IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-07
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06:36:16 <Terkhen> good morning
06:36:30 <Markk> Goedemorgen. :)
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07:25:09 <dihedral> good morning
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11:15:52 <andythenorth> hola
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11:23:15 <Chris_Booth> hola
11:23:30 <__ln__> hola
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12:27:07 * andythenorth ponders rivers
12:27:44 * andythenorth got fed up with rivers previously
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12:58:13 <andythenorth> my big towboat in FISH overlaps canal edges horribly :(
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13:11:42 <MNIM> :/
13:12:06 <MNIM> andy: is that new content you're building?
13:13:13 <MNIM> I have to wonder, though, why has nobody of making something like the log tugboat with barges instead of logs
13:13:24 <MNIM> good to hear somebody is working on it though
13:17:41 <andythenorth> MNIM:
13:18:05 <MNIM> hmmmh, neat
13:18:16 <andythenorth> refittable
13:18:20 <andythenorth> 1-5 barges
13:18:47 <MNIM> though I'd put the tugboat in the center of direction of travel
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13:19:38 <MNIM> but that's just my ocdness on vehicles, I suppose. :P
13:20:02 <MNIM> a vehicle is supposed to LOOK good otherwise it'll never drive/float/fly good. :)
13:21:38 <Belugas> hello
13:21:47 <MNIM> 'elleu
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14:16:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22639 /trunk/src/ (engine_type.h newgrf.cpp ship_cmd.cpp): -Feature: [NewGRF] Support for ship props 14/15 (ocean/canal speed fraction).
14:16:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: michi_cc * r22638 /trunk/src/ (water_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Fix: Keep the previous owner of the upper and lower lock parts if they are built on existing water.
14:17:11 <michi_cc> andythenorth: ^^ might be interesting for you
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14:18:57 <peter1138> what about river speed? :)
14:19:29 <MNIM> do they already have something like roadtypes?
14:19:53 <MNIM> it would be nice to have something like nutracks with speedlimits on roads
14:20:34 <michi_cc> Rivers and canals, at least what the NewGRF specs are concerned.
14:20:41 <michi_cc> s/and/are/
14:20:48 <MNIM> sandpath - 16kmh, cobblestones 50, concrete 80, asphalt 140 or something like that.
14:21:03 <dihedral> and who defines that?
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14:28:54 <planetmaker> dihedral, the newgrf, like for railtypes
14:29:22 <planetmaker> but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P
14:29:32 <dihedral> yes, that would make sense :-) but you would want to define it for each vehicle
14:29:39 <dihedral> rather than define it for each road type
14:30:52 <planetmaker> it would just work analoguously to railtypes: vehicles have already a road type (tram vs. road)
14:31:13 <planetmaker> no new concepts needed there at all
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14:31:32 <planetmaker> "just" fixing and defining all the loose ends on where roads interface with other stuff.
14:31:39 <planetmaker> Which are lots.
14:31:52 <planetmaker> even towns... which care not at all about rails
14:32:40 <peter1138> concrete 80km/h?
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14:32:57 <planetmaker> :-) I guess German highways are concrete...
14:33:49 <peter1138> hmm, how would you express "it's cheap but noisy" as a newgrf property? hehe
14:35:21 <planetmaker> well... it could have an effect on town growth if roads had a noise property
14:35:30 <planetmaker> or on LA rating
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14:40:31 <dihedral> yay - noise limit :-P
14:40:42 <dihedral> build this road type or an airport :-D
14:40:43 <dihedral> haah
14:41:40 <dihedral> and a small town starts off with bad roads? and the quality of the roads have an affect on the vehicles reliability?
14:41:43 <dihedral> :-P
14:42:06 <dihedral> and on the goods the vehicle transports
14:42:09 <dihedral> and thus on the pay
14:42:20 <dihedral> unless it transports milkshake
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15:16:47 <andythenorth> michi_cc: :) @22639
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15:29:25 <andythenorth> michi_cc: is there any buy menu window feedback on canal / sea speed?
15:29:34 <andythenorth> or I should just read the source? :P
15:30:10 <supermop> sea speed?
15:30:53 <michi_cc> andythenorth: There isn't for now, but TTDP hasn't either. I did considered it, but displaying a different speed depending on whether the depot is on sea or canal might be too confusing.
15:31:12 <andythenorth> I can add it manually, but it will be a bit odd
15:31:22 <andythenorth> default will say "speed: 16mph"
15:31:30 <andythenorth> then I'll add "canal speed: 14mph"
15:33:00 <supermop> shouldn't small boats go faster on the smooth water of a canal than on a rough speed?
15:33:17 <supermop> like an old-timey british canal boat
15:33:31 <andythenorth> that will be my next question :P
15:33:39 <andythenorth> which boats should go at what speeds where?
15:33:40 <michi_cc> supermop: Why do you think there are two props? :)
15:33:50 <supermop> neat
15:33:51 <andythenorth> but I have to go out now
15:34:12 <andythenorth> bbl
15:34:33 <supermop> rivers will be same as canal?
15:35:03 <michi_cc> Yeah, the NewGRF specs don't differentiate there.
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15:41:50 <supermop> i assume asking for littoral speeds is too hard?
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15:50:35 <Eddi|zuHause> a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed?
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15:53:34 <Eddi|zuHause> <planetmaker> but then... I know that cobblestone's limit is definitely significantly higher than 50km/h :-P <-- that heavily depends on the quality of the road :p
15:53:56 <glx> <Eddi|zuHause> a "lit-toral" is a torus shaped bed? <-- nice one :)
15:56:33 <andythenorth> ok
15:56:39 <andythenorth> so how should ship speeds vary?
15:56:48 <andythenorth> FISH has three classes of boat
15:56:51 <andythenorth> river boats
15:56:56 <andythenorth> coastal vessels
15:57:13 <andythenorth> and boats where it really doesn't matter
15:57:41 <andythenorth> so are canals in game ship canals? or boat canals?
15:57:49 <andythenorth> and is the sea deep, or shallow?
15:59:05 <planetmaker> I'd give the coastal vessels the same speed, but a higher speed for river vessels on rivers (if that's feasible)
15:59:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd make it like this: river ships: fast on rivers, very slow on ocean. ocean ships: fast on ocean, very slow on rivers. "in-between" ships: medium speed on either
15:59:16 <planetmaker> ^
15:59:20 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: that's about what I thought too
15:59:36 <andythenorth> currently it will suck, because there are no rivers
15:59:47 <andythenorth> but the plan is good
15:59:56 <planetmaker> there are canals
15:59:59 <Eddi|zuHause> on rivers it's like: the larger the boat gets, the slower it must be
16:00:06 <planetmaker> and they're treated like rivers wrt speed
16:02:18 <supermop> littoral meaning area near coasts and estuaries
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16:09:02 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth: the issue I see with slow / fast boats is the actual dock, since it can't be both in the sea and in a river one class of ship will have to be slow
16:09:19 <Chris_Booth> or you will need to use 3 ship types
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16:10:28 <supermop> it shouldnt be a problem, docks in rivers would serve river boats primarily, and large ships docking there could reasonable expect to be slowed
16:10:33 <supermop> and vis-versa
16:11:48 <Chris_Booth> but will these ships not hold up other ships? or will it be the case as it is at the moment and they can just drive over each other?
16:11:58 <Lapland> I'm having trouble installing openttd on my ubuntu laptop. I thought I'd just figured everything out, but now when I try to run it it says that there aren't any valid language packs, even though there's a whole directory full of them in the same place the folder I downloaded put them.
16:11:59 <Eddi|zuHause> all ships should be slow while approaching a dock
16:12:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Lapland: you mixed language packs from differrent game versions, this is not possible
16:13:06 <supermop> and yes, currently there seems to be no way preventing ships driving over each other. as long as stations can only have one dock
16:13:24 <Lapland> All right, then. I'll see what I can do about that...
16:13:48 <supermop> it would even be desirable to keep it that way
16:18:52 <Lapland> Eddi|zuHause: I tried clearing and refilling the language files; it didn't help.
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16:20:06 <Terkhen> why did you change the languages at all? the ones included with the version you downloaded are the ones you want
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16:20:14 <Lapland> I just feel like I'm making a huge mess, now- and I /didn't/.
16:20:24 <Terkhen> where did you download openttd?
16:21:32 <Lapland> Um... I guess it was a nightly binary. Maybe I'm forgetting to compile or some such.
16:21:46 <Terkhen> nightlies should have everything you need
16:22:14 <Terkhen> no clue then, for me it's just untar -> run :)
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16:27:38 <Ammler> Lapland: unpack the download in fresh location, do not overwrite existing install
16:38:29 <Lapland> Now I just need to figure out how to uninstall things...
16:42:05 <Ammler> delete the pack, done
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16:47:21 <Eddi|zuHause> "Holland builds most expensive section of highway in the world"
16:47:47 <Lapland> Article link?
16:48:19 <Lapland> I want to know how many kilometers they're putting on pontoons until they finish building windmills to pump out all the water.
16:51:38 <Eddi|zuHause>,1518,772748,00.html <-- but it's in german
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17:25:05 <Wolf01> hello
17:32:09 <andythenorth> if I draw sandy shores for rivers, will the sky fall in?
17:32:17 <andythenorth> I think they look better
17:32:30 <andythenorth> if someone hates it, flood fill them to muddy green :P
17:35:45 <supermop> sounds good
17:36:16 <supermop> so long as all sea shores have sand, rivers might as well be sandy/muddy/gravelly
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17:40:46 <Ammler> no grassy shores are indeed nicer
17:42:59 <andythenorth> Ammler: is that a yes or a no to sand?
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17:43:33 <Ammler> more yes
17:43:44 <Ammler> sand is better as gras
17:44:02 <Ammler> sand is not best :-)
17:44:10 <Alberth> andythenorth: are you aware of smoke clipping problems with a dairy?
17:44:36 <Ammler> andythenorth: but I wont see you rivers anyway
17:44:51 <Ammler> or will you make a ogfx version too?
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22640 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt:
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Tucalipe
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17:50:58 <Alberth> andy got washed away by the river while placing sand :)
17:54:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: as if that stretch of highway ever gets finished ;)
17:55:09 * andythenorth will probably lose connectivity in a minute
17:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: call it the "Duke Nukem Highway" :p
17:55:27 <Rubidium> yeah, when it gets built it'll be terrible
17:55:56 <andythenorth> Alberth: the smoke clipping is a limitation of ottd
17:56:06 <andythenorth> the only fix is to move the chimney
17:56:21 <andythenorth> it glitches on a few industries
17:56:25 <andythenorth> it's annoying :)
17:56:32 <Alberth> so you are aware of it, and it is not your fault :) ok
17:56:58 <andythenorth> I don't fancy moving the graphics around to fix it :|
17:57:18 <andythenorth> I could probably cheat by putting the smoke on another tile, and shifting the z a lot
17:57:33 <andythenorth> instead of shifting x and y of the smoke over the chimney tile
17:57:55 <Alberth> nah, that just hides the problem
17:57:57 <andythenorth> I suppose I could add it to the other 80 FIRS tickets :P
17:58:09 <Lapland> Nuke Nukem? Or Episode 3 Memorial Highway?
17:58:30 <Alberth> better add it to the few 1000 openttd bugs :)
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17:58:46 <andythenorth> Ammler: I won't do opengfx rivers
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18:00:12 <Ammler> then I should not care :-)
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18:52:13 * andythenorth commits crime of 'failing to make a decision'
18:52:39 <andythenorth> muddy green shores might look best for rivers
18:52:54 <andythenorth> I continued with sandy, but when more angles have it, it gets a bit....sandy
18:52:59 <andythenorth> :P
18:53:27 <Lapland> Which could be okay for deserts, but...
18:53:37 <andythenorth> any -1 for dark green mud?
18:57:50 <Lapland> Great, I think I broke Ubuntu by uninstalling OpenTTD the wrong way.
18:59:12 <supermop> greay rocks?
18:59:38 <Eddi|zuHause> Lapland: for how many days have you been using linux?
18:59:40 <Lapland> Isn't that what canals are already?
19:00:16 <Lapland> Eddi|zuHause: Several days, but I've mostly been doing things that aren't too complicated.
19:01:03 <andythenorth> using grey will leave minimum variation from canals
19:01:24 <supermop> more bumpy grey rocks?
19:01:32 <andythenorth> don't think it will work
19:01:47 <supermop> switch to rusty sheet-pile for canals?
19:01:48 <andythenorth> might have found a better route
19:01:55 <supermop> brown mud?
19:01:56 <andythenorth> sometimes forgetting reality helps
19:02:12 <andythenorth> imaging it's an early 90s pixel art game is helpful :P
19:02:24 <supermop> how do the ogfx waves work?
19:02:26 * andythenorth -> to the pixels
19:02:53 <planetmaker> supermop: palette animation
19:04:16 <opa> newest technology :P
19:05:43 <Alberth> opa: unheard of at current colour depths ;)
19:06:32 * Alberth waves hi to planetmaker
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19:13:26 * planetmaker waves also 'hi' @ Alberth :-)
19:14:52 * andythenorth prefers this version
19:15:02 <andythenorth> not sandy, not rocky, not muddy
19:15:09 <andythenorth> just ...shores
19:15:41 <andythenorth> river banks aren't something that should be noticed
19:16:02 * andythenorth will finish those
19:17:00 <Alberth> it takes a bit getting used to, but grassy would be logical given all the other green tiles
19:17:38 <Alberth> s/would be/is/
19:17:51 <andythenorth> there isn't enough pixel space to draw details well
19:18:00 <andythenorth> just a couple of pixels to do a blend between terrain and water
19:18:13 <andythenorth> :)
19:18:17 <Alberth> that makes sense
19:18:30 <supermop> looks better than default already andy
19:18:45 <supermop> i think it is a logical way to show it
19:19:45 * andythenorth hopes it works with other terrains
19:20:18 <andythenorth> it's basically same as FIRS clay pit
19:20:18 <andythenorth> turns out I solved this once already :P
19:26:03 <supermop> maybe i should model some 32bpp sprites
19:26:09 <Lapland> Whenever you realize that you've solved a problem before in a case like this, you're always thrilled, because you're problem's not a problem any more- but then you have to hate yourself, too, for not thinking of it sooner
19:26:33 <supermop> i have a desire to draw some murdered out trucks
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19:32:43 <Chris_Booth> hello
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20:01:32 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Now that is a nice shore :)
20:02:53 <andythenorth> I think it's better :)
20:04:03 <maglev> so what 32bpp sprites do you guys suggest?
20:05:30 <supermop> some murdered out trucks that i havent yet drawn
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20:26:55 <andythenorth> there seem to be numerous river sprites in this sprite sheet that aren't used
20:27:22 <andythenorth>
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20:32:06 <Rubidium> I guess the associated nfo might be more interesting; seems like some are for level 0 or something like that
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20:34:18 <Rubidium> oh, it's just one blob of sprites ?!?
20:36:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22641 /trunk/src/table/engines.h: -Fix (r22639): Warning about uninitialised fields.
20:36:44 <andythenorth> Rubidium: yeah, I'm guessing it's sourced from a decompiled grf
20:36:52 <andythenorth> I have split it into climates to be a bit more sane
20:37:26 <andythenorth> there are a lot of sprites that seem to be duplicate
20:37:35 <andythenorth> some are for river + coasts, but not all
20:38:47 <Rubidium> the duplication seems to be only really useful for the last 4 sprites (sloped ones)
20:38:53 <andythenorth> yup
20:39:14 <andythenorth> I couldn't find any spec on what's actually required for rivers
20:39:27 <Rubidium> neither can I
20:39:55 <andythenorth> what fun :)
20:40:07 <Rubidium> besides what openttd's code says
20:40:49 <andythenorth> there's always that :)
20:40:53 <andythenorth> is it canonical? :P
20:41:05 <Rubidium> anyhow, offsets (per slope) are flat: 0, se: 12, ne: 24, sw: 36, nw: 48
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20:41:39 <frosch123> there are 12 per slope
20:41:43 <frosch123> 4 borders
20:41:52 <Rubidium> and I reckon the sprites *after* the first 12 are just to make it look nice on all the other slopes you can build rivers on
20:41:58 <frosch123> 4 inner corners, 4 outer corners
20:45:15 <Rubidium> andythenorth:
20:45:30 <andythenorth> ok cool
20:45:41 <andythenorth> my test scenario misses some cases
20:45:46 <andythenorth> thanks
20:53:30 <Wolf01> 'night
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20:54:11 <Terkhen> good night
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21:52:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22642 /trunk/src/newgrf_gui.cpp: -Change: Disable the 'set parameters' button in the NewGRF GUI, if the GRF specifies to have no parameters and one would not be able to set any parameters anyway.
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