IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-23
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02:04:13 <xavexgoem> Is STD_CONDBOOL from the old settings.h essentially STD_BOOL in settings.ini, or am I confused?
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05:03:06 <andythenorth> moin
05:03:19 * andythenorth wonders what moin actually means
05:04:30 <pjpe> low german greeting
05:04:31 <pjpe> meaning
05:04:32 <pjpe> who cares
05:04:36 <pjpe> something nice
05:18:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wrt FIRS cargos - discussion continues
05:19:52 <andythenorth> I haven't answered in the thread becauseI'm bored of having to justify choices :P
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05:25:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I just try to show why IMHO his view is quite flawed from a gameplay POV
05:25:55 <planetmaker> But... I just decided to stop "discussing" it. I'm bored of it
05:25:58 <planetmaker> too ;-)
05:26:06 <planetmaker> good morning also
05:26:09 <andythenorth> hola
05:26:38 <andythenorth> FMSP is the same stuff as farmers' coops sell:
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05:27:19 <planetmaker> yes
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05:27:36 <planetmaker> ensp is a superset of what hardware stores sell.
05:28:09 <planetmaker> mnsp a superset of what stationaries sell. Somewhat
05:28:21 <andythenorth> MNSP is actually the only controversial one
05:28:35 <planetmaker> that's the only one which could be discussed first, yes
05:28:45 <planetmaker> though I'd not open that can now :-)
05:28:49 <andythenorth> strictly MNSP means 'anything that goes from secondary to another secondary, but doesn't fit in the other categories'
05:28:55 <andythenorth> :P
05:28:56 <planetmaker> Rather - if at all - adjust it silently ;-)
05:29:37 <andythenorth> MNSP also means 'these inputs are not the major part of the finished product'
05:31:40 <andythenorth> ENSP is the kind of stuff supplied by these guys:
05:32:38 <planetmaker> yes. mnsp is less "strong" than the primary supplies
05:32:50 <planetmaker> it just helps production output slightly
05:33:09 <planetmaker> but from a gameplay pov I still like it being called supplies :-)
05:33:18 <andythenorth> hysterical raisins :P
05:33:21 <planetmaker> despite the hassle to translate it :-)
05:33:33 <andythenorth> it's neither 100% components nor 100% packaging
05:34:12 <andythenorth> ENSP could more strictly be Mining Supplies, but that's not great for oil rigs and oil wells
05:34:23 <planetmaker> yup
05:34:28 <andythenorth> Mineral Extractive Industry Supplies is a bit wordy
05:34:31 <planetmaker> "oil mining" ;-)
05:35:08 <andythenorth> Extraction Supplies <- might also apply to dentists :P
05:35:42 <andythenorth> if the subtype was stored on the cargo, not the vehicle, then I might rethink my refusal of cargo subtypes
05:35:52 <andythenorth> but meh
05:37:59 <Rubidium> andythenorth: it's said to come from mooien (Dag/Abend/Moren), so it'd be equivalent to "good"
05:39:08 <Rubidium> although currently "mooie dag" (in Dutch) can be translated as "beatiful day"
05:39:32 <andythenorth> in english we just nod :P
05:39:45 <andythenorth> in a stoic fashion
05:39:49 <andythenorth> not so good on irc
05:41:36 <andythenorth> planetmaker: he is right though
05:41:41 <andythenorth> about it being inconsistent
05:42:38 <planetmaker> what is inconsistent about supplies?
05:43:02 <planetmaker> supplies are a game _concept_ and not just another cargo
05:43:10 <planetmaker> thus they deserve to be somewhat special
05:43:11 <andythenorth> he's right but wrong
05:43:19 <andythenorth>
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05:45:37 <planetmaker> interesting quote. Seems to have more background than I can grasp now ;-)
05:46:30 <andythenorth> I am reading the original essay to see what his point was
05:46:45 <andythenorth> like most quotes, it's repeated to support whatever the person using it means
05:46:52 <andythenorth> perhaps not what the original write meant :P
05:49:50 <andythenorth> "With consistency a great soul has simply nothing to do. He may as well concern himself with his shadow on the wall." :P
05:51:09 <planetmaker> :-D
05:51:13 <planetmaker> sounds good enough
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06:43:24 <dihedral> good morning
06:44:00 <Rubidium> quak dihedral
06:44:12 <dihedral> :-)
06:46:36 <Eddi|zuHause> mornings are never good
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08:25:42 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause> mornings are never good <- not even the morning after? :-D
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09:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: nope. only the time before that :p
10:07:55 <Terkhen> hello
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10:26:49 <lyns> hello! where i can get a web server status for ottd?
10:27:20 <planetmaker>
10:27:26 <planetmaker> though... webserver?
10:27:35 <planetmaker> what web server status?
10:27:49 <lyns> no, i need setup Server Status for my servers on my site
10:28:02 <planetmaker> look at ottdlib
10:28:13 <planetmaker> and bother dihedral with its setup :-P
10:28:52 <lyns> I want to do here as
10:29:15 <planetmaker> yes. Look at how to use openttdlib
10:29:18 <planetmaker> that's what we use there
10:29:27 <lyns> щл
10:29:28 <lyns> ok
10:30:21 <lyns> i'm found it... thanks!
10:30:27 <planetmaker> no problem
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11:02:26 <Ammler> or here:
11:29:03 <dihedral> hehe
11:29:06 <dihedral> was not there :-D
11:29:11 <dihedral> and he's gone :-P
11:29:16 <dihedral> or she
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11:32:31 <lyns__> How i can set motd for clients: say_client? where i can get variable of client_id? i see a scripts in scripts folder, but i can't get client_id var
11:33:48 <Yexo> I don't think you can do that via scripts
11:35:02 <peter1138> just gotta spam everyone
11:35:07 <Yexo> you can do it via on_server_connect.scr but only by using "say", which means everyone will see it
11:36:47 <lyns__> i see it here:
11:37:09 <dihedral> that does not work - you need a bot to do that for you ;-)
11:37:27 <dihedral> unless you want to spam all players
11:38:01 <dihedral> some people have patched openttd to do that job - others use a command line wrapper - yet others again use a bot
11:38:07 <dihedral> ... i think some use a bot :-D
11:38:12 <dihedral> talking of which :-(
11:38:15 * dihedral cries
11:38:39 <lyns__> hm
11:38:53 <lyns__> ok, i try to search
11:38:58 <lyns__> thanks
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11:46:32 <orudge> bouncy bouncy
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11:52:26 <dihedral> yep - that must have hurt :-P
12:05:26 <peter1138> i dunno, people using random bouncers...
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12:06:05 <dihedral> i have a bouncher too, but that does not disconnect so often :-P
12:14:10 <andythenorth> hmm
12:14:18 <andythenorth> I should draw tile for the last part of a river
12:14:24 <andythenorth> (e.g. the source)
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13:14:38 <Belugas> hi
13:18:32 <peter1138> hi
13:18:38 <__ln__> hi
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13:25:34 <andythenorth> hola
13:25:48 <andythenorth> peter1138: vehicles-in-river-ferries ?
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13:36:53 <Belugas> flooop flooop flooop
13:37:10 <Belugas> mississipi river racing 1801
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13:47:04 <dihedral>
13:47:20 <dihedral> has been down for 2 days now :-D
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14:17:15 <peter1138> andythenorth, you've written it? cool :D
14:17:35 <andythenorth> yup
14:17:38 <andythenorth> but I lost it :)
14:17:45 <andythenorth> or maybe it was all a dream
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14:18:45 <hadrianius> If I may ask a question, is there a way to differentiate between trams and road vehicles for the AI?
14:20:33 <Rubidium> isn't there a supported roadtypes API?
14:20:39 <Yexo> yes, engines build for ROADTYPE_ROAD vs ROADTYPE_TRAM
14:21:11 <hadrianius> if I do this however, it also selects all the trams?
14:21:12 <hadrianius> local pos_buses = AIEngineList(AIVehicle.VT_ROAD);
14:21:27 <Yexo> yes, you have to filter that list if you don't want the trams
14:21:51 <Yexo> pos_buses.Valuate(AIEngine.GetRoadType);
14:21:59 <Yexo> pos_buses.KeepValue(AIRoad.ROADTYPE_ROAD);
14:22:11 <hadrianius> Thank you
14:22:12 <Yexo> than you have a list of vehicles only able to run on normal road
14:22:48 <hadrianius> It worked like a charm ;)
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17:05:49 <hadrianius> rectangle.Valuate(AIStation.HasStationType,AIStation.STATION_BUS_STOP);
17:05:49 <hadrianius> rectangle.KeepValue(1); Could anyone tell me how to fix this so that I can Valuate all tiles for having a Bus Stop?
17:07:28 <Yexo> the rectangle is a tile loop?
17:07:29 <hadrianius> as right now nothing has a bus stop apparently
17:07:36 <hadrianius> it's a Tile List
17:07:36 <Yexo> ehm, tile list?
17:07:39 <Yexo> ok
17:08:10 <Yexo> the first argument to AIStation.HasStationType is a StationID, and what your code you're giving it a TileIndex, which obviously doesn't work
17:08:49 <Yexo> you could use AIRoad.IsRoadStationTile
17:08:59 <hadrianius> ok, thank you, missed that
17:09:15 <Yexo> that filters for both normal and drive through stations, so use IsDriveThroughRoadStationTile if you want one but not the other
17:10:26 <hadrianius> Works like a charm now ^^
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17:20:19 <Paragulis> Hello, can somebody help me with autopilot?
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17:46:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22817 /trunk/src/lang/ (12 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:46:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 11 changes by KorneySan
17:46:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: catalan - 16 changes by arnau
17:46:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 5 changes by SmatZ
17:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 17 changes by jpx_
17:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
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17:50:44 <LordAro> evenings
17:57:39 <SmatZ> hellos
17:57:58 <Zuu> Hello LordAro
18:02:27 <LordAro> hi SmatZ and Zuu
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18:21:44 <LordAro> hai Alberth
18:21:54 <Alberth> hi LordAro
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18:22:03 <Wolf01> evening
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18:22:12 <Alberth> evenink Wolf01
18:22:25 <LordAro> odd, internet just cut out..
18:22:30 <Alberth> LordAro: (20:23:56) Alberth: hi LordAro <-- in case you missed it :)
18:22:35 <andythenorth> holas
18:22:37 <Wolf01> and is evenhot too
18:22:51 <Alberth> hi andy
18:22:58 <LordAro> Alberth: i did :)
18:23:19 * Alberth ponders about oddhot
18:24:56 <LordAro> - hows about it?
18:27:00 <Alberth> yexo looks like the guy to talk to
18:27:24 <LordAro> well, you just called him :)
18:27:37 * Alberth knows
18:28:56 <Yexo> why moving bit 5 to a bool setting instead of using bit 10 for the new setting?
18:29:05 <Yexo> seems like pointless moving of code
18:32:59 <Wolf01> woot, newgrf scanning, it's a lot I don't update the game :P
18:35:16 <Zuu> Is it intended that the NewGRF window is hidden while scanning newgrf if you press the button to rescan newgrfs from the NewGRF window?
18:40:34 <Yexo> LordAro: patch looks decent enough
18:40:43 <Yexo> but I haven't tested it (and am not about to right now)
18:41:49 <__ln__>
18:43:04 <SpComb> old
18:44:11 <frosch123> Zuu: all windows are hidden when a progress window is opened
18:45:11 <Zuu> okay, it makes some sense as the content of the NewGRF window potentially could be invalid until the refreshment of available NewGRFs is done.
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19:09:33 <Wolf01> is it there any noticeable change since the new station gui?
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19:17:23 <Ammler> frosch123: maybe that new scanning gui does break scanning on dedicated server with enabled blitter
19:18:40 <frosch123> if trunk is broken, you should make a bug report. but why should dedicated servers show a progress dialog?
19:19:29 <Ammler> frosch123: well, you need to patch trunk to enable blitter on dedicated server
19:19:56 <Ammler> basically remove the if clause on source.lst
19:20:14 <peter1138> you need to patch trunk to make it crash?
19:20:36 <Ammler> peter1138: awesome, isn't?
19:20:59 <Ammler> but that makes it kinda hard to make a valid bug report
19:21:57 <Ammler> peter1138: I guess you were that funny guy, who added that useless if clause to the source ;-)
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19:24:06 <Ammler> just tell me how I should create the bugreport so it does not get rejected
19:27:06 <Ammler> frosch123: dedicated server does not need to show that bar, that would be fully ok
19:27:32 <Ammler> the question is why does scanning depend on the blitter?
19:27:59 <peter1138> so how do you make it crash anyway?
19:28:07 <Ammler> it doesn't crash
19:28:16 <Ammler> it just does not scan the grfs
19:28:17 <peter1138> oh
19:28:24 <Ammler> so it can't load the save
19:28:33 <peter1138> but only with blitters enabled?
19:28:41 <frosch123> Ammler: maybe hack ScanNewGRFFiles as well
19:28:53 <Ammler> peter1138: yes
19:28:59 <Ammler> on dedicated server
19:29:06 <Ammler> @logs
19:29:06 <DorpsGek> Ammler:
19:29:29 <Ammler> <-- compare those 2 logs I pasted
19:29:45 <Ammler> I also wrote the start command there
19:30:24 <glx> and you tested a clean build too ?
19:31:19 <Ammler> glx: you _need_ to patch openttd to have blitter on dedicated server
19:31:34 <Ammler> else I could make a bug report :-P
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19:32:38 <Ammler>
19:33:43 <Alberth> so you want us to finish your patch?
19:33:50 <Ammler> and you can't run a non dedicated build as dedicated server on a host without sdl
19:34:33 <Ammler> Alberth: well, you broke it
19:34:56 <Alberth> I did?
19:35:08 <Ammler> one of the openttd devs :-)
19:35:46 <Alberth> you want us to update your patch?
19:36:00 <Ammler> well, if you ask for, I would not mind
19:36:31 <Alberth> yeah well, both are equally unlikely to happen, I think
19:37:56 <Ammler> it was already silly to disable blitter for dedicated server, but it was easy revertable
19:38:55 <Ammler> it somehow strange, how you actively code against MP all the time :-P
19:38:56 * Alberth does not understand how that is silly
19:39:38 <Alberth> MP is the most demanding mode, so if something fails, it will fail there
19:40:14 <Ammler> but it is hard to bugreport that, as it needs patching trunk
19:40:29 <Ammler> so it will most likey just rejected because of it
19:40:48 <Alberth> I think you are right there :)
19:40:58 <Ammler> so I can just silently remove that patch :-)
19:42:06 <Alberth> I am sure you can, as I completely fail to understand what your problem is a problem
19:42:13 <Alberth> s/what/how/
19:42:34 <Ammler> just compare those to logfiles, it is quite obvious
19:42:40 <Ammler> two*
19:43:08 <Ammler> with -b it doesn't scan the newgrfs and so it can't load the grf
19:43:12 <Ammler> the save*
19:44:10 <Alberth> but it needs a patched program to get this problem, right?
19:44:20 <frosch123> Ammler: well, take a debugger and what where it goes wrong
19:44:23 <Ammler> yes, since some commits
19:44:41 <Ammler> Alberth: but it is not like the patch is new
19:45:03 <Ammler> it was basically a revert of peter1138 bad mood some time ago
19:45:26 <Alberth> age of a patch has nothing to do with it, imho
19:45:45 <glx> and I fail to see how it could fail
19:47:43 <Ammler> glx: I guess, scanning does now check for blitter and then decide if creates a gui or not, and it seems not able to work on dedicated server
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19:49:22 <Ammler> if I am right, maybe it could be done with an other way, e.g. check for dedicated mode
19:50:06 <Ammler> blitter should not implicit that a gui is available
19:50:25 <Yexo> Ammler: see
19:50:45 <Yexo> if I read that commit right it checks for "no blitter" OR "dedicated server" but it runs the scan always
19:51:10 <Yexo> without gui or in dedicated server mode it just won't create a separate thread for it
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19:55:59 <glx> indeed the result should be the same
19:56:11 <Ammler> Yexo: yes, but as I have blitter enabled, it tries to draw the progress bar which might fail on dedicated server?
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19:56:38 <Yexo> what does drawing the progress bar have to do with scanning newgrfs?
19:57:02 <glx> with or without blitter it doesn't start the thread for dedicated
19:57:14 <glx> that's what the code says
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19:57:35 <glx> but it still does the scan
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20:00:01 <Ammler> let me test with revert of that commit
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20:01:48 <Yexo> that won't help you
20:01:48 <Yexo> if you run with -d grf=1, do you get the lines "Scanning for NewGRFs" and "Scan complete, found %d files" ?
20:01:56 <Ammler> no, this wasn't the issue
20:02:35 <Ammler> I also get another console somehow
20:03:57 <Ammler>
20:05:00 <Ammler> ./openttd -c openttd.cfg -D -g save/restart.sav -b8bpp-optimized -d grf=1 ^
20:05:51 <frosch123> try r22798
20:05:57 <frosch123> (without)
20:06:23 <Ammler> was that yesteryesterday nightly?
20:06:51 <Ammler> without what?
20:06:51 <glx> frosch123: should not matter I think
20:07:07 <Ammler> without blitter, it works
20:07:16 <frosch123> to me it looks as if it loads the savegame before starting the server or so
20:08:28 <Ammler> frosch123: indeed
20:08:35 <Ammler> I can load the save after
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20:10:13 <Ammler> somehow it looks like there are different consoles for blitter or without blitter
20:13:23 <Ammler> confusing...
20:13:30 <Zuu> Hmm, doesn't OpenTTD have a macro-statement to put after a default: that should never happen?
20:13:39 <Zuu> I can't find the name of it in the coding style.
20:13:49 <Rubidium> NOT_REACHED()
20:13:54 <Zuu> Thanks
20:14:27 <Zuu> Is it compulsory? Eg. should I add it to the wiki as mandatory?
20:17:50 <Terkhen> I think it should be
20:18:38 <Ammler> I can't start a new game with blitter anymore
20:19:07 <Ammler> autopilot got confused too
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20:20:24 <Zuu> Terkhen: should the whole default:\nNOT_REACHED() construct be mandatory unless you have a meningfull default case?
20:21:05 <Terkhen> oh, I got you wrong
20:21:24 <frosch123> in the gui there are many switches without default
20:21:31 <Terkhen> I think that the "default: NOT_REACHED()" syntax should be mandatory in those cases in which it is used
20:22:20 <Terkhen> it should only be used on switches where you expect new options on the future, where an error might not be obvious and so on
20:23:30 <Zuu> I've now only documented that it can be used, but not put in any requirements:
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20:24:18 <michi_cc> Zuu: It is mostly mandatory with enum types, as some compilers will warn if you don't handle all enum values inside a switch.
20:24:19 <Ammler> is it possible to enable/change blitter after start?
20:25:08 <Yexo> no
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20:27:19 * Zuu kind of disslike the long name of AIAirportType::IsAirportTypeInformationAvailable
20:27:29 <Zuu> but I don't have any better ideas..
20:27:45 <Zuu> You could short Information to just "Info".
20:27:47 <Ammler> hmm, I do also get strange results with clean openttd:
20:28:04 <Ammler> this is a nightly download from
20:28:24 <John> Hi can someone help me? I just downloaded openttd and all the graphics/sound folders. I open the game easily and can create a new map, but when I'm unable to scroll around the map.
20:28:37 <Zuu> Hmm maybe completely scrap the "Information" part as I've renamed "IsValidAirport" to "IsAirportTypeBuilbable".
20:28:52 <Terkhen> John: can you scroll using the right mouse button?
20:29:04 <Zuu> But it is a bit wrong to say that an airport that you can't build is available.
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20:29:17 <John> No I can't. I can click all the buttons at the top, but I can't scroll.
20:29:28 <Ammler> ok, looks like I can make a valid bug report :-)
20:29:39 <John> Ah,, user error. My bad haha
20:29:47 <John> It's working fine now thanks
20:30:08 <John> I was doing something wrong when I clicked. Thanks though.
20:30:09 <Zuu> I would like to rename IsAirportTypeInformationAvailable to IsAirportTypeValid, but that would mean a mess as there is an other function that used to have that name..
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20:30:43 <Zuu> (except that I've added "Type" into the name)
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20:32:17 <Ammler> the question is, if starting usual (non-dedicated) openttd build with -D and -b supported?
20:32:48 <Ammler> well, I create the report, up to you :-)
20:35:54 <SpComb> Ammler: screenshots?
20:36:21 <Ammler> SpComb, yes, doesn't work anymore
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20:42:54 <Ammler> :-)
20:46:44 <Ammler> can that start difference from clean trunk be considered as bug? ^
20:47:14 * andythenorth -> beer
20:47:46 <Ammler> again?
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20:53:13 <andythenorth> beer helps
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20:55:35 <Wolf01> 'night
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20:55:42 * andythenorth considers playing the game
20:55:44 <andythenorth> bit weird
20:56:37 <SpComb> go play multiplayer
20:56:42 <SpComb> on some random server
20:58:01 <andythenorth> frosch123: the ship speed patch display isn't committed?
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21:00:27 <frosch123> not yet
21:01:14 <andythenorth> I won't remove the patch yet then :P
21:01:38 * andythenorth has done no science but make run -j6 seems to work with i7
21:02:46 <noclue> if you don't want to play, critique a test save that I've been lurking for days to get someone to comment on how awful my own play style is <-- only reason I'm here
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21:03:22 <frosch123> night
21:03:26 *** frosch123 has quit IRC
21:04:56 <Terkhen> regarding that you might have better luck in the forums
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21:05:47 <noclue> probably involves creating an account and all sorts of things, couldn't be bothered, I shall vanish never to be seen again soon
21:06:15 <Yexo> just lurking here won't get you any reactions
21:06:21 <Yexo> I wouldn't even know where to find said savegame
21:07:08 <noclue> heh well that and I can amuse myself watching some of the development float by
21:09:59 <Yexo> it'd be better to load the big gui grf as static, so you don't force it on anyone loading your save
21:10:10 <Yexo> and openttd_plus is a completely broken and useless grf
21:10:35 <Yexo> you also have two ECS basic vector's loaded
21:11:40 <noclue> it's a mess, by the time I noticed I was into the game
21:12:12 <Yexo> ok, if you're already aware of it than it's fine :)
21:14:01 <andythenorth> hmm
21:14:05 <andythenorth> is it time for bed?
21:14:11 <Yexo> I usually use separate stations to drop and to load cargo
21:14:28 <Yexo> that makes sure that you can have enough trains loading cargo without the risk of them blocking the trains wanting to drop anything
21:15:10 <Yexo> the map is a bit flat for my taste, but that's a personal choice of course :)
21:15:18 <Yexo> overall quite a nice game
21:19:28 <noclue> oh well - thanks, I can go now then, first time downloaded and played in a few years, so long as nobody recoils in horror or thinks station junctions look odd :)
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21:49:54 <Terkhen> good night
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