IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-08-21
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00:07:27 <pjpe> question: is there any limit to the length of trams?
00:17:24 <__ln__> greater than zero
00:17:40 <pjpe> damn
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00:33:06 <pjpe> i'm guessing long
00:33:11 <pjpe> since modern tram set is exactly what i was thinking
00:33:13 <pjpe> longish trams
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00:40:31 <Eddi|zuHause> what kind of limit do you have in mind?
00:40:52 <Eddi|zuHause> trams are fixed units, so the newgrf has full control over their length
00:42:00 <pjpe> well i mean could you have 10 tile length trams
00:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> but only if you use a newgrf that has some
00:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> the length limit is 64 tiles, just like trains
00:42:58 <Eddi|zuHause> only that trams are not affected by platform length
00:43:03 <pjpe> was just wondering if you could have like 3 or 4 tile length trams
00:43:08 <pjpe> instead of the wimpy little looking ones
00:43:10 <Eddi|zuHause> which might be an oversight
00:43:14 <pjpe> but you can with modern tram set!
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03:14:33 <pikka> lalala
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03:24:48 <pikka> hello kk, how goes things?
03:25:20 <KittenKoder> Pretty good, switching OSes now.
03:25:30 <KittenKoder> Ubuntu pissed me off with the last update.
03:25:38 <pikka> oops
03:26:08 <KittenKoder> So going Open Suse/Gentoo
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03:26:38 <KittenKoder> The cool part is that the ATI drivers actually work out of the box this time.
03:26:46 <KittenKoder> No manual tweaking needed.
03:27:38 <KittenKoder> It actually shocked me, I had the websites all pulled up and everything then noticed that Gnome's effects were working ... those only work if the drivers are perfect.
03:28:16 <pikka> sounds good :)
03:28:47 <KittenKoder> So far ... gotta get the more recent stuff updated then we'll see.
03:29:48 <KittenKoder> I tested it all on my laptop first to ....
03:29:55 <KittenKoder> All my computers like Gentoo more ....
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04:59:03 <planetmaker> moin
04:59:32 <pjpe> what's the name of that newgrf that had station tiles like union station
04:59:36 <pjpe> some prolific ones like that
05:13:52 <pikka> poin mlanet
05:21:51 <pjpe> i think it's the us set
05:21:56 <pjpe> and it IS the toronto union station
05:21:59 <pjpe> who would have guessed
05:32:53 <LordAro> mornings
05:34:22 <LordAro> KittenKoder: similarly, i am thinking of switching from ubuntu to debian - everyone seems to say it's better, and ubuntu has beenn annoying me for ages :L
05:34:49 <KittenKoder> Gentoo is really OpenSuse .... LOL
05:34:53 <KittenKoder> I keep forgetting that.
05:35:22 <KittenKoder> But yeah, Ubuntu just pissed me off, too unstable to use Blender 2.59 .....
05:35:41 <KittenKoder> ... and the last update made my desktop glitch on everything.
05:35:45 <Rubidium> gentoo is opensuse? Really? In what sense?
05:36:08 <KittenKoder> I don't know ....
05:36:19 <LordAro> my reason for being annoyed with it is wireless drivers - it still fails to recognise my wireless-n card...
05:36:26 <KittenKoder> Right now I'm so scatter brained so ... no tech questions.
05:36:42 <KittenKoder> If it's a laptop card, don't do OpenSuse ....
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05:37:01 <KittenKoder> Unless you know enough about Linux to do it manually.
05:37:15 <LordAro> nah, standard pci wireless card
05:37:17 <KittenKoder> PCMCIA-whatever cards are not natively supported.
05:37:28 <LordAro> and, no, i don't :)
05:37:33 <KittenKoder> LOL
05:37:58 <KittenKoder> Yeah, I have it on my laptop (now my big desktop to) and I just use USB for everything anyway.
05:38:38 <KittenKoder> One weird thing is the ATI drivers seem to actually work ... didn't have to tweak anything to get them working right with Suse.
05:39:25 <pjpe> that guy who did the us set has some absurdly nice stations not included in the grf
05:39:26 <pjpe>
05:39:27 <pjpe> >:|
05:40:48 <LordAro> the reason you shouldn't convert from a photo (or similar) - the buildinjgs just don't quite look right
05:40:56 <KittenKoder> Those are nice ....
05:41:54 <pjpe> he's even got the justice league terminal
05:43:04 <LordAro> yeah, but look at 'Boston & Providence Station'
05:44:48 <andythenorth> look at toronto :P
05:44:48 <andythenorth> o
05:44:52 <pjpe> well that has it's own problems
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05:44:53 <pjpe> it's big
05:44:53 <pjpe> red
05:44:54 <pjpe> long
05:44:54 <andythenorth> oz was nuts
05:44:55 <pjpe> kinda ugly
05:45:03 <pjpe> what happened to this guy
05:45:20 <LordAro> life, from my understanding
05:45:32 <Rubidium> we did give him the ponies he wanted quickly enough, I guess
05:45:35 <pjpe> fuckin life
05:45:40 <pjpe> that's always the reason
05:46:44 <andythenorth> afaik life happened to oz
05:46:48 <andythenorth> phd or such
05:46:51 <andythenorth> or marriage
05:46:56 <andythenorth> or job
05:46:56 <Rubidium> I don't remember there being grass near Boston's (South) station
05:47:01 <andythenorth> one of those things
05:47:37 <andythenorth> oz was before my time, as was lifeblood
05:48:10 <Rubidium> oh, and maybe also TTDPatch's demise?
05:48:35 <LordAro> is ttdpatch officially dead now then?
05:48:56 <andythenorth> oz != oztrans btw
05:51:33 <andythenorth> so how would the pathfinder ban some ships on rivers?
05:51:35 * andythenorth ponders
05:52:03 <andythenorth> Rubidium: could just make use of prop 14/15?
05:52:09 <Rubidium> LordAro: last trunk commit: over 7 months ago, last beta release: almost 5 years ago, last stable release: almost 8 years ago. You tell me whether that's dead or not
05:52:35 <LordAro> pretty much then
05:52:51 <LordAro> why did they never release a new beta?
05:52:56 <andythenorth> to ban some ships from rivers, newgrf author sets FF for canal speed fraction? Hmm
05:53:14 <andythenorth> LordAro: maybe there's no 'they' ?
05:53:17 <Rubidium> andythenorth: yep, that's the idea. Although they can still go onto rivers... at appaling speeds
05:53:52 <andythenorth> Rubidium: I think it's valid gameplay to differentiate between ocean / rivers / canals
05:54:34 * andythenorth wonders - where are the water tile classes defined?
05:54:43 <planetmaker> var 0x60
05:54:50 * andythenorth explores src
05:55:07 <planetmaker> they're part of the map array when tile is waterclass
05:56:39 <andythenorth> water_cmd.cpp suggests me we have three water classes?
06:00:02 <LordAro> 19:53:34 LordAro hmmm... how can i find position of character in char array? google only shows stuff about c# and std::string... <-- i never did get a sufficient answer... :L - i should have said that i already have the character in question, i just need its position, surely there must be an easier way...
06:00:19 <Rubidium> LordAro: strchr
06:01:12 <LordAro> but i don't (necessarily) want the first instance...or the last
06:02:43 <LordAro> basically, i want the position of that character, and theni want to 'add 1' to it so i get the next character
06:02:51 <Rubidium> then either start again from the position of the last character + 1, or tell what you want on a slightly higher conceptual level
06:03:08 <Rubidium> because you might be trying to do something in a quite ineffecient manner
06:03:15 <LordAro> probably :)
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06:07:23 * LordAro searches the logs to help him explain
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06:09:24 <LordAro> this comment, and a few before, should explain:
06:18:47 <LordAro> <-- problems from server move?
06:23:56 <Rubidium> LordAro: (untested)
06:24:29 <Rubidium> LordAro: unlikely; many people have signed up since the move
06:24:46 <LordAro> thanks for the code :)
06:24:58 <LordAro> many people sem to be having problems though
06:28:24 <Rubidium> you don't want to know the number of "undeliverable mail" notifications we get
06:28:49 <LordAro> :) from people giving fake email addresses?
06:29:40 <Rubidium> mistyping addresses
06:29:44 <Rubidium> full mailboxes
06:29:49 <Rubidium> unreachable servers
06:29:54 <LordAro> or that :L
06:30:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: var 0x60 for land... But there's no equivalent for vehicles?
06:30:26 <andythenorth> I can't see one
06:30:36 <andythenorth> might be unwise anyway
06:30:54 <planetmaker> that's what you have for the ocean_speed_fraction and alike
06:30:56 <planetmaker> properties
06:31:21 * andythenorth wonders how that interacts with cb36
06:31:38 <planetmaker> :-) who knows
06:31:51 <planetmaker> probably those who can read code
06:31:56 <andythenorth> as prop 14 / 15 have *never* been supported by ottd afaik...
06:32:03 <andythenorth> might be better to keep it that way?
06:32:10 <andythenorth> and use cb36 only to set speed
06:35:24 <planetmaker> they are already supported...
06:35:31 <planetmaker> but... hm... maybe
06:35:42 <planetmaker> conceptually that sounds better to me
06:35:53 <planetmaker> the cb approach
06:36:36 <andythenorth> I don't know how often cb36 is called for speed
06:36:45 <andythenorth> I use it in FISH
06:37:24 <planetmaker> not very often
06:37:50 <andythenorth> hmm
06:37:53 <planetmaker> iirc only in depots, in stations(?) and on railtype change
06:38:09 <andythenorth> it's definitely called in stations
06:38:56 <andythenorth> prop 14 / 15 are fractions, so maybe it's fine to use them
06:39:43 <andythenorth> I liked the idea of allowing ocean ships inland via canal
06:40:07 <andythenorth> but maybe that's not important
06:42:52 <LordAro> Rubidium: how would i use a SmallVector? (i'd grep source code, but... windows...)
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06:45:24 <planetmaker> if it doesn't work: use the proper tools. If the proper tools don't work: use the proper OS
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06:46:55 <LordAro> proper tools + proper OS = no internet
06:47:14 <Rubidium> virtualbox!
06:48:26 <planetmaker> lol... I'm sure any somewhat recent OS allows network usage
06:49:18 <LordAro> *no internet due to parents :/
06:49:50 <planetmaker> eh :S
06:50:14 <planetmaker> but still, there's a couple people using linux in a virtual box environment
06:50:25 <planetmaker> quite successfully :-)
06:50:39 * andythenorth ponders upgrading FISH for rivers + cargo aging
06:50:45 <andythenorth> but....bbl
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06:51:13 <Kurosawy> Hi
06:51:15 <LordAro> planetmaker: i can't see myself installing virtualbox on this machine either
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06:51:40 <LordAro> a) no admin b) takes ages!
06:52:39 <planetmaker> I'm sure your parents would be interested in you doing "real work" instead of gaming. Try to sell it to them that way :-)
06:52:53 <planetmaker> it wouldn't be a lie either :-)
06:52:57 <LordAro> been trying for years :)
06:53:08 <LordAro> nothing works anymore :L
06:53:23 <planetmaker> shall I write them? ;-)
06:53:37 <LordAro> if you want :)
06:54:45 <LordAro> any argument i use just comes back with "you spend too much time on it"
06:54:57 <planetmaker> he :-)
06:55:35 <LordAro> re: virtualbox: it doesn't work on win2k :L
06:55:56 <pjpe> there's someone out there still using windows 2000?
06:56:00 <planetmaker> I could certainly write a few sentences which explain that it might be a good thing to allow you use linux :-)
06:56:04 <LordAro> oh yes
06:56:07 <pjpe> jesus
06:56:09 <planetmaker> I probably should not argue about time ;-)
06:56:16 <LordAro> :)
06:56:51 <LordAro> xp is 'too modern', plus my mum would flip if anything changed
06:57:14 <planetmaker> uhm... "too modern"? w2k is not supported anymore. It's becoming a security thread
06:57:17 <planetmaker> *threat
06:57:27 <LordAro> dad still uses 'classic' theme (start menu and stuff) on vista and 7 machines
06:57:33 <pjpe> hell windows xp is probably going to be dropped soon
06:58:22 <LordAro> planetmaker: thats what i keep telling him, but.. see the second part that message
06:58:35 <LordAro> mum isn't very good with technology
06:58:59 <planetmaker> :-) I have such parents, too. It's difficult to teach them new 'tricks'
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06:59:35 <LordAro> "isn't very good" = takes 1/2 hour to explain how to use digital tv(!) and then she forgets the next day
07:01:01 <LordAro> its... frustrating
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07:08:36 <Rubidium> LordAro: then you should be the admin on that box ;)
07:09:07 <pjpe> oh wait
07:09:13 <pjpe> windows 2000 passwords are easy to crack
07:09:15 <pjpe> apparently
07:09:24 <pjpe> just remembered
07:09:29 <LordAro> really? do tell :)#
07:09:55 <pjpe>,or.r_gc.r_pw.&fp=f539a33a7cf2ea29&biw=990&bih=783&ion=1
07:10:35 <pjpe> i don't remember if they had some vulnerability that you can use or if they just didn't salt the hashes
07:10:39 <pjpe> but either way it should be easy
07:10:43 * LordAro laughs evilly :)
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07:12:32 <LordAro> of course, i don't want to change the password, otherwise they'll know, fairly instantly
07:13:11 <pjpe> find out their password
07:13:11 <pjpe> go in
07:13:12 <Rubidium> just give your account admin privileges
07:13:14 <pjpe> change your account to admin
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07:14:18 <LordAro> that... would be fairly undetectable :)
07:14:40 <Rubidium> ? :)
07:15:05 <pjpe> there was some way to get in to windows 98 without logging in
07:15:08 <pjpe> through some weird use of
07:15:13 <pjpe> the help
07:15:17 <pjpe> then opening a file
07:15:23 <pjpe> then somehow launching explorer.exe?
07:16:22 <Rubidium> just hit escape in the login screen?
07:16:29 <pjpe> maybe that
07:16:38 <Rubidium> or remove the .pwl files from the dos prompt
07:16:59 <Rubidium> I wouldn't even dare to call it security by obscurity
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07:19:29 <LordAro> Rubidium: i'll be sure to try the xp thing out at school, but it doesn't work here
07:19:47 <Rubidium> too bad
07:25:23 <LordAro> (from video cam of alaska anyone? :)
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07:38:55 <andythenorth> Rubidium: are you going to mention rivers in forums? Or wait for people to figure it out? :)
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07:43:31 <LordAro> Rubidium:i'm still not sure how i would use small vector (after your code) in the context of DrawString
07:50:53 <Rubidium> LordAro: see a SmallVector as an array
07:51:41 <Rubidium> which means you can do lines[i]
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07:51:51 <LordAro> oh good :)
07:51:52 <Rubidium> lines.Length() gives you the length of the array
07:52:04 * LordAro worships
07:52:10 <LordAro> hai Alberth
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07:52:21 <Alberth> hi LordAro, Rubidium
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08:12:21 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:17:47 <Ammler> morning-ning
08:18:35 <planetmaker> moin Alberth, Ammler, Terkhen :-)
08:19:12 <Alberth> moin planetmaker, Terkhen, Ammler
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08:38:08 <LordAro> Alberth: <-- care to elaborate?
08:38:33 <Alberth> in which way?
08:39:32 <Alberth> ie what do you want to know?
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08:48:44 <Wolf01> suuuunday morning
08:52:31 <peter1138> bit velvety
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09:06:37 <LordAro> Alberth: "...done a little ground work already..." <-- i.e. what have you done? :)
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09:15:15 <Alberth> thought about the global structure of the program (what parts exist, what part does what, how does it make steps in time); thought about global data structure of the grid that describes the world (what can you put in each cell, how many bits do you need); created some temp sprites for the world earth surface and a ride (not near the quality of the real game, but good enough to start); made a dump of things you might want to have available in th
09:15:37 <Alberth> no real code yet, thus also no screen shots or moving parts :p
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09:16:34 <LordAro> shame :)
09:16:49 <LordAro> but... thanks for info
09:17:20 <Rubidium> oh, so like the window system about a year or so before it was done? ;)
09:18:07 <Alberth> Rubidium: but that was much smaller, and I had a working code base to work against
09:18:28 <Alberth> although the latter was a challenge in its own, sometimes :)
09:24:57 <Alberth> LordAro: there is literally nothing, so you first have to make a global picture of how to put it together, before you can start coding and have a chance of getting it working
09:25:08 <LordAro> makes sense
09:26:19 <Alberth> and the big question of course is, when have you done enough? :p
09:27:48 <LordAro> when you get bored/can't think of anything else?
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09:30:35 <Alberth> only the latter :) when I get bored, I stop working on it, and continue another time.
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09:41:11 <__ln__>
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10:55:08 <Eddi|zuHause> what if you start from openttd and rip out the map array/replace it with a 3D array?
10:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> at least you have a complete viewport/gui then
10:55:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and some rough game mechanics (tick progression, etc.)
10:56:07 <Eddi|zuHause> of course you inherit lots of the limitations as well
10:57:08 <Alberth> actual code is usually not the problem, the real problem is in the design
10:57:31 <Alberth> and of course you can borrow blobs of code :)
10:58:44 <Alberth> but tim wanted to do gui, so that's out of my hands :) probably good, as I already know how that works, so it'd be very boring
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11:40:18 <Zuu> There actually is a flag for when an aircraft is in holding (AMED_HOLD), I just never se it being set :-p
11:42:59 <Zuu> In my first test runnig an aircraft between two airports, the aircraft have flag = 5 (dec) when it is in air (but also on ground at the runway-strip). value 5 (decimal) => AMED_SLOWTURN & AMED_NOSPDCLAMP
11:44:16 <andythenorth> frosch123: prop 14 / 15 would be the least hassle to use
11:44:28 <andythenorth> it's a question of ship set design...
11:44:39 <Rubidium> I think there's only one airport with holding pattern
11:44:58 <andythenorth> it would be interesting to keep ocean ships out of rivers by setting their speed very low
11:45:24 <andythenorth> but this would be annoying when building a canal between pieces of sea
11:46:16 <andythenorth> otoh, to connect two pieces of sea, just lower land to sea level - good enough solution
11:46:36 <Zuu> Hmm, on a faster plane it actually uses the holding state :-s
11:46:59 <andythenorth> could the values of prop 14 / 15 be shown in buy menu please?
11:47:05 <Zuu> Rubidium: How do you mean only one airport?
11:49:01 <Zuu> Aircrafts circle all airport types. Or do you mean that internally one airport have the circle-blocks coded specially as holding pattern?
11:49:15 <Rubidium> only the city airport has AMED_HOLD
11:50:11 <Zuu> Oh, then that's why my later test with a city airport worked but not with the small airport.
11:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it was the only one updated with sensible holding patterns, afair
11:52:34 <Zuu> So.. I might end up having to dig into the state machines of all other airports than the city ariport :-)
11:52:35 <Alberth> andythenorth: but if a ship is not supposed to travel a canal, then it being slow would be fine imo
11:52:52 <andythenorth> I think it's fine too
11:52:57 <andythenorth> I was thinking about ship canals
11:53:00 <andythenorth> but screw that :P
11:53:08 <Alberth> Zuu: to find what
11:53:29 <Zuu> I want to implement Aircraft::IsInHolding and export that to AIs.
11:53:42 <Rubidium> just use AMED_HOLD ;)
11:53:52 <Rubidium> and give the other airports proper holding circles as well
11:54:01 <Rubidium> s/circles/patterns/
11:54:06 <Zuu> Indeed :-)
11:54:31 <Zuu> At least the state machine blocks are all commented.
11:55:05 <Alberth> hmm, I am trying to extract holding pattern out of airports :(
11:55:19 <Zuu> It might as well be possible to via code enter the FTA at all entry points and iterate until you find wher it can enter landing.
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11:55:39 <Zuu> Alberth: You too?
11:56:08 <blathijs> Hmm, did automatic servicing get disabled in recent versions or something?
11:56:22 <andythenorth> blathijs: usually a pathfinder issue
11:56:24 <andythenorth> trains?
11:56:27 <Alberth> entry points go to holding patterns before finding landing spots
11:56:47 <blathijs> While testing my new 1.1.2 Debian package, I got carried away with actually playing the game again, but trains are not getting serviced it eems
11:56:50 <blathijs> andythenorth: yup
11:57:02 <andythenorth> blathijs: you're probably using PBS signals
11:57:13 <andythenorth> try putting a PBS signal on the tile before the depot entrance
11:57:16 <andythenorth> usually helps
11:57:27 <Rubidium> blathijs: screenshot?
11:57:28 <blathijs> andythenorth: I did that
11:57:29 <andythenorth> otherwise you just have to use forced 'goto depot' orders
11:57:30 <Alberth> s/putting/removing/ !
11:57:36 <andythenorth> or turn off breakdowns
11:57:42 <blathijs> Ah, removing
11:57:42 <Zuu> Alberth: Before finding out about the AMED_HOLD flag, I though that I would have to iterate through the FTA to find out the holding pattern (unless adding a counter variable)
11:57:42 <blathijs> hmm
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11:57:58 <Alberth> and turn on servicing even if breakdowns enabled
11:58:25 * andythenorth used forced serving orders for a bit, then got bored and disabled breakdowns
11:58:32 <Alberth> *disabled, even
11:58:38 <andythenorth> RVs have the same issue
11:58:51 <andythenorth> and servicing can result in stuck ships as well
11:59:38 <Alberth> Zuu: holding pattern is not more than a few points in the sky that point to each other, where the landing entry starts at one (or more) of those points if the aircraft can claim the block with the runway
11:59:43 * andythenorth wonders where the frac column is in opengfx
11:59:44 <Rubidium> blathijs: vehicles have a maximum pathfinder distance to depot for considering. Going through a path signal the wrong way is usually higher than the penalty you may have to go to the depot
12:00:22 <blathijs> Rubidium: Ah, right
12:00:33 <blathijs> Rubidium: Placing some extra depots might help as well, then
12:00:46 <LordAro> feature request: configurable holding patterns :)
12:01:05 <Alberth> Zuu: extracting holding pattern as in moving it out of the airport state machine
12:01:06 <Zuu> Alberth: Yes, and I've found out that those points are commented very well in airport_movement.h.
12:01:26 <Zuu> Oh, I see.
12:01:43 <Rubidium> actually, the idea of holding patterns is that planes come in high and fast and descent and slow down into the holding pattern
12:01:57 <blathijs> Ok, removing the path signals as well as placing extra depots seem to have helped
12:02:00 <blathijs> thanks
12:02:25 <Alberth> that saves us the 5th bug report about it :)
12:02:59 <andythenorth> removing the path signal? :o
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12:03:21 * andythenorth usually has to add them
12:03:36 <Alberth> yep, adding blocks in front of depots can only cause trouble
12:03:40 <andythenorth> hmm
12:03:51 <andythenorth> I usually have trains reserving a path past the depot
12:03:55 <Rubidium> I think andy means another location
12:04:13 <andythenorth> without screenshots, this is probably a silly conversation :)
12:04:37 <Rubidium> you have precisely in front of the depot: so one straight track with signal in front of the depot, or as close as possible to the junction to the depot
12:04:49 <Rubidium> the former is 'wrong', the latter is 'good'
12:05:20 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: that happens when the signal is too far before the switch to depot. once the path is reserved, it cannot be changed anymore
12:05:54 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22781 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Group global variables temporarily used during GRF loading into a struct.
12:06:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22782 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix: Add GrfProcessingState::ClearDataForNextFile() to clear temporary data at a specific spot, esp. clear 'data_blocks' now.
12:06:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22783 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Fix: Move Action 1 references from GRFFile to GrfProcessingState, and reset them after each loading stage.
12:07:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22784 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf.h): -Fix: Move Action 2 references from GRFFile to GrfProcessingState, and reset them after each loading stage.
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12:11:37 <Zuu> Hmm, aircrafts that take off from the country airport visit one of the blocks that are used also ni the holding pattern :-)
12:12:13 <Zuu> Resulting in an aircraft that has AMED_HOLD when flying in open air..
12:13:16 <Zuu> But maybe I should wait and let Alberth solve the issue :-D
12:14:04 <Alberth> which block is that? after block 9 the aircraft leaves
12:14:14 <Zuu> I would guess #17
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12:15:54 <Zuu> It get AMED_HOLD just when it ends taking off. (I've added AMED_HOLD to 15, 16, 17 and 18)
12:16:34 <Alberth> that seems right, but how do you reach #17 at take off?
12:17:20 <Zuu> hmm, I now start to believe it gets the AMED_HOLD flag from the other airport insetad.
12:17:49 <Zuu> Eg. the entry point of an airport should not have the hold flag, or perhaps the aircraft get this flag when heading to the airport.
12:19:05 <Alberth> makes somewhat sense. Unfortunately, I don't yet know exactly when which flag gets applied where
12:19:28 * andythenorth ponders sugar
12:20:22 * Zuu pounders coffe
12:21:32 <Alberth> coffee with sugar is more drinkable than sugar with coffee
12:22:33 <Rubidium> in any case it's tasting awful
12:23:37 * Alberth nods
12:23:37 <Zuu> Indeed, better just keep the coffee black or add some milk
12:23:50 <planetmaker> black is beautiful and tasty ;-)
12:32:01 <Ammler> I like to have one blob of milk just for the color :-)
12:32:18 <Zuu> I do that sometimes too
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12:33:05 <Ammler> but please no sugar :-)
12:36:50 <andythenorth> FIRS has sugar cane and sugar beet
12:36:58 <andythenorth> which are one cargo with a string swapped in tropic
12:37:01 <andythenorth> which is...messy
12:37:18 <andythenorth> should I (a) make it two cargos (they need to be handled differently by vehicles anyway)
12:37:24 <andythenorth> or (b) make it 'Raw Sugar'
12:38:17 <planetmaker> Why is it messy?
12:38:32 <andythenorth> it's an arse to maintain
12:38:40 <andythenorth> and the vehicle support is silly
12:38:48 <andythenorth> sugar cane is handled quite differently to sugar beet
12:38:59 <andythenorth> realism is not at all important, except when it is
12:39:53 <Rubidium> just make them different cargos
12:40:08 <andythenorth> now would be a good time to do that
12:40:23 <Rubidium> possibly mostly the same, so sharing the ID, and enabled based on the climate
12:40:35 <andythenorth> but with different label
12:40:49 <Rubidium> same internal ID, not the label ofcourse
12:40:53 <andythenorth> currently they both share RSGR
12:42:00 <planetmaker> urgs... different cargos. Why? Just another hassle for vehicles
12:42:46 <planetmaker> Do they really need different vehicle support?
12:43:11 <andythenorth> do we really need any of this? :P
12:44:01 <andythenorth> We break ECS labels currently, and offer vehicle set author no way out of it other than to detect FIRS and offer climate specific vehicles
12:44:36 <andythenorth> which is wrong
12:44:50 <planetmaker> hm, yes
12:45:07 <planetmaker> ok, go right ahead then. Somewhat convinced
12:45:38 <Hirundo> Does ECS have RSGR too? (not acc wiki)
12:45:58 <Hirundo> "RSGR Raw Sugar 0010 Bulk FIRS Sugar cane in tropic, sugar beet in other climates "
12:46:16 <andythenorth> I mean ECS as MB means ECS (ish)
12:46:38 <Hirundo> MB ECS has only one cargo type (yet): vapor
12:46:44 <andythenorth> hmm
12:46:46 <andythenorth> well
12:46:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22785 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: rename IsGeneratingWorld to HasModalProgress
12:46:56 * andythenorth goes back to drawing
12:47:15 <frosch123> andythenorth:
12:47:24 * andythenorth stops drawing :P
12:47:26 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22786 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp gfx.cpp openttd.cpp): -Codechange: rename genworld mutices to model_progress mutices
12:47:27 <frosch123> displays the info in purchase screen
12:47:34 <frosch123> the vehicle gui always shows the current limit
12:47:44 <frosch123> the info is currently not available to ais
12:47:47 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22787 /trunk/src/ (genworld.h genworld_gui.cpp gfx.cpp): -Codechange: rename genworld redraw constant
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12:48:15 <frosch123> exposing the waterclass to cb36 in the purchase list likely means trouble
12:48:30 <frosch123> there is only one sort-order in the purchase list for speed
12:48:34 <andythenorth> ok
12:48:37 <frosch123> not per ocean/canal
12:48:47 <andythenorth> setting a prop is easier than footling with varaction 2 anyway
12:48:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22788 /trunk/ (15 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: move modal progress related functions and variables to progress.cpp/h
12:49:16 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22789 /trunk/src/ (genworld.cpp genworld_gui.cpp window_type.h): -Codechange: rename generation window class to modal progress
12:49:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22790 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_config.cpp newgrf_config.h): -Codechange: add callback for when NewGRF scanning is complete
12:50:07 <andythenorth> sugar cane moves like this, sugar beet less so:
12:50:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22791 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Codechange: use callback for scanning from the NewGRF window
12:50:37 <andythenorth> also this:
12:50:49 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22792 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: use scan callback for initial NewGRF scanning
12:51:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22793 /trunk/src/ (3 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: remove callback default to make clear they are not forgotten
12:51:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22794 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Codechange: let window drawing determine which windows may be drawn when a modal progress is busy
12:51:55 <andythenorth> frosch123: does it only display if prop 14 & 15 are set?
12:52:10 <andythenorth> that would make sense...
12:52:10 <frosch123> only when the values are different
12:52:13 <andythenorth> k
12:52:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22795 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Codechange: load the intro game the first time without NewGRFs
12:53:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22796 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Codechange: run the NewGRF scanning in a separate thread
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12:53:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22797 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 3 dirs): -Add: progress bar for scanning NewGRFs
12:53:26 <planetmaker> that's actually a feature ;-)
12:53:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22798 /trunk/src/gfx.cpp: -Change: jump immediately to the next mode after scanning (if needed)
12:53:43 <frosch123> poor eddi gets totally spammed with commit messages :p
12:53:52 <andythenorth> hmm
12:54:00 <planetmaker> hu, @ frosch123?
12:54:13 <andythenorth> so it's incumbent on me as newgrf author not to set prop 14 as FF
12:54:16 <LordAro> rubidium: @r22795 - does that mean any savegame can be loaded, regardless of newgrfs?
12:54:16 <frosch123> planetmaker: he complained yesterday, that there are too many commits this weekend
12:54:25 <planetmaker> oh
12:54:29 <andythenorth> if ship prop 14 is FF we shall all have a lot of fun bug reports
12:54:34 <planetmaker> poor guy.
12:54:58 <LordAro> planetmaker: ^ i was thinkng the exact same thing :)
12:55:12 <frosch123> andythenorth: i wonder whether prop 14/15 make actually any sense
12:55:28 <andythenorth> frosch123: / anyone - would it make sense to floor ship speed at 1mph irrespective of prop 14
12:55:30 <frosch123> is there any case were you would not set them to basically "yes" or "no"?
12:55:37 <andythenorth> yes
12:55:54 <andythenorth> quite plausible that speed might vary
12:56:09 <frosch123> ok, you are the english one :)
12:56:12 <andythenorth> depends on hull design
12:56:30 <frosch123> what do you mean with "floor ship speed"?
12:56:45 <andythenorth> max(speed,1)
12:56:57 <frosch123> well, i hope that is already done :p
12:57:00 <andythenorth> setting speed to 0mph results in stuck ships and no way to fix it
12:57:05 <andythenorth> it isn't done
12:57:06 <andythenorth> :P
12:57:29 <Rubidium> LordAro: no, if it were with NewGRFs it will still be horribly broken
12:57:37 <andythenorth> anyway - if you set boats to 'rivers only' they will be useless where rivers turn into lakes
12:57:54 <andythenorth> already the griefing opportunities for ships will be quite significant
12:58:08 <andythenorth> (those are unrelated points)
12:58:10 <planetmaker> :-) building canal on the sea... lovely
12:58:30 <andythenorth> harder now that build-while-paused is gone
12:58:42 <planetmaker> it's not gone
12:58:48 <planetmaker> it's just a setting
12:58:53 <planetmaker> not a cheat
12:58:59 <andythenorth> :)
12:59:50 <Zuu> a setting that can now be set to allow everything when paused
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13:10:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22799 /trunk/src/openttd.cpp: -Fix (r22792): compile failure when there is no networking support
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13:19:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22800 /trunk/src/newgrf_config.cpp: -Fix (r22796): don't run the scanning threaded when there is no reason to do so (no UI to update)
13:19:37 <LordAro> yay! r22.8k :)
13:20:43 <Rubidium> we should do a bananas download party every 10M, that'd be much more parties
13:20:54 <Rubidium> ~34.8M at the moment
13:22:09 <LordAro> mingw is soooo slow...
13:23:42 <andythenorth> please please can we have 1 or 2 tile locks?
13:23:46 <andythenorth> 1 tile might be a bit easy
13:23:55 <andythenorth> 2 tile could be...interesting
13:24:03 <andythenorth> would it cause epic savegame breakage?
13:24:32 <LordAro> not if the original lock was kept :)
13:28:13 <andythenorth> also - can lock be allowed to overbuild river, without requiring bulldozer
13:30:31 * andythenorth thinks of an extension to station names
13:30:41 <andythenorth> do we have 'lakeside' and 'riverside' and 'waterside'?
13:30:57 <frosch123> andythenorth: ships do not drive upwards 50% slopes
13:31:12 <andythenorth> meh
13:31:27 <andythenorth> realism is invoked when it suits :P
13:31:58 <frosch123> build winding canals if you really have to use ships in such landscape :p
13:32:20 <frosch123> mind that ships do not change speed in locks
13:32:32 <appe> there is something special with playing openttd whilst riding a train.
13:32:34 <andythenorth> it basically renders rivers useless without a lot of money in the bank
13:32:35 <frosch123> so if you can pass a hill as if there is nothing, ships are totally imbalanced
13:33:27 <andythenorth> the need to canalise most of a river renders them kind of pointless, which is sad
13:33:45 <andythenorth> on the plus side, the game is now compliant with the original image of temperate climate in new game menu
13:35:42 <Hirundo> balance-wise, canals should be the one and only long-range bulk transportation system in the early game
13:36:20 <andythenorth> "navigable rivers + coastal shipping" would be a more accurate claim :P
13:36:41 <andythenorth> or is that too easy wrt building infrastructure?
13:36:42 <Hirundo> Even if you'd need to invest a 100-200k GBP to build a few locks, it's still pretty awesome, methinks
13:36:47 <Hirundo> as it has unlimited capacity
13:37:35 <Hirundo> If you need 100 horse carriages to do the same, the running cost of those adds up pretty quickly
13:38:20 * Hirundo ponders starting the next FIRS game early
13:38:30 <frosch123> well, maybe riverslopes should be passable unless there are two in a row or so?
13:39:55 <Hirundo> that'd get confusing fairly quickly, I think
13:40:04 <frosch123> yeah :(
13:40:20 <Hirundo> rather, we should have newgrf ship ports that don't require so much terraforming and canal-building
13:48:41 <andythenorth> frosch123: a 2 tile lock instead of 3 tiles would be sufficient
13:48:45 <andythenorth> it can still be expensive
13:48:54 <andythenorth> and you wouldn't be able to go up long slopes with them
13:48:59 <andythenorth> even though that's unrealistic :P
13:52:17 <andythenorth>
13:52:20 <andythenorth>
13:53:06 <andythenorth> looks...great no?
13:53:18 <andythenorth> for definitions where 'great' == 'sucks' :P
13:54:34 <__ln__> the water doesn't clearly show slopes
13:54:50 <andythenorth> I would put money on the docks being 3 tiles long for ttdp reasons
13:55:19 <andythenorth> there is no good gameplay reason for it
14:01:51 <frosch123> sure there is
14:01:55 <frosch123> and you should use longer rivers
14:03:40 <Hirundo> Doing shipping on such rivers isn't 'realistic' anyways
14:05:09 <frosch123> yeah, not every river is suitable for transportation
14:05:19 <frosch123> and i think that is completely fine
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14:10:28 * andythenorth ponders making FIRS locate industries near to rivers
14:11:27 <michi_cc> The river width (in tiles) could be gradually increased toward the sink, gives a more "realistic" look and better shipping opportunities.
14:11:31 <andythenorth> also - how to get longer rivers?
14:13:24 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22801 /trunk/src/ (pathfinder/yapf/yapf_ship.cpp ship.h ship_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [YAPF] Take canal/ocean speed fraction of ships into account.
14:19:44 <andythenorth>
14:19:50 <andythenorth>
14:19:54 <andythenorth> votes please ^^
14:20:38 <LordAro> no. 2
14:21:27 <__ln__> agreed, number 2 seems like a more concrete option
14:22:01 <lugo> i think no.2 is the more solid choice
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14:23:29 <Rubidium> maybe some muddy tracks on #2?
14:23:34 <andythenorth> yeah
14:23:38 <andythenorth> probably
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14:55:55 * andythenorth will have to stop avoiding nml soon :P
14:59:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22802 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Fix (r22781): Coding style.
14:59:54 <Ammler> hehe, do your "slaves" code too bad?
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16:00:50 <Alberth> he's running out of 'please code this for me' coupons ;)
16:01:05 <planetmaker> :-P
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16:02:18 <fjb> Moin
16:02:55 <andythenorth> there are coupons?
16:02:58 <andythenorth> :o
16:05:01 <planetmaker> yup. They're called cookies and cake
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16:10:28 <SmatZ> :)
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16:48:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22803 /trunk/src/window.cpp: -Fix (r22796): clicking should not work either when hiding windows
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17:35:25 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> exposing the waterclass to cb36 in the purchase list likely means trouble <-- water class should be handled the same way as tracktype, maybe.
17:36:21 <planetmaker> that's what I thought, too
17:36:31 <planetmaker> it is a tracktype after all of some sorts
17:36:41 <planetmaker> but... the *speed_fraction is there now...
17:36:57 <planetmaker> and of course these ideas only come up when the deed is done ;-)
17:37:11 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: yup, thus exposing it in the purchase list is as hard as exposing the tracktype
17:39:05 <frosch123> stating from issues like what to report when no depot is at hand (available vehicle list, newspaper, engine preview), to pure coding issues like passing a depottile to tones of Engine member functions which currently know nothing about depots
17:39:43 <frosch123> and the list continues with pathfinder issues, noai issues ,...
17:40:30 <frosch123> i guess doing r22801 with cb36 is kind of impossible
17:42:36 <andythenorth> leave it be :P
17:42:48 <andythenorth> prop 14/15 are sufficient
17:43:32 <andythenorth> there are bigger fish to fry
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17:44:47 * andythenorth finally got around to improving sugar refinery:
17:45:30 <alluke> well done
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22804 /trunk/src/lang/ (11 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed)
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 3 changes by Rubidium
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: french - 3 changes by glx
17:45:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 3 changes by planetmaker
17:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: lithuanian - 13 changes by vytulis7
17:45:46 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: persian - 182 changes by Peymanpn
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18:12:18 <blathijs> Damn, I forgot how addictive OpenTTD was
18:12:43 <blathijs> I just wanted to test my Debian package to see if it ran succesfully, but I've been playing all day...
18:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> haha :)
18:12:58 * planetmaker hugs blathijs :-)
18:13:28 <planetmaker> at least you now know (again) why you're still in this channel :-P
18:14:17 <blathijs> indeed
18:14:18 * andythenorth ponders
18:14:34 <blathijs> Hadn't really played OpenTTD for a few years, I think
18:14:36 <andythenorth> trying to locate industries near rivers is likely to lead to long map gen times :(
18:14:38 <blathijs> so much has changed :-)
18:16:22 <Hirundo> andythenorth: near rivers or near water?
18:16:27 <andythenorth> near rivers
18:16:36 <Rubidium> blathijs: that at least proves it works in some cases
18:16:58 <Hirundo> afaik (old?) ECS shipyard needed placement in towns and near water
18:17:07 <Hirundo> that industry was often not placed at all :)
18:17:27 <Hirundo> near rivers may not work when river generation is not enabled
18:17:37 <andythenorth> indeed
18:17:47 <andythenorth> Rubidium: the river generator gets awesome results on a flat landscape
18:17:57 <andythenorth> proper river systems with tributaries etc
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18:19:32 <planetmaker> Hirundo: FIRS fishing harbours also need town vicinity + water. But it works
18:20:08 <planetmaker> andythenorth: wrt placement of water grain mills: I'd not force that explicitly. E.g. such industries always also should have layouts which work w/o river requirements as they can't be guarateed to be present
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18:20:22 <planetmaker> but if there are such layouts, they'll spawn in swampy conditions
18:20:51 <Hirundo> ship yards needed to be in a specific town zone IIRC, how does it work for harbours?
18:21:46 <planetmaker> 16 tiles within town centre or so
18:21:57 <planetmaker> no zoning
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18:22:23 <planetmaker> hm.. or 56. Dunno anymore. Some arbitrary number
18:22:59 <Ackmey> Hey all, how do I get my airport to take goods from the refinery that's next to it?
18:23:35 <Eddi|zuHause> by sending a vehicle that loads them
18:24:06 <Ackmey> So I have to have an oil truck move back and forth between the airport and the refinery?
18:24:23 <Eddi|zuHause> oil trucks won't load goods
18:24:38 <Alberth> if the airport is not in the range of the refinery, yes
18:24:39 <Ackmey> transport truck or w/e, rather
18:24:50 <Ackmey> The airport is in range though, they're right next to each other
18:24:54 <Ackmey> one tile away
18:25:55 <Ackmey> It accepts oil for the refinery
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18:26:07 <Ackmey> But can't take goods
18:26:24 <Eddi|zuHause> if you don't have anything that loads goods, no goods will appear
18:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (also, if you have no oil, no goods will appear either)
18:28:54 <Ackmey> I do have oil
18:29:29 <planetmaker> delivered to it?
18:29:51 <LordAro> in confusing cases such as this, a savegame is usually requested
18:30:58 <Ackmey> Yes it's getting oil and producing goods but nothing happens to the goods
18:31:50 <planetmaker> then just start to pick them up from a station which has the refinery in its catchment area
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18:32:17 <Ackmey> Yeah I managed to get a truck to pick the goods up
18:32:20 <andythenorth> so
18:32:23 <Ackmey> but I need to get them to the airport
18:32:32 <andythenorth> how to get a map with some steep mountains + some flat plains?
18:32:39 <andythenorth> variety distribution doesn't do that
18:32:50 <andythenorth> variety distribution is a bit bollocks in my experience :P
18:32:52 <LordAro> Ackmey: transfer and leave empty
18:33:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Ackmey: so what's supposed to happen with them at the airport'?
18:33:43 <Ackmey> The truck only interfaces with truck stops though so all I can do now is move my goods from one stop to the next
18:33:53 <Ackmey> and at the airport a refitted plane would pick them up and deliver to a city
18:34:09 <Eddi|zuHause> so where is your refitted plane now?
18:34:25 <Ackmey> In the airport
18:34:34 <Ackmey> Okay I had the truck on deliver instead of transfer
18:34:35 <Eddi|zuHause> and you are sure it is refitted?
18:34:39 <Ackmey> don't know what the difference is
18:35:02 <Ackmey> Yep plane gives me capacity in goods
18:36:09 <Ackmey> so I have a bunch of goods in a truck station right next to the airport.
18:36:36 <planetmaker> is it the same station?
18:36:47 <planetmaker> not two separate ones?
18:36:52 <LordAro> savegame...
18:36:57 <Ackmey> two seperate ones
18:37:03 <Ackmey> I'll upload my savegame somewhere
18:37:25 <andythenorth> :)
18:38:38 <Ackmey> Where does the game save to by default?
18:39:05 <Ackmey> NVM
18:39:06 <planetmaker> ~/Documents/OpenTTD/save
18:39:13 <planetmaker> but might be unhelpful
18:39:43 <Ackmey>
18:39:53 <Ackmey> My first game, don't judge me harshly :P
18:39:56 <Ackmey> Area is
18:40:10 <Ackmey> Plunbourne
18:40:12 <Ackmey> in the east
18:41:41 * andythenorth ponders new station name suffixes
18:41:50 <andythenorth> "...Falls"
18:41:55 <andythenorth> "....Riverside"
18:42:03 <andythenorth> "...Bridge"
18:42:17 <andythenorth> "...Waterside"
18:44:17 <pjpe> Downs
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18:44:39 <andythenorth> not so river related :P
18:44:49 <planetmaker> Creak
18:44:56 <andythenorth> Swamp
18:45:03 <andythenorth> Ford
18:45:05 <planetmaker> Gorge
18:45:10 <andythenorth> Springs
18:45:15 <planetmaker> Wells
18:45:26 <Eddi|zuHause> confluence
18:45:32 <andythenorth> Watersmeet
18:45:48 <planetmaker> Mouth
18:45:51 <andythenorth> -on-the-water
18:45:52 <Eddi|zuHause> (compare: Koblenz)
18:46:07 <andythenorth> if only irc was code :P
18:46:13 <LordAro> Ackmey: i do not understand why you have put a road vehicle route in. all you need is a plane (refitted to goods) going from the airport to another
18:46:25 <Ackmey> That's what I was doing before
18:46:35 <Ackmey> It wasn't taking goods
18:47:17 <LordAro> oh, and to transfer goods they need to be the same station (no tile in between)
18:47:43 <LordAro> currently, your road vehicle route is taking all the goods
18:48:04 <Ackmey> But before I put the road route in
18:48:10 <Ackmey> It didn't work
18:48:43 <LordAro> got your problem: with the plane, Plunbourne Cross Airport order is set to 'unload and leave empty'
18:49:03 <andythenorth> "...Ferry"
18:49:19 <Ackmey> Gahhh stupid me
18:49:21 <Ackmey> Thanks
18:49:34 <andythenorth> "...Crossing"
18:49:43 <Ackmey> Can I destroy all the truck stuff?
18:50:16 <Chrill> yes!
18:50:27 <Chrill> DESTROY ALL THE STUFF!
18:50:39 <LordAro> Ackmey: regarding your orders in general: you don't need to add 'unload and take cargo' stuff - usually, you only need those for more complex routes
18:50:47 <andythenorth> hmm
18:50:50 <andythenorth> named rivers?
18:50:54 <LordAro> the vehicles can usually work out when to load/unload by themselves
18:51:03 <LordAro> andythenorth: use signs :P
18:51:13 <andythenorth> why can't the game use signs for me?
18:51:13 <Ackmey> so I can just point them to destinations and let them do it?
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18:51:19 <andythenorth> quack
18:51:22 <LordAro> Ackmey: yes :)
18:51:24 <andythenorth> oh wrong animal :P
18:51:35 <Ackmey> Okay :D
18:51:38 <andythenorth> can an AI find rivers?
18:51:44 * andythenorth ponders river-naming-AI
18:51:45 <Ackmey> Problem though, the airplane is still not picking up any goods
18:52:23 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Named rivers, and towns named after said rivers?
18:52:31 <planetmaker> andythenorth: river naming is pointless as long as they don't restore themselves
18:52:31 <andythenorth> omg, imagine
18:52:34 <andythenorth> luxury
18:52:42 <LordAro> Ackmey: you've destroyed the road stations?
18:52:51 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it bothers you they don't restore themselves?
18:52:57 <planetmaker> GermanTowns are (often) named after rivers. Also in OpenTTD ;-)
18:53:42 <planetmaker> andythenorth: bother is stronger than it is. But it's on my "nice-to-have" list ;-)
18:53:53 <planetmaker> sea also restores itself
18:54:10 <andythenorth> you'd need to leave the tile marked as river tile? no matter what else happened to it?
18:54:17 <andythenorth> meanwhile...
18:54:20 <andythenorth>
18:54:35 <andythenorth> ^ if I connect those rivers, I can cross half the map by inland water
18:54:47 <planetmaker> there you go ;-)
18:54:52 <alluke> sounds fun
18:54:53 <andythenorth> although I'll have to destroy most of them to become canals :P
18:54:55 <LordAro> planetmaker: wouldn't be too difficult to have? just run the pathfinder with the 2 separated bits of river
18:55:00 <planetmaker> I usually can cross my maps by water anyway :-P
18:55:25 <planetmaker> LordAro: yes and no... the river would need to know it has been severed
18:55:25 <andythenorth> I might change the style of map I use
18:55:45 <Ackmey> LordAro: It works now
18:55:48 <Ackmey> thanks for the help :)
18:56:01 <planetmaker> but I found out that I should use medium variety distribution rather than very high.
18:56:04 <planetmaker> better rivers ;-)
18:56:08 <LordAro> planetmaker: surely the game can find out whattile was under the bulldozer?
18:56:12 <LordAro> Ackmey: no problem
18:56:16 <LordAro> :)
18:56:18 <planetmaker> LordAro: currently: not
18:56:26 <planetmaker> it's not stored, the tile class is set to normal land
18:56:28 <LordAro> odd :)
18:56:40 <planetmaker> that#s also done at sea. But sea just floods.
18:56:50 <LordAro> i would've thought it would :)
18:57:04 <planetmaker> thus what could maybe be a solution is to check each river tile to have a sea connection... but then the lakes don't work anymore
18:57:09 <andythenorth> :o
18:57:17 <planetmaker> thus there's an odditiy, too to be solved
18:57:18 <andythenorth> with medium variety distribution I get almost no rivers
18:57:23 <LordAro> but again, a check to see what's under the tile before it's destroyed?
18:57:28 <andythenorth> try variety distribution off - it's a crappy thing anyway
18:57:57 <andythenorth> could rivers actually be entities?
18:57:58 <planetmaker> off? No...
18:58:00 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22805 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move use of magic number for version checking to more logical location
18:58:08 <andythenorth> currently we speak of rivers, but we mean river tiles
18:58:21 <planetmaker> indeed
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18:58:43 <planetmaker> hm... I still have to get used to the newgrf scan window :-)
18:58:48 <andythenorth> can a river actually be an entity? it has a source during map gen
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19:02:36 <planetmaker> <-- andy, how does medium generate few rivers? ;-)
19:03:59 <andythenorth> meh
19:04:00 <andythenorth> who knows
19:04:04 <andythenorth> landscape gen is a crap shoot
19:04:25 <andythenorth> I just tried 'very smooth' and 'mountainous' with variety off, and got some more awesome systems
19:04:58 <andythenorth>
19:05:21 <andythenorth> I am going to have to change play style :P
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19:05:38 <andythenorth> very steep, very small islands are out of fashion :P
19:05:47 <planetmaker> oh... very smooth is sooooo boring. This is rough
19:05:51 <planetmaker> and mountainous
19:06:02 <LordAro> thats what she said
19:06:07 <planetmaker> rough is the minium roughness I play with ;-)
19:06:09 <andythenorth> Rubidium: is it deliberate the that the river gen creates realistic continental divides?
19:06:50 <Rubidium> you mean rivers not flowing up a hill?
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19:11:18 <andythenorth> I mean rivers flowing towards sea either side of a hill,
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19:13:02 <Eddi|zuHause> it's quite rare that a river splits and then flows in two different direction
19:13:25 <Rubidium> the algorithm finds (recursively) the closest lower flat tile and makes a river between those waypoints
19:13:38 <fjb> Moin
19:13:49 <Rubidium> so yes, it's meant to be going down the hill as fast as possible
19:15:10 <andythenorth> it's pretty good
19:16:01 <andythenorth>
19:16:39 * andythenorth has mostly spent today in the company of 'newgame' :P
19:21:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22806 /trunk/src/ (language.h strgen/strgen.cpp strings.cpp): -Codechange: store the number of untranslated strings in the language file
19:23:08 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22807 /trunk/src/ (4 files in 3 dirs): -Feature-ish: show a message about missing strings in the intro window if a certain (configurable) threshold has been reached and its not a stable release
19:23:50 *** Steve776 has joined #openttd
19:24:11 <Steve776> hey, new guy here
19:24:20 *** Steve776 has quit IRC
19:24:45 <Prof_Frink> hey, new guy there
19:25:42 *** Steve776 has joined #openttd
19:25:48 <Steve776> hey guys
19:25:49 <Alberth> hi new guy
19:25:51 <Steve776> new lad here
19:26:01 <Steve776> hey Albert
19:26:11 <Alberth> please try to stay a little longer :)
19:26:19 <Steve776> is this the place to ask questions?
19:26:25 <Steve776> lol I will try
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19:26:38 <Eddi|zuHause> that was a nice try.
19:27:49 <andythenorth> he's on a phone?
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19:36:31 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22808 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Change [FS#4740]: make it less likely that a one tile wide lake is created
19:37:22 <andythenorth> Alone pixel a day?
19:37:28 <andythenorth> hmm
19:37:34 <andythenorth> Alberth: one pixel a day?
19:37:50 <andythenorth> try at least 10^3 :P
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19:38:09 <andythenorth> another one?
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19:39:00 <Alberth> 'ten to the power of three' does not sound as good as 'one'
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19:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> nah... physicists occasionally treat 300.000km/s as "one"
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19:42:34 <Rubidium> oh, I thought as 12
19:45:27 <planetmaker> Wheeler: Gravitation
19:45:28 *** JVassie_ has joined #openttd
19:45:36 <planetmaker> c = epsilon = mu = G = 1
19:45:54 <planetmaker> enough knowledge in one book to kill with :-P
19:45:58 <SmatZ> :-)
19:46:03 <planetmaker> that's why the book is probably in black cover
19:46:07 <SmatZ> :D
19:46:13 <andythenorth> is there a name for a large amount of pixels?
19:46:21 <planetmaker> image?
19:46:23 <SmatZ> megapixel
19:46:31 <andythenorth> FIRS?
19:46:40 <SmatZ> :P
19:47:13 <planetmaker> it only has 0.9MByte. ogfx+landscape has 3MByte ;-)
19:47:26 <Alberth> pixels?
19:47:26 <planetmaker> repetition rules :-P
19:47:35 <planetmaker> grfsize
19:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> CETS is already several MB without a significant number of (useful) images
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19:55:01 <planetmaker> yup :-)
19:55:17 <planetmaker> as the same thing is included again and again
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19:59:17 <Eddi|zuHause> grf is way inefficient in compressing redundancy over different sprites
19:59:20 * andythenorth tries to break rubidium's river fix
19:59:39 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Do you pass -c to nmlc?
19:59:47 <planetmaker> michi_cc: we do
20:00:32 <planetmaker> hm... do we?
20:00:35 * planetmaker starts to wonder
20:00:36 <michi_cc> Where? grep won't find a -c for me
20:00:59 <michi_cc> NML_FLAGS in scripts/Makefile.def is set to empty...
20:01:03 <planetmaker> I expected it in scripts/Makefile.def
20:01:04 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i have no clue about the makefile... i only do the code generator :p
20:01:05 <planetmaker> yup
20:01:17 <andythenorth> Rubidium: less likely that the terrain generator makes a 1 tile lake? Or just the river generator?
20:01:51 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: pseudo sprites are uncompressed
20:02:09 <frosch123> and i think in the big grfs they are actually the majority :p
20:02:30 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but two real sprites with the same or similar content are not compressed either
20:02:47 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: compression is done for each real sprite individually
20:03:02 <Eddi|zuHause> (afair)
20:03:04 <frosch123> yeah, but still, i think pseudo sprites have the bigger effect
20:03:48 <Eddi|zuHause> could just teach openttd to read .tar.gz/bz2/xz
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20:05:07 <pjpe> how did ttdpatch do building over tunnel entrances?
20:05:24 <pjpe> did they have a grf that does the uh
20:05:28 <pjpe> sprite for building over a tunnel?
20:05:32 <Eddi|zuHause> cets.grf: 3874227, cets.tar.gz: 225463
20:05:46 * planetmaker tests with -c
20:05:50 <Eddi|zuHause> that's almost factor 20
20:06:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: reading compressed files isn't a problem. Scanning through them in random order (sprite loading) is
20:06:35 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: it just prints the rail over the tunnel sprite, whatever the sprite looks like
20:07:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: so we need a compression algorithm that is good in random access, or a very large sprite cache
20:08:34 <Rubidium> I thinnk CETS just duplicates sprites too much
20:08:44 <Rubidium> or has way too much 'blue' around them
20:09:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, lots of duplicates. firstly, all wagons are currently green blobs, secondly, sprites are duplicated for different xrel/yrel values
20:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> s/wagons/vehicles/
20:10:09 <Rubidium> as I don't think it got some 10k different real sprites
20:10:51 <pjpe> eddi when would that ever really conflict with a newgrf then
20:10:57 <Eddi|zuHause> we have something in the order of 300 different vehicles, each with 24 views
20:11:02 <pjpe> i thought that was the reason people didn't really make that patch
20:11:22 <Eddi|zuHause> pjpe: it looks totally rubbish with the default graphics
20:12:01 <pjpe> having a floating rail?
20:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, rail without ballast, even.
20:12:22 <pjpe>
20:12:25 <pjpe> doesn't look so bad there
20:12:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it looks horrible
20:13:21 <andythenorth> it looks bloody awful
20:13:42 <andythenorth> meanwhile :D
20:14:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it probably gets more silly on rough maps
20:15:21 <andythenorth> this is neat:
20:16:10 <Eddi|zuHause> why is there a lonely piece of desert?
20:16:11 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: Congratulations. You've invented original-ai rivers.
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20:22:12 <V453000> the new rivers are quite nice :)
20:22:24 <planetmaker> yup :-)
20:23:49 <andythenorth> quite?
20:23:54 <andythenorth> understatement of the week :P
20:24:36 <SmatZ> well, it could be worse
20:24:40 <SmatZ> :)
20:24:59 * SmatZ hugs andythenorth
20:26:17 <pikka2> another beautiful moin...
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20:29:04 <andythenorth> SmatZ is very huggy
20:29:08 <andythenorth> lo pikka2
20:29:27 <andythenorth> why is an SSD so rinsingly expensive
20:29:31 * andythenorth wants one
20:29:46 <pikka2> morning andy pandy
20:30:19 <pikka2> I guess it's time to get this bus moving, ttyl
20:30:32 <planetmaker> hello pikka2
20:30:38 <planetmaker> morning... is good :-)
20:33:29 <frosch123> night
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20:55:59 <andythenorth> we should teach power stations to build next to rivers
20:56:04 <andythenorth> or is that just in the uk?
20:57:50 <planetmaker> nuclear plants prefer rivers or tectononic ridges
20:58:09 <planetmaker> ^w^w^w
20:58:26 <glx> nuclear plants need water
20:59:22 * andythenorth is going to bed
20:59:24 <andythenorth> good night
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21:08:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm fairly sure water also helps in coal power plants ;)
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21:14:13 <planetmaker> well... except in wind and solar power, water might come in handy everywhere else
21:14:27 <Yexo> hydropower!
21:15:18 <Eddi|zuHause> solar power works also way better with water... photo voltaic is meh...
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21:34:31 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i seem to remember that photovoltaic also works better with water - cools them down (think computers :) )
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21:35:08 <Eddi|zuHause> computers work horribly with water.
21:35:30 <appe>
21:35:35 <appe> that does actually work
21:36:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i fail to see _anything_ on that picture
21:36:49 <appe> its a mess, i know.
21:37:18 <Eddi|zuHause> no... it's just pixels
21:38:08 <LordAro> Eddi|zuHause: i mean, the cooler, the better sort of thing ;)
21:38:42 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: water is still the worst thing to use for that
21:39:12 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: you know, water leads electricity.
21:39:46 <LordAro> well, water on top of the panels, obviously not inside them...
21:40:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and there is no way to get it pure enough that it doesn't
21:40:16 <glx> oil is better
21:40:21 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: as soon as you add water to anything, it _will_ leak
21:40:30 <Eddi|zuHause> it
21:40:45 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not even a question of "when", but only "how much"
21:41:32 <LordAro> meh, just what i heard :)
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21:43:11 <LordAro> the panels in question were (i believe) in Jamaica, so, a bit hotter than here, and apparently the heat was reducing efficiency. the owner apparently put a water sprayer on them, and it was much better
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21:58:48 <Wolf01> 'night
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22:07:31 <Eddi|zuHause> some crazy shit seems to be going on in libya right now...
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