"
09:56:25 <Eddi|zuHause> if you go the one-list-way, then simply replace "exclude_list" with "(global) CTT"
09:56:52 <Eddi|zuHause> where i still think that's a bad idea
09:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the thinking of "we don't need two properties, when we just can have one" brought us into this XOR mess in the first place
09:58:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I'm convinced by the two props
09:59:20 <andythenorth> it's not elegant, but neither is listening to every single vehicle set author complaining about the lack of an exclude property :P
09:59:30 <andythenorth> usability > elegance
10:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> and if you take away the top two rows of the BDD, you have the current behaviour
10:02:37 <peter1138> ^ might work, untested
10:02:51 <peter1138> it steals properties 0x40 & 0x41 :p
10:03:45 <peter1138> half the patch is to have access to e instead of ei for common properties
10:03:52 <andythenorth> let's find out...
10:03:59 <peter1138> i can't remember why e & ei are still split
10:04:59 * Eddi|zuHause has no idea what the difference is
10:05:34 <peter1138> originally ei was a const table
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10:16:29 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it expected to work with RVs?
10:18:06 <andythenorth> nvm some other issue
10:18:22 <andythenorth> if refit mask and class masks are all 0, what's the expected refittability?
10:18:37 <andythenorth> (using old props)
10:18:53 * andythenorth has screwed something up again :P
10:20:23 <peter1138> andythenorth, all 0, then no refittability
10:20:31 <peter1138> unless you specify a list
10:20:58 <peter1138> btw, it's prop 0x40, then the number of items, then the items themselves
10:21:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23196 /trunk/src/currency.cpp: -Fix: GCC 4.7 compilation
10:24:56 <andythenorth> nforenum hates me using prop 0x40 and 0x41
10:25:38 <andythenorth> I need to test this for trains only?
10:26:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: smatz * r23197 /trunk/Makefile.src.in: -Fix: -Wno-narrowing didn't have any effect anymore
10:28:10 <andythenorth> the indices to the CTT are bytes?
10:30:03 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... not finding the nml code to reuse... the railtype lists are 4-byte-entries, and the "cargo lists" are fixed size arrays
10:30:45 <andythenorth> nforenum hates me using 0x40 and 0x41 as train props too
10:31:03 * andythenorth -> suppress errors?
10:31:30 <Rubidium> or create an experimental nforenum that supports them
10:31:47 <Eddi|zuHause> IDListProp <-- is that the right one?
10:32:04 * valhallasw reads IDL and freaks out
10:32:18 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: no, that one has uses 4 bytes per entry
10:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> ByteListProp <-- that then?
10:32:35 <Yexo> you need a very similar class but with 1 byte per entry
10:33:06 <Yexo> almost, that one doesn't print len(self.data) to the grf
10:33:31 <Eddi|zuHause> so len should be the beginning of the list
10:37:13 * andythenorth has to remember how to use grfcodec manually :P
10:37:20 <andythenorth> damn automated build systems :D
10:37:40 <peter1138> andythenorth... how would nforenum know about properties i put into a patch just now?
10:38:18 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the problem is not that it doesn't know them, but that it treats that as fatal error
10:38:34 <andythenorth> I can't suppress it either
10:38:40 <peter1138> so don't use nforenum
10:38:41 <andythenorth> I don't expect it to support them :)
10:38:49 <andythenorth> I just forgot how to work around it :P
10:38:49 <peter1138> it's not mandatory...
10:39:15 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: find the line in the Makefile and comment it out
10:39:26 <Yexo> andythenorth: most oikely the only way to work around it is to stop using nforenum completely
10:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> "global name 'ByteListProp' is not defined"
10:41:43 <Eddi|zuHause> how do i fix that?
10:43:18 <Eddi|zuHause> ByteListProp is defined in action0.py, but i tried to use it in action0properties.py
10:43:21 <andythenorth> the makefile has an option to ignore renum errors iirc
10:44:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: move it to action0properties.py
10:44:49 <Yexo> and add it to the first import line in action0.py
10:46:50 <Eddi|zuHause> (TypeError) "object of type 'Array' has no len()" <-- that would have been too easy :p
10:47:13 <Yexo> len(value.values) isntead of len(value)
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10:48:26 <Eddi|zuHause> or i define __len__
10:49:50 <Yexo> please make that a separate patch
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10:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> right... that should be easy :)
10:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> now i need an elegant way to append the length to the beginning of the list...
10:52:39 <Yexo> values = [len] + values ?
10:52:49 <Yexo> not really elegant, but very short :)
10:53:23 <peter1138> could make it a 0 terminated list
10:53:27 <peter1138> except 0 is a valid index ;p
10:55:16 <Yexo> a list with known size is a lot easier for nforenum
10:56:02 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it compiles now without errors...
10:57:57 <andythenorth> peter1138: appears to work for includes
10:58:46 <andythenorth> requiring the length might foil my plan to use defines :D
10:59:12 <Eddi|zuHause> teach renum to fill out the length :)
11:00:14 <andythenorth> how do I create a test case for the exclude?
11:00:58 * andythenorth has to go look up classes :(
11:01:21 <peter1138> how else will we know when to stop reading? :p
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11:01:51 <peter1138> also while i'm at it, is bytes enough for everything?
11:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> 640k is enough for everybody
11:02:17 <peter1138> i can't imagine a CTT with enough entries to need more
11:02:37 <peter1138> they won't work in act3 anyway
11:08:27 <andythenorth> peter1138: exclude works
11:09:20 <peter1138> if it was a list of labels then it could be (4 byte) 0 terminated ;p
11:10:59 <andythenorth> exclude still feels all wrong :P
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11:20:42 <peter1138> i can't be bothered to set up newgrfs these days :(
11:21:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: it's a hassle knowing what vehicles transport which cargo :P
11:21:54 <andythenorth> I blame the newgrf authors
11:31:57 <peter1138> hmm, ambient noises seem really loud :S
11:37:52 <peter1138> bugger that, default vehicles are annoying
11:38:17 <peter1138> also the map only had one forest :S
11:38:31 <peter1138> (snowy map with lots of snow)
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11:39:58 <peter1138> andythenorth, give me a good newgrf list :D
11:40:38 <andythenorth> I'm biased, I say use HEQS, FISH, FIRS, CHIPS :P
11:40:51 <andythenorth> opengfx + vehicles is a nice change from eGRVTS
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11:41:07 <andythenorth> hmm new AV8 is pretty awesome
11:41:20 <andythenorth> slow and expensive bridges
11:43:45 <andythenorth> pikka made it I think
11:44:02 <peter1138> planeset isn't on bananas? hmm
11:44:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: it appears to work, but i'm not entirely sure about correctness. www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_move_bytelistprop.diff and www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/nml_ctt_lists.diff
11:44:10 <andythenorth> peter1138: use AV8 instead
11:44:20 <andythenorth> if you cba with all the FIRS nonsense, use PBI
11:44:59 <peter1138> Expensive Short and Slow Bridge
11:45:35 <Eddi|zuHause> accompanying CETS diff: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets_ctt_lists.diff
11:48:31 <peter1138> playing with YAIM and EZ
11:48:40 <peter1138> oof, 64MB spritecache too small :p
11:50:06 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i suspect this is a bug in your patch: a wagon without suitible cargo is still available for purchase
11:52:24 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's nothing to do with refitting
11:52:42 <peter1138> well technically it is :p
11:52:51 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but it's a change to previous behaviour
11:54:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: technically you can unify the left and right "check refit mask" boxes
11:54:56 <andythenorth> I figured that should be the case
11:55:03 <andythenorth> this makes my brain box hurt
12:02:09 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, ah, maybe it just needs to set refitmask_valid for props 40/41 too
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12:03:19 <peter1138> did you set the vehicle cargo type to be invalid? (is that possible?)
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12:03:47 <peter1138> if the cargo type is valid then the vehicle can be used
12:03:49 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe it's a bug on my end of the code, though
12:04:14 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe the spec needs refinement on that part as well
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12:06:10 <peter1138> ah, turning infrastructure maintenance on would help
12:06:10 *** George|2 is now known as George
12:06:33 <peter1138> £13/month for one rail line! that's terrible!
12:06:42 <peter1138> make it linear right away :p
12:07:39 <peter1138> playing with the old landscape generator
12:07:48 <peter1138> makes hard maps to link by rail
12:10:23 <peter1138> someone™ should make some decent passenger stations ;)
12:11:00 <Celestar> we need destinations! :P
12:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> i've been saying that for over 4 years now :p
12:12:32 <Eddi|zuHause> in fact, i haven't played a decent game without destinations since then :)
12:14:30 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah I know that feeling :p
12:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... my last non-destinations game is from february 2008
12:14:41 <andythenorth> peter1138: the landscape generator is muchos bad
12:14:49 <andythenorth> what are you PAX station problems?
12:15:01 <Celestar> Load new symbol table from "/chome/vici/coding/openttd-newmap/bin/openttd"? (y or n)
12:15:04 <Celestar> Please answer y or n.
12:15:12 <Celestar> dumb gdb, can't you assume the default to be ... SOMETHING?
12:16:18 <Eddi|zuHause> started in sep 2007
12:17:23 <Celestar> saveload of cliffs appears to be working \o/
12:18:44 <peter1138> oh dear, my train is stuck :(
12:21:41 <peter1138> sounds ridiculous at 1mph
12:22:28 <Celestar> well then get your butt outside the cabin and push!
12:24:42 <peter1138> hmm, iron ore mine above snow level?
12:25:42 <Celestar> any idea on how a cliff build GUI could look?
12:26:34 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: how many destinations implementations were you trying in the past 4 years?
12:27:30 <andythenorth> one day I'll fix the iron ore mine
12:29:35 <peter1138> ah, it's not my bug then :D
12:36:06 * Celestar tries a hacky workaround of a cliff GUI
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12:53:23 <Rubidium> Celestar: isn't the most essential dependency of cliffs the ability to see behind them, i.e. to rotate the map?
12:54:33 <koukku> which vehicles lag multiplayer games most?
12:54:55 <koukku> or is there any difference
12:56:43 <Rubidium> it heavily depends on the situation
12:57:06 <Rubidium> though generally ships
12:58:32 <Rubidium> however, if ships are going short distances (short distance between buoys) or over canals, they won't cause much of a lag
12:58:51 <Rubidium> on the other hand, the actual moving of all the wagons of a train takes quite some time
13:00:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23198 /trunk/src/ (21 files in 7 dirs): -Codechange: introduce a free that takes const pointers so we don't need to cast to void/non-const before being able to free
13:01:51 <koukku> so if you put buoys more densely it should reduce the lag?
13:02:56 <Rubidium> but generally lag is caused by the client not being fast enough to keep up with the server
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13:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: how many destinations implementations were you trying in the past 4 years? <-- i think it was 4 different ones
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13:31:06 <peter1138> part of me says 4x is pointless
13:31:09 <peter1138> and 2x is more than enough
13:31:22 <peter1138> lots of me actually
13:31:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we discussed that plenty of times :)
13:31:44 <peter1138> i'm playing with EZ
13:31:48 <peter1138> and it's kinda annoying
13:31:57 <peter1138> keep going to max zoom then 1 out again
13:33:28 <andythenorth> should I add more steam trams to HEQS?
13:33:38 <andythenorth> I have sprites for two big steam engines
13:34:12 <andythenorth> might make the game a bit easy in the 1880s though
13:34:28 <andythenorth> currently there's just one lame weak tram
13:34:48 <peter1138> CHIPS doesn't have much
13:34:55 <andythenorth> CHIPS is minimal :)
13:35:25 <peter1138> cba to download manually
13:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> $someone is holding out on us with a newstations update that is railtype-compatible
13:35:55 <peter1138> andythenorth, it's no use for passengers ;(
13:36:01 <peter1138> unless i wanna load them by crane :D
13:36:04 <andythenorth> peter1138: what are your requests for PAX?
13:36:11 <andythenorth> I gave you flowerbeds :P
13:36:19 <andythenorth> (for cheating into towns with)
13:36:28 <andythenorth> and a crappy post office I need to redraw
13:36:58 <andythenorth> CHIPS tiles -> concourse
13:37:44 <peter1138> andythenorth, what does that go with?
13:37:52 <andythenorth> default stations
13:37:56 <andythenorth> I like default stations
13:38:12 <andythenorth> do / write tickets /s
13:39:02 <andythenorth> I have the nightly, not sure what's in the bananas version of CHIPS
13:39:51 <peter1138> crap, i have no rvs :S
13:40:09 <andythenorth> what year are you playing?
13:40:44 <andythenorth> you have no good PAX vehicles yes?
13:40:44 <peter1138> dbg: [grf] NewGRF 'HEQS (Heavy Equipment Set) 1.3.0' provides incorrect information
13:41:01 <peter1138> i have no pax vehicles :p
13:41:03 <andythenorth> that's the thing I fixed yesterday I hope - using DC texts
13:42:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "romania confiscates nokia factory"
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13:47:24 <andythenorth> so the readme viewer is ignoring my newlines :P
13:47:48 <andythenorth> wrong format newlines?
13:48:36 <valhallasw> andythenorth: or maybe markdown, where a single newline means nothing and a double newline means a new paragraph?
13:48:46 <valhallasw> not sure about the context here ;-)
13:49:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: so there are no newlines in the file, just carriage returns (which are ignored)
13:49:33 <andythenorth> I should hard wrap 80 char?
13:50:17 <peter1138> so 80 chars is... odd :p
13:50:23 <andythenorth> 80 chars also looks odd
13:50:46 <peter1138> wait for someone™ to add linewrapping ;)
13:50:46 <andythenorth> is hard wrap a bad idea?
13:52:21 * andythenorth ignores hard wrap
13:52:30 <andythenorth> might inspire someone to add linewrap
13:52:59 <Rubidium> I think the bigger problem might be the proportialness of the font
13:53:22 <Rubidium> so the question is whether to use the proportional font and "make" it proportional by drawing it letter by letter
13:53:27 <andythenorth> stupid smart quotes
13:53:33 <andythenorth> I've straightened quotes in my readme
13:53:39 <andythenorth> the game puts them back into smart quotes
13:53:51 <andythenorth> or it doesn't have a straight ' char
13:54:04 <andythenorth> (original base set)
13:54:29 <Rubidium> could you upload the text somewhere?
13:54:43 <Rubidium> maybe it still isn't just ' but some fancier unicode character
13:54:43 <andythenorth> I can commit it if that helps :P
13:55:59 <andythenorth> dunno if pastebin handles unicode correctly
13:56:23 * andythenorth -> converts text to ASCII
13:57:08 <peter1138> andythenorth, it only has a curvy '
13:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> is hard wrap a bad idea? <-- yes, hard wrap is a bad idea. it will fail with different window widths and different font sizes.
13:58:29 <Eddi|zuHause> imagine line wrap is introduced, and the window is ending up slightly narrower than your hard wrap
13:58:37 <Eddi|zuHause> you get one-word lines every second line
13:58:41 <andythenorth> yup, no hard wrap then
14:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have special markers for "start proportional text here"
14:02:46 <Eddi|zuHause> special ANSI escape sequences
14:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (also for colours and stuff)
14:03:54 <Eddi|zuHause> back in my DOS days, you could do really crazy stuff with ANSI escape sequences
14:07:47 <Arafangion> I do find ottd's quotes to be annoying.
14:07:57 <Arafangion> Double-quotation marks are almost unreadable as such.
14:08:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't remember seeing quotes anywhere
14:09:53 <Arafangion> Also, the caption for the quit button on the main menu, although that's single quotes, not double.
14:09:56 <andythenorth> I'll swap quotes for * for now
14:14:44 <andythenorth> have a new HEQS :P
14:14:50 <andythenorth> 1.4.0 now on the fruit machine
14:17:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that looks horrible
14:17:30 <andythenorth> very easy to read :)
14:17:57 <andythenorth> is it just me who finds that super-fast to scan read? :o
14:18:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: is that max(width_of_chars)?
14:18:25 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: yes, in this case the W of MinGW
14:18:27 <Arafangion> I find that hard to read.
14:18:36 * andythenorth plans next HEQS update
14:18:43 <Arafangion> Hard to skim, too.
14:18:46 <andythenorth> rv-wagons <- really not happening is it?
14:18:47 <Rubidium> (in the third full line)
14:18:58 <Arafangion> (And I mainly skim)
14:18:59 * andythenorth will plan accordingly
14:19:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: maybe you should take width_of('m') or so
14:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> or we include a real monospace font
14:20:47 <Arafangion> Why do you want monospace, anyway?
14:20:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Arafangion: tables, ascii-art, ...
14:21:16 <Qantourisc> montpsace has it's uses
14:21:22 <Arafangion> Rubidium: That's fairly pleasant, actually, although I think you could get it slightly more compressed.
14:21:30 <Arafangion> Rubidium: It's not that bad if the 'm''s touch.
14:22:28 <peter1138> are you drawing that one letter at a time? heh
14:23:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i think the proper method is to make a monospace sprite font, and include the option to use a monospace font in the config
14:24:00 <Arafangion> Actually, the 'G', and 'W', already touch there.
14:24:32 <Arafangion> Wouldn't it be possible for you guys to have the psuedo-mono option only for ascii art, as deliniated by, perhaps an ASCII-BEL character?
14:25:29 <Eddi|zuHause> something readable that is filtered, like "$$" or something, may be better
14:26:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "[mono]" "[/mono]"
14:26:27 <Eddi|zuHause> or "[code]" to match forum style
14:26:55 <Arafangion> Sensible, I'd avoid using "$$"'s, simply because currency's already used and you risk a typo being semantically significant.
14:27:10 <peter1138> it's possible to have a real monospace font ;)
14:27:49 <Rubidium> peter1138: you mean by means of fontconfig (or friends)?
14:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> so... who's writing a bb-code parser? :)
14:28:36 <Arafangion> Such parsers are trivial.
14:29:02 <Eddi|zuHause> even trivial code has to be written
14:29:20 <Arafangion> Well, yes, but in this case, making use of the parser itself would be more work.
14:29:32 <Rubidium> in any case, I leave having support for monospaced fonts in the NewGRF readme viewer to... the NewGRF developers (or drawers). If they want to have one, please come up with the sprites for it. ;)
14:33:46 * andythenorth will live with scrolling :P
14:34:07 <andythenorth> and non-monospace :P
14:34:30 <andythenorth> is this farm truck useful in HEQS?
14:35:13 <peter1138> have you done unimogs? hehe
14:35:25 <andythenorth> but they don't haul much
14:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> need tractors with 2 trailers
14:39:30 <Eddi|zuHause> the only vehicle allowed with more than one trailer on german roads
14:40:15 <andythenorth> needs rv-wagons :P
14:40:20 <andythenorth> or the buy menu gets spammed
14:40:34 <andythenorth> could do tram-style refitting
14:41:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you design an interesting scheme for HEQS tractors I'll code it
14:41:23 <andythenorth> they're so boring I was considering removing them :P
14:42:07 <andythenorth> if you care about reality however, farm stuff should be moved by truck
14:42:44 <Eddi|zuHause> why so complicated? tractor+2 wagons, fixed.
14:43:06 <Eddi|zuHause> refitable to bulk
14:43:06 <Qantourisc> Can you open shares to your company ?
14:43:13 <Qantourisc> or only for A.I.'s ?
14:43:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i never cared about shares
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14:48:19 <Eddi|zuHause> haha VoyagerOne is funny... "sure... keep these liveries coming" ... and just a day later ... "i never realized it were THAT many liveries" :p
14:50:28 <andythenorth> the problem with HEQS is knowing when to stop adding things :P
14:51:27 <andythenorth> and also trying to avoid the boring progression of 10% faster, 10% bigger
14:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> you could make it 10% faster, 10% cheaper
14:53:20 <andythenorth> sometimes I make it bigger, same speed
14:53:59 <andythenorth> and with trams, I force mixing vehicles with different speeds
14:54:15 <andythenorth> for more evil 8)
14:54:27 <Eddi|zuHause> something about trams: autoreplace is a little awkward. if you made it "Short", "Medium", "Long" instead of "4 Wagons", "9 Wagons", "15 Wagons", autoreplace would work better
14:54:53 <Rubidium> andythenorth: sometimes make them bigger (in size) but with less capacity but lower cargo aging
14:55:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: if you can explain it, I'll do it
14:55:30 <andythenorth> we keep the same subtypes across all vehicles?
14:55:53 <Eddi|zuHause> IIRC autoreplace goes by subtype name
14:56:12 <andythenorth> iirc auto-renew fails for tram subtypes
14:56:27 <andythenorth> which makes me suspect auto-replace might fail too
14:56:31 <Eddi|zuHause> clone also failed last time i checked
14:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a missing feature, i guess. but autoreplace has specific magic wrt subtypes
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15:16:59 <Rubidium> so... where can I download this dbset xl 0.9 that was released yesterday?
15:17:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: haha :p
15:17:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: certainly not on bananas :p
15:24:08 <Elukka> ESU started making HO locomotives
15:24:16 <Elukka> it screeches when it goes over the switch! i want one
15:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> a propos screeching: running sound callback for stopping a train!
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15:37:59 <MNIM> Then make it so, numbah one!
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16:06:40 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, isn't the stopping status already exposed?
16:06:48 <peter1138> but they stop instantly :p
16:06:59 <peter1138> unless you stop them by hand, but who does that?
16:07:05 <Eddi|zuHause> i think not... at least the last time i skimmed the spec, i didn't see them
16:09:15 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, var B2?
16:09:25 <peter1138> ,.......,.......case 0x32: return v->vehstatus;
16:10:05 <peter1138> vehstatus contains VS_TRAIN_SLOWING
16:10:58 <peter1138> hmm, VS_TRAIN_SLOWING is for breakdowns, heh
16:11:34 <peter1138> and VS_STOPPED means the player requested it to stop
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16:24:27 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: AS_BREAK might be the one i search
16:26:03 <Eddi|zuHause> but that's probably not enough
16:29:52 <peter1138> easy enough to add if it becomes necessary
16:30:11 <peter1138> like if trains slowed slowly everywhere, not just stations
16:31:13 <MNIM> even if it only sounds while slowing down at stations it'd be a good idea
16:32:05 <Eddi|zuHause> well, screeching is typically the last phase of decelerating, right before stopping
16:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think there were some bugs wrt trying to accelerate beyond the track's max speed, which is incorrectly handled in some running cost callback of one of pikka's grfs
16:33:59 <Eddi|zuHause> which might be a pure grf bug, or some necessary variables not exposed
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16:37:19 <peter1138> it probably does try to accelerate, heh
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18:06:46 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23199 /trunk/src/ (order_backup.cpp order_base.h order_cmd.cpp station.cpp): -Fix [FS#4822]: oil rigs that "expired" did not get removed from the station list
18:08:19 <andythenorth> peter1138: what kind of pax station stuff do you seek?
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18:26:32 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: your patches for nml are fine :)
18:26:43 <Yexo> only thing I'd change most likely is the naming of the properties
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18:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23200 /trunk/src/lang/ (french.txt italian.txt unfinished/persian.txt vietnamese.txt):
18:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by Snail_
18:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by Snail_
18:45:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: persian - 31 changes by Peymanpn
18:45:24 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 1 changes by nglekhoi
18:48:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23201 /trunk/src/ai/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Doc: [NoAI] Hide all contents of AIObject from the API documentation as AIs were never able to use it anyway
18:50:00 <andythenorth> mb stations look quite...complex and lots of work
18:50:27 * andythenorth was wondering if there are things that could be boshed into CHIPS in one evening
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18:53:03 <Rubidium> andythenorth: grfv8 support?
18:53:33 <andythenorth> is it XOR grvv8, or OR grfv7, grfv8 ?
18:53:52 <andythenorth> presumably it has be v7 or v8?
18:54:04 <Rubidium> you can only support one version in a NewGRF
18:54:21 <andythenorth> I'm going to move all my grfs to v8 ASAP
18:54:26 <andythenorth> dunno about FIRS
18:54:32 <andythenorth> but HEQS, CHIPS, FISH
18:54:52 <LordAro> nml doesn't yet support grfv8 iirc
18:55:05 <andythenorth> does grfcodec either?
18:55:29 <Rubidium> grfcodec doesn't need support for it.
18:55:38 <Rubidium> nforenum supports it since a week or so
18:55:46 <andythenorth> I'll pull nforenum now
18:56:18 <Snail__> does nforenum support the new refitcost callback?
18:57:08 <andythenorth> apparently I don't build my nforenum
18:57:35 <Snail__> well, yesterday I used that callback for the first time and nforenum complained about it
18:57:37 <Rubidium> Snail__: probably not
18:57:55 <Snail__> I see. Any plans to support it?
18:58:09 <Yexo> Snail__: what is the cb number?
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18:59:16 <andythenorth> I do build mu own nforenum, but I forget stuff easily :P
18:59:21 * andythenorth needs to build his own brain
18:59:40 <Snail__> thanks Rubidium, I use mb's m4nfo to code, so I'm not familiar with callback numbers :)
19:00:07 <Rubidium> anyhow, now it should accept it
19:00:25 <Snail__> oh, is there a new version I can download and compile?
19:00:35 <Yexo> you were a minute quicker
19:03:15 <Rubidium> Yexo: how do you think I knew the callback number ;)
19:05:01 <andythenorth> wonder how much of my nfo is not grfv8 compliant
19:06:50 <Snail__> so I can download the nightly, then replace only the data.cpp and finally compile it?
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19:20:05 <andythenorth> would anyone find it interesting to see where HEQS might fail grfv8
19:20:48 <andythenorth> I'll do all the fixes, just wondering what breaks
19:26:54 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23202 /trunk/src/network/network_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4829]: unstable sorting in the network list when two servers had the exact same name
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19:38:11 <He||isH> hi! i updated openttd. in game has changed the font to italic. how to fix?
19:38:26 <Yexo> you can change the font in openttd.cfg
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19:40:56 <He||isH> what option turns off italic?
19:42:16 <Rubidium> there is no option for italic
19:42:44 <Rubidium> if the font that is provided by OpenTTD does not support your language it asks your operating system for a suitable font
19:43:02 <Rubidium> so your operating system has returned the italic font as most suitable to OpenTTD
19:43:46 <Rubidium> section 9 of the readme tells you how to set a font yourself, i.e. how to override the choice the operating system makes for you
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19:46:21 <Snail__> I see... talking about this, my OTTD changes font depending on the language I select
19:46:49 <Snail__> English, French, Italian etc. have each a specific font... and I never set anything up like this
19:48:19 <Rubidium> well... it asks for a font that supports a particular language
19:49:21 <Snail__> but Western languages should be supported by the same fonts... shouldn't they?
19:50:18 <MNIM> the word is /should/ yes.
19:51:11 <Rubidium> Snail__: basically all Western languages are supported by the default font
19:51:50 <Snail__> but in my case, French and English have a font that's different from default
19:52:02 <Snail__> I have no idea why it gets changed
19:52:02 <Rubidium> then what version are you using?
19:53:12 <Rubidium> they both use the same default font for me
19:53:23 <Snail__> but it also happened with earlier versions
19:53:47 <Snail__> for me, the default fonts are applied to other languages... Irish (Gaelic), Italian...
19:53:52 <b_jonas> Devedse: they differ from what other languages?
19:54:27 <b_jonas> could it be that the English/French font has iso-8859-1 (or iso-8859-15) character, but not iso-8859-2 character?
19:54:29 <Rubidium> Snail__: something is *very* wrong for you
19:54:57 <b_jonas> oh, you're saying Italian, so that's not possible
19:54:58 <MNIM> Snail__: sounds like something's wrong with your OS, not the OTTD
19:54:59 <Rubidium> as for at least two years the French language does not need an external font anymore
19:55:15 <b_jonas> (unless iso-8859-1 versus iso-8859-15 is involved, but that's unlikely)
19:55:58 <Snail__> like, it's due to the fonts I've installed in my OS?
19:55:59 <Rubidium> well, OpenTTD uses UTF-8 so ancient code pages have no influence
19:56:39 <Rubidium> Snail__: the base font is not really a font but is part of the base set
19:57:23 <Rubidium> so either you're getting a message about missing sprites each time you start OpenTTD
19:58:26 <Rubidium> using OpenGFX or the original graphics?
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19:59:49 <Snail__> the message says, "The currently used base graphics is missing a number of sprites. Please update the base graphics set"
20:00:07 <Snail__> but I got all the original files from TTD... (I bought that game in 1994 btw :p )
20:00:22 <Rubidium> that I already assumed ;)
20:00:29 <Snail__> so I don't know what I should add
20:00:49 <Rubidium> so you have an openttd.grf and/or .obgs of an older version somewhere in the search path for OpenTTD
20:01:29 <Rubidium> or you're not updating the data directory when you're downloading a new version of OpenTTD
20:02:01 <Snail__> well, I have openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf
20:03:24 <Snail__> and in the data directory I have the original files (sample.cat, trg1r.grf to trgtr.grf (5 files) and ttdloadw.ovl
20:04:06 <Rubidium> and where do you put the data files that are in the nightly downloads?
20:05:46 <Rubidium> for what it's worth, openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf have been gone for over 15 months now
20:07:09 <Snail__> I put them in the ottd/bundle/data directory
20:13:06 <Rubidium> well, I reckon there's an .obg file somewhere else than that ottd/bundle/data directory that refers to some old file or something
20:13:34 <Rubidium> as I'm using the original graphics and I do not get the warning about missing sprites
20:14:10 <Rubidium> as we, the OpenTTD devs, put the required sprites for the original graphics in openttd.grf which gets distributed with each openttd release
20:14:47 <Snail__> yep, I have three. orig_dos.obg, orig_win.obg, orig_dos_de.obg
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20:53:48 <andythenorth> hola planetmaker
20:58:03 <andythenorth> and all use of cb 16 needs changing
21:00:36 <planetmaker> yes. and no. It's certainly not urgent.
21:00:51 <planetmaker> I'd not yet go for that for HEQS. Though... maybe
21:00:58 <planetmaker> you just released 1.4, right?
21:01:11 <andythenorth> just released 1.4...
21:01:17 <andythenorth> next release not for a while
21:01:23 <andythenorth> might as well figure out grfv8
21:01:32 <andythenorth> what's eta on next stable ottd?
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21:02:30 <planetmaker> see release dates for 1.1.x
21:02:48 <planetmaker> beta in Dec, stable in April
21:03:14 <andythenorth> we need that auto-updater thingummy that chrome has :P
21:04:38 <planetmaker> for what? for openttd?
21:06:29 <Alberth> planetmaker: about E00 FIRS error: s@/ trunk r22780@/ nightly r22780@ ?? (nightly has a higher chance of being understood)
21:07:32 <planetmaker> but it might not be a nightly ;-)
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21:09:16 <planetmaker> you might have a point though, even if it's not accurate
21:09:33 <planetmaker> though I hoped that 1.2.0 is clear enough
21:09:45 <planetmaker> that bloke really did not read more than 3 letters
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21:11:21 <andythenorth> brantwan is not someone I'm going to spend time helping
21:11:50 * andythenorth has gone all non-community in his old age :{
21:12:40 <andythenorth> I used to think 'be nice to the idiots'
21:12:48 <andythenorth> it's an obligation to do the better thing
21:12:58 <andythenorth> and sometimes they're not idiots, just inexperienced
21:13:13 <Alberth> it also says 'or newer' ;)
21:14:26 <andythenorth> currently I am feeling less kind to the idiots for some reason
21:15:31 <Alberth> so ignore them for a while :)
21:16:12 <andythenorth> meanwhile, unrelated to the idiots, there are some epic things happening in ottd :)
21:17:20 <z-MaTRiX> if i put a smaller aperture in my webcam it will receive less light like if i used an ND filter right?
21:17:39 <z-MaTRiX> how does it make a difference?
21:18:32 <andythenorth> greater depth of field
21:30:17 <peter1138> nothing's happening in ottd
21:30:20 <peter1138> you're just making it up
21:31:10 <andythenorth> well my trains are going around
21:31:16 <andythenorth> that's something
21:37:07 <He||isH> Rubidium, 10x, it helped
21:37:38 <glx> <Rubidium> as for at least two years the French language does not need an external font anymore <-- µ in OSK string IIRC
21:49:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i should learn to put "p0" or "p1" in my patch file names...
21:57:15 <Alberth> only use 'git' style patches :)
22:02:41 <peter1138> tue "th" in "thanks" is not a "t" sound
22:04:03 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he meant tanks?
22:04:10 <Eddi|zuHause> or "ten kisses"?
22:06:49 <andythenorth> HEQS doesn't have tanks
22:18:48 <Rubidium> glx: those are in openttd.grf since late 2009
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