IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-11-01
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00:19:40 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23073 /trunk/.hgignore: -Update: Add another generated file to .hgignore.
00:21:10 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23074 /trunk/src/ (13 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add Vehicle::GetEngine() to simplify code.
00:23:18 <Elukka> there's 7 billion people now
00:23:37 <Elukka> 12 years back there were 6, 12 (a bit less or a bit more depending on how things go) years from now there'll be 8 billion
00:23:43 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23075 /trunk/src/ (17 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: Add GetGRF() and GetGRFID() methods to Engine and Vehicle to simplify code.
00:24:25 <planetmaker> late-night-grf-code-spree
00:26:23 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23076 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Separate code for NewGRF and default refit masks more strictly.
00:29:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23077 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Change: [NewGRF] Enforce that the default cargo type of a vehicle is one of the refittable cargos in case of refittable engines.
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09:55:50 <Eddi|zuHause> @calc 1024**2/64/60/60
09:55:50 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 4.55111111111
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10:02:54 <Terkhen> meh, they killed google reader
10:06:35 <Borgso> Didnt they merge it into Google+?
10:07:12 <Terkhen> well, only the "share" part
10:07:16 <Terkhen> which is why I used it
10:15:34 <planetmaker> but google+ is no option as long as they claim to enforce a real name policy
10:18:21 <Rubidium> how can they even enforce such a policy?
10:18:24 <Terkhen> also, spamming google reader with a lot of stupid things from internet is different than spamming google+
10:18:30 <Terkhen> and IIRC they stopped doing that, but I'm not sure
10:18:38 <Rubidium> how can they disprove that you are normally called planetmaker by your friends?
10:18:51 <planetmaker> Rubidium, enforce or whatever. They seemed to have canceled accounts on the suspicion of non-real names
10:19:04 <planetmaker> Well. In a certain part of the world I am.
10:19:49 <Rubidium> just transcribe it in Katakana and see whether they make an issue of it ;)
10:20:26 <planetmaker> Terkhen, but my understanding is that with google+ you could add those people interested in that to the 'spam me with article info 'circle'
10:20:38 <planetmaker> hehe, Rubidium :-)
10:20:50 <planetmaker> I guess I'll rather become Arno Nonymus ;-)
10:21:02 <planetmaker> easier to type for me :-P
10:21:44 <Terkhen> planetmaker: I have not checked google+ much, but to me it seems that the internet stupidities would appear in the main page for those people, mixed with all the other stuff
10:22:58 <planetmaker> I don't quite no. As I'm not on google+ I didn't check it out in detail either.
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11:25:07 <Starhero> What is the major thing that lags OTTD?
11:25:23 <Starhero> Seems i start a map..and eventually i get lag...
11:25:30 <Starhero> I load the save later..no lag for a bit
11:25:59 <b_jonas> I haven't seen any lag in ottd so far
11:26:02 <Starhero> That is what I thought...but i shot them down with the console and I still get lag.
11:26:12 <b_jonas> (but then I'm using a nice fast computer hardware)
11:26:21 <Yexo> do you get constant lag or every now and then?
11:26:32 <Yexo> how big is the map, and how many vehicles are there in total?
11:26:47 <Starhero> I dont think gfx card matter haha but i have a 46se
11:26:58 <Yexo> the "quadcore" bit of that is irrelevant, for major calculations openttd only uses a single core
11:27:01 <b_jonas> Starhero: also enough ram, and no other tasks that use the cpu and ram heavily?
11:27:14 <Starhero> 4 gigs of ram ..kinda lacking on that front
11:27:19 <Yexo> b_jonas: ram is kind-of irrelevant, seeing how little ram openttd acutally uses
11:27:57 <Starhero> also i know to close tasks..I even set ottd to high priority
11:28:06 <Yexo> Starhero: how many vehicles are there on the map?
11:28:06 <planetmaker> my FF uses about 10x as much as openttd does
11:28:32 <planetmaker> and what's the map size?
11:28:48 <planetmaker> uh... as big as one can get.
11:29:02 <planetmaker> Then only a few hundret vehicles might give you a lag
11:29:20 <planetmaker> especially if you use ships without many buoys
11:29:31 <Starhero> ahh so it is pathfinding
11:29:43 <b_jonas> the classic ttd map is 256x256, right?
11:29:50 <planetmaker> not only. But it's one part. Yes, it is
11:30:01 <planetmaker> and it has very cheap, very bad path finder
11:30:58 <b_jonas> from my experience, it's not only the vehicles but also the zoomed out graphics that can cause ttd/ttdpatch to lag
11:31:12 <b_jonas> also it lags at startup
11:31:19 <Starhero> oh i stay zoomed in as much as possible
11:31:55 <Starhero> but if the map and veh. is the lag...then there goes my goal of trasnporting everything on this map :'(
11:33:39 <Starhero> I figured it might have been NARS"s "Use fine scale graphics" option so ...to test..I did something crazy...ready? I CHANGED parameters WHILE THE GAME WAS RUNNING! OH NOES!...i backed up my save and READ THE BIG RED BOX FIRST.
11:34:07 <Starhero> ofc had to edit cfg for tha
11:34:52 <Starhero> is there a way of seeing FPS or compute fps?
11:36:51 <planetmaker> no. But there'll not be more fps than 1/0.03
11:38:28 <Starhero> Yeah just wanted a way of gauging my lag..and what options could change it..
11:38:44 <Starhero> anything but lowering my map size :'(
11:39:02 <b_jonas> Starhero: using fewer vehicles
11:39:23 <Starhero> i don't use boats or planes at all
11:39:33 <Starhero> nor is anyone else it seems.
11:39:33 <b_jonas> planes aren't a problem
11:39:47 <b_jonas> they don't really need a pathfinder because there aren't areas they can't fly over
11:39:58 <Starhero> AI or players..(this WAS multi player but everyone left so i went offline for a bit.
11:41:34 <planetmaker> less vehicles. Esp. less ships. Less junctions for trains. No industry or vehicle NewGRFs. Switching off "full details" and "full animation"
11:41:46 <planetmaker> reducing the window size you use
11:59:49 <TrueBrain> NOTICE: openttd.org now has a valid certificate; you no longer should be getting nagscreens from CACert when connecting over a secured layer to any of our services ;)
12:00:29 <Rubidium> I already never got those nagscreens
12:00:59 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you would be one of the few. CACert should be in nobodies valid CA root, as they explicitly tell that they don't want to be there :)
12:01:05 <TrueBrain> so your distro/browser is in violation ;) :P
12:03:50 <Rubidium> where do they explicitly tell that? They even have a license for the root key
12:07:10 <TrueBrain> the last audit they got, they stopped midway with the remark they don't want to be a valid root CA just yet
12:08:51 <TrueBrain> any inclusion by any distroy/browser is optional, and purely on their own idea, as CACert still didn't do the required Audit
12:09:58 <TrueBrain> and CACert is doing the mozilla audit atm, which is a very very slow process
12:10:49 <TrueBrain> it has to be strongly noted here that CACert did not pass ANY audit as of far, and should NOT be a valid RootCA :) But okay .. :)
12:15:35 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23078 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): default ships carrying passengers and oil were suddenly only able to carry coal
12:23:19 <Ammler> TrueBrain: why do you use wildcard cert but still have all ssl websites stay in one home (secure)
12:24:01 <TrueBrain> and SANs are very expensive
12:25:06 <TrueBrain> Alternative Naming, the certificates we used before
12:25:21 <Ammler> (the forward to secure)
12:25:43 <TrueBrain> exactly; that is why we have a wildcard
12:25:53 <Ammler> but then why forward to secure?
12:27:09 <Ammler> ok, that's a reason too :-P
12:28:10 <TrueBrain> yeah; something we can talk long about, or short, but it just is :)
12:28:45 <Ammler> well, for me it looks more complicated than easy to setup that way
12:29:03 <TrueBrain> the mistake you make here, is that this setup is already in place
12:29:13 <TrueBrain> and if we would be to make any chance, it would take a lot of time
12:29:28 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> Ammler: because people tend to type https://www.openttd.org/ <-- that may very well be an automatic process, like "user typed http, let's try https first"
12:29:33 <TrueBrain> a general rule: if it aint broken, don't fix it :)
12:30:03 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: long live Firefox plugins ;)
12:30:29 <Ammler> the rule of lazy sysops and managers without money
12:30:56 <TrueBrain> Ammler: holds in general; and if you are going to fix it, make sure you have a test setup first
12:31:08 <TrueBrain> in modern IT, it is impossible to keep up with all the new stuff
12:31:25 <TrueBrain> if you would try, you would never maintain, but always work to improve (by your suggestion, that would be required :P)
12:31:42 <TrueBrain> as there is always something new, somethng better, something ...
12:32:29 <TrueBrain> a stable system is most often much better than a 'correct' system, by what-ever definition ;)
12:32:33 <MNIM> ubuntu doesn't have long term support releases for nothing
12:33:13 <TrueBrain> MNIM: by wording of Ammler, Ubuntu has either lazy sysops or don't have money :D
12:33:19 <TrueBrain> now I am just teasing Ammler :P
12:33:41 <MNIM> you mean companies who use ubuntu?
12:33:55 <TrueBrain> no, Ubuntu itself :P They have a long term support release :P
12:33:58 <Ammler> MNIM: long term support is the opposite of what we speak here
12:34:12 <TrueBrain> it has old software, not up-to-date FHS, ... ;)
12:34:16 <TrueBrain> which is exactly what we talk about :)
12:34:27 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: "long term" for ~5% of the relesae
12:34:36 <TrueBrain> they only include new versions if security is compromised
12:34:44 <TrueBrain> so they too work on the "if it aint broken, dont fix it" rule ;)
12:34:50 <MNIM> yeah, even it's standard, 'up to date' releases features old software, true
12:34:52 <Ammler> TrueBrain: they fix a running system
12:35:02 <TrueBrain> Ammler: that suggests our https schema is broken?
12:35:07 <TrueBrain> just not what you want it to be :)
12:35:19 <Ammler> no, never said it is broken
12:35:23 <MNIM> but really, would it hurt to have an up-to-date gimp in ubuntu?
12:35:27 <TrueBrain> fix is the inverse of broken, is it not? :D
12:35:56 <MNIM> or, *gasp* a modern firefox!?
12:36:03 <TrueBrain> Ammler: without joking, I am just pointing out that it is better to have things stable, then have things 'up to date' to what ever standard :)
12:36:03 <Ammler> how else can you fix a working system?
12:36:28 <TrueBrain> which any sane sysop does, lazy or not :)
12:36:30 <planetmaker> a working system doesn't need fixing. It needs changes or updates
12:36:40 <MNIM> truebrain: I don't even mean unstable releases.
12:36:56 <TrueBrain> MNIM: 'stable' is such a tricky word :)
12:37:29 <MNIM> but if you were giving attention to that, you might as well just run windows 2000
12:41:31 <Ammler> TrueBrain: btw. is the cert free, never found other than startssl for free
12:42:39 <z-MaTRiX> sed can filter a chatlog and note replacements have been made
12:42:44 <z-MaTRiX> sed -En 's/(.)\1{3,}/\1/g;T ex;s/.*/c:&/;:ex;s/(.{3,})\1{2,}//g;T ey;s/.*/w:&/;:ey;p' <<< 'lala!'$'\n''laaaaalaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!!!'$'\n''la la la la la!'
12:43:27 <TrueBrain> z-MaTRiX: seriously, who is your audiance with all those seds and bash scripts?
12:44:10 <z-MaTRiX> well i only use linux, and like to do things with bash, and coreutils
12:44:23 <TrueBrain> but why share it with us? :P
12:44:54 <z-MaTRiX> you like windows i guess
12:45:02 <TrueBrain> lol; bold conclusion
12:45:22 <TrueBrain> so if you don't appreciate your endless seds and bash scripts, you have to like Windows ...
12:45:23 <planetmaker> I mostly guess that TB likes a high SNR
12:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> "for some people it's a regexp, for others it's the longest smilie of the world"
12:46:21 <TrueBrain> anyway, z-MaTRiX, what I meant to say: can you please stop with useless seds and bash scripts unelss they are somewhat related? :)
12:46:46 <z-MaTRiX> well it can be used to parse redundant data from a chatlog for example
12:47:06 <TrueBrain> can anyone in this channel raise his hand if he things that is useful, or trusts the above sed in any way? :)
12:47:39 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: oops :D
12:48:10 <Ammler> TrueBrain: good example for your speach "better stable as up-to-date" was noai.o.o :-P
12:48:11 <TrueBrain> and nice pun planetmaker :D
12:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> i found that last sed useful :p
12:48:51 <planetmaker> hehe :-) But I'll keep my hands down, failing to see context
12:49:05 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yeah, I hope z-MaTRiX got the hint ;) :P
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13:22:02 <Starhero> is the absolute latest ottd precompiled? Or would i have to fight with a C++ compiler..and header files..and *screams in agony and asks why ppl use C++ when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power*
13:24:29 <Rubidium> Starhero: there is no "latest"
13:25:15 <Rubidium> there are at least 4, of which 3 are precompiled but you can reach only 2 precompiled versions
13:26:26 <Yexo> stable, nightly, head and?
13:28:23 <Rubidium> (although you might add testing as well)
13:28:40 <Rubidium> which would make it 5
13:28:42 <Yexo> I did think about testing, but we currenctly don't have that
13:30:40 <planetmaker> " when C# ...or HELL JAVA...can make more sense and have the same power*" <-- I'm sure this statement can be backed-up by facts ;-)
13:31:03 <planetmaker> especially in the context of cross-platform portability ;-)
13:32:57 <Rubidium> not to mention that porting 300.000 lines of code is not something I fancy doing
13:33:18 <Rubidium> especially when it means you can't copy the majority of the code directly
13:33:30 <planetmaker> Well, the forum just has a new guy who wants to write all this stuff from scratch. So volunteers are abundant ;-)
13:33:47 <Yexo> the forum has such a guy every few months
13:34:00 <planetmaker> yup. That's why volunteers are abundant ;-)
13:34:41 <planetmaker> results... that's something different... did they volunteer to produce results?
13:36:34 <TrueBrain> (did that make me look really cool and knowing?)
13:38:02 <TrueBrain> Starhero: and I guess it depends on your definition of the word 'sense' .. to me C# makes no sense at all .. :D
13:38:36 <Eddi|zuHause> we should have a 3Dxml!
13:38:50 <Yexo> TrueBrain: you forgot so say it will solve all problems with openttd
13:39:26 <planetmaker> only those problems? :-(
13:39:59 <planetmaker> I thought it'd bring world peace. Finally
13:41:46 <b_jonas> also, real time! oriented! paradigm!
13:43:17 <TrueBrain> if you can't fix it
13:43:36 <TrueBrain> and if you can't win: cheat!
13:43:39 <TrueBrain> now off for a meeting
13:44:41 <planetmaker> best card in that game is "Your Parents Never Met" ;-)
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14:13:23 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh, i should really start learning for my next exam
14:15:34 <Rubidium> can't you just pass it without learning?
14:15:50 <Rubidium> or didn't you take enough colleges?
14:24:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i did... 5 years ago...
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16:18:31 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23079 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r23077): Retain original behaviour in a silly corner case, which saves us making the specs even more convoluted.
16:20:01 <Starhero> okay...so i just saw a youtube vid where a guy had a mod called..cargodist...but I dont see that in the content..How many other mods are there that are not in bananas?
16:20:40 <frosch123> there are different types of "mods"
16:21:17 <frosch123> bananas holds only NewGRFs which are easy to install, and usable with stable versions
16:21:39 <frosch123> other "mods" are not compatible to stable openttd versions, and require advanced user skills
16:23:19 <planetmaker> or even programming skills :-)
16:23:20 <Starhero> Advanced as in gameplay or installing? As long as nothing is actually a COMPILE..I can move files around edit crap in files..I just HATE HATE HATE compiling C++ crap...I am a C# dev. and normally when you get source for C# you can click compile and have a few easy to fix problems or non at all..I have NEVER compiled something that I haven
16:23:39 <Starhero> made with C++ that has worked right
16:23:57 <planetmaker> you said so before. It won't change a thing, though
16:24:06 <planetmaker> (and it's your loss)
16:24:07 <frosch123> patches involve compiling, unless there are precompiled binaries
16:24:13 <frosch123> which are only available in rare cases
16:24:45 <Starhero> Ugh..is there a guide on setting up an eviroment?
16:24:53 <Starhero> I would like to try some..
16:24:54 * planetmaker wonders though what's difficult about installing a few libs and typing ./configure && make
16:25:05 <Terkhen> Starhero: compiling C# with MSVC is identical to compiling C++ with MSVC
16:25:31 <Starhero> but 99% of the time i can't wrap my head around w/e settings I need to get crap to compile that OBVIOUSLY compiles on others computers...
16:25:36 <Terkhen> so I don't understand the hate against C++ :P
16:26:17 <planetmaker> Starhero, if it works for others and not for you I'd take my bet where the problem is ;-)
16:26:27 <Terkhen> you will run into the same problems with C# as soon as you want to use some code that is not included in the default library
16:26:30 <Starhero> Besides the actual syntex? Dot operator (and slight cross platform) FTW
16:26:57 <Terkhen> cross platform? did I miss something?
16:27:29 <Starhero> mono? I mean you still can make some things on linux/unix
16:27:37 <Starhero> sure gui isn't that great...
16:27:42 <planetmaker> and android? iOS? FreeBSD?
16:27:51 <Terkhen> to my knowledge, mono has a windows version too
16:28:00 <Starhero> Didn't I say slight?
16:28:09 <Terkhen> that makes me suspicious of the feasability of porting stuff from "true" C# to mono
16:28:24 <Terkhen> anyways, your issues are not language related, they are related to how projects with lots of dependencies are built
16:28:44 <Starhero> Honestly..I am not as knowledgable as I wish to be in pretty much anything...
16:28:59 <Terkhen> OpenTTD has a openttd_useful package that makes things simpler, just follow the tutorial on the wiki
16:29:08 <Starhero> that is the only ...decent thing I have made
16:29:16 <Terkhen> or, if you can't be bothered to compile, download the binaries
16:29:22 <Terkhen> both cargodist and yacd have them available IIRC
16:29:32 <Terkhen> you just need to browse the forums and find them
16:29:38 <planetmaker> yup. Both outdated ;-)
16:29:53 <Terkhen> well, unless you are willing to code updated version you can't solve that with compiling either
16:30:27 <planetmaker> but as said... outdated by several weeks at least. Rather months
16:31:11 <planetmaker> "stable" OpenTTD is similarily "outdated"
16:31:26 <Starhero> that is what i have been using ofc
16:31:29 <planetmaker> with more bug fixes, though
16:31:32 <planetmaker> thus not that old :-)
16:32:10 <Starhero> what is really changed with the lastest non stable?
16:32:13 <planetmaker> thus if you don't care about the bug fixes...
16:32:14 <Terkhen> outdated as in "I can't play without the new features in trunk"
16:32:24 <planetmaker> ^ yup. Thx. Terkhen :-)
16:32:24 <Starhero> (and calling anything stable is a lie)
16:32:30 <Terkhen> Starhero: there is no comprehensive list
16:32:54 <Terkhen> just check the revision log or wait for the changelog of the future 1.2.0 version
16:33:16 <Starhero> if you don't mine...link me to the revision log?
16:34:12 <Terkhen> you are interested in the ones tagged as "Feature" and sometimes "Add"
16:36:17 <Starhero> and would my current grfs work in a compile of the latest?
16:37:58 <Terkhen> unless they are incorrect, yes
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16:50:52 <Terkhen> that code must be scary :P
16:51:49 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: frosch * r23080 /trunk/src/ (25 files in 2 dirs): -Feature: [NewGRF] Use variable 10 to enable vehicle GRFs to draw different sprites on the map and in various GUIs.
16:52:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: apparently it's not self-written code, but instead compiled
16:53:04 <Terkhen> oh, I wasn't aware you could do that with javascript
16:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> you can do that with any language
16:53:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i do that with nml! :p
16:54:04 <frosch123> or does anyone know a better one?
16:54:44 <Eddi|zuHause> shouldn't that go into VarAction2?
16:55:32 <Terkhen> I understood you wrong then, I meant that I did not know that javascript code could be compiled
16:55:44 <Terkhen> but probably you meant compiled from one language to another
16:56:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: yes, i meant compiled from another language into javascript
16:56:44 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: it is a cb specific variables. for real callbacks it is mentioned on the cb page; for station foundations it is mentioned in action 0 description where the foundations are enabled
16:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, then explain it in Action2, and in VarAction2 make a list of all possible meanings (with links to the appropriate detailed description)?
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17:07:17 <Starhero> CIA? Coding in action? :P
17:08:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Starhero: we mentioned allah and bombs too often, now they are openly monitoring our actions
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17:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> different topic: greece makes a great demonstration why free market and democracy are contradicting philosophies
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18:13:52 <TrueBrain> OpenDUNE is proud to inform you they just released version 0.7 :D
18:17:26 <b_jonas> hmm, is anyone still working on the prince of persia clone?
18:19:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished prince of persia 1
18:22:52 <Eddi|zuHause> prince of persia 2 was fun. we lost so much time on that bridge :)
18:23:11 <Rubidium> now we're only waiting till GRFCodec is proud to inform there is a new build of a nightly (as would ttdpatch I guess)
18:23:47 <Rubidium> that reminds me... michi_cc, grfcodec's nforenum likes some patching
18:24:44 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: but that is not under my control to influence in any way ;)
18:25:59 <Rubidium> then whom's influence is it?
18:26:20 <TrueBrain> the author of grfcodec? :P
18:26:23 <b_jonas> I love prince of persia 1. I completed it multiple times, including once in a single run without cheating.
18:26:25 <z-MaTRiX> rasterized 1M pixel radius circle in haskell
18:26:44 <b_jonas> And there are very few video games I've ever completed.
18:27:14 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: I guess a build plan was meant ;-)
18:27:30 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: he should have said so :)
18:27:33 <b_jonas> Though I also like the Commander Keen series a lot
18:27:42 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: so I can just mess with bamboo till it works?
18:27:55 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I seriously didn't catch on at all you were talking about the compile farm
18:28:16 <TrueBrain> (no joke, I seriously didn't catch that part)
18:28:32 <b_jonas> actually, Commander Keen 1--3 shares at least one thing with Prince of Persia: they both have a very strange control system that you have to get used to, otherwise you can't jump and land where you want.
18:28:44 <TrueBrain> and if you have a working jail for TTDp .....
18:29:02 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: for which targets do you want grfcodec, and what is its source?
18:30:01 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: windows-win9x(-ish), call it windows-win32 but built with gcc, linux-generic-i686 and linux-generic-amd64 should be enough
18:30:08 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: ubuntu? debian? :P
18:30:46 <Rubidium> there are no debian packaging files, so those can't be built
18:31:05 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you want a nightly + testing + release for grfcodec, or just a subproject under OpenTTD?
18:31:39 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: is testing regression, or RC candidates?
18:31:51 <TrueBrain> non-uploading comiples
18:31:57 <Rubidium> in any case, nightly + release would be enough as there are no regression tests (yet)
18:32:08 <TrueBrain> well, not regression as regression-test
18:32:13 <TrueBrain> but just a compile, to see if it all works
18:32:17 <TrueBrain> like ... Testing atm
18:32:26 <TrueBrain> (I was naming the current subprojects of OpenTTD ;)
18:32:26 <Rubidium> oh, that would be nice
18:33:00 <Rubidium> nightly -> binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec-nightly, releases -> binaries.openttd.org/extra/grfcodec
18:33:14 <frosch123> [19:19] <Eddi|zuHause> i never finished prince of persia 1 <- with the cheat i succeeded
18:33:25 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no mac version?
18:33:51 <b_jonas> it's easy with the cheat: you just skip to the last level then just run to the arms of the princess
18:34:22 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: they seem to have never been built, so from my POV it's not needed
18:34:44 <Rubidium> though maybe someone else fancies putting in the effort to support Mac out of the box
18:37:02 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
18:37:27 <LordAro> web hosting. thoughts?
18:37:40 <Zuu> I've reed in the commit logs lately about several interesting new NewGRF features :-)
18:38:20 <Zuu> LordAro: Depends on what you want to host.
18:38:41 <TrueBrain> I wouldn't start a webhosting company; there are enough of them already
18:38:50 <Zuu> Just another random hobby project or something that requires some kind of updtime?
18:39:10 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: your correct answer should have been ovh.de. This was a test!
18:39:50 <Prof_Frink> TrueBrain: Yes, but do you know how much Rudgikins pays us to say Zernebok?
18:39:52 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: running plan ...... no clue if it will work correctly :D
18:40:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: so far compile-errors
18:40:38 <LordAro> basically, i (would like) an area that i can install my own stuff in
18:41:09 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you never compiled grfcodec with buildbot, did you? :D
18:41:27 <TrueBrain> and 'hg' in the windows machine
18:41:34 <TrueBrain> would you be able to install hg on the windows? I can install boost :)
18:41:34 <Rubidium> shall I install it on the linux machines first?
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18:41:51 <TrueBrain> the windows is also missing boost btw
18:42:00 <Rubidium> boost on windows is a PITA
18:42:10 <TrueBrain> please do; I will fail horribly :D
18:42:18 <TrueBrain> I can do Linux, I know how Linux owrks :D
18:42:23 <Rubidium> about one million header files fracking stuff up
18:42:35 <Rubidium> (stuff being Windows' performance)
18:43:10 <TrueBrain> ugh ... too many boost shit ...
18:43:14 <TrueBrain> libboost-all-dev ? :)
18:43:50 <Rubidium> that ought to be more than enough
18:43:51 <Zuu> hg is surely installable in Windows, but that was maybe not the question.
18:44:02 <Rubidium> don't know which ones are actually needed
18:44:19 <TrueBrain> me neither; so we just install all :P
18:44:44 <TrueBrain> Achievement unlocked: solving problems
18:45:33 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: hmm... guess what typing hg in mingw gives me on the CF?
18:46:19 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it gives me mercurial
18:46:31 <Rubidium> which user runs the builds on Windows?
18:46:38 *** z-MaTRiX has joined #openttd
18:46:46 <TrueBrain> otherwise a lot didn't work :)
18:47:47 <Yexo> michi_cc: go ahead and commit that
18:50:09 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: linux still fails ... but this time it seems it is missing a -lz in the Makefile?
18:50:23 <Rubidium> it doesn't need zlib
18:50:48 <Rubidium> then libpng's libpng-config has to give the -lz
18:51:39 <TrueBrain> makes you wonder, doesn't it? :D
18:52:17 <Rubidium> if I haven't made a typo the hg problem should be solved
18:52:21 <TrueBrain> as it doesn't ... :)
18:52:40 <Rubidium> hmm, building it statically?
18:52:44 <TrueBrain> on my local machine, libpng-config --ldflags shows no -lz
18:52:50 <TrueBrain> so why doesn't it work on th CF .. hmm ..
18:53:27 <Rubidium> might be that I slightly messed with the libpng and friends on the CF's generic jail
18:53:34 <Rubidium> by removing the .so version
18:53:47 <Rubidium> to force statically linking
18:53:48 <TrueBrain> why would you do that?
18:54:03 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is one way of doing that :P
18:54:33 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: would it be an issue if I reinstall them?
18:54:36 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: yes, statically linking some stuff is not trivial (or I haven't found the right way to do it)
18:54:40 *** Alberth has joined #openttd
18:54:41 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Alberth
18:54:46 <TrueBrain> static is a bitch, yup
18:55:08 <Rubidium> but libpng is a bitch to not do statically as there are currently 1.2, 1.4 and 1.5 in the wild
18:55:17 <Rubidium> all with different ABIs
18:55:33 <Rubidium> so the easiest would be to modify libpng-config to just return -lz as well ;)
18:56:19 <LordAro> i'd say something, but i have to go now :L
18:57:22 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: no target: bundles_xz
18:57:38 * Rubidium has "fun" with iexplore
18:57:41 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: hg issue solved; remaining issue is missing boosts/bimap.hpp
18:57:51 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: which bundles do you want for this?
18:57:55 <LordAro> Alberth: no, windoze time limits :(
18:58:08 <Rubidium> use the search bar thingy to search, it immediately comes up with it having blocked "www.bing.com" for security reasons
18:58:39 <LordAro> although, i did rescue my usb stick :)
18:58:56 <Alberth> good, and you made a backup too now? :)
18:59:00 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I made it bundle_gzip
18:59:10 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: perfect ;)
18:59:18 <LordAro> Alberth: well, i had a backup anyway, but was a bit old
18:59:38 <LordAro> i will make sure i have a master on a proper hard drive from now on, however :)
19:01:35 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: in ~23 minutes (Windows progress bar time) it will have "installed" boost (I hope
19:01:45 <TrueBrain> and you are killing I/O access :P
19:02:22 <TrueBrain> (to the Windows VM, it is contained :P)
19:02:32 <TrueBrain> and of course the nightly started up ....
19:02:44 <Rubidium> never close the explorer window that had the .zip opened
19:02:53 <Rubidium> ... while it's copying files from it
19:04:38 <TrueBrain> it is Windows after all ;)
19:04:47 <TrueBrain> well, Java is not much better, Bamboo refuses to pick up the phone ....
19:04:51 <TrueBrain> gimme a webpage ffs :P
19:06:47 <TrueBrain> I have no clue why Java applications always have to be this bad
19:06:55 <TrueBrain> and why it still is the "industry standard"
19:09:57 <TrueBrain> well, after a while it concluded on its own that it was taking too long to process a job
19:10:04 <TrueBrain> not that it did anything against it, but it concluded :P
19:11:12 <TrueBrain> one of the minor issues with Bamboo ... don't do anything when an expensive (read: nightly) job launches :D
19:15:19 * Zuu wonders which Bamboo TrueBrain is thinking about. From the context it doesn't look like the Wacom Bamboo.
19:15:58 <TrueBrain> you might be right there, yes
19:16:27 <TrueBrain> it mgiht not load atm :D
19:19:13 <Zuu> Indeed it loads slow if at all.
19:19:44 <TrueBrain> there is a somewhat I/O shortage by the looks of the server stats :D
19:19:50 <TrueBrain> in general, it is serving everything very very slow :P
19:19:53 <TrueBrain> I blame Rubidium, but I am not sure :D
19:20:30 <TrueBrain> since 10 minutes we are doing 1/5th of the normal bandwidth throughput :p That can not be accidental :D
19:21:00 <Rubidium> oh, I'm already done with boost
19:21:10 <Rubidium> well, or boost extracting was already done
19:21:13 <TrueBrain> then I wonder what is starving the system :)
19:24:17 <TrueBrain> well, I still tihnk it was boost, as everything is back to normal now (excluding Bamboo :P)
19:38:00 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:41:20 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: Windows also can't find libz :D
19:41:26 <TrueBrain> can you add -lz to libpng-config there?
19:41:41 <TrueBrain> (for --ldflags of course)
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19:42:34 <plugwash> is there any documentation of how the content download system works?
19:43:06 <frosch123> what kind of documentation?
19:44:11 <TrueBrain> what other URLs can I think of full of random documentation related to the subject ...
19:44:30 <TrueBrain> found another one :D
19:44:52 <plugwash> I was wondering how it actually worked, whether it was possible to point it at a private server, whether there were any safegaurds against attackers in the network and so on
19:45:28 <TrueBrain> plugwash: that is more than one question :)
19:45:44 <TrueBrain> how it actually work .. open any of the above URLs (still highly depends on what part you want to know about ...)
19:45:57 <TrueBrain> private server: in theory, with a custom compiled library (or if you change your hosts file :P)
19:46:17 <TrueBrain> safeguards against attackers ... what is an attacker going to attack? Sending you a random file you didn't ask for?
19:46:34 <TrueBrain> attackers "in the network" .. what is an attacker "in the network"?
19:47:00 <TrueBrain> s/compiled library/compiled binary/
19:47:27 <plugwash> "what is an attacker "in the network"?" one placed so they can intercept the connection and replace what the server sends with what they want to send
19:47:39 <plugwash> that is someone with the power to act as a MITM
19:47:40 <TrueBrain> a Man in The Middle attack is that called
19:47:47 <Rubidium> it's not worth the effort to run your own private server. If you do so, then you need to distribute binaries and you could as well just distributed the binaries
19:48:00 * andythenorth remembers something
19:48:04 <TrueBrain> and a MITM is always possible, for anything ..
19:48:16 <TrueBrain> that is why you should run an AV, and trust your ISP :D
19:48:30 <plugwash> TrueBrain, yes but you can limit what they can do
19:48:36 <TrueBrain> they can send you random files
19:49:03 <TrueBrain> doesn't sound really useful :D
19:49:25 <TrueBrain> the content service does exactly that: send you files when you request them
19:49:42 <TrueBrain> so the possibilities for any attacker are rather limited to ... sending you a garbage file you didnt ask for?
19:49:49 <andythenorth> MITM is defensible against, but never preventable
19:50:07 <andythenorth> network equivalent of brain-in-a-vat problem in philosophy
19:50:15 <andythenorth> or changing-measuring-rods
19:50:22 <plugwash> sending you a different file from the one you asked for
19:50:39 <TrueBrain> either it is a valid grf file (or any other type), or it is not :)
19:50:49 <TrueBrain> about identical as you uploading a file to BaNaNaS
19:50:59 <TrueBrain> or sending you a link of a file to download :)
19:51:23 <Alberth> plugwash: given that many newgrfs hardly state what they do exactly, you have no way to verify anyway :)
19:51:26 <andythenorth> for anyone who wanted to do serious mal, it would be relatively trivial to crack bananas, and upload evil binaries, then find a way to cause you to execute them
19:51:40 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: 'evil binaries'?
19:51:45 <TrueBrain> what would they do? Make all sprites black? :P
19:51:52 <TrueBrain> any harm they can do is limited to OpenTTD itself
19:51:52 <andythenorth> binaries that do evil things
19:52:08 <andythenorth> TrueBrain: not if you can persuade the user to execute them from their file system :P
19:52:12 <andythenorth> like any other file
19:52:19 <TrueBrain> andythenorth: stupidity cannot be avoided :)
19:52:22 <Alberth> TB: make users waste hours behind the computer playing a game? :)
19:52:26 <TrueBrain> and does not require cracking/hacking ;)
19:52:35 * andythenorth considers some newgrfs malware anyway
19:52:40 <andythenorth> they infringe good taste
19:52:47 <TrueBrain> any newgrf malware that would be possible, you can distribute anyway :)
19:52:50 <plugwash> TrueBrain, depends, what is the chance of their being exploitable bugs in the GRF parser/interpreter
19:52:53 <TrueBrain> people blindly download them anyway ;)
19:53:16 <TrueBrain> I tihnk if you have a MITM, OpenTTD contentservice is the least of your worries :)
19:53:24 <TrueBrain> I am pretty sure they rather steal your banking details
19:53:31 * andythenorth has done a tram, and would like applause
19:53:34 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: could you try grfcodec building again?
19:53:36 <TrueBrain> then try to exploit some random game not even 1% of the population plays :P
19:53:40 <Yexo> plugwash: there might be, but quite a few have been fixed in the last versions of openttd
19:54:03 <TrueBrain> plugwash: so to answer your question: no, there are no (explicit) safeguards against MITM, as it is not a valid concern
19:54:06 <Yexo> and the only correct way to prevetn that is fixing the grf code in openttd, not by preventing a MITM
19:54:16 <Yexo> since anyone can upload any grf to bananas, so you don't need a MITM attack for that
19:54:36 <TrueBrain> it is like protecting your door with heavy bolds, while having no walls :P
19:54:40 <Rubidium> what's the point in preventing a MITM attack when someone can just upload a compromising file to bananas?
19:54:51 <TrueBrain> I am very happy we all said the same thing 4 times now :P
19:55:42 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: fun fact, make bundle_zip rebuilds the .exe files ...
19:55:55 *** andythenorth is now known as MITM
19:56:06 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: all bundles do, for some (stupid?) reason
19:56:15 <TrueBrain> worth looking into?
19:56:31 <MITM> someone has been stealing my nick
19:56:45 *** MITM is now known as andythenorth
19:56:48 <Rubidium> it's forced specifically by the makefile for some reason I don't fancy figuring out
19:56:49 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: r838 compiled and available on master
19:57:10 <TrueBrain> also distributed over mirrors now
19:57:17 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i wanted to mention to rather use CB15 for capacity instead of CB36
19:57:27 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now you tell me :P
19:57:31 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that ships around the whole mail/goods mess
19:57:37 <TrueBrain> plugwash: why do you have this worry?
19:57:42 <andythenorth> I rather hoped that would be the case
19:57:55 <andythenorth> I looked at cb15 on Sunday, there's some reason I didn't implement it
19:58:08 <andythenorth> __ln__: I saw that earlier, pretty awesome
19:58:12 <andythenorth> the game should feature it :)
19:58:41 <plugwash> It actually started with me musing about the possibility of running private content download servers
19:58:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: which reason is that?
19:58:56 <plugwash> and that got me musing about how the system worked more generally
19:59:02 <TrueBrain> plugwash: what would be the benefit of using your own content server?
19:59:27 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: it seems to be okay at first sight
19:59:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: CB36 is practiaclly useless with "first refittable" setting
19:59:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i still think the game should actually fix that
19:59:59 <Yexo> Persistent storage accessed by GRFID. Size: 00 - FF (16) for each GRFID <- so how big is it? 256 or 16?
19:59:59 <Alberth> plugwash: just drop all stuff in a directory where openttd can find it, and you don't need a private server
20:00:02 <Eddi|zuHause> an the specs should be clarified
20:00:13 <TrueBrain> plugwash: the whole idea of the content service is to globalize the distribution of grfs (among others), as the old way (manually downloading one by one) was annoying and not reaching a full audiance. So one can wonder why that use would be to start aprivate one? (seriously wondering why you would want it btw :))
20:00:13 <plugwash> Avoiding cluttering up the content download system with GRFs that are not intended for general use but that you do want to distribute to multiple clients
20:00:29 <TrueBrain> plugwash: isn't copy/paste easier?
20:01:03 <TrueBrain> but so yeah ... download the source, change the location it uses to find the content server, launch your own (all in the subversion), and profit :D
20:01:03 <Rubidium> plugwash: you are aware that a custom content server requires custom binaries to contact that server?
20:01:54 <plugwash> so the code for the content server is in the openttd svn tree?
20:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i looked at the relevant code once
20:02:10 <TrueBrain> all our code is released under GPL and can be found in the SVN
20:02:10 <Eddi|zuHause> but i got scared and threw it in a corner
20:02:27 <TrueBrain> we hold no secret :D
20:02:53 <Eddi|zuHause> except the database password :p
20:03:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: lolz :D
20:03:18 <TrueBrain> and user passwords :P
20:03:24 <TrueBrain> and developers emails
20:03:27 <frosch123> plugwash: you can actually specify version ottd version numbers when uploading stuff to bananas
20:03:30 <TrueBrain> okay, we have secrets! :P
20:03:33 <Eddi|zuHause> and user credit card information :)
20:03:48 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: tss, you cannot proof that :P
20:03:51 <frosch123> that way you can hide the download for basically all versions, and the stuff will only be available when joining a gamer that uses them
20:03:58 <frosch123> (at least i believe so)
20:04:17 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe i should post on /b/ :)
20:04:20 <TrueBrain> frosch123: hackish, but would work :p Just he is not allowed to upload any grf that he is not the author of :D
20:04:43 <frosch123> TrueBrain: coop is doing that a lot afaik
20:04:48 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: GRFCodec:Testing is running too. Every commit it will compile. Make sure to click 'Watch' if you want to get an email :)
20:05:16 <TrueBrain> frosch123: if they do, they get spank ;) They should never upload any grf of which they cannot give out the rights to distribute :)
20:05:35 <frosch123> i mean the "upload stuff and set version to basically none"
20:05:59 <TrueBrain> frosch123: like I said, hackish, but would work :)
20:06:09 *** mahmoud has joined #openttd
20:06:12 <frosch123> e.g. those dummy-grfs which do nothing but say "you need grf pack 7.1" or so
20:06:14 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I will make you the Release target when you want to release. I don't want to test it and overwrite the current release :P
20:07:36 <frosch123> btw. did we forgot some paragraph in the tos, which says something like "this is our server, we may reject distributing whatever we like" ?
20:08:18 <frosch123> maybe bananas becomes a public place :p
20:08:29 <TrueBrain> frosch123: why would we want to reject a file for distribution?
20:08:47 <TrueBrain> anyway, nothing in the ToS says we have to do anything. It is all about the uploading granting (!) us rights
20:08:54 <TrueBrain> nowhere says we will use the rights :)
20:08:56 <TrueBrain> we just have them :P
20:10:08 <Yexo> because without any rules about that we practically have to host almost everything legal
20:11:44 <TrueBrain> you mean if someone uploads, say, a legal mp3?
20:12:04 <TrueBrain> then I don't understand what you said, sorry :)
20:12:06 <Yexo> but if someone uploads a very silly grf you can't simply remove it
20:12:14 <TrueBrain> we can; why can't we?
20:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: if you go that way, who decides the limits what can be "censored" and what not?
20:12:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the problem with cb15 is that I will have to maintain a list of every cargo where the unit isn't 1t or similar
20:13:06 <andythenorth> every cargo, past, present or future
20:13:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: we do :D
20:13:11 <Yexo> sorry for all non-dutch speaking persons in here
20:13:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes.
20:13:32 <andythenorth> cb15 uses capacity exactly as returned
20:13:50 <andythenorth> so 1 crate goods in that vehicle then weighs 1t
20:14:12 <andythenorth> the current solution is clearly much more sane
20:14:32 <andythenorth> which is to double all capacities on the assumption that (a) mail will be in the game (b) it will be first refittable cargo
20:14:44 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: then set mail directly
20:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: or better: check for presence of mail
20:15:06 <andythenorth> I already set mail
20:15:09 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you prefer the 30t down-feather hopper?
20:15:11 <andythenorth> so (b) is lies :)
20:15:24 <TrueBrain> Yexo / frosch123 : so if you really worried we 'give the idea we distribute every file' (which I understand is what Yexo wants to point out with the URL :P), add a point: 7. OpenTTD team holds the rights to not distribute a file, or something :P
20:15:38 <andythenorth> cargo refitting is an unspeakable nest of madness
20:15:40 <Rubidium> Yexo: isn't that more about banning people and removing all their content than removing content from some server?
20:15:42 <andythenorth> so let us not speak of it
20:15:47 <TrueBrain> then you only have to go through the trouble of making everyone sign the new ToS :P
20:15:51 <TrueBrain> ugh, no, lets not change the ToS :P
20:15:59 <frosch123> TrueBrain: plus "without stating any reasons"
20:16:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: we would never do that, so I am not worried about that tbh :)
20:16:22 <TrueBrain> we never delete anything without having a clear reason
20:16:24 <Yexo> TrueBrain: I'm not worried at all
20:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: just a matter of compression :p
20:16:34 <frosch123> well, i think we can rely on default law for now :)
20:16:45 <TrueBrain> frosch123: which law?
20:16:53 <frosch123> like offensive content
20:16:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: 'Dynamo' ? Does that fit my easter egg naming rules?
20:17:07 <TrueBrain> Yexo: ah; you gave another fibe, sorry :D
20:17:13 <andythenorth> if it's a football team for Dresden or Schalke, it fits :P
20:17:26 <Yexo> Rubidium: "Hoofdregel is dat een site-eigenaar zelf mag bepalen wat hij doet met zijn site (of blog of forum of wat dan ook). Maar als je bepaalde verwachtingen wekt bij bezoekers, dan kun je daaraan gehouden worden." <- I think that is more general than only about bans
20:17:29 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, it's Dresden's football team
20:17:42 <andythenorth> I'll change it now
20:17:59 <TrueBrain> Yexo: but I do see your point there
20:18:09 <TrueBrain> although I wonder if that is Dutch law, or EU law speaking :D
20:18:22 <Yexo> at least Dutch, possible also EU
20:18:51 <TrueBrain> I know Dutch law protects you against fraud in this way
20:19:03 <TrueBrain> really neat btw, but okay :)
20:19:27 <Yexo> reading back I see my first lines about it were giving the wrong signal :p
20:19:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: feel free to suggest pantograph improvements, they bore me
20:19:37 <Yexo> just thought it's interesting, I'm not worried about it at all
20:19:55 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: it's a separate layer in the psd source file
20:20:01 <TrueBrain> but yeah, reading back the ToS, it would have been good if we also said what they can expect from us :P
20:20:34 <TrueBrain> then agian, the only reason we have a ToS, is to avoid some .... people with argument against such distributed system :P
20:21:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it's a pantograph for a late 19th century tram, but not a modern one
20:21:52 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: anything else you want from the CF?
20:22:35 <frosch123> once we had catcodec, osie and strgen
20:22:46 <Yexo> TrueBrain: an easy way to compile dev repos?
20:23:00 <TrueBrain> Yexo: easy .. hmm ... we have to talk about that :D
20:23:22 <TrueBrain> you have to copy an existing project for it, and change the source. Not undoable, but more complex than I wanted :(
20:23:39 <TrueBrain> frosch123: let me know if any of them gets any commit, then I add them
20:24:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I don't want to overwrite the current files (as it would change the date, and possibly the binary), so when there is a new revision, I can add them
20:24:32 <TrueBrain> Yexo: but I can add any dev repos you like. Takes me 5 minutes or something
20:24:53 <Yexo> there is nothing now, just wanted to point it out while you're working on it
20:25:10 <TrueBrain> Yexo: yeah, and I prepared anything for it; just it is not a 1 click system I would have liked :(
20:25:16 <TrueBrain> anything = everything
20:30:57 <TrueBrain> but, I have to add, the Clone Existing Project of Bamboo is really nice; works really well and fast :)
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20:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> now... need to resolve conflicts...
20:39:50 <__ln__> you could start with syria
20:40:15 <MNIM> meh, greece needs it more.
20:40:21 <MNIM> a nuke would be a solution
20:41:00 <MNIM> maybe they won't try to blow up their own country like they usually do if you kill them all first
20:41:34 <V453000> maybe they should make a poll on blowing the country up
20:41:56 <MNIM> seriously, wtf is up with greece?
20:42:06 <V453000> greeks. simple as that :D
20:42:12 <MNIM> it used to be an outstanding culture some 2000+ years ago.
20:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the inventors of democracy want to play actual democracy?
20:43:03 <MNIM> Eddi|zuHause: usually a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks.
20:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> and the second most undemocratical institution in europe doesn't like it`
20:44:06 <MNIM> it's not the institution EU which hates it, it's everybody else who lives in europe who hates it, as everybody sees their own tax money being wasted.
20:44:22 <MNIM> at least, I do, and from what I hear around me, a lot of others do too.
20:44:42 <MNIM> usually giving the power to the people is a praise-worthy idea, but not for greeks.
20:45:16 <__ln__> they could rename themselves to Democratic Republic of Greece
20:47:54 <Rubidium> a 100% democracy isn't going to work, just look at e.g. California
20:48:07 <MNIM> greece is the only country in 'europe' that has actually had civil war since the last world war, several coups d'etat
20:48:12 <Rubidium> vote for tax cuts, vote against tax increases
20:48:32 <Rubidium> vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less
20:49:25 <MNIM> a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising
20:49:30 <Rubidium> if it were left to the people they would pay no taxes, start retirement from their birth, ...
20:49:31 <Eddi|zuHause> (not related to any topic)
20:50:00 <__ln__> Rubidium: isn't that what they are quite much doing already in greece?
20:50:03 <MNIM> hmmmmh, about unrelated, not sure if want
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20:50:27 <MNIM> that's why it's going to the sweet-fuck-all atm
20:51:22 <Eddi|zuHause> <MNIM> a military regime, brutal suppression of uprising <-- if you discount, like... whole of eastern europe, spain, ...
20:53:24 <MNIM> uhh yes, spain and portugal, true.
20:53:31 <Eddi|zuHause> <Rubidium> vote for spending more for police/education, vote against spending less <-- that's the problem of allowing to vote for each budget entry separately
20:54:01 <MNIM> either way, I still motion that greece is not really a european state
20:54:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: and the problem with not doing it means getting basically only things done that nobody likes
20:54:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: if they would have votes on: "increase police funding by x%, increase income tax by y%"
20:54:36 <MNIM> even if only for the fact that word 'europe', of greek origin, means 'land of the sundown'
20:55:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: as an un-splittable unit
20:55:09 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: just look at the bills in the American congress
20:55:28 <Rubidium> a healthcare bill that only makes it because it has tax cuts in it
20:55:45 <Rubidium> (instead of the possibly necessary tax increase)
20:55:50 <MNIM> let's leave americans out of this >.>
20:56:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: as if the tax cut/tax increase thing would work better in, like, germany :p
20:56:17 <Rubidium> why? A lot of our trouble are caused by them
20:56:51 <MNIM> they're possibly even worse than greece, the only way that nation still can pay it's army is because people keep trusting the dollar.
20:56:53 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: in Germany you don't have to opposing blocks of "far left" and "far right"
20:57:27 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: only because we have a reason to suppress our "far fight" block :)
20:58:21 <Rubidium> even then, for many of the sane laws to pass you can find a majority in parlement
20:58:29 <__ln__> will "we" have euro as the currency one year from now?
20:58:31 <MNIM> mostly caused by a country's collective shame about a past which most current residents have never been a part off :P
20:58:36 <Rubidium> instead of always having to win votes with the "extreme" opposite
20:59:20 <MNIM> __ln__: judging by how we're taking care of said euro, Im not sure there's an euro to have as currency next year
20:59:25 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: if by "we" you mean the "core states" with "solid finance", then germany, netherlands and finland will still have the euro by next year :)
20:59:29 <V453000> [21:59] <+Stablean> <insulfrog> it's a pity you can't use the mouse to pop the strey bubbles from the bubble generator :) <--- :D
20:59:52 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: yes, that "we"
21:00:18 <MNIM> eddi: not exactly, as we keep trying to fill that bottomless pit down south with our own money
21:00:31 <MNIM> which means that in the end, our wallets will be empty too.
21:01:29 <__ln__> i read an article that by 2018 europe will be in war.
21:01:52 <MNIM> economically stable and safe countries making debts because we're trying to help a country that doesn't even want said help>
21:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: afghanistan doesn't count? :)
21:02:17 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: no, i mean european countries against each other (or greece)
21:02:20 <MNIM> Afghanistan hardly counts. numbers involved on our side is minimal.
21:03:02 <Rubidium> MNIM: it's "our" own fault for being pussies
21:03:53 <Rubidium> we accepted those countries that didn't meet the requirements for joining in the first place
21:04:36 <MNIM> greece has been in the EU far longer than Ive had the right to vote!
21:04:51 <Rubidium> well, then your parents
21:05:11 <MNIM> in fact, greece has been in the EU longer than I have lived, :P
21:05:43 <MNIM> I doubt that, too, considering other country's membership in the EU has never been up for referendum.
21:05:48 <Rubidium> then you may not vote yet
21:05:57 <Rubidium> (and you're at most 12)
21:05:59 <MNIM> which it should have been, IMSHO
21:06:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it's not about EU membership, but Euro membership
21:06:37 <MNIM> neither were we asked to vote for that.
21:07:00 <Yexo> MNIM: but your government voted about it, and you voted for your government
21:07:06 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that is one of the real problems, the "democracy deficite" of the EU
21:07:44 <__ln__> one nice way to avoid giving money to greece is to be a country that doesn't use the euro. (e.g. sweden, UK)
21:07:45 <MNIM> I know, I agree with you on that
21:08:16 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: afaik the UK did help out greece already
21:08:34 <MNIM> I was agreeing with eddi, In case that wasn't clear
21:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you focus too much on what you, as a tax payer, "pay" to greece, but governments have whole other objectives.
21:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: e.g. one of the primary effects of the greece problem is a drop of the euro towards the dollar
21:10:14 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: which greatly helps export-oriented economies like germany
21:10:20 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I don't think that is their biggest concern
21:10:32 <Rubidium> their biggest concern is bank domino d-day
21:11:00 <Eddi|zuHause> that may be the second goal. helping out their own banks
21:11:23 <MNIM> Im not concerned about paying tax, Im concerned that said tax is money is just thrown onto a big pile, after which a greek anarchist shouts "Eleftheria i Thanatos!" and lights the whole pile on fire
21:11:34 <Rubidium> if Greece defaults, then all banks having Greek debt will loose that money. That will make their balance too low and they are essentially bankrupt
21:11:56 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: none of the money you "pay" effectively goes to any greek person
21:12:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it all flows directly back into the banking system
21:12:25 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and maybe some rich greek people who know how to navigate the system
21:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and that's the point where it's perfectly legit for the greek people to say "the only way to win this game is to not play at all"
21:13:21 <MNIM> what I mean, anyway, is that the issue greece is costing /a lot/ of money, and said money does nothing to fix the problem.
21:13:32 <Rubidium> another quite noticable thing is insurances banks have taken against not being paid back. With the current system of voluntary dropping half of the debt, those insurance companies don't have to pay. If Greece just goes bankrupt they have to pay, and in effect those insurance companies go bankrupt (which incidentally are banks as well)
21:13:43 <Rubidium> a nice example of this is Lehman Brothers
21:14:20 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the point where you better not have more than 10.000€ at the bank :)
21:14:48 <MNIM> ...sadly, I'm in trouble, in that case
21:14:54 <Eddi|zuHause> a nice inflation would be useful now
21:15:40 <Rubidium> all in all, it all went sour a long long time ago when the current monetary/banking systems were invented
21:15:50 <MNIM> __ln__: while that's indeed, a historian's mind running wild, a nato/un peacekeeping force for greece like SFOR in the balkan would not be unthinkable.
21:15:56 <Rubidium> the bubble will eventually burst and all we're doing now is postpone it
21:16:27 <MNIM> and to postpone it we put even more money at risk
21:16:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: we are postponing it, because nobody has a clue how to start over with a better system
21:17:27 <Rubidium> MNIM: if the monetary systems collapses money has no value, so your debt doesn't either
21:17:37 <Rubidium> after all, it isn't backed by anything solid anymore
21:19:09 <Eddi|zuHause> now's the best time to do so :)
21:19:19 <MNIM> I have ~8000E standing there
21:19:37 <Eddi|zuHause> build a house, buy a farm, start a _productive_ company
21:19:50 <Rubidium> MNIM: actually, you do....
21:19:59 <Eddi|zuHause> (i.e. nothing "we provide <internet-buzzword>")
21:20:07 <Rubidium> "Federal Reserve Notes are legal tender, with the words "this note is legal tender for all debts, public and private" printed on each note" (Federal Reserve Note = US Dollar, but the Euro works the same)
21:20:26 <MNIM> productive companies need more than 8000e to start, and I can't exactly lend anything right now
21:20:31 <Rubidium> so you "own" ~8000E of someone elses debt
21:21:05 <MNIM> true. so that means that I will own 8000e of /nothing/ if it all goes to hell
21:21:17 <__ln__> investing 8000€ in the stock market after the upcoming collapse could prove profitable.
21:21:33 <__ln__> if there's still stock market left.
21:21:59 <MNIM> not to mention that 8000e might only get you a loaf of bread by then
21:30:23 <MNIM> the article is interesting, with just a couple of issues: france isn't exactly clean on economy either, and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together.
21:30:37 <MNIM> belgian civil war, however, doesn't sound so unlikely.
21:33:15 <MNIM> which could prove quite beneficial to the netherlands, as antwerp can wave goodbye to being the prime western euro harbour
21:33:41 <MNIM> which in turn will boost rotterdam,
21:34:19 <MNIM> and as it'll all go to hell just a stone's throw south, dutch politicians suddenly all would agree on something
21:37:29 <Eddi|zuHause> "and I doubt they'd go as far as even invading a country while they will barely be able to hold their own together." <-- throughout history, that's exactly the main reason to go to war. to distract from interior problems
21:38:14 <MNIM> let's put it this way: reasonably, with what we can see now, they cannot
21:38:45 <__ln__> a war in modern-day europe would be interesting.
21:39:07 <MNIM> of course, for you it'll happen way down south and east :P
21:39:27 <MNIM> while I myself would be able to hear the guns in the south
21:39:37 <Eddi|zuHause> switzerland just recently rejected a ban on scatter-bombs, on the grounds that they need them to "defend themselves"
21:40:09 <MNIM> moot argument, of course, since there are better ways, but they are right
21:40:50 <MNIM> switzerland will be okay if the euro blows, but since they have no allies, they only have themselves
21:41:19 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: switzerland is one of the main loosers in the whole euro crisis
21:41:32 <frosch123> hmm, i guess libia is no longer interested in invading switzerland
21:41:48 <MNIM> right now, they are, due to the economical crisis
21:41:58 <MNIM> because europe is a major trading parter
21:42:25 <MNIM> but you can bet your ass that switzerland will have it a lot better than the eu when the exrements hit the fan
21:42:32 <__ln__> libyans are embracing democracy now! (did anyone seriously believe that in any point?)
21:42:36 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: what i said before of germany benefiting from a weak euro, switzerland has the exact opposite
21:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> switzerland needs a strong euro to stay competetive
21:43:53 <MNIM> true. but what I mean, if we look a couple of years further, when the whole former euro zone is toting their guns and eying their neighbours, switzerland will be relatively high, dry and safe
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21:44:58 <MNIM> switzerland has ridden out two world wars already, literally in the eye in the storm as it's surrounded by combatants
21:45:07 <MNIM> they'll ride out the third too.
21:45:07 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and a major migration target
21:45:23 <MNIM> correct. but not a major military target.
21:45:55 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: with the anti-immigrants ruling there, that'll be a major strain on interior politics
21:46:25 <MNIM> not more so a strain than in previous wars.
21:46:31 <Eddi|zuHause> some people already call the SVP the "swiss nazi party"
21:46:50 <MNIM> the netherlands have seen this too, in the first world war (tried the same in WW2, didn't go as well that time, lol)
21:47:58 <MNIM> with the guns audible as far as goeree, belgians flooded the border and were put in refugee camps
21:49:21 <MNIM> with soldiers stationed under every suitable roof and belgian refugees in camps, there was quite a strain on the souther regions
21:50:58 <MNIM> especially limburg would have not been a good place at that time, as it's wedge in right between belgium and germany.
21:53:43 <MNIM> so it's not unreasonable to compare that to switzerland in such a case.
21:54:54 <MNIM> switzerland has however the advantage of a tactically perfect terrain which is easy to defend against any invading force north, west or south, and it's way less populated.
21:55:31 <Starhero> I got ottdau...so i could easily try cargodist and yacd
21:55:50 <Starhero> I see hardly and differances in features of the game..besides those patches...
21:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: same can be said about afghanistan
21:56:14 <Starhero> meaning the stable...and this branch that was used for cargodist seem no differnt
21:56:18 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: yet in the past few decades, multiple people tried
21:56:19 <planetmaker> Starhero: there isn't
21:56:36 <Starhero> So there isn;t much changes?
21:56:37 <MNIM> eddi: and failed, and still fail
21:56:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: leaving it the least developed region outside africa
21:56:54 <planetmaker> as said before: check the changelog you were linked to before
21:57:04 <MNIM> true, but it wasn't very developed to begin with.
21:57:31 <planetmaker> it's the same game and there's only 3 months worth of development between them and current trunk or stable. At most
21:58:19 <Starhero> Hmm so i might be A-okay on playing this verson with minimum ...frustrations with changes..
21:58:25 <Starhero> I did check out the last nightly
21:58:42 <Starhero> I see that somethings changed with the vehicle list..but that is about it that i care about.
21:58:56 <Starhero> I think something with slopes and roads also
21:59:10 <MNIM> switzerland, having advanced technology, plus a coherent goverment, plus the advantage of a culture of fortifications and a tactical warfare doctrine based on their geography.
21:59:33 <MNIM> afghanistan hasn't had those advantages in the past hundred years.
21:59:38 <planetmaker> you might care about a handful of NewGRFs working in trunk but not in trunk 3 months ago
21:59:52 <planetmaker> or you might not care ;-)
22:00:17 <Starhero> This has been said before I am dam sure...but cargodist type patches should be optimized and merged. This really needs to be in the game..it gives a purpose to us millionares *large glossy eyes of inspiration*
22:00:56 <MNIM> merging two types of cargodist?
22:01:03 <MNIM> that's an insane task, at best
22:01:33 <MNIM> that's like trying to merge mac osx and ubuntu
22:01:42 <Yexo> Starhero: last I heard was that nobody had ideas for the optimization
22:01:42 <MNIM> forgive me the crude simile
22:01:43 <planetmaker> Starhero: please come forward with suggestions on how to optimize one or both of the patches
22:01:55 <planetmaker> s/suggestions/patches/
22:02:34 <planetmaker> yes, that's why they currently are on hiatus
22:03:13 <Starhero> I have a friend that might beable to help ..but not me..
22:03:53 <MNIM> I think the best idea here would be to just choose one above the other and get it into trunk.
22:04:12 <planetmaker> MNIM: and loose 50% performance?
22:04:39 <__ln__> *it's 'lose' with one o
22:04:47 <MNIM> yes, or try to merge them both into trunk, and risk them interfering with eachother and have even less left
22:05:26 <__ln__> people who have spelled 'looooose' with two tonight are, in alphabetical order: Eddi|zuHause, planetmaker, Rubidium
22:05:41 <MNIM> not to mention that merging might take much, much longer than simply taking a decision.
22:05:48 <__ln__> not that i'm paying any attention to it or anything
22:06:16 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: it's a stupid word anyway
22:06:24 <__ln__> Eddi|zuHause: agreed, it's english
22:06:38 <MNIM> afterwards you can compare 'em, see what the differences are, and from then on improve from that 50% you had
22:06:59 <MNIM> otherwise you'll be stuck with the 0% of having no cargodist at all forever
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22:10:01 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that can only be said by someone who hasn't witnessed the old PBS
22:10:32 <MNIM> I haven't. true. Ive heard that it was quite horrible?
22:11:25 <MNIM> either way, is any of the cargodist patches functional?
22:11:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: that's why the errors shall not be repeated. that means, features of that scale must be polished before being commited
22:11:48 <MNIM> true, I can't protest on that.
22:11:59 <MNIM> but did you have two versions of pbs too?
22:12:12 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: for various interpretations of "functional"
22:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: how is having one or two versions of PBS relevant?
22:13:02 <MNIM> Ill interpret that as "it works, I suppose, but I wouldn't give it to a new player to play with", then
22:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but between "have buggy PBS" and "have no PBS", the second was the path to be chosen
22:13:22 <MNIM> well, now you have two different patches for cargodist, right?
22:13:54 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: over the course of the past few years, we had like 6 different patches for cargo destinations
22:14:17 <MNIM> oh, so there's already been culled quite a bit
22:14:48 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: performance was usually one of the key problems
22:17:03 <MNIM> how does the process for including a patch into trunk go anyway?
22:17:43 <Yexo> you convince a dev to commit it
22:18:13 <Yexo> of course a lot depends on the size / impact of the patch
22:18:19 <Eddi|zuHause> 1) user writes patch, 2) dev reviews it and slaps it user in the face for not obeying code style, 3) repeat
22:19:41 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: some things never change :D
22:20:06 <MNIM> so, basically it all depends on the willpower of the patcher to get it to trunk.
22:20:38 <Yexo> it depends on the willpower of said patcher to write a patch in the first place
22:21:11 <MNIM> well, true. but after that patch exists, take for an example, a lot of patch in the forum, a lot die
22:21:25 <Yexo> if the patch is an easy fix of easy feature that doesn't need discussion, the "convincing" part is almost nonexistent
22:21:49 <Yexo> a lot of the patches in the forum have never been updated to adhere to codestyle or have been discussed and rejected
22:21:58 <TrueBrain> most patches die because they do not obey coding style, and the patcher refuses to adjust
22:22:24 <TrueBrain> many people tend to forget it is not a democracy. Coding style is mandatory :)
22:22:58 <MNIM> well, this country is a democracy, but it still doesn't allow me to kill someone. still a democracy :P
22:23:01 <Starhero> ....I am gonna recreate ottd in C# and add multithread and cargo dist in the core...Yes...Yes this will work...*stares at IDE*....screw that....*clicks x*
22:23:31 <Starhero> C++ is what stops me from actually trying to change one thing in this game.
22:23:57 <Starhero> Sad cuz i use to rave about C++ and tell ppl to hate java...
22:24:04 <MNIM> take for an example, a patch for a treeline. Ive seen it in the forums, and Im going to disregard any discussion about it since I just want to give an example. :P
22:24:13 <Starhero> Now i use it's cusion.
22:24:59 <Starhero> All I ask is tell me what you mean by that..I'll do the rest of the research..teh hell is a treeline..
22:25:45 <TrueBrain> MNIM: one way to bend what I meant to say, but you know what I mean :P
22:26:11 <MNIM> hypothetically, somebody builds a treeline patch, but doesn't do it properly so it'll never go to trunk.
22:26:55 <TrueBrain> MNIM: as what I meant of course is: even if 10000 people like a patch, if it doesn't obey coding style, it will not be committed :P
22:27:11 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: nobody expects the patch to be "proper" at once, but you have to work to improve it
22:27:14 <MNIM> yes, but will it never be recreated in proper code either?
22:27:28 <MNIM> eddi: hypothetically, original author refuses
22:27:31 <TrueBrain> MNIM: very much depends on the patch writer, and the availiablity of any developer :)
22:27:34 <Yexo> that depends on the patch author and the willingness of the devs
22:27:39 <Starhero> So...that means no ottd devs could ..ya kno...for the sake of the community...code stylize it?
22:27:52 <Yexo> course they could, but that takes time
22:28:01 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: if the author refuses, and nobody else picks it up, there's nothing we can do
22:28:03 <Yexo> time they could spend on anything else they like more
22:28:12 <MNIM> Starhero: you can't just take another's code and fix it, as that would be stealing
22:28:27 <Yexo> MNIM: in this case you could, since it's all gpl
22:28:32 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: In the end, there needs to be somebody who "just does it"
22:28:44 <Starhero> well we live in the world of instant communications...
22:29:24 <TrueBrain> Starhero: if the original author is too lazy to code style it, why would a dev bother?
22:29:27 <Yexo> going back to your treeline example: I've seen the patch in the forums. I somewhat like the idea but I'v never really been sold on it's usefulness
22:29:31 <TrueBrain> he could do it too, for the sake of the community ;)
22:29:42 <Yexo> I haven't seen any pushes for it on irc, so I kindof forgot about it
22:30:14 <MNIM> I kinda like having some tree-less spots
22:31:50 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: imho. tree growth needs some major restructuring
22:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: to prevent the entire map from being covered with trees so quickly
22:32:27 <MNIM> Ive seen a patch for that too
22:33:00 <Yexo> MNIM: beginning to see the problem? tree line height is mentioned and a major restructuring of tree growth comes up
22:33:06 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there's a setting to prevent tree growth at all, but that has the extreme opposite effect of eventually having a map without trees
22:33:30 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there must be a balance inbetween
22:33:30 <Yexo> just adding the tree line height without any thoughs about more restructuring of tree growth is a bad idea since it makes further development harder
22:33:38 <MNIM> eddi: I think I saw a setting which slowed it, could be sprinkles?
22:33:42 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: current tree growth patch misses a feedback link to reach this balance
22:33:47 <Yexo> so suddenly a seemingly simple patch becomes a lot of thinking about the direction is should go in
22:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: it's in trunk meanwhile
22:34:24 <MNIM> yeah, eddi, the growing fast is not the issue, I mean, it took a hundred years in my game to grow completely full
22:34:50 <MNIM> it needs to have a balance, however
22:34:56 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: now add in a daylength factor, and the same map is full in a few years
22:35:02 <MNIM> it needs something which 'kills' the trees
22:35:25 <MNIM> ah, trees are linked to clicks, not calender?
22:35:47 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: tree growth is done in the tile loop
22:36:06 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: usual daylength patches leave the tile loop untouched
22:36:15 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but that's actually not the issue
22:36:32 *** HerzogDeXtEr1 has joined #openttd
22:37:49 <MNIM> eh, brb, need to perform daily 'cargodist' loop ;)
22:43:26 <planetmaker> trees just die also normally.
22:43:31 <planetmaker> just more trees grow than die
22:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's the problem, the number of trees that die is not scaling properly with the number of trees that exist
22:44:56 <planetmaker> yes, I'm aware, Eddi|zuHause
22:45:19 <planetmaker> but even if that would be 1:1 tree growth would be unsatisfactorily: you'd end up with trees everywhere - just lower density
22:45:55 <MNIM> planetmaker: to counter that, tree death needs to be more likely near an open spot/recent tree death
22:46:22 <MNIM> that way you would eventually get patches of forest and open land, if balanced right
22:47:04 <planetmaker> which would mean to store lots of overhead info ;-)
22:47:07 <MNIM> at least, it does in nature
22:47:28 <planetmaker> or to introduce entities like "wood" (analoguous to town)
22:47:53 <MNIM> planetmaker: how does current tree growth happen?
22:48:06 <MNIM> tree seed more likely in neighbourhood of existing tree?
22:48:18 <MNIM> tree death would be just the opposite
22:48:22 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: there are two types of tree growth
22:48:32 <MNIM> tree death more likely in neighbourhood of empty tile
22:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: one is an existing tree spawning a "child" in a nearby tile
22:49:06 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the second is a random tree getting spawned on a random tile
22:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the relevant parts of the code might be called "TileLoop_Tree" and "OnTick_Tree". respectively
22:52:23 <planetmaker> tree_cmd.cpp might be the file to look at
22:53:10 <Eddi|zuHause> you may find the second is massively amplified in tropic climate
22:55:51 <MNIM> hmmmh, from what I gather from what you say, it sounds as if the 'tree death more likely near empty spot' should be put under tile-loop
22:56:35 <MNIM> where the case would be 'if empty tile, kill a nearby tree now and then'
22:57:25 <TrueBrain> more then than now :D
23:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and if you familiarized yourself with the code, you may introduce a gradual tree line like "beyond height X, trees may not reach the largest growth step, beyond height Y only the smallest growth step, and beyond height Z no tree may be planted"
23:00:55 <MNIM> that's what I was thinking
23:01:21 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: then you've a problem with the arctic forests, which contradict the "natural" tree line concept by requiring to be above the snow line
23:01:40 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: and then you have a problem with any newgrf forest industries
23:01:58 <MNIM> hight x should be independent of snow line
23:02:04 <planetmaker> and mind the wood cutter in tropics
23:02:14 <planetmaker> it cuts trees. and requires them to produce wood
23:02:23 <MNIM> especially in the case of a seasonally changing snowline like in opengx+terrain
23:02:25 <planetmaker> you don't want to render that useless
23:02:49 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: but the tree line is inherently tied to the snow line
23:03:00 <MNIM> not in the patch that I saw?
23:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: no, but "realistically"
23:03:37 <MNIM> depends on climate, really
23:04:44 <MNIM> snowline is more dependent on air density and density than temperature.
23:05:05 <MNIM> in general, as you go north, the snow line drops faster than the tree line.
23:05:34 <MNIM> the winter snow line drops faster than the tree line.
23:06:13 <MNIM> the summer snow line drops slower, naturally
23:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: the tree line does not "drop" in winter
23:06:35 <MNIM> true. that's why it can't be linked in ottd
23:06:59 <MNIM> as the snow line can vary per season
23:07:08 <Eddi|zuHause> trees need, among other things, a snow-free environment for several months
23:07:40 <MNIM> Id propose to make the treeline the average between summer and winter snow line.
23:07:45 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: you can get the highest seasonal snow line, and set that to be the tree line
23:08:15 <Eddi|zuHause> meaning Z in the above formula
23:09:06 <MNIM> sounds like we've got ourselves the outline for a new trees patch?
23:09:16 <MNIM> now to get someone mad enough to actually code it. :P
23:09:53 <MNIM> anyway, I think it's getting too late for coherent thought for me, so Im withdrawing
23:10:44 <Eddi|zuHause> MNIM: "we" still have no concept to actually balance tree growth against tree death
23:12:20 <MNIM> trial and error works in nature :P
23:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> trial and error only works reasonably fast if you have immediate feedback
23:38:12 <Eddi|zuHause> that's obviously not the case when it takes 100 ingame years to test
23:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> also, throwing around the phrase "this is well tested" is a sure way to make sure the patch is never going to trunk :p
23:56:04 <__ln__> i have matrix A, and it know its inverse too. now solving AX=B is trivial, but how do i use the inverse to solve CX=B, where C is almost like A, but one row multiplied by -1?
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