IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-05
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00:29:42 <Rob110178> Hi all
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00:38:18 <Zuu> Hello Rob110178
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01:52:34 <Rob110178> For some reason signaling is still confusing the daylights out of me... Grrr
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07:15:07 <Terkhen> good morning
07:15:51 <Terkhen> Rob110178: signalling is confusing... I learned by checking examples at the openttd and openttdcoop wikis
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07:43:31 <Qantourisc> What font-types does openttd eat ?
07:43:40 <Qantourisc> xfonts type or ?
07:48:35 <Qantourisc> ok freefonts too nice
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07:58:26 <andythenorth> wtf
07:58:28 <andythenorth> auto-refit
07:58:29 <andythenorth> :o
07:58:36 * andythenorth smells a FISH update soon
08:03:21 <planetmaker> and heqs!
08:03:36 <planetmaker> moin also :-)
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08:04:35 <planetmaker> but auto-update is VERY awesome
08:04:43 <planetmaker> *auto-refit
08:06:10 <planetmaker> hm... conditional orders now need additions ideally: if cargo==GOOD goto <blah>
08:06:27 <planetmaker> if cargo==FMSP goto <blub>
08:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> don't think that's a workable idea (gameplay wise)
08:07:23 <Eddi|zuHause> what if half the wagons are GOOD and the other half FMSP?
08:08:37 <planetmaker> it'd need options like "at least one wagon" and "all wagons", similar to full load all and full load any
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08:09:18 <planetmaker> and I think it's a workable idea. Like when I pickup cargos A and B, then I want to bring them to their respective destinations A' and B'
08:09:41 <planetmaker> so I want to check whether I have to go to A' and B' or only one of them
08:10:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i rather see autorefit in the context of cargo destinations
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08:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> then the cargo decides whether the train goes in the right direction, not the train
08:11:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see it useful without
08:12:08 <planetmaker> with destinations it's even more useful. But I see much use also without
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08:12:42 <planetmaker> like when you bring cargo from a transfer station to a ore smelter or so
08:13:13 <Eddi|zuHause> question: can autorefit change individual vehicles of an articulated consist (e.g. 2-part tram can be half passengers, half tourist, or heqs tram with individual cargo for each wagon)?
08:14:45 <planetmaker> it can change individual wagons. Not sure about articulated parts
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08:18:58 <andythenorth> so auto-refit chooses the most waiting cargo?
08:20:14 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather have it some-of-everything
08:20:23 <andythenorth> there's no look ahead in the station list to see if the loaded cargo is accepted?
08:20:45 <andythenorth> so I can load coal at A, and ship it meaninglessly between A and B :)
08:20:50 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that only works with cargo destinations
08:21:11 <andythenorth> acceptance doesn't demand cargo destinations
08:21:17 <andythenorth> look in the station acceptance
08:21:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but you'd break feeder systems then
08:21:38 <andythenorth> yes
08:21:39 <andythenorth> true
08:21:46 <andythenorth> could be a different style of gameplay...
08:22:04 <andythenorth> I can see the obvious applications of this with destinations
08:22:17 <andythenorth> trying to figure how it works with non-destination games
08:22:25 <andythenorth> I should just patch FISH for it :P
08:22:29 <andythenorth> no time right now
08:22:55 <andythenorth> either way, it's nice :)
08:23:08 <andythenorth> more evidence for OpenTTD Is Clearly Not Dying :D
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08:23:33 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can also station-refit to an explicitly chosen cargo
08:23:46 <planetmaker> instead of available cargo
08:24:05 <andythenorth> that has been much-discussed before :)
08:24:13 <andythenorth> it is good
08:24:24 <planetmaker> and if there's less cargo combined from types A and B, both will be carried, if individual parts can be refit
08:24:36 <planetmaker> as said, not sure about articulated. But for trains it works
08:24:41 <planetmaker> if non-articulated
08:24:44 * andythenorth wonders who's working on partial-refit for ships :P
08:25:15 <planetmaker> hehe
08:25:24 <andythenorth> planetmaker: from reading the diff, I think it's unlikely to work with articulated road vehicles
08:25:30 <andythenorth> (for partial refit)
08:25:47 <andythenorth> but refit-at-station is still good
08:25:51 <andythenorth> especially for ships
08:26:01 <planetmaker> for every vehicle
08:26:27 <planetmaker> why should I go to a depot when I want to load tractors instead of bulldozers?
08:26:41 <planetmaker> Or fuel oil barrels instead of oil barrels?
08:27:03 <andythenorth> indeed
08:29:28 <andythenorth> fmsp -> farm -> refit to wool etc
08:29:33 <planetmaker> yup
08:29:46 <planetmaker> very sensible suddenly
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08:43:12 <planetmaker> and it makes not-updated NewGRFs IMHO much less attractive to play with...
08:43:27 <planetmaker> a side-effect which is if mixed quality
08:43:56 <Alberth> hi planetmaker
08:44:04 <planetmaker> though... probably much more positive than bad.
08:44:07 <planetmaker> good morning Alberth
08:44:15 <andythenorth> hmm
08:44:23 <Alberth> hi andy :)
08:44:46 <andythenorth> a set of shiny new features could be cause for a lot of newgrf updates
08:45:00 <andythenorth> what backwards compatibility might we want to get rid of for v8? :)
08:45:08 <andythenorth> what's causing trouble?
08:46:04 <planetmaker> andythenorth: ... <-- 10 days old or so
08:46:14 <planetmaker> changes in trunk wrt stable
08:46:18 <planetmaker> 80% NewGRF ;-)
08:46:56 <andythenorth> we debated something a few months ago at length
08:47:09 <andythenorth> something that would be desirable, but break older grfs
08:47:12 <andythenorth> I forget what
08:47:15 <planetmaker> the grfv8 thread might be the place to not it :-)
08:47:25 <planetmaker> hight levels?
08:47:29 <andythenorth> no
08:47:29 <planetmaker> *height
08:47:32 <andythenorth> not that
08:47:48 <peter1138> road types
08:47:53 <peter1138> vehicles in vehicles
08:47:58 <andythenorth> that breaks older grfs? :o
08:47:58 <peter1138> multistop docks
08:47:58 <andythenorth> :P
08:48:09 <andythenorth> peter1138: you are a bot imitating me
08:48:26 <andythenorth> might have been something to do with changing grfs in game
08:48:31 <andythenorth> which is still a bad idea
08:48:42 <andythenorth> but not being able to change parameters in game is also a bad idea
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08:48:56 <andythenorth> maybe I suggested removing the ability for grfs to disable
08:49:00 <andythenorth> that is a bad idea too
08:49:11 <peter1138> you can change parameters in game, with the appropriate setting, can't you?
08:49:15 <andythenorth> I can yes
08:49:20 <andythenorth> 'normals' can't
08:49:21 <peter1138> well then
08:49:33 <andythenorth> maybe I proposed changing cargo class definitions
08:49:41 <andythenorth> that would be an interesting bunfight with MB
08:50:17 <andythenorth> hmm
08:50:30 <andythenorth> whatever it was, I think planetmaker even sent me a pm about it
08:50:43 <andythenorth> or maybe I just suggested banning newgrfs that weren't GPL
08:51:11 <planetmaker> :-D
08:51:19 <planetmaker> cargo classes...
08:51:24 * andythenorth has memory of a rabbiy
08:52:43 <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes
08:52:52 <peter1138> you can use the rest how you see fit
08:53:04 <peter1138> of course, not if you want compatibility ;)
08:53:31 <peter1138> but the upper 8 is not part of the spec, so no spec change is needed
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09:05:10 <Elukka> awww yeah
09:05:11 <Elukka>
09:05:18 <Elukka> kerbal space program has a moon now!
09:10:08 <Qantourisc> Why is openttd so easy on the money ?
09:10:31 <Qantourisc> once you get rolling
09:10:34 <Qantourisc> it gets out of control
09:12:19 <planetmaker> did you try how easy it is on a 128^2 map?
09:14:58 <Elukka> because it doesn't really model business
09:15:44 <Elukka> if you just make things more expensive all it will do is slightly postpone that part of the game where you have practically infinite money
09:15:57 <Elukka> there was a project for a new business model but i don't think anything came out of it
09:16:00 <Elukka> i think it'd be interesting
09:19:18 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: you can also employ a base cost newgrf which allows to adjust costs and running costs in a manner to increase the challange
09:21:01 <Alberth> Elukka: it is far from trivial; you need to make money otherwise you cannot play. Once you can make money, it is inevitable you make more money when you grow.
09:21:33 <Alberth> Elukka: in other words, you need a new element that hits you harder as you grow
09:21:37 <Elukka> yeah
09:21:40 <Elukka> it's all but trivial
09:21:55 <Elukka> real business, as well as games with a more elaborate business model, retain challenge even after you have a big company :P
09:22:03 <Elukka> i don't even know how you'd do it though
09:24:11 <peter1138> in theory, competition would affect your profits
09:24:13 <peter1138> but it doesn't :P
09:24:51 <Elukka> yeah but it's far from the only factor
09:25:31 <Alberth> peter1138: in MP, it might
09:25:57 <peter1138> it doesn't
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09:32:49 <planetmaker> it does. A little
09:33:08 <planetmaker> depends on how "friendly" the competition is.
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09:46:36 <andythenorth> hmm
09:46:39 * andythenorth ponders evil
09:46:47 <andythenorth> flag to prevent a ship entering locks
09:47:24 <andythenorth> e.g. for large ships
09:47:32 <andythenorth> this would force the building of sea level routes, or smaller ships
09:47:49 <planetmaker> rather prevent running on rivers then
09:48:05 <andythenorth> that's plausible too
09:48:13 <andythenorth> although I can do that with speed fraction
09:48:16 <andythenorth> (might suck)
09:49:14 <Qantourisc> hmmm
09:49:36 <Qantourisc> I think the best thread to your money is breaking trains :)
09:50:16 <Qantourisc> and a bigger penality for not having your network running smooth
09:53:12 <Qantourisc> I think the best course is making sure you only get a slim profit.
09:53:20 <Qantourisc> But yes competition too would be nice.
09:53:30 <Qantourisc> problem with them is ... they build a lot in the way :)
09:53:47 <Qantourisc> And there is no track-renting to solve that :)
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09:55:41 * andythenorth is currently excited about working on FISH and HEQS :)
09:55:50 <planetmaker> :-)
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10:04:51 <Wolf01> hello
10:05:03 <andythenorth> lo
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10:06:38 * andythenorth however does not have enough hours per day for working on FISH and HEQS :o
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10:09:09 <andythenorth> hmm
10:09:12 * andythenorth missed r22293
10:09:35 <andythenorth> now I have to work on CHIPS too :o
10:09:51 <Terkhen> bbl
10:10:04 <andythenorth> hmm
10:10:07 <Wolf01> I read "chimps" gah...
10:10:15 <andythenorth> maybe I forgot it rather than missed it
10:10:18 <andythenorth> CHIPS supports it
10:11:21 <Alberth> one done, two to go :)
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10:15:59 <__ln__> it's the 5th of november
10:16:04 <andythenorth> fireworks grf?
10:16:11 <andythenorth> newobject, animated palette
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10:17:30 <__ln__> gunpowder cargo
10:18:35 <planetmaker> I still like alberth's suggestion: 1 cargo unit produced every 5 years. Transportable only in a very expensive container with vmax = 5km/h. Delivery revenue... like rotten cheese
10:20:52 <Alberth> __ln__: sparkles mine in toyland
10:22:49 <planetmaker> :-)
10:22:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: sounds like nuclear fuel :P
10:23:06 <planetmaker> :-P
10:23:29 <planetmaker> obviously it was also clear without re-citing the cargo name :-)
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10:23:38 <planetmaker> cookie for andy :-P
10:24:38 <andythenorth> an oft-suggested cargo
10:24:41 <andythenorth> never implemented
10:24:47 * andythenorth wonders what's wrong with cargo classes
10:24:57 <andythenorth> bulk
10:24:59 <Alberth> hence my realistic suggestion :)
10:25:37 <andythenorth>
10:25:47 * andythenorth wonders if FIRS sets bit 10 for any cargos
10:25:56 <andythenorth> or bit 8
10:27:48 <planetmaker> probably not
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10:28:31 <andythenorth> hmm
10:29:07 <Alberth> do we even have such cargo?
10:29:40 <planetmaker> nope
10:29:42 <andythenorth> maybe we should
10:29:50 <andythenorth> chemicals are hazardous?
10:29:51 <planetmaker> only as add-on, IMHO
10:29:52 <andythenorth> as is petrol
10:30:17 <planetmaker> though... chemicals as hazardous.... Might make sense
10:30:26 <planetmaker> petrol... maybe... not sure
10:30:28 <andythenorth> are they OR or AND when refitting?
10:30:34 <planetmaker> depends
10:30:43 <andythenorth> on the refit masks...?
10:30:53 <planetmaker> classes AND NOT other classes XOR cargos
10:31:11 <planetmaker> yup
10:31:12 <andythenorth> adding hazardous allows set authors to do things like restrict speed when carrying chemicals
10:31:22 <andythenorth> or force the use of barrier wagons in trains
10:31:24 <planetmaker> true
10:31:32 <planetmaker> barrier wagon? Never heart that
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10:32:43 <andythenorth>
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10:35:28 <andythenorth> also,the spec implies that FMSP and ENSP probably must have bit 10 set
10:35:39 <andythenorth> "industrial equipment, machinery"
10:42:08 <Qantourisc> My trains are ignoring the service stations ...
10:42:22 <Qantourisc> why ?
10:43:01 <Yexo> you disabled breakdowns and servicing when breakdowns are off, or they are too far from the track
10:44:01 <Qantourisc> Yexo: they are a sidetrack
10:44:13 <Yexo> so to far from the normal tracks
10:44:16 <planetmaker> depot look-ahead is 20(?) tiles or so
10:44:22 <Qantourisc> oooow
10:44:26 <Qantourisc> i'm over 20 :)
10:44:28 <Alberth> without signals :)
10:45:01 <Qantourisc> so how do i up that ?
10:45:08 <Alberth> are your trains that long ?
10:45:19 <Qantourisc> currently i made room, so the 1 train can sit before the depot
10:45:22 <Qantourisc> and not block the rest
10:45:31 <Qantourisc> case 1 is leaving
10:46:30 <Alberth> you really have trains of 20 tiles length? insane :p
10:47:19 <Yexo> Qantourisc: if you give your trains "service at" orders they only go to that depot and only when they need service
10:47:28 <Yexo> the lookahead distance doesn't apply in that case
10:47:34 <Qantourisc> hmm
10:47:50 <Qantourisc> Alberth: no they are 7 long
10:48:07 <Alberth> right, so what are the other 13 tiles for?
10:48:10 <Qantourisc> distance between side track is 11
10:48:20 <Qantourisc> So it's a V split.
10:48:28 <Qantourisc> and 11 units later you have your depot
10:49:49 <Qantourisc> maybe it's the signals blocking the detection ?
10:50:08 <Alberth> sounds very largish to me, but then again, I just put the depot directly at the main line :)
10:50:35 <Alberth> signals also count as obstacles, which are translated to 'tiles' eventually
10:50:47 <Qantourisc> hmmm i'll try the lights
10:51:36 <Alberth> there are very likely discussions about this problem at the forum
10:51:57 <Alberth> I don't know whether it is in the FAQ, perhaps it should be added (hint, hint :) )
10:53:02 <Qantourisc> without the signals it works
10:53:41 <Qantourisc> i'd do it ... but i have NO idea how it really works :/
10:54:54 <Alberth> the path-finder tries to find a path to a depot every now and then (when a train needs it) upto some max distance. Tiles count as distance, as do other obstacles, such as signals
10:55:29 <Alberth> if the path finder cannot find a depot within range, it is assumed none is around, and some time later it is tried again
10:58:45 <Qantourisc> Ok that i can add :)
11:01:27 <Qantourisc> now waiting on password reset mail :)
11:13:44 <andythenorth> what is the correct cargo class for logs?
11:13:48 <andythenorth> or sugar cane?
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11:18:07 * andythenorth wonders why cargo classes are such a mess
11:18:53 <andythenorth> the ontology of cargo classes is a car crash
11:19:28 <andythenorth> they conflate properties of cargos and properties of vehicles
11:19:33 <andythenorth> which is why they're so inadequate
11:19:49 <andythenorth> can we fix them for grf v8?
11:20:33 <andythenorth> 'express' is a property of the cargo, but 'covered' is a property of the vehicle
11:21:00 <andythenorth> 'refrigerated' is a property of the vehicle, but 'suitable for pouring' is a property of the cargo
11:21:29 <andythenorth> 'armored' is a property of the vehicle, but 'hazardous' is a property of the cargo
11:22:21 <andythenorth> the proposal to layer in new refit callbacks could solve this, but classes are still a horrible mess
11:22:41 <andythenorth> are we stuck with this because nobody wants to argue with MB?
11:23:06 <andythenorth> I know he's going to brandish UIC codes and send me to some catalogue of DB wagon types if we raise this, but it's just a mess
11:23:52 <Qantourisc> Alberth: amen
11:23:54 <Qantourisc> euuu
11:23:56 <Qantourisc> andythenorth: amen
11:25:26 <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property.
11:26:03 <Qantourisc> There is still shape ...
11:26:16 <Alberth> ie the terminology may be somewhat wrong only
11:26:39 <Qantourisc> BTW refitting a good idea ?
11:27:22 <peter1138> cargo classes describe how the cargo is transported
11:27:35 <peter1138> well, not describe, but relate to
11:27:56 <andythenorth> they only 50% work
11:28:26 <peter1138> you're misinterpreting them i think
11:29:05 <andythenorth> hmm
11:29:08 <andythenorth> I'm trying my best
11:29:12 <andythenorth> I've been doing this a while :P
11:29:21 <andythenorth> I've made a few vehicles
11:29:49 <andythenorth> I'd be happy to be set straight :)
11:30:38 <Yexo> <Alberth> andythenorth: but you can read 'refrigerated' as a 'must-be-kept-cold' cargo property. <- not all current sets interpret it that way
11:31:21 <andythenorth> what class is scrap metal?
11:31:44 <Alberth> the specs are ambiguous thus
11:31:58 <andythenorth> possibly the problem is that classes are fine for the common cases
11:32:10 <andythenorth> i.e. a range of DB railway vehicles which they were invented for
11:32:17 <andythenorth> they only fail on edge cases, so maybe only 10%
11:32:19 <Alberth> perhaps you have a new kind of cargo
11:32:31 <andythenorth> I am the one with all the edge cases :P
11:32:44 <andythenorth> I have a vehicle set which is pretty much all edge cases
11:32:54 <andythenorth> and we've pushed cargo ideas a bit with FIRS
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11:33:14 <Alberth> that's how you make progress :)
11:33:33 <Alberth> but life sucks at the front line :(
11:33:37 <andythenorth> I could just declare FIRS 'winner' and only claim vehicle support in my sets for FIRS and default
11:33:45 <andythenorth> but that wasn't the point of classes
11:34:01 <andythenorth> they're supposed to provide a dream of interoparability and forward compatibility
11:34:03 <andythenorth> they don't
11:34:31 <Alberth> unfortunately, reality kicked in :p
11:34:44 <Yexo> it's easy enough to properly support firs + default and all other cargos only via the cargoclasses
11:34:44 <peter1138> they're specified for the default cargos
11:34:54 <andythenorth> so what will actually happen is that I will get maintenance requests for my vehicle sets
11:34:59 <Yexo> that means all other cargos might be transported in wrong wagons, but at least your set is able to transport them
11:35:01 <peter1138> anything that doesn't fit into the default classes should get a new class that you decide
11:35:05 <peter1138> that's the point o_O
11:35:09 <andythenorth> if we add rice to FIRS for example, I have to update HEQS
11:35:27 <andythenorth> that might be wholly unavoidable tbh
11:35:47 <Yexo> why would you HEQS have to be updated precisely? is rice not transportable or doesn't it have special graphics?
11:35:56 <andythenorth> rice doesn't travel by mining truck
11:36:03 <Yexo> but you can transport it
11:36:03 <andythenorth> I am probably stuck maintaining that tbh
11:36:10 <andythenorth> mining trucks are an edge case
11:36:16 <Yexo> transporting it in the proper wagons cannot be done by cargoclasses as they're defined now
11:36:24 <Alberth> did you ever try it the other way around, design cargo classes without bothering what exists, and see what you change?
11:36:35 <andythenorth> yes
11:36:44 <andythenorth> I basically add some splits to bulk
11:37:03 <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo can be transported by hopper
11:37:19 <andythenorth> make it explicit when a cargo needs stakes or similar (logs, sugar cane)
11:37:31 <andythenorth> the rest works and wouldn't change much
11:37:38 <andythenorth> but cargo classes are not mutable
11:37:51 <andythenorth> we're stuck with them no?
11:37:55 <Yexo> there are a few bits free, so a few classes can be added
11:38:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: ^ you had useful thoughts on this previously
11:38:45 <andythenorth> we had problems like how to transport cement (silo wagons), and such like
11:39:06 <andythenorth> there are cargos that need gondolas, but can't be put through a hopper (scrap metal)
11:39:16 <peter1138> you can make a cargo class for "requires stakes"
11:39:32 <peter1138> there are 8 fixed cargo classes
11:39:54 <andythenorth> bits 11-14 are free?
11:40:01 <peter1138> bits 8-15
11:40:16 <andythenorth> what happened to 8-9-10?
11:40:20 <andythenorth> spec says they're used
11:40:30 <peter1138> they're "commonly used", but not part of any code
11:40:56 <andythenorth> are classes actually present in ottd code? or a convention?
11:41:02 <Yexo> cargo classes are only useful if multiple sets support them. So changing 8-9-10 is not really an option
11:41:38 * andythenorth needs to remember how refits work again
11:42:10 <andythenorth> there's a difference between 'compatible with' and 'requires'
11:42:22 <peter1138> andythenorth, classes 0-7 are used in the default set of cargos
11:42:31 <andythenorth> ok thanks
11:43:25 <andythenorth> I'm ignoring the HEQS mining trucks as an edge
11:43:27 <andythenorth> case
11:43:33 <peter1138> it's a shame they're not 32 bit
11:43:38 <andythenorth> grf v8...
11:44:14 <andythenorth> is there even a conceptual solution to the mining trucks?
11:44:16 <andythenorth> hmm
11:44:28 <andythenorth> so the issue is they should only carry minerals, not agricultural cargos
11:44:42 <andythenorth> so someone adds rice, I have to add it to my CTT and mask it out
11:44:47 <andythenorth> someone adds grapes, same
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11:44:51 <andythenorth> someone adds olives, same
11:45:06 <Yexo> or you do it the other way around and only explicitely minierals
11:45:09 <andythenorth> could do
11:45:18 <andythenorth> then someone adds phosphates, I need to update HEQS
11:45:23 <Yexo> of course you'd have the same problem if someone added a new mineral cargo
11:45:44 <andythenorth> I can file this under edge case, unless we extend cargo attributes
11:46:18 <andythenorth> If we extend cargo attributes some of the 'conceptual' cargos like goods and supplies get....a lot of classes
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11:49:09 * andythenorth needs to be smarter
11:49:20 <andythenorth> drawing pixels does not require being smart
11:49:21 <peter1138> add a "food" class
11:49:29 <andythenorth> hmm
11:49:32 <andythenorth> that is interesting
11:49:36 <peter1138> then disallow all food
11:49:48 <andythenorth> should town buildings have supported classes?
11:50:06 <andythenorth> the convention is that industry set defines cargos, but not also houses
11:50:15 <andythenorth> which must be....interesting for house set authors
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11:52:04 <andythenorth> I started thinking about this because of the new auto-refit & cb
11:52:15 <andythenorth> if I have a tanker carrying milk, can it refit to petrol?
11:52:19 <andythenorth> at the station?
11:52:23 <andythenorth> for £0?
11:53:00 <andythenorth> both are liquid...
11:53:16 <planetmaker> if you set refit costs to 0 and allow station-refit: then yes
11:53:22 <planetmaker> it's the newgrf author's choice
11:53:27 <andythenorth> yes
11:53:35 <andythenorth> so should I allow it?
11:53:47 <planetmaker> I would not allow that. Only the other way around
11:53:47 <andythenorth> if my open wagon has carried coal, can it now carry grain?
11:53:57 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how would you allow / prevent it?
11:54:08 <andythenorth> reliably
11:54:17 <planetmaker> dirty->dirty: yes. clean->dirty: yes. dirty->clean: no. clean->clean: yes, but at (reduced) cost
11:54:26 <planetmaker> andythenorth: via callback
11:54:42 <planetmaker> and looking at all possible cargos. See my posting. Or ogfx+trains
11:54:48 <Yexo> why clean->clean at reduced cost but not dirty->dirty?
11:54:55 <andythenorth> you can't look at all possible cargos
11:54:56 <planetmaker> that's for free, Yexo
11:54:58 <andythenorth> you don't know the future
11:54:59 <Yexo> ah :)
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11:55:27 <planetmaker> that's what I showed you yesterday
11:56:08 <planetmaker> indeed I don't know the future. Depends on what you want. One might allow it at a cost
11:56:22 <planetmaker> But one can easily treat all existing cargos
11:57:03 <andythenorth> that implies you think cargo classes are inadequate...
11:57:46 <Yexo> of course the current cargo classes are inadequate. Didn't you come to that very same conclusion?
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11:58:58 <andythenorth> I am not always right
11:59:21 <andythenorth> quite often I have a delusion
12:01:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: a class like 'food' additionally might solve the 'clean' or 'dirty' problem
12:01:24 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' is how it's handled in the uk - on tanker wagons
12:01:39 <planetmaker> though I'm not sure 'food' is good. I'd not mind plant fibres in that, too
12:01:51 <andythenorth> are plant fibres bulk?
12:01:58 <planetmaker> but coal or ore... is different. Yes, they can
12:02:09 <andythenorth> what happens when you have transported fish, then refit to clothes?
12:02:18 <planetmaker> :-) smelly cotton
12:02:43 <planetmaker> fish is not bulk, but piece
12:02:52 <planetmaker> so it doesn't matter. I replace one box by another
12:03:19 <planetmaker> i.e. for the piece cargos I allow to replace one for the other w/o cost nor trouble
12:03:29 <andythenorth> piece cargos are generally problem free
12:03:37 <planetmaker> except when the wagon needs modifications, like boxes -> vehicles
12:07:28 <andythenorth> are vehicles really piece goods?
12:07:44 <andythenorth> "any unitised cargo, packed or unpacked"
12:07:56 <andythenorth> is a log unitised?
12:08:05 <andythenorth> is a piece of coal unitisied?
12:08:35 <andythenorth> unitised to me implies anything that is not a fluid or gas
12:08:55 <andythenorth> i.e. unitised just means "doesn't flow"
12:09:27 <peter1138> you're still going on about this?
12:09:58 <andythenorth> yup
12:10:03 <andythenorth> still confused :)
12:10:18 <andythenorth> either I'm crap or the spec is crap, or this is a lot of fuss about nothing
12:10:35 <andythenorth> now that OzTrans has flounced off in a storm of handbags, I need to take up his role
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12:12:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: the difference is much and many ;-)
12:12:16 <planetmaker> You Englishmen have that distinction. I only have viel(e)
12:12:53 <peter1138> now?
12:12:53 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that is a nice way of putting it :)
12:13:04 <peter1138> has he flounced again?
12:13:05 <andythenorth> peter1138: well quite recently
12:13:22 <andythenorth> I had a chat with danmack, canset has been abandoned by oztrans
12:13:30 <andythenorth> he was probably the only one left using the patch
12:13:53 <andythenorth> well him and wallyweb, and wallyweb mostly uses ottd now iirc
12:14:00 <andythenorth> so oztrans has been crafting an awesome set for...himself
12:14:05 <andythenorth> only now he isn't
12:14:14 <andythenorth> so danmack is left with a lot of sprites and no set
12:14:19 <planetmaker> :-(
12:14:24 <andythenorth> but Pikka is going to fix it I think
12:14:35 <andythenorth> basically NARS 2 code -> Canset
12:14:42 <andythenorth> is my understanding
12:14:55 <andythenorth> which is exciting
12:15:01 <planetmaker> he should call it CATS ;-)
12:15:06 <andythenorth> maybe he will
12:15:08 <andythenorth> suggest it :P
12:15:29 <andythenorth> anyway, I am actually trying to write down new classes here
12:15:30 <planetmaker> I didn't know he works on it. As you talk with him about it... you go
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12:15:51 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' seems to be at least useful, not least with the new auto refitting
12:16:16 <andythenorth> I can't figure out the bulk cargos quite
12:16:26 <andythenorth> there's 'bulk and suitable for hoppers'
12:16:35 <andythenorth> 'bulk and requires stakes or cages or similar'
12:16:47 <andythenorth> and just 'bulk' (goes in gondolas etc, anything with sides)
12:17:08 <andythenorth> there's also technically 'liquid and suitable for hoppers'
12:17:09 <Zuu> Can NewGRFs specify a time delay for auto refiting? (extra time that the vehicle has to stay in the station)
12:17:14 <andythenorth> e.g. grain, plastic pellets, cement
12:17:18 <andythenorth> are all fluids
12:17:55 <peter1138> CanSet v1.1 on Dec 25th
12:18:04 <andythenorth> for patch only :P
12:18:19 <peter1138> not what the post says
12:18:32 <peter1138> no update after that
12:18:41 <Yexo> Zuu: no
12:19:17 <andythenorth> peter1138: danmack seemed to think different ;)
12:19:37 <andythenorth> oztrans has afaik 'left with no goodbyes'
12:19:43 <andythenorth> not even a dramatic door slam
12:19:53 <andythenorth> and of code will be available or reusable
12:20:07 <Zuu> So if a NewGRF want to provide time consuming refits, they have to be done in a depot. (not that they can specify a delay there, but it just takes some time to get into a depot)
12:21:37 <andythenorth> Zuu: possibly the loading time could be adjusted?
12:22:09 <Zuu> possible, I'm not the NewGRF ninja here :-)
12:22:42 <andythenorth> cb36 can change load amount
12:22:59 <andythenorth> if cb36 is called when auto-refitting, then it's probably possible
12:23:03 <andythenorth> convoluted, but possible
12:23:04 <Yexo> andythenorth: but not dependent on whether a vehicle just refitted or not
12:23:14 <andythenorth> hmm
12:23:20 <Yexo> as in the next station it'd still have a lower load time, so that's not what you want
12:23:20 <andythenorth> and there's no per-vehicle storage
12:23:27 <andythenorth> so previous cargo can't be stored
12:23:31 <andythenorth> I think it's overkill anyway
12:25:04 <andythenorth> if the string for FIRS Lumber was changed to Wood Products, would it be less confusing?
12:25:21 <andythenorth> currently Lumber can travel by hopper wagons etc
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12:26:00 <frosch123> do we need a "clean" cargo class?
12:26:21 <andythenorth> "clean" could work
12:26:36 <andythenorth> provides for foodstuffs, cotton etc
12:26:42 <frosch123> btw. andy: isn't "bulk+oversized" vs. "bulk+not-oversized" what you are always complaniing about?
12:26:50 <andythenorth> frosch123: pretty much
12:27:01 <andythenorth> I think it's entirely solvable within classes, I'm just not smart enough to figure out how
12:27:22 <andythenorth> "clean" is a great class for determining refit cost
12:27:44 <planetmaker> 'clean' would make sense from my POV
12:27:45 <Yexo> frosch123: from the current descriptio of the classes "bulk + oversized" seems nonsense
12:28:11 <andythenorth> 'foodstuffs' or 'clean' solve a chunk of my current gripes
12:29:41 <andythenorth> I don't understand 'oversized'
12:29:48 <andythenorth> the intention is totally unclear
12:30:01 <frosch123> i thought of scrap metal as bulk+oversized
12:30:07 <andythenorth> how many industry sets are going to add 'transformers'
12:30:16 <andythenorth> (the electrical devices, not the comic franchise'
12:30:30 <Yexo> does scrap metal need another means of transportation than coal?
12:30:50 <andythenorth> maybe, maybe not
12:31:10 <frosch123> imo a open hopper can transport oversized stuff. a boxvan or self-discharging hopper cannot
12:31:23 <Yexo> hmm, true
12:31:31 <planetmaker> Yexo: depends on size :-)
12:31:57 <andythenorth> how can you fit oversized stuff out the bottom of the hopper?
12:32:02 <andythenorth> it would get stuck in the doors :)
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12:34:19 <andythenorth> currently I don't set 'bulk' on scrap metal
12:34:32 <andythenorth> it's piece goods
12:34:36 <Yexo> currently only GLAS and VEHI from ECS are defined as oversized
12:34:50 <andythenorth> are VEHI also piece goods?
12:34:57 <Yexo> SCRP Scrap Metal 0010 Bulk FIRS <_ that's in the wiki
12:35:04 <andythenorth> oops
12:35:04 <Yexo> VEHI are piece goods, oversized
12:35:19 <andythenorth> so all vans in every set should be excluding 'oversized'
12:35:41 <andythenorth> seems an odd class
12:35:43 <andythenorth> I don't get it
12:36:14 <Yexo> well, it fits the description: "any cargo needing special means of transportation"
12:36:49 <andythenorth> seems like a bad idea :)
12:36:59 <andythenorth> I'm going to ignore that one
12:37:24 <andythenorth> it looks like it's supposed to be similar to US railroad 'high wide' or 'dimensional load'
12:37:51 <andythenorth> I can't think how it can be used meaningfully
12:37:58 <frosch123> andythenorth: create a spreadsheet with all you vehicles and all cargos from the wiki
12:38:22 <andythenorth> the wiki is out of spec from FIRS code wrt SCRP btw
12:38:23 <frosch123> then define refittability for each combination and let some algorithm figure out the best cargo classes :p
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12:39:12 <Yexo> you can simply brute force that with a maximum of 16 cargoclasses
12:39:31 <Yexo> ^^ or not
12:39:35 <Yexo> what was I thinking ? :p
12:40:00 * andythenorth ponders defining coal etc as liquid
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12:40:28 <Yexo> very bad idea
12:40:43 <Sigvatr> hi, i'm having a hard time trying to figure out a good strategy for multiplayer games
12:40:44 <Yexo> all default cargos should never change their cargo classes, or existing sets will break
12:41:08 <Sigvatr> i guess you want to have all of your goods travel really far to their destination?
12:41:14 <Yexo> Sigvatr: how does a strategy for multiplayer games differ from a strategy for singleplayer games?
12:41:17 <andythenorth> Yexo: it would at least solve the scrap metal problem :)
12:41:30 <andythenorth> although coal would then travel by tanker :)
12:41:49 <Yexo> Sigvatr: and a strategy depends on what you want to do
12:42:02 <Yexo> if you want to make as much money as possible, yes, create as long lines as possible
12:43:39 <Sigvatr> i haven't played single player before so i don't know what the difference is
12:45:44 <Sigvatr> i've never played a tycoon game at all until this one yesterday
12:45:51 <Sigvatr> it reminds me of atrain, did you ever play that?
12:47:02 <Sigvatr>
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12:51:02 <Zuu> At some distance there will be a maximum point when you will not make more mony but rather less by transporting the gods longer.
12:51:07 <Zuu> goods*
12:51:24 <Zuu> This is because the goods value decrease by time.
12:53:55 <Yexo> you'll make a little less per vehicle, but since you can have more vehicles I think overall you'll get more profit
12:55:20 <andythenorth> hmm
12:55:46 <andythenorth> so in english, 'bulk' and 'bulky' can have quite different meanings
12:56:00 <andythenorth> and this is the core of my gripe
12:56:09 <andythenorth> bulky does not either mean 'oversized'
12:58:25 <andythenorth> so logs are bulky
12:58:35 <andythenorth> scrap metal can be bulky
12:58:39 <andythenorth> sugar cane is bulky
12:58:55 <Sigvatr> how do you break up rail line "blocks"
12:58:58 <Sigvatr> are they between signals?
12:59:45 <andythenorth> these don't flow well in a hopper car:
12:59:56 <andythenorth> nor do they travel by box car
13:00:12 <frosch123> piecegoods + oversized imo
13:00:41 <frosch123> i.e. they go with the same transporters as transformers :p
13:00:52 <andythenorth> he :)
13:01:05 <andythenorth> this does not flow, nor travel by box car
13:01:05 <andythenorth>
13:01:14 <andythenorth> maybe there should just be a class 'cargo'
13:01:15 <andythenorth> :P
13:01:40 <andythenorth> and all open / flat vehicles implement it
13:02:05 <frosch123> that picture shows bulk+oversized
13:03:13 <frosch123> imo "oversized" is just your "bulky"
13:03:40 <andythenorth> frosch123: that will leave things like schnabel cars transporting wood
13:03:55 <V453000> those models have some insane details :O
13:04:07 <andythenorth>
13:04:17 <andythenorth> ^ not for wood
13:04:49 <frosch123> not for transformers either
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13:05:58 <frosch123> i guess the problem are only the current properties for cargo classes
13:06:10 <frosch123> you can define a wagon to carry bulk and/or oversized stuff
13:06:21 <frosch123> but you cannot define it to only carry oversized stuff that is bulk
13:06:23 <andythenorth> I think the problem is probably solved by two or three new classes
13:06:35 <peter1138> cargo classes don't have properties :D
13:06:44 <andythenorth> probably solvable without any spec change at all
13:07:17 <andythenorth> we already have so much spec around cargos and classes that more is not desirable
13:07:23 <andythenorth> at least, not without deprecating some
13:07:42 <frosch123> i still favor my refittability callback :p
13:07:43 <Elukka> bah. americans get functional model train couplers that look much like the real thing, and they don't have to deal with buffers and close coupler mechanisms!
13:07:46 <frosch123> maybe i should just commit it
13:07:54 <andythenorth> frosch123: I liked your callback
13:07:59 <peter1138> cargo class labels, heh
13:08:01 <andythenorth> I can't remember how it would be used though :)
13:10:03 <frosch123> andythenorth: it allows you to check each cargo individually using various attributes
13:10:15 <frosch123> so you could actually code "oversized, but only when bulk"
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13:10:58 <frosch123> or "piece goods, but only if the weight per piece is < 1 ton"
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13:18:27 <andythenorth> frosch123: I think I could solve it with a new class, to be used for bulky cargos (or by abusing 'oversized')
13:18:33 <andythenorth> no cb needed initially
13:18:35 <andythenorth> but...
13:18:38 <andythenorth> it has two problems
13:18:46 <andythenorth> (1) we're not supposed to change default cargos
13:19:03 <andythenorth> (2) I don't stand much chance of getting Pikka to change his sets :(
13:19:09 <andythenorth> so a cb might help there
13:20:01 <andythenorth> it shouldn't be 'bulk + oversized'
13:20:06 <andythenorth> it should be 'piece + oversized'
13:20:08 <andythenorth> or similar
13:21:43 <andythenorth> bulk works for things like coal just fine
13:21:51 <andythenorth> the confusion is that scrap metal, wood etc are not bulk
13:23:55 <andythenorth> I think this is what the 'oversized' class was intended for:
13:24:57 <andythenorth> hmm
13:25:07 <andythenorth> 'scrap metal does not travel by hopper' -> wrong :P
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13:30:34 <andythenorth> what I can't figure is whether to extend 'bulk' to be more specific about fine cargos that can be poured in hoppers / silos
13:30:45 <andythenorth> i.e. an additional class there
13:31:46 <andythenorth> or better to have a new class used with piece goods, which vans etc can _exclude_
13:31:58 <andythenorth> reusing or similar to oversized
13:32:28 <andythenorth> e.g. this vehicle is only suitable for cargos that can be easily handled and stacked
13:32:49 <andythenorth> I can't NOT for a cargo class can I
13:32:52 <andythenorth> ?
13:33:02 <andythenorth> e.g. set scrap metal as NOT covered
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13:34:15 <frosch123> you could also introduce bulk+piecegoods :p
13:34:17 <Yexo> you mean set it as "must not be covered"?
13:34:52 <andythenorth> could be
13:35:32 * andythenorth is reading this ticket, which concludes basically as 'shrug' and 'meh'
13:37:35 <andythenorth> ultimately, if it takes this much figuring out, other vehicle set authors won't figure it out, unless Big Docs are written
13:37:41 <andythenorth> and nobody reads Big Docs
13:38:13 <planetmaker> andythenorth: IMHO you have to let go the desire to treat *every* cargo 100% correct with a dozen cargo classes
13:38:41 <planetmaker> it's a rough classification. It must fail for some cases
13:39:36 <planetmaker> a cargoclass like 'clean' or 'foodish'... why not, might be for bulk a good addition.
13:39:54 <planetmaker> but 'must not be covered' is... funny
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13:40:12 <planetmaker> anything which needs cover should declare the class 'covered', too
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13:42:18 <andythenorth> I can let go of that, but I'm still confused :P
13:42:29 <andythenorth> are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
13:42:53 <planetmaker> what else could be there?
13:42:54 <andythenorth> i.e. they must be in at least on of those sets
13:43:23 <planetmaker> I'd say "yes"
13:44:20 <planetmaker> then they can be in need of clean handling or don't care.
13:44:33 <planetmaker> then they can be in need of refrigeration or not care
13:45:19 <planetmaker> then they care about weather or not (=covered yes/no)
13:46:09 <planetmaker> so milk could be liquid+refrigerate+clean or it could be unitised+refrigerate(+clean)
13:46:16 <andythenorth> and they can be oversized or not
13:46:23 <planetmaker> milk bottles? :-P
13:46:35 <andythenorth> and if they're oversized they don't fit through small doors
13:46:45 <planetmaker> yes
13:47:00 <andythenorth> so the problem is solved
13:47:02 <andythenorth> entirely
13:47:07 <andythenorth> except...
13:47:07 <planetmaker> so it*s 3+1+1+1+1 = 7
13:47:08 <andythenorth> :)
13:47:28 <planetmaker> missing "hazardous"
13:48:07 <andythenorth> so the problems are:
13:48:15 <andythenorth> - we didn't set scrap metal as bulk, we should have
13:48:30 <andythenorth> - few cargos are setting oversized when they should
13:48:36 <peter1138> what a palaver
13:48:40 <andythenorth> :D
13:48:52 <andythenorth> - vehicle set authors are not setting 'exclude oversized' when they should
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13:49:58 <V453000> there is any hazardous cargo yet? :D
13:50:05 <planetmaker> for the reason "not used". Same there ^
13:50:15 <planetmaker> andythenorth: then FIRS could start using it
13:50:22 <planetmaker> for e.g. vehicles, fuel oil
13:50:24 <andythenorth> well let's set 'clean' on bit 11
13:50:28 <andythenorth> and start using hazardous
13:50:29 <planetmaker> I'd not attach it to crude oil
13:50:35 <planetmaker> And let's introduce the clean/foodish
13:50:35 <andythenorth> crude oil is inert? :P
13:50:44 <planetmaker> mostly
13:50:47 <frosch123> "hazardous" fits well with "must not be covered" :p
13:50:49 <andythenorth> and move scrap to 'bulk'
13:51:09 <andythenorth> most problems solved
13:51:34 <andythenorth> and maybe possibly adjust the wiki to be more helpful, and imply a bit less that you should have been present on a german forum in 2006
13:51:41 <andythenorth> which is kind of how it feels to me atm
13:53:43 <planetmaker> :-)
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13:53:59 <andythenorth> planetmaker: are we allowed to set 'oversized' for wood?
13:54:06 <andythenorth> as it's a default cargo, that's not permitted?
13:54:34 <planetmaker> difficult
13:54:42 <planetmaker> grf v8 ;-)
13:55:08 <planetmaker> might indeed be the point to adjust a few defaults there which are only communicated when the grf has v8.
13:55:11 <planetmaker> Not sure...
13:57:40 <frosch123> no idea how that could be done in v8
13:57:51 <frosch123> classes are not only used for refittability, but also in variables
13:58:07 <planetmaker> yes, it's a ... PITA
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14:00:52 <planetmaker> frosch123: my idea was to report changed default CC for grf >= v8
14:01:32 <planetmaker> it wouldn't matter for newgrf-defined CC for cargos
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14:02:07 <planetmaker> cargo-class translation table :-P
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14:06:41 <Qantourisc> In the ship/train/car overview, what is the symbol under the number ?
14:07:18 <frosch123> profit
14:08:23 * andythenorth wonders why plant fibres are bulk
14:11:45 <andythenorth> ah
14:11:49 <Elukka> surely they are?
14:11:54 <andythenorth> why?
14:12:03 <Elukka> they're a bulk cargo, no?
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14:12:07 <andythenorth> not sure
14:12:18 <andythenorth> what's your reasoning :)
14:13:03 <Alberth> it'd be easy to chop them in small enough pieces, I think
14:13:15 <Elukka>
14:13:49 <Alberth> and 'fibres' sound very bendable, even without Bender :p
14:13:55 <Qantourisc> a profit, nice to know
14:15:40 <andythenorth> Elukka: in that list of bulk cargos do you see cotton, flax, hemp etc? :D
14:16:30 <Elukka> what else would it be if not a bulk cargo?
14:16:34 <Elukka> it's certainly not piece goods
14:16:40 <andythenorth> why not?
14:16:52 * andythenorth -> genuinely interested
14:16:53 <Qantourisc> PS, some trains have travel time of a year :)
14:17:06 <Qantourisc> and their profit is often negative
14:17:12 <Qantourisc> any advise there ?
14:17:25 <Qantourisc> Smaller maps ?
14:18:04 <peter1138> faster trains or less distance
14:18:42 <andythenorth> Elukka: why aren't plant fibres piece goods?
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14:19:51 <Elukka> i wouldn't think they're transported in boxes
14:19:55 <andythenorth> he
14:20:05 * andythenorth thinks elukka has the same problem as andythenorth
14:20:24 <andythenorth> Elukka: according to the definition, everything that isn't bulk or liquid *must* be piece goods
14:20:42 <andythenorth> ho
14:20:46 <andythenorth>
14:20:55 <peter1138> which definition?
14:20:55 <andythenorth> "Types of neo-bulk cargo goods include heavy machinery,, bundled, scrap iron,, waste paper, and[1][4][3] The category has only become recognized as a distinct cargo category in its own right in recent decades"
14:21:06 <Elukka> i'm not sure what the problem is?
14:21:08 <peter1138> neo-bulk?
14:21:12 <andythenorth> peter1138: the definition proposed by planetmaker
14:21:12 <michi_cc> The NewGRF cargo class explicitly says "suitable for pouring", which fibers probably isn't.
14:21:41 <andythenorth> andythenorth: are all cargos either bulk, unitised or liquid?
14:21:41 <andythenorth> [13:42] planetmaker: what else could be there?
14:21:49 <peter1138> pouring as in tipping, i think that means
14:21:56 <peter1138> you could tip fibres
14:22:39 <andythenorth> but you don't transport cotton bales in a hopper car
14:24:24 <andythenorth> well you do in the game at the moment :)
14:28:29 <Elukka> well, i dunno
14:28:35 <Elukka> if you want it to be cotton bales define it as piece goods
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14:29:54 <andythenorth> what class is livestock?
14:29:54 <andythenorth> piece
14:29:54 <andythenorth> Elukka: do livestock travel in boxes?
14:29:54 <andythenorth> he
14:29:54 <andythenorth> chickens do
14:30:08 <andythenorth> I'm going to
14:30:31 <andythenorth> :)
14:30:52 <andythenorth> Elukka: thanks, you have helped me figure out some things
14:31:33 <andythenorth> specifically, there is no point moaning about classes being broken when the 'problem' is simply caused by trying to keep compatibility with ECS
14:31:44 <andythenorth> which gains nothing
14:39:35 <Qantourisc> andythenorth: if they want to be compatible
14:39:44 <Qantourisc> i recommend they share their classes code :)
14:40:17 <andythenorth> there's no gain from the compatibility, except some possible cargo graphics support
14:41:18 <Qantourisc> unless you want to run them at the same time ...
14:41:21 <Qantourisc> sounds confusing :p
14:41:35 <Sigvatr> i'm having a hard time figuring out how exactly signals and "blocks" work
14:41:39 <Sigvatr> what defines a block?
14:41:46 <andythenorth> you would have to rewrite ottd to run them at the same time ;)
14:42:02 <andythenorth> FIRS uses all the available cargo slots
14:42:34 <Qantourisc> s/int8/int16/g ?
14:43:19 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: a block is connected railtrack not blocked by a signal (note, some signals only count one way) (i hope i got that correct)
14:43:41 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: note: connected does not mean trains can go from A to B
14:43:55 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: but as soon as the rails connect, it's connected for the "block"
14:44:15 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: also note the 1 way signals, also important in some cases
14:45:27 <michi_cc> Qantourisc: Small correction, a signal block always ends at a signal, regardless of the signal type/direction.
14:45:36 * andythenorth is now feeling chipper about cargo classes once more
14:45:38 <Qantourisc> michi_cc: a ok, my bad :)
14:46:05 <andythenorth> there is only one issue I can't figure out, and that's things like logs and sugarcane
14:46:49 <andythenorth> which shouldn't travel by van
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14:49:41 <andythenorth> but are not bulk
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14:49:59 <andythenorth> and maybe they should just set 'oversized' or a similar new class
14:51:34 <andythenorth> he
14:51:39 <andythenorth> is sugar beet 'clean'? :D
14:53:28 <Sigvatr> ok, so basically a block is the rail line between two signals?
14:53:37 <michi_cc> andythenorth: If I look out of the window at the heap there I'd definitely say not clean :) I don't want all that dirty in my food.
14:54:01 * andythenorth figured the same
14:54:02 <andythenorth> :)
14:54:12 <andythenorth> does sugar beet travel in mining trucks?
14:54:12 <andythenorth> :P
14:55:00 <michi_cc> It could, I just don't know any farmer who owns a mining truck :p
14:55:39 <andythenorth> I have pictures of sugar *cane* travelling by mining truck in Hawaii
14:55:55 <andythenorth> I think a mining truck would get stuck in a typical beet field]
14:56:03 <andythenorth> an expensive muddy paperweight
14:56:26 <andythenorth> michi_cc: this is what's needed for beets:
14:56:27 <andythenorth> :)
14:56:34 <andythenorth> and that is...possible for HEQS
14:58:54 <Sigvatr> does the ttd music ever get boring?
14:59:34 <michi_cc> andythenorth: There are special harvesters for sugar beet here, but the beet is only dumped into a heap next to some farm track by them and later moved to processing by a truck.
15:00:01 <andythenorth> so they run to the edge of the field + stockpile?
15:00:03 <andythenorth> makes sense
15:01:07 <michi_cc> Yes, the sugar refineries can't take all the sugar beet thats ripe at the same time so it has to be stockpiled for later processing.
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15:02:53 <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections, I'm going to add a class for 'won't fit through small openings, e.g. large logs, bundles of sugarcane, etc, and also is likely to roll about so needs stakes or other restraining methods'
15:02:59 <andythenorth> is there a snappy version of that?
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15:03:24 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> unless there are rabid objections <-- don't tell MB then :p
15:04:00 <michi_cc> Or really go for neo-bulk.
15:04:26 <michi_cc> That has at least some real economic background to point mb to.
15:05:32 <andythenorth> I really don't care what MB thinks about it
15:07:11 <supermop> any of you guys think the euro is about to fall significantly?
15:07:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't quite remember my previous thougths on the matter...
15:07:29 <andythenorth> I just chose not to get paid in € for my business
15:07:35 * andythenorth is part of the problem :P
15:07:37 <supermop> i want to buy a integrated amplifier from germany, but will wait if it might nose dive
15:08:09 <supermop> probably won't fall in the next 3 hours:
15:08:10 <Sigvatr> so are any new features planned for openttd, or is it just bug fixing?
15:08:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Sigvatr: have you been sleeping the past few days?
15:09:04 <Sigvatr> i have been playing openttd for less than 24 hours :|
15:09:12 <Sigvatr> in fact i've never even played a tycoon game before
15:09:32 <andythenorth> supermop: your currency is $? or yen?
15:09:53 <supermop> ha i wish i had assets in yen right now
15:10:09 <supermop> usd for me
15:11:15 <supermop> i want to give up on my current set up, and go for integrated amplifier, and i love the rams pieces,
15:11:33 <supermop> the ateier being the only marginally modern one made though
15:11:37 <supermop> atelier
15:12:52 <supermop> the atelier stuff also has the advantage of a glut of examples surviving in germany, so the prices are quite low
15:13:22 <supermop> typically much cheaper than modern audiophile solid state gear
15:14:05 <andythenorth> supermop: if the € collapses, it's likely that most currencies will follow
15:14:16 <andythenorth> unless there's a flight to usd for stability
15:14:21 <andythenorth> but currently the flight is to yen
15:15:20 <supermop> bank of japan desperately wants yen to fall though to try to boost exporting (thus japanese heavy industry), but its not working so far
15:15:40 <supermop> and euro collapsing will make that worse
15:16:23 * andythenorth will bbl
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15:22:50 <Sigvatr> towns accept any cargo, right?
15:23:00 <Alberth> no
15:23:24 <Alberth> open a station build window, and wave over a city to see what it accepts
15:23:53 <Alberth> alternatively, use the '?' button and click at houses :)
15:25:15 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: japanese economy has been on a standstill for decades now...
15:26:23 <Alberth> if you click at a station, the station window will also tell you what it accepts
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15:26:47 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: finally a sustainable economy :p
15:26:57 <supermop> it has
15:27:03 <supermop> but the yen is painfully strong
15:27:42 <supermop> especially painfull for me - who wants to take another trip there to see a show on at the mori museum
15:27:50 <Eddi|zuHause> because they totally lost the race of the USD and EUR which each keep trying to drop faster than the other
15:28:06 <supermop> the first time i went there the yen was 120 to the dollar, now its 75
15:28:12 <supermop> so i cant justify it
15:28:40 <Eddi|zuHause> that's why they're milking this euro-crisis as much as they can
15:29:01 <supermop> although if i can get there i can get informational interviews at a couple japanese architecture firm where i have connections....
15:29:06 <Eddi|zuHause> if they solved it, the euro would skyrocket, and the export economy would suffer
15:29:12 <supermop> wouldnt mind being paid in yen for a few years
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15:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> there's a village in switzerland that technically belongs to germany. they use swiss money, but pay german taxes.
15:30:41 <Eddi|zuHause> then suddenly the swiss franc got incredibly strong... and their taxes grew equally, but their wages didn't
15:31:22 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23120 /trunk/src/ai/api/ (6 files): -Feature: [NoAI] Support for refit orders.
15:34:21 <supermop> hmm playing music i like to sing along to in the shop was a bad idea
15:34:31 <supermop> good thing there are no customers in here
15:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> if having no customers is a good thing, i understand why you have money problems :p
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15:43:27 <supermop> actually we dont - the us business is carrying about half the company with only 10% of the employees
15:43:45 <supermop> we are mostly web based, but we use our office as a show room
15:44:09 <supermop> and new yorkers seem not to start early on saturdays, so the mornings are quiet
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15:58:41 <supermop> i need a mac book air sleeve
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16:08:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i have books, air, and sleeves... not sure about the mac part...
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16:25:07 <supermop> work replaced my mac book pro with it
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16:33:15 <andythenorth> hola
16:33:17 <andythenorth> he
16:33:33 <Alberth> hi
16:33:42 <andythenorth> "It is difficult to construct categories into which one can carefully classify all cargoes" :D
16:33:46 <andythenorth>
16:34:37 <andythenorth> but I think I have solved all my gripes :)
16:36:12 <supermop> cool
16:40:15 <andythenorth> I don't know if it needs to be part of grf v8
16:42:18 <michi_cc> Adding cargo classes definitely not.
16:43:01 <andythenorth> changing classes of Wood?
16:43:12 <michi_cc> Changing existing cargo classes of default cargoes is a basically a no-go, even with v8 as they are just used in too many places.
16:44:06 <michi_cc> The only thing that will probably work is *adding* a new cargo class to Wood.
16:47:43 <andythenorth> that's my proposal :)
16:47:46 <andythenorth> changing / adding /s
16:47:52 <andythenorth> add neo-bulk
16:48:01 <andythenorth> for authors who wish to make use of it
16:48:05 <supermop> can i say haben gehast?
16:48:11 <supermop> i forget how i write that
16:48:15 <michi_cc> so WOOD would be piece+neo bulk?
16:48:16 <supermop> in 3rd person
16:48:39 <michi_cc> That change should be okay as no set would test for neo bulk yet.
16:48:48 <supermop> for past tense of have
16:49:17 <andythenorth> yes
16:49:36 <andythenorth> I would start testing for them :)
16:49:42 <andythenorth> and add them to FIRS Wood
16:50:16 <michi_cc> supermop: hassen or haben?
16:50:48 <supermop> haben
16:50:49 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Propose that a the newgrf developer forum then, there's no need to couple that to grfv8 though.
16:51:10 <andythenorth> I'm writing a post now :)
16:51:15 <michi_cc> er hat gehabt / sie haben gehabt depending if singular or plural
16:51:41 <supermop> i want to say ich wunsche dass Sie eine gute Herbst gehabt?
16:52:04 <michi_cc> That sentence doesn't make sense.
16:52:11 <supermop> writing to an older guy who certainly deserves Sie
16:52:24 <supermop> 'i hope you have had a good autumn"?
16:54:17 <michi_cc> "Ich hoffe, Sie hatten einen guten Herbst" for formal writing (Spoken also "Ich hoffe, Sie haben einen guten Herbst gehabt")
16:54:49 <supermop> oh, thanks
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16:56:25 <michi_cc> present perfect as a tense form is mostly used colloquially/as spoken language, but the proper formal tense is preterit.
16:58:14 * andythenorth thinks it finally made sense:
17:02:33 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Reads sane
17:02:56 <andythenorth> :)
17:03:23 * andythenorth is now lost in a book about containers
17:03:33 <andythenorth> basically anything that will go in a 20 foot box gets containerised
17:03:36 <andythenorth> including bulk cargos
17:04:01 <andythenorth> grain etc
17:05:16 <michi_cc> For bulk cargoes I guess weight is a problem, AFAIK the weight limit of containers isn't that high comparatively.
17:06:09 <andythenorth> steel coils present a problem
17:06:17 <andythenorth> I've seen pictures of them falling through the bottom
17:06:24 <andythenorth> not good in an 8 high stack of boxes :)
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17:23:36 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: i wouldn't use "gehabt haben". sounds like you translated an english sentence 1:1...
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17:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> you could say "Ich wünsche, einen guten Herbst gehabt zu haben", but mostly with an ironic subtext :p
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17:54:55 <andythenorth> he
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18:08:01 <Sigvatr> how do i see chat history in multiplayer
18:08:05 <Sigvatr> or make it permanently visible
18:09:31 <supermop> google wants me to say "Zwischen den Regie und das Atelier Verstrker, tun, die Sie bevorzugen?"
18:14:31 <Alberth> Sigvatr: I think it is in the console
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18:15:27 <Alberth> <-- this console :)
18:17:05 <Sigvatr> is it possible to dig tunnels underneath other people's railroads
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18:29:35 <andythenorth> \o/
18:36:45 <Alberth> why not?
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18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23121 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files in 2 dirs):
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: italian - 18 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_bokmal - 90 changes by eloekset
18:45:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: norwegian_nynorsk - 1 changes by eloekset
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: serbian - 17 changes by etran
18:45:42 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: tamil - 15 changes by aswn
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19:17:40 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: are you thinking to refine 'oversized' *and* have 'neo-bulk'? Or just to refine 'oversized' ?
19:18:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not thinking anything, just showing options
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19:33:58 * andythenorth contemplates whether to try and fix tram offsets, or redraw the tram tracks to be where the trams actually go :P
19:42:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I understand your point about bit 10 class now
19:42:56 <andythenorth> it's something I had been puzzling about
19:43:29 <andythenorth> oversized and overweight are not the same thing
19:43:39 <andythenorth> two different dimensions...
19:45:20 <andythenorth>
19:46:52 <Alberth> lol!
19:47:54 <Alberth> you will get many glitches with such loads, I guess :(
19:50:19 <andythenorth> :)
19:54:03 <Qantourisc> hmmm stock disapears after a while
19:54:29 <Qantourisc> that picture is old
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20:02:07 <Qantourisc> I keep adding trains to my line :p
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20:23:32 <Terkhen> hi
20:24:37 <Qantourisc> Terkhen: hi
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20:42:21 <Zuu> Qantourisc: Stock dissapearing, as with the truck above it falling off? :-p
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20:43:56 <Qantourisc> :)
20:43:59 <Qantourisc> no
20:44:02 <Qantourisc> but no time now
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20:58:32 <Sigvatr> man
20:58:34 <Sigvatr> signals are fucking confusing
20:58:39 <Sigvatr> how often does someone complain about that
20:59:33 <Elukka> just use path signals everywhere
21:00:01 <Qantourisc> Sigvatr: often, you'll get the hang of it :)
21:00:31 <Elukka> there's niche cases where the rest are still useful but for now (and most times in the future too) you'll just want path signals
21:00:58 <Elukka> i think path signals should get a prominent, bigger button than the rest and the tooltip should indicate that they're the best, basic type of signal
21:01:18 <Sigvatr> basically i had one long rail line and wanted multiple trains to be able to use it in either direction, so i extended some parts to have a second line that entered and exited the main line and had enough room for a train to wait if it needed to
21:01:50 <Sigvatr> i didn't know how to make the signals work so if two trains were approaching one another they would either turn around, or just hang
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21:05:12 <andythenorth> oh dear
21:05:19 * andythenorth smells a forum bunfight
21:07:26 <Hyronymus> I smell learning to read clocks
21:08:19 <andythenorth> for moi?
21:08:38 <Terkhen> a fight about what?
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21:08:53 <andythenorth> lighting :D
21:09:00 <andythenorth> my favourite
21:10:07 <Hyronymus> no, for purno, andythenorth
21:10:18 <Terkhen> I foresee a lengthy discussion that achieves nothing, but not a fight
21:10:22 <Hyronymus> typically a digital clock generation
21:10:34 <Hyronymus> I foresee a verdict soon
21:10:37 <Hyronymus> :P
21:11:01 <Terkhen> for a given set, yes
21:11:15 <Terkhen> but probably not for all sets :P
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21:11:30 <Hyronymus> true
21:11:48 <Hyronymus> and frankly I don't mind
21:12:04 <Terkhen> :)
21:12:20 * Terkhen is oblivious to small lighting issues anyways
21:14:25 <Terkhen> good night
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22:28:55 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:41:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r23122 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_order.cpp: -Fix (23120): Silence GCC warning.
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22:47:12 <Zuu> Thumbs up michi_cc for the NoAI support for your new and interesting feature.
22:47:45 <michi_cc> Zuu: It's not only for my feature. There was no support for refit orders at all.
22:48:48 <Zuu> afaik NoAI also lacks support for timetables which would be interesting for data collection for trip times. But *someone* has to implement it first.
22:48:56 <Zuu> :-)
22:50:06 <michi_cc> And half the order stuff might be broken anyway as it seems to not properly handle implicit orders, but that's something for somebody with more NoAI knowledge.
22:50:58 <Zuu> Hmm, is there more problems with it not hiding away implicit orders than what was just fixed some days/weeks ago?
22:52:43 <michi_cc> At least AIOrder::ResolveOrderPosition is not always taking implicit orders into account, and most of the Set* functions don't even call that function at all.
22:53:42 <Zuu> So using CURENT_ORDER is kind of broken. But not when using explicit order positions?
22:57:43 <michi_cc> The other way around, ResolveOrderPosition does complicated stuff for CURENT_ORDER and exactly nothing for explicit positions.
22:59:32 <michi_cc> And as far as I can see all Cmd* functions take the order offset including implicit orders.
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23:02:04 <Zuu> From what I can see, the "complicated stuf" in ResolveOrderPosition will make it so that it return an order position that doesn't include implicit orders.
23:03:17 <Zuu> But you are right that the order position returned by the Resolve function is sent just into DoCommand.
23:03:32 <michi_cc> That would mean it is doing exactly the opposite of what the Cmd*Order functions want, the offset into the Order* list in memory, which of course includes implicit orders.
23:04:13 <Zuu> Indeed
23:12:00 <Zuu> The bug can however not be in ResolveOrderPosition, as it is available to AIs through the API and should thus return indexes without implicit orders.
23:12:33 <Zuu> I was wondering if the DoCommand thing in NoAI would do the conversion there, but I can't find any such thing.
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23:20:46 <frosch123> Zuu: do you think any ai modifies exisiting orders of vehicles?
23:21:09 <frosch123> or do they rather assign them only once after purchase?
23:23:03 <Zuu> I don't even have this problem as I always use non-stop orders.
23:24:00 <Zuu> If they use more than two stations in their order list they might insert or remove orders over time.
23:24:08 <Zuu> PAXLink does this.
23:25:38 <Zuu> I wrote a class which models a order list (with only a subset of all possible features) but with the posibility to Apply this model to a vehicle in a way that current order doesn't get changed unless that station has been removed.
23:26:29 <Zuu> So yes, some AIs does that.
23:26:51 <Zuu> But I would guess that AIs written by experienced (O)TTD players use non-stop orders.
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23:54:41 <frosch123> night
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