IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-17
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00:14:17 <frosch123> night
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00:42:16 <DarkM3nd3z> Hi :D
00:47:21 <DarkM3nd3z> ...
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08:06:01 <Terkhen> good morning
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08:18:37 <LordAro> mornings
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08:22:46 <Terkhen> hi LordAro
08:23:00 <LordAro> hai Terkhen :)
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08:23:24 <Terkhen> hi Alberth
08:23:34 <Alberth> hi
08:24:34 * Alberth considers doing a bit of tarfile creating today
08:25:08 <LordAro> ji ALberth
08:25:10 <LordAro> *hi
08:25:13 <LordAro> lol
08:34:47 <planetmaker> moin
08:37:13 <Alberth> moin
08:38:17 * planetmaker gives albert a tar file ;-)
08:38:17 <Alberth> stupid linux system, no tar(5) :(
08:38:47 <Alberth> good, an example :)
08:39:20 <planetmaker> you really need some? ;-)
08:40:07 <Alberth> I'd also be happy with some OpenTTD code for creating them :p
08:40:45 <planetmaker> he :-) I thought we have that already?
08:40:54 <planetmaker> Or do we just read them yet?
08:40:56 <Alberth> creating?
08:41:19 <Alberth> afaik it is read-only currently
08:41:21 <planetmaker> dowload content only writes binary without such knowledge?
08:41:57 <planetmaker> (just asking, I didn't look at that code)
08:42:11 <Alberth> don't know exactly, but wouldn't it just download data from the remote?
08:43:05 <planetmaker> probably
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09:00:23 <J4n> hello
09:00:59 <planetmaker> hi j4n
09:01:07 <J4n> how can i run more trains on 1 line
09:01:13 <J4n> i dont get it with the light signs
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09:01:51 <planetmaker> I suggest you read up on the signal guides
09:02:01 <J4n> i already did
09:02:17 <J4n> tbh its more confusing than helping :D
09:02:20 <J4n> or im too stupid
09:02:32 <planetmaker> and join MP servers and look and learn :-)
09:02:47 <J4n> mp server
09:03:46 <planetmaker> multiplayer
09:04:01 <J4n> ahh ok
09:04:06 <J4n> can i just watch too?
09:04:15 <planetmaker> of course
09:04:26 <J4n> how can i join :)
09:04:33 <planetmaker> but better is trying to build what you see :-)
09:05:30 <planetmaker> and what I usually recommend as reading
09:06:42 <J4n> ty
09:06:44 <planetmaker> if you use path signals: put a signal there where a train shall be allowed to stop
09:06:49 <planetmaker> that's all you gotta know
09:08:46 <J4n> do i have to build waiting slots for trains?
09:08:57 <J4n> that the other train can pass through
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09:10:02 <planetmaker> on a single piece of track of course only one train can be at a time.
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09:10:33 <J4n> ok good to know
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09:27:12 <LordAro> planetmaker: safely, at least :)
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10:41:51 <Wolf01> hello
10:42:12 <planetmaker> hi Wolf01
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10:55:04 <V453000> hello beautiful
10:56:53 <planetmaker> hi V453000
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10:58:52 <V453000> hu pm :)
11:01:59 <V453000> pm: question, if I draw something in "fire" pixels, what will happen? will it glow in game like fire does, or? seen here
11:02:17 <frosch123> use ttdviewer :)
11:02:29 <frosch123>
11:02:50 <V453000> sounds bloody awesome, thanks
11:08:49 <V453000> right, question number 2: how far of a terribly stupid idea is abusing the glowing water/fire/etc stuff on trains? :D
11:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> very.
11:09:24 <frosch123> water effects are quite nice on firs
11:09:33 <frosch123> well, and if you want a rocket train ....
11:09:47 <V453000> I have rocket trains :P
11:10:26 <Eddi|zuHause> if you see fire coming out of the steam engine, you might be in back to the future 3 :p
11:10:49 <V453000> :D
11:11:10 <frosch123> the lighthouse blinking might also work on firs vehicles and other heavy stuff
11:11:18 <planetmaker> use those pixels which look best ;-)
11:11:23 <V453000> right :D
11:11:55 <Eddi|zuHause> some vehicles of GermanRV use red or yellow blinking pixels while at stations
11:12:07 <Eddi|zuHause> the yellow blinking looks weird though, as it is not 50/50
11:12:27 <planetmaker> typical broken blinking device ;-)
11:12:38 <planetmaker> service required more often :-P
11:12:39 <V453000> ok lets get psycho
11:15:09 <planetmaker> what're you up to, V453000?
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11:15:42 <Eddi|zuHause> "unrealistic train set" he said yesterday ;)
11:16:03 <planetmaker> ah :-)
11:16:15 * planetmaker loves un-realism :-)
11:16:30 <planetmaker> reality already has too much 'realism'
11:17:41 <V453000> something nuts
11:17:43 <planetmaker> apropos realism, Eddi|zuHause: what do you think of overhuemer's tries to convince you of using 22.5° angle steps instead of 15°?
11:17:55 <V453000> and when I say nuts I think you can believe me
11:17:59 <planetmaker> I'm not sure what I shall make of that, honestly
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11:18:02 <Eddi|zuHause> haven't looked at it yet
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11:18:44 <Eddi|zuHause> and i'm definitely not doing this before lunch ;)
11:18:50 <planetmaker> hehe
11:18:57 * planetmaker is having brunch ;-)
11:19:18 <Eddi|zuHause> don't you have brunch at like 10 o'clock? ;)
11:19:47 <planetmaker> I definitely don't have brunch before getting up from bed :-P
11:20:04 <planetmaker> or only on the _very_ rare occasion befor that ;-)
11:20:04 <frosch123> brunch is the meal between breakfast and lunch
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11:20:17 <planetmaker> between? In combination of, I thought
11:20:21 <frosch123> :p
11:20:49 <frosch123> shall i say between the second breakfast and the first lunch?
11:21:09 <frosch123> not to confuse with the snack at noon
11:21:33 <V453000> planetmaker: I am basically up to making a train set which has only one purpose: playability. With which is hand-in hand the fact that I am going to use my own values based on gameplay, not a single "real life counterpart" crap. ... So some futuristic or even not so futuristic, but still just "stuff what imagination brought" tends to be quite ... odd :)
11:22:08 <planetmaker> what defines "playability" for you?
11:22:27 <V453000> well for example that I get a new engine every 2 years
11:22:40 <V453000> that the vehicle stats make sense
11:22:44 <planetmaker> lool @ frosch123 :-)
11:22:48 <V453000> which is mainly it basically
11:22:57 <planetmaker> I didn't have the impression you were *such* a hungry person ;-)
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11:24:39 <planetmaker> hm... /me ponders whether "show linked images inline" is a good option for an IRC client
11:25:56 <frosch123> planetmaker: did you never read discworld?
11:26:23 <planetmaker> like 6 books. Then it became somewhat repetitive in the humor - pattern
11:27:07 <planetmaker> so I read some, but certainly only a small minority of the discwold novels ;-)
11:27:13 <frosch123> the wizards (including the wizzard) have a quite dense schedule of meals :)
11:27:46 <planetmaker> hm :-) I did not recall that - so probably a topic in one of the books I did not read ;-)
11:28:36 <frosch123> i hope you did not read the early ones, the first few are indeed not that good
11:28:45 <planetmaker> the thing I most remember is the uber-sharp scythe of the Grim Reaper ;-)
11:29:03 <planetmaker> as sharp that it ionizes the air around the edge :-P
11:29:07 <frosch123> the one sharpened with light?
11:29:14 <planetmaker> hm, possibly, yes
11:29:44 <planetmaker> and... might be that it were about the first ones. It's certainly like 10 ... 15 years ago that I read them
11:30:13 <planetmaker> though it was already then that there were more than just a hand full of disc world novels around
11:31:45 <Eddi|zuHause> <frosch123> not to confuse with the snack at noon <-- have you converted to hobbit-ism? ;)
11:32:33 <frosch123> true, they also have similiar rites
11:35:14 <planetmaker> :-)
11:35:31 <planetmaker> with all respect: both of you would not pass as hobits ;-)
11:35:38 <planetmaker> (nor myself actually)
11:35:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i could pass as gandalf ;)
11:36:10 <planetmaker> Boromir ;-)
11:36:25 <Eddi|zuHause> nah, i'd have to fight then...
11:36:52 <planetmaker> The worst fights were for Gandalf...
11:37:45 <Eddi|zuHause> but he did not have to rely on strength alone
11:41:09 <planetmaker> "thou shall not pass!" ;-)
11:41:49 <planetmaker> the best battle is the battle not fought
11:43:04 <frosch123>
11:43:45 <planetmaker> hehe :-)
11:43:48 <frosch123> does your inline function work?
11:45:53 <planetmaker> not with that one...
11:46:03 <planetmaker> but it worked with the newgrf wiki image earlier. Why ever
11:46:36 <frosch123> ah, i guess it would only work with
11:46:44 <frosch123> the other one has html stuff around
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11:48:02 <planetmaker> neither :-) But... not really important...
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12:08:34 <LordAro> V453000: how about adding the train from back to the future (3) to your trainset? with flames coming out of it when it reaches 88mph :)
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12:13:38 <frosch123> ottd has only red fire effects
12:14:38 <Eddi|zuHause> well, could one make a custom recolour-sprite-animation?
12:15:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean: return a different recolour sprite in each animation frame
12:15:37 <planetmaker> you could just use a recolour sprite for the animation colours
12:15:39 <Eddi|zuHause> recolour the steam puffs randomly ;)
12:25:07 <lugo-> Nyan Train
12:25:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't know what exactly oberhümer did, but these offsets are _not_ right
12:25:38 <planetmaker> hm... recolour sprites are probably used much too little ;-)
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12:31:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you mean wagons should turn earlier?
12:31:32 <Eddi|zuHause> no, everything is aligned wrong...
12:31:49 <planetmaker> hm? In what way?
12:31:52 <Eddi|zuHause> the sprites don't even start at the beginning of the vehicle in normal views
12:32:21 <planetmaker> wrt bounding boxes? hm... yes
12:34:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not very convinced...
12:35:54 <planetmaker> ui... why does the A2 have 1HP power?
12:36:06 <planetmaker> makes for _very_ bad acceleration ;-)
12:36:16 <Eddi|zuHause> because somebody didn't fill out the value in the tracking table
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12:38:22 <planetmaker> :-)
12:39:35 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: suggestion for detect those vehicles with incomplete stats and don't write files for them - but generate a warning ouput line instead
12:40:15 <Eddi|zuHause> warning, probably, but rather fill out some random default values
12:40:41 <frosch123> hmm, someone in here who builds while paused regulary?
12:41:09 <frosch123> s/regulary/sometimes/
12:41:56 <MNIM> yes.
12:42:41 <frosch123> nice :) the explosions when removing something block my view... however it is not possible to animate them during pause due to the way they are implemented.
12:42:57 <frosch123> so i wonder what is better: do not spawn them when paused, or hide all effects when paused
12:43:13 * Alberth votes for the former
12:43:17 <frosch123> in the latter case they will pop up when pause is continued
12:43:39 <frosch123> though it also hides stuff started before the pausing started
12:43:42 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, the latter. or modify the effects to start with a transparent sprite
12:44:01 <MNIM> I like eddi's last suggestion
12:44:33 <Alberth> although it may be nice to expose a newly build structure with a big explosion :p
12:44:37 <frosch123> yeah, that might work as well
12:45:12 <MNIM> a less hack-like solution like implementing explosions more like the buy/sell ka-chings would be even better, but a hack like that makes live considerably easier too without so much effort
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13:21:12 <narf0> Hi, Where to put and what files/dirs for openttd for symbian?
13:23:28 <planetmaker> you'd have to ask the person who compiles it for symbian. It's not an official port
13:25:25 <narf0> okay but maybe, do you know if a need the transport tycoon deluxe files or can i use the freeware ones?
13:26:21 <planetmaker> I'm quite sure you can use OpenGFX and friends
13:26:35 <planetmaker> except if the symbian port is like from the stone age
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13:27:41 <narf0> planetmaker okay, what would this error mean: "no available language packs" ?
13:28:04 <narf0> does it mean some files from lang or from data?
13:28:29 <LordAro> probably lang
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13:29:19 <planetmaker> narf0: it means that you're missing the language files. I.e. the person who supplied the the binary didn't supply a proper openttd bundle as s/he should have done
13:29:32 <narf0> funny, the person who made this wrote about this on a forum and he didnt gave any explanations. He said:
13:29:53 <narf0> "You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
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13:30:41 <narf0> planetmaker this binary works for people on the net (youtube videos including) :/
13:32:03 <Levent> any1 have a contact with Mega that real name is arjan, founder of clanmega and hosted clanmega CDIS server? which one from dutchland? im erally searching him theese days.
13:32:06 <planetmaker> narf0: probably they copied it from some other installation. A procedure which is strongly discouraged
13:37:15 <planetmaker> Levent: they seem to have gone into somewhat a hiding. I haven't (conciously) heard / read from clanmega anthing in quite a while
13:39:25 <planetmaker> have you tried the obvious like the e-mail etc found on their websites?
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13:52:42 <Levent> (our website) is no longer exists. and i dont have additional contact at the moment. but thanks. damn we was playing coolest openttd with coolest community :/ any CDIS running server you know?
13:53:10 <planetmaker> sorry, no
13:53:25 <planetmaker> I doubt even there's any around
13:54:31 <planetmaker> but the forum seems still to be online
13:54:54 <planetmaker> though interestingly I get a warning from my FF extension 'web of trust' that that page has a bad fame ;-)
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14:12:54 <peter1138> heh
14:12:59 <peter1138> CDIS?
14:13:17 <planetmaker> peter1138: cargodist + infra sharing
14:15:47 <narf0> planetmaker I would like to speak to the person which made the symbian port, he's nick is Wolf. Do you know him maybe?
14:22:35 <planetmaker> there's sometimes a wolf here. But I've no clue whether he's the author or not
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14:30:19 <narf0> How can this be so complicated for me yet nearly everyone interested on this forum has runned this game without no problems
14:32:07 <planetmaker> did you try to just copy the files to the required paths yourself?
14:33:52 <Ammler> "... without no problems"
14:34:35 <planetmaker> :-D
14:47:42 <narf0> *without problems
14:48:42 <narf0> planetmaker as I said before the author didn't say about where to place stuff
14:51:08 <Eddi|zuHause> if the binary creator did not screw up things too much, the directory structure from the readme should apply
14:55:24 <narf0> it's not like the one in readme because openttd.cfg supose to be in the same dir as data and gm
14:55:47 <narf0> okay so i understand why is this not supported
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15:03:00 <Ammler> narf0: there are different possible locations for the cfg
15:03:22 <narf0> Ammler yeah i know, okay i have no idea how shuld this be setup
15:04:16 <narf0> as i said, wolf wasn't so kind to explain installation procedure i more than a few words.
15:04:38 <Ammler> what error do you get, when you start openttd
15:05:12 <narf0> either that there are no lang files or no sound files, and all's in place
15:05:36 <Ammler> where is opengfx?
15:06:04 <narf0> im using the files from the dos game
15:06:15 <narf0> i thought it will wokr then
15:06:25 <Ammler> try with opengfx first
15:06:48 <narf0> okay i'll start by reinstaling the app in the phone.
15:11:17 <narf0> Ammler so as i have the game installed on linux, just copy whole /usr/share/openttd/data ?
15:11:56 <Ammler> no
15:12:02 <narf0> (i have openttd installed + opengfx + opensfx + open midi music)
15:12:03 <Ammler> use the zip
15:12:09 <narf0> what zip?
15:12:31 <Ammler> I assume, it is linked on the symbian thread?
15:12:57 <narf0> theres no zip there
15:12:58 <narf0>
15:13:19 <planetmaker> @ports
15:13:19 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
15:13:21 <narf0> there's only symbian instalation package file (sis)
15:13:54 <Ammler> openttd.sisx
15:14:19 <narf0> are the snd files optional
15:14:40 <narf0> ok by the way, the installer created 'data' for me with some stuff
15:14:47 <narf0> only left gm empty
15:14:54 <narf0> gm is optional?
15:15:25 <Ammler> "You will need to put original ttd data files in e:\openttd\data\ directory. Memory card is required."
15:15:25 <planetmaker> the only thing additionally needed is a graphics base set
15:16:01 <Ammler> but I assume, you could also use ogfx
15:16:18 <Ammler> (but unpacked)
15:17:29 <Ammler> hmm, is symbian dos based?
15:17:39 <Ammler> or how come that strange path?
15:18:05 <Ammler> and btw., it is not the same wolf which is on irc
15:18:19 <narf0> i have data dir with files: openttdd.grf, openttdw.grf, opntitle.dat, orig_dos_de.obg, orig_dos.obg, orig_dos.obs, oig_win.obg, orig_win.obs
15:18:22 <narf0> enough?
15:18:33 <planetmaker> no
15:18:40 <narf0> symbian is based on a os called epoch
15:18:42 <planetmaker> you're missing a graphics base set
15:18:51 <narf0> which is what?
15:19:01 <planetmaker> OpenGFX or TTD-original
15:19:50 <MNIM> why have they not included opengfx standard?
15:20:10 <Ammler> that would double the package size
15:20:45 <narf0> opengfx.obg opensfx.obs ogfxt_toyland.grf ogfxi_logos.grf no_sound.obs ogfx1_base.grf ogfxc_arctic.grf ogfxe_extra.grf ogfxh_tropical.grf
15:20:48 <narf0> these?
15:20:55 <MNIM> well yeah, but 50% package with 0% functionality is a 100% waste
15:21:08 <Ammler> and then others ask why isn't OpenSFX packed in, that would trible the size
15:21:12 <Alberth> more like triple or quadruple
15:21:23 <glx> opengfx won't work for this version I think
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15:21:38 <MNIM> you don't need the sfx, but you will need gfx
15:21:39 <glx> clue being openttdd and openttdw
15:21:39 <Alberth> MNIM: but most people update from the previous version, and they don't need the graphics
15:22:08 <Ammler> glx: that is quite far apart :-)
15:22:12 <narf0> okay what should i copy then?
15:22:36 <MNIM> oh wait, I think Im getting too used to linux
15:22:54 <MNIM> I was gonna say "yeah duh, just add it to the dependencies"
15:23:06 <Ammler> where it is
15:23:22 <narf0> maybe this: trg1r.grf trgcr.grf trghr.grf trgir.grf trgtr.grf ?
15:23:25 <Ammler> else you should report that to your distro package maintainer
15:23:40 <MNIM> it's optional in my buntu, I think
15:23:55 <Ammler> it should be at least recommend
15:24:16 <glx> narf0: and trg* yes
15:24:17 <Alberth> narf0: those are copyrighted
15:24:40 <MNIM> well, so is opengfx. ;)
15:24:51 <glx> or opengfx but not the latest version
15:24:54 <Ammler> glx: support for opengfx is in since 0.7? openttd.grf is in 1.2 only?
15:25:11 <narf0> Alberth well cool dude, so I'll copy the opengfx ones right?
15:25:21 <MNIM> Hmmmmh.
15:25:25 <glx> Ammler: openttdd and openttdw (before it was replaced by extra)
15:25:25 <MNIM> what do you thinK?
15:25:28 <Alberth> you make me happy
15:25:35 <MNIM> should I watch james bond or LOTR?
15:27:09 <narf0> what are music files?
15:27:19 <narf0> midis?
15:27:20 <Ammler> glx: replaced by extra?
15:27:43 <narf0> ok i know
15:28:01 <Ammler> openttdd.grf and w is replaced by openttd.grf (always use dos)
15:28:01 <glx> there was a dos and windows version for extra (openttdd.grf and openttdw.grf)
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15:29:17 <narf0> Do .gm files go to data directory or gm directory?
15:29:22 <glx> in gm
15:29:53 <narf0> thanks
15:31:06 <planetmaker> glx: and now it's called just openttd.grf ;-)
15:31:50 <glx> right, but maybe some stuff was added/changed after the dos/windows merge
15:32:10 <planetmaker> quite certainly
15:32:21 <narf0> okay thanks for help everyone, guess I'll have to play on my netbook.
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15:32:38 <glx> so a recent ogfx could fail for an older openttd version
15:33:06 <planetmaker> no, not really
15:33:12 <planetmaker> why should it?
15:33:27 <glx> I say could
15:33:39 <planetmaker> well, why?
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15:33:56 <planetmaker> the base set definitions didn't change and OpenTTD ignores unknown action5 sprites
15:34:16 <planetmaker> that has nothing to do with the openttdw / openttdd change
15:34:24 <planetmaker> which only affects users of the TTD base set
15:34:47 <V453000> \o/
15:35:09 <narf0> lol the game loaded Oo
15:35:19 <glx> so it works
15:35:31 <glx> if you see intro it's ok
15:36:19 <planetmaker> the important change between 0.7.x and 1.0.x is the introduction of base sound sets (and music sets), thus is not needed for 1.0.0 and later
15:36:53 <narf0> once again i'm learning the architecture of something just to run it :D
15:37:14 <narf0> Not to mention i learned how is midi working on linux to have music :)
15:38:23 <Rubidium> any proper linux distribution installs everything needed when you install openttd via their package manager
15:39:08 <narf0> nope
15:39:11 <narf0> archlinux
15:39:38 <Rubidium> so it's not one that's done properly
15:39:40 <narf0> the whole midi thing (150+ MB) is not a dependency i guess
15:40:09 <narf0> It's actually one of the best distributions.
15:41:28 <narf0> It's just universal so nothing is built in. On ubuntu you also need to install the midi soft syntetiser
15:42:43 <Rubidium> narf0: Gentoo is the one where nothing is built in
15:43:18 <Rubidium> e.g. for archlinux openttd you still need to get e.g. libicu (which is like 20+ MiB)
15:43:52 <narf0> Rubidium Arch too, from the start it has the kernel, modules, startup scripts, some development tools, basic stuff like networking tools
15:43:58 <narf0> bare bones
15:44:20 <narf0> Rubidium i didnt need libicu
15:44:26 <Rubidium> but to install openttd on archlinux you still need to install icu
15:44:38 <narf0> I didnt notice
15:44:39 <Rubidium> or at least if you take archlinux's OpenTTD binary
15:45:26 <narf0> Depends On : libpng sdl icu fontconfig lzo2 hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
15:45:38 <narf0> oh, yep, there we have it
15:46:19 <narf0> of cource i have the binary distribution, thats way quicker than compiling :)
15:46:22 <Rubidium> in Debian/Ubuntu it would recommend opengfx and opensfx so they are (generally) installed as well, but you can choose to not install them
15:46:41 <narf0> so is on arch
15:46:48 <narf0> Depends On : libpng sdl icu fontconfig lzo2 hicolor-icon-theme desktop-file-utils
15:46:49 <Rubidium> so why doesn't it make use of it?
15:47:01 <narf0> Optional Deps : openttd-opengfx: free graphics openttd-opensfx: free soundset
15:47:18 <narf0> it does it does, im using it
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15:48:41 <Rubidium> then why all the discussion about when to install those things?
15:48:55 <narf0> what discusion?
15:49:48 <Rubidium> e.g. the listing of a number of files and asking whether it's enough
15:50:02 <narf0> i was talking about symbian port
15:50:13 <narf0> i have bi problems with the linux version'
15:50:19 <narf0> *no
15:50:54 <Rubidium> isn't that ancient?
15:51:11 <narf0> What?
15:51:16 <Rubidium> the symbian port
15:51:34 <narf0> It is.
15:51:51 <narf0> I was looking for some fun things to do with my nokia
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15:56:03 <narf0> The game's fairly playable, it's a little hard with this low resolution though (320x240)
15:59:09 <planetmaker> with new(er) versions that'd be a problem with the newgrf config dialogue
15:59:19 <planetmaker> and the multiplayer join dialogue
15:59:58 <narf0> it doesnt support multiplayer
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16:01:38 <narf0> nope it's unplayable, waste of time and battery :
16:01:41 <narf0> :)
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16:09:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22670 /trunk/src/landscape.cpp: -Change: Do not spawn explosion effects when bulldozing in paused mode. They block the view.
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16:18:28 <andythenorth> so 'normal' players can't change grf parameters during gameplay?
16:18:36 <Eddi|zuHause> yep
16:19:26 <andythenorth> hmm
16:19:45 <andythenorth> that means (e.g.) if you find HEQS running costs are too high, you just lose your game :P
16:19:51 <andythenorth> or can't use HEQS in it
16:20:02 <andythenorth> maybe these cost parameters are a flawed idea
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16:21:14 <andythenorth> costs seem to be an area beset with difficulties
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16:33:01 <planetmaker> they aren't a bad idea. But they should be balanaced against default vehicles
16:33:21 <andythenorth> I did think of working out some kind of baselines
16:33:23 <planetmaker> then a one-time setting of base costs solves any issue instead of having the player configure it for every newgrf specifically
16:33:36 <andythenorth> in cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
16:33:47 <planetmaker> base line = default vehicles.
16:34:02 <planetmaker> anything else is not a base line really, but yet another "my idea on costs rulez" thing
16:34:09 <andythenorth> hmm
16:34:29 <andythenorth> it's quite unsatisfactory at the moment.
16:34:42 <andythenorth> but at least better than when every grf could mess with every other grf :)
16:34:57 <planetmaker> note: I don't say that default cost balance is better than any other. But it's there and it's a kind of common standard
16:35:11 <planetmaker> And I only argue for default settings to match them
16:35:23 <planetmaker> players being able to choose differently... probably a good idea
16:36:42 <planetmaker> But I'd like indeed one global switch to adjust price levels
16:37:06 <planetmaker> actually... within one grf the cost-to-performance balance you just stated might still make sense
16:37:24 <planetmaker> as it surely can be adjusted to default vehicle levels
16:38:14 <andythenorth> I would have thought so
16:38:26 <andythenorth> costs are already just a ratio, not actual cost
16:38:53 <andythenorth> maybe we should peg it to the same measures used for the cargo payment graphs
16:39:10 <andythenorth> it would need to be factored for flat vs. terrain
16:39:11 <andythenorth> that is tricksy
16:40:05 <planetmaker> Why would vehicle costs need to consider the terrain?
16:40:14 <planetmaker> That sounds like at least one level of over-engineering
16:40:16 <andythenorth> they don't
16:40:20 <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:40:35 <andythenorth> I was thinking about cost-per-ton-per-speedunit
16:40:43 <andythenorth> but speedunit varies by slope
16:40:57 <planetmaker> sounds awefully complicated
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16:41:09 <planetmaker> especially as it fails as soon as people change the slope ingame ;-)
16:41:43 <planetmaker> or maybe already when changed away from default prior to start - not sure whether that variable can be newgrf-read
16:41:52 <andythenorth> your basic RL transport cost is usually expressed in terms of cost-per-tonmile
16:42:03 <andythenorth> but you also need to consider the ruling grade on the route
16:42:14 <andythenorth> which defines the hp-per-ton required
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16:42:32 <andythenorth> and then you'll get a transit time for the route, which matters for time-sensitive cargo
16:42:41 <andythenorth> I am thinking about charts, not setting costs now :)
16:43:04 <andythenorth> trying to think how to compare vehicles *across* different sets
16:43:05 <planetmaker> ok... and the issue you try to solve or visualize?
16:43:12 <planetmaker> ah, ok
16:43:33 <andythenorth> so is HEQS dump truck better or worse than eGRVTs highway truck etc
16:43:42 <andythenorth> probably way too detailed for gameplay
16:44:02 <planetmaker> well, there's two things: purchase price / vehicle lifetime; cargo price * capacity / running costs * speed
16:44:05 <planetmaker> or something like that
16:44:13 <andythenorth> yup
16:45:11 <planetmaker> one might factor in also refittability. Track type (--> infrastructure costs)
16:45:54 <Eddi|zuHause> infrastructure costs heavily depend on the amount of vehicles
16:46:43 <supermop> well if heqs lets you drive on cheaper roads, they should cost more. but at present that's not possible
16:47:05 <planetmaker> why should they cost more?
16:47:09 <planetmaker> they're slow
16:47:49 <supermop> those big bumpy tires
16:47:54 <planetmaker> the difficulty in balancing things is that it's not a simple two-point scaling issue
16:48:05 <andythenorth> it's n dimensional
16:48:07 <andythenorth> :P
16:48:14 <planetmaker> quite so, yes
16:48:25 <andythenorth> and varies by every combination of grfs a player might want
16:48:30 <andythenorth> plus their taste for difficulty
16:48:56 <planetmaker> also. Though the taste for difficulty can IMHO be adjusted by other grfs and means than the vehicle grfs themselves
16:49:03 <planetmaker> and should actually
16:49:44 <andythenorth> maybe Oz Trans has it right with can world
16:49:45 <andythenorth> :P
16:50:14 <planetmaker> well, who cares?
16:51:36 * andythenorth does
16:51:44 <andythenorth> somewhat
16:52:38 <planetmaker> IMHO the last statement made clear again that it's better to not care ;-)
16:52:43 <planetmaker> (of his)
16:53:06 <planetmaker> and that all the work put into that set will be mostly wasted work
16:53:36 <andythenorth> hmm
16:53:39 <narf0> Can I rotate in ttd?
16:53:45 <andythenorth> are we going to take over eGRVTS?
16:53:53 <narf0> i mean in 90 deg steps
16:53:54 <andythenorth> the license allows
16:53:59 <andythenorth> and it's been broken too long
16:54:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I don't think that'll be an issue. Zephyris certainly would not mind. Just ask him
16:54:35 <planetmaker> He'll be helpful and glad, I guess
16:54:37 <andythenorth> I already did :)
16:54:41 <planetmaker> ok :-)
16:54:43 <andythenorth> it would need converting to nml
16:54:54 <planetmaker> he :-P
16:55:08 <andythenorth> I am not maintaining raw, uncommented nfo :P
16:55:27 <planetmaker> doesn't he have commented sources?
16:55:40 <andythenorth> nope
16:55:47 <planetmaker> :-(
16:55:49 <andythenorth> he prefers raw
16:55:59 <andythenorth> use yexo's conversion script :P
16:56:46 <planetmaker> that'd be a way, surely. Though it might be easier to re-code it from scratch
16:57:09 <planetmaker> and just using the real sprites
16:57:20 <planetmaker> does he have at least the single sprites in single graphics files?
16:57:46 <planetmaker> *real sprites
16:58:12 <andythenorth> not sure about that :)
16:58:20 <andythenorth> grf2html can make them
16:58:29 <planetmaker> right :-)
16:58:42 <planetmaker> but that makes one file for each sprite
16:58:51 <planetmaker> which might be a lot. Or do I mis-remember here?
16:58:59 <andythenorth> it would be a lot :)
16:59:20 <planetmaker> actually... if you dig in OpenGFX sources - you'll find the whole sprites in there :-P
16:59:41 <planetmaker> I got permission to fill in the remaining (toyland) vehicles from egrvts ;-)
16:59:46 <planetmaker> and made liberal use of that
17:00:47 <planetmaker> hm, still there: sprites/png/egrvts.png ;-)
17:01:13 <planetmaker> adding the whole png was easier than cutting everything
17:03:35 <planetmaker> let's say: I'd be all for an update of egrvts. But personally I can't commit to that project now
17:03:49 <andythenorth> me neither :P
17:04:13 <planetmaker> :-)
17:05:53 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you keep your psds in your project in a separate dir, right? Which is not a sub-dir of src or sprites?
17:06:03 <andythenorth> usually /graphics or such
17:06:14 <andythenorth> or /graphics_sources
17:06:58 <planetmaker> hm, ok. I guess that can be made configurable
17:10:32 <Ammler> [18:58] <andythenorth> grf2html can make them <-- not that easy, if grf is build with -c
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17:14:27 <Hellaciouss> hey guys what's up with helicopters? why they so slow?
17:14:56 <planetmaker> super-sonic helicopters are not possible
17:15:07 <Hellaciouss> erm
17:15:11 <Hellaciouss> that's not what I mean
17:15:26 <Hellaciouss> why are 80mph trains running nearly twice as fast as a 200mph heli
17:15:37 <planetmaker> because you set the plane speed factor to 1/4?
17:15:58 <planetmaker> look in the adv. settings for that under vehicles
17:16:30 <planetmaker> 1/4 might be the default to discourage the use of the money-press aircraft a bit in comparison to the other transport types
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17:18:19 <Hellaciouss> hmm, would it be possible to seperate helis from planes when it comes to that option?
17:18:47 <planetmaker> in principle yes. But why? They're just as simple as planes ;-)
17:19:10 <planetmaker> but currently it's not possible
17:19:25 <J4n> why elis disappear after a time
17:19:27 <J4n> h
17:19:33 <planetmaker> it would need someone to write a patch to that end
17:19:40 <J4n> i had a huge infrstructure with heliports
17:19:46 <planetmaker> J4n: 'just because'. It's TTD default
17:19:53 *** mikegrb_ has joined #openttd
17:19:57 <planetmaker> use an aircraft grf which changes that
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17:20:08 <planetmaker> like av8
17:21:19 <planetmaker> cets: update from r39 to r45 done (374 warnings) - <-- @ Eddi|zuHause ;-)
17:21:41 <planetmaker> seems we have work to do in that respect
17:21:56 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, it's kinda spammy with the incomplete swiss and austrian engines
17:21:59 <planetmaker> or JVassie especially wrt SBB
17:22:06 <planetmaker> :-D
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17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22671 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt korean.txt polish.txt):
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 4 changes by Harlequin
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: korean - 5 changes by telk5093
17:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: polish - 7 changes by wojteks86
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18:13:14 * andythenorth had 48 hrs away from internets, and is thinking of repeating it :P
18:14:01 <frosch123> it looked rather like 67 minutes to me
18:16:51 <andythenorth> well maybe prior to that :P
18:17:54 * andythenorth needs to draw those annoying river shores :|
18:20:48 <planetmaker> weren't they like 'done'?
18:22:08 <Ammler> andythenorth: is never "done" :-)
18:22:28 <andythenorth> I didn't do the ones for rivers appearing / disappearing into slopes
18:22:41 <andythenorth> it's another 16 sprites
18:22:50 <andythenorth> all need drawing with rocks and such
18:22:58 * andythenorth plays dicewars instead
18:27:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth: are you sure those sprites are needed at all?
18:27:40 <andythenorth> last time discussed, the answer was "yes"
18:27:52 <andythenorth> apparently it's valid to have rivers on slopes :P
18:28:53 <Ammler> I would rather like diagonal rivers :-P
18:29:04 <andythenorth> Ammler: I am prepared to draw those
18:29:09 <andythenorth> without them, rivers suck
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18:41:45 * andythenorth considers playing the game
18:43:07 <opa> whou, someone actually *plays* the game there, not just developes something for it ;)
18:43:17 <andythenorth> I keep losing
18:43:25 <andythenorth> last three games, bankrupt :(
18:43:36 <andythenorth> not sure how to win
18:44:27 * andythenorth considers setting costs to 'low'
18:44:30 <andythenorth> seems like cheating
18:45:24 <narf0> bye
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18:45:47 * andythenorth plays YACD, TAI, UKRS 2
18:45:54 <andythenorth> the rules are 'PAX only'
18:46:01 <andythenorth> but I can only survive with coal
18:48:43 <planetmaker> calls for a change in the rules ;-)
18:49:00 <planetmaker> though TAI might be the crucial issue
18:49:39 <planetmaker> and... RVs might help ;-)
18:50:12 <andythenorth> no good RVs in 1890 :(
18:50:49 <planetmaker> :-)
18:51:02 * frosch123 plays "make the inhabitants of rüsselsbrücken burst due to too many sweets and drinks"
18:51:04 <planetmaker> *that* might be the main issue then
18:51:12 <planetmaker> hehe
18:54:01 <andythenorth> ooh
18:54:05 <andythenorth> FIRS nightly is broken :)
18:54:11 <andythenorth> brewery is producing ENSP
18:54:23 <andythenorth> from stone, fruit and grain
18:54:31 <andythenorth> how excitink
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18:57:49 * V453000 gives frosch123 respect for playing the almighty and awesome TOYLAND :)
18:59:13 <frosch123> since ogfx i have to catch up with all the years not being able to play it :)
18:59:45 * andythenorth gives up trying to play the game :P
19:11:53 * LordAro always liked the toylands 'Maddogs toyshop' (or whatever it's called)
19:11:54 * V453000 takes all the respect back when seeing replacing the amazing artwork of original toyland with opengfx
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19:19:05 <supermop> the brewery makes beer, which makes miners work harder?
19:19:28 <frosch123> V453000: why? the fizzy drink factory and toy factory are a lot nicer in ogfx
19:19:47 <V453000> 100% disagree
19:20:03 <V453000> zero detail, just like in majority of opengfx
19:20:29 <supermop> ttd gfx are too noisey
19:20:46 <V453000> but very detailed
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19:25:21 <V453000> anyway, I have a question: is it possible to make an articulated wagon that would be 1 tile long and bend in the middle into 2 parts?
19:25:53 <frosch123> yes
19:26:10 <V453000> * I meant half tile long ... just like "standard" wagons
19:26:22 <frosch123> yes
19:26:31 <V453000> :) tthanks
19:27:32 <frosch123> it's interesting that you unrealistic approach results in short bendy wagons, while the realism guys want long non-bendy wagons :p
19:27:53 <V453000> I dont care about any real, just considering what would be useful
19:28:13 <V453000> I want to have all wagons long 0.5 tiles because other lengths tend to have various errors with depot counters etc
19:28:30 <V453000> resulting in quite unpredictable and sad issues with curve lengths and so on
19:28:42 <V453000> but at the same time I think it would be cute to have the wagons shorter
19:28:50 <V453000> so something like the "double" wagon would fit
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19:29:17 <V453000> plus shorter wagons = nicer look when trains are turning :)
19:29:54 <frosch123> that's not necessarily true as long as that specific fs task is open
19:30:19 <V453000> I had a feeling like it is rather hardly fixable
19:30:45 <frosch123> currently 4/8 wagons turn around the spot at the back, not their center
19:31:03 <frosch123> sure it is fixable, savegame conversion is the hard part
19:31:12 <V453000> mhm :)
19:31:19 <V453000> but still
19:31:30 <V453000> having all wagons 0.5 tile long makes it just nice and simple
19:32:01 <V453000> when I play with a train set that has shorter wagons, I literally _never_ know how many wagons to place there so I just click until I overflow the desired train length and then remove one wagon
19:32:36 <V453000> until it just hits for example 3.0 which does not happen always x.x
19:35:26 <Ammler> I also prefer adjacent wagons instead 1tile wagon
19:35:59 <Ammler> it looks like a nice feature, but not sure, if it improves game style
19:38:41 <V453000> it wouldnt change anything really
19:38:53 <V453000> I would just feel like it is more comfortable to play with simplier values
19:46:29 * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:55:59 * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:58:36 * andythenorth loses dicewars
19:59:06 *** andythenorth was kicked by DorpsGek (I won)
19:59:18 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:59:46 <V453000> lol :)
20:00:17 *** bryjen has joined #openttd
20:01:34 * andythenorth loses dicewars
20:01:50 * andythenorth is fed up of dicewars
20:01:58 <MNIM> you loose at life!
20:09:36 <andythenorth> hmm
20:10:13 <andythenorth> planetmaker: do you have time to confirm the FIRS cargos bug?
20:10:24 <andythenorth> from reading the code, I can't see any cause of it
20:16:38 <planetmaker> what's the "firs cargo bug"?
20:17:10 <andythenorth>
20:19:06 <planetmaker> maybe a result of wrong replacement rules
20:19:19 <planetmaker> in either industries or industry tiles
20:19:33 <andythenorth> I read the code for some affected industries
20:19:36 <andythenorth> it looks correct
20:19:40 <andythenorth> I must miss something
20:20:02 <planetmaker> also for the tiles?
20:21:50 <andythenorth> hmm
20:22:14 <andythenorth> the tiles look correct too
20:22:56 <andythenorth> maybe it's a YACD bug
20:23:01 * andythenorth tests trunk
20:23:43 <andythenorth> present also present in trunk
20:24:22 <planetmaker> hm... I have uncommited but faulty changes locally ;-)
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20:31:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: confirmed. Looks all bogus
20:31:55 <andythenorth> I can't see why
20:32:06 <andythenorth> looking at the brewery - all cargos look correct
20:32:16 <andythenorth> looking at the cargos, definitions look ok
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20:36:34 <planetmaker> hm... recycling depot doesn't accept or produce *anything*
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20:47:07 <planetmaker> andythenorth: recycling depot (only) produced recyclables?
20:47:12 <andythenorth> yes
20:47:14 <planetmaker> (or rather: should)
20:47:17 <planetmaker> ok. hm
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20:56:50 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I can't see it :)
20:56:55 <andythenorth> the bug
20:56:59 <andythenorth> in the code :P
20:58:23 * andythenorth -> bed time
20:58:26 <andythenorth> good night
20:58:51 <planetmaker> g'night. I don't see it either
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21:01:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, there are two approaches now: a) patch the articulated callback to allow higher engine IDs, or making the articulated parts independent from the front vehicle, and using a 60+ variable (that i already implemented) to check the front vehicle id from the articulated part
21:02:56 <Eddi|zuHause> the second variant means we have one or more special articulated vehicles that have huge varaction2 chains to select the graphics
21:04:33 <frosch123> <- maybe i should just commit that :p
21:05:32 <frosch123> oh crap, confused the patches
21:05:48 <frosch123> the articulated one actually depends on the version bump
21:06:25 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean the one that comes after the dbset release? :p
21:06:51 <frosch123> it's 30
21:06:55 <frosch123> but it needs the bump
21:07:53 <Eddi|zuHause> you could make a misc grf flag and allow 14 bits vehicle id in the articulated callback, moving the "reverse" bit to bit 15
21:08:03 <Eddi|zuHause> then it doesn't need a bump
21:10:02 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure how useful that will actually be, since there's still 2 bits of the 16 bit vehicle id that can't be returned
21:10:40 <frosch123> pff, you cannot switch directly to animation frames 0xfd to 0xff either
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21:11:58 <frosch123> the grf specs are full of special values which restrict the total range of something more general
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21:12:21 <frosch123> though they are no real restrictions
21:14:25 <Eddi|zuHause> [Di Jan 30 2007] [23:02:22] <Eddi|zuHause2> newgrfs sound like some dirty hack that then gets abused as much as possible
21:14:58 <Eddi|zuHause> this is probably more true than ever :p
21:14:59 <frosch123> well, the roots are a dirty hack that abused ttd memory locations as much as possible
21:15:30 <frosch123> store this value at that memory location, and the vehicle will be faster
21:15:35 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but with the increased flexibility of openttd, the abuses just got bigger :p
21:16:33 <frosch123> well yes, it has always been the goal to add abstract generic stuff, which can be used for whatever the author comes up with
21:16:48 <frosch123> instead of a few presets and then coding everything in ottd
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21:21:39 <Eddi|zuHause> apparently something happened right now...
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21:22:32 * frosch123 concludes the world has not ended then
21:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> looks like japan defeated the USA... so something close ;)
21:26:49 <frosch123> night
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21:27:15 <Terkhen> good night
21:37:22 <planetmaker> g'night Terkhen & all others
21:40:48 <peter1138>
21:40:55 <peter1138> i think that needs some kind of explanation
21:43:08 * Rubidium wonders whether that's one of those Japanese text-to-speech "singers"
21:44:37 <peter1138> vocaloid, so i guess so
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22:47:43 <Eddi|zuHause> "Microsoft developer K. Y. Srinivasan leads the list of contributors to the linux kernel 3.0"
22:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> so the world DID end?
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23:00:08 <__ln__> besides that, even Microsoft is ahead of Canonical on that list.
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23:25:25 <Eddi|zuHause> wtf? traffic light suggestion: "please allow placing no traffic lights"?!?
23:27:02 <supermop> not allowed!
23:27:09 <supermop> you must place traffic lights
23:27:52 <Eddi|zuHause> no, the suggestion was like "when placing traffic light, place only stop signs in 'rural' areas"
23:28:00 <Eddi|zuHause> which kinda defeats the point
23:29:50 <supermop> hmm
23:30:17 <supermop> i guess you could use signs to force vehicles to yield?
23:30:46 <supermop> not sure it it would make a difference in the game
23:30:59 <supermop> i guess it would look cute
23:31:56 <supermop> i think that would be better handled with roadtypes: vehicle entering faster road from slower road yields to vehicles already on faster road
23:32:06 <supermop> or
23:32:36 <supermop> no gameplay effect, but draw yield or stop signs at junctions of different road types
23:32:54 <Eddi|zuHause> there is absolutely no concept of "yielding" in the game
23:33:02 <supermop> yeah
23:33:17 <supermop> im not sure if it would even help if there were
23:34:31 <supermop> i guess if you had realistic acceleration and roadtypes, you might not want a vehicle to pull out at 10 mph onto a 60mph highway, causing the vehicle behind to brake heavily
23:34:44 <supermop> but thats so far off from what we have now
23:35:29 <supermop> better to have road grfs draw fake stop signs that do nothing
23:37:04 <supermop> or draw traffic lights that look like stop signs but behave like lights?
23:37:24 <supermop> i dont really care too much about the issue
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