IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-11
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00:23:45 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: "that a vehicle set author has a way to ensure that every cargo, known or not." <- aren't you mssing something like "can be transported" at the end?
00:48:01 <peter1138> 23:43 < Eddi|zuHause> if you automatically exclude all entries of the CTT from refitting, i need to re-add it to every vehicle that previously decided based on classes
00:48:26 <peter1138> cos if the vehicles decided based on class, they wouldn't have the CTT refit property
00:48:49 <peter1138> so it would still be based on class
00:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but the vehicle might have needed the refit property for other cargos
00:53:42 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: like the default cargos WOOD and STEL, which have "wrong" classes, so need to be overridden manually
01:19:26 <michi_cc> peter1138: I fixed you EZ patch :)
01:21:49 <michi_cc> No idea if the second hunk is needed or good, but I figured that this way leads to the same viewport area restriction.
01:28:51 <z-MaTRiX> i've bought a god of knives ;>
01:31:17 <z-MaTRiX> cuts apple including seeds like butter
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07:21:52 <peter1138> michi_cc, ah, so i really was drawing too much :D
07:22:10 <peter1138> yes, it's perfect now
07:23:04 <peter1138> i need some 32bpp graphics to test with
07:25:37 <planetmaker> what kind of 32bpp?
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07:35:11 <peter1138> planetmaker, i suppose whatever there is?
07:36:11 <planetmaker> or both. I have a few normal 32bpp graphics here. which provide a few ground tiles, maybe a few houses. not sure anymore
07:36:37 <planetmaker> and I can never remember the download links... I guess I got it off jupix server
07:36:42 <peter1138> both would be good for testing
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07:40:55 <peter1138> this patch is now 48KB :(
07:41:31 <peter1138> fixing the sprites in the gui took 10KB
07:42:43 <andythenorth> when do you people sleep? :P
07:42:48 <andythenorth> you don't even have children to blame
07:43:16 <peter1138> i just had ~6 hours
07:44:04 <andythenorth> enough for margaret thatcher
07:45:13 <peter1138> you don't understand, this is ez for all blitters ;)
07:45:22 <peter1138> not only that, but there's no changes to any blitter
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07:55:57 <peter1138> question is, is the concept sound?
07:58:23 <murr4y> or is it a concert sound
08:01:51 <peter1138> 16x zoom in doesn't work!
08:02:37 <peter1138> it's also really slow
08:12:13 <peter1138> just loading sprites causes judders :)
08:12:20 <peter1138> once loaded it's fine, mind you
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08:16:03 <planetmaker> he :-) Cache more :-P
08:16:20 <planetmaker> 1GB sprite cache ;-)
08:16:46 <peter1138> the cache is fine, but sprites are loaded on demand
08:16:51 <peter1138> and that takes time with 16x
08:16:57 <peter1138> it's fine with 4x :)
08:19:58 <andythenorth> I'm about to propose something insane
08:20:32 <andythenorth> mask out some of the class bits, making them unavailable for use
08:20:53 <andythenorth> i.e. adding *fewer* features for once, instead of more
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08:30:54 <andythenorth> leaving cargo class bits reserved and available for future use is a bit of an unexploded bomb as far as compatibility goes
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08:31:14 <andythenorth> well-meaning idiot like me comes along and invents new classes
08:31:51 <Celestar> peter1138: where was that thing that needed AddSortableSpriteToDraw for landscape?
08:32:40 <andythenorth> then my favourite vehicle set author adds support, so I think all is well
08:32:49 <Celestar> peter1138: is it in AddTileSpriteToDraw?
08:32:54 <andythenorth> but due to combination of refittable and exclude props, a lot of vehicle sets now don't support my cargo :P
08:33:32 <andythenorth> classes should be minimal, stable, and the number of classes should not be extensible
08:33:41 <andythenorth> that's not wholly true right now
08:34:20 <andythenorth> relying on people to do the right thing causes this discussion to occur once every n years :P
08:35:03 <peter1138> Celestar, yeah, make it call AddSortable... instead
08:36:11 <Celestar> peter1138: attempting ..
08:37:54 <peter1138> Celestar, as a lazy optimisation, anything with z <= 8 can be done as normal, i think
08:41:10 <Celestar> peter1138: sounds .. premature :D
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08:54:56 <peter1138> heh, ff is slower when fully zoomed in
08:55:14 <peter1138> the advantage of less updated tiles to draw is outweighed by the larger sprite sizes
08:57:54 <peter1138> appears to be a glitch :(
08:58:54 <planetmaker> yes, they drive on the wrong side :-P
08:59:23 <peter1138> ahh, ViewportAddVehicles needs some scaling, i guess
09:02:45 <peter1138> one of the double-deckers :)
09:02:46 <Celestar> somehow vehicles are drawn wrongish now
09:03:25 <Celestar> AddSortableSpriteToDraw
09:03:42 <Celestar> what's the values for w, h, and dz :P
09:06:14 <Celestar> that gives some clipping errors when drawing rail tiles
09:09:24 <Celestar> because that still uses DrawGroundSpriteAt
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09:29:37 <peter1138> yeah, you probably need to fix that too :)
09:30:22 * andythenorth wonders if just one class property is enough to provide fallbacks: exclude
09:31:12 <andythenorth> if (! class in mask) { allow refit }
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09:32:48 <andythenorth> then the fewer classes set by cargo author, the more likely cargo will be transported
09:33:14 <peter1138> grfv8: remove classes and make everything explicit by label
09:33:48 <andythenorth> it's a nice option
09:33:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: solid stuff and liquid stuff?
09:34:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: really, I think that's the way forward
09:34:14 <andythenorth> this isn't satire or trolling
09:34:19 <planetmaker> as they're mutually exclusive we can abolish classes and make liquid a simple flag
09:34:37 <andythenorth> it doesn't need to be quite so brutal
09:34:48 <andythenorth> bulk, piece, liquid are adequate
09:35:01 <andythenorth> we don't have this crap with industry types
09:35:23 <peter1138> bulk, piece & liquid, yes
09:35:27 <Celestar> peter1138: it's getting worse :D
09:35:42 <andythenorth> extractive, organic, processing, black hole, we don't have n different kinds for industries
09:35:52 <andythenorth> and if we added new ones we'd piss off all the AI authors
09:36:02 <Celestar> peter1138: I'm afraid it's not a simple fix for cliffs.
09:36:15 <andythenorth> that was bad maths, we do have n different kinds, but the value of n is known :P
09:36:20 <peter1138> probably not. it was only an idea for a hack anyway :S
09:36:22 <Celestar> if I only knew more about our drawing shit :D
09:37:04 <peter1138> i happen to have just delved through it all :p
09:37:24 * peter1138 ponders splitting this EZ patch up
09:37:25 <Celestar> peter1138: the problem now are rail sprites ...
09:37:50 <andythenorth> just do two bytes: pax, mail, 'express' are all set by the bitmask for the 'express' byte; bulk, piece, liquid are set by the bitmask for the 'freight' byte
09:38:49 <andythenorth> unless I choose to exclude xyz, my vehicle now supports all cargos this way
09:39:07 <peter1138> dropmocks is so slow :(
09:39:29 <peter1138> aye, that's broken :)
09:40:04 <Celestar> weird dropmocks is damn fast for me :P
09:40:50 <peter1138> hmm, wonder if it's privoxy doing shit then
09:41:07 <andythenorth> dropmocks is middlingly slow for me
09:41:18 <Celestar> andythenorth: what browser?
09:41:40 <peter1138> it just spends ages on Loading... ... ...
09:41:53 <Celestar> are you using HTML5?
09:42:22 <andythenorth> Celestar: safari (webkit)
09:42:23 * Celestar goes trying it in chrome
09:42:52 <Celestar> took 4 seconds for me in chrome
09:43:16 <andythenorth> planetmaker: we could force the issue a little by only defining minimal classes in FIRS. I half-think MB might agree about it, maybe ge*rge also
09:43:29 <Celestar> peter1138: the question is .. what exactly did I break :D
09:44:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't think there's *the* solution
09:44:21 <planetmaker> The only thing we really can do is to really explain the existing classes just fine
09:44:31 <planetmaker> with a exact guide on how to use them
09:44:38 <planetmaker> and maybe declare a few deprecated
09:44:50 <planetmaker> And the pro of this is: nothing else than documentation needs changes
09:45:30 <planetmaker> I might have stomach ache about changing FIRS cargo classes. But that might be feasible as there's probably not yet much support for them
09:45:48 <planetmaker> only terkhen and myself will swear about that.
09:46:08 <planetmaker> so that'd probably be fine
09:46:10 <peter1138> eddi seemed rather fixated on making classes the be-all and end-all though
09:46:56 <planetmaker> I still don't see the big difference the suggestions make. Except giving a backward ache
09:46:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: we don't actually set that many classes at >8
09:47:11 <planetmaker> *backward compatibility
09:47:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: with the current system, it's way too easy to have it blow up in your face
09:47:29 <planetmaker> The suggestion certainly is worth IFF we would design it from scratch. But we can't
09:47:40 <andythenorth> the more classes you set, the more likely you are to get an exception due to AND NOT
09:47:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: only if cargos and vehicles handle it wrong
09:47:50 <planetmaker> which they can also with any new system
09:48:03 <andythenorth> but the requirement is to set as many classes as possible
09:48:19 <andythenorth> to enable vehicle set authors to do precise support with classes, this is Eddi's point
09:48:20 <planetmaker> adding one or two additional properties which define refit or disallow refit by label don't break classes
09:49:10 <andythenorth> I dislike the inbuilt contradiction in the current system. "Please set as many classes as possible, but that is likely to cause your cargo to not be refittable"
09:49:18 <andythenorth> seems a bit dumb tbh
09:49:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: that contradiction is not inbuilt into the current system
09:49:47 <planetmaker> it's only the usage
09:49:57 <planetmaker> something which explanation / documentation can fix
09:50:27 <andythenorth> true about the usage
09:50:53 <andythenorth> but explaining it / documenting doesn't solve it, it's just the same conversation every time new authors turn up who missed the last 6 days of fun
09:51:05 <andythenorth> I guess I'd like to make it go away :)
09:51:33 <Celestar> it is slightly better .. but..
09:51:47 <andythenorth> I hope that refusing to use classes >8 in FIRS would not break too much
09:54:06 <andythenorth> I can forsee myself being MB in 6 years time, pasting old discussions into the forums :P
09:54:18 <Celestar> can you do a better DBSet? :D
09:54:22 <peter1138> how can i view that image without scaling?
09:54:45 <andythenorth> is DBSet good? I never used it. It looks nice in the screenshots
09:55:00 <Celestar> peter1138: good question
09:55:05 <Celestar> lemme upload a cropped version
09:55:29 <andythenorth> Celestar: \o/ (screenshot)
09:55:32 <peter1138> andythenorth, well, it's a little dated
09:56:01 <peter1138> cos it relies on some vehicle properties being broken
09:56:33 <planetmaker> Celestar: have a look at CETS ;-)
09:56:44 <Celestar> peter1138: same link, next image
09:57:22 <planetmaker> central european trainset
09:57:25 <andythenorth> Celestar: still \o/
09:57:46 <andythenorth> the sharp edges on the part nearest camera would need some work
09:58:26 <peter1138> have you got 32bpp extra zoom sprites? :p
09:58:36 <andythenorth> how I get to a broken down RV behind a cliff, I have no idea :P
09:58:47 <Celestar> planetmaker: very nice :)
09:58:48 <peter1138> andythenorth, slice the land
09:59:08 <andythenorth> tilt the camera :P
09:59:18 <andythenorth> zoom until you're on the other side of the cliff :P
09:59:53 <andythenorth> if you could just make the class system *less* powerful and *less* flexible while I'm away, that would be dandy
10:00:19 <Celestar> sometimes I hate the linker...
10:00:20 <Celestar> undefined reference to `cos'
10:02:00 <Celestar> it'S the cosine you numbnut ...
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10:03:37 <peter1138> the cursor used when dragging a vehicle is kinda... big :p
10:04:29 <peter1138> planetmaker, do any of the vehicles in the set have proper sprites?
10:04:53 <planetmaker> Prussian vehicles should have. Or some of them
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10:05:13 <peter1138> i mean, i see purchase list sprites, but they're invisible on the viewport
10:05:42 <planetmaker> I didn't check too recently, tbh. Might currently be broken
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10:06:47 <peter1138> the sprites that are there look good though
10:07:07 <peter1138> the steamers look a bit toy-like somehow
10:07:28 <planetmaker> to really work, this set needs newgrf v8.
10:07:41 <planetmaker> it needs more than the 128 articulated vehicles available in v7
10:07:47 <planetmaker> which are all already used there ;-)
10:08:08 <planetmaker> will be. will be.
10:08:27 <planetmaker> But for that NML needs an update. And for that we need to first wrap - up NML 0.2
10:08:40 <planetmaker> maybe we should branch NML 0.2 already
10:11:09 <peter1138> that game must be fun :p
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10:14:11 <peter1138> that was 11/11/11 11:11:11 for some people
10:14:12 <Celestar> I don't understand why my linker doesn'T find "sin" and "cos" :P
10:14:38 <Terkhen> planetmaker: luckily we share a file for cargo definitions and all vehicles use those defines... other sets will have a harder time dealing with any big FIRS changes
10:14:48 <Celestar> peter1138: it's there ..
10:15:16 <Terkhen> I don't see the point for the changes, but honestly I have not been paying much attention to the discussion
10:16:55 <Celestar> peter1138: that's what baffles me. Also if I write a simple test program, it works ..
10:19:08 <peter1138> planetmaker, ah, it's ez that's broken ;)_
10:21:36 <z-MaTRiX> i've bought a god of knives yesterday ;>
10:21:47 <z-MaTRiX> cuts apple including seeds like butter
10:23:40 <Celestar> two adjacent points of a tile can only have a difference of 1, right?
10:23:53 <Celestar> and diagonals may or may not have 2.
10:24:53 <z-MaTRiX> well actually they can have sqrt(2) or 1 difference
10:25:12 <z-MaTRiX> if diagonal, its sqrt(2)
10:25:13 <peter1138> bah, vehicle glitches :(
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10:26:07 <peter1138> Celestar, yes +-1 for adjacent, and +-2 for opposite
10:26:42 <Celestar> z-MaTRiX: what are you talking about?
10:27:12 <z-MaTRiX> i thought you were talking about distance on a 2d grid
10:27:39 <z-MaTRiX> (like the gps function in openttd)
10:28:00 <Celestar> who had that link of all the slope tiles?
10:28:33 <peter1138> it's in docs/ in your checkout
10:30:32 <peter1138> z-MaTRiX, they seem expensive :p
10:31:07 <z-MaTRiX> peter1138<< they are 10 times hard and sharp as the best steel knife, the black is 20 times ;>
10:31:49 <z-MaTRiX> downside is, wou use it to pry, or it drops, it breaks
10:32:32 <peter1138> yay, glitches resolved
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10:37:02 <planetmaker> his suggestion doesn't mean to re-define classes really. Just to explain them better
10:37:14 <planetmaker> he suggests to adjust a few classes for existing cargos. Maybe
10:38:41 <peter1138> does CETS have a brake van?
10:41:19 <planetmaker> dunno whether it has (yet)
10:41:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: eddi's suggestion is quite fine to me - although it relies on agreeing conventions about use, and it spirals off even more new classes
10:41:40 <andythenorth> the work Eddi has done all makes sense
10:41:51 <andythenorth> I just think it's solving the wrong problem :P
10:42:19 <Celestar> halftiles are giving me the creeps
10:43:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I saw your posting about intention. But... where does eddi's suggestion contradict that?
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10:44:05 <andythenorth> I see classes as a fallback for refitting. Eddi sees them as the default.
10:44:20 <andythenorth> other than that, the solution is fine
10:44:35 <andythenorth> if this is the route we take, I won't gripe about it (unless I forget)
10:44:50 <andythenorth> I would prefer a minimalist scheme, enforced by ottd code
10:45:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: where's the difference between 'fallback' and 'default'?
10:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> ... now that didn't work as i intended
10:45:58 <planetmaker> I looked a bit extensive at your suggestion as in the wiki
10:46:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's about the order of refitting
10:46:25 <andythenorth> order? Precedence? some word I don't know
10:46:30 <planetmaker> with a few changes to some labels
10:46:35 <planetmaker> *classes for some labels
10:47:08 <andythenorth> in Eddi's scheme, I think the goal is to be able to control refitting precisely without recourse to labels. You set classes first, and only use labels where the classes are somehow 'wrong'
10:47:34 <andythenorth> in my scheme, you only get precise refitting with labels. If you don't use a label, the classes offer no warranty about precise refitting
10:47:56 <andythenorth> in my scheme, if you want precision, you *have* to use the label
10:48:19 <andythenorth> in Eddi's scheme, you rely on being able to set classes for precision
10:48:32 <andythenorth> I think the latter is impossible.
10:48:49 <andythenorth> Even more so whilst some class bits remain undefined
10:48:53 <andythenorth> and available for use
10:49:42 <andythenorth> if we locked the class bits now and said 'no more, ever' I'd be happier
10:50:33 <peter1138> it was funny watching it terraform
10:50:33 <andythenorth> reimplement it :P
10:50:49 <andythenorth> it was fun playing a game with something crazy on the loose
10:50:52 <andythenorth> actually I miss it too
10:51:05 <andythenorth> it used to be quite satisfying to buy it, and demolish everything it did
10:51:08 <peter1138> well that was that network game i played with sacro
10:51:16 <andythenorth> also, it would come along and ruin your nice plans for building a network
10:51:22 <peter1138> but the landscape was left in ruins
10:52:03 <peter1138> hmm, i need some normal 32bpp graphics too
10:52:10 <peter1138> and some 32bpp EZ tiles
10:52:13 <peter1138> should be easy to find :D
10:52:22 <peter1138> well, normal 32bpp graphics, maybe not :p
10:52:37 <andythenorth> planetmaker: Eddi|zuHause the only thing I really care about classes right now is (a) decide something (b) find a way to lock the remaining class bits out
10:52:43 <andythenorth> otherwise this just all happens again
10:53:01 <peter1138> ooh, that small airport is weird
10:53:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i haven't played with the original AI in almost 15 years
10:54:50 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: what makes you add 'powederized' to the fertilizer but not to oil seeds?
10:55:27 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i actually have no real clue what "oil seeds" are
10:55:42 <planetmaker> sun flower for example
10:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but "seeds" usually implies larger grain size
10:55:49 <andythenorth> do you know what vehicles they travel in ? :P
10:55:57 <planetmaker> a typical fertilizer grain is ~3mm
10:56:16 <planetmaker> just to consider it :-)
10:56:22 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes. bulk
10:56:42 <andythenorth> what about bags? containers? barrels?
10:56:52 <planetmaker> at least when harvested. They're not different from grain
10:57:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I have proof: tankers
10:57:21 <andythenorth> 4753777&page=1&tbnh=150&tbnw=145&start=0&ndsp=18&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0
10:57:59 <andythenorth> bulk, liquid, piece
10:58:08 <andythenorth> keep refrigerated for hysterical raisins
10:58:13 <andythenorth> refrigerated - I don't care either way
10:58:24 <andythenorth> lock everything else by clearing the bits in ottd code
10:58:35 <andythenorth> (pax, mail keep)
10:58:36 <Terkhen> I still don't understand why you need a change
10:58:40 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: btw. i'm not agreeing with your "cement has its own label" edit. in FIRS, the cement plant produces BDMT, not CMNT
10:59:03 <andythenorth> we need a librarian :P
10:59:09 <andythenorth> one librarian and only one
10:59:23 <andythenorth> MB has done us a great favour so far by policing classes wrt ECS
10:59:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not every bulk building material is powderized
10:59:44 <andythenorth> 'community consensus' on this is a fallacy :P
10:59:52 <planetmaker> and cement from a cement plant as "building material" is something I rather envision packed in 50kg bags
11:00:07 <planetmaker> thus I think powderized for bdmt is wrong
11:00:18 <planetmaker> it doesn't fit most ideas I have of a bulk building material :-)
11:00:22 <andythenorth> until I draw a readymix concrete tower at the builders yard :P
11:00:28 <planetmaker> cement is only one among many
11:00:29 <andythenorth> then you have to transport cement as powder
11:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and why ENSP not oversized?
11:00:54 <planetmaker> not every machine part is over-sized
11:01:00 <planetmaker> like an electronics box or so
11:01:06 <planetmaker> only the really large parts are
11:01:13 <planetmaker> thus same argument: it mostly doesn't fit :-)
11:01:40 <planetmaker> but is the gear box of it already over-sized? :-)
11:01:43 <andythenorth> I should draw some venn diagrams to prove this is madness :)
11:01:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think of ENSP more about complete machines, trucks, bulldozers
11:02:00 <planetmaker> I say it's only one part of it
11:02:00 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but that's actually a FIRS problem
11:02:07 <planetmaker> I easily ship it in containers, too
11:02:13 <andythenorth> when some idiot like me comes along with composite cargos, the only valid class(es) are the ones that *all* examples of the cargo fit
11:02:32 <andythenorth> is ENSP *always* at least piece goods?
11:02:44 <planetmaker> andythenorth: my argument is: in case of doubt don't add restrictions like 'oversized', 'refrigerated', 'powderized' or so
11:02:50 <planetmaker> just one (or more) of the base classes
11:03:05 <planetmaker> ensp is in my idea always piece goods
11:03:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker my argument is same, I'm just coming at it from a different angle
11:03:13 <andythenorth> ensp is always piece goods
11:03:18 <andythenorth> the 'extra' classes are nonsense
11:03:32 <planetmaker> but agreed. the class for ensp is a FIRS issue
11:04:07 <andythenorth> we can only decide it wrt the correct spec, and the spec is ditsy
11:04:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but while we're at re-assigning some classes, then we IMHO should consider hazardous, too
11:04:15 <planetmaker> like for chemicals and (fuel) oil
11:05:01 <andythenorth> nobody wants hazardous
11:05:04 <andythenorth> it should be masked out
11:05:22 <planetmaker> I'd not mind that either
11:05:27 <planetmaker> But not leave and not use :-)
11:06:06 <andythenorth> horrible hard coded cruft in ottd :P
11:06:13 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: then "hazardous" is the opposite of andythenorth's "clean"
11:06:30 <andythenorth> "this class was a mistake, and ottd wil prevent it being used"
11:07:23 <andythenorth> "this bit is not available for use, and ottd will prevent it being used"
11:07:41 <planetmaker> I think "not hazardous" is not the same as "clean"
11:08:02 <Celestar> hardly possible to store halftile-cliffs in the slope byte.
11:08:15 <planetmaker> hazardous goes with the orange plate and black numbers to identify the exact hazard on the transport vehicles
11:08:55 <andythenorth> at ottd scale it's useless ;)
11:09:19 <andythenorth> the only interesting use I can think of is setting things like vehicle speed against it
11:09:28 <andythenorth> which is not a valid case for a refit class
11:11:35 <andythenorth> I don't understand wally's suggestion at all
11:14:46 <appe> using the maglev set on a normal map, and that frond-to-end fast maglev train (the white one, cant remember the name)
11:15:27 <appe> when adding carts, the carts was created on a new row underneath the empty train
11:15:44 <appe> ill come back with a save this afternoon
11:16:26 <Celestar> I don't understand ... when are halftiles stored in the slope?
11:17:26 <Eddi|zuHause> when a diagonal rail tile is built on a diagonal slope
11:17:45 <Celestar> at least not in michi's branch :P
11:19:36 <Celestar> slope seems always 0x1b, no matter whether there are tracks on it or not.
11:19:42 <Celestar> or is that not used for steep slopes?
11:19:51 <peter1138> it's not stored in the slope
11:20:12 <peter1138> the foundations and halftiles are implicit based on the track pieces on it
11:20:24 <Celestar> so what do we use those 3 high bits for in slope?
11:20:38 <peter1138> it's a byte because you can't have 5 bit variables
11:21:39 <Celestar> SLOPE_HALFTILE is used for what? :P
11:23:07 <Celestar> that is some weird crap :P
11:23:48 <peter1138> it's used all over the place
11:24:20 <Celestar> but I can't see it being set :P
11:25:59 <peter1138> in ApplyFoundationToSlope
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11:27:04 <Celestar> it doesn't seem to be stored.
11:27:08 <Celestar> just computed on the fly?
11:27:24 <peter1138> yes, all foundations are
11:27:41 <Celestar> I was just wondering why I didn't see it in the map array.
11:28:11 <Celestar> still no idea how to store cliffs in halftiles
11:28:15 <peter1138> the foundations and halftiles are implicit based on the track pieces on it < yeah ;)
11:29:43 <Celestar> ...more can of worms
11:31:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: an MP_CLEAR for the lower half, and an MP_CLEAR for the upper half
11:32:16 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: MP_HALFTILE_CLEAR ?
11:32:41 <andythenorth> worms all over the place
11:32:58 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: the upper one should have some information on which half it applies, the lower one can be a full tile
11:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or maybe you need a halftile also for the lower part, to decide whether to show grass or "underground" in a "sliced" view
11:35:34 <V453000> hm, where is the DB set? :) 11 11 11 already
11:35:50 <andythenorth> he got distracted by some nonsense about classes :P
11:35:58 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you got an MB reply ;)
11:36:28 <peter1138> yeah, splitting tiles for real is... hmm... ugh
11:39:06 <peter1138> remove the feature! ;)
11:39:25 <peter1138> or stick with implicit foundations...
11:39:35 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: not coming
11:40:00 <Celestar> peter1138: the foundations are ok.
11:40:08 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: major ECS overhaul to come, and ongoing cargo class discussion
11:40:12 <Celestar> peter1138: I'm wondering about having cliffs run through "halftiles"
11:40:26 <V453000> yeah, I have been watching that :D
11:41:02 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: both threaten the durability of the set, so release has been postponed until both have been resolved
11:42:01 <peter1138> will it be on bananas? :p
11:42:30 <peter1138> Celestar, making work for yourself :)
11:42:31 <Celestar> is that an exclamation or an acronym I do not undetrstand :P
11:42:58 <Celestar> peter1138: I think it should be skipped at first, since erm ... you'd need to store the (4 bits) of height difference somewhere
11:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> only rectangular cliffs? sounds weird
11:47:50 <peter1138> should i work on getting this EZ patch in?
11:47:58 <peter1138> or should i declare it an unwanted experiment?
11:49:04 <peter1138> ^ why is that in quotes?
11:49:19 <michi_cc> peter1138: As ez8.png really looks good, I'd say EZ is definitely wanted
11:49:57 <Eddi|zuHause> it needs a method to provide EZ-sprites in a newgrf
11:49:59 <Arafangion> peter1138: I always thought that was because you only think you're playing a game.
11:51:02 <peter1138> Arafangion, that would be 'Quit' OpenTTD :)
11:51:08 <planetmaker> peter1138: EZ certainly is one of the most-asked-for extensions
11:51:12 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, does it?
11:51:28 <Arafangion> peter1138: Not if you're an existiantalist. :)
11:51:50 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Is the png+tar route not enough? (PNG can be 8 bit as well :)
11:52:02 <peter1138> michi_cc, that is indeed my thinking :)
11:52:21 <andythenorth> peter1138: include include! my eyes are getting odl
11:52:33 <michi_cc> Especially as a single GRF sprite is limited to 64kb which makes it a problem for high zoom-ins.
11:52:47 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah I know.
11:53:09 <planetmaker> yes, iirc the tar route is enough. It needs a unique naming scheme (bpp, zoom-level). Dunno how that is currently handled
11:53:49 <peter1138> certainly needs more work, 32bpp isn't zoomed in
11:54:01 <peter1138> so all the existing 32bpp stuff won't work at the moment
11:54:10 <peter1138> i do ask myself *what* existing 32bpp stuff, to be honest
11:54:50 <Yexo> most of the existing 32bpp stuff is only zoomed in
11:55:05 <michi_cc> There's only a bunch of totally mismatched sprites.
11:55:19 <peter1138> is there a reason to provide pre-scaled graphics rather than just the zoomed in sprites?
11:55:39 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: details?
11:56:00 <peter1138> zoom in if you want details? :)
11:56:07 <andythenorth> life is too short :P
11:56:29 <andythenorth> it's an ethical issue, if people have *that* much time to waste drawing pixels, they should do something useful
11:57:58 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i mean between the zoomed-in and zoomed-out graphics, some details must be emphasised in a different way, to still be visible
11:58:10 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, i know what you mean
11:58:19 <peter1138> commonly done for icons
12:00:09 <michi_cc> I'd say pre-scaled graphics are probably better for 8bpp exactly for the reason Eddi said.
12:07:21 <peter1138> but otherwise... heh
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12:08:40 <planetmaker> I've seen worse than the scale2x
12:10:02 <michi_cc> peter1138: Tried hq2x or hq4x respectively?
12:10:49 <peter1138> didn't get around to integrating it
12:10:55 <peter1138> it's a nasty ol' block of code i have to say
12:11:45 <peter1138> the buses are made for the new cc algorithm
12:12:43 <planetmaker> hm, could you image the exact same scene with the different solutions?
12:13:00 <michi_cc> peter1138: Can you upload your current version?
12:13:42 <z-MaTRiX> stare at the travelling wave in one place
12:13:55 <z-MaTRiX> then look at the text above
12:14:14 <z-MaTRiX> (above Frequency dispersion in groups of gravity waves on the surface of deep water. The red dot moves with the phase velocity, and the green dots propagate with the group velocity.)
12:24:25 <Celestar> michi_cc: have you any bright ideas about half-tile cliffs? :P
12:25:01 <michi_cc> I have not been thinking about half-tile cliffs :)
12:26:27 <Celestar> michi_cc: I've put the corner of the north tile, the slope and the min height into the Tile struct
12:28:31 <Celestar> michi_cc: which theoretically enables cliffs just nicely ....
12:28:35 <Celestar> michi_cc: apart from some quirks
12:29:14 <Celestar> michi_cc: Eddi|zuHause's suggest was to have two MP_CLEAR (or maybe two MP_HALF, or one MP_CLEAR + MP_HALF) at a single tile.
12:30:33 <peter1138> michi_cc, it's up. still some issues with some child sprites
12:30:49 <peter1138> e.g the animated lift
12:54:49 <Celestar> now that was a convo killer.
12:55:45 <Eddi|zuHause> we have the weirdest convo killers around here :p
12:56:10 <MNIM> Celestar: how did you do that?
12:56:40 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: You don't. :)
12:56:47 <Arafangion> Eddi|zuHause: And that's a VERY good thing.
12:57:51 <MNIM> I got that, celestar, just wondering how it works?
12:58:45 <Celestar> MNIM: storing the slopes individually per tile
12:59:05 <Arafangion> Celestar: Can you make that track higher, such that the track behind is *completely* obscured?
13:00:02 <MNIM> So you get a landscape like in RCT, Cele?
13:00:37 * Arafangion has no idea what RCT, Cele is like.
13:01:42 * Arafangion has never played that.
13:02:02 <MNIM> well, what I mean is that you can get straight cliffs between tiles
13:02:19 <MNIM> like in railroad tycoon, if you do know that one :P
13:02:44 <Arafangion> MNIM: I've never played that either. :)
13:03:09 <MNIM> you've heard of it at least?
13:03:10 <Arafangion> I've played TTD, and OpenTTD. That's it, the only other simulation games I've played are... SimCity and SimAnt.
13:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> the railroad tycoon that i played had no such thing as cliffs. or landscaping, for that matter
13:03:58 <Eddi|zuHause> actually i wonder where i put it...
13:08:46 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: where you put what?
13:10:18 <Terkhen> who is going to code a new simearth for me?
13:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i actually fear it got lost due to virus infection
13:11:05 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the DOS version was available free for a bit
13:11:13 <andythenorth> it's not WINE compatible for me though :(
13:11:43 <andythenorth> or....work on ottd :P
13:12:07 <andythenorth> I like railroad tycoon, but I often wished it was TTD
13:12:18 <andythenorth> ^ applies to RT 1, 2 and 3
13:12:32 <andythenorth> did you figure classes yet? :P
13:12:37 <andythenorth> awaiting reply from MB?
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13:19:16 <peter1138> i maintain that simple upscaling works
13:19:24 <peter1138> but there's there issue of mixing tile edges
13:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> tile borders are tricky when you need to consider adjacent pixels for the scaling
13:22:38 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should treat "adjacent pixel == transparent => use own pixel colour for calculation"
13:24:12 <Eddi|zuHause> and optimize the hq-filter for 30° lines, instead of 45° lines, which hardly ever occur
13:25:39 <peter1138> neither do 30° lines?
13:27:33 <Celestar> so next step would be to draw "foundations"
13:27:47 <Eddi|zuHause> but that one did it on the output buffer
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13:28:34 <peter1138> that does actually look really good
13:28:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i did say "ancient"
13:29:02 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah, but i remember it
13:29:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i played with it extensively
13:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> in the MiniIN age :)
13:31:23 <peter1138> probably possible to pick out the algorithm to apply it to sprites
13:31:33 <Celestar> Foundations are fundamentally different from cliffs.
13:32:07 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah. considering it seriously.
13:32:16 <Eddi|zuHause> MP_CLEAR => MP_FOUNDATION => MP_RAIL
13:34:42 <Celestar> each tile, when drawn, has to take into account adjacent tiles.
13:35:51 <Celestar> the question is, how often is DrawTile stuff called compared to the normal tile loop
13:35:54 <peter1138> i think just simple scaling is good initially
13:36:09 <peter1138> later on other scaling could be done
13:36:18 <peter1138> but it needs more tweaking of blitter encode functions
13:37:39 <Eddi|zuHause> MP_FOUNDATION caches which sprite to draw? then no adjacent tile info needed
13:38:09 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah. that was my line of thinking as well.
13:38:20 <peter1138> could cache the foundation, yeah
13:41:23 <Celestar> shouldn't be difficult either.
13:41:32 <Celestar> but first thing I need is some UI to make cliffs.
13:41:42 <Celestar> because manually setting bits in tiles is getting slightly annoying.
13:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> haha. CTRL+terraform is already taken, though
13:42:20 <Eddi|zuHause> for diagonal levelling
13:42:47 <Celestar> and there's still the option to make more buttons :P
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13:46:46 <peter1138> hmm, these filters require palette information :(
13:47:18 <peter1138> there's a 256KB colour lookup table
13:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> apply the filter after recolouring?
13:47:46 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, that's too late
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14:00:07 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, the sprites are scaled just as they're loaded, before they're put into the sprite cache
14:00:17 <peter1138> so way before palette information exists
14:00:34 <peter1138> i suppose i could try applying it anyway
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14:01:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "palette" as in "DOS"/"windows"?
14:01:24 <peter1138> palette as in rgb values
14:01:50 <peter1138> actually it doesn't need them for the scaling, just to fill the lookup table
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14:08:58 <SileneDioica> i have a question
14:09:37 <SileneDioica> how do i get oil from a ship on a train?
14:09:59 <SileneDioica> and what is an aqueduct for?
14:10:08 <SileneDioica> (ok i know that's 2 questions...)
14:11:38 <Terkhen> and an aqueduct is a "bridge" for ships IIRC
14:12:35 <SileneDioica> thank you Terkhen
14:15:21 <Celestar> Assertion `IsTileType(t, MP_OBJECT)' failed.
14:15:26 <Belugas> FRIDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
14:15:47 <Celestar> I gotta fix the map before anything else loads.
14:16:18 <Celestar> the question is .. how.
14:17:03 <Terkhen> happy friday Belugas :)
14:17:39 <Celestar> AfterLoadGame happens too late ffs
14:25:19 <Celestar> currently, type and height are stored in one chunk. the new version contains only the type in the same chunk.
14:25:39 <Celestar> when loading an old version, I have to rip apart type an height and put it into the right places.
14:25:51 <Celestar> where do I put this in. AfterLoadGame is clearly too late ...
14:27:08 <Terkhen> saveload code is too confusing :)
14:27:38 <Terkhen> my first guess would be at the static void LOAD_XXXX function for the map, but I always get it wrong at the first try
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14:28:19 <Celestar> the problem is the Load_MAPSOMETHING function doesn't know which version is being loaded, does it?
14:29:00 <Terkhen> it does, check Load_INDY at industry_sl
14:29:15 <Terkhen> that's how I did it for converting old persistent storages
14:55:36 <peter1138> this vector scaler :)
14:58:17 <Belugas> thanks Terkhen, but i'll wait until friday is done and gone ;)
14:58:58 <peter1138> a ! in the wrong place :p
15:00:16 <Celestar> saveload still has some hiccups
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15:06:55 <Eddi|zuHause> looks "impressionistic"...
15:07:09 <peter1138> i was thinking "gimpressionist" in that ;)
15:07:25 <Elukka> i rather like the simple slightly pixelated one
15:07:26 <V453000> how is that re-drawn?
15:07:52 <peter1138> V453000, algorithms
15:08:09 <V453000> quite interesting, not a bad result for something automated I guess
15:08:29 <Elukka> photoshop and other graphics programs make it look quite good at 2x
15:08:38 <peter1138> guessing from information that isn't there
15:09:26 <V453000> I consider extra zoom quite useless, but good job I would say :)
15:09:45 <V453000> does it take a lot of processing power?
15:10:00 <V453000> compared to ... 1000 trains?
15:10:10 <peter1138> it's scaled then cached
15:10:16 <Elukka> enlarge sprite at... 300% maybe? looks good to me
15:10:51 <V453000> dont know I always hated enlarging images :)
15:10:53 <andythenorth> photostrop-pressionistic :P
15:11:06 <andythenorth> simple pixel enlargement works for me :P
15:11:11 <andythenorth> that's how I draw the damn things anyway
15:11:29 <Elukka> i don't think it does anything more fancy than just making every pixel double its original size
15:11:32 <andythenorth> quite often in the game I hit 'cmd+' expecting it to get bigger :P
15:11:40 <Elukka> you can still see the original pixels in that pic
15:11:51 <andythenorth> could we include a pixel editor in the game?
15:11:53 <Elukka> there's no impressionistic blur :P
15:12:04 <peter1138> well it's still 8bpp ;)
15:12:06 <andythenorth> and maybe link grfcodec :P
15:12:09 <V453000> :D what for andy? Realtime sprite drawing? :D
15:12:22 * andythenorth has been there, done that, got the xml t-shirt
15:12:26 <peter1138> andythenorth, you're sick
15:12:34 <andythenorth> 'live editing of copy right inside your flash game'
15:12:49 <andythenorth> spend three months writing a content management system and inline editor
15:12:59 <andythenorth> or spend 1 week editing copy in xml docs by hand
15:13:06 <andythenorth> 'but think of the time saved'
15:13:57 <andythenorth> realtime editing of cargo classes *in the game*
15:14:00 <andythenorth> problem solved :o
15:14:12 <V453000> dont know I just draw sprites so far, no coding, and that already takes so much time that I am unsure whether coding is going to be anyhow crucially long in compare to that
15:14:13 <andythenorth> no seriously, just let the user reassign classes at will in game
15:14:23 <andythenorth> permanent fallback
15:14:33 <peter1138> using the sprite aligner tool messes things up :D
15:15:00 <peter1138> cos the aligner doesn't know that sprites are gui or viewport
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15:30:43 <Eddi|zuHause> how's that relevant?
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16:11:29 <Belugas> ooo.... it's 11:11, the 11/11/11 and i'm still alive!
16:11:51 <Belugas> as some one said once, it's just a number...
16:12:03 <Rubidium> now we only have to wait for 11/11/11 11:11:11.1111 -11
16:12:28 <andythenorth> is that dec or hex? :P
16:12:37 <andythenorth> @calc 11/11/11 11:11:11.1111 -11
16:12:37 <DorpsGek> andythenorth: Error: invalid syntax (<string>, line 1)
16:20:25 <peter1138> 1111 milliseconds precisely :D
16:20:42 <andythenorth> which timeszone?
16:21:36 <andythenorth> somewhere like that
16:21:58 * andythenorth is too lazy to google
16:22:02 <andythenorth> why google when you guess?
16:22:28 <Rubidium> UTC-11 is Samoa/Midway
16:28:39 <Belugas> Samoa...samosa... hungry
16:37:04 <Belugas> so...next big date is wht? 12/12/12 at 12:12:12? or 13/12/11 at...10:09:08?
16:50:19 <andythenorth> Belugas: I thought my baby might get born today
16:50:45 <andythenorth> if not 11(r) then maybe 15.14 on 13/12/11
16:51:04 <Belugas> or not the same baby...
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16:52:43 <Belugas> my sincere ... condoleances ;)
16:53:36 <peter1138> just spotted usb keys in my pocket
16:55:23 <peter1138> andythenorth is a rabbit :D
16:56:06 <andythenorth> Belugas: the boy / girl situation is a bit schrodinger at the moment
16:56:12 <andythenorth> it's presumably one or the other
16:57:01 <peter1138> OpenTTD already knows how many tiles it takes to bring a train to a stop, it is calculated every time you press the stop button to stop a train.
16:58:07 <peter1138> i suppose it is possible to calculate it
16:58:22 <peter1138> but you need to know which route you're taking, and things like slopes...
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17:06:07 <peter1138> the last question? lolwut?
17:07:28 <peter1138> i *think* he's saying that it should all be class-based
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17:22:56 <peter1138> hmm, did field fences get changed?
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17:23:45 <peter1138> they're ... not right :(
17:23:57 <peter1138> hmm, only on steep slopes
17:27:41 <Yexo> peter1138: that's one of the new tables with magic values
17:27:52 <andythenorth> lolwut indeed. Seems to be a proposal for a whole new layer of crap
17:28:10 <andythenorth> which is somehow both easier, simpler , more powerful than what we have now
17:28:20 <andythenorth> I'll buy that for a dollar :P
17:28:28 <Yexo> anybody knows of a good gui for git under windows?
17:29:42 <dihedral> people at work use it
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17:31:39 <Yexo> any experience with it? I've used gitgui a few years ago
17:34:00 <dihedral> it's suppose to be very similar with tortoise svn
17:34:06 <dihedral> but i never used the git one
17:34:18 <dihedral> it basically integrates into windows explorer
17:34:28 <dihedral> gives you extra options in the context menu
17:34:51 <dihedral> and has overlay icons in order to display a files / folders status
17:35:07 <dihedral> anyway - i am off for today - heading home ;-)
17:40:55 <michi_cc> Yexo: I'd stay with git gui/gitk. Might not be the best looking GUI, but it does what you want. Offhand for windows I think there's also git-cola and SmartGit (there are some others but I don' think they have windows binaries).
17:42:00 <Yexo> I've also found gitextensions, which has a msvc plugin
17:44:28 <Yexo> perhaps I should just stay on the commandline
17:45:59 <andythenorth> command line ftw
17:46:53 <michi_cc> For viewing the commit graph gitk is clearly superior to command line "git log". The only thing I additional use is git gui [citool] because staging individual hunks and lines there is easier than the "git add -i" way.
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18:01:48 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23188 /trunk/src/table/clear_land.h: -Fix (r23168): fences on steep slopes were broken
18:06:16 <peter1138> gitg/giggle might be handy... oh, but not on windows .hmm.
18:12:21 *** lobstaroooo has joined #openttd
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18:27:21 <peter1138> TaI's scrabble mode :D
18:33:28 *** lobstaroooo has joined #openttd
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23189 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 1 changes by Wowanxm
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: croatian - 49 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:01 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: finnish - 3 changes by jpx_
18:46:02 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: french - 31 changes by Muxy
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18:59:22 <Snail_> speaking about translations, I just corrected one Italian string
18:59:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23190 /trunk/src/3rdparty/squirrel/squirrel/sqbaselib.cpp: -Fix: compile error due to Squirrel define messing up another included file
19:01:52 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 minute before the compile run? :)
19:02:23 <Snail_> heh, I only checked and discovered it now :)
19:02:24 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: nah, a massive 13 seconds!
19:03:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Snail_: sorry, didn't mean you
19:15:04 <andythenorth> classes have disappeared into the usual black whole of 'wtf is the spec'
19:15:14 <andythenorth> maybe I should write some nfo instead :)
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19:47:30 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23191 /trunk/src/table/palettes.h: -Fix: GCC 4.7 compilation warnings related to narrowing in palettes
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19:57:08 <z-MaTRiX> peter1138<< i have cut apples with the ceramic knife, straight cuts will not brown ;>
19:57:45 <andythenorth> did something break cargo FF?
19:58:45 <Eddi|zuHause> could be a side effect of the grfv8 stuff. but what's the exact problem you face?
19:58:48 <andythenorth> I have some vehicles that don't appear to be using the cb varact 2s I have for buy menu
19:58:55 <andythenorth> must be an issue in my code
20:00:05 * andythenorth wishes apple would invent perpetual battery
20:00:29 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone thinks "underline cities in minimap/viewport/town list" is a useful feature?
20:01:02 <andythenorth> what would it look like?
20:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> depends on the implementation...
20:02:03 <andythenorth> [2011-11-11 20:00:45] dbg: [grf] Callback 0x0x101d873d1 returned unknown/invalid result 0x0x23
20:02:09 <andythenorth> definitely my mistake :P
20:02:33 <Eddi|zuHause> are you using grfv8 stuff yet?
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20:03:19 <andythenorth> it's clearly some idiocy by me
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20:04:04 <Eddi|zuHause> has the "cb36 with GOOD as first refittable" problem been solved with grfv8?
20:04:22 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: not afaik
20:14:01 <andythenorth> I'm missing something
20:14:08 <andythenorth> I can't see what
20:14:15 <andythenorth> cb36 appears to be working as expected
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20:19:35 <andythenorth> cb23 can't be broken because other vehicles show it ok
20:21:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't help you there
20:22:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the last time i touched cb23, i immediately triggered its limits...
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20:24:42 <andythenorth> it seems to hate my use of a non D0 text
20:26:08 <andythenorth> B4 8C as return value gives me text B4 DC?
20:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it's only D0..D3, how can DC be valid then?
20:27:42 <andythenorth> I don't have a specific rev, but this text works with my YACD binary
20:27:53 <andythenorth> I can figure that out in a minute I guess
20:27:55 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i am mixing up stuff
20:28:06 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't ever used NFO string-ids
20:28:12 <andythenorth> D0 works, DC doesn't
20:28:26 <andythenorth> maybe I misread spec
20:28:48 <andythenorth> maybe I was relying on a bug
20:30:09 <andythenorth> "As of r1908, text IDs D100..D3FF may also be returned."
20:31:47 * andythenorth was relying a bug
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20:53:51 <andythenorth> stupid capacity display (when mail is first refit) :\
21:13:09 <appe> __ln___: the ignorance in germany is appalling..
21:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: what makes you reach that conclusion?
21:19:40 <__ln___> appe: that's right, any unseen star trek episode contributes to an individual's ignorance.
21:20:22 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln___: i must have loads of ignorance than, because i have seen hardly any TOS episode
21:20:28 <__ln___> (but i would also like to hear the answer to what Eddi asked)
21:21:47 <__ln___> Eddi|zuHause: yes... tbh, i have only seen 2 seasons of TOS myself.
21:22:48 <__ln___> and those i watched during this summer/autumn
21:23:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen maybe half a dozen episodes...
21:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> plus the movies, of course
21:25:33 <peter1138> so are you going to reserve paths through signals?
21:28:55 <peter1138> been ages since i watched any
21:29:18 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe michi_cc has already some preliminary code regarding the matter
21:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> he's the new "i have a patch for that" guy :)
21:29:45 <andythenorth> what's the maximum HP I can return to an RV with cb36?
21:29:51 <andythenorth> iirc it's byte sized
21:30:27 <Eddi|zuHause> how can HP be byte sized?
21:30:44 <Eddi|zuHause> how are you making engines with 6000HP then?
21:31:00 <peter1138> it's not particularly unified :(
21:31:11 <andythenorth> for, no doubt, hysterical raisins
21:31:12 <peter1138> presumably 2550 is the max
21:31:17 <andythenorth> it's always such fun setting props :)
21:31:25 <andythenorth> silly old patch :)
21:31:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, i did propose unifying of such units for grfv8
21:31:45 <peter1138> would be nice to make all the common properties... er.. common
21:31:51 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: propose louder :P
21:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i got an answer like "if you use nml, it doesn't matter anyway"
21:33:35 <andythenorth> I'm not using nml
21:33:40 <andythenorth> nor am I planning to
21:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, and frosch's answer of "we cannot change the size of variables", which means we need to make new ones anyway, so unrelated to grfv8
21:33:54 <andythenorth> that's a good reason
21:35:23 <peter1138> so how does one calculate stopping distance? :D
21:35:53 <andythenorth> s=d/t I learnt in school
21:36:01 <andythenorth> and then there's an acceleration formula
21:36:08 <andythenorth> which you turn upside down
21:36:12 <Eddi|zuHause> v/100*v/100 i learned in driving school
21:36:15 <andythenorth> it was an A-level maths question
21:36:31 <Eddi|zuHause> or something around that
21:36:34 <andythenorth> how do you calculate stopping distance if a driver uses variable braking?
21:37:06 <Eddi|zuHause> so for 100km/h you get 100m
21:37:51 <peter1138> how many tiles is 100m?
21:38:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt a train can do that :p
21:38:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: in CETS, a tile is 32m
21:40:44 <peter1138> well, reserve up to the next signal after the breaking distance
21:40:52 <peter1138> so it's still about signals
21:40:59 <peter1138> and screw the people not using path signals
21:42:01 <Eddi|zuHause> well, people using block signals will just reserve one tile at a time, on each vehicle_enter_tile
21:42:49 <peter1138> also do you need things like braking properties
21:43:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if that tile is a signal, the state is checked whether red or green, if green, it is forced to green, all other signals in the block get red, as if a train were in the block
21:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> braking properties could be filled with default values based on weight
21:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> and newgrfs get properties to override that
21:44:08 <Eddi|zuHause> with "realistic" values
21:44:22 <peter1138> i love how currently it's just the inverse of engine power :p
21:44:25 <andythenorth> I like the quick stop :)
21:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there will still be the "emergency stop" mode, but it will be difficult to trigger
21:44:54 <andythenorth> inverse of engine power might be correct for trains where only the engine has brakes
21:44:59 <peter1138> also while you're at it, ship acceleration :p
21:45:12 <andythenorth> ship acceleration is wonderful
21:45:20 <andythenorth> it also makes smoke completely pointless
21:45:27 <andythenorth> as the smoke is only shown when acclerating
21:45:31 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: so when a ship turns, it goes sideways?
21:45:35 <andythenorth> and ships accelerate rather fast
21:45:46 <andythenorth> did I ever mention ship smoke before? :P
21:46:24 <peter1138> smoke should be shown when powered is being used
21:46:28 <peter1138> but ships don't have power :D
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21:47:02 <andythenorth> sailing ships don't have power
21:47:14 <peter1138> they don't smoke either
21:47:35 <Eddi|zuHause> should also affect planes!
21:47:40 <andythenorth> effect sprites for sails!
21:48:06 <andythenorth> how much should this tram cost?
21:49:54 <Eddi|zuHause> for CETS i (try to) take a real price, and scale it to 4% inflation based on 1920
21:52:09 <appe> Eddi|zuHause, __ln___: let me add: the german government still seems to think ww2 to be something else but history.
21:52:35 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: how has the german government have anything to do with this?
21:52:59 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: thats the ignorance im talking about. as far as i know, that episode wasnt even legal to air?
21:53:05 <andythenorth> how does this get cargo classes fixed?
21:53:10 <bd97> how many plane can we have per international airport,
21:53:27 <andythenorth> godwin event avoided by genuine questions
21:53:32 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: you're making no sense
21:54:14 <peter1138> if you read the article, it states it was legal to show
21:54:49 * appe returns to his break vans
21:55:20 * peter1138 breaks appe's brake vans
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21:55:43 <appe> it's british, itl break by itself.
21:56:56 <peter1138> yay, openttd built in mingw :D
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21:57:11 <peter1138> now... any r23191 servers ? :P
21:58:00 <peter1138> hm, i forgot about the network server list being slow
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22:01:10 <andythenorth> which is about 25p in new money
22:01:31 <WINDCENT> Have a question for you all :-) I'm trying to set up a dedicated server on my Linux server with a terminal window. Is there a place to download a standard tar.gz file, the only thing I find is a .deb file, not familiar with .deb file, but undertand that it's not possible to install this via terminal window.
22:02:01 <WINDCENT> The server is on the opposite side of the world.
22:02:25 <peter1138> a .deb is a debian package file
22:02:25 <__ln___> not possible to install a .deb through terminal??
22:03:00 <peter1138> is it a debian-based server?
22:03:25 <peter1138> just download a linux generic binary
22:03:33 <peter1138> that should "just work", no installation needed
22:04:40 <andythenorth> can I be arsed to fix this mail capacity stupidity
22:04:48 <andythenorth> capacity: 60 mailbags
22:04:56 <andythenorth> but then when you build it: 120 mailbags
22:05:27 <WINDCENT> ahh.. there it was... the generic.... thanks... It's an ubunu
22:20:35 <peter1138> return min(-force - resistance, -10000) / mass;
22:21:08 <peter1138> so braking power is directly related to the force provided by the engine? :D
22:21:42 <andythenorth> 'engine braking'
22:21:53 <andythenorth> peter1138 probably quite realistic for dynamic braking
22:22:03 <andythenorth> you don't want to lose the air on a big freight
22:26:04 <andythenorth> peter1138: how about freight trains that have to make a brake set on down slopes > 1 tile long ?
22:26:59 <andythenorth> freights go slower down big grades IRL; in openttd we just let the physics pull them down faster
22:27:47 <peter1138> basically that's just max-speed based on stopping distance
22:27:57 <peter1138> instead of stopping distance from current speed
22:28:42 <peter1138> but yes, things like slopes affecting stopping distance is one of the complexities of calculating the distance
22:28:50 <peter1138> or you could just do v/10*v/10...
22:29:27 <andythenorth> NO! It's not realistic :P
22:29:42 <peter1138> true, you could just make it up :D
22:29:51 <andythenorth> I am going to measure your pixels, and if you're one over or under on stopping distance, I want my money back
22:30:41 * andythenorth can't solve the mail refit lies
22:30:46 <andythenorth> maybe I'll just close that ticket
22:32:33 <andythenorth> maybe I should start a railtypes newgrf for YAIM
22:32:39 <andythenorth> do railtypes have classes?
22:33:19 <andythenorth> do they have labels? :P
22:33:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, they don't have lice
22:34:17 <andythenorth> labels have lice
22:34:21 <andythenorth> who's in charge of them?
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22:35:18 <andythenorth> oh joy, there's loads of railtype labels already
22:36:21 * andythenorth goes off the idea of railtype newgrf
22:40:24 <Eddi|zuHause> it's only getting more joyful with "roadtypes" :p
22:43:50 <andythenorth> the only use I have for them is steam trams without catenary :P
22:44:50 <Eddi|zuHause> overhead tram, lightrail, ...
22:45:30 <Eddi|zuHause> "lightrail" being a special kind of tram that only goes off-road, but has increased speed
22:52:01 <andythenorth> what does a railtype grf need?
22:52:12 <andythenorth> 'good' and 'cheap' rail types?
22:52:35 <andythenorth> if I offer railtypes, do I have to deal with elrail and such crap?
22:52:47 <andythenorth> i.e. provide variants with catenary and so on
22:53:30 <Eddi|zuHause> although you don't need to draw catenary, just set a flag
22:54:03 <andythenorth> can I reuse base set sprites?
22:54:32 <andythenorth> track, crossings, catenary etc
22:54:59 <andythenorth> iirc the base set sprites might be a bit broken for railtypes, I looked when I was doing crossings
22:55:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know about track or crossings
22:55:58 <Eddi|zuHause> other than just keeping the default tracks in
22:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> the default railtypes
22:56:23 <andythenorth> I have enough sets in progress
22:59:59 <TrueBrain> "It is amazing how many people can use the internet day in and day out, without actually knowing how to use it" :D
23:00:06 <TrueBrain> (fun quote of the day :P)
23:00:28 <Eddi|zuHause> same can be said about cars
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23:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> we had fog all week, sight between 80m and 150m.
23:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> guess how many times i have been stuck behind people using the fog light (only to be used with sight below 50m)
23:01:43 <TrueBrain> default for many people: it looks foggy, lets put on my fog light
23:01:53 <TrueBrain> then again, I doubt they know how much 50m is :D
23:03:32 <michi_cc> TrueBrain: For Germany the moment you can't see the next "Leitpfosten" on a straight road with no intersection.
23:03:45 <TrueBrain> michi_cc: that you know ... now tell all the other car users :P
23:04:08 <michi_cc> They should've learned that in driving school.
23:04:31 <TrueBrain> should have, would have, could have :D
23:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> my suspicion is that 20% of the people would not pass the license exam again
23:05:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that's more than enough
23:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of "play the lottery, and help kids" commercials they should show a driving safety clip each time before the news...
23:07:23 <TrueBrain> they started a commercial here to promote taking pictures of criminal activity (mostly because human memory is faulty by design). Kinda nice for a change :)
23:26:20 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: You want a revival of "Der 7. Sinn"? :)
23:26:55 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: something like that, yes
23:32:01 <Eddi|zuHause> there was an east german variant of that, of which i forgot the name...
continue to next day ⏵
