IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-03
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00:33:51 <z-MaTRiX> hah
00:33:52 <z-MaTRiX>
00:33:59 <z-MaTRiX> gta5
00:35:56 <z-MaTRiX>
00:36:06 <z-MaTRiX> physics still not cool
00:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: follow up question: how can i determine the cargo class? if i use the cargo weight calculation like proposed, i need an exception for the passenger cargo class (if that's not possible then i'll need to do some restructuring in the code generator instead)
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00:40:45 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Var 47 has that info as well, not sure where NML put it.
00:41:04 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Looks like cargo_classes in NML
00:41:59 <Eddi|zuHause> oh, must have missed that in the list
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06:34:48 <Elukka> "The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution."
06:34:49 <Elukka> ...
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07:41:57 <Terkhen> good morning
07:44:40 <planetmaker> moin
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08:30:56 <appe> morning
08:31:09 <appe> Elukka: what on earth
08:31:12 <appe> Elukka: that's horrible
08:31:44 <appe> where israel finds the need to fight everything all the freakin' time is beyond me'
08:32:21 <Elukka> and you just know their big brother uncle sam would get in on it
08:33:18 <Elukka> i'm kinda worried the US will want to start another war as obama has been promising that they'll be out of afghanistan very soon and then there was the accusation that iran was assassinating someone on US soil that sounded an awful lot like a possibly made up casus belli
08:33:22 <appe> but wait a second
08:33:30 <appe> why on earth would that be official news?
08:34:18 <Elukka> which part?
08:34:45 <TyrHeimdall> probably the part where they where debating on bombing Iran
08:34:53 <Elukka> dunno
08:35:09 <Elukka> it might be a rather public debate in israel
08:35:21 <planetmaker> what makes a piece of news "official"?
08:36:33 <Elukka> it's funny how a country that sometimes says stupid shit is considered a 'rogue state' and a menace to everyone while a country that regularly invades other countries and gets away with illegal wars that kill hundreds of thousands, are considered the good guys
08:36:41 <appe> Elukka: that they "might" bomb nuclear siols.
08:36:44 <appe> silos*
08:36:49 <planetmaker> appe: no country had since 1953 fight for its survival literally more than Israel. Just think of 1967...
08:37:01 <Elukka> iran doesn't have nuclear silos
08:37:02 <__ln__> Elukka: that's because they are the good guys
08:37:05 <appe> "it's survival"?
08:37:17 <planetmaker> its survival
08:37:32 <Elukka> ln, how so
08:37:35 <appe> does iran plan to invade israel?
08:38:02 <Elukka> not as far as i know
08:38:07 <planetmaker> according to Iran's president, Israel has to be exterminated
08:38:10 <dihedral> greetings
08:38:12 <appe> i dont get it, and that might be the pascifist swede in me, but some people should chill the fuck out and stop bickering at each other.
08:38:23 <planetmaker> and wiped off the map
08:38:26 <Elukka> iran's president is not actually iran's head of state
08:38:28 <planetmaker> hello dihedral
08:38:31 <appe> and that goes for both iran, israel and all the other ass face countries down there.
08:38:35 <appe> :,(
08:38:35 <Elukka> ahmadinejad is only relevant because foreigners listen to him
08:38:59 <dihedral> appe, join #politics
08:39:06 <planetmaker> Elukka: you actually followed events there and talked to (exil-)Iranians?
08:39:10 <appe> no, ill just rage and quit.
08:39:11 <Elukka> nah
08:39:11 <appe> :>
08:39:12 <planetmaker> It's not quite like that
08:39:18 <dihedral> :-P
08:39:24 <Elukka> i mean, i'm not intimately familiar with this
08:39:31 <appe> lots of wars here in sweden
08:39:35 <appe> we plan to invade denmark.
08:39:41 <appe> (in silence, with trains)
08:39:44 <planetmaker> what makes you believe then that Ahmadimeschad does not wield power?
08:39:54 <TyrHeimdall> appe: just becouse of you I'm gonna build a railway with a depot in each end and ram 2 trains into each other
08:40:06 <appe> TyrHeimdall: !
08:40:06 <planetmaker> or who did smite the reform movement 2 years ago?
08:40:09 <Elukka> i guess he might have some power, but he's not head of state as people think
08:40:10 <TyrHeimdall> ^^
08:40:33 <Elukka> oh, actually they call the president the head of state
08:40:36 <appe> that reminds me, there is something wrong with the crasching trains in openttd
08:40:39 <Elukka> alright but he's not the main guy :P
08:40:47 <appe> you should build an "area effect" depending on the train size
08:41:00 <Elukka> oh nvm they don't
08:41:13 <Elukka> "Unlike some other countries, for example the United States, in Iran the office of president does not bestow full control over foreign policy, the armed forces, or the nuclear policy of the Iranian state, which are ultimately under the control of the Supreme Leader."
08:41:14 <appe> a fully loaded 64 cart steel train should fuck up elevation and cities when it crasches.
08:42:01 <Elukka> iran doesn't seem like a particularly nice government, but it doesn't seem nearly as dangerous in practice as the US and israel
08:42:05 <TyrHeimdall> I see an addon comming. Nuclear waste transportation and desposal
08:42:19 <TyrHeimdall> imagine the trainwrecks of that
08:42:37 <TyrHeimdall> "your train crashed, the west side of the map is now dead for the next 1000 years"
08:43:04 <appe> i dont really know why people are still fighting down there
08:43:10 <appe> it's religion or ..what?
08:43:44 <Elukka> nah
08:43:47 <planetmaker> religion is always a pretense in this context. Wars are fought for power
08:44:02 <planetmaker> Ressources. Control
08:44:09 <planetmaker> Religion is just a nice excuse there
08:44:25 <TyrHeimdall> I would go so far as to say "ego"
08:44:27 <planetmaker> to make the populace actually fight
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08:45:01 <Elu> blah, stupid connection
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08:46:01 <TyrHeimdall> I think the openttd community should rule the world
08:46:04 <Elu>
08:46:05 <Celestar> こんにちは
08:46:14 <TyrHeimdall> it kjnows enough about resource management and logistics
08:46:16 <TyrHeimdall> ^^
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08:47:11 <Elukka> so... that map probably explains the root of the israeli-palestine conflict
08:47:22 <Elukka> it's more complicated than that, though
08:48:15 <planetmaker> 안녕하세요 Celestar
08:48:25 <appe> what i see, both sides are just as hostile to the other
08:48:37 <Celestar> can't read Korean writing :P
08:48:49 <planetmaker> :-) I unfortunately cannot read much of it either
08:49:04 <planetmaker> I should, though :-(
08:49:10 <Celestar> why's that?
08:50:04 <planetmaker> would feel right [TM] ;-)
08:50:30 <Celestar> I can read quite some Hiragana.
08:50:38 <Celestar> not that I understand the words I'm reading :P
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08:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <Elukka> "The Israeli cabinet was reported on Wednesday to be debating whether to launch air strikes on Iranian nuclear sites in the coming weeks. The prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, and the defence minister, Ehud Barak, are lobbying in favour of action, but other senior ministers are urging caution." <-- it's not like this is a totally new plan. this scenario has been around for years
08:51:09 <planetmaker> And I would not need to think that long how to write 수원 when filling out some official forms
08:52:14 <planetmaker> though the Korean script is actually a quite simple syllable one. It's only 24 characters.
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08:53:46 <Elu> asdfasdf
08:54:00 <planetmaker> sure. Maybe you should change the pw :-P
08:54:00 <__ln__> and korean could be a useful language when spending holidays in north korea.
08:54:04 <Elu> i think a lot of the issues in the middle east come from foreign meddling
08:54:27 <Elu> the israel-palestine conflict was essentially created by the UN
08:54:32 <planetmaker> __ln__: also in South Korea it helps A LOT
08:54:38 <Elu> afghanistan used to be a nice country... then two superpowers invaded it within a few decades
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08:55:34 <planetmaker> Even though English is taught in school, it's hard to get along with English only
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08:56:24 <Qantourisc> How do you handly all those vechicals ?
08:56:37 <Qantourisc> Or just I just use trains ? :)
08:56:54 <planetmaker> Use helicopters :-P
08:57:09 <Qantourisc> :p
08:58:15 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: if you group your vehicles and use shared orders, it might help a lot
08:58:26 <Qantourisc> Still feeld messy :)
08:59:36 <Celestar> planetmaker: same goes for Japan.
08:59:46 <planetmaker> quite true
08:59:53 <Celestar> planetmaker: it's ok in Tokyo, it's hardly bearable in Osaka, but outside those places ....
09:00:25 <__ln__> planetmaker: indeed, English is quite much useless as near as in Belgium or Poland.
09:00:35 <Qantourisc> in our country 2 languages are teached; yet it's hard to get by with either of them :)
09:00:37 <planetmaker> Well. Kyoto and Kobe worked with English, too. But yes... you gotta have means to "navigate" through the cases where English won't help. But one has hand and feet ;-)
09:00:41 <Qantourisc> schools sucks for languages
09:00:45 <__ln__> Qantourisc: *taught
09:01:06 <Qantourisc> then what is teached ?
09:01:07 <planetmaker> __ln__: I only need to go out of the door to stop wondering how far English will get me ;-)
09:01:44 <__ln__> Qantourisc: it's ungrammatical.
09:01:46 <Elukka> 'teached' isn't a word :P
09:01:48 <Celestar> planetmaker: it's mandatory to know the Kanji for tokyo :P
09:02:02 <Celestar> planetmaker: so that if you get lost, you can get on a train to toyko :P
09:02:05 <Qantourisc> Elukka: a ok :)
09:02:14 <planetmaker> haha :-) @ Celestar
09:02:28 <planetmaker> yes, it helps a lot to know the Kanji of the place you want to go
09:03:05 <Terkhen> you guys talk a lot
09:03:15 <Celestar> funny thing is To-Kyo is different from Kyo-to :P
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09:03:52 <planetmaker> Terkhen: with the notable difference between "talk" and "say" ;-)
09:03:57 <Celestar> 東京 and 京都
09:04:20 <planetmaker> Celestar: of course :-). But that's not Kanji.
09:04:26 <Qantourisc> Celestar: and why is this ?
09:04:34 <Terkhen> it just surprised me to find so many lines after going for a coffee
09:04:37 <Celestar> well ....
09:04:53 <Celestar> different meanings.
09:04:58 <planetmaker> That's a name and there often the Chinese(?) symbols are used. And ^^^
09:05:45 <Qantourisc> Celestar: i mean the sound is the same, but the symbols not ?
09:05:56 <Celestar> welcome to Japanese :D
09:06:18 <peter1138> yeah, like "wear" and "where"
09:06:23 <Qantourisc> god ... languages SUCK
09:06:27 <planetmaker> :-) Qantourisc, you're surprised? You think European languages don't have that?
09:06:43 <Qantourisc> Well in dutch, they are weeding them out :)
09:06:48 <Qantourisc> where possible
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09:07:08 <peter1138> dutch isn't a language
09:07:11 <peter1138> it's a tongue-twister
09:07:22 <Terkhen> we should go back to grunting and gesturing
09:07:32 <Terkhen> at least irc backlogs would be shorter that way
09:07:50 * MNIM grunts and gestures at peter1138 to throw a couple of /very/ rude expressions at him
09:07:58 <MNIM> hmmmmmmh.
09:07:59 <peter1138> so it would be like Sacro then?
09:08:08 <MNIM> I think I like scolding someone in dutch better
09:08:20 <Celestar> Dutch is when a drunk Englishman attempts to speak German *runs and hides*
09:08:42 <planetmaker> Dutch? Nah. Other languages are far more tongue twisting... Just got an invitation to a dinner with борщ
09:08:52 <MNIM> mehh
09:09:06 <planetmaker> borscht
09:09:08 <MNIM> well, we do have a couple of combinations which we only share with icelandic
09:09:21 <MNIM> borscht isn't that bad
09:09:26 <MNIM> try pronouncing 'herfst'
09:09:39 <Qantourisc> peter1138: hehe, a tongue twister ? how's that ? :)
09:10:01 <Qantourisc> I know 1 language where you read what you speak ... unfortanatly; it's barely spoken :)
09:10:18 <planetmaker> german? ;-)
09:10:33 <Celestar> BASIC?
09:10:41 <Celestar> 10 PRINT HELLO WOLRD
09:10:42 <Celestar> 20 GOTO 10
09:10:53 <Qantourisc> :p
09:10:54 <peter1138> Syntax error at line 10
09:11:07 <Celestar> rofl peter1138 :P
09:11:14 <Celestar> cba to type the quotation marks :P
09:11:16 <planetmaker> hehe
09:11:18 <Qantourisc> Well ... he IS right !
09:12:19 <Qantourisc> Planning on translating openttd ... when i find more time :))
09:12:45 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: just register as translator
09:12:50 <Qantourisc> no
09:12:50 <planetmaker> easy to do via web-interface
09:12:55 <Qantourisc> as the language is so obscure
09:13:04 <Qantourisc> i need to translate 50% before i can check in
09:13:08 <planetmaker> eh?
09:13:16 <planetmaker> not at all
09:13:23 <Qantourisc> let me fetch that mail
09:13:45 <planetmaker> >50% before it becomes selectable as ingame as default
09:13:52 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> borscht <-- technically it should be borschtsch
09:13:55 <planetmaker> and available to "everyone"
09:14:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: only in German translation
09:14:13 <planetmaker> (yes, I looked up the English one)
09:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> щ <-- that's the letter schtsch
09:14:37 <Celestar> hm....
09:14:39 <planetmaker> I know
09:14:41 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: i contacted
09:14:47 <peter1138> and h is the letter aitch
09:14:55 <Celestar> Visual Beginner's All-purpose Symbolic Instruction Code
09:14:56 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: he said i need to get a large chunk done, before it would be added
09:15:13 <Celestar> WTF is a Visual Beginner?
09:15:50 <peter1138> before it would be added for everyone to use.
09:15:51 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: yes, as available for the general public
09:15:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Celestar: the opposite of an abstract beginner?
09:16:25 <Celestar> rofl
09:16:25 <planetmaker> but available for translation in the webinterface (and not yet to the general public with every build) the requirements are MUCh less strict
09:16:29 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: "as avaible for the ..." i understand the setence, but not withing it's concept
09:16:44 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: ow .... that's intresting
09:16:50 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: there are the languages you can usually select OpenTTD to use in the game options
09:16:56 <planetmaker> and there are the "unfinished" ones
09:17:00 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: Abstract Basic? :P
09:17:06 <planetmaker> which are not :-)
09:17:19 <peter1138> # f... i love boobs though
09:17:32 <peter1138> # i just really love them
09:17:51 <MNIM> now hey, this is somebody that nobody can disagree with
09:17:51 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: i'll try to remember this ones i get more free time, (as soon as my financial situation improves)
09:18:32 <Qantourisc> but right now, i MUST relax ... or i'll drop dead before that situation ever does ...
09:19:03 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: improving financial situation usually corresponds with reducing 'free time' ;-)
09:19:06 <appe> i havent relaxed in three years
09:19:16 <appe> i havent had vacation in that time either.
09:19:32 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: currenty, we are bound to 1 customer ... who is paying just enough ...
09:19:42 <appe> Qantourisc: what are you working with?
09:19:44 <Qantourisc> improving the situation, would mean get a backup plan
09:19:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you guys certainly have the wrong jobs
09:19:54 <appe> i love my job
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09:19:56 <Qantourisc> so we can update the price
09:20:03 <Qantourisc> appe: "what" ?
09:20:11 <Qantourisc> appe: i quess that would be a keyboard
09:20:13 <appe> Qantourisc: yes, what is your occupation.
09:20:36 <Qantourisc> To be frank, I can nolonger stand the incompetence there :/
09:21:03 <planetmaker> 10:19 appe: i love my job <-- as long as that's true, it's the "right job" :-)
09:21:23 <appe> or, let's say i love my jobs.
09:21:25 <Qantourisc> I like IT
09:21:34 <Celestar> I like candy
09:21:35 <Qantourisc> I just don't like the pressure in it :)
09:21:40 <appe> i own and run a call center
09:21:43 <appe> and it's fantastic.
09:21:47 <Qantourisc> and the icompetance :/
09:21:48 <appe> lots of work, but fantastic
09:21:57 <Celestar> iCompetence?
09:22:00 <appe> :)
09:22:07 <Qantourisc> :)
09:22:20 <Qantourisc> today i got a phonecall ...
09:22:35 <Qantourisc> we rebooted the server ... because we had network issue, now things are still broken
09:22:43 <Qantourisc> (note it was a Linux server)
09:22:54 * Celestar proudly owns no apple products :P
09:22:56 <planetmaker> err... sounds like the windoze solution
09:23:05 <Celestar> yeah, very much so
09:23:07 <Qantourisc> and quess what ...
09:23:10 <Qantourisc> it still doesn't work :)
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09:23:23 * planetmaker would not talk here now w/o an apple product :-P
09:23:38 * MNIM owns one apple product, sadly
09:23:41 <Qantourisc> I like apple, and I hate them at the same time.
09:23:43 <planetmaker> nor actually have written a single newgrf or ottd patch without...
09:23:56 <MNIM> I also have to frequently help my dad with his imac.
09:24:31 <Qantourisc> But I usually ask myself what is bad about a product, not what is good.
09:24:37 <planetmaker> they're quite good and quite bad at the same time. In different ways
09:24:48 <Qantourisc> I prefer products that don't suck, rather then products that suck and excel
09:24:55 <planetmaker> :-)
09:24:55 <Qantourisc> The most troublesome: openness
09:25:00 <planetmaker> eh?
09:25:07 <appe> i do like the imac
09:25:16 <Qantourisc> Especially a problem with phones (in general)
09:25:16 <planetmaker> what's wrong about "open"?
09:25:27 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: apple isn't open enough
09:25:31 <Qantourisc> well open i don't care about
09:25:37 <Qantourisc> not standard enough
09:25:52 <Qantourisc> and also not open
09:26:02 <Qantourisc> the mayor block ... where can i buy mac to run on my pc ?
09:26:06 <planetmaker> certainly more open than windows...
09:26:16 <Terkhen> so open == good quality?
09:26:18 <Terkhen> :P
09:26:23 <planetmaker> :-)
09:26:25 <Qantourisc> open != good quality
09:26:43 <appe> openttd = good quality
09:26:44 <planetmaker> open =!=> good quality
09:26:45 <appe> <3
09:26:52 <planetmaker> good quality =!=> open
09:26:53 <__ln__> Qantourisc: buy a mac mini, it fits nicely on top of almost any PC.
09:27:03 <appe> open <insert goods train on maglev> good quality
09:27:04 <planetmaker> closed source =!=> good quality
09:27:09 <planetmaker> and vice versa
09:27:09 <Qantourisc> __ln__: why ... it's illigical (from my point of view)
09:27:21 <Qantourisc> actually i'd verry mutch like to run MacOSx to learn it ...
09:27:25 <Qantourisc> however ... i CANT
09:27:29 <appe> who needs a mac mini when you can buy an aspire revo?
09:27:45 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: it's feasible ;-)
09:27:56 <__ln__> Qantourisc: you can, just buy a mac and you can run mac os x.
09:27:59 <Qantourisc> yea i know ... but is that waht we want ?
09:28:02 <Terkhen> now, "expensive" is something I can understand :P
09:28:04 <Celestar> as long as I don't have control .. it's bad.
09:28:06 <planetmaker> e.g. openttd's CF runs OSX inside a VM...
09:28:18 <appe> id like ottd on ipad..
09:28:26 <Qantourisc> __ln__: why would i want to buy hardware .. i already have hardware
09:28:40 <planetmaker> appe: it's neen done... but we must not upload to AppStore
09:28:50 <peter1138> gah
09:28:57 <__ln__> Qantourisc: because your current hardware cannot run what you would want to.
09:29:01 <peter1138> need a new modem/router/ap :S
09:29:03 <planetmaker> which is for example one of the things I don't like with apple at all
09:29:14 <Qantourisc> __ln__: it can
09:29:23 <Qantourisc> and if it runs openttd where are 50% there :)
09:29:38 <__ln__> Qantourisc: i think you just said it can't.
09:29:51 <Qantourisc> ow ... but whoos fault is that ?
09:29:55 <Qantourisc> my hardware's or macs ?
09:30:09 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: if it's only about openttd you don't have to swap your OS. Most likely
09:30:10 <planetmaker> ;-)
09:30:24 <__ln__> Qantourisc: if your PC can't run an Xbox game, whose fault is that?
09:30:43 <Qantourisc> an xbox game is not an OS /)
09:30:50 <planetmaker> it is
09:30:58 <Qantourisc> also:
09:31:05 <planetmaker> or rather the xbox-os
09:31:21 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: as said, it's feasible to run osx in a VM
09:31:22 <__ln__> Qantourisc: fine, but that's not the current Xbox 360.
09:31:34 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: do you know what hacks i have to apply ?
09:31:45 <Terkhen> meh
09:31:47 <planetmaker> no(t all)
09:32:11 <Celestar> wtf are you on about?
09:33:14 <Qantourisc> Celestar: running mac on pc hardware
09:33:22 <Celestar> ew.
09:33:26 <Celestar> run FreeBSD?
09:33:36 <planetmaker> :-) Not quite identical
09:33:39 <peter1138> is it not possible to provide a download for openttd on ipad?
09:33:49 <Qantourisc> Celestar: OpenBSD ?
09:33:53 <peter1138> or are they locked down so that you can only get things from the store?
09:34:10 <Celestar> peter1138: are they?!
09:34:21 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: you can download stuff, that allows to download stuff
09:34:23 <peter1138> i don't know
09:34:36 <planetmaker> iPad iirc allows to download. iPhone not and needs jail-breaking
09:34:40 <Qantourisc> but appstore doesn't allow adding extra mirrors
09:34:53 <Celestar> what's the point of the iPhone without jail-breaking?
09:35:01 <Qantourisc> Celestar: fancywhere
09:35:05 <Qantourisc> *wear
09:35:22 <Celestar> get a nice BMW 6 Series if you need fancywear :P
09:35:39 <Qantourisc> the sad thing atm, a jailbreaked iphone atm is the best phone option atm ...
09:35:46 <Celestar> I don't think so
09:35:55 <Qantourisc> still waiting on a proper phone OS :/
09:36:05 <Celestar> I think the Sensation beats the iPhone 4 heands down
09:36:08 <Celestar> so does the SII
09:36:16 <Qantourisc> os ?
09:36:22 <Celestar> Android
09:36:35 <Qantourisc> did they fix there bugs yet ?
09:36:56 <Qantourisc> *their
09:39:08 <Qantourisc> android is becomming an option
09:39:14 <Qantourisc> still pitty they decided on the java stack
09:41:14 <Qantourisc> the most important ascpects of a phone for me are: Security, compatiblity with default protocols (imap, caldav, carddav, ical, ...), ability to cram a SSH client on it, not needing to jailbrake, able to upload custom updated rom EASILY, a proper OS
09:43:08 <Qantourisc> BTW what's a good train station width ?
09:43:21 <peter1138> whatever fits
09:43:29 <Qantourisc> so as wide as you can ? :)
09:43:49 <peter1138> i always end up adding platforms
09:43:56 <peter1138> gets tricky in towns :)
09:44:27 <Qantourisc> peter1138: preblock the area :)
09:44:43 <Qantourisc> probably cheaper then flatting half the town
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09:55:45 <Qantourisc> How do i demolish PART of a station ?
09:55:48 <Qantourisc> and not the entire thing ?
09:56:05 <Celestar> hold ... ctrl?
09:56:07 <Celestar> some button
09:56:09 <Celestar> :P
09:56:15 <Celestar> erm
09:56:24 <Celestar> FFS I cannot remember O_o
09:56:31 <Celestar> go to build station and press R
09:56:40 <MNIM> Qantourisc: select the build station tool, then press the bulldozer.
09:56:58 <Qantourisc> indeed
09:57:00 <Qantourisc> thanks
09:57:14 <Qantourisc> costy mistake at this time of the game :)
09:58:00 <Qantourisc> btw can i put 2 7l trains on a 14l station ?
09:59:09 <planetmaker> not in the way you probably mean that
10:00:11 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: 2 stations stopped at the same time
10:00:29 <Qantourisc> zo <station><train/><train/></station>
10:00:41 <Qantourisc> Wow the first time in my life i found a usefull life for xml :)
10:00:44 <planetmaker> stations are immobile ;-)
10:01:15 <Qantourisc> euu yes 2 trains stopped :)
10:01:38 <planetmaker> two trains always need to be separated by a signal (or have non-crossing paths in a signal block with path signals).
10:01:45 <Qantourisc> ok
10:01:50 <planetmaker> Thus on one track in a station does not fit that case
10:02:48 <peter1138> i miss those early days of cargo dest & subsidiaries/infrastructure sharing...
10:04:18 <peter1138> hmm, might be making that up :)
10:07:56 <Celestar> :O)
10:09:13 <Qantourisc> peter1138: sharing ?
10:09:35 <Qantourisc> peter1138: and would you get paid for the tracks the competition used ?
10:09:44 <Qantourisc> if so: SWEET
10:09:52 <Qantourisc> PS, if any has a "co-op" server running
10:09:55 <Qantourisc> with FICS or ecs :)
10:10:05 <Qantourisc> and wants to see more life :)
10:12:03 <peter1138> Qantourisc, yup
10:12:10 <Qantourisc> peter1138: really ?
10:12:20 <Qantourisc> peter1138: 24/24 7/7 ?
10:12:46 <Qantourisc> peter1138: there is still room on the map right ? =)
10:13:26 <planetmaker> peter1138: then... we should re-implement infrastructure sharing a 3rd time? This time for real? ;-)
10:13:47 <b_jonas> why, we already have road and buoy sharing
10:13:49 <Qantourisc> peter1138: servername ?
10:13:54 <b_jonas> isn't that enough?
10:13:58 <Qantourisc> b_jonas: NO
10:14:00 <peter1138> Qantourisc, it's a 5 year old patch
10:14:09 <b_jonas> also we share the sea and the air
10:14:12 <planetmaker> 3 ;-)
10:14:15 <Qantourisc> the mayor PITA, is tracks take room
10:14:26 <Qantourisc> peter1138: i don't follow, i need it for your server ?
10:14:31 <peter1138> well, started 5 years ago :p
10:14:34 <peter1138> what server?
10:14:49 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: no such server exists. and if so, you'd need a custom-compiled client
10:14:57 <b_jonas> Qantourisc: that's why I'm now playing with a map with fewer industries, that way I have more space for everything
10:15:04 <Qantourisc> "PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life :)" -> "peter1138: Qantourisc, yup"
10:15:06 <Yexo> Qantourisc: peter1138 answered "yes" to your question about "Sharing? and would you get paid?", not to "has anyone a server running"
10:15:17 <Qantourisc> Yexo: i thougged so :)
10:15:34 <Qantourisc> peter1138: also add the option to flag WHAT can be shared
10:15:38 <Qantourisc> peter1138: and a price for using it :)
10:15:45 <peter1138> planetmaker, never looked at the IS code
10:15:51 <planetmaker> :-)
10:16:00 <peter1138> have played it though, a while ago. what does it do wrong?
10:16:22 <Qantourisc> So anyone else for the siestion ""PS, if any has a "co-op" server running /n with FICS or ecs :) /n and wants to see more life on their server:)"
10:16:24 <planetmaker> Qantourisc: the problems are not the ideas what (generally) should be feasible. But how to solve corner-cases and avoid exploits
10:16:38 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: corner cases ?
10:16:45 <Qantourisc> planetmaker: exploits: let the player open their tracks
10:16:47 <Yexo> Qantourisc: have you checked the openttdcoop servers? Not sure what grfs they use though
10:17:00 <Qantourisc> openttdcoop are restrictive no ?
10:17:07 <planetmaker> coop welcome server should run only bananas grfs
10:17:08 <Yexo> everyone can play there
10:17:22 <Yexo> both ecs and firs are on bananas, so that doesn't help here :p
10:17:32 <planetmaker> the other, might require some extra sometimes. Available as bundled download, though
10:17:37 <planetmaker> See link in #openttdcoop
10:17:50 <Qantourisc> they are not "standard" gfrx ?
10:18:00 <planetmaker> but the PS only rarely runs ECS or FIRS
10:18:15 <planetmaker> the stable server does so much more often
10:18:19 <Yexo> Qantourisc: no grf is standard
10:18:27 <V453000> ECS is never used on either of those ;)
10:18:33 <Qantourisc> with standard i mean in the online repo's :)
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10:18:57 <planetmaker> the PublicServer sometimes uses (still) other, old NewGRFs
10:22:35 <Eddi|zuHause> "feature" of the day: OSX's terminal application can be accelerated by deleting the system logs
10:23:03 <Eddi|zuHause> now if that's not windows-y :p
10:23:22 <planetmaker> ehm... ?
10:23:25 <planetmaker> is that so?
10:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause>
10:24:13 <Eddi|zuHause> that page is scaring me...
10:24:48 <planetmaker> me, too
10:25:16 <Noldo> "rm is dangerous to newbs"
10:28:08 <planetmaker> sounds as sane as the instructions for homebrew
10:28:21 <planetmaker> which kinda "require" exclusive access to /usr/local
10:28:22 <planetmaker>
10:28:31 <planetmaker> and it's "easy to use" oh yeah
10:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> "1 - 0 < 0 is an OR construct" <-- wtf? this is total nonsense...
10:29:13 <planetmaker> it si
10:29:15 <planetmaker> *is
10:30:50 <peter1138> boggle
10:31:11 <peter1138> also
10:31:13 <peter1138> toyland map
10:31:16 <peter1138> with many 'trees'
10:31:19 <peter1138> is... blurgh
10:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: original toyland or opengfx toyland?
10:31:50 <peter1138> original
10:42:00 * appe eats peter1138 with caviar
10:43:43 <planetmaker> iew
10:45:18 <appe> hm, what an exciting freud moment i just had
10:45:38 <appe> the reason i said caviar was because i was thinking about family guy, and the episode "peter, peter, caviar eater".
10:45:47 <appe> but i didnt realize that but after i said it.
10:46:00 <appe> the mind is some freaky stuff.
10:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i should feel lucky that i have no clue what you just said
10:57:45 <Elukka> Eddi - i know it's not finished, but i giggled at "Axle scheme: Candyfloss"
10:57:46 <Elukka> in cets
10:57:54 <Elukka> and all those steamers have plastic axles! what is this, ddr piko?
11:00:40 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: which openttd version?
11:01:55 <Elukka> r23035
11:02:00 <Yexo> too old :)
11:02:25 <Yexo> you need r23045 or newer
11:04:21 <Elukka> i see
11:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Elukka: and none of my DDR Piko vehicles have plastic axles :p
11:05:14 <Elukka> i have some really cheap piko ones that i think might be from the period
11:05:22 <Elukka> they have plastic wheels and axles
11:06:08 <Eddi|zuHause> wheels maybe, but not usually axles...
11:11:31 <b_jonas> plastic axles? what scale are those used at?
11:11:46 <Elukka> really cheap HO, apparently
11:12:12 <b_jonas> I see
11:12:28 <Elukka> speaking of modern trains... what really bugs me are visible mold lines
11:12:44 <Elukka> you'd think for a 300 eur locomotive someone at some point in production could have spent a minute removing them
11:12:46 <Elukka> it's really trivial
11:12:52 <Elukka> err, *model trains
11:13:39 <Elukka> trivial before it's painted, anyway
11:22:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the most expensive model i have has a price tag of "EVP 116,- M"
11:22:48 <Eddi|zuHause> unfortunately it doesn't run well
11:24:57 <b_jonas> EVP?
11:27:27 <Elukka> mine (well, the two of them) hover around the 200 eur price range which is a tad more than i can comfortably afford
11:27:35 <Elukka> i figure i want to have a hobby if i at all can, though
11:27:51 <b_jonas> yes, having a hobby is a good idea
11:27:54 <b_jonas> at least I think so
11:29:36 <Elukka> you can manage cheaper, but i like fancy stuff like sound and detail
11:36:48 <Eddi|zuHause> b_jonas:
11:38:46 <b_jonas> ah, so that's a qualifier, not the unit of measurement
11:39:04 <Eddi|zuHause> no, "M" is the unit
11:39:06 <b_jonas> right
11:40:01 <planetmaker> (Blech) Mark :-P
11:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think "Alu" Mark is a more common name :)
11:40:55 <planetmaker> might be, yes
11:41:25 <Eddi|zuHause> although you'd only need that qualifier after the borders opened
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11:48:16 <NamNT> hello
11:48:26 <NamNT> thank you very much for the game
11:48:37 <NamNT> i finally managed to beat Road Runner AI today
11:48:52 <NamNT> it's probably a child play to you all
11:49:29 <NamNT> but i feel good, heh
11:49:38 <planetmaker> hehe
11:50:32 <Celestar> hm.
11:50:40 <Celestar> new VW Up! test on the highwa
11:50:50 <Celestar> at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km
11:51:03 <Celestar> ...
11:51:13 <Celestar> I manage that with a 313HP BMW 535d as well.
11:51:19 * Celestar is not impressed
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11:56:14 <BCMM> is it possible, when loading a savegame, to choose which company to control?
11:56:35 <BCMM> (the game was saved during a multiplayer session)
11:56:38 <NamNT>
11:56:56 <NamNT> (a shameless plug due to overhyperactivity after winning against Road Runner)
11:57:25 <NamNT> BCMM, just curious, how long does one multiplayer game usually last?
11:57:34 <BCMM> depends on the server
11:57:50 <BCMM> i've been playing Luukland's Citybuilder servers, which take a little less than three hours
11:57:50 <NamNT> typically?
11:58:03 <BCMM> i don't really play other multiplayer
11:58:03 <NamNT> 3 hours
11:58:16 <NamNT> DotA takes about an hour
11:58:33 <NamNT> Heroes of Might and Magic a whole day :-D
11:58:41 <BCMM> citybuilder is where the objective is to grow a city by providing it with various cargo, rather than to make the most money
11:59:20 <NamNT> i once managed to grow a city to "overtake" three other surrounding towns
11:59:34 <BCMM> so i have a savegame from the end of a citybuilder game, and want to make some modifications to my rail network just to see what happens
11:59:51 <BCMM> but when i load the game, i don't end up controlling the right player
12:00:05 <Noldo> I think you can cheat yourself into any company
12:00:06 <planetmaker> BCMM: use the company cheat
12:00:11 <planetmaker> ctrl+alt+c
12:00:35 <BCMM> planetmaker: ah! thank you
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12:10:11 <appe> i like citybuilding
12:10:17 <appe> feels like contributing
12:10:45 <appe> though, a thing i dont like with the current core towns are the amount of people/square you can get in
12:10:49 <appe> it's way too little
12:11:13 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> at 140km/h it's fuel consumption is around 6.5l/100km <-- i guess that's less than my 18 year old renault...
12:12:04 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something broke the stuck trains patch...
12:12:04 <appe> hybrid?
12:12:34 <appe> the volvo v50 does less the .65 per ten kilometers of highway
12:13:13 <appe> a normal 1 1/2 tonne car built after 2010 should not reach over .5, unless its a bugatti veyron or a scania truck.
12:13:31 <appe> on highway drive, that is.
12:14:07 <NamNT> how do you build a highway?
12:14:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... weird... something removed all changes to src/rail_map.h ... why would it do that?
12:16:11 <planetmaker> a hg revert src/rail_map.h is supposed to do that ;-)
12:16:13 <MNIM> appe: that's a fast truck, if it's as fast as a buggatti :P
12:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: unlikely in an svn checkout
12:16:32 <planetmaker> :-)
12:17:20 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i guess there was some stray change in another patch, that wasn't supposed to be there
12:17:45 <appe> MNIM: hehe
12:18:17 <appe> MNIM: fun fact: the bugatti veyron uses it's full 100 litre fuel tank in twelve minutes while driving in the top speed gear.
12:18:30 <appe> the tires must be changed in fifteen..
12:19:57 <appe> that's what you get with a million dollars.
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12:23:08 <MNIM> ...only 100l?
12:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> now find a stretch of autobahn where you can actually drive that fast without disturbance...
12:23:51 <planetmaker> A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-)
12:24:03 <appe> you cant
12:24:08 <planetmaker> or A27 between Walsrode and Bremen
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12:24:22 <appe> 407km/h is not a safe speed, and wouldnt be allowed on the free parts of the autobahn, i guess
12:24:38 <planetmaker> it would
12:24:41 <appe> that's like ..100 meters a second or something.
12:24:58 <planetmaker> there's no speed limit in that parts I quoted
12:25:18 <appe> well, the lack of speed limit does not exceed reckless driving
12:25:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> A14 between Halle and Magdeburg ;-) <-- are you insane? that stretch is *overfilled* with slow trucks, often overtaking each other
12:25:25 <appe> :>
12:25:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: usually not when I drive there. It uses to be the most empty strecht of highway. Especially sundays
12:25:55 <appe> and i guess the german police has higher priorities on safe driving, when there are no physical speed limits
12:26:15 <appe> if i were a cop, id stop it. or at least wave enthusiasticly.
12:26:16 <appe> :D
12:26:27 <planetmaker> appe: they'd have no grounds to stop you
12:26:45 <planetmaker> unless you really pose a danger other than driving fast
12:26:48 <Eddi|zuHause> appe: speed alone does not constitute reckless driving
12:27:23 <planetmaker> appe: it's Germany. There the unlimited speed on highways is kinda considered a fundamental liberty ;-)
12:27:46 <appe> haha
12:27:47 <appe> :)
12:28:07 <appe> what is the human response time? a second and a half?
12:28:14 <appe> that's 350 meters in veyron top speed
12:28:20 <planetmaker> no. 300msec
12:28:23 <planetmaker> at most
12:28:30 <planetmaker> when you're attentive
12:28:34 <appe> between realizing and braking?
12:28:38 <planetmaker> yes
12:28:42 <MNIM> well
12:28:46 <planetmaker> rather 200msec
12:28:54 <MNIM> not for your usual city-driving idiot
12:28:57 <appe> hehe
12:29:01 <planetmaker> though of course not, if you're lazy and unattentive
12:29:23 <MNIM> but somebody doing 100m/s is not inclined to be lazy and inattentive
12:29:44 <MNIM> well, unless you're a jet pilot
12:29:49 <planetmaker> MNIM: I'd not bet on that
12:30:08 <appe> trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is.
12:30:20 <appe> air fields *pro tip*
12:31:35 <MNIM> most international airports don't go a lot past 4000m
12:31:37 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you beat me to making such a comment :P
12:31:47 <MNIM> 4000m is not a lot of space to achieve 400kmh
12:31:52 <TrueBrain> what a bullshit did that guy wrote ... if you don't know anything about C(++), it is mostly better to shut the fuck up :D
12:32:03 <MNIM> most jets in fact do not get that fast.
12:32:19 <b_jonas> MNIM: you mean on the ground?
12:32:30 <MNIM> well, within 4000m.
12:32:34 <planetmaker> take-off speed usually is quite a bit slower than 400km/h
12:32:41 <b_jonas> I mean, in the air they usually go 900 km/h
12:32:54 <MNIM> take-off is 300 at max for commercial flights
12:33:00 <appe> MNIM: that reminds me of the fantastic top gear challange.
12:33:06 <appe> MNIM: jet fighter vs. veyron.
12:33:16 <MNIM> ah yeah.
12:33:26 <appe> that might be the coolest thing a man can do
12:33:35 <appe> ever.
12:33:49 <MNIM> veyron has more acceleration below 100kmh, but a jet's power output increases with speed
12:33:52 <appe> that, and driving a nuclear bomb filled freight train into a mountain
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12:34:45 <planetmaker> appe: you should just see how a nuclear waste transport by train happens to work here ;-)
12:34:53 <appe> MNIM: as seen in the race. the veyron is a lot quicker the first fifty meters, to later be completely dwarfed.
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12:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> <appe> trying to achieve the veyron top speed on the autobahn feels inattentive as it is. <-- that's why usual commercial cars are capped at 240km/h, even if they could go faster
12:37:15 <b_jonas> Eddi|zuHause: I heared it's 250 km/h, not that it matters much
12:38:29 <MNIM> well, in germany at least :P
12:40:07 <appe> Eddi|zuHause: hehe, and yet, the veyron is limited to 407..
12:40:13 <appe> i wonder how fast it would actually go
12:40:34 <MNIM> ehhh
12:40:54 <MNIM> I think at some time past 400 it'll gain a positive vs
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12:41:08 <MNIM> which isn't good in something that does not have wings :P
12:41:16 <appe> vs?
12:41:19 <appe> aha
12:41:20 <MNIM> ehh
12:41:23 <MNIM> vertical speed
12:41:27 <MNIM> sorry, aviation lingo.
12:41:28 <appe> that might not end well.
12:41:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there was a show where they tried when a speed measurement fails in a way that the car is not on the photo anymore
12:41:45 <appe> wasnt that the case with the old mclaren f1?
12:41:48 <Eddi|zuHause> and it was something like 270km/h
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12:44:03 <appe> MNIM: if i remember correctly, the german 'gumpert' acheived some speed limit until it basicly flipped in the air.
12:44:45 <planetmaker> appe: if you build a car which lifts off at a certain speed it's ill-constructed.
12:45:03 <planetmaker> with the right spoilers it'll be pressed down to the road the faster it goes
12:45:26 <appe> well, neither the veyron nor gumpert can achieve those speeds with the normal limiter.
12:45:34 <appe> and i guess that wasnt the case with the mcf1.
12:48:21 <appe> ah, here we are
12:48:33 <MNIM> planetmaker: not so. car design is limited by the fact that the car body itself is a huge lifting body in itself.
12:48:37 <appe> "At Petit Le Mans race in Road Atlanta, the 911 GT1 '98 of Yannick Dalmas made a spectacular backward flip and landed rear first before hitting the side barriers, as did the BMW V12 LMR at the same race in 2000, and most infamously the Mercedes-Benz CLR at Le Mans in 1999."
12:48:56 <appe> you know you are fast when your car is flying.
12:49:14 <appe>
12:49:16 <MNIM> this lifting aspect of a car is simply not possible to completely remove.
12:49:37 <MNIM> plus, there's the detrimental ground interactions.
12:49:47 <Belugas> hello
12:50:10 <planetmaker> hello Belugas
12:50:11 <appe> MNIM: i was wondering, doesnt scaling of the cars size affect what speed you can achieve?
12:50:38 <Belugas> hi hi planetmaker :)
12:50:39 <MNIM> only in a limited way.
12:50:41 <appe> MNIM: that is, a car with x size and y "push to the ground", gets a bigger maximum speed with scaling?
12:51:03 <MNIM> well, you got to remember that one can only scale a car so much
12:51:12 <appe> yes, of course
12:51:25 <appe> they veyron is not that big, though
12:51:31 <MNIM> for other vehicles, the case definitely implies.
12:51:36 <appe> two tonnes, or something.
12:51:49 <MNIM> however, aircraft and ships do not have to bother with rolling resistance
12:52:00 <MNIM> which is a major component in solid ground-based transport.
12:52:10 <appe> rolling resistance?
12:52:20 <MNIM> a wheel rolls over the ground
12:52:44 <MNIM> rolling drag would perhaps be a better word
12:52:47 <appe> aha
12:52:59 <appe> with what factor does it increase with speed?
12:53:11 <MNIM> I accidentally tried to literally translate from my own native language.
12:53:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't increase with speed
12:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> wind resistance increases with speed
12:53:33 <MNIM> it does, eddi
12:53:44 <MNIM> linearly, as opposed to quadratic air drag
12:54:04 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23083 /trunk/src/ (engine.cpp saveload/afterload.cpp): -Fix: run StartupEngines() if NewGRFs changed during loading a savegame, just like it's running when NewGRFs are changed during a game
12:54:04 <Eddi|zuHause> rolling resistance rather decreases, due to the wheels getting warmer
12:54:16 <MNIM> minimally, eddi
12:54:31 <MNIM> there's a reason why high-speed trains simply don't go much past 300
12:54:43 <Celestar> yeah.
12:54:46 <Celestar> wear and tear.
12:54:46 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, that reason is wind resistance
12:54:55 <Celestar> an ICE can go around 420km/h.
12:55:06 <Eddi|zuHause> especially at tunnel entrances
12:55:08 <MNIM> not regularly.
12:55:12 <Celestar> yes.
12:55:17 <MNIM> besides loss of efficiency due to wind and rolling resistance, there's material wear
12:55:17 <Celestar> because of wear and tear.
12:55:25 <Celestar> which makes the cost explode.
12:55:26 <MNIM> which *does* increas quadratically with ground speed
12:55:37 <Celestar> MNIM: not for airplanes.
12:55:47 <MNIM> actually, it does
12:55:55 <Celestar> no. it doesn't.
12:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> if you enter a tunnel beyond 600km/h, you might as well go right into the mountain...
12:55:58 <MNIM> though the curve is *far* higher than ground transport.
12:56:27 <MNIM> there's a reason why most civvy aircraft don't go past 900
12:56:28 <Celestar> MNIM: aerodynamic drag has a minimum for airplanes.
12:56:34 <Celestar> it's not ~x²
12:56:45 <Celestar> v² even.
12:56:51 <MNIM> I know.
12:57:08 <MNIM> but even for aircraft a max speed applies mostly due to wear and tear.
12:57:12 <appe> v^2 is a alot..
12:57:14 <planetmaker> MNIM: the 1000km/h boundary has another reason...
12:57:21 <Celestar> a VERY other reason :P
12:57:26 <Celestar> Mach resistance.
12:57:29 <MNIM> I know that.
12:57:37 <planetmaker> which is the onset of turbulence due to ^^^
12:57:43 <MNIM> they can theoretically go 1000, in fact, most can in reality
12:57:52 <MNIM> but it's not very nice for your engines, for starters
12:58:15 <planetmaker> you want other engines than commercial airliners have
12:58:18 <Celestar> TAS? nope.
12:58:18 <Celestar> not in straigh and level flight.
12:58:50 <MNIM> yes they can.
12:59:07 <MNIM> not at MTOW, naturally, but most aircraft can't even get to cruise at MTOW
12:59:13 <appe> mtow?
12:59:23 <MNIM> maximum take-off weight
12:59:35 <Celestar> considering that you need time to get to cruise, you will be lower than MTOW
13:00:11 <MNIM> as a general rule, yes.
13:00:16 <Celestar> but 1000km/h is basically impossible in straight and level for most airliners.
13:00:16 <Celestar> MAYBE the 747SP manages
13:00:16 <Celestar> otoh.
13:00:16 <Celestar> we're talking Mach numbers.
13:00:17 <Celestar> if it's hot enough up there, maybe :P
13:00:36 <Celestar> and for modern airbii ....
13:00:38 <MNIM> quite the opposite, celestar
13:00:46 <appe> got damnit
13:00:49 <appe> i hate openttd airfield
13:00:51 <appe> s
13:00:52 <MNIM> higher temperature means less engine power
13:00:55 <Celestar> good luck getting past the overspeed protection.
13:01:02 <Celestar> MNIM: but higher speed of sound :P
13:01:17 <MNIM> quite irrelevant.
13:01:20 <Celestar> well you CAN get around the overspeed protection, theoretically :P
13:01:34 <Celestar> push the circut breaker of two ELACs :P
13:01:39 <Celestar> and then ... get a new job.
13:01:48 <MNIM> at most aircraft's cruise height, you're still a way away from the speed of sound or overspeed
13:02:16 <Celestar> you are around 20-40 KIAS from overspeed.
13:02:34 <MNIM> which equals about 100kmh at that altitude
13:02:44 <appe> is there a grf that allows me to make bigger airports, or at least build them together?
13:02:47 <Celestar> which isn't much.
13:03:02 <Celestar> one bad gust and you're in there.
13:03:07 <appe> btw, i was thinking
13:03:15 <Celestar> then your airbus will reduce engine power and pull up the nose.
13:03:18 <MNIM> gust generally don't exist at FL360
13:03:25 <Celestar> LMAO
13:03:27 <Celestar> right.
13:03:43 <appe> afaik, most speed measurements rely on how much air you suck into a given point. how can this be used on altitude where air is thinner with vertical position?
13:03:57 <MNIM> appe: no grfs alone. there's a patch which supposedly works, though
13:04:07 <Celestar> appe: because what matters for aerodynamics is NOT the actualy speed.
13:04:11 <MNIM> appe: gps, doppler
13:04:17 <Celestar> appe: but v² * density.
13:04:27 <MNIM> roughly.
13:04:29 <Celestar> so indicated airspeed is the best measurement you have.
13:04:47 <Celestar> MNIM: modern high-end long range airliners are scaringly close to the coffin corner.
13:05:05 <MNIM> at their max speed, yes. not at cruise
13:05:11 <Celestar> at cruise.
13:05:24 <Celestar> there's not much headroom.
13:05:47 <Celestar> ask the AF447 pilots.
13:05:50 <MNIM> only 360k feet
13:05:51 <MNIM> :P
13:05:53 <Celestar> no wait. you can't.
13:06:10 <Celestar> as AF447 shows, 36k feet isn't much headroom either :P
13:06:34 <Celestar> it's not enough to recover a completly intact airliner from a (deep?) stall.
13:07:03 <MNIM> deep stall is usually a condition you prefer to prevent rather than recover.
13:07:12 <appe> Celestar: i see
13:07:24 <Celestar> MNIM: well. any kind of stall.
13:07:38 <MNIM> Celestar: not necessarily.
13:07:43 <Celestar> and with the A330 in normal mode, she won't let you stall.
13:07:50 <appe> what does deep stall mean?
13:08:04 <MNIM> the difference between stall and deep stall is that deep stall is A: a design fault B: virtually unrecoverable
13:08:13 <Celestar> BS
13:08:36 <Celestar> a deep stall is a stall where the horizonal stabilizer and elevator are either in the wake of the stalled wing, or stalled themselves, rendering them unusable.
13:08:41 <Eddi|zuHause> is that like the difference between a "GAU" and a "SuperGAU"?
13:08:45 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: nope.
13:08:53 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: two totally different recovery techniques.
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13:09:27 <MNIM> that's why I called design fault.
13:09:33 <planetmaker> nevertheless a deep stall is something I'd avoid at quite a cost ;-)
13:09:38 <Celestar> a deep stall isn'T a design fault :P
13:09:42 <MNIM> yes, you should :P
13:09:56 <MNIM> proper aircraft design makes it virtually impossible to to go that far
13:10:03 <Celestar> erm.
13:10:10 <Celestar> you can stall ANY aircraft.
13:10:22 <MNIM> on purpose, yes.
13:10:31 <planetmaker> MNIM: is right though: some designs make it easier to get into deep stall
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13:10:33 <Eddi|zuHause> "virtually impossible"...
13:10:38 <MNIM> when you're not doing it on purpose, it shouldn't be able to
13:10:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd slap everybody in the face who uses that word
13:10:51 <MNIM> as in general an aircraft is designed to provide more forward momentum the bigger the AOA is
13:10:52 <Celestar> MNIM: I suppose you are not an ATPL holder :P
13:11:09 <MNIM> it should correct itself.
13:11:27 <planetmaker> you have one, Celestar?
13:11:53 <Celestar> planetmaker: nope :P
13:11:56 <MNIM> the biggest exceptions are military (offensive) aircraft
13:11:58 <planetmaker> oh :-(
13:12:00 <Celestar> planetmaker: aerospace engineer, remember? :P
13:12:14 <Celestar> but I know the other side pretty well.
13:12:17 <planetmaker> yes, of course. That doesn't include piloting licenses, you know ;-)
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13:12:43 <MNIM> since that self-correcting moment does also reduce maneuverability
13:12:56 <Celestar> MNIM: you're talking about something completly different here.
13:13:03 <planetmaker> once in a deep stall there's hardly any self-correcting moment...
13:13:19 <Celestar> MNIM: stability around the pitch axis has nothing to do with "automagic" stall recovery.
13:13:19 <MNIM> planetmaker: quite the opposite, in fact
13:13:37 <MNIM> it does.
13:13:54 <Celestar> and once your AOA is around 40°, things look slightly different....
13:14:13 <MNIM> true, but in general you shouldn't be in that range in the first place.
13:14:14 <planetmaker> 40° AoA...
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13:14:22 <MNIM> unless you're a modern fighter pilot.
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13:14:31 <Celestar> planetmaker: I've spent hours simulating the AF330 accident. in a real sim :P
13:14:42 <planetmaker> he :-)
13:15:06 <Celestar> MNIM: well. it happens.
13:15:12 <Celestar> MNIM: in an "unstallable" aircraft.
13:15:27 <Celestar> and the A330 is unstallable
13:15:33 <planetmaker> hm, AF330?
13:15:35 <Celestar> (in Normal Law)
13:15:51 <planetmaker> you mean AF447?
13:16:00 <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah. AF A330 I meant :P
13:16:05 <planetmaker> :-)
13:16:24 <planetmaker> so what was the cause again? :-)
13:16:39 <planetmaker> iirc it was piloting error and mis-judgement of the situation
13:16:42 <Celestar> if I knew, I would be more clever than the investigators :P
13:16:58 <Celestar> well piloting error....
13:17:12 <Celestar> The pilots did not really realize they were in a stall condition.
13:17:20 <planetmaker> which is kinda bad
13:17:38 <planetmaker> though the plane should give clear indications of that situation
13:17:44 <planetmaker> stick shaker being one of it
13:18:14 <Celestar> the stall warning in the A330 disables below 60 KIAS.
13:18:24 <Celestar> and the IAS was below 60 knots.
13:18:25 <planetmaker> uh...
13:18:44 <planetmaker> that sounds like design fault
13:19:03 <MNIM> "The plane rolled slightly and the pilot flying pulled the nose back. The pilot repeatedly pulled back on the stick, producing a stall, continuing even while the stall warning sounded continuously for 54 seconds."
13:19:04 <MNIM> >.<
13:19:14 <planetmaker> yup
13:19:22 <planetmaker> pull back is the wrong reaction on stall
13:19:29 <MNIM> verily much so.
13:19:45 <planetmaker> that's why I said "pilot error"
13:19:46 <MNIM> the stall warning sounded, a wing dropped, and the AP disconnected.
13:19:57 <planetmaker> which it should upon stall
13:20:13 <MNIM> that should have been reason enough to nose-down.
13:20:23 <MNIM> basic pilot training.
13:20:42 <Celestar> first thing that happened was the plane switched to Alternate Law.
13:21:00 <__ln__>
13:21:08 <planetmaker> what's that, Celestar?
13:21:42 <Celestar> planetmaker: it defines what protections you have.
13:22:04 <Celestar> planetmaker: Normal Law, Alternate Law, Abnormal (Alternate) Law, Direct Law, (Mechanical)
13:22:22 <Celestar> in Normal Law, you can pull the stick back all you want, you cannot stall.
13:22:50 <Celestar> in Alternate Law, the stall protection is lost.
13:23:12 <Celestar> so if the plane loses altitude, and the AP disconnects, the first thing you do is try to maintain alititude.
13:23:26 <planetmaker> to "fly the plane" ;-)
13:23:37 <Celestar> because with today's 500ft vertical separation, you have little room.
13:23:44 <glx> <MNIM> that should have been reason enough to nose-down. <-- but that's not the procedure
13:23:47 <planetmaker> should be priority. I watched too much airdisaster investigation ;-)
13:24:02 <planetmaker> well. over the mid-atlantic it hardly matters
13:24:03 <MNIM> no glx, only basic pilot training.
13:24:07 <MNIM> wing drops? nose down.
13:24:12 <MNIM> stall warning? nose down.
13:24:15 <Celestar> planetmaker: Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
13:24:24 <planetmaker> yup :-)
13:24:28 <MNIM> ap disconnect? nose-down, increase throttle.
13:24:36 <glx> for military pilots maybe MNIM, but civilian pilots don't learn that
13:24:45 <planetmaker> glx: sure they do
13:24:47 <Celestar> Nose down is HARD if the trim is full nose-up.
13:24:48 <glx> they follow the makers procedure
13:24:50 <MNIM> all pilots do.
13:25:07 <Celestar> also, if you are in a full stall you do NOT increase the throttle.
13:25:14 <planetmaker> though ap disconnect does not necessarily mean nose down...
13:25:35 <Celestar> because increasing the "throttle" pulls your nose up.
13:25:38 <MNIM> not necessarily, but stall or system malfunction is usually the cause
13:25:49 <MNIM> Celestar: aircraft dependant.
13:25:56 <Celestar> in civilian airlines, mostly.
13:26:03 <Celestar> all wing mounted
13:26:06 <MNIM> in modern transonic airliners, yes.
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13:26:33 <Celestar> fact is, the AF447 situation is really complicated.
13:26:45 <MNIM> for most regional aircraft it isn't.
13:26:55 <glx> no fiable altitude info
13:27:06 <glx> in the middle of a storm
13:27:15 <Celestar> isolating the failure to recognize the stall is 1) jumping to conclusion and 2) dangerous.
13:27:57 <planetmaker> why is that dangerous?
13:28:11 <Celestar> because you might miss other failure points.
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13:28:24 <Celestar> which could be remedied to avoid the problem in the future.
13:29:09 <Celestar> for example not using bad pitots in the first place.
13:29:13 <planetmaker> in the aftermath: yes. But when in the situation? Not sure
13:29:29 <Celestar> we're here in a hindsight situation :P
13:29:35 <planetmaker> :-)
13:29:50 <Celestar> if an A330 is in a stall, a multitude of things have already gone very wrong.
13:30:06 <planetmaker> In that case: of course all possible causes and contributions have to be considered
13:30:13 <Celestar> especially at cruise altitude and speed.
13:30:20 <planetmaker> as any way to make the situation less likely and easier to understand for the pilots
13:30:37 <Celestar> for example: an AOA display MIGHT have helped.
13:30:45 <planetmaker> the first was riding out that kind of storm ;-)
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13:31:18 <planetmaker> though they might not have had a chance to avoid it
13:31:40 <glx> Sainte-Odile was a good example of missing understanding :)
13:31:45 <Celestar> the weather wasn't really an issue apart from the icing of the pitots.
13:32:10 <planetmaker> which is a usual thing to happen in that kind of weather
13:32:24 <glx> speed or angle displayed on the same screen without unit
13:32:32 <planetmaker> uh, yes
13:33:14 <Celestar> planetmaker: if you still have the friggen Thales equipment yes. Which most airlines have replaced by BF Goodrich (afaik) years ago due to exactly that issue
13:33:38 <planetmaker> iirc AF didn't. Or did they?
13:33:50 <Celestar> on some planes, yes.
13:36:49 <Celestar> but Thales being French might have played a role?
13:39:03 <planetmaker> :-)
13:39:33 <planetmaker> It's weired company, though I only learnt to know somewhat it's space division
13:39:38 <planetmaker> *its
13:41:03 <Celestar> anyway, the question is: If the pilots had known all the time that they were in a stall condition, would they have been able to recover?
13:45:11 <planetmaker> that's the 3nd question IMHO. The first is "why didn't they know?". The 2nd is "Why did they respond as they did?". And then that one
13:49:31 <michi_cc> AF didn't want the Backup Speed Scale, which is basically an AoA indicator (just without absolute numbers).
13:51:12 <Celestar> there IS an AOA indicator
13:51:26 <Celestar> on some page of the flight management computer.
13:51:45 <planetmaker> not helpful in such situation ;-)
13:51:55 <glx> there are too many pages ;)
13:52:38 <Celestar> indeed.
13:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the concept of "pages" sounds very wrong
13:52:49 <Celestar> you don't have time to browse through the output
13:53:34 <Celestar> several things to consider.
13:53:45 <glx> "hundreds" of displays was not better either
13:53:53 <Celestar> High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained.
13:54:16 <Eddi|zuHause> everything that you can't overview at a glance is like it's not there at all
13:54:46 <Celestar> High-speed high altitude stalls are very rarely trained because there is very very little data from those flight regimes and thus the simulation might be misleading, if not totally wrong.
13:55:27 <michi_cc> Offered since 2006 exactly because of previous problems with unreliable airspeed:
13:55:38 <Celestar> michi_cc: yep
13:56:02 <Celestar> not sure the plane in question had that installed.
13:56:02 <Celestar> or rather I'm pretty sure she hadn't :P
13:56:20 <Qantourisc> OK reasking: anyone with a fun coop server ?
13:57:34 <Celestar> "“the speed scale will display the back-up speed information derived from the angle of attack with the very simple logic – you have red and green and the logic is ‘fly the green’,”"
13:57:38 <Celestar> this is how it should be.
13:58:00 <michi_cc> AFAIR AF neither installed the BSS nor changed the pitot tubes after the 2007 recommendation by the manufacturer.
13:59:05 <Celestar> see above. maybe because Thales is French?
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14:01:17 <michi_cc> Maybe, maybe not. They do fly non-french Boeings though
14:02:10 <Celestar> yeah sure.
14:02:37 <Celestar> but political pressure on AF is high.
14:04:33 <appe> is there a mac version of openttd?
14:05:53 <planetmaker> did you look?
14:06:38 <Qantourisc> appe: yes i saw it pass earlier today
14:06:50 <Qantourisc> appe: if you mean a version with trains that ship ipods ... no idea :)
14:10:40 <Celestar> michi_cc: for your newmap thing, what is and what isn'T finished yet?
14:11:26 <michi_cc> Celestar: The only user-visible change is multiple rail types and owners on a single tile.
14:12:05 <Celestar> michi_cc: well, but no "known bugs" left?
14:12:39 <michi_cc> My local repo also has changes to split MP_STATION up.
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14:13:48 <michi_cc> Not really. There are two or three small fixes that exists only locally, but nothing big. And in theory you can compile a binary from any commit and still get a working OpenTTD.
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14:14:21 <Celestar> michi_cc: split MP_STATION into what?
14:14:40 <michi_cc> MP_RAILWAY + MP_ROAD + MP_STATION
14:14:50 <Celestar> railway + road + station? :P
14:15:25 <michi_cc> Well, either road or rail :) It's not really needed now, but would make implementing road types easier.
14:15:32 <Celestar> yeah.
14:15:39 <Celestar> same for tunnels/bridges
14:15:48 <michi_cc> Next up after that would be devirtualization of wormholes.
14:16:55 <Celestar> so bridge would be MP_RAILWAY+MP_BRIDGE?
14:17:07 <Celestar> or MP_RAILWAY+MP_STATION+MP_BRIDGE :D
14:17:16 <planetmaker> :-D
14:17:53 <michi_cc> MP_BRIDGE would be the base tile. I'm not sure yet whether to split MP_TUNNELBRIDGE or keep the same type for both.
14:18:16 <Celestar> I found that splitting it removes a shitload of specialcasing.
14:18:31 <michi_cc> Tile order in the map storage is actually important because it's also the drawing order.
14:18:49 <Celestar> sounds right :)
14:19:44 <Celestar> so how would a road look with a rail bridge over it with a crossing rail bridge with station over that? :P
14:20:40 <Celestar> oh .. yeahz. .. CLEAR :P
14:21:08 <Celestar> which would then enable non-straight bridges :P
14:22:06 <appe> Qantourisc: :D
14:22:24 <appe> the headquarter on the mac core version should be steve jobs summer house in california
14:23:25 <planetmaker> appe: we cannot and must not differ between OS
14:23:32 <planetmaker> Or multiplayer would be inherently broken
14:24:22 <peter1138> hm
14:24:48 <Celestar> michi_cc: how does a "bridge" tile find its "bridge" neighbour ?
14:25:26 <peter1138> does it need to?
14:25:34 <michi_cc> Tile height
14:25:35 <Celestar> well...
14:25:50 <planetmaker> peter1138: of course one might use os-specific base sets... but they then would work on any OS
14:25:56 <michi_cc> For rail/road it would be a combination of tile height and enter direction
14:25:58 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah, but algorithmically? traverse via the base tile or do you have some kinda cached map?
14:26:06 <peter1138> planetmaker, wasn't hming at that ;)
14:26:13 <planetmaker> :-) k
14:26:33 <appe> planetmaker: that's a very healthy approach, as much as it is a very serious answer to a not so serious question.
14:26:36 <appe> :p
14:26:54 <michi_cc> No idea yet :) Basic implementation would be by just traversing the stack at the tile index. Have to see whether something more complicated is even needed.
14:27:20 <Celestar> yeah
14:27:29 * Celestar is already prematurely optimizing
14:27:46 <appe> i just noticed something
14:27:51 <Celestar> a roach?
14:27:52 <appe> there isnt a reliant robin grf.
14:28:09 <Celestar> michi_cc: the more I look at it, the more I like your idea :)
14:28:35 <peter1138> as long as it'll run on my pc
14:28:44 <Celestar> peter1138: ?
14:37:30 <Celestar> YAY.
14:37:39 <Celestar> Zero Bug Beer \o/
14:39:44 <Yexo> michi_cc: are there open problems why newmap could not be committed?
14:41:09 <planetmaker> was a performance test done (iirc yes, but... my memory)?
14:41:19 <michi_cc> Right now it comes with a noticeable performance hit. Repacking the map bits will help somewhat, as does chaning TileIndex to Tile* where possible, but in the end it will be slower.
14:41:34 <michi_cc> As I don't know how much slower...
14:41:44 <Celestar> I tried it with some large map yesterday.
14:41:53 <Celestar> with thousands of vehicles.
14:41:53 <Yexo> ok, tha's a clear answer :)
14:42:12 <MNIM> hmmmmh.
14:42:17 <MNIM> nuclear trains.
14:42:34 <Celestar> The TileLoop was about 50% slower (compared to a single m1-m7 struct). The VehicleLoop was nearly 10%.
14:42:53 <Celestar> The Vehicle loop took about 30 times as long as the vehicle loop
14:43:01 <peter1138> that doesn't have any context though
14:43:13 <Celestar> what context you need? :P
14:43:17 <peter1138> how much time overall is taken by the tileloop
14:43:27 <Celestar> 1.5 million cycles.
14:43:32 <peter1138> that's not time
14:43:46 <peter1138> 50% slower if it takes only 1% of the total cpu time
14:43:51 <peter1138> means nothing
14:44:12 <Celestar> it took around 2.5%
14:45:20 <planetmaker> peter1138: but as long as it's only a code change (and no gameplay advantage), a performance hit is not that much sensible
14:45:22 <Celestar> of course, on a new, unbuilt map, it's much higher.
14:46:07 <Celestar> well one thing is certain. if you want flexible tiles, it will be slower :P
14:46:39 <peter1138> planetmaker, more flexible bridges/tunnels/stations/etc probably does provide a gameplay advantage?
14:47:12 <planetmaker> yes, that does
14:47:22 <Celestar> and michi_cc's code is not yet optimized, I'm pretty sure at some point it will be faster if need be.
14:47:59 <planetmaker> peter1138: just saying without a patch queue to actually implement more flexibility for one of that would not (yet) make sense IMHO
14:48:24 <Celestar> it could start with some minor thing? Signals on bridges?
14:48:30 <Celestar> (for example)
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14:49:28 <peter1138> well
14:49:40 <peter1138> obviously there's no point having it just by itself
14:49:49 <peter1138> no argument there :p
14:50:15 <peter1138> signals on bridges, yum
14:50:19 <peter1138> and tunnels, yum
14:50:23 <peter1138> and... erm. yeah
14:50:29 <Celestar> peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope.
14:50:34 <michi_cc> I'll probably do some bridge stuff, but somebody else can figure out the GUI for building stuff in tunnels :p
14:50:39 <Celestar> peter1138: something that *could* be cached.
14:50:48 <peter1138> yup
14:50:50 <Celestar> michi_cc: I have some patch that allows 'slicing' the view by levels.
14:50:58 <Celestar> michi_cc: I'll find it for ya once I'm home
14:51:00 <peter1138> :D
14:51:17 <Celestar> which, unfortunatly, is saturday night :(
14:51:53 <Celestar> peter1138: performance-wise it might even help lots if we put the height of all 4 corners into a tile :P
14:52:46 <Yexo> would that help more than storing height of north corner + slope?
14:52:49 <michi_cc> Slope is "just" five bits
14:52:49 <Celestar> which could then, later be expanded to cliffs.
14:53:07 <Yexo> that's also possible if you just store the slope
14:53:12 <Celestar> michi_cc: yeah.
14:53:37 <Celestar> michi_cc: but determining the slope by using adjacent tiles is probably not efficient.
14:54:18 <planetmaker> might be more flexible, if you want to allow many different slopes or if you want to allow non-continuous terrain
14:54:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <Celestar> peter1138: context: Most expensive thing map-wise is GetTileSlope. <-- it probably makes sense to explicitly store slope and foundation info
14:54:42 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: yeah that's what I thought.
14:54:45 <Celestar> Eddi|zuHause: caching it.
14:54:50 <planetmaker> would remove kinda the foundations stored separately but would be done implicitly then
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14:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, foundation and cliff might be the same thing then. except maybe some graphics for randomly placed and player built cliffs
14:57:42 <planetmaker> yup
14:57:44 <Eddi|zuHause> (comparable to the difference between rivers and canals then)
14:58:12 <Celestar> since GetFoundatationSlope also costs quite a bit, it might help as well.
14:58:48 * Celestar thinks this calls for a prototype
14:59:15 <planetmaker> :-)
14:59:42 <planetmaker> I guess IF we really made an effort we could get the required ~1000 sprites needed for 90° rotation
14:59:49 <planetmaker> from the graphics community
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15:00:16 <planetmaker> or 2x 1k sprites (opengfx and ttd)
15:00:34 <planetmaker> though it's problematic with newgrfs... might need a setting for newgrfs which says "allow rotations"
15:00:58 <Celestar> how's that related? :P
15:01:36 <planetmaker> Celestar: you cannot look behind cliffs
15:01:45 <planetmaker> thus tiles might become invisible
15:01:47 <Eddi|zuHause> we don't need rotation when we have slicing
15:01:50 <planetmaker> which is currently not the case
15:02:07 <planetmaker> or we need... the 3d with levels becoming invisible
15:02:33 <planetmaker> which might be a pseudo-3d, but just level-selective display
15:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what slicing does, cuts of the "top" levels to see the lower ones
15:03:06 <Celestar> planetmaker: yeah. slicing
15:03:14 <Celestar> i.e. hide all things above some level.
15:03:23 <planetmaker> k :-)
15:06:29 <Celestar> and below some level
15:06:32 <Celestar> so you have pizza slices :P
15:07:14 <peter1138> mmm pizza
15:07:17 <peter1138> is there a branch? ;)
15:07:28 <planetmaker> openttd-pizza :-P
15:07:39 <planetmaker> get a checkout and never starve? ;-)
15:08:27 * frosch123 pulls the pizza from pm
15:08:36 <planetmaker> :-(
15:08:44 * planetmaker hungry now
15:09:02 <planetmaker> if you'd clone it, we'd both have one now :-(
15:09:17 <frosch123> :)
15:09:21 <Celestar> pizza is missing a copy-constructor :P
15:10:01 <planetmaker> Celestar: it's called Joey's or so
15:10:13 <planetmaker> just mis-leadingly named
15:11:36 <Celestar> lol
15:17:16 <Celestar> erm
15:17:18 <Celestar> wtf.
15:17:26 <Celestar> my caching prototype seems to suck :P
15:18:39 <Celestar> weird.
15:18:42 <Celestar> cpu usage for GetTileSlope is down from 3.5% to 0.9%.
15:19:02 <Celestar> but cycles for RunTileLoop is up??
15:19:29 <Eddi|zuHause> serious cache misses?
15:20:01 <Celestar> I'm not dirtying the cache :P
15:20:05 <Celestar> assuming static map :P
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15:20:45 <Yexo> Celestar: how did you implement it? just adding a byte to the Tile struct?
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15:21:21 <Celestar> Yexo: first I added (unused) bytes to the struct, ran it. then I made use of the bytes and ran it again :P
15:21:42 <Celestar> no remove the error coming from the increase of the struct
15:22:53 <Celestar> is there any way to force-fast-forward by command line?
15:24:04 <Yexo> run openttd with -vnull:ticks=1000
15:24:14 <Yexo> that runs openttd without blitter for 1000 ticks in fast-forward
15:24:16 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i guess in the battle democracy vs. markets, the democracy finally caved...
15:24:17 <peter1138> did you add to Tile or TileExtended?
15:24:35 <peter1138> (or are you in the other code)
15:24:50 <Celestar> I'm in the Other Code
15:24:56 <peter1138> kk
15:25:27 <Celestar> I somehow think that the stupid powersave is friggen me up
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15:25:35 <peter1138> heh
15:25:46 <Yexo> always disable powersave before doing performance tests
15:28:10 <Celestar> meh.
15:28:58 <Celestar> trying with a pure map :P
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15:34:14 <Celestar> feels good to dig around the code again :D
15:35:28 <z-MaTRiX> hii
15:35:36 <z-MaTRiX> do you write core functions in assembly ?
15:35:53 <z-MaTRiX> or only C everything?
15:36:39 <Celestar> ....
15:36:47 <Celestar> is openttd portable z-MaTRiX ?
15:37:29 <z-MaTRiX> ah so its not universal and excluded? :(
15:40:14 <z-MaTRiX> well anyway they say gcc does well in asm ;/
15:40:57 <z-MaTRiX> given openttd will take adventage of all 6 cores in new computers it might be even better
15:42:09 <planetmaker> z-MaTRiX: who says openttd should only compile using gcc?
15:42:29 <z-MaTRiX> ok i get it
15:42:41 <z-MaTRiX> so openttd will never support multicore then
15:43:01 <planetmaker> where's the relating between using asm and multi-core support?
15:43:15 <z-MaTRiX> but currently there is a 4GB limit in cpu speed that is not yet possible to break
15:43:28 <Celestar> ?!
15:43:31 <z-MaTRiX> was thinking about C and multicore
15:43:36 <z-MaTRiX> ah
15:43:36 <planetmaker> you notice that statement is totally non-sense?
15:43:40 <z-MaTRiX> 4GHz
15:43:42 <z-MaTRiX> na
15:43:43 <z-MaTRiX> ;>>
15:43:50 <planetmaker> and even then?
15:44:26 <z-MaTRiX> soon it may become a limiting factor if you continuously implement new functions
15:44:34 <z-MaTRiX> it will slow game down
15:44:59 <Celestar> CPUs get faster per clock cycle :P
15:46:13 <z-MaTRiX> where can i turn on AA in openttd?
15:46:46 <z-MaTRiX> (anti-aliasing display mode)
15:49:40 <Yexo> openttd only supports AA for fonts
15:49:48 <Yexo> and of course that excludes the default bitmap font
15:50:01 <Yexo> you need to change the config file for that
15:51:09 <z-MaTRiX> and may i implement AA display functions?
15:51:19 <z-MaTRiX> or its some SDL function?
15:51:53 <planetmaker> SDL is only used for 10% of the users
15:52:04 <z-MaTRiX> though you may argue with AA if you increase screen resolution ...
15:52:10 <z-MaTRiX> ok
15:52:26 <planetmaker> you may implement everything you take a fancy in
15:52:29 <z-MaTRiX> so every function is implemented in C like circle line polygon
15:52:37 <Yexo> ?? what do you mean with "implement AA display functions"? You want to do anti-aliasing over the sprites?
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15:52:45 <Xtri> Hey
15:52:50 <planetmaker> hi Xtri
15:52:52 <Yexo> hello Xtri
15:52:59 <Xtri> Quick replies, I like that.
15:53:00 <Xtri> :D
15:53:11 <Xtri> Anyone that can help me out a bit with patching?
15:53:18 <Yexo> sure
15:53:26 <Yexo> did you already manage to compile openttd without any patches?
15:53:31 <Yexo> if not, start there
15:54:04 <Xtri> Oh and at the same time, are there any decent city builder patches out there that you know about?
15:54:09 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< well it depends on the actual function it does
15:54:26 <Yexo> the function that does what?
15:54:52 <Yexo> Xtri: unfortunately not
15:54:53 <planetmaker> Xtri: did you look at the forum? there's one or two threads about a patch in that direction...
15:55:02 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< how is RGBA handling done?
15:55:03 <planetmaker> at least concerning city cargo acceptance
15:55:09 <Xtri>
15:55:10 <planetmaker> though they're far from finished
15:55:11 <Xtri> Found that one.
15:55:18 <Xtri> Hm.
15:55:24 <planetmaker> yes, I mean that. the only one really
15:55:34 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: by default openttd uses an 8bpp palette, and draws only in that palette
15:55:55 <Yexo> when using a 32bpp blitter openttd simply does the palette->RGBA conversion itself
15:55:59 <Xtri> Does it work decently though?
15:56:04 <planetmaker> dunno :-)
15:56:17 <Xtri> Well I guess I have to try it out :P
15:56:41 <Celestar> so.
15:56:46 <planetmaker> just don't patch stable openttd with it. It makes no sense to do so ;-)
15:57:00 <Celestar> in a built up game, the difference of 50% in the tile loop is not noticable :P
15:57:16 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< so only SDL blit function is used to display the rendered image?
15:57:30 <planetmaker> *sigh*
15:57:34 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: why don't you check the code yourself?
15:57:49 <Celestar> how many ticks does it take to run the tileloop through the whole map? 256?
15:57:54 <z-MaTRiX> you're the coder :)
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15:57:57 <planetmaker> iirc yes, Celestar
15:58:05 <z-MaTRiX> i was sure you know
15:58:55 <Yexo> you'd have to look in src/video/ I assume, I've never spend much time on that code
15:59:14 <planetmaker> blitting is iirc custom-defined. independent of the video backend
15:59:32 <z-MaTRiX> ok im asking these because i was thinking about adding anti-aliasing to openttd as a weekend project
15:59:50 <planetmaker> anti-aliasing for the sprites.... makes little sense
16:00:42 <z-MaTRiX> does the sprites have alpha channel?
16:01:00 <planetmaker> 99.9% not. As it's 8bpp
16:01:06 <planetmaker> and 192 unique colours
16:01:08 <z-MaTRiX> ;/
16:01:27 <planetmaker> and 80% of the users probably use the 8bpp blitter
16:01:46 <z-MaTRiX> why is that?
16:02:05 <Yexo> because it's the default, it's the default blitter because it's the fastest one
16:02:26 <planetmaker> and it's the original colours of TTD
16:02:35 <z-MaTRiX> is it hard to change it to 32bit ?
16:02:40 <z-MaTRiX> or is it that slow?
16:02:45 <Celestar> just start the 32bit blitter? :P
16:02:55 <Yexo> ^^, just change one line in your config file
16:03:08 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: you really should start reading up.
16:03:13 <z-MaTRiX> yeah
16:03:22 <Yexo> you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA"
16:03:39 <peter1138> by antialiasing, do you mean linear interpolation when scaling?
16:04:00 <Yexo> peter1138: I'm quite sure "scaling" was not yet mentioned
16:04:09 <peter1138> i know
16:04:16 <z-MaTRiX> havent been reading any openttd code yet so thisis why im asking
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16:05:48 <z-MaTRiX> peter1138<< well yes, interpolation should be there, but i meant AA specifically for the edges
16:06:05 <peter1138> edges of what?
16:06:24 <z-MaTRiX> like you draw a circle you get that squared outline look
16:06:30 <peter1138> what circles?
16:06:43 <planetmaker> I wonder(ed) that, too
16:06:43 <z-MaTRiX> was example
16:07:01 <planetmaker> there are no vectorized contents
16:07:05 <planetmaker> except fonts.
16:07:06 <z-MaTRiX> it can be applied to a diagonal line too
16:07:07 <planetmaker> which have AA
16:07:16 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: which diagonal lines?
16:07:29 <z-MaTRiX> a diagonal track?
16:07:37 <Yexo> those are sprites, not lines
16:07:40 <planetmaker> you're aware it's a drawing?
16:07:44 <z-MaTRiX> but it has diagonal lines
16:07:48 <planetmaker> pixel by pixel?
16:07:55 <planetmaker> it has no lines
16:08:03 <planetmaker> it's pixel art
16:08:16 <peter1138> there are diagonal lines
16:08:20 <Yexo> I know
16:08:20 <peter1138> in the graphs
16:08:23 <planetmaker> :-)
16:08:25 <peter1138> but that's it :)
16:08:26 <Celestar> where? :P
16:08:27 <Yexo> and the bounding boxes
16:08:33 <Celestar> rofl
16:08:35 <planetmaker> bounding boxes?
16:08:44 <Yexo> what you see when you press ctrl+b
16:08:47 <planetmaker> oh
16:08:48 <planetmaker> yes
16:09:04 <peter1138> hehe :)
16:09:10 <Celestar> anyway.
16:09:12 <Celestar> I gotta run
16:09:15 <Celestar> cya tomorrow
16:09:33 <planetmaker> bye, Celestar
16:09:37 <Celestar> \o
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16:15:08 <z-MaTRiX> [170258] Yexo you seem to have very little knowledge, and yet you want to "add AA" - only knowledge about openttd :)
16:15:20 <Yexo> of course
16:15:28 <Yexo> I meant no insult there
16:15:57 <z-MaTRiX> but i remember i have seen squared edges in openttd, this is why i was asking
16:16:11 <z-MaTRiX> right now starting it to see again
16:28:49 <z-MaTRiX> i believe the tracks rotation is incorrectly rendered
16:28:55 <z-MaTRiX> ;/
16:29:49 <z-MaTRiX> but to rotate a track correctly this way we'd need a heightmap too ofcourse
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16:32:47 <z-MaTRiX> ahm i see
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16:33:11 <z-MaTRiX> is there a function that rotates sprites? or they are only drawn as-is ?
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16:38:39 <peter1138> rotate sprites? what?
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16:40:16 <z-MaTRiX> was just asking if any sprites/images are rotated out of original state after loading
16:41:11 <glx> why rotate things ?
16:42:06 <__ln__>
16:42:17 <z-MaTRiX> so in theory i believe if the sprites are ocr-traced prior-to loading, then the graphic edges are blended correctly using alpha channel there should be no squared curves right?
16:43:13 <peter1138> erm
16:43:17 <peter1138> ocr-traced?
16:43:20 <peter1138> what are you talking about?
16:43:47 <z-MaTRiX> the aliased curves in the sprites
16:44:38 <z-MaTRiX> that is due to vectorgraphic rasterization error/missing anti-alias
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16:45:08 <peter1138> what vector graphics?
16:45:21 <peter1138> the sprites are hand drawn
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16:46:20 <z-MaTRiX> well switch your openttd to 640x480 then zoom in a station for example
16:46:53 <z-MaTRiX> you'll see pixelated 'curves' going over the station clearly
16:48:21 <glx> because they are pixels
16:48:34 <z-MaTRiX> yes
16:48:48 <peter1138> that's how the sprite is drawn
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16:48:51 <z-MaTRiX> ok its hand drawn
16:49:07 <z-MaTRiX> but not drawn at a higher resolution then downsampled?
16:49:10 <peter1138> no
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16:49:40 <glx> some may draw them that way but it's very rare
16:50:37 <z-MaTRiX> so its already drawn pixel-by-pixel, but if you convert a bitmap to vectorgraphics, then downsample back with anti-alias it will be smoother
16:50:48 <peter1138> lol
16:51:10 <peter1138> no, graphics don't work like that
16:51:41 <z-MaTRiX> yes i see this dont have to be done all the time, only applied once to the sprites
16:53:49 <z-MaTRiX> i remember i have a cool image compression program somewhere from before 2000 that does convert a bitmap to fractals, then if i set >95% quality, it started to trace down the pixels of the bitmap (at about the same size as jpg)
16:54:06 <peter1138> if you convert it to vector, you'll have a vector representation of a bitmap
16:54:34 <z-MaTRiX> and after converting back the bmp file stored in fractal-converted format to a larger resolution bitmap, it was much better
16:54:39 <peter1138> you won't magically get the extra information required to "add AA"
16:55:51 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: but OpenTTD currently never scales bitmaps to larger resolutions
16:55:54 <Yexo> so again, what's the point?
16:56:23 <z-MaTRiX> well you have 2 black pixels next to each others [(0,0),(1,1)] you can trace that as vector, give it width=1, and you can even upsample-interpolate it to any resolution
16:57:12 <z-MaTRiX> Yexo<< ok it does not, but if you save the vectorgraphics at same resolution as the origian bitmap you can get anti-aliased bitmap
16:57:31 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: by all means go ahead and show us some results
16:57:46 <Yexo> you're the one claiming it looks better, please prove all us non-believers wrong
16:58:10 <z-MaTRiX> ok :)
16:58:14 <Yexo> simply decode a newgrf, improve the sprites and encode it again
16:58:35 <z-MaTRiX> sounds like a good project
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17:57:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:01:03 <__ln__> they're not voting after all
18:01:56 * Alberth votes against not voting
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18:12:09 <Xtri> Why don't OpenTTD make a city builder?
18:12:18 <Xtri> Seems like it's the most popular gamemode.
18:13:53 <Yexo> because nobody has been interested enough to make it?
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18:23:52 <Belugas> not totally true, Yexo. Ther is a patch on forums, and not on peter1138's HDs :)
18:24:41 <Yexo> true, I forgot about that patch
18:24:54 <Belugas> and Xtri, may I question that "most popular gamemode" assertion? If it was that popular for TTD world, someone would have done it EONS ago
18:25:09 <Alberth> evenink Belugas
18:25:16 <Belugas> I WANT IT! IT'S THUS EXTREMELY POPULAR... grrrr
18:25:27 <Belugas> Hi My Lord!
18:25:38 <Yexo> Xtri: I'm quite sure the most popular gamemode is playing the last stable in singleplayer modus
18:26:15 <Xtri> Belugas what patch?
18:26:42 <Belugas> the one that lets you put houses where you want to
18:27:22 <Alberth> no it is the other way around: I play it all the time, my friends play it too, it must be popular :)
18:27:40 <Xtri> >_<
18:28:32 <Belugas> lol
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18:28:54 <Belugas>
18:28:56 <Belugas> that one...
18:33:53 <V453000> :D
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18:36:43 <Alberth> don't forget the 'fund city' in newer openttds :)
18:37:51 <frosch123> we should rename this channel to #openttd.troll
18:37:54 <frosch123> :p
18:39:37 <Belugas> i should also start working on an Undo knob..
18:40:29 <frosch123> yeah, that one is esp. useful when trading shares
18:40:55 <Alberth> what about a shouty "NO!!" on it ?
18:41:27 <Alberth> a bright yellow button :p
18:42:33 <Alberth> frosch123: or #openttd.offtopic
18:42:49 <frosch123> we already have that channel
18:42:52 <frosch123> it is called #tycoon
18:43:18 <frosch123> if you want to talk about forum games, that is the channel to go :p
18:43:51 * Alberth wanted to know about those, but was afraid to ask here :)
18:45:13 <Alberth> ooh, simutrans has network support too
19:00:24 <Qantourisc> Why can't i build some airports ?
19:01:03 *** Xtri has quit IRC
19:01:17 <Terkhen> my guess is that they still have not been invented in your game
19:01:24 <Yexo> because you're in the wrong year, see
19:01:25 <Terkhen> without more info... no clue :)
19:03:38 <Qantourisc> aaa alllow airports
19:03:52 <Qantourisc> I wanted to build a small one :)
19:06:33 <Yexo> eanble the setting "airports never expire"
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19:15:49 <peter1138> what what
19:16:04 <peter1138> hmm, big bang theory is crap isn't it?
19:21:20 <Elukka> the show or the theory :D
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19:23:06 <__ln__> why did they name an important theory after a tv show?!
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19:23:59 <andythenorth> hello
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19:28:07 <peter1138> heh, the tv show :p
19:30:02 <Alberth> hi andy
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19:33:17 <andythenorth> did I miss cb15 / cb36 being fixed? :o
19:33:53 <andythenorth> probly not :P
19:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the suggestion was to use cb15 with var47
19:36:22 <z-MaTRiX> why does openttd blogs ALSA lib pcm.c:7234:(snd_pcm_recover) underrun occured
19:37:36 <peter1138> blogs?
19:37:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the "ww" part:
19:37:56 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX: because someone has misspelled 'occurred'
19:38:27 <__ln__> yet i didn't know openttd has a blog of its own.
19:38:29 <Eddi|zuHause> z-MaTRiX: that usually happens when when the CPU is clogged so the alsa buffer is not refilled in time
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19:39:10 <z-MaTRiX> :)
19:39:14 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so do some maths in a varact2?
19:39:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes
19:39:22 <andythenorth> has anyone got pseudo code I can copy
19:39:25 <z-MaTRiX> ran it in a terminal, and it is probably stderr of openttd
19:39:31 <peter1138> you know what 'blog' means, right?
19:39:33 <andythenorth> I can do the varacts, I just can't be bothered to work out the spec
19:39:49 <z-MaTRiX> Eddi|zuHause<< oh i see
19:40:14 <z-MaTRiX> it was writing to swap at initialization, maybe thats the reason
19:40:32 <peter1138> i think it's an interaction between sdl, alsa and pulseaudio
19:40:38 <peter1138> i never bothered investigating
19:40:41 <Belugas> they all are drooling over that show here. They... mean...not me... Just by listening on what they say, i don't want to even get nearby watching a minute of it
19:40:55 <Belugas> big bang theory, that is...
19:40:58 <peter1138> yeah
19:41:05 <peter1138> utter shite
19:41:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well the formula is <capacity in tons>*16/((var47>>8)&0xFF)
19:41:25 <TrueBrain> Belugas: but but but ... booobbbiiieeessss..... *drewl*
19:41:32 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: where you'd need a varaction2 for each capacity
19:41:39 <andythenorth> oh :P
19:41:43 <andythenorth> CPP templates ftw
19:41:43 <andythenorth> ?
19:41:45 <__ln__> z-MaTRiX:
19:41:58 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: dunno, i use a python script for that :p
19:42:03 <andythenorth> hmm
19:42:07 <andythenorth> it sounds interesting
19:42:14 <andythenorth> the current solution entirely works
19:42:21 <andythenorth> but that's not the point :P
19:42:40 <Belugas> TrueBrain: youwant boobs, let me introduce you to the OTHER You something wb site ;)
19:42:54 <Belugas> web
19:43:09 <peter1138> heh
19:43:26 <peter1138> i watched a bit of it. it's just cringey jokes
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19:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the problem with CPP is that it cannot do the *16 calculation, so you'd have to do that by hand
19:45:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i doubt that grfcodec or nforenum would optimize that away
19:45:41 <andythenorth> I could sort that out with defines
19:45:46 <andythenorth> or so
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19:46:19 <Eddi|zuHause> #define CAPACITY 15
19:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> #define CAPACITY16 250
19:47:34 <Belugas> that's what I fugured out listening to THEM
19:47:43 <Belugas> crazy colleagues...
19:48:15 <Belugas> last show like that i watch was "3's a crowd"
19:48:21 <Belugas> way way way ywa back then
19:50:15 <TrueBrain> damn, you are old
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19:52:39 <Eddi|zuHause> what's wrong with TBBT?
19:52:53 <TrueBrain> *drewl* Penny ...
19:53:08 <Eddi|zuHause> bernadette is crazy :p
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19:58:36 <peter1138> it's not funny
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20:20:07 <andythenorth> biab
20:20:08 *** andythenorth has quit IRC
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20:43:28 <Belugas> [15:50] <TrueBrain> damn, you are old <-- DUH!!!
20:43:55 <Belugas> i'm also going home
20:44:06 <Belugas> MAMA i'M COMING HOME
20:44:20 <Eddi|zuHause> good night then :)
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21:11:21 <Celestar> ffs.
21:11:31 <Celestar> latest ubuntu upgrade fscks up the network manager.
21:13:47 <MNIM> OS upgrade, or package upgrade?
21:15:06 *** Celestar_ has joined #openttd
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21:15:24 <Celestar_> hm.
21:15:28 <Celestar_> works better.
21:15:42 *** Celestar is now known as Guest15727
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21:15:47 *** celestar is now known as Celestar
21:15:49 <Celestar> works now :P
21:15:59 <Celestar> removing all stored networks seemed to have helped
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21:21:43 <Celestar> hm.. difficult to get the power consumption below 12W
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21:24:04 <Celestar> hm.
21:24:06 <Celestar> brb :P
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21:26:19 <Terkhen> good night
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21:40:11 * andythenorth begins the work to fix HEQS lighting
21:41:21 <andythenorth> hmm
21:41:33 <andythenorth> why did I start out painting pixels correctly?
21:41:41 <andythenorth> the first sprites I drew are lit correctly
21:42:33 <Eddi|zuHause> something looks odd with the lighting in CETS, but i can't put my finger on it
21:43:27 <andythenorth> it's weird
21:43:50 <andythenorth> I changed style not on any evidence, but because Purno's tutorial said I was wrong
21:44:22 <andythenorth> why do we accept authority instead of evidence?
21:46:46 <peter1138> hmm?
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21:49:16 <andythenorth> first I drew correctly. Then I read the tutorial and started drawing incorrectly. Then I looked at TTD pixels, and had to fix a lot of stuff :P
21:49:23 <peter1138> hmm
21:49:32 <peter1138> so a dodgy tutorial
21:49:54 <peter1138> hmm
21:50:01 <peter1138> why is it not possible to change music set in-game?
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21:52:37 <andythenorth> because you haven't coded that yet?
21:52:39 <andythenorth> :P
21:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know is there's an english expression for that, but: "Warum ist die Banane krumm?" - "Weil niemand durch den Urwald zog, und die Banane grade bog!"
21:53:22 <peter1138> meh
21:53:30 <peter1138> i don't have the music on anyway
21:53:45 <peter1138> i have uncool real music playing instead ;p
21:54:18 <peter1138> gah, TerraGenesis sucks for non-temperate
21:54:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what do english people say when someone (a child usually) asks a dumb question?
21:54:28 <peter1138> derp!
21:55:58 <peter1138> hmm
21:56:12 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: something in the style of above's phrase? (roughly: "why is the banana bent? - because nobody went to the jungle to unbend it!"
21:56:13 <peter1138> i don't think i've properly played ottd since switching from CRT to LCD
21:56:36 <peter1138> i used to play fullscreen at 800x600
21:56:47 <peter1138> which doesn't work on LCDs, heh
21:56:51 <peter1138> well it does, but not nicely
21:57:11 <andythenorth> peter1138: we once explored why TerraGenesis sucks so much
21:57:23 <andythenorth> you found it's not even doing what it claims to iirc
21:57:38 <peter1138> did i?
21:57:39 <peter1138> hmm
21:57:45 <Eddi|zuHause> TGP has a number of shortcomings
21:57:51 <andythenorth> there are lies in it somewhere
21:58:07 <andythenorth> I probably even have the transcript.....somewhere :P
21:58:13 <andythenorth> most things are somewhere
21:58:14 <peter1138> i know i started a rewrite
21:58:16 <peter1138> but stopped
21:58:20 <peter1138> cos... just cos
21:58:34 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: probably around the time when you patched in the height curves
21:58:44 <peter1138> yeah
21:58:51 <andythenorth> I made a hack that puts in craters that look like donuts
21:59:06 <andythenorth> I also made a thing that put steps into mountains, for the purposes of building railroad tracks along
21:59:15 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, there's a weird rounding issue
21:59:26 <andythenorth> I have no idea how I did either of those, I just changed numbers until fun happened
21:59:27 <Eddi|zuHause> that prevents the highest level from being generated
21:59:39 <Eddi|zuHause> so mountains get more flat than they need to be
21:59:48 <andythenorth> is that why it always comes out with stupid flat plateaus in arctic?
21:59:54 <andythenorth> they're so dumb
22:00:16 <Eddi|zuHause> we need a "tectonics" map generator
22:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> perlin maps are too "regular"
22:00:37 <peter1138> hmm, i implemented a fault-line generator
22:00:42 <peter1138> i remember that
22:00:49 <peter1138> i wonder where all that went...
22:00:51 <andythenorth> then you got distracted trying to fly missiles over a minecraft map
22:00:59 <andythenorth> or something
22:01:00 <peter1138> hah
22:01:03 <peter1138> yes
22:01:17 <peter1138> and A* in 3D
22:02:33 <Yexo> michi_cc: I just cloned newmap.git and tried to run it. It asserts as soon as I try to build a tunnel
22:02:41 <Yexo>
22:03:16 <peter1138> hmm, odd, none of my patches mention "perlin" or "noise" :S
22:03:51 <andythenorth> the map doesn't need to be realistic, it needs to add 'interesting features'
22:04:13 <andythenorth> and have fewer options, all of which are like twiddling knobs and levers on a black box
22:04:19 <michi_cc> Yexo: That repo is missing a few fixes from my local repo, maybe it's is already solved. I'll check when I return to it.
22:04:22 <peter1138> yeah
22:04:41 <andythenorth> now we have rivers also ...
22:05:08 <andythenorth> can't we just run an erosion simulator?
22:05:55 <andythenorth> assign rock hardness 1-8 in bands of the map, drop river sources, run for 1024 cycles, see what happened
22:06:08 <andythenorth> start the whole thing at height 16
22:06:22 <peter1138> sounds cool. code it?
22:06:26 <andythenorth> he :)
22:06:38 <andythenorth> there's no newgrf API for it :P
22:06:41 <peter1138> hmm, persistent storage array for vehicles. got a patch for that...
22:06:42 <Eddi|zuHause> that'll result in "plateau and canyon" maps
22:07:03 <andythenorth> vehicles should not persistently store
22:07:04 <andythenorth> :P
22:07:10 <andythenorth> it's a car crash waiting to happen
22:07:16 <andythenorth> they should carry other vehicles though
22:07:22 <andythenorth> notably ferries should do this
22:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: i think it's a bad idea, expecially when mixing newgrfs
22:08:28 <andythenorth> vehicles-in-vehicles
22:09:04 <supermop> i just got a mac book air at work
22:09:04 <peter1138> lol
22:09:12 <peter1138> and a patch to make windows be windows in gtk
22:09:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think we'll need that :p
22:10:22 <peter1138> must've been really bored one day for that one :)
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22:11:09 <peter1138> hmm
22:11:11 <andythenorth> uh oh
22:11:16 <peter1138> found a source tree with perlin stuff in it
22:11:22 * andythenorth just solved pipelines, actually properly
22:11:39 <andythenorth> it only works for AIs, or really dedicated players
22:11:47 <peter1138> the big float array for storing the heightmap didn't help
22:11:49 <supermop> hows that then?
22:11:53 <andythenorth> pipelines?
22:12:14 <andythenorth> road vehicle, 1l capacity, run cost £small, purchase cost £0
22:12:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you mean like rondje? buy-trave-sell?
22:12:29 <andythenorth> AI builds a vehicle for each 1l waiting at station, travels, sells
22:12:35 <andythenorth> yes
22:12:46 <andythenorth> this is a good idea
22:12:52 <andythenorth> if I say so myself
22:12:57 <peter1138> ah, my code for rivers...
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22:13:14 <andythenorth> rivers...
22:13:20 <andythenorth> did I mention rivers recently?
22:13:33 <peter1138> rivers are cool
22:13:52 <andythenorth> cooler in winter than summer I reckon
22:13:57 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: you mean when i requested halftile rivers?
22:14:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I am *not* drawing those
22:14:13 <andythenorth> except I might
22:14:16 <peter1138> no
22:14:17 <andythenorth> because it would look better
22:14:23 <peter1138> my code for river generation
22:14:26 <peter1138> which didn't work
22:14:31 <supermop> non-90 degree rivers would be sweet
22:14:41 <andythenorth> rivers that were useful would be better
22:14:56 <peter1138> they are
22:14:57 <andythenorth> it's fine if you want to play 'mississipi' and have 512 flat tiles
22:14:58 <peter1138> shut up
22:15:09 <Rubidium> what? Are they too bendy?
22:15:17 <andythenorth> rivers are fine
22:15:22 <andythenorth> 3 tile locks are what sucks
22:15:28 <andythenorth> locks should be 2 tiles
22:15:32 * andythenorth is broken record
22:16:13 <andythenorth> flat docks ftw
22:16:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes... who wanted to implement those?
22:16:48 <andythenorth> $someone iirc
22:17:04 * andythenorth is busy redrawing 50% of HEQS :P
22:17:10 <peter1138> is it me
22:17:28 <Eddi|zuHause> this lazy bastard!
22:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> this someone guy never delivers anything
22:17:54 <Eddi|zuHause> why do we let him develop anything anymore?
22:18:04 <peter1138> or is the palette animation plane not moved (or otherwise updated properly) when you scroll?
22:18:08 <peter1138> (in 32bpp-anim)
22:18:14 <andythenorth> revoke his commit rights
22:19:46 <peter1138> hmm, apparnetly it's moved, so... hmm
22:20:47 <peter1138> i just get glitches in the sea when i scroll
22:25:22 * andythenorth -> bed
22:25:43 <peter1138> hmm, vast oceans
22:26:10 <andythenorth> sounds awesome
22:26:14 <andythenorth> put some boats on them
22:26:44 <peter1138> hmm, i just realised my conceptual problem...
22:27:05 <peter1138> okay, i've decided, we need 2 heightmaps
22:27:21 <peter1138> they're multiplied together
22:27:35 <peter1138> bingo: landscape variety
22:27:51 <peter1138> i should rewrite this code though, heh
22:28:07 <Eddi|zuHause> how does that add variety?
22:28:58 <Eddi|zuHause> multiplying two perlin heightmaps sounds like resulting in just another perlin heightmap
22:28:59 <peter1138> with the right parameters, you get areas of ocean, areas of flat and areas of mountains
22:29:34 <peter1138> when making a perlin map, noise is added to the noise that's already there
22:30:08 <peter1138> the key is to use multiply the maps rather than adding them
22:30:16 <peter1138> -use
22:31:11 <andythenorth> are perlin values in the range 0-1
22:31:12 <andythenorth> ?
22:31:14 <peter1138> no
22:31:22 <andythenorth> 0-?
22:31:33 <peter1138> they have to be normalized
22:33:17 <andythenorth> hmm
22:33:28 * andythenorth tries to recall the hacks that made canyons
22:33:33 <andythenorth> canyons are good
22:33:49 <andythenorth>
22:34:11 <peter1138> well yeah
22:34:41 <peter1138> erosion and tectonics
22:35:01 <andythenorth> or multiply 2 perlins...
22:35:29 <peter1138> not as convincing
22:35:50 <andythenorth>
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22:37:03 <peter1138> erosion on a heightmap
22:37:36 <andythenorth>
22:37:41 <z-MaTRiX> someone bored? :)
22:38:02 <z-MaTRiX>
22:38:43 <z-MaTRiX> i say every negative integer has factorial of 0
22:39:26 <andythenorth>
22:39:46 * andythenorth stops posting random canyon pictures
22:40:04 <z-MaTRiX> andythenorth<< mirror them <;
22:40:18 <Yexo> z-MaTRiX: did you actually read that wiki page? It has a paragraph titled "Non-extendability to negative integers"
22:40:22 <z-MaTRiX> yes
22:40:24 <z-MaTRiX> :)
22:40:51 <z-MaTRiX> and you can visualize it on the graph they posted
22:41:03 <z-MaTRiX>
22:42:07 <andythenorth> good night
22:42:09 <z-MaTRiX> well its kindof interesting though because +-infinity is connected with that vertical line i just described...
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22:42:35 <z-MaTRiX> but its still zero at -integers
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22:49:11 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23084 /trunk/src/ (8 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: get rid of a redundant variable
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23:06:32 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23085 /trunk/src/table/settings.ini: -Fix (r23084): SLE_UINT8 might have been the old type, it's not the same as the length of the variable
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