IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-18
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09:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> wow. HE actually announced a release date...
09:30:26 <Eddi|zuHause> "DBXL 0.9 [...] (möglichst) am 11.11.2011."
09:32:22 <peter1138> but that's minecraft day!
09:33:06 <Alberth> and it is not version 0.11
09:34:07 <Alberth> the year 1111 has somewhat past already :p
09:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> waiting for the 22.2.2222 is kinda... long ;)
09:35:14 <Alberth> and too many things will happen at that date :)
09:35:43 <Eddi|zuHause> 11.11. is typically the start of carneval season
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09:50:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: you're speaking to me? :P Seems a bit harsh
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13:51:55 <planetmaker> I always wonder(ed) what's so new about that
13:52:29 <planetmaker> But I guess some API changes will need taking care of
13:52:49 <andythenorth> lion isn't out yet?
13:52:56 <planetmaker> at least not here
13:53:10 <andythenorth> I would have to get snow leopard first
13:53:15 <andythenorth> I don't know if I can be arsed :P
13:53:35 <andythenorth> if any ottd things stop working, I'm too lazy to fix...
13:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i could use the engine template graphics for the different lengths right about now
13:54:43 <planetmaker> they're in some issue for cets, aren't they?
13:54:53 <planetmaker> at least 16/8 and 12/8
13:59:02 <planetmaker> which reminds me... I should get a new HDD to test lion when it comes out :-)
13:59:50 <planetmaker> I never do system upgrades ;-)
14:00:00 <planetmaker> I swap HDDs and use the old one as backup
14:00:16 <planetmaker> too much time too easily killed with failed upgrades
14:01:30 <supermop> what is the height limit for sprites?
14:03:22 <supermop> is that from lowest point on the tile to highest point of the sprite? or along the side of the bounding box?
14:04:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i think from the highest point of the tile to the highest point of the sprite
14:04:19 <supermop> first day ive heard cicadas outside
14:04:21 <Eddi|zuHause> and a hard limit of 512 or so
14:04:36 <supermop> but that will have trouble rendering?
14:04:39 <Eddi|zuHause> but actually that is just a guess
14:05:29 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that will cost me 2 hds
14:05:37 <andythenorth> one for snow leopard upgrade, one for lion :P
14:07:54 <supermop> want to draw this guy for practice drawing glazing:
14:07:57 <planetmaker> in that case probably hardly, if you're still at leopard
14:08:34 <supermop> but i'll need to caricature its proportions a bit
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14:09:00 <MNIM> you always need to juggle proportions in ttd
14:09:14 <supermop> not sure if i should just make it shorter, or shrink it so that each box is only 1-2 floors
14:10:06 <supermop> hmm its a nice day, maybe i will go sit in madison square and sketch it in person
14:10:55 <supermop> not sure how to handle two different colors of reflected glazing
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14:12:54 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i meant for all prospected lengths
14:13:06 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: and afair the 12lu template was really poorly done
14:15:41 <planetmaker> yes, it's not great
14:16:20 <planetmaker> but it's a template, "the vehicle" need not look good
14:16:35 <planetmaker> and as template it's just as good as the 16/8
14:19:57 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think the second sprite from the right was missed in the shortening
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14:27:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i broke it: Error: (AssertionError) "No unique number available".
14:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> (although i'm pretty certain triggering an assertion there is not right)
14:40:25 <Eddi|zuHause> here's my current version that i tried to compile: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets.nml (1.3MB)
14:44:08 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, where do you get that assertion?
14:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> during "nmlc cets.nml" step
14:44:34 <Eddi|zuHause> with the above file
14:44:42 <planetmaker> that's not in the repo?
14:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i didn't check it in yet
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14:50:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i pushed it now, but it's broken...
14:51:26 <planetmaker> well... that smells like action2 or action1 entries are exhausted...
14:52:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. question is can we do something to solve that
14:53:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know enough about the nml internals to get an overview about how it fails
14:55:39 <Hirundo> Judging by the stack trace (-s option), it fails in the actionD
14:57:39 <Hirundo> You seem to have too many named parameters
14:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... where do those come from?
14:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i may have an idea to restructure things
15:03:39 <Eddi|zuHause> it's likely a failure of NML to optimize out constant expressions
15:07:14 <Hirundo> NML doesn't detect that named params are a constant
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15:09:58 <Hirundo> Parameter handling is on my todo-list, other stuff currently has a higher priority though
15:10:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i worked around it now.
15:16:45 <Eddi|zuHause> great. i'm at the point of crashing openttd now :p
15:25:53 <supermop> would you guys say that all large buildings should have cc accents for vareity, or only a few?
15:27:56 <supermop> this one is all glasses, short of cc glass, cant think of any areas to color
15:28:46 <supermop> also, if i draw 4 rotateions, can the game randomly pick one to use?
15:29:46 <supermop> or can one face always face the street?
15:32:42 <Belugas> if i remember correctly, for a certain building, the game only applies random colour
15:33:23 <Belugas> as much as building itself, it might trhough some callbacks (but do't mark my words on it)
15:38:53 <supermop> can a building choose multiple random sprites from a list?
15:39:33 <supermop> so if i want to simulate say, two townhouses sharing a tile,
15:40:00 <planetmaker> you basically can do anything you want. You can read neighboring tiles and their animation state
15:40:25 <supermop> it can randomly a 1x0.5 tile sprite for the left half, the randomly pick another for the right half
15:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i can't get this right today. must continue later.
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15:44:27 <Eddi|zuHause> if anyone is interested: crash log and grf: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/crash.log www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/cets.grf happened when buying a vehicle (BR 01)
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16:41:31 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: Cannot reproduce here
16:45:20 <Hirundo> What modifications did you make to ottd?
17:13:17 <andythenorth> there are now quite long specs for 'how we should remake all the settings'
17:13:21 <andythenorth> but they're all words
17:21:19 <Alberth> yep, some people like to discuss ad infinitum
17:21:47 <andythenorth> I suggest pictures :P
17:22:21 <andythenorth> writing GUI specs in words seems....perverse
17:22:29 <planetmaker> didn't we have that? pictures?
17:22:43 <andythenorth> lets do it as a project for christmas
17:23:39 <andythenorth> that's valid words
17:23:45 <andythenorth> it shows structure and such
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17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22672 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt german.txt):
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by Harlequin
17:45:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 5 changes by planetmaker
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18:17:15 <supermop> how would you draw black mirror glass?
18:17:50 <andythenorth> by looking at how simon foster did it :P
18:18:00 <andythenorth> mirror is instantly a problem :P
18:20:35 <supermop> this building has dark purpley brown glass, and light green mirror glass, so i need to differentiate
18:20:54 <supermop> the green glass is more normal in color, which would make it purple in tt
18:21:10 <supermop> but then the dark glass needs to be even more purple
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18:21:33 <planetmaker> two different glass effects is quite difficult
18:21:47 <planetmaker> the glass effect on stations for example is done by means of the proper recolour thingy
18:22:36 <supermop> but neither of these can be transparent
18:23:49 <supermop> and in real life, the purple-brown glass changes color throughout the day with the sky, but due to the isometric angle in TT, vertical glass cannot reflect any 'sky' color
18:24:19 <supermop> but iit cannot reflect the ground, as i have no idea what it will be next to
18:25:24 <Belugas> and don't base yourself on... real life
18:25:41 <Chris_Booth> or shine lights on it from the base
18:25:46 <Chris_Booth> so there would be no reflection
18:26:01 <Chris_Booth> that would be quite a cool effect
18:26:50 <andythenorth> supermop there are plenty of examples in ttd graphics
18:27:40 <supermop> modifying this building's base to look like a Gwathmey building, even though i hate Gwathmeys
18:27:46 <andythenorth> in tropic there's a blue tower, and a concrete tower which should give clues
18:27:49 <supermop> because it looks better in pixels
18:28:04 <andythenorth> the blue tower has satellites on it
18:28:48 <andythenorth> you just need to use highlight for the mirrored windows, and dark for the rest
18:28:53 <andythenorth> use the normal purple shades
18:30:03 <supermop> i need a purple like nissan is using on the new GT-Rs
18:30:08 <supermop> that would be perfect
18:33:25 <Chris_Booth> no you need some of those TVR colours that change at different agnles you look at them
18:34:06 <supermop> the gtr paint does that, just very subtlety
18:34:18 <supermop> from dark purple to warm purple
18:35:49 <supermop> i think i will use cc construction fences instead of orange
18:36:20 <Hirundo> drawing the foreground or background ;) ?
18:37:26 <supermop> its hard to find a picture of the west facade of the building.. thats one of the best ones out there
18:37:41 <supermop> put i was able to go look at the south facade over lunch
18:39:11 <supermop> should the glazing get lighter higher up the building, or stay uniform?
18:39:47 <V453000> there was some building in the picture?
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18:49:06 * frosch123 is once again shocked by remove tab completion
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18:52:47 <V453000> q: how do I indicate the maximum "safe" size of a sprite? In this case for a 0.5 tile wagon, but overall?
18:56:03 <Eddi|zuHause> <Hirundo> What modifications did you make to ottd? <- hm, i don't think i made any change that could cause this. from what i can gather my changes are: the var 60+ patch, the adjacent level crossing patch and the stuck counter patch. also some tgp debug code, some random setting default values, and something about trying to get "rcon command params" to work without additional quotes. the var 60+ patch is found here: http://www.tt-forums.
18:56:04 <Eddi|zuHause> net/viewtopic.php?f=68&t=51697
18:56:17 <frosch123> what is the "safe" size of a sprite?
18:57:57 <V453000> frosch123: I think I read from george somewhere that openttd accepts even "larger" sprites but these could glitch ... I am trying to get my head over a maximum size which does not glitch
18:58:26 <frosch123> oh, you mean the "Z height" of a vehicle?
18:58:47 <V453000> or ... sprite X Y in this case :D
18:58:49 <frosch123> just use the usual vehicle templates
18:58:58 <V453000> where can I get those?
18:59:31 <frosch123> somewhere on the devzone, on pikka's wiki, in the old newgrf specs
18:59:38 <frosch123> (different versions of different guys)
19:00:17 <V453000> oh right :) I will check that out, thanks!
19:00:36 <andythenorth> use the pikka templates from pikka wiki
19:00:50 <planetmaker> V453000: I suggest to dig OpenGFX+ Trains and OpenGFX+ RVs respectively ;-)
19:01:08 <planetmaker> there you get also the templates readily defined ;-)
19:01:25 <V453000> andythenorth: I of course started there :P
19:02:26 <Hirundo> Eddi|zuHause: I'd suggest to try with clean trunk
19:02:37 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, doing that right now
19:29:19 <supermop> could i use two layers of station roof transparency to make something extra dark?
19:29:45 <andythenorth> iirc transparency is controllable that way yes
19:29:55 <planetmaker> my first monitor only knew two: black and white ;-)
19:29:57 <andythenorth> the recolor sprites spec might tell you
19:30:10 <planetmaker> hm, wrong channel :-P
19:30:40 <V453000> how does transparency work in openttd?
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19:31:27 <V453000> or ... how do I gain it?
19:32:02 <planetmaker> you apply recolour sprite 0x322 ;-)
19:33:32 <planetmaker> basically you have to define a colour translation table which translates every colour to what it appears through your transparent material
19:33:51 <V453000> right that will be a pain :D
19:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> my first monitor only knew two: black and white ;-) <-- you mean black and green?
19:34:15 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: nope
19:34:16 <V453000> but at least I had no idea it is possible before :P thanks pm
19:34:33 <planetmaker> V453000: you certainly have seen tubular bridges or glass stations?
19:34:45 <andythenorth> some of them cheat
19:34:56 <andythenorth> some just leave 1px gaps iirc
19:35:25 <V453000> planetmaker: probably :) I had a feeling like it is done by making "every other pixel" missing
19:35:47 <V453000> but yeah glass stations :)
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19:42:13 <supermop> so does the translation table have to set the new color for each original color? or does it make every color one shade darker?
19:48:09 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a table with 256 entries
19:55:08 <frosch123> i would rather do that than drawing a vehicle in 8 orientations and 5 loading stages, a moving and a stopped stage
20:00:15 <V453000> like for example the DB set livestock box cars? stopped = open doors if empty?
20:00:15 <V453000> wait how is a stopped stage different from a moving one
20:01:27 <frosch123> door opened/closed etc.
20:01:38 <frosch123> though in some cases you do not see the loading stage in one of them
20:02:03 <frosch123> well, stopped/moving is actually incorrect
20:02:11 <frosch123> it is loading/moving
20:03:37 <V453000> well it really depends on shape of the vehicle
20:03:58 <V453000> box-like trains are quick, but some weird shapes are just such an endless pain
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20:24:53 <narf0> Hi. It's not explained clearly in wiki, so i have a question about the block signal: what controlls if it is red or green
20:26:11 <Rubidium> something in block -> red, otherwise -> green
20:27:36 <valhallasw> the free track from one signal to the next
20:27:40 <Rubidium> do you know anything about electricity?
20:28:16 <narf0> is block defined as follows: "two track tiles are in same block if a train can ride from one point to another without going trough a signal"?
20:28:47 <SpComb> even impossible track configurations (for trains driving through)
20:29:15 <narf0> like two tracks forming a # ?
20:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> narf0: no, also switches which the train cannot take are considered connected
20:30:09 <narf0> okay but it's a form of a floodfill between two signal tiles right?
20:31:07 <narf0> ok. if two tracks go in paralel not crossing each other, those don;t form a block?
20:31:28 <Eddi|zuHause> right. only when they meet at one end, or cross some other way
20:32:27 <narf0> stations and depots are also block terminators?
20:32:43 <Eddi|zuHause> no. stations count as normal rail
20:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> depots have a signal built inside, so they do end a block
20:35:12 <narf0> okay, so if i have a layout: [1]==x===x==[2], x - double side signal, both x's are opened, but ==x==[train]==x== bot closed ?
20:35:43 <SpComb> having double signals like that is fail
20:37:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you learn more by watching the AI and trying to recreate their styles
20:38:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and yes, path signals are probably easier and more widely useful
20:38:14 <narf0> I don't want to learn pre-definied layouts, i want to understand the algoritm and make my own.
20:42:39 <planetmaker> you'll do that once you look at how others build
20:43:36 <narf0> I was looking for some designs on the wiki and I'm totally confused. I like to know how things work :)
20:44:34 <narf0> I hope it's not a crime to ask (:
20:45:11 <SpComb> narf0: make your own algorithm, in terms of code?
20:45:15 <SpComb> or your own signal layots
20:45:37 <narf0> SpComb i dont want to code anything, i just want to understand signals
20:45:54 <narf0> I don't want to just copy images in the net.
20:46:18 <SpComb> you can ignore the ye olde TTDPatch stuff
20:46:26 <planetmaker> then only trying yourself and toying with the options helps
20:47:02 <planetmaker> place a path signal where a train may be allowed to stop and only there.
20:47:19 <planetmaker> you won't learn by talking about to learn ;-)
20:47:21 <narf0> SpComb thanks, i'll try it out
20:48:27 <narf0> Also one thing: it;s hard to play with those tiny signal images
20:49:19 <narf0> It's hard to identify them and tell their state, so it's hard to learn by playing
20:49:35 <planetmaker> the state is totally unimportant really
20:49:46 <planetmaker> as you can't change the state yourself anyway
20:50:08 <narf0> planetmaker to learn by testing myself i need to see something
20:50:31 <narf0> or I can watch if a train is stopping... well
20:50:53 <planetmaker> as said: care only about path signals
20:50:58 <planetmaker> and watch the flow
20:51:10 <planetmaker> don't even start to care about a signal state
20:51:24 <planetmaker> it's something totally out of your control anyway
20:52:15 <planetmaker> don't theorize on how they work. Play with them. Test how it works. Modify your layouts
20:53:32 <planetmaker> and - again - look at how other people on MP servers build. Build that. modify it in your company
20:54:08 <planetmaker> there's no single path to correct signaling
20:55:17 <narf0> I just want my trains not to crash :)
20:55:29 <planetmaker> you trains will never crash
20:55:44 <planetmaker> unless your remove or turn signals
20:56:29 <planetmaker> or I should say modify signals
20:57:00 <planetmaker> if you only work on track sections where currently no train is running, they'll never crash
21:01:13 <narf0> the trains can either work perfectly, or end up either crashing or blocking each other
21:01:25 <narf0> i want them to work perfectly
21:03:20 <planetmaker> you didn't quite read what I wrote, eh?
21:04:38 <narf0> I did and what about it?
21:05:09 <narf0> It wan't helpful, sorry.
21:06:28 <planetmaker> I understand. Sorry. I won't talk to you again.
21:13:04 <narf0> planetmaker You can talk to me. I'm sorry if you felt offended. Anyway, thank you for your help.
21:20:10 <supermop> i used the darkest purple, but its still too purple
21:22:15 <planetmaker> supermop: maybe use one of the more brownish colours
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21:50:25 <supermop> ive sort of made something
21:52:33 <supermop> anyone care to take a look
21:54:54 <Hirundo> if you post a link, there's always someone who clicks on it
21:56:20 * SmatZ just got an n-th google+ invitation... wtf is that :x
21:56:34 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not facebook
21:57:02 <SmatZ> or... "so it doesn't suck"
21:57:06 <Eddi|zuHause> how should i know
21:57:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i have used neither...
22:06:48 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
22:20:24 <SmatZ> I was waiting for a reply to my message, expecting I will get an email notification about that
22:20:35 <SmatZ> of course I didn't get any notification...
22:23:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you don't get email notification for getting an email either :p
22:24:24 <SmatZ> actually, most webmails allow you to configure such a rule, "send a message to some other email when an email is received"
22:24:40 <SmatZ> I had even enabled SMS notifications
22:25:00 <SmatZ> but I got bored of those "en1arg3 y0ur p3n1s" SMSs...
23:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> very... purple...
23:18:38 <Eddi|zuHause> and i think it's too high
23:18:41 <supermop> why must windows be purple anyway?
23:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> should leave out one section
23:19:25 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, i meant it doesn't really fit optically...
23:21:29 <supermop> i could make it shorter and thinner - right now its too fat
23:22:05 <supermop> i want it to take the place of the cylinder building that hangs from two yellow poles
23:24:08 <supermop> what color glass do you prefer?
23:24:08 <Eddi|zuHause> try making the pink more dark-ish brown
23:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> and in the lowest section the grey roof has some weird pixels sticking out
23:26:32 <Eddi|zuHause> it's probably correct, but it looks odd
23:28:08 <supermop> its supposed to be the railing of the roof terrace, but yeah it does look wierd
23:28:58 <supermop> anything you would make cc?
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23:32:46 <a_p3rson> is there a way to have a train wait for a full load of a certain cargo before departing a station?
23:33:36 <Eddi|zuHause> no, you cannot choose a specific cargo. it's either all cargos, or the first cargo that is full
23:34:12 <a_p3rson> would full load any cargo load get close to that?
23:34:18 <Eddi|zuHause> (except planes, they ignore it when the mail is full, they always wait for passengers)
23:35:48 <Eddi|zuHause> full load all => the train leaves when absolutely all cargos holds are full. full load any => train leaves when one cargo has been fully loaded
23:36:44 <a_p3rson> would full load any wait for two cargos to full load, if present?
23:38:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the first one that is full wins
23:38:53 <Eddi|zuHause> it will load whatever is left of the second cargo, and then leave immediately
23:44:45 <a_p3rson> and is there a way to have a vehicle skip a stop if it is full loaded of that kind of cargo?
23:45:12 <a_p3rson> like one train makes multiple stops, but have it skip other stops if it is fully loaded?
23:49:12 <Eddi|zuHause> you can make conditional orders, yes
23:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if you can choose a cargo type there
23:49:39 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess rather not
23:50:10 <Eddi|zuHause> check the wiki on conditional orders
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