IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-10-30
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02:46:16 <pikka> Melbourne gets a public holiday for a horse race D:
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09:55:59 <andythenorth> Yexo: does the FIRS fertiliser plant string update need ottd tip (or recent)?
09:56:57 <Yexo> firs still works in older versions, just that string might be shown completely wrong
09:58:03 <andythenorth> yeah it fails ;)
10:00:25 <andythenorth> depending on the baby, today might be a FIRS day
10:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> oh andythenorth is back
10:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/tram.txt (at the bottom)
10:01:56 <andythenorth> interruptions permitting :)
10:02:03 <Eddi|zuHause> the (b) variant matches CETS scale, the (a) variant is slightly shortened
10:02:35 <andythenorth> I'll probably shorten
10:02:49 <andythenorth> that is quite some work with ascii ;)
10:02:56 <Alberth> and the first seduction to do something else has already shown up :)
10:03:31 <andythenorth> Alberth: the FIRS work is significantly unappealing :(
10:05:57 <Alberth> and no nice new things become possible by doing this boring work? bummer :(
10:06:29 <andythenorth> maybe we just call FIRS 'done'
10:06:52 <Eddi|zuHause> you wanted to implement new supplies mechanism
10:08:20 <Alberth> andythenorth: well, 'we' needs to make a decision, I'd say :)
10:08:28 <andythenorth> I'm kind of stuck with it
10:08:39 <andythenorth> I've lost all motivation to draw any more sprites
10:09:00 <Alberth> you want even more industries?
10:09:15 <andythenorth> but I need to finish / improve some
10:09:18 <andythenorth> and there's snow
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10:10:23 <andythenorth> I'm now reliant on other people to get the sprites into the game
10:10:43 <andythenorth> so I can only really draw and test when there are other people with time to tell me how the code works
10:10:56 <andythenorth> and I have no patience to 'draw...then wait'
10:11:17 <Alberth> right, so it is time to learn nml?
10:11:24 <andythenorth> I really can't be arsed
10:11:30 <andythenorth> it doesn't look interesting
10:11:52 <andythenorth> and it's not nml, it's advanced CPP + nml
10:12:21 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: so the tram...
10:12:36 <Alberth> I think nml should have nice macro expansion support instead of the hacky cpp
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10:13:01 <andythenorth> this tram is going to be fun
10:13:17 <andythenorth> I have to change the graphics of the rear vehicle according to refit *and* position :)
10:13:41 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: no, the rear vehicle is always vehicle 15
10:13:48 <Eddi|zuHause> so not depending on position
10:14:24 <andythenorth> oh right, we just fold the others in
10:14:30 <Eddi|zuHause> position-dependent are only the middle vehicles
10:15:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i did think that variant is way more sane :)
10:15:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what length are the vehicles in the shorter variant?
10:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> the shorter is 5lu, the longer is 6lu
10:17:41 * Celestar is beginning to dislike Ubuntu Unity
10:18:16 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the cab cars are 6lu?
10:18:43 <andythenorth> I was count - chars :P
10:19:05 <Eddi|zuHause> the length scale is right above/below the vehicles :)
10:19:46 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: imagine 1 character = 1 pixel
10:20:19 <andythenorth> oh yes - I see the length now
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10:56:19 <Mazur> I just saw a bunch of sprites I drew moving around in openttd as if they were an actual train.
10:57:42 <Mazur> Vewwy, vewwy, vewwy much so.
10:57:53 * Mazur goes and hides in his bed under the blankets.
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12:07:08 <nidhoegger> ive got a little question: im going to host a dedicated server for me and some friends on my server. is there an option that the server autosaves the game, so in case of a server crash the game can be recovered? in the wiki i find the autosave option unter [gui], so i dont know if it applies when running with -D
12:09:27 <Yexo> it's under [gui] because every client can set it for themselves
12:09:49 <nidhoegger> okay. so if i set autosave to every year, the server will create a savegame every year?
12:10:03 <Yexo> yes, under the save/autosave/ directory
12:12:10 <nidhoegger> can i use my clients openttd.cfg and modify it so i dont have to write the whole thing myself?
12:12:49 <Yexo> that's actually recommended, you can easily mistype something when creating it from scratch
12:14:40 <MNIM> god knows how people make typos
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12:36:37 * andythenorth finally understands cargo refit masks
12:36:47 <andythenorth> they suddenly look incredibly obvious :P
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12:51:14 * andythenorth wonders what cargos to exclude from express trams
12:51:28 <andythenorth> so far: all bulk; livestock; scrap metal
12:57:57 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS mail cars have: mail,expr,armo,-pass,-bulk,-liqu,BEER,MILK,-MNSP,-ENSP,-FMSP,-FISH
12:59:03 <andythenorth> it amuses me to leave these trams carrying wool
12:59:05 <Eddi|zuHause> although you might want to allow MNSP :)
12:59:14 <andythenorth> 15t of wool is clearly lighter than 15t of metal
12:59:29 <andythenorth> they can't carry lumber though
12:59:35 <andythenorth> and there's nothing I can do about that :(
13:00:00 <andythenorth> I have no slots free in the CTT for HEQS
13:00:21 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you need all those slots for?
13:00:35 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins I guess
13:00:55 <andythenorth> it's a copy and paste CTT from Zephyris that has grown organically :P
13:01:03 <andythenorth> most of it is default cargo stuff
13:01:12 <andythenorth> but unpicking it now would be much work
13:01:23 <andythenorth> the main issue is that 'lumber' is a bulk cargo, because MB insisted on that
13:01:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in CETS we currently have these "reqiured below 32" entries: WOOD, LVST, STEL, MILK, WDPR, BDMT, BEER, FISH, FMSP, ENSP, MNSP,
13:02:17 <andythenorth> frosch123: once we discusses a more sane refit system
13:02:30 <andythenorth> where refittability is negotiated
13:03:19 <Eddi|zuHause> cargos need weight, volume and area, to make sensible refit capacities
13:04:14 <Yexo> is area really relevant?
13:04:21 <andythenorth> my trams can refit to wool, but not cotton
13:04:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: yes, e.g. for piece goods
13:04:47 <andythenorth> if we had roadtypes, I could add some diesel trams
13:05:00 <andythenorth> thereby extending NG extensively :)
13:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: especially cars and machines have a don't care on volume, usually
13:05:23 <andythenorth> if we had rv-wagons, we could have mixed NG trains, and more freedom about vehicle lengths
13:05:36 <andythenorth> but in the meantime...
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13:06:08 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: true, but wouldn't for all in-game purposes a large volume do what you want?
13:07:17 <andythenorth> it looked like a great idea, if requiring rather a lot of detail when making vehicles :)
13:07:17 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i'm afraid it's way more complicated. e.g. if you consider an open wagon, you have different max volumes for bulk cargo and piece cargos
13:07:46 <andythenorth> frosch123: what blocked it? No-one made a test grf?
13:08:26 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: as soon as the max volume depends on the cargo type you might as well let the capacity depend on the cargo type, you're gaining nothing in that case
13:08:34 <frosch123> andythenorth: yes, noone tested it :)
13:09:07 <frosch123> and some other day, "someone" was argueing that cargos should decide which vehicles can carry them, and not the other way around :p
13:09:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: if you load coal into an open wagon, you can only go as far as the walls allow, if you load a harvesting machine into an open wagon, you can go as far as the loading gauge allows
13:09:18 <z-MaTRiX> what is your opinion of an ATI7000 card?
13:09:38 <andythenorth> frosch123: when last discussed, iirc we agreed cbs would be needed both ways
13:09:45 <andythenorth> and there'd have to be a decision on which wins
13:09:50 <andythenorth> which is a headache :P
13:10:47 <Eddi|zuHause> "cargos should decide which vehicles can carry them" <-- supposedly that was the purpose of cargo classes
13:11:11 <z-MaTRiX> yeah i always wanted intelligent livestock/grain
13:14:56 <pikka> goodnight all, hi Andy :)
13:15:06 <andythenorth> pikka: "crane tanks"
13:15:10 <andythenorth> talk another time
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13:42:57 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: what's the shortest express tram possible? Can we get it down to 3 vehicles in total? For lower capacity...
13:43:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 4 is the lowest
13:44:18 * andythenorth is puzzling about capacities at the moment
13:44:43 <Eddi|zuHause> for lower amounts, use trucks
13:46:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i think 60t with 5 wagons is a good compromise
13:47:26 <andythenorth> an obvious way to do 7.5t capacity when there are two vehicles that need it :P
13:47:56 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: yexo * r23065 /trunk/ (7 files in 3 dirs): -Add: -q option to read a savegame, write some general info and exit
13:53:23 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: now the fun part: matching the nfo for capacity + length to your ascii spec
13:54:04 <andythenorth> ideally without rewriting existing templates :P
13:55:00 <andythenorth> this is the bit you had to bug fix last time...
13:56:24 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause looks like I need some new options for vehicle length? Currently the template offers me 1/8 or 5/8
13:56:46 <andythenorth> seems I also need 2/8 and 3/8 ?
13:56:55 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i had something like that in my last patch
13:57:24 <Eddi|zuHause> not in the mood to dig that out right now, but i think i can fix something up for you later...
13:57:26 <andythenorth> I thought I committed your patch?
13:57:46 <andythenorth> to adjust the lengths just needs more varaction 2s, it's not painful
13:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i thought so too
13:58:11 <andythenorth> I suspect you added the 1/8 version
13:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> it should be fairly simple
14:01:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and THIS_LENGTH_ADJUST_2 have something to do with this
14:03:53 <andythenorth> I'll look into it
14:04:22 <andythenorth> I think they're used by locomotives only at the moment
14:04:28 <andythenorth> wagons have a hard coded set of adjusts
14:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i think i can rework the concept to adjust length of locomotive
14:05:00 <Eddi|zuHause> hang on a second
14:10:25 <andythenorth> so all 1/8 or 5/8 now?
14:10:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and the locomotive uses LENGTH_ADJUST_1 and 2
14:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i think LENGTH_ADJUST_1 = 06 and LENGTH_ADJUST_2 = 05
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14:15:48 <nidhoegger> im trying to build the dedicated server on a ubuntu server. but it keeps saying i got no lib lzma...ive installed according to the webpage liblzma-dev. error is still present
14:16:27 <Eddi|zuHause> you need lzma2 (sometimes called xz)
14:17:07 <Eddi|zuHause> lzma and lzma2 are different things
14:17:19 <nidhoegger> ive installed liblzma2 and liblzma-dev
14:17:29 <nidhoegger> according to the wiki only liblzma-dev is neccessary
14:17:59 <nidhoegger> there is no such package
14:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> then it's xz-dev
14:18:14 <Alberth> liblzma.so.5 => /usr/lib64/liblzma.so.5 <-- is what my openttd binary says
14:18:35 <nidhoegger> and libxz also doesnt exist
14:18:42 <Alberth> rpm -qf /usr/lib64/liblzma.so.5 <-- results in xz-libs-5.0.3-1.fc15.x86_64
14:18:51 <Alberth> but that's fedora, and not debian
14:19:03 <Eddi|zuHause> on suse it's called xz-devel
14:20:37 <nidhoegger> why does the dedicated server require a graphics set?
14:21:02 <Alberth> because it contains a lot more than pretty pictures
14:21:17 <Alberth> ie all meta data about vehicles etc etc
14:22:00 * Alberth ponders whether we have a wiki about these topics
14:23:32 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that all appears to work :D
14:23:38 <andythenorth> I know have to draw pictures
14:23:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: eery, right? :)
14:24:02 <andythenorth> currently the trams are the earlier models, painted pink, with push-me-pull-you (one at each end)
14:24:48 <andythenorth> "HEQS is not" :D
14:25:45 <MNIM> could speed up water aircraft development considerably
14:27:04 <Alberth> water aircraft does not sound very useful to me
14:27:29 <Alberth> ie what are you going to do with it? fish?
14:28:19 <andythenorth> Alberth: deliver supplies to remote camps
14:28:37 <andythenorth> Alberth: what water-feature recently got added to trunk...? :)
14:29:38 <Alberth> /me is tycoon, /me does not care about remote camps :p
14:30:45 <Alberth> a smaller (muddy) airport on the other hand at land would be more useful in such cases
14:31:29 <MNIM> andythenorth: isn't actually water feature, is clean GRF
14:32:03 <andythenorth> MNIM: I was thinking about float planes landing on rivers
14:32:18 <MNIM> delete water tiles, place newobject water tiles around intended airport to prevent flooding, place airport
14:32:22 <nidhoegger> can i somehow manually join an IP address?
14:32:43 <b_jonas> MNIM: wouldn't canal tiles work for that?
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14:33:22 <MNIM> they would, but that would create an ugly border mismatch unless you expand the sprites to cover neighboring land
14:33:45 <MNIM> which might or might not present clipping issues too.
14:34:00 <Alberth> nidhoegger: just type the ip instead of the hostname afaik
14:34:09 <b_jonas> border mismatch? don't the canals look just like sea?
14:34:31 <b_jonas> hmm, maybe at the airport
14:34:37 <b_jonas> there would be canal shores
14:35:06 <nidhoegger> working, thank you :D
14:38:34 <nidhoegger> is there a script or a option that keeps only 10 autosaves and removes the oldest ones?
14:38:45 <nidhoegger> i dont want my server hdd to fill up with autosaves
14:38:53 <Yexo> there is a config setting for that
14:39:13 <Yexo> set keep_all_autosave to false
14:39:17 <Rubidium> by default it keeps 16
14:39:24 <Yexo> and they should be named "autosave0.sav", "autosave1.sav" etc.
14:40:06 <Yexo> max_num_autosaves holds the number it keeps
14:40:26 <nidhoegger> but it somehow ignores my max client setting...
14:40:35 <nidhoegger> serverlist tells me server is 2 player only
14:40:56 <Yexo> it's max_clients in [network]
14:41:22 <nidhoegger> yes, i can set whatever i want, as soon as i run openttd -D it resets it to two
14:41:42 <Yexo> are you sure it's not twice in your config file or somethign like that?
14:42:03 <Alberth> you stop OpenTTD before modifying the config file?
14:42:08 <glx> there's also max_players IIRC
14:42:30 <Yexo> there is no max_players anymore
14:42:39 <Yexo> max_companies, max_clients and max_spectators
14:43:23 <nidhoegger> good, i think he got it now
14:43:41 <nidhoegger> if the server crashes, is there a way to reload the latest backup?
14:44:07 <Yexo> doesn't -g create a random game?
14:44:23 <glx> well -g /path/to/savegame
14:44:25 <nidhoegger> -g [savegame] = Start new/save game immediately
14:44:34 <frosch123> -G is random game :)
14:44:41 <Yexo> but for that you need to know what the savegam ename is
14:44:47 <Yexo> and you don't know that if the server crashed
14:48:40 <nidhoegger> i set the autosaves max to 4...so in the worst case the last 4 years will be lost only
14:51:15 <Yexo> you can load a savegame via rcon, so if you give your friends the rcon password they can just try all 4 until they have the last version
14:54:17 <nidhoegger> can i chat ingame?
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14:59:24 <nidhoegger> thanks...enter is the only key i didnt try
14:59:34 <nidhoegger> btw, if developers are here: MANY THANKS FOR THIS AWESOME GAME!
14:59:52 <Yexo> you've been talking to them ;)
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15:14:10 <nidhoegger> cant i rename town in server game?
15:14:37 <Eddi|zuHause> no, that is disabled
15:16:38 <Yexo> only the server can rename towns. with a dedicated server there is no way to do it
15:22:45 <nidhoegger> also not via rcon?
15:23:06 <brundlefly> what do i hg clone from to get a server which speaks the 1.1.3 protocol?
15:24:31 <Yexo> nidhoegger: I don't think there is a console command to rename towns
15:24:51 <Yexo> brundlefly: you'd need exactly version 1.1.3, I don't think that's in hg at all
15:25:09 <Yexo> though you could try to get the correct version (not tip from that repo, but something earlier) and force the revision to 1.1.3
15:25:19 <Yexo> checking out the 1.1.3 tag from svn would be easier
15:25:29 <brundlefly> i don't know how to svn
15:25:36 <Alberth> or download the source code of 1.1.3
15:25:55 <blotek_> is there any website with sourcemods for openttd ?
15:26:37 <andythenorth> only lead vehicle shows visual effect for RVs
15:26:38 <brundlefly> i'm trying to preserve the history, but i'm using the tarball right now
15:27:42 <Alberth> how would the history of 1.1.3 be useful? you better develop in trunk
15:28:15 <Alberth> since any change in 1.1.3 makes it non-1.1.3 and thus not useful for anybody
15:28:53 <brundlefly> i'm not going to distribute me changes anyway
15:29:24 <brundlefly> and i can't develop from the trunk without losing the ability to talk to 1.1.3 clients
15:29:48 <Yexo> if you want to communicate to 1.1.3 clients you have very limited possibilities anyway
15:30:12 <TrueBrain> the 1.1 HG already has the backports for a potential next release btw ;)
15:30:32 <brundlefly> well i don't know what those limited possibilities are
15:30:35 <TrueBrain> update to rev 'b81203d3886e' to get 1.1.3
15:30:58 <Yexo> why are you so set on not distributing your changes, and what exactly do you want to change?
15:31:03 <TrueBrain> "hg log" shows you the ogs
15:33:13 <brundlefly> i doubt anyone would want the changes. all i'm going to be doing is playing around with admin console things
15:33:49 <Yexo> anyway, if those changes are useful for you, wouldn't they also be useful for other people?
15:34:10 <brundlefly> if others want them, all they have to do is ask
15:37:00 <Alberth> which is a bit hard if you don't tell about them
15:37:14 <brundlefly> and they'll be on bitbucket soon
15:37:27 <brundlefly> i'm just playing around. no big deal
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15:54:48 <brundlefly> b81203d3886e still won't talk to 1.1.3 clients
15:54:48 <brundlefly> so i'll use the tarball i guess
15:58:51 <TrueBrain> subversion is always best to do for stable clients
15:59:00 <TrueBrain> mercurial clients need ... love
15:59:09 <TrueBrain> (they do not have a 'tag' clone)
16:03:51 <brundlefly> why is it that the protocol is so volatile?
16:05:04 <Yexo> the protocol is not, but every client has the complete gamestate
16:05:13 <Yexo> the server only sends commands to the client, not changes to the state
16:05:28 <Yexo> that means that when the main gameloop is changed the compatibility breaks
16:05:56 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: the protocol relies on the fact that all connected clients calculate everything game relevant in the exact same way
16:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> otherwise you'd need to transfer several MB per second
16:06:43 <Eddi|zuHause> which means nobody could play multiplayer that isn't on a 100Mbit line
16:06:52 <TrueBrain> and stable clients are forked seperately. So if you want to join stable servers, you need the source from a validated stable :P
16:06:57 <brundlefly> is that the same way quake does it?
16:07:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, quake does something entirely different
16:07:13 <Yexo> quake is no way comparable
16:07:30 <brundlefly> so why does ottd use more bandwidth than quake?
16:08:09 <TrueBrain> why is OpenTTD executable smaller than the Quake executable? :)
16:08:25 <nidhoegger> is there a way to open a chat window so i can see past messages?
16:08:31 <Yexo> did you measure how much bandwidth openttd uses?
16:08:52 <Yexo> nidhoegger: you can see them in the console (press the key left to 1 on your keyboard), otherwise no
16:09:13 <brundlefly> s//so why would ottd use more bandwidth than quake if it did things the quake way?/
16:09:37 <Alberth> we have a LOT of gamestate
16:10:08 <Yexo> the gamestate in quake is basically: position, direction, health, some ammo for every player
16:10:41 <Yexo> the gamestate in openttd is easily several mb for normal maps
16:11:03 <Yexo> the map alone is 2.4 mb for a 512*512 map
16:11:28 <Eddi|zuHause> and then you don't have any vehicles or stations yet
16:11:48 <Yexo> if you want to sent that every game tick (when it changes) you need 70megabyte / second
16:12:01 <Yexo> add in vehicles and stations and even a gigabit connection is not fast enough
16:12:16 <brundlefly> why would you need to send the entire map each frame? why wouldn't a diff do?
16:12:39 <Alberth> you forgot about the industries & houses :)
16:12:43 <Yexo> a diff could do, but that means keeping the old map so you could actually diff
16:13:06 <brundlefly> well doesn't the client keep the map?
16:13:11 <Yexo> a diff not only needs to send the changed bytes but also some metadata
16:13:17 <Yexo> brundlefly: yes, it does
16:13:27 <Yexo> that's why we currently don't send changes to the map but only the commands
16:13:29 <Alberth> brundlefly: useful for sending a dif from the server :p
16:13:31 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: you need two maps to make a diff
16:14:01 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: and the diff may get larger than the actual map
16:14:23 <brundlefly> but why not a diff queue?
16:14:54 <brundlefly> and send a "keyframe" when a client falls behind and the queue becomes to big?
16:15:22 <Yexo> a keyframe means an actual savegame, which can be several mb big
16:15:46 <brundlefly> well that gets sent when a client connects, right?
16:15:48 <Yexo> which for a lot of players still means multiple seconds downloading, so either pausing the game for multiple seconds or being behind for a few second again
16:16:02 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: yes, and connecting takes several seconds
16:16:36 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: so unless you want the keyframe to be sent only once per minute...
16:17:01 <brundlefly> like i said, only when a client falls out of sync
16:17:02 <Alberth> and do one frame / minute :)
16:17:19 <Yexo> brundlefly: you mean as in "too slow" or "desync error"?
16:17:28 <brundlefly> so how does the ottd way prevent a client falling out of sync and needing a "keyframe"?
16:17:35 <Alberth> brundlefly: yeah, but once he is, he will not get up-to-date
16:17:48 <Alberth> since downloading takes too much time
16:17:52 <Yexo> brundlefly: by executing the same commands on both the server and all clients
16:18:00 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: "needing a keyframe" is done by kicking out the player, and he has to rejoin
16:18:26 <brundlefly> then it sounds like we're using different terms for the same thing then
16:19:03 <Yexo> hence my question: what exactly do you mean by "getting out of sync"?
16:19:54 <brundlefly> i mean getting so far behind the server than the server decides to stop maintain the old diffs for that client
16:20:41 <Yexo> that means the server would have to keep diffs, which it currently doesn't do
16:20:52 <Yexo> the reason for that being too much bandwith
16:21:33 <nidhoegger> where does the dedicated server store the autosaves? its not in .openttd
16:21:57 <brundlefly> i'm not seeing how the server maintaining a diff queue in memory would take up bandwidth
16:22:46 <Yexo> the problem is not maintaining the diff queue, the problem is sending that diff queue to every client
16:23:29 <brundlefly> i wouldn't send the entire queue each frame, just the most recent diff each frame
16:23:44 <brundlefly> as a video codec would do
16:23:45 <Yexo> but every diff can easily be 1 megabyte
16:23:52 <Yexo> and there are 30 frames each second
16:24:15 <brundlefly> how could a diff be 1M but a command can't be?
16:24:20 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: take for example tree growth
16:24:36 <Eddi|zuHause> brundlefly: it touches a large part of the map each tick, not confined to any given region
16:24:39 <Yexo> brundlefly: because there are a lot of things done automatically that don't need commands
16:24:47 <Yexo> like vehicles moving, tree growth, animation etc.
16:25:46 <Eddi|zuHause> every 2.5 seconds, tree growth may have changed all tiles on the map
16:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> so at least every 2.5 seconds you cause as much as one full savegame of diff-queues
16:27:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (actually i lied, it's more like 8 seconds)
16:28:28 <Yexo> animated houses / industries can change there animated state every tick
16:28:39 <Yexo> or maybe every 4th tick for houses
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16:45:33 <TrueBrain> brundlefly: btw, your initial assumption that OepnTTD uses more bandwidth than Quake is wrong :p
16:45:59 <TrueBrain> Quake is between 5 KB/s and 15 KB/s, depending on a few factors
16:46:04 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD is around 1.5 KB/s
16:46:06 <brundlefly> i phrased my initial question wrong
16:46:15 <brundlefly> see the sed command below
16:46:27 <TrueBrain> your sed was cloned from nothing, so it made even less sense :D
16:46:47 <brundlefly> your sed-fu is weak
16:46:56 <TrueBrain> I am a sane person, yeah ;) :P
16:47:35 <TrueBrain> anyway, your question is similar to the question we used to get a lot: why doesn't OpenTTD uses UDP for its gamestate! :P
16:47:39 <TrueBrain> I always loved that question :)
16:47:55 <Eddi|zuHause> a"<TrueBrain> I am a sane person" <-- hahaha :p
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16:47:59 <brundlefly> i understand why you wouldn't want to deal with udp
16:48:19 <TrueBrain> has nothing to do with wanting; Quake is from nature a completely different game than OpenTTD :)
16:48:25 <TrueBrain> the information is very different
16:48:36 <TrueBrain> if in Quake a few packets of the position of a player are not received, nobody cares
16:49:01 <TrueBrain> I always wonder why people compare OpenTTD in network with FPS
16:49:12 <brundlefly> i mean wanting to re-implement tcp atop udp
16:49:20 <TrueBrain> TCP on UDP == TCP :)
16:49:25 <TrueBrain> such a huge overhead for nothing :P
16:49:32 <TrueBrain> (many have tried, many more have failed :))
16:49:41 <brundlefly> probably becuause quake is the only game protocol i'm passably familiar with
16:49:49 <TrueBrain> and many people are
16:49:56 <TrueBrain> which surprises me tbh :)
16:50:05 <brundlefly> i can build a 1.1.3 speaking server from the tarball
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16:50:25 <TrueBrain> explains a lot why and how things are done in OpenTTD
16:50:38 <brundlefly> but when i add an .hg dir, make does some shenanigans so that it can't speak 1.1.3 anymore
16:50:42 <brundlefly> how do it fix that?
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16:51:06 <TrueBrain> if you have the 1.1.3 source tarball, you should be having a .. what is the file called ...
16:51:25 <brundlefly> it looks the same before and after
16:51:26 <Yexo> I think it'll keep working if you just do hg init, but just test to make sure
16:51:32 <TrueBrain> ah , lol, hg takes precendence :D
16:51:48 <TrueBrain> findversion.sh checks first svn, then git, then hg, then .ottdrev :D
16:51:55 <michi_cc> brundlefly: By using a subversion or git checkout as the config script will also try to get the hg from your new repo.
16:51:57 <Yexo> I'd say that's the sane order
16:52:00 <brundlefly> src/rev.cpp also looks the same before and after
16:52:08 <TrueBrain> Yexo: it is; just unexpected :D
16:52:55 <TrueBrain> brundlefly: but that brings us to the main question again: why do you want to do that? It only makes sense if you want to modify 1.1.3, which you shouldn't be doing :D
16:53:16 <brundlefly> so i can play with the admin interface
16:53:26 <TrueBrain> why can't you otherwise?
16:53:27 <Eddi|zuHause> mäh... no matter how flexible your track geometry is wrt offered switch types, you immediatly find a situation where it's not enough
16:53:34 <TrueBrain> if with the admin interface you mean the admin port, it just works?
16:53:42 <brundlefly> i want my changes to run on my server
16:53:56 <TrueBrain> ah; officially OpenTTD doesn't support those actions :)
16:54:20 <TrueBrain> you most likely will claim they cause no potential problem, but we might receive bug reports that a client crashes or something (should never happen, but okay :P)
16:54:57 <TrueBrain> sadly, in Open Source, we are rather limited in avoiding such problems, so a ./configure --help should help you enough
16:55:15 <TrueBrain> just use with EXTREME care
16:55:39 <brundlefly> i did ./configure --revision=1.1.3 but it still wouldn't talk 1.1.3
16:55:56 <brundlefly> i probably should have said that
16:56:19 <TrueBrain> and to my knowledge, that works
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17:28:28 <blotek> i got errors while trying to apply patch ...
17:28:48 <Eddi|zuHause> then you didn't get the right revision for the patch
17:36:41 <Alberth> (or some other patch utility that does not understand git patches)
17:37:46 <blotek> standard bash patch command
17:38:32 <Alberth> bash has no 'patch', but close enough :)
17:38:48 <Alberth> then your revision is most likely wrong
17:39:46 <blotek> can i apply it to actual version (1.1.3) or only testing releases?
17:39:50 <Alberth> by the looks of the file name yacd_v2_3_r22532.patch you need r22532
17:40:33 <Alberth> not a release (perhaps a nightly, not sure), just a random trunk version probably
17:41:37 <Alberth> blotek: patching releases is very non-useful, as there is nothing useful you can do with it afterwards
17:42:16 <Alberth> and all things you CAN do with it can be done with a trunk version too
17:42:24 <Yexo> blotek: if you patch 1.1.3 it's not 1.1.3 anymore. All clients would also need the patched version, so you might as well distribute a patched trunk
17:43:10 <Alberth> which is much easier in keeping up-to-date for merging
17:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: translators * r23066 /trunk/src/lang/ (turkish.txt unfinished/tamil.txt welsh.txt):
17:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: tamil - 23 changes by aswn
17:45:19 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: turkish - 13 changes by niw3
17:45:20 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: welsh - 1 changes by kazzie
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18:39:23 <b_jonas> wow, UKRS gives me such a large choice of cars carrying goods already
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18:41:19 <b_jonas> but how can I tell which cars have continuous brake?
18:42:17 <Alberth> doesn't the documentation of the set tell you that?
18:44:14 <b_jonas> no, even that doesn't tell clearly
18:44:27 <b_jonas> it would be best if the in-game interface told me
18:45:18 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's possible to give an explanation text in the buy menu, it's the newgrfs job to actually do that
18:46:17 <b_jonas> some newgrf does do that
18:47:12 <Eddi|zuHause> well. then talk to the author of the newgrf
18:48:36 <Yexo> b_jonas: there is no concept in openttd of "continuous brake" for cars
18:48:47 <b_jonas> Yexo: does it depend only on the engine?\
18:48:52 <Yexo> if UKRS offers that, it's something custom done by that newgrf
18:49:13 <Elu> my guess is that cars with it don't require the train to have a brake van
18:49:16 <Yexo> <b_jonas> it would be best if the in-game interface told me <- I was explaining why that is not possible to do for openttd, although the newgrf can supply some extra text there
18:49:51 <b_jonas> but istr the japanese trains newgrf does exactly that: adds extra text about continuous brake
18:51:07 <Elukka> yeah, newgrfs can do that
18:51:18 <Elukka> it's obviously up to the creator of the newgrf to do that though
18:53:43 <b_jonas> I think for this line I'll buy a train with a fast and expensive engine and one with a slow but cheap engine and see which one works better
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18:57:45 <b_jonas> I'll do that experiment with the bulk cargos instead
19:00:49 <b_jonas> so UKRS implements this feature that when a train is not running it has a lowered running cost?
19:06:44 <Elukka> it's a pretty nice feature
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19:32:06 <MNIM> you can have a lot of 'exhibits' with that feature :D
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19:34:45 <b_jonas> for exhibits you explicitly stop the train which stops the maintenance cost even with no newgrf
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19:46:18 <MNIM> oh, I thought that wasn't standard
19:56:13 <b_jonas> ah, and apparently UKRS allows me to run short trains without a brake van, but longer trains using the same engine and cars require a brake van.
19:56:30 <b_jonas> just to further complicate the rules
20:02:30 <andythenorth> adding a single vehicle to HEQS takes a whole day
20:06:05 <Yexo> b_jonas: no image trying to code an AI. You at least can read the provided readme.txt or the website
20:06:56 <b_jonas> maybe rules for brake vans and tenders should be supported by the core
20:07:09 <b_jonas> even if not used in the default grf set
20:24:07 <CIA-6> OpenTTD: rubidium * r23067 /trunk/src/economy.cpp: -Fix [FS#4812]: updating the group statistics got more strict checks, so there was some trouble moving a vehicles and groups from one company to another
20:30:16 <andythenorth> I can't get my tram to show correct capacity in vehicle menu
20:30:35 <andythenorth> consist is: engine + 15 wagons with same ID
20:30:46 <andythenorth> wagons have 15t capacity by default
20:31:02 <andythenorth> last vehicle in consist gets 7t capacity using cb36
20:31:41 <andythenorth> if I handle cargo FF with a chain handling cb36, I can get something, but not correct result
20:32:51 <andythenorth> does an articulated road vehicle trailing part have a cargo subtype set for buy menu chain?
20:36:17 <andythenorth> I need to fix all the trams in fact
20:36:31 <andythenorth> frosch123: any suggestions? ^
20:36:48 <andythenorth> I can explain issue better if that helps
20:36:54 <andythenorth> maybe I'm missing a trick somewhere
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20:41:50 <frosch123> when you buy a vehicle, subtypes are all zero
20:42:10 <frosch123> i guess your issue is that you try to detect the last part using some variable
20:42:14 <frosch123> like position in consist
20:42:21 <frosch123> but that is not going to work in purchase list
20:42:37 <andythenorth> I considered using a different ID for the vehicle, but then I have to rewrite all templates :P
20:42:49 <andythenorth> (e.g. last vehicle)
20:42:54 <frosch123> usualy i suggest to make all trailing parts return zero capacity in purchase list, and return the complete capacity with the first vehicle
20:43:10 <andythenorth> this would be the best fix for all HEQS trams
20:43:16 <andythenorth> they all have the issue to some extent
20:43:39 <frosch123> if all vehicles including the front have the same id you are screwed :p
20:44:13 <andythenorth> so use cb36 on all tram locomotives I guess
20:44:46 <frosch123> just make sure to set the action 0 capacity property to a non-zero value. then you can do everything with cb 36 you like
20:44:57 <frosch123> (if you set the property to zero, the cb will not be called)
20:45:29 * andythenorth will experiments
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21:15:30 <andythenorth> frosch123: if cb36 is used, are all properties reset to 1?
21:15:37 <andythenorth> unless explicitly defined?
21:16:06 <andythenorth> (more likely a mistake by me) :P
21:18:13 <andythenorth> if I use cb36 to adjust capacity, I also get weight 1t, speed 6mph
21:19:08 <Yexo> that's definitely an error by you
21:20:02 <andythenorth> what could cause it?
21:20:43 <MNIM> well, you can, obviously :P
21:27:52 * andythenorth finds the answer
21:38:24 <andythenorth> if I set the default cargo to GOOD(s), cb36 has a rather confused understanding of what to do
21:38:44 <andythenorth> all capacities come out multiplied by 0.5
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21:40:46 <andythenorth> same if default is mail
21:41:35 <andythenorth> is the correct answer to double all capacities?
21:42:15 <andythenorth> frosch123: ^ I think this is a known issue?
21:43:30 <Yexo> after CB36 the capacity multipliers are applied
21:43:52 <andythenorth> I can't think of a solution :P
21:44:50 <Yexo> don't se mail or goods as default
21:45:06 <andythenorth> there's nothing else I can rely on :(
21:45:22 <Yexo> that is indeed a problem with the current newgrf specs
21:45:27 <andythenorth> this vehicle refits to a limited range
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21:50:33 <andythenorth> I can rely on mail being in most games
21:50:38 <andythenorth> it's quite pathological to remove it
21:56:12 <andythenorth> this makes no sense at all
22:00:10 <frosch123> wow, that cargo magic image is only a year old now
22:00:16 <frosch123> i thought it existed way longer :o
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22:09:09 <nidhoegger> ive got a single question left: im running a dedicated server since today and a few friends and i got a very profitable network. will the money variable get an overrun if it gets too much?
22:10:06 <Yexo> it can hold up to 9.22e18 and even after that it won't overflow
22:10:16 * andythenorth finds the bugs in his own code
22:22:31 <andythenorth> goodnight - and thanks :)
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