IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-06
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07:55:41 <andythenorth> morfing
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08:01:38 * andythenorth ponders
08:01:53 <Rubidium> ... breakfast?
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08:03:17 <andythenorth> good idea
08:04:31 <andythenorth> also - how to allow changing newgrf parameters without inserting a small bomb into various bits of openttd
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08:09:42 <andythenorth> enable / disable vehicles in buy menu for one example
08:09:47 <andythenorth> change running costs for another
08:10:04 <andythenorth> specific hooks for this in openttd seems wrong
08:10:31 <andythenorth> but verifying generic code to show it doesn't cause kaboom seems impossible
08:11:04 <andythenorth> and changing a parameter in one grf might be safe....
08:11:25 <andythenorth> ...but another grf might decide to disable, then...kaboom!
08:12:12 <Terkhen> good morning
08:12:54 <andythenorth> hola
08:13:35 <andythenorth> what possible good case is there for a grf to disable itself based on *parameters* of another grf?
08:13:42 <peter1138> andythenorth, one way to do it is to store the complete state of everything before and after the change
08:13:57 <peter1138> of course, it'll be different, otherwise there wouldn't be a parameter
08:14:01 <peter1138> so it's unsafe :P
08:14:09 <andythenorth> he
08:14:36 <andythenorth> I suppose I could code a vehicle that depended on a vehicle in another set for some complex reason
08:14:47 <andythenorth> and then I might want to disable my grf if the vehicle is not available
08:15:01 <andythenorth> but there's maybe a better way to do that
08:15:29 <andythenorth> or I might insist that you can't play my grf unless you also have FISH present, with running costs set to High...
08:15:37 <andythenorth> ...because you must only play the game the way I choose
08:16:45 <andythenorth> so basically we have tens of newgrf authors writing explodey code against other people's code, which could be changed at any time.
08:16:52 <Terkhen> yes :D
08:16:58 <andythenorth> how many grfs are known to disable based on other grfs parameters?
08:17:30 <peter1138> it's not just other grfs
08:18:01 <peter1138> say, a parameter that causes vehicles in the set to be different
08:18:26 <peter1138> heh, dbsetxl does that without a parameter anyway :p
08:18:33 <peter1138> (wagon speed limits)
08:18:34 <andythenorth> different how?
08:18:49 <andythenorth> (different in ways that lead to 'kaboom')?
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08:19:35 <peter1138> why do you want parameter changing so bad?
08:19:59 <andythenorth> I like it :)
08:20:03 <andythenorth> why do I want anything so bad :P
08:20:27 <peter1138> you like changing parameters mid-game?
08:20:33 <andythenorth> I do it quite often
08:20:44 <peter1138> how weird
08:20:46 <andythenorth> mostly I like the idea that players can turn off my stupid HEQS vehicles
08:21:16 <peter1138> that is going to break
08:21:26 <andythenorth> nah
08:21:29 <andythenorth> it's fine
08:21:38 <andythenorth> just change the climate byte
08:21:40 <andythenorth> proven tactic
08:21:54 <Terkhen> they can also turn them off by not playing with the NewGRF
08:22:16 <peter1138> or they can just not use them
08:22:24 <andythenorth> true indeed
08:22:30 <andythenorth> the other one is running costs
08:22:35 <Terkhen> I don't know much about the differences between different GRF versions, but would making all dates extended be possible and/or desirable?
08:22:46 <andythenorth> 'running costs' and 'buy costs' parameters are springing up like daisies
08:22:58 <andythenorth> but they make setting up a game an exercise in accounting
08:23:11 <andythenorth> start game, write down costs for all the grfs you want to use, test a bit
08:23:26 <andythenorth> end game, setup new game with new combination of parameters
08:23:29 <andythenorth> test again
08:23:31 <peter1138> well tell the set authors not to do silly things
08:23:50 <andythenorth> like run cost parameters?
08:24:11 <Terkhen> why are those silly?
08:24:15 <andythenorth> well they are
08:24:27 <andythenorth> they're silly because they're not actually useful
08:24:37 <andythenorth> unless you have newgrf developer tools on
08:24:52 <andythenorth> they're kind of pointless to most players imho
08:25:08 <andythenorth> bleargh
08:25:16 <Terkhen> you can always set them up correctly before starting the game
08:25:29 <andythenorth> what's "correct" though? Without testing?
08:25:44 <Terkhen> you need to test, of course
08:25:48 * andythenorth invents a 'transformation layer' which sits between grf and game, and allows player to change things which are safely mutable
08:26:15 <andythenorth> e.g. openttd provides a 'tweak costs' gui for each and every grf that defines things base costs
08:26:26 <andythenorth> :o
08:26:40 <peter1138> personally i prefer to play the game
08:27:18 * andythenorth prefers to poke at newgrf code :P
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09:10:12 <andythenorth> hmm
09:10:20 <andythenorth> changing cargo classes in a FIRS nightly...
09:10:38 <andythenorth> is that savegame-breaking enough to require a version bump?
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09:18:40 <andythenorth> ach
09:18:42 <andythenorth> it's a nightly
09:21:45 <Terkhen> what cargo classes are you changin?
09:21:50 <Terkhen> changing*
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09:26:02 <andythenorth> scrap
09:26:10 <andythenorth> plant fibres
09:26:14 <andythenorth> maybe lumber (not sure)
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09:27:53 <Terkhen> IMO the cargos that are shared with other sets should also share cargo classes, otherwise you will break many sets supporting FIRS
09:28:15 <Terkhen> unless they are not sharing cargo classes already :P
09:29:00 <andythenorth> I am going to unshare one or more classes
09:29:10 <andythenorth> classes / labels /s
09:29:21 <andythenorth> trying to reuse labels was not entirely wise
09:29:32 <Elukka> why not keep compatibility? i mean, i don't get the fundamental importance of whether scrap is piece goods or bulk or whatever
09:30:04 <andythenorth> Terkhen: we tried to reuse some labels for some cargos, but the cargos are not the same, which leads to lots of head-scratching about whether classes are broken :P
09:30:13 <andythenorth> (if that makes sense)
09:30:20 <andythenorth> the problem is mostly that FIRS has been doing it wrong
09:30:50 <andythenorth> the class system, and all the current definitions are exactly right
09:31:22 <Terkhen> I see, then you should not change cargo classes, you should add new cargo labels
09:31:28 <Terkhen> but that will be confusing too :)
09:31:43 <Terkhen> I tend to agree with Elukka
09:32:15 <Elukka> unless there's something that really doesn't make sense, i guess
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09:33:05 <andythenorth> Terkhen: I'm going to add new labels where they are needed, and change classes where that's not going to break anything
09:34:47 <Terkhen> why are those changes needed?
09:36:07 <andythenorth> because they have the wrong classes ;)
09:37:12 <Terkhen> and? it works
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09:37:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23123 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4790] (r22792): variable was initialised at the wrong moment making things with the cursor go wrong
09:38:04 <andythenorth> not really
09:38:22 <andythenorth> it requires vehicle set authors to add FIRS specific support, which is bad behaviour by FIRS
09:38:46 <Terkhen> in which cases is that happening?
09:39:45 <andythenorth> scrap, plant fibres
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09:40:00 <andythenorth> lumber is a different weird case that is probably not going to change
09:40:04 <andythenorth> also wood
09:41:03 <andythenorth> and sugar cane
09:41:15 <Terkhen> wood is different from vanilla wood?
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09:41:22 <peter1138> reusing labels? hmm
09:41:36 <Terkhen> also, plant fibres is shared, in which way is it different?
09:41:50 <andythenorth> plant fibres is bulk in ECS
09:41:53 <andythenorth> but not bulk in FIRS
09:42:08 <Yexo> that is really bad
09:42:12 <Terkhen> yup
09:42:52 <Terkhen> andythenorth: if you plan to change cargos, take your time and choose a definitive scheme
09:42:58 <andythenorth> I did
09:43:06 <andythenorth> you missed yesterday ;)
09:43:30 <Terkhen> I have to say that it wasn't very difficult for me to add FIRS support to ogfx-rv
09:43:38 <Terkhen> so I don't see many reasons for change
09:43:45 <andythenorth> this won't break vehicle set support, it's class based
09:43:47 <Terkhen> if it has to be changed... keep it simple :P
09:44:06 <andythenorth> if "classes may never be changed" then classes are broken
09:44:50 <Yexo> why would classes ever change?
09:44:58 <Yexo> and yes, in principle classes should never change
09:45:14 <Terkhen> the point is to give vehicle set authors a fixed frame for implementing cargo support :P
09:45:26 <Yexo> a vehicle includes and excludes some classes, than adds specific support for cargos not in those classes
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09:45:51 <Yexo> if one of those cargo's was sudenly in an included class the special case would suddenly disable instead the cargo (it's a xor-mask)
09:46:18 <Yexo> so basically whenever the cargo classes of a cargo change you tisk breaking vehicle set support
09:47:33 <andythenorth> in that case I'm still confused :(
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09:48:46 <andythenorth> what is the point of classes at all?
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09:48:55 <andythenorth> do they do anything useful?
09:48:57 <Yexo> to provide some future compatibility
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09:49:17 <Yexo> if sets use cargo classes correctly vehicle sets can support cargos that don't exist at the time they were made
09:49:27 <andythenorth> it just seems very broken to me :(
09:49:30 <andythenorth> it makes no sense
09:49:34 <Yexo> not with special graphics, but by having at least one wagon that can transport them
09:50:26 <andythenorth> somewhere there is something very wrong about this system
09:50:59 <andythenorth> it's basically unusable :(
09:52:24 * andythenorth is depressed by it
09:52:51 <Terkhen> <--- with cargo classes I can define some "generic" containers; if a new cargo that fits any of them is created later, I don't need to implement support for it in my vehicle set
09:53:24 <Terkhen> this assumes that cargo classes for existing cargos are fixed, and that new cargos specified correctly will appear later
09:53:39 <Terkhen> if old cargos change their cargo classes, my set might lose support for them
09:53:57 <andythenorth> ^ that means classes are broken fundamentally
09:54:03 <Terkhen> broken how?
09:54:12 * andythenorth tries to explain
09:54:18 <andythenorth> hmm
09:54:22 <andythenorth> it's really clear in my head
09:54:27 <Yexo> why are they broken? If cargoclasses had been used correctly from the beginning there would never be a need to change them for existing cargos
09:54:27 <andythenorth> ok
09:54:31 <andythenorth> so
09:54:49 <andythenorth> the point of classes is to provide abstraction between vehicle sets and cargos?
09:55:16 <Yexo> partly, and partly to provide future compatibility with new cargos
09:55:30 <andythenorth> so when creating a vehicle newgrf, an author has two sets of cargo to consider: 'known' and 'unknown'
09:55:43 <andythenorth> the set of 'known' cargos are in the wiki, and have labels
09:55:53 <andythenorth> we use classes to provide support for 'unknown' cargos
09:56:12 <andythenorth> at this point if we have cargo A in the known set, and I code my vehicle grf all is good
09:56:24 <andythenorth> later cargo B appears, and is in the unknown set
09:56:25 <Terkhen> ideally, most if not all of the known cargos should also be supported via cargo classes
09:56:31 <andythenorth> I've set classes that can support cargo B
09:56:36 <Terkhen> yes
09:56:44 <andythenorth> now cargo A is changed, moving it into the 'unknown' set
09:56:51 <andythenorth> and suddenly everything goes 'boom' ?
09:56:58 <Yexo> andythenorth: since the refit properties are limited to the first 32 cargos from the cargo translation table, quite a lot of known cargos are also supported via classes
09:57:19 <Yexo> <andythenorth> now cargo A is changed, moving it into the 'unknown' set <- it only goes in the "unknown" set if it gets a new label
09:57:40 <Yexo> if you just change the classes the vehicle set still has it in the "known" set but makes wrong assumptions about it
09:57:43 <andythenorth> so to preserve the abstraction, the label must change? sounds reasonable
09:57:57 <Yexo> if you chagne the label you effectively create a new cargo
09:58:07 <andythenorth> in which case that sounds like a very valid solution
09:58:21 <Yexo> that means you have to specific cmopatibility in existing sets, so no special graphics etc.
09:58:34 <Yexo> but if the vehicle sets are than updated they can easily support both the old and the new label
09:59:15 <andythenorth> ok
09:59:20 <andythenorth> so none of us are smoking crack it seems
10:00:09 <andythenorth> this means I need to figure out a migration path for each of the cargos that will change
10:00:22 <andythenorth> which is fine
10:00:23 <andythenorth> thanks
10:01:45 <andythenorth> versioned cargo labels anyone? :P
10:01:51 * andythenorth will bbl
10:02:00 <andythenorth> thanks for the help
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10:19:48 <Spl1nt> site ever lol guys lets u send 10 free texts a day anywhere in the world free and anonymous .. if u sign up u get 50 ... i just sent 50 txts to a m8 lol he shit brix
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10:26:25 <TrueBrain> LOL!
10:26:41 <TrueBrain> who in this world is still interesting in that? YOU ARE OLD Spl1nt! :P
10:26:53 * Alberth cannot even read it
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10:38:36 <Wolf01> hello
10:38:44 <Wolf01> lol, it's peter's hour here
10:42:28 <TrueBrain> it is?
10:42:51 <Elukka> huh. never ran into irc spambots before
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10:45:12 <Wolf01> TrueBrain, sure: -> [11:38:44] <Wolf01> lol, it's peter's hour here
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10:57:06 <Wolf01> it would be possible to get the railtype with the query tool? with 8 railtypes I can't remember which one I used 6 months ago to build the line and they look enough similar to me
10:58:18 <Wolf01> ok, maybe if I enable the visualisation of catenary I only have to choose between 4 types
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11:12:02 <Qantourisc> Wolf01: wait 8 types ?
11:12:14 <Wolf01> nu-tracks
11:15:00 <Qantourisc> i don't understand nutracks :/
11:15:45 <Qantourisc> Wolf01: a workaround is trying to replace ... but that sounds bad
11:17:24 <Wolf01> np, I found it by trying to build a diagonal piece aside of an existing diagonal piece (a crossing would have worked too)
11:20:32 <Alberth> Wolf01: sounds like a useful thing to have
11:23:31 <Qantourisc>
11:23:50 <Qantourisc> Why is the train waiting ?
11:23:56 <Qantourisc> isn't the other path "good enough" ?
11:24:15 <Qantourisc> or is it because the other paths are "more costly" ?
11:24:51 <Wolf01> did you built the station with running trains?
11:25:02 <Qantourisc> "with running trains" ?
11:25:18 <Qantourisc> Hmmm i added road to increase the cost... and it took the other entrence now ...
11:25:36 <Wolf01> connected/removed a piece while a track was reserved
11:25:40 <Qantourisc> no
11:25:50 <Qantourisc> I added some road
11:25:55 <Qantourisc> and now he picks the other one
11:26:02 <Qantourisc> he must always pick the cheapest path then ?
11:26:05 <Qantourisc> (when trying to pass)
11:26:45 <Qantourisc> One for FAQ i quess ...
11:26:46 <Wolf01> the pathfinder always looks for the cheapest path
11:26:49 <Qantourisc> Can i upload that picture ?
11:27:00 <Qantourisc> or is it too ugly ? :)
11:27:47 <Yexo> Qantourisc: have you tried also placing path signals directly after the platform?
11:28:22 <Qantourisc> wouldn't that make the central stations even MORE cheap ?
11:28:39 <Qantourisc> Bad design i know though :)
11:28:46 <Yexo> it'd make the central platform free when there is a train waiting after the station, like in your image
11:28:50 <Alberth> what problem are you solving?
11:29:06 <Qantourisc> The train not taking the green path
11:29:12 <Yexo> as long as there is a train that platform the cost is very high because all tiles are occupied
11:29:27 <Alberth> why not?
11:29:29 <Yexo> I'm not sure if the pathfinding stops at the end of the station or if it continues to the next signal
11:29:39 <Yexo> if the latter, placing signals at the end of the platforms would help
11:29:44 <Qantourisc> Yexo: aa like that ... that might actually work :)
11:30:34 <Alberth> Yexo, Qantourisc: path signal blocks stop at the next signal
11:30:41 <Qantourisc> a ok good
11:30:44 <Qantourisc> fixed :)
11:30:49 <Yexo> Alberth: yes, but that's not the problem
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11:31:02 <Yexo> the question is where the pathfinder stops adding costs to the route
11:31:15 <Yexo> at the end of the platform or at the first signal after the platform
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11:32:14 <Qantourisc> presignal doesn't seemt to be affected by this though
11:32:26 <Qantourisc> Yexo: when you place them close it works.
11:32:42 <Yexo> if you use presignals you force a train to take any exit signal that is green, regardless whether it leads to it's destination or not
11:32:57 <Alberth> the former sounds illogical to me tbh, but I am not even sure what problem is being solved :)
11:33:41 <Yexo> I agree it sounds somewhat illogical, but if placing signals close the station works that might be it
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11:36:10 * Alberth does not see what conclusion is being drawn, but that's ok :)
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12:05:10 * andythenorth wonders what label to set for 'new' scrap metal
12:05:27 <andythenorth> SCPM perhaps?
12:09:20 <frosch123> packaged scrap metal? :p
12:10:03 <Alberth> SCRAP :)
12:10:14 <Alberth> hmm, too long :(
12:11:02 <Alberth> what's wrong with 'metal' ?
12:12:13 <andythenorth> Alberth: could use metal
12:12:31 <andythenorth> be a bit of an odd chain...deliver metal to the steel works to get metal...
12:12:33 <andythenorth> hmm
12:12:44 <andythenorth> one solution would be to delete the scrap metal cargo
12:12:55 <andythenorth> this would free a cargo slot and solve the class problem
12:12:57 <Alberth> yeah, you want to distinguish between shiny new metal and rusty old ones
12:12:59 <andythenorth> and I could remove an industry
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12:15:06 <Alberth> it'd be easy money, deliver produced metal back to the same industry :)
12:15:23 <andythenorth> you'd only get 4t out for your 8t in :P
12:15:48 <Alberth> or find 2, and transport back and forth, just like passengers :)
12:16:01 <andythenorth> another solution would be to swap the unit to 'crates' instead of 't'
12:16:07 <andythenorth> and leave it as piece goods
12:16:18 <andythenorth> hmm
12:16:35 <andythenorth> enforcing 'piece goods = crates', 'bulk = t' might have been a fun idea
12:16:49 <Alberth> do you have a paper chain, that has the same problem
12:16:52 <andythenorth> clearly 'liquid = l' already
12:17:02 <andythenorth> Alberth: no paper chain :D
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12:18:07 * Alberth proposes SCMT for scrap metal
12:18:11 <andythenorth> ok
12:18:30 <andythenorth> I'll add it to the wiki, and deprecate SCRP
12:19:15 <Alberth> but it does not really matter, does it? almost any 4 letters will do
12:19:31 <andythenorth> pretty much
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12:21:39 <andythenorth> this will be interesting
12:22:04 <andythenorth> I'll need to update HEQS to the new cargo. Which means it will lose support for the old scrap metal cargo
12:22:13 <andythenorth> I don't have enough CTT slots spare for backward compatibility
12:23:07 <andythenorth> it also means we now have two cargos called "Scrap Metal" listed in the wiki
12:24:16 * andythenorth shrug
12:26:38 <Yexo> if the cargo classes are now correct, you wouldn't need to have the new (or old) scrap metal in the first 32 entries of your CTT
12:27:04 <andythenorth> I have some vehicles which explicitly support scrap metal (and not much else)
12:27:14 <andythenorth> so they need scrap in the refit mask
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12:38:24 <andythenorth> hmm
12:38:28 <andythenorth> I've broken FIRS
12:38:39 <Terkhen> bbl
12:38:45 <andythenorth> changing the cargo label from SCRP to SCMT breaks the build
12:39:24 <andythenorth> nmlc: "sprites/nml/industries/recycling_plant.pnml", line 128: Unrecognized identifier 'SCRP' encountered
12:39:53 <Yexo> if you change the label in your CTT you also have to change all places where you use it
12:40:04 * andythenorth ...grep
12:40:07 <Yexo> and don't forget to change the cargo property that sets the label
12:40:36 <andythenorth> I think I did that :)
12:40:43 <andythenorth> that's probably *all* I did so far :P
12:41:02 <andythenorth> thanks
12:41:03 <Yexo> nah, you changed at least the cargo translation table too, or you wouldn't get that error
12:42:08 <andythenorth> find + replace in just one file = fail :)
12:42:53 <andythenorth> now I need to figure out how to add new classes
12:43:21 <andythenorth> Yexo: are cargo classes defined in FIRS code, or are they an nml macro?
12:43:44 <Yexo> the cargo property "cargo_classes" (it's in cargo_props.pnml)
12:44:01 <yorick> r23115 forgot to remove a comment
12:44:01 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_PIECE_GOODS); <- only piece goods
12:44:13 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_PIECE_GOODS, CC_BULK); <- both piece goods and bulk
12:44:38 <andythenorth> so if I need to define CC_NEO_BULK...?
12:44:41 <Yexo> list of constants:
12:44:50 <andythenorth> ok
12:44:58 <yorick> network_admin.cpp#234 should've been removed I think
12:45:08 <Yexo> you'd need to either define that via cpp "#define CC_NEO_BULK 13" (to use bit 13) or change the nml code
12:45:35 <andythenorth> I should probably just do it in FIRS for now
12:45:46 <andythenorth> want to test it to see what might go wrong
12:46:27 * andythenorth needs to learn to differentiate constant and macro in nml
12:46:38 <andythenorth> are macros always callable - ie. FOO()
12:47:04 <Yexo> a constant is simply a number in nml
12:47:13 <Yexo> macros are supported by gpp, not by nml
12:47:29 <andythenorth> so when I'm reading code - how do I distinguish one from the other?
12:47:44 <andythenorth> otherwise I ask the wrong question
12:47:54 <Yexo> 3 <- that's a constant
12:48:40 <andythenorth> and #define FOO = 3 is a define which will be replaced by the constant
12:49:07 <Yexo> ABC <- that can either be a define that gpp handles, or it's an identifier. An identifier is handled by nml and can actually be a lot of things. There are a lot of known identifiers that nml maps to a constant
12:49:16 <Yexo> like CC_PASSENGERS is mapped by nml to 0
12:49:22 <andythenorth> ok, I think that's why I find FIRS code so hard to understand
12:49:39 <andythenorth> all my previous code only used defines and includes, not anything else
12:49:57 <Yexo> think of the named nml constants as "#defines"
12:50:07 <Yexo> nml has a lot of buildins, like "#define CC_PASSENGERS 0"
12:50:39 <Yexo> gpp also supports parameters for defines, and in that case you can "call" them
12:50:46 <andythenorth> ok so that's all fine, I just need to remember to say 'constant' instead of 'define'
12:50:57 <Yexo> like: "#define ABC(a) (a + a)
12:51:11 <Yexo> if you than write "ABC(5)" later it's replaced by "(5 + 5)"
12:51:27 <Yexo> that's all done by the preprocessor, nml than later simplifies that 5+5 to 10
12:51:29 <andythenorth> so that's fairly dumb string replacement?
12:51:35 <Yexo> yes
12:51:44 <andythenorth> nothing is calculated?
12:51:54 <Yexo> not by the preprocessor
12:51:57 <andythenorth> ok
12:52:13 <Yexo> nml does calculate whatever it can at compile-time, so there is no problem with that
12:52:24 <Alberth> yorick: it is an extra explanation what is happening there
12:52:30 <Alberth> we have more such comments
12:52:34 <Yexo> it doesn't matter if you write "1+1+1+1" or "4", it'll result in exactly the same nfo/grf
12:52:42 <yorick> Alberth: except r23115 made it not happen anymore
12:53:08 <Alberth> oh
12:53:18 <yorick> or am I mistaken?
12:53:23 <andythenorth> hmm compile time compilation calculation is a brave new world
12:53:30 <andythenorth> :)
12:56:48 <Alberth> yorick: if (ci == NULL) return NETWORK_RECV_STATUS_OKAY; is still there, and the cs->GetInfo() seems to have moved up to the caller context
12:57:35 <Alberth> I'd say the comment is about that 'if', not about the info getting
12:59:32 <yorick> this->SendClientInfo(NULL, NetworkClientInfo::GetByClientID(CLIENT_ID_SERVER)); <-- it uses the info of the server
13:00:03 <andythenorth> he
13:00:09 * andythenorth puzzles over refit masks :0
13:00:13 <andythenorth> 1D 10 00 // Refittable cargo classes
13:00:14 <andythenorth> 1E EF 0B // Non-refittable cargo classes
13:00:23 <andythenorth> I've set a class to use bit 11
13:00:35 <Alberth> yorick what else can you do with cs == NULL ?
13:00:41 <andythenorth> so the mask above should give me bulk, excluding nearly everything else?
13:00:47 <Alberth> previously that would have crashed
13:01:19 <yorick> Alberth: it isn't called with ci == NULL anywhere
13:01:47 <yorick> I think the if should be changed to an assert
13:02:19 <yorick> (or can their be NULL cis in FOR_ALL_CLIENT_SOCKETS?)
13:02:55 <__ln__> yorick: are you still porting OpenTTD to C#?
13:02:56 <andythenorth> Yexo: #define CC_NEO_BULK 11 would give me a class on bit 11? I don't need to escape it? Or set 800 or anything?
13:02:57 <Yexo> andythenorth: that gives you all cargos that are bulk but not in any other class
13:03:05 <yorick> __ln__: I wasn't
13:03:08 <Yexo> andythenorth: no, that's enough
13:03:11 <andythenorth> hmm
13:03:15 <Yexo> bitmask(a) does that for you
13:03:18 <andythenorth> failing for me right now
13:03:26 <yorick> __ln__: I dislike C#
13:03:35 <Yexo> bitmask(4) == 0x10, bitmask(5) == 0x20, bitmask(4, 5) == 0x30 etc.
13:04:18 * andythenorth tests
13:04:23 <Yexo> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_NEO_BULK); <- that should work after your define
13:05:50 <andythenorth> and if there are two classes, they're comma separated for that prop?
13:05:56 <andythenorth> cargo_classes: bitmask(CC_BULK, CC_NEO_BULK);
13:06:04 <Yexo> yes
13:06:14 <andythenorth> FIRS appears to be setting them
13:06:23 <andythenorth> HEQS appears not to be paying attention to bit 11
13:06:49 <andythenorth> if I set 1E to FFFFh, it still doesn't exclude SCMT
13:07:14 <Yexo> if you set 1E to FFFFh it shouldn't be able to carry anything
13:07:23 <Yexo> except for those cargos you specially allow
13:07:35 <Alberth> yorick: it may depend on whether you consider the admin part 'someone trying to query the server'. (which it is not, I think)
13:07:52 * andythenorth tests a bit more
13:08:01 <Alberth> is it 1 ?
13:08:10 <yorick> the comment is confusing :-)
13:08:10 <andythenorth> let's try setting prop 16 to \wx00
13:09:00 <Alberth> yorick: it is english text, which is ambiguous by definition :)
13:09:12 <andythenorth> hmm
13:09:18 <andythenorth> my vehicle disappeared from the buy menu
13:09:30 <yorick> SendClientInfo shouldn't be called with ci == NULL, but it surely shouldn't fail silently if it is
13:09:41 <andythenorth> I guess 00000000h for prop 16 causes it to be hidden
13:09:41 <Yexo> if it can't carry anything (which you just accompliished) it's indeed removed from the buy menu
13:09:55 <andythenorth> so I have to have at least one type refittable?
13:10:01 <andythenorth> I can't just rely on classes
13:10:01 <Yexo> it's 0 for prop 16 in combination with FFFh for prop 1E
13:10:06 <andythenorth> ok
13:10:09 <Yexo> you can rely on classes
13:10:17 <Yexo> but you disabled every class, and than didn't enable any cargos
13:10:20 <andythenorth> yup
13:10:22 <Yexo> that means no cargos at all
13:10:23 <andythenorth> this makes sense
13:10:36 <andythenorth> this is fun :)
13:10:45 <andythenorth> ok
13:11:03 <andythenorth> ok so if I set 1D to 1000h and 1E to EFFFh I get...
13:11:12 <andythenorth> all the bulk cargos
13:11:25 <andythenorth> including SCMT, which also has bit 11 set for neo-bulk
13:11:33 <andythenorth> so the excluding isn't working :P
13:11:42 <andythenorth> or I'm not setting neo-bulk correctly :)
13:11:46 <Yexo> that's actually get you all covered cargo
13:12:06 <Yexo> hmm, wait
13:12:22 <Yexo> 1D to 1000h enables all neo-bulk
13:12:31 <andythenorth> really?
13:12:47 <andythenorth> it's possible that all my words have the wrong endian order
13:12:52 <Yexo> most likely
13:12:53 <andythenorth> and I might have just been lucky so far
13:12:57 <Yexo> how you write it in your nfo?
13:13:02 <Yexo> 1000h = 00 10 in nfo
13:13:08 <andythenorth> 1D 10 00 // Refittable cargo classes
13:13:08 <Yexo> or \wx1000
13:13:08 <andythenorth> 1E EF FF // Non-refittable cargo classes
13:13:17 <andythenorth> it's been like this for about 2 years :P
13:13:21 <Yexo> 10 00 in fno is usually written as 0010h
13:13:28 <andythenorth> oops
13:13:34 <Yexo> but that indeed enables all bulk
13:13:42 <andythenorth> interestink
13:13:55 <Yexo> and 1E EF FF disables everythingcept bulk
13:14:06 <Yexo> so you should only get cargoes that have bulk and no other classes set
13:14:10 <andythenorth> so plausibly, bit 11 is not being set by the cargo?
13:14:21 * andythenorth thinks how to check
13:14:49 <Yexo> could you send me your patch for firs?
13:15:17 <andythenorth> yup
13:16:50 <andythenorth> Yexo:
13:17:05 * andythenorth will be embarrassed if it's a typo :o
13:17:56 <Yexo> the patch looks fine
13:18:10 <andythenorth> have you got HEQS checked out?
13:18:50 <Yexo> not yet, but can easily do taht
13:19:01 <andythenorth> try editing any of the mining truck refits
13:19:14 <andythenorth> hopefully obvious where / how :)
13:19:44 <Yexo> ok, will try
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14:00:36 <Yexo> andythenorth: "1D 10 00" "1E EF FF" works fine for me
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14:00:52 <andythenorth> ok
14:00:57 <andythenorth> I must be doing something wrong :)
14:00:58 <Yexo> not refitable to scrap metal, but is refittable to bauxite, clay, coal, grain, iron ore, sand, stone and sugar beet
14:01:02 <andythenorth> perfect
14:01:27 <Yexo> "16 00 00 00 00" <- I set prop 16 to zero for this test
14:01:33 <Yexo> that can cdhange all those cargos of course
14:02:49 <andythenorth> hmm
14:02:56 * andythenorth might need a facepalm emoticon
14:03:20 <andythenorth> perhaps /me should try a vehicle that *isn't* articulated :P
14:04:18 <andythenorth> sorry :o
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14:19:56 * andythenorth wonders if a set of refitting conventions should be written and stuck in the wiki
14:21:16 <supermop_> sounds like a plan
14:22:39 <Terkhen> as soon as you get an agreement on said conventions :P
14:22:54 <andythenorth> :P
14:23:13 <andythenorth> if they could be baked in, then there's less headache
14:23:36 <andythenorth> maybe nml could encapsulate them, with some constant where you specify vehicle type
14:23:47 <andythenorth> and that's then expanded at compile time
14:24:13 <andythenorth> and if you want more detail, learn about the magic of the three different props that control refit :)
14:24:51 <andythenorth> there's only so many common types of road/rail vehicle
14:26:20 <andythenorth> flat bed, stake truck / bulkhead flat, open truck, box van with doors, hopper / dump truck, tanker, covered hopper / silo
14:26:39 <andythenorth> covered flat wagon (full width doors or curtain sides)
14:26:41 <andythenorth> reefer
14:27:00 <andythenorth> what did I miss?
14:28:01 * andythenorth updated the wiki with new classes
14:28:01 <andythenorth>
14:28:55 <Elukka>
14:33:58 * andythenorth ponders rearranging HEQS cargo translation table
14:34:42 <andythenorth> I don't refit anything to 'armoured', so I have slots wasted with VALU, GOLD, etc
14:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS has two parts for the translation tables, first the cargos that are used in refit lists, and second part the cargos that are needed for special graphics
14:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> although the whole scheme may need some retouching after an actual test game
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14:40:09 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like this:
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14:45:16 <Eddi|zuHause> a closed wagon then has a refit mask of: piece,expr,-pass,-overs,-liqu,BEER,MILK,-LVST
14:47:03 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what "expr" is actually used for, might want to leave that out
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14:51:47 <Sigvatr> hi
14:51:56 <Sigvatr> is the nearest town to a station the local authority?
14:52:08 <Sigvatr> i tried doing lots of advertising in the nearest town but my rating won't go up
14:52:09 <Sigvatr> its like 30% now
14:53:43 <TWerkhoven2> use the query tool on nearby land
14:53:56 <TWerkhoven2> in some odd cases, it might not be the town it seems
14:54:16 <Sigvatr> arghhh
14:54:19 <Sigvatr> fuck that game
14:54:31 <Sigvatr> maybe i should try and keep the stations closer to town centers
14:54:52 <Sigvatr> how do you improve a station rating if it isn't near a town?
14:54:52 * Alberth gives Sigvatr the 'erase from HD' tool.
14:55:00 <Sigvatr> haha no not the whole game
14:55:02 <Alberth> provide good service
14:55:07 <Sigvatr> just that one i was playing
14:55:24 <Alberth> always have a train collecting cargo, do fast delivery of the cargo
14:55:31 <Zuu> Also mind that the station location is where the sign is.
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15:13:28 <KOPOBA> hello what font and size of font you use for ottd? cant choose =(
15:13:48 <Zuu> You can in your openttd.cfg
15:14:04 <KOPOBA> yes i can
15:14:11 <KOPOBA> but cant choose
15:15:07 <yorick> KOPOBA: helvetica? droid sans may be ideal for the size too
15:15:23 <Zuu> I'm on Windows and us e"Tahoma" as small font. For the others, I use the default font.
15:15:44 <KOPOBA> yep helvetica is ok i think
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15:17:45 <KOPOBA> and what numbers you advice for 1024x768 ?
15:18:29 * Alberth uses standard openttd font at 1280x1024
15:19:02 <Zuu> KOPOBA: What is your screen size?
15:19:12 <Zuu> 17 or 19" ?
15:19:34 <KOPOBA> 17
15:20:34 <Zuu> Unless you have problem with your eye sight, the medium and large font is probably okay to use the built in font.
15:20:41 <Zuu> For small, a good size is 10.
15:21:22 <Zuu> If you need the custom font for russian characters, then try with the default sizes and see if they are good. If not change and try again.
15:21:57 <KOPOBA> what deffault size ottd use?
15:22:21 <Zuu> For small I think it is 8
15:22:31 <Zuu> medium := 10, large := 16 IIRC
15:23:18 <KOPOBA> ok rhanks
15:23:20 <KOPOBA> *thanks
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15:30:31 <Sigvatr> i verified that a farm was under a local authority of the nearby town
15:30:37 <Sigvatr> i bought advertising again and nothing happened
15:30:40 <Sigvatr> what the fuck is wrong with this game
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15:31:58 <Sigvatr> it worked in the past
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15:32:10 <Yexo> your station is probably not close enough to the town center
15:32:34 <Yexo> the only thing advertizing does it giving a temporary boost in station ratings for station close the to town
15:32:41 <frosch123> advertising only works for stations close to the center
15:33:02 <frosch123> so most stations near industries are not affected by any advertising
15:33:25 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23124 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Interpret the result of the refit cost callback as a signed value.
15:34:13 <frosch123> the advertising is restricted to stations with a manhattan distance <= 10 from the town center
15:34:31 <frosch123> (distance between town and station sign)
15:34:40 <Yexo> doesn't that depend on advertizing size?
15:35:02 <frosch123> oh, indeed
15:35:07 <frosch123> 10 for small, 15 for med, 20 for large
15:35:51 <frosch123> i thought it only had an effect on the amount
15:35:52 <andythenorth> so is it acceptable to extend classes on a default cargo, e.g. adding 'clean' to grain etc?
15:36:05 <andythenorth> and if yes, should that be done in ottd, or just industry sets
15:36:08 <andythenorth> ?
15:36:20 <Yexo> both
15:36:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the ingame description should probably be more verbose
15:37:46 <Sigvatr> and how does a farm produce 90 cows a month
15:37:54 <Sigvatr> they grow on cow trees
15:38:04 <andythenorth> 'clean' is on bit 12, unless anyone knows a reason it shouldn't b
15:38:05 <andythenorth> be
15:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> not 90 cows. 90 tons of cow
15:38:57 <Eddi|zuHause> when a cow weighs several tons, you get fewer cows
15:39:22 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: no, 90 items of livestock
15:39:33 <frosch123> it's a piece cargo, not builk
15:39:39 <andythenorth> it should be neo-bulk :P
15:39:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, ok
15:40:37 <andythenorth> actually livestock are a good indicator
15:40:45 <andythenorth> you can move cows in open wagons, or cattle trucks
15:40:50 <andythenorth> but you don't move them in box vans
15:40:57 <frosch123> @calc 3/16
15:40:57 <DorpsGek> frosch123: 0.1875
15:41:03 <andythenorth> although in Smokey and the Bandit 2, they moved an elephant in a box trailer
15:41:06 <frosch123> one cow actually only weights 187 kg
15:43:03 * andythenorth does an experiment
15:43:15 <andythenorth> wondering what happens if you set a class no vehicle sets know about
15:43:21 <andythenorth> but you have vehicles that refit anything
15:43:38 <andythenorth> hmm
15:43:41 <andythenorth> the answer is not good :P
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15:45:16 <frosch123> if the set authors were clever enough, they would have set the classes to 0x7FFF
15:45:31 <frosch123> if they want to transport all
15:45:41 <andythenorth> they haven't I bet :)
15:45:49 <andythenorth> I certainly didn't, although I am not clever
15:45:52 <andythenorth> just noisy
15:46:07 <frosch123> i think av8 actually does that
15:46:44 <andythenorth> hmm
15:46:45 <andythenorth> no
15:46:55 <andythenorth> you won't be transporting sugarcane by airplane :P
15:47:07 <andythenorth> I guess the safe thing is I set piece goods and neo-bulk
15:47:42 <frosch123> andythenorth: why not? just because it is expensive?
15:47:53 <Alberth> but those people in the west need sugar desperately!
15:48:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: because if I set just neo-bulk, you won't get any refittable planes :)
15:48:36 <andythenorth> it's a shame that we can't invent a way for grfs to subscribe to definitions of vehicle types, which are provided by ottd
15:48:51 <andythenorth> then we abstract away from old / unmaintained / slow releasing grfs
15:48:53 <frosch123> so, wagons which transport neo-bulk but exclude piece cargo won't be able transport it?
15:49:11 <andythenorth> frosch123: this is the downside of adding to a well-established class scheme :P
15:49:45 <andythenorth> a vehicle which transports neo-bulk, but excludes piece cargo is frankly made by someone who has been smoking crack
15:49:57 <andythenorth> transporting piece, but excluding neo-bulk is sane
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15:51:04 <andythenorth> or I can ship a version of FIRS with no vehicle support for some cargos ;)
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15:54:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23125 /trunk/src/viewport.cpp: -Codechange: Replace some 8s with TILE_SIZE / 2. (adf88)
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16:14:00 <z-MaTRiX> hii
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16:22:13 <supermop_> would it not have been easier to instead class cargoes by their means of unloading?
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16:24:50 <Sigvatr> how many wagons will fit in a 7 length station
16:27:55 <frosch123> depends on the length of the wagons
16:28:43 <frosch123> unless you use an outdated version of openttd, the depot gui will tell you the length of the train in number of tiles
16:33:42 <andythenorth> supermop_: wrt cargo classes - probably not
16:35:25 <andythenorth> classes are good, but they are part of a system that is both complex and complicated
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16:52:39 <Sigvatr> the train breaking down sound is so great, everytime i hear it i just think lol
16:52:46 <Sigvatr> especially when it happens to someone else's train
16:53:06 <Alberth> :)
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16:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> you should watch out when it happens to horses :p
17:01:38 <Sigvatr> something is wrong, i'm picking up goods from a factory with a full load, but once they arrive at a town, they don't get sold
17:01:45 <Sigvatr> i don't hear a kaching noise or any money go up
17:01:52 <Sigvatr> but the goods are offloaded anyway
17:01:56 <Sigvatr> is someone robbing my train
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17:02:41 <Eddi|zuHause> do they stockpile at the station?
17:03:44 <Eddi|zuHause> when you click on the station, does it say "200 crates of goods (from A-Town factory)"?
17:04:00 <Sigvatr> no
17:04:04 <andythenorth> ho ho
17:04:12 <andythenorth> no it's not christmas
17:04:22 <Sigvatr> can i click on a train to see what it is carrying
17:04:23 <Sigvatr> so i can be sure
17:04:33 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
17:04:36 * andythenorth has just finished fixing the lighting on HEQS trams, and they suck less
17:04:58 <Eddi|zuHause> click on the train, and in the train window, click on the details button
17:05:12 <Eddi|zuHause> (small sheet of paper on the right)
17:05:17 <Sigvatr> oh god i found out what is happening
17:05:19 <Sigvatr> they get to the station
17:05:22 <Sigvatr> and unload all the goods
17:05:25 <Sigvatr> then they put them on the train again
17:05:27 <Sigvatr> lol
17:05:40 <Sigvatr> why aren't they being sold
17:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> probably your station does not cover enough office buildings
17:06:02 <Eddi|zuHause> only those accept goods
17:06:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you typically need 3 of them
17:07:09 <Sigvatr> ok, i'll take them to a bigger town then
17:07:13 <Sigvatr> but still
17:07:14 <Sigvatr> lol
17:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> PS: if you use "unload all" orders, you should combine this with "no loading"
17:10:02 <Sigvatr> well basically my idea was that the trains would carry livestock and grain to the factory, then the factory would make shit and they would load the goods in while still at the factory, then deliver it to the town where the farm is
17:10:44 <Sigvatr> is it against the rules to build bridges over other people's railways
17:10:48 <Sigvatr> because i just got kicked and banned i think
17:10:55 <Sigvatr> i can't authorize to the server
17:11:39 <Sigvatr> never mind, connection problems
17:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> that is certainly not against any rules...
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17:15:03 <Yexo> Sigvatr: there are no universal rulse
17:15:18 <Yexo> the owner of every server decides what the rules on his/her server are
17:16:48 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: if you want peaple on your server :)
17:20:10 <michi_cc> Ladies and Gentleman, please have a game: :)
17:20:16 <michi_cc> Now with non-linear costs, signal costs and a severe penalty for those pesky all-way rail tiles. Enable it in Advaned Settings | Economy, play a game and watch detailed costs in the company window.
17:20:29 <michi_cc> Tinkering with the base costs in table/pricebase.h welcome, I can't test-play every kind of game style myself.
17:21:15 <andythenorth> michi_cc has been busy again :D
17:22:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't keep up with this...
17:22:33 <andythenorth> me neither :P
17:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i am seriously considering postponing any openttd-related stuff until christmas-ish
17:24:40 <andythenorth> I can't upgrade grfs fast enough to keep up with features :P
17:24:49 <Sigvatr> so to sell goods to a town, they need 3 commercial buildings?
17:24:54 <Sigvatr> how can i make them have more buildings
17:25:26 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there any summary for that patch, or would it be obvious if I compiled it?
17:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> the problem is, if i don't update CETS now, i a) forget everything, and b) i don't hit the next blocking limitation before the next feature freeze
17:32:19 <z-MaTRiX> hi
17:32:20 <z-MaTRiX> :)
17:32:37 <z-MaTRiX> ahaha the mactiny
17:33:58 * Eddi|zuHause is seriously considering the special friend list
17:37:32 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< what do you mean by that?
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17:39:21 <andythenorth> maybe I should stop fixing newgrf lighting and write nfo
17:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> learn nml ;)
17:40:18 <andythenorth> that will just slow things down even further :)
17:41:55 <Sigvatr> is it a good idea to have a train which carries nothing, but arrives and leaves a station frequently just to keep rating up?
17:42:19 <andythenorth> Sigvatr:
17:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Sigvatr: a vehicle only affects rating when it actually carries that cargo type
17:43:49 <Sigvatr> oh
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17:46:13 <frosch123> but it is a common cheat to have a small truck constantly loading and unloading again at the same station
17:47:12 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Very short summary: Regular maintenance costs for company owned tracks, roads and canals.
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17:49:35 <Sigvatr> why does all midi music ever written have to be jazz or salsa music
17:51:01 <frosch123> maybe other types of musics care about what instruments they are played with
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17:58:20 <appe> midi music might be the most horrible thing ever to haunt planet tellus.
17:58:33 <appe> it's like justin bieber times a googolplex
18:00:32 <Eddi|zuHause> i have seen people do crazy stuff with midi. like a "street organ orchestra". multiple organs that are synched by a midi device
18:00:59 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there a rebalancing aim, or is it just for fun? :)
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18:01:16 <appe> using a midi clock != midi music
18:01:23 <appe> midi music is that horrible windows music thingy
18:01:31 <appe> midi hardware is something fantastic
18:01:53 <michi_cc> andythenorth: It's for those that think making money is too easy.
18:02:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's something that was requested by MB :p
18:06:25 <andythenorth> how interesting
18:06:28 * andythenorth bbl
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18:15:40 <planetmaker> evening
18:17:42 <Terkhen> hi planetmaker
18:24:30 <z-MaTRiX> how would you rasterize a circle with x=212.111,y=333.5454,radius=333.222,linewidth=0.111 ? :)
18:25:21 <Alberth> take an infinitely small raster, and draw a circle
18:26:10 <z-MaTRiX> i'm currently writing the transfer function , and willing to render that
18:26:11 <Alberth> depending on your coordinate system, you may end up with a small dot :)
18:26:31 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about anti-aliasing/subpixel-rendering
18:26:34 <frosch123> ℝ² sounds like a useable raster for that
18:27:32 <michi_cc>
18:27:47 <michi_cc> YAIM - (Yet Another) Infrastructure Maintenance Patch
18:27:48 <Alberth> z-MaTRiX: define it in svg, and let the backend handle it?
18:28:00 <z-MaTRiX> that's too easy :(
18:28:28 <z-MaTRiX> though i'm the backend
18:28:43 <z-MaTRiX> using SDL only with a framebuffer
18:30:54 <frosch123> michi_cc: the catenary is stolen quite often, isn't it? :p
18:31:26 <frosch123> oh, i misread the statistics
18:32:05 <frosch123> what's "Tramawy"? :p
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18:32:25 <z-MaTRiX> Tramway ?
18:33:11 <z-MaTRiX> (used Artificial Interpolation)
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18:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23126 /trunk/src/lang/ (6 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: belarusian - 17 changes by Wowanxm
18:45:38 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 24 changes by eloekset
18:45:39 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: polish - 17 changes by nouwak
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: spanish - 17 changes by Terkhen
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: vietnamese - 17 changes by nglekhoi
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18:48:08 <z-MaTRiX> hi girl whatsup ?
18:48:59 <michi_cc> frosch123: A typo I guess :)
18:49:29 <Rubidium> michi_cc: you should iterate road types the same way as rail types in YAIM ;)
18:50:38 <Rubidium> s/rail/road/ (case insensitive but keeping the case) should do the trick
18:55:23 <michi_cc> frosch123: I don't see no typo anymore ;)
18:57:45 <frosch123> ♥ double negations
19:11:35 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: regarding those speed units: I wouldn't change them to something based on km/h as that will mean OpenTTD needs to internally go to km/h which means reintroducing that "bug" about vehicles not going the right speed
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19:13:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i guess the main point is a) all vehicles should use the same speed units, from nfo/nml perspective (to decouple from internal handling), and b) it should allow fractional values for less rounding errors.
19:17:00 <Rubidium> those fractional values don't play nice with the internal speed code
19:17:19 <Rubidium> (at least for trains and RVs)
19:17:48 <Eddi|zuHause> that's a secondary issue
19:17:50 <Rubidium> now they "encode" how far the vehicle can go in sub-unit units
19:18:16 <Rubidium> which means you need a fractional subspeed (which already is a fraction of sorts)
19:19:33 <Eddi|zuHause> the actually usable values might have lower resolution than the values provided by the grf. but the decoupling means the OpenTTD implementation may be switched later without influencing the grf specs
19:19:53 <Rubidium> true
19:20:34 <Rubidium> the question is whether less than ~0.5 km/h is really useful
19:20:43 <Rubidium> (in granularity)
19:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it is, when you want to model mph without rounding oddities
19:23:33 <Eddi|zuHause> with 1 mph ~ 1.6km/h
19:24:14 <Rubidium> I don't see why. With ~1 km/h I can imagine, well... prove, that one in N km/h can't be modelled with km-ish/h. But with 0.5 km-ish/h you can prove you can model each km/h and each mph
19:25:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought with one nibble as fixed point allows for better coding in hex values
19:26:48 <Rubidium> the main problem NML has is that OpenTTD's internal algorithm does some round at some points in the algorithm which means you'll get a slightly different result than when you perform all mathematical operations and then round
19:27:42 <Rubidium> but yes, a nibble might be usefull when working with hex
19:28:12 <Rubidium> on the other hand, a single bit might work better for decimal (just multiply by 2)
19:28:45 <Alberth> (x >> 3) * 2 ?
19:29:33 <Rubidium> no, if you want 74 km-ish/h, then write \w148
19:29:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: how is *2 easier than *16 in decimal? :)
19:30:10 <Alberth> @calc 74*16
19:30:10 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 1184
19:30:17 <Rubidium> but... with a factor 16 it'd be \w1184 which is a multiplication I can't do as easily in my head
19:30:26 <Rubidium> as I multiply or divide by 2
19:30:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i seriously want to get rid of km/h-ish at least for all user interfaces.
19:31:26 <Rubidium> okay...
19:31:33 <Rubidium> what about hm/h-ish? ;)
19:31:43 <Rubidium> or... 0.0625 mph
19:31:53 <Alberth> Rubidium: 1 bit may not be enough, the code may just start flipping the last bit, which you can still see
19:32:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if you se it that way, the current granularity is 0.625 mph
19:32:53 <Eddi|zuHause> (for trains)
19:33:11 <Rubidium> yes
19:33:42 <Rubidium> but what's the difference between 0.0625 mph or 0.0625 km/h user interface wise?
19:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: which is neither useful to model exact km/h values, nor exact mph values
19:34:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: well, i'd be fine with my proposal of XXXY format with mph instead of km/h
19:35:26 <Rubidium> although you'd be adding (unused) granularity
19:35:38 <planetmaker> not exactly
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19:35:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: but that granularity may still be used at a later date
19:36:01 <planetmaker> it'd be feasible to add some velocity values which then could be used later
19:36:02 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it'll definitely be unused until the whole speed code is revised
19:36:38 <planetmaker> yes... but future-proof the speed properties. It's somewhat a point
19:36:45 <planetmaker> and would make revision possibly easier
19:36:53 <planetmaker> when done in two years or so
19:37:08 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: you can easily halve the granularity by calling TrainController only once per internal speed unit
19:37:57 <Rubidium> yup
19:40:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but really, the point is to allow this kind of refactoring later, without worrying about the grf specs
19:40:24 <Rubidium> but the specs aren't the biggest problem
19:41:05 <Rubidium> see the aircraft accel and speed
19:41:12 <Eddi|zuHause> no. but one less problem is one less problem :)
19:41:30 <Rubidium> internally that's in km-ish/h, but in the spec it's in 8mph
19:42:02 <Rubidium> *and* we still need to do it for pre-grfv8 NewGRFs
19:42:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that kind of rounding will be in the newgrf abstraction layer then
19:42:24 <Rubidium> so you'd be adding two bits of spec handling that needs to be handled
19:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, one conversion for grf<8 and one for grf>=8
19:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't see a better opportunity coming up
19:44:19 <Rubidium> that's true
19:46:04 <planetmaker> "it's a good opportunity now" is somewhat convincing... hm
19:50:55 <Rubidium> ah, so you're volunteering? ;)
19:53:01 <z-MaTRiX> multiple suns are shining at mutexland, where deadlocks are your friend :)
19:54:11 <Rubidium> 7 properties, 4 variables, and one headache: subspeed
19:55:42 <Rubidium> (which is the exposing an implementation detail of the speed calculations)
19:56:03 <Rubidium> +of
19:56:20 <planetmaker> why would it be exposed?
19:57:06 <Rubidium> if you want to make use of the higher granularity in the speed, then subspeed needs to become bigger as well
19:58:12 <Rubidium> although, there is an caveat with mph/16 as number: you need to divide by 10 when passing it into the "distance moved" calculation
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20:00:48 <Rubidium> which, ofcourse, isn't a nice factor for computers to divide by
20:02:03 <planetmaker> yes...
20:02:21 <planetmaker> though currently the factors are not really nicer either. Just a factor of 10 higher
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20:04:22 <Rubidium> planetmaker: they are very nice; just add "speed" to subspeed. Divide by 256. The quotient is the number of units to move, the remainder is the new subspeed
20:06:03 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: there is no reason why the factor of 10 needs to be used in the internal speed units
20:07:27 <andythenorth> where's the fun in not multiplying speeds by 3.2 or 0.8 or whichever it is of those props that actually gets used
20:07:36 <Rubidium> so the proposal is: use 1/16 mph in the specs and immediately trash it to 10/16 mph for trains and 5/16 mph for RVs?
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20:08:50 <andythenorth> does grf v8 deprecate useless props and refuse to compile if they're used?
20:09:16 <Rubidium> it doesn't
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20:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause> we could deprecate the short dates
20:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> or stuff like the split properties
20:11:04 <frosch123> short dates are already deprecated
20:11:25 <frosch123> you may set them for old versions, but you do not have to
20:11:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it was weight which was split between low and high byte
20:12:25 <frosch123> i see no point in changing that
20:12:29 <frosch123> it only adds to the mess
20:12:35 <frosch123> and you do not see it when using nml
20:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> different thing: what about all the "must be zero for articulated parts" properties? there's hardly ever a reason to forbid this
20:13:09 <frosch123> [21:12] <frosch123> it only adds to the mess <- esp wrt. other tools
20:13:43 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: "must be zero" is only to ensure that they can get a meaning later
20:13:49 <frosch123> which is independent of grfv8
20:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i.e. there's no reason why articulated parts shouldn't have weight
20:14:04 <Eddi|zuHause> or price
20:14:18 <Rubidium> they're just ignored ;)
20:14:21 <frosch123> exactly. that's why it is "must be zero" for now. so if they get weight, grfs stay the same
20:15:08 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the specs generally do not state stuff like "unused" or "ignored"
20:15:19 <frosch123> as then the grfs do just write random junk in it
20:15:37 <andythenorth> mine do :P
20:15:45 <andythenorth> I missed that bit of the spec for HEQS
20:15:54 <andythenorth> I wrote a ticket to myself about it
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20:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> so... conclusion: it's not depending on grfv8, it just needs someone to actually implement it
20:16:33 <andythenorth> any chance of extending refit mask to > 32 cargos?
20:16:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: unlikely...
20:17:21 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: mind that it makes no sense to implement it, as long as trains sum te and power for the whole train before doing the minimum
20:17:33 <frosch123> and that is an optimisation
20:17:52 <frosch123> andythenorth: shall i link you to the callback again?
20:17:59 <andythenorth> :)
20:18:03 <frosch123> i only linked it 3 times this week :p
20:18:08 <andythenorth> sorry :|
20:18:19 <andythenorth> so many new things I need to code / test
20:18:28 <andythenorth> still busy *fixing the fricking lighting*
20:19:29 <andythenorth> still have to implement decay rate
20:19:36 <andythenorth> still have to do canal speed fraction
20:19:43 <andythenorth> still have to do the auto-refit support
20:19:46 <andythenorth> :o
20:20:03 <frosch123> your clones need to grow faster
20:20:31 <frosch123> does any un convention forbid child-labour on newgrfs?
20:20:41 <andythenorth> probably not explicitly
20:20:51 <andythenorth> I doubt there's a clause about pixel art or nfo
20:21:06 <andythenorth> frosch123: where's the callback?
20:21:14 <Alberth> not even on nfo?!?
20:24:06 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Do I need to be worried as each item on your list was me? :p
20:24:25 <andythenorth> I just like having a to-do list :)
20:24:42 <andythenorth> it's much easier to write nfo than ask people to patch the game
20:24:56 <andythenorth> continuously asking for patches is hard work :P
20:25:16 <planetmaker> you just should kick your ass a bit and have a go at NML ;-)
20:25:37 <andythenorth> michi_cc: I am reading the infrastructure patch - but can't see if it enables railtypes to specify a maintenance cost multiplier...
20:25:51 <andythenorth> give me an excuse to start a railtypes set....
20:26:22 <planetmaker> and you should revert the sugar cane cargo classes... they're definitely not piece goods...
20:26:56 <andythenorth> they're definitely not bulk either
20:26:58 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Citing from my forum post "NewGRF support for rail type specific cost factors." Would be prop 1B.
20:27:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: a bundle of sugar cane *is* piece goods according to the intention of that class
20:27:24 <andythenorth> whereas sugar cane is *never* bulk
20:27:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: look at the issue I created.
20:27:33 <planetmaker> It clearly is transported as bulk...
20:27:51 <planetmaker> neither over-sized nor bundled
20:28:03 <andythenorth> nah
20:28:07 <andythenorth> bulk is things that flow
20:28:12 <andythenorth> that's the mistake we keep making
20:28:16 <andythenorth> bulk != bulky
20:28:18 <planetmaker> yup. Sugar cane sticks of 30cm do flow
20:28:26 <planetmaker> and definitely is not "piece goods"
20:28:35 <planetmaker> Thus you break all vehicle sets without good reason
20:28:41 <Alberth> planetmaker: what do you think of these tracks?
20:28:49 <andythenorth> planetmaker: break how?
20:28:57 <andythenorth> are classes classes, or are they labels?
20:29:05 <andythenorth> I wish we could decide, it's getting tiresome
20:29:05 <planetmaker> which is not a "break savegames" but a "break newgrfs" issue. Much worse.
20:29:12 <Alberth> the long piece seems to have some weird pixels
20:29:38 <andythenorth> either classes are abstractions, or they are precise cargos, in which case they are redundant because we have labels already
20:29:51 <planetmaker> I don't talk about classes. I talk about one cargo
20:29:54 <Alberth> and the top-left two pieces are very unclear to me what tracks they have
20:30:01 <planetmaker> Which you changed the properties of to the total opposite
20:30:08 <planetmaker> Which is - sorry - bullshit
20:30:34 <andythenorth> please explain why
20:30:44 <planetmaker> this "today this, today that" is totally not funny in this respect :-(
20:31:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: see the issue I opened. Sugar cane *is not* piece goods.
20:31:09 <andythenorth> yes it is
20:31:10 <planetmaker> See the linsk
20:31:15 <planetmaker> look at the images
20:31:16 <planetmaker> It is not
20:31:26 <andythenorth> you misunderstand the intention of the current cargo classes
20:31:36 <planetmaker> of course
20:31:47 * Alberth tiptoes out of here
20:31:55 <planetmaker> so do I
20:32:53 <andythenorth> sugar cane was added as an explicit label to handle this issue, differentiating it from sugar beet, which is bulk
20:34:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: *did* you look at the links I provided?
20:34:13 <andythenorth> yes
20:34:18 <planetmaker> Did you see that? Or do you argue out of thin air?
20:34:30 <andythenorth> hmm
20:34:30 <planetmaker> Is that piece goods as in "boxed sugar cane pieces or bundles?
20:34:40 <planetmaker> Or does it look like a pile of small sticks?
20:34:40 <andythenorth> 1 mins
20:35:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: you think it *should* be bulk, *shouldn't* be piece goods, or both?
20:36:05 <andythenorth> I have no strong feelings about piece goods aspect
20:36:13 <planetmaker> ...
20:36:30 <planetmaker> it should just remain bulk as it was. Simple revert
20:36:43 <planetmaker> If you want, you can add the oversized
20:36:53 <planetmaker> But piece... doesn't seem right at all
20:36:57 <andythenorth> ok
20:37:05 <planetmaker> though I personally don't see the oversized by what I saw
20:37:17 <andythenorth> I added piece because the class I think it should have is neo-bulk, which has zero cargo set support (so far)
20:37:19 <andythenorth>
20:37:21 <planetmaker> And... why don't you change the cargo label there, too?
20:37:28 <planetmaker> Or why did you change it for scrap metal?
20:37:29 <andythenorth> the cargo label is new
20:37:32 <planetmaker> That's totally inconsequent
20:37:44 <planetmaker> The diff doesn't list a new cargo label
20:37:46 <andythenorth> the cargo label can be changed
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20:38:10 <planetmaker> I'm not in favour of adding yet another new and soon-to-be-deprecated label, though
20:38:18 <planetmaker> We did that to way too many cargo labels already
20:38:48 <andythenorth> do you want to add a new label for sugar cane?
20:39:09 <andythenorth> we can use SRCN
20:39:13 <planetmaker> mostly I'm mad about what seems a quick-shot change for existing cargos which has not properly been thought-through
20:39:20 <andythenorth> why?
20:39:23 <andythenorth> these are not new tickets
20:39:28 <andythenorth> these are long standing issues
20:39:38 <planetmaker> as cargo changes mean to change all existing newgrfs
20:39:42 <andythenorth> sugar cane was split from sugar beet for this precise reason
20:39:55 <planetmaker> and adding new labels means that specific support has to be added (again) for the new ones
20:40:00 <planetmaker> both is at least tedious
20:41:05 <b_jonas> uh, can't a cargo have multiple labels?
20:41:43 <andythenorth> planetmaker: some of the definitions are wrong. They impose extra work on set authors, that's wrong, and it needs to be fixed.
20:42:04 <michi_cc> It seems to me the current way of cargo support using labels and classes doesn't really work if it means once a cargo is introduced you can never ever change anything at all.
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20:42:18 <andythenorth> basically between those of us who've set the cargo labels (mostly me), there have been misunderstandings
20:42:28 <andythenorth> primarily because in english 'bulk' and 'bulky' sound similar
20:42:41 <andythenorth> and also because I set some labels to suit me in HEQS, instead of doing proper cargo support
20:42:44 <andythenorth> both are wrong
20:43:19 <andythenorth> FIRS is not yet even 1.0, and has always carried a warning about changes
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20:44:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: if that's the case, then you must not publish the used cargo specs.
20:44:40 <planetmaker> As they're added to the wiki, they're official
20:44:50 <andythenorth> ok
20:44:54 <andythenorth> that is a good point
20:45:55 <andythenorth> michi_cc: the current cargo support is pretty good, but it seems to be surrounded by problems
20:46:17 <andythenorth> conceptually it's really sound, but it's very easy to make mistakes that have a high penalty
20:46:19 <planetmaker> michi_cc: if you change the specs, you simply have to name it differently
20:46:34 <andythenorth> I only today understood what MB intended by 'bulk'
20:46:50 <planetmaker> you don't really want to tell me you mixed up bulk and bulky, do you?
20:46:58 <andythenorth> yes, for a long time
20:47:06 <planetmaker> o_O
20:47:11 <andythenorth> I raised this issue in forums some time ago
20:47:37 <andythenorth> about 6 months ago or such
20:47:51 <andythenorth> :)
20:48:10 <andythenorth> first post in this thread :)
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20:49:03 <planetmaker> I guess no-one understood that you didn't understand English...
20:49:20 <planetmaker> (I didn't at least)
20:49:50 <andythenorth> stupid language anyway
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20:49:58 <andythenorth> one 'y' totally changes the meaning :P
20:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> <michi_cc> It seems to me the current way of cargo support using labels and classes doesn't really work if it means once a cargo is introduced you can never ever change anything at all. <-- i think the only problem with that is the "XOR" with the explicit cargo mask. if that was split into an "OR" and an "AND NOT" mask, most of the problems with switching cargo classes would disappear
20:51:56 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it's not like I didn't discuss this about 10 million times here :P
20:52:10 <andythenorth> no-one pointed out the mistake, we just got stuck on it every time
20:52:54 <planetmaker> It might explain why these discussions were so unproductive and annoying...
20:53:03 <andythenorth> yup
20:54:05 <planetmaker> Pointing out that you don't mean 'bulk' when you say 'bulk' is a bit difficult, don't you think?
20:54:13 <andythenorth> so I tried to figure out what MB *intended* by the classes (assuming it was MB), which led me to Wikipedia...which led me to the shipping industry has had exact same problem: cargos that overlap both bulk and piece goods
20:54:19 <andythenorth> hence neo-bulk
20:54:28 <planetmaker> except telling you that your argument is about... nonsense. Which was refuted
20:55:38 <andythenorth> he
20:55:46 <andythenorth> in the uk you can make a bulk order of logs
20:56:01 <andythenorth> and a bulk delivery of cars
20:56:13 <andythenorth> but you wouldn't use a bulk carrier for either
20:56:13 <planetmaker> which refers not to the cargo property at all
20:56:28 <planetmaker> thus has no place in cargo classes
20:56:34 <andythenorth> I'm not arguing - the mistake was mine entirely :P
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20:58:28 <planetmaker> @logs
20:58:28 <DorpsGek> planetmaker:
20:59:49 <andythenorth> so one thing we should do is to not publish cargo labels?
21:00:11 <andythenorth> at least until FIRS 1.0
21:00:17 <andythenorth> should we remove them from the wiki?
21:00:22 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes i really wonder how you reach any of your conclusions...
21:01:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I mostly think we should not now change the cargo classes of the existing cargos. But wait. Gather the ideas. Weigh the ideas
21:01:32 <planetmaker> Not quick-"fix" like now. And change it again. But do that all from 0.9 to 1.0
21:01:33 <andythenorth> because the cost of changing is too high?
21:01:34 <planetmaker> or so
21:01:39 <planetmaker> yes. Much so
21:01:45 <andythenorth> hmm
21:02:06 <andythenorth> I was trying to get all this done with only one major savegame break since 0.6 release
21:02:06 <planetmaker> and thinking a bit more about it than 24h on one way to change it, is too little imho
21:02:19 <planetmaker> lol. It was broken between each version
21:02:32 <andythenorth> ?
21:02:41 <andythenorth> how?
21:02:42 <planetmaker> And there'll be reasons to break it also between each future version. I'm sure
21:02:57 <planetmaker> firs 0.3 != 0.4 != 0.5 != 0.6 != 0.7
21:03:06 <planetmaker> version = major version
21:03:10 <andythenorth> ok
21:03:43 <andythenorth> unlikely we'll do a 0.7 final release though
21:03:46 <andythenorth> that's nitpicking
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21:03:55 <planetmaker> ?
21:04:03 <andythenorth> we only released the beta to the forums
21:04:10 <planetmaker> so?
21:04:17 <andythenorth> next release will be 0.8 I think
21:04:34 <andythenorth> probably when stable ottd has caught up
21:04:35 <planetmaker> err, why that?
21:04:55 <planetmaker> why skip a 0.7?
21:05:14 <andythenorth> why release 0.7? Unless we backport a lot, which we could
21:05:54 <planetmaker> we just don't backport, but tag trunk as 0.7
21:06:14 <planetmaker> or tag a 0.7 in the branch and publish that with the betas
21:06:21 <planetmaker> backporting is not fun really
21:07:06 <Wolf01> nighty night
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21:07:45 <andythenorth> well we could release 0.7
21:08:42 <andythenorth> we had a reason for possibly skipping it, but I don't remember
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21:09:03 <planetmaker> putting up 0.7 on bananas makes FIRS unavailable for stable OpenTTD
21:09:11 <planetmaker> via bananas
21:09:36 <andythenorth> we did have a plan
21:09:39 <planetmaker> it's nor FIRS' fault, but that's how it (still) is
21:09:55 <planetmaker> yes, other grfID for trunk FIRS. But meh
21:09:57 <andythenorth> there were plausible reasons to *never* release 0.7 on bananas, but go straight to 0.8
21:10:08 <planetmaker> dunno
21:10:20 <andythenorth> maybe we just got to the 0.7 beta and stopped there
21:10:44 <andythenorth> perhaps we were waiting for translations against 0.7.x, but now they're mostly coming against tip afaik
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21:17:40 <Zuu> Or just release it and encourange more people to use the OpenTTD nightlies?
21:18:40 <Alberth> translations are mostly ad-hoc imho, perhaps you should post and explicitly ask for updates
21:20:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: I guess I should have put bold text in here :D
21:21:24 <supermop_> this bottle of ginger beer has a nasdaq trading symbol on the label
21:21:26 <Alberth> I missed that entirely :p
21:21:30 <Zuu> hmm, wxWidgets is sloooow. I need to throttle my commands to it or it consume 50% of a CPU core when it get constantly updated :-( - my SDL GUI barely touches the CPU usage. (or go back to SDL :-) )
21:21:39 <andythenorth> Alberth: it wasn't bold enough ;)
21:21:54 <Alberth> I mean the entire post :)
21:22:14 <supermop_> i guess they are hoping that halfway through I'll decide that it's so great that I'll run to a computer and buy a bunch of their stock...
21:22:38 <__ln__> Zuu: what are you doing with wx exactly?
21:23:34 <Zuu> I'm trying to port Junctioneer to it, but I start to question what I really gain by doing it.
21:24:12 <Zuu> Though, I beleive part of my questions is because I don't know it good enough yet.
21:25:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: did this get any better yet :D
21:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> sounds like you'd benefit from gathering multiple updates before you actually update everything
21:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: maybe you should release 0.7-RC1 with a notice to update translations within the next 2-4 weeks?
21:27:31 <andythenorth> perhaps
21:27:39 <andythenorth> but tip is way ahead of the 0.7 branch I think
21:27:46 <frosch123> andythenorth: i started the topic instead of starting an edit-war on the wiki
21:27:48 <andythenorth> which means translators might be translating against dead code
21:28:09 <frosch123> mb was adding non-sense back then :p
21:28:12 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: alternatively just release tip as 0.7-beta2
21:28:17 * andythenorth never wanted to add the FIRS labels to the wiki :(
21:28:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that could be a good idea
21:28:58 <andythenorth> maybe not while this cargo shenanigan is happening though :)
21:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> agreed :)
21:30:12 <andythenorth> all I feel like I've done for the last 2 days is piss everyone off, and that's even before MB eventually deigns to respond in the forums to my proposals
21:30:19 <andythenorth> yet all I'm trying to do is correct mistakes
21:30:39 <andythenorth> cargos are very expensive in heartache :P
21:30:41 <frosch123> how about adding "hazardous" to "bubbles"-cargo?
21:31:01 <frosch123> they are explosive after all
21:32:20 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think I like the cb route :P
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21:32:40 <andythenorth> although it does nothing to help the 'cargos cannot be changed, but new cargos shouldn't be added' problem
21:32:45 <Terkhen> good night
21:32:48 <frosch123> i think i add the cb after the grfv8 queue
21:33:10 <andythenorth> I think I update HEQS to use it
21:33:36 <andythenorth> it might avoid a savegame break or some *really* tedious work
21:33:45 <frosch123> i thought earlier this day, that the alternative "cargo shall define which vehicles can carry them" is nonsense, since the vehicles define the graphics to use
21:33:50 <frosch123> and should know better what to carry
21:34:11 <frosch123> andythenorth: note that the cb number will change :p
21:34:24 <andythenorth> "cargo shall define which vehicles carry them" is going down the route of 'there are fixed types of vehicles'
21:34:37 <andythenorth> which isn't how It has been done, and is not compatible with current approach
21:35:25 <andythenorth> *all* of my cargo gripes are solved by (a) fixing my own stupid mistakes (b) introducing neo-bulk class
21:36:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: how about a cb to change cargo classes during game :D
21:36:39 <andythenorth> on the cargo
21:37:09 <andythenorth> water is liquid in summer, but piece goods + oversized in winter
21:37:27 <michi_cc> Zuu: Obviously I don't know where you CPU time goes, but if you update several controls at once, using Freeze() + Thaw() might help a lot.
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21:39:34 <Zuu> michi_cc: Thanks, I indeed update several controls. It's the node junction window which lists all incomming and outgoing connections. They are ordered by the angle of the inputs/outputs. So when you move the node, the GUI is updated. Since the GUI was repainted almost for free before, I think it updated the GUI every time the node was moved without checking if it is needed or not.
21:40:29 <michi_cc>
21:40:51 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: any possiblity the refitability-callback can do something like predetermine the allowed cargos for autorefit? e.g. if i have a tanker wagon, i could have two separate sets: "autorefit (food, milk, alcohol)" and "autorefit (oil, fuel, chemicals)", which would be available in the order list?
21:41:14 <michi_cc> Freeze applies to all Controls and not only Windows here of course.
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21:41:42 <Zuu> Inded as in wx a control is a window :-)
21:42:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: sounds very difficult
21:42:40 <frosch123> and makes only sense to known cargos
21:42:53 <frosch123> i.e. not cargoclass based
21:43:33 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: well, it could make sense e.g. with the proposed "clean" cargo class.
21:44:48 <andythenorth> should I revert my wiki update to classes btw?
21:45:07 * andythenorth is always a bit worried about editing wiki
21:45:29 <andythenorth>
21:45:33 * planetmaker is more worried about changing specs too quickly w/o time to consider stuff
21:46:02 <planetmaker> changing as in breaking existing definitions
21:46:31 <frosch123> i just wanted to start a topic to discuss whether default cargos shall gain any of the new classes
21:47:50 <andythenorth> I tried to clarify the definitions of the other classes as well
21:48:19 <planetmaker> that might be a good idea, frosch123
21:52:27 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bulk, piece goods, AND neo-bulk for sugar cane? :o Perhaps not ;)
21:52:46 <frosch123> omg, classifying toyland cargos...
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21:53:14 <andythenorth> I suspect there are UIC codes somewhere for toyland :P
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21:53:29 <andythenorth> frosch123: it's easy: most are 'hazardous'
21:53:35 <andythenorth> batteries: hazardous
21:53:55 <andythenorth> to classify toys accurately, you need my proposed 'class changing' cb
21:54:01 <andythenorth> and you have to check age of player
21:54:10 <andythenorth> hazardouse for < 3 years
21:54:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth: perhaps yes
21:54:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: some chance we'll end up with no vehicle support if we put all three on :)
21:54:53 <andythenorth> due to exclusions
21:55:05 <planetmaker> true
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21:55:23 <andythenorth> this is why the cb route might be better...
21:55:34 <andythenorth> although same could apply
21:56:31 <andythenorth> although any truck or train set should include open wagons
21:56:52 <andythenorth> and any vehicle author who doesn't allow piece goods and/or bulk into open wagons is doing something wrong
21:57:10 <andythenorth> and excluding neo-bulk from open wagons would be stupid too
21:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> someone could do "bulk, but not piece goods" for the open wagons, and "piece goods, but not bulk" for the closed wagon
21:57:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then your proposed cargo couldn't go in either of them
21:57:40 <planetmaker> yes
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21:58:07 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: then they should add neo-bulk :)
21:59:41 <andythenorth> why does the first cargo information table in the wiki include FIRS and ECS type B IDs?
21:59:55 <andythenorth> that encourages use of hard-coded IDs, not labels
22:00:10 <andythenorth> the ID chosen for each cargo in FIRS should be private information to FIRS
22:00:22 <andythenorth> are there features that need it?
22:01:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i once needed such information for the dbxl-cargo-addon, because the CTT of the addon-set was not respected back then
22:01:24 <frosch123> yes, dbset 0.8 extension sets
22:01:52 <andythenorth> but the wiki is not canonical for FIRS
22:02:00 <andythenorth> only the repo is canonical
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22:02:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it should be canonical
22:02:52 <planetmaker> thus it should only include those info which can be guaranteed to remain fairly constant
22:03:34 <andythenorth> it's not currently accurate :P
22:03:50 <Eddi|zuHause> changing cargo-slots is something not-savegame-safe-y
22:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> but at the latest when "economies" are introduced, the information is probably useless
22:04:30 <andythenorth> contains ~3 errors at the moment
22:09:08 <Qantourisc> Dam .... i wanted to upgrade to monorail ...
22:09:31 <Qantourisc> but by the time all the trains have checked in ... i can upgrade to maglev :p
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22:14:57 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23127 /trunk/src/vehicle_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4819] (r23086): Don't crash when refitting default vehicles.
22:17:22 <frosch123> <- are the bigger flaws in there?
22:18:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would like the intention of oversized/overweight clarified by whoever created it
22:18:26 <andythenorth> it could be useful, but only if we know what it's meant to be
22:18:32 <frosch123> isn't that best done by giving examples?
22:18:42 <andythenorth> oversized / overweight are two different dimensions
22:18:50 <andythenorth> and 'requires specialist vehicles' is of no help
22:19:07 <andythenorth> my vehicle is a specialist car for carrying hot molten metal
22:19:12 <andythenorth> can it carry sheets of glass?
22:19:14 <frosch123> "specialist vehicles" are those which have no cargo classes, but only specific cargos :p
22:19:19 <andythenorth> ha
22:19:22 <andythenorth> nice definition
22:20:26 <andythenorth> fwiw, the cargo industry now treats livestock as neo-bulk
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22:21:05 <andythenorth> gold should be express :P
22:21:30 <frosch123> andythenorth: in the forum post i might suggest the defintion. "oversized/overweight" = "requires wagons which can be loaded with a crane, i.e. open or open-able roof
22:21:45 <andythenorth> :)
22:22:29 <frosch123> andythenorth: the problem with livestock is that there are very different types of livestock
22:22:49 <andythenorth> frosch123:
22:23:14 <andythenorth> coconuts :P
22:23:21 <andythenorth> that is the same three wheeled truck I have
22:24:46 <frosch123> "passengers" are not "clean" btw. :p
22:25:01 <andythenorth> nor are trains, so that's ok
22:25:05 <andythenorth> especially not buses
22:25:16 <andythenorth> mail might be?
22:25:39 <andythenorth> but in game, mail is kind of covered anyway
22:26:06 <planetmaker> I'd be surprised if covered wasn't used...
22:26:11 <andythenorth> oops
22:26:16 <andythenorth> word collision :)
22:26:24 <andythenorth> in game, mail has few problems
22:26:28 <andythenorth> I should have said
22:26:57 * andythenorth tries to figure out a case for oversized / overweight
22:27:19 <andythenorth> so the heavy item flat car in US set might refit to that class
22:27:22 <planetmaker> wind turbine parts :-)
22:27:58 <andythenorth> I worry what happens if it's excluded
22:27:59 <frosch123> let's check some pikka set
22:28:13 <andythenorth> box cars should exclude oversized / overweight
22:28:17 <andythenorth> for example
22:28:39 <andythenorth> the exclude thing is basically a small bomb waiting to go off sometimes
22:28:45 <andythenorth> setting fewer classes == better
22:30:15 <andythenorth> hmm
22:32:26 <frosch123> planetmaker: nars2 does not use them for a start :)
22:33:15 <planetmaker> hm, interesting
22:33:44 <andythenorth> frosch123: I would avoid setting the oversized class
22:33:51 <planetmaker> why?
22:34:26 <andythenorth> because the majority of vehicle types should exclude it
22:34:46 <planetmaker> flatbed typcially wouldn't. Would they?
22:35:01 <andythenorth> depends on what it means
22:35:11 <frosch123> egrvts seems to be too old, it uses only up to "hazardous"
22:35:17 <andythenorth> let me recycle my previous comment :P
22:35:30 <frosch123> (for exclusion mainly)
22:35:33 <andythenorth> depending on how some authors choose to interpret it, lots of vehicles *might* exclude it
22:35:45 <andythenorth> (oversized)
22:35:57 <frosch123> oh, though egrvts has a bug, it uses "clean" :p
22:36:01 <andythenorth> heh
22:36:08 <planetmaker> as what exactly?
22:36:48 <planetmaker> there's a posting which states that silently ECS uses bit10 already. "great"
22:37:09 <frosch123> the armoured carriage can transport "clean"
22:37:10 <planetmaker> as definition of powder
22:37:14 <planetmaker> oh he
22:37:21 <planetmaker> that's different then :-)
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22:37:41 <andythenorth> is it possible that oversized will end up merging with neo-bulk?
22:37:42 <frosch123> i guess it shall have been "hazardious"
22:38:08 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes :p
22:38:23 <andythenorth> do we know who added 'oversized' ?
22:38:28 <frosch123> mb
22:38:32 <planetmaker> take a guess
22:38:39 <andythenorth> I think I can think like MB
22:38:58 <frosch123> covered and oversized are by mb
22:38:59 <andythenorth> I think he means specifically what US ralroads call 'high and wide'
22:39:11 <frosch123> hazardous must be from some forum troll years ago
22:39:15 <andythenorth> or 'dimensional loads'
22:39:33 <andythenorth> basically things that might go out of the loading gauge, or over the route weight limit
22:39:43 <andythenorth> notably it will be train specific :P
22:39:48 <Eddi|zuHause> if i say "i have previously staded my thoughts on oversized on the forum", do i "think like MB"? :p
22:40:02 <andythenorth> maybe you are MB
22:40:55 <andythenorth> specifically, putting overweight cargo into *normal* wagons would create an axle loading that was too high, and advanced players should know this and choose the appropriate wagon type
22:41:08 <andythenorth> I can't really mimic him, I am a poor mimic
22:41:19 <andythenorth> o/c
22:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, if "oversized" means "wind turbine parts, transformers, or CASTOR containers", then the class is useless, as no newgrf ever defines such things
22:41:31 <andythenorth> yes
22:41:33 <andythenorth> yet
22:41:46 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that's how I understood that class, though
22:41:53 <andythenorth> moi aussi
22:42:10 <andythenorth> I considered setting it for ENSP, but couldn't quite see the benefit
22:42:22 <andythenorth> it's too likely to lead to unhelpful exclusions
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22:42:40 <andythenorth> it's highly specific
22:42:51 <planetmaker> and pointless class-cruft ;-)
22:43:05 <andythenorth> adding such a specific cargo is unlikely to help gameplay
22:43:14 <andythenorth> and if it was added, it would have poor vehicle support
22:43:22 <andythenorth> double bad
22:43:43 <frosch123> planetmaker: do you know some other modern vehicle set which might use those cargo classes?
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22:44:08 <frosch123> (newer than egrvts)
22:44:22 <andythenorth> do they do any harm?
22:44:32 <planetmaker> I don't really know. You're still talking of covered, do you?
22:44:38 <frosch123> yes
22:44:48 <planetmaker> does ecs use it?
22:44:56 <andythenorth> I believe covered is set in FIRS
22:45:02 <andythenorth> by request of MB somewhere
22:45:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: does heqs or fish use "covered/sheltered" or "oversized"?
22:45:04 <planetmaker> (yes, it's no vehicle set)
22:45:09 <andythenorth> let me check
22:45:11 <frosch123> planetmaker: industry sets do not matter
22:45:13 <frosch123> only vehicle sets
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22:45:43 <andythenorth> heqs does not use either. I was going to add it for some heavy transport trucks in HEQS, but there are no useful cargos for them
22:45:58 <andythenorth> I might as well just hard code ENSP
22:46:08 <andythenorth> (oversized)
22:46:19 <planetmaker> frosch123: I use them in ogfx+
22:46:38 <planetmaker> hm... no, not sheltered
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22:46:49 <planetmaker> but oversized and hazardous. As 'not applicable' :-P
22:47:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think HEQS excludes covered, hazardous and oversized on most vehicles - by accident
22:47:20 <frosch123> fish uses them
22:47:22 <andythenorth> I'd have to double check the mask
22:47:40 <andythenorth> fish includes or excludes?
22:48:13 <frosch123> fish and heqs use 0x03FF to include all cargos
22:48:40 <frosch123> some heqs vehicles exclude 0x03EF
22:48:43 <andythenorth> yes
22:48:45 <planetmaker> 2ccTS exludes wxFFFB by default
22:48:46 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS uses sheltered
22:48:50 <frosch123> (everything but bulk)
22:49:04 <andythenorth> frosch123: it's accident not design that FISH / HEQS include oversized etc
22:49:13 <andythenorth> arguably they also support clean and neo-bulk already :P
22:49:30 <Eddi|zuHause> not entirely sure whether that's in the right way, though
22:49:55 <planetmaker> well. CETS can still change, I think
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22:50:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: where do you use it?
22:51:03 <andythenorth> much as I am convinced by classes in general, the exclusions are a headache
22:51:09 <andythenorth> if we set covered on grain...
22:51:16 <andythenorth> none of these
22:51:16 <andythenorth>
22:51:23 <andythenorth> can be used for grain
22:51:27 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the open wagon says "include bulk, but exclude sheltered" and then there's a special covered wagon for "sheltered"
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22:52:27 <andythenorth> there are differences between 'cargo needs' and 'cargo can' and 'wagon provides' and 'wagon can't'
22:52:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the covered wagon is mostly for sensitive cargos like some (powderized) chemicals
22:52:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it's thus called "Kaliwagen"
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22:53:12 <planetmaker> K&S ;-)
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22:55:28 <andythenorth> he
22:55:40 <andythenorth> tarpaulins are covers
22:56:01 <Eddi|zuHause>
22:56:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and the first google hit on "Kaliwagon" is...
22:56:28 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: and in 1830 with UKRS 2?
22:56:53 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: this is a wagon ca. 1909
22:56:58 <andythenorth> I know :)
22:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: opposed to the open wagon:
22:57:21 <andythenorth> but if pikka does the correct thing and excludes covered from open wagons, then there is zero cargo support for grain
22:57:30 <andythenorth> in 1830
22:57:41 <andythenorth> it can't go in vans because they exclude bulk
22:57:52 <andythenorth> so we create a system where it's impossible to do the right thing
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22:58:30 * planetmaker needs sleep now, though. Good night
22:58:33 <andythenorth> unless you tell me I'm wrong about what the correct thing to do is
22:59:08 <andythenorth> if an author doesn't provide alternatives, then they probably shouldn't exclude covered from open wagons
22:59:49 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you could exclude it only from the later open wagons, not from the first versions
22:59:59 <andythenorth> yes
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23:00:12 <andythenorth> or we could argue to make the covered / sheltered meaning more precise
23:00:18 <andythenorth> currently I read it as 'must have a roof'
23:00:24 <andythenorth> which is probably untrue
23:01:09 <michi_cc> Grain, maize and similar are of the type 'a roof would be nice', but unlike some chemicals they won't dissolve if they get so it's not a 'must absolutely have a roof' cargo.
23:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> do we need a specialized wagon for "Elefanten, Kamele und Giraffen"?
23:01:22 <michi_cc> s/get/get wet/
23:01:26 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: absolutely
23:01:39 <andythenorth> there are B&B circus train sprites in US Set apparently as an easter egg
23:01:45 <andythenorth> they require a very specific refit :P
23:02:14 <andythenorth> there's no AND combination for classes?
23:02:21 <andythenorth> we have to rely on exclusions?
23:02:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no, there's only "OR" and "AND NOT"
23:02:51 <andythenorth> the kaliwagen should be for cargos that are bulk AND covered
23:03:01 <andythenorth> the exclusion is unhelpful
23:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> yes
23:03:07 <andythenorth> a cb could handle that better
23:03:12 <andythenorth> much better
23:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> now where is that CB when you need it? :p
23:03:46 <andythenorth> also - the open wagon 'covered' problem is a straw man, just fit a tarpaulin
23:04:07 <andythenorth>
23:04:31 <andythenorth> (without the tarpaulin, your straw man gets wet) :P
23:05:47 *** Cybertinus has quit IRC
23:05:56 <andythenorth> I had to make WOOL covered/sheltered - due to this
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23:06:03 <andythenorth> not sure why it's helpful though
23:07:16 <frosch123> George: in case you didn't notice, there are at least 3 newer topics in the technical newgrf forum, which might interest you
23:08:51 <andythenorth> oh
23:09:01 <andythenorth> MB replied in the classes thread
23:09:08 <andythenorth> and I need to sleep, not argue with him :(
23:09:17 * andythenorth has a modest proposal
23:09:26 <andythenorth> as MB has a perfect system, he has to code all of our sets
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23:19:23 * andythenorth -> bed
23:21:32 <Zuu> In a sleeper rail car? :-)
23:22:45 <andythenorth> what class is that?
23:22:59 * andythenorth leaves you with this:
23:23:01 <andythenorth> good night
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23:24:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: is that a railcar for sleepers?
23:24:37 <Zuu> a rail car with beds for sleeping people.
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23:52:57 <Pixelator> !help
23:52:57 *** Pixelator was kicked by DorpsGek (Wrong channel. Retry in #openttdcoop.)