IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-07-04
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00:10:25 <caracal> what's the secret to ships, btw? i've never been able to make any money with them, just too danged slow
00:11:22 <caracal> with roads, it's busses and build huge fleets of anything else ... with planes, it's go long distances ... with rail, it's anything goes as long as the trains run on time ... but ships? always lose money with them
00:13:19 <Eddi|zuHause> don't use the default ships, use a newgrf like FISH
00:13:39 <alluke> default ships are rubbish
00:13:46 <caracal> hmm ... that may be my problem
00:14:17 <caracal> in most scenarios i've seen, "big" is the only kind of ship there is, until sometime later some smaller varieties become available
00:14:39 <caracal> i tried ships in Hawaii, but the distances are just too great
00:15:12 <alluke> 1080 ton coaster in fish is great for long distances
00:15:20 <caracal> and ships are hideously expensive, too
00:15:39 <caracal> i think the game's goal is to prove that trains are better than anything else ;)
00:15:52 <Eddi|zuHause> use ships for things that don't really decay in price rates. coal, ore and stuff
00:16:26 <Eddi|zuHause> best if you transfer from multiple sources, so you have large capacity on the ships
00:16:47 <caracal> yeah, that would make sense, and yet i can't seem to make them work ... just need to try smarter, i guess
00:17:08 <caracal> tried shipping oil in Svalbard, but lost money every time
00:17:49 <caracal> and yet you keep reading about "shipping magnates" being fabulously rich
00:18:02 <caracal> well, in this case it was from coastal oilfields
00:18:24 <caracal> and there's a big mountain in the middle of the island that makes trains ... harder
00:19:15 <caracal> and it wasn't a very long route, either, just the ships were so danged *slow*
00:19:49 <caracal> plus they get lost in the open ocean, and can't find their way around some land, so i had to build several buoys
00:20:29 <caracal> i'll try them again sometime, but am having too much fun with planes right now <g>
00:21:14 <alluke> enabled oil rigs in my current game
00:21:22 <alluke> may ships some oil later ;)
00:22:14 <caracal> yeah, i was playing the netherlands a few days ago, all those tantalizing oil rigs off the coast ... but flying passengers to them with helos is a losing proposition, i've found
00:22:42 <caracal> for one thing, without ships to pick up their oil, they keep closing
00:23:42 <caracal> but even when they stay open, there's no money to be made flying passengers to/from them
00:24:08 <alluke> i wish ogfx+ trees would support tropic better :/
00:24:35 <alluke> now all trees are just palms
00:25:23 <alluke> but i aint using it in this game anyway
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12:02:55 <MNIM> anythinng interesting lately?
12:05:44 <_bl0kem> idling up 23% in the latest polls
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13:11:29 <_bl0kem> time spent idling in channels has increased 23%
13:12:21 <_bl0kem> www.ircstats.org/stats/2356578/view.html
14:02:35 <_bl0kem> this just in... new facebook viral spam has dynamic content creation
14:08:35 <Belugas> god enough a reason not to get on facebook :)
14:13:34 <_bl0kem> Yea i just have a blank profile to survey my surroundings
14:15:25 <Belugas> i'm more into the "don't touch it" mentality
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14:53:46 <dihedral> Belugas, i am more in the "damage done"
14:54:33 <_bl0kem> and i in the 'social pariah'
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15:06:26 * andythenorth works on firs nfo->nml conversion
15:07:58 <andythenorth> pasting 54k lines into a textarea crashes Safari :P
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16:26:54 * andythenorth has learnt a new word
16:27:19 <andythenorth> which is much shorter than saying "relying on referencing something by its position in an array is fricking stupid"
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16:43:00 <andythenorth> Why? You lost all your apostrophes? Why blame lakie for that? :)
16:47:05 <alluke> my birthday persent :(
16:49:07 <Lakie> Heh, well the set isn't particularly finished, I did the last of the steamers last week. Currently working on a bit a week.
16:49:24 <Lakie> (By last, I mean adding 3-4 steamers in one go)
16:49:51 <alluke> at least something is happening
16:50:04 <Lakie> Just needs putting on devzone at somepoint
16:50:44 <Lakie> hopefully by lang files
16:51:03 <Lakie> Currently for simplicity just 'tr1' ('type').
16:51:18 <alluke> i dont think they need anything else
16:51:28 <Lakie> But that will be changable (hopefully fairly simply)
16:51:50 <DanMacK> Not going with Nicknames?
16:52:04 <Lakie> I'm leaving the setting of the engine names to you DanMacK
16:52:17 <Lakie> As I add them I'll just put engine names for simplicity
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16:53:22 <alluke> how about early wagons?
16:53:29 * andythenorth reworks FIRS sugar refinery, which is crappy currently
16:53:41 <andythenorth> does anyone actually use the sugar refinery? I never deliver to it
16:53:46 * DanMacK was thinking Class "Nickname" 0-0-0 (ie Tk3 "Pikku-Jumbo" 2-8-0)
16:54:01 * DanMacK thinks it has a place in a tropical setting
16:54:12 <andythenorth> sugar beets are big where I grew up
16:54:16 <andythenorth> and in central europe
16:54:23 <DanMacK> What about the early wagons?
16:54:30 <DanMacK> Where did you grow up?
16:54:37 <alluke> make the sugar beet change to cane in tropical
16:55:04 <alluke> you can play as brazil sugar baron :P
16:55:30 <Lakie> I put in the FO, Po and E, I think from memory
16:55:49 <Lakie> I was going to deal with the proper cargo ones next as they need cargo tables and planning
16:58:18 <alluke> cant see pic on the site
17:03:07 <Lakie> Ok, its the Ei, Po and FO's in game
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17:10:47 <alluke> how do i get tiny desert village grow
17:11:11 <alluke> im already carrying passengers, mail, and water
17:16:07 <frosch123> you need both water and food
17:17:15 <alluke> doesnt accept food yet
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17:36:35 <frosch123> iirc funding buildings circumvents the cargo requirements
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17:40:15 <andythenorth> doesn't funding go via the 'is town allowed to grow' method?
17:42:19 <andythenorth> I dunno, I'm guessing
17:42:24 <andythenorth> I could go read /src
17:43:21 <alluke> its growing now a little
17:43:42 <andythenorth> the wiki page on town growth has something about it
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r22632 /trunk/src/lang/brazilian_portuguese.txt:
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:29 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 2 changes by Luis_Mizuchiro
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18:14:26 <Hirundo> frosch123: yesterday's short discussion about station random action2 made me wonder about industries
18:14:46 <frosch123> for industries random stuff is implemented
18:14:48 <Hirundo> Currently OpenTTD only reseeds the tile-specific bits
18:14:54 <alluke> the rail bug isnt only isr issue
18:15:49 <Hirundo> The specs state "The triggers are the same for both: " which sortof implies that industry random bits can also be reseeded, but it's not really clear
18:16:22 <frosch123> triggering the industry means triggering all tiles at once
18:17:02 <frosch123> well, i guess there are only triggers for the tiles
18:17:51 <frosch123> oh, i think i get what you mean
18:18:19 <Hirundo> That implies that Industry::random_triggers is bogus
18:18:35 * andythenorth draws rough river shores
18:18:40 <andythenorth> not 100% successful
18:18:48 <andythenorth> really the issue is that rivers need to curve more
18:18:51 <andythenorth> but that's not game style
18:19:05 <Hirundo> TriggerIndustry is just a wrapper for a tileloop, indeed
18:20:32 <frosch123> well, yes, but DoTriggerIndustryTile() only modifies tile bits
18:20:46 <frosch123> let's see what ttdp does
18:27:38 <frosch123> i don't see ttdp doing something different
18:29:39 <alluke> what if u code rivers to go like rails
18:29:41 <frosch123> ttdp does first a loop over all tiles, triggering each tile, and then also updates the industry bits (which is missing from ottd)
18:29:44 <alluke> you can ge more curves
18:29:52 <frosch123> but ttdp does not call the industry action3 either
18:30:14 <frosch123> i guess it ORs all rerandomisation bits of the tiles
18:30:41 <Hirundo> and then, reseed that part of the industry random bits?
18:32:36 <frosch123> yes, it reseeds those bits of the industry, which at least one tile action123-chain requested reseeding for
18:32:53 <frosch123> so, the triggers only apply to tiles, but also affect the random bits of industries
18:35:33 <Hirundo> I'll add a note to the wiki
18:35:46 <frosch123> i'll implement it :p
18:37:01 <Rubidium> andythenorth: looks great to me
18:37:33 <Hirundo> division of labour :)
18:37:36 <frosch123> Hirundo: actually this only seems to apply to triggers 1 and 2 (which are called for all tiles)
18:37:46 <frosch123> trigger 0 does not seem to update the random bits of the industry
18:37:50 <andythenorth> I await comment from Eddi|zuHause
18:37:59 <andythenorth> as it was his request
18:38:56 <Hirundo> So only if (waiting_triggers | new_trigger) & 0x06 != 0 ?
18:39:01 <frosch123> i wonder whether this is a bug in ttdp as well
18:39:21 <frosch123> no, only when they actually trigger
18:39:48 <frosch123> so, new_trigger & 0x06
18:40:13 <frosch123> so, if 0 is waiting, it would actually change the industry bits :o
18:40:23 <frosch123> which makes it even more look like a bug
18:41:04 <MNIM> when you order a vehicle to transfer, does the destination still use its resources if it accepts it?
18:41:54 <MNIM> (like it would with just 'unload all'
18:42:51 <Hirundo> no, transfer is intended to move the cargo to the station, even if it is accepted
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18:57:07 <frosch123> oh, this reseeding of the related object's bit is actually unique to industries
18:57:12 <frosch123> vehicles do it different
18:57:54 <Hirundo> Then how does it work for vehicles?
19:00:04 <MNIM> It would be nice if vehicle titles would display a load percentage
19:00:56 <frosch123> looks like vehicles can only change their own bits
19:01:10 <frosch123> the related / self thingie only applies to waiting triggers
19:02:03 <frosch123> luckily airports and objects have no triggers yet :p
19:02:09 <Hirundo> So a vehicle can change its own bits, based on the triggers of another vehicle?
19:03:37 <frosch123> i wonder whether type 84 makes any sense with reseeding
19:05:21 <frosch123> yeah 84 also only affects reading of random bits, and reading and setting of triggers
19:05:43 <frosch123> at least in ottd, let's compare with ttdp
19:06:23 <Hirundo> tbh, I always wondered, if random action2 made any sense.... (at least the CB 1 mechanism)
19:07:06 <frosch123> hehe, yeah. at least i very much opposed the addition of type 84 back then
19:09:19 <Hirundo> A 60+x var that gets the random bits of other vehicles in the chain might make more sense, exp. now we have var 7B
19:09:24 <MNIM> hmmmmmh. andythenorth, If it is not too late to do so, Id suggest making the beaches for rivers visibly smaller than sea shores, but still winding and irregular
19:09:43 <andythenorth> it is not too late to do so
19:10:42 <andythenorth> I tried using rocks instead of sandy shore, but it doesn't look right
19:10:55 <MNIM> hmmmh, oh yeah. got a bit skewed when comparing to original river.
19:11:33 <MNIM> to be honest, I don't mind the original rivers apart from the fact that they're straighter than a ruler
19:13:18 <alluke> those rivers look nice but they wont fit elsewhere than original ttd terrain
19:13:28 <MNIM> I think what thexfile means is that he wants a suspended monorail as railtype, not as roadtype
19:13:37 <andythenorth> alluke: what would you suggest instead?
19:14:24 <alluke> drawing them in ogfx style too?
19:14:42 <andythenorth> but then they won't fit original ttd terrain
19:15:36 <andythenorth> so draw two sets of rivers?
19:16:47 <Ammler> andythenorth: psd with different layers
19:17:30 <andythenorth> does a psd with different layers help?
19:18:07 <andythenorth> rapids are fast moving sections of water found on rivers
19:18:14 <Ammler> gimp can make pngs from it
19:18:37 <alluke> i mean the sloped river tiles
19:18:55 <MNIM> the only thing is that you need to shift both shores a little, since the upper shore looks really steep while the lower shore looks really too gentle in comparison
19:19:23 <Ammler> maybe you could also make different river shores and use random?
19:19:56 <Ammler> also try to make a lake
19:20:07 <andythenorth> MNIM: I'll try that
19:20:19 <andythenorth> Ammler: make your own lake :)
19:20:22 <andythenorth> check out the grf
19:20:33 <Ammler> I meant to see how your graphics fit :-P
19:21:16 <andythenorth> that's what I mean
19:21:18 <Ammler> IMO, your shores are to small
19:21:59 <Ammler> such a big ship does not need to fit one one tile rifer, necessary, does it?
19:21:59 <andythenorth> you want more sand?
19:22:34 <alluke> you can always build larger rivers
19:22:54 <alluke> so one tile should be narrow enough for smaller boat
19:23:02 <Ammler> andythenorth: around 3 pixels on both sides :-)
19:23:20 <andythenorth> Ammler: so same as coasts?
19:23:23 <MNIM> it would be nice to be able to build rivers in-game
19:23:51 <Ammler> andythenorth: not just sand, could also be grass
19:23:55 <alluke> but you can do it in scenario editor
19:24:13 <alluke> just rename the save file to .scn, mod it, and rename back to .sav
19:24:19 <Ammler> I am not aware of rivers with sand shores
19:24:22 <andythenorth> Ammler: they can't be physically larger
19:24:23 <MNIM> yeah, but I don't like having to switch all the time
19:24:44 <alluke> could the shores be different in different climates
19:24:57 <frosch123> hmm, you can say about ottd not complying to newgrf specs what you want, but ttdp is just as broken :p
19:25:52 <Ammler> opengfx has already rivers, not that nice ones, but it has
19:26:04 <Ammler> so then why do you ask?
19:26:28 <alluke> i meant those new ones
19:26:49 <alluke> like sandy shores on desert and grassy in the rainforest
19:27:19 <Ammler> no idea, how much different they can be in the same climate
19:27:25 <alluke> or stone on arctic and ice on snow
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19:34:18 <Hirundo> doesn't ttdp consider itself the reference implementation of the specs?
19:41:46 <andythenorth> fascinating discussion on rivers can wait until another day
19:42:49 <devilsadvocate_> Hirundo: doesnt everyone, everywhere, consider themselves the refernece implementation?
19:43:04 <andythenorth> when it comes to river sprites, apparently yes
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19:47:13 <Alberth> devilsadvocate_: nah, I am not the reference implementation of me :)
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20:11:43 <Ammler> that was default in pre 1.0 and changed
20:12:22 <Alberth> sorry, no idea what you are saying :)
20:12:33 <Ammler> I accidentially sliped in that thread, I usually do nothing there
20:12:57 <Ammler> pf.yapf.rail_firstred_twoway_eol = on$
20:13:42 <Alberth> oh, a yapf setting :o
20:14:09 <Ammler> yes, that is off now per default
20:14:14 <Alberth> amazing what those players know :D
20:14:30 <Alberth> thanks for explaining
20:14:43 <Ammler> I am not sure, if that situation in his image would work with it
20:15:03 <Ammler> but I made such depot buffers already
20:15:33 <Alberth> hmm, is that a compability setting with the original program perhaps?
20:16:33 <Alberth> I seem to remember that ttdx used to treat 2way signals differently (unfortunately I found out after I was finished playing with it :( )
20:25:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22633 /trunk/src/ (newgrf.cpp newgrf_railtype.cpp rail.h table/railtypes.h): -Fix: Implement variables 25 and 7F for railtypes.
20:28:18 <Ammler> Alberth: that is not just compatibility, it is mandatory for our gameplay
20:28:49 <Ammler> we need quite a lot to "force" trains taking a redirect :-)
20:32:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22634 /trunk/src/ (13 files): -Codechange: Deduplicate some code. Note that zeroing 'count' is intentionally removed, it is only used together with 'scope'.
20:37:41 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22635 /trunk/src/ (5 files): -Fix: Correctly reseed random bits of industries and industry tiles.
20:42:53 <frosch123> I wonder whether any industry grf will notice that
20:53:00 <Alberth> sufficient highlights I'd say :p
20:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> could easily add half a dozen more :p
20:56:23 <frosch123> what do you mean, Eddi|zuHause?
20:56:30 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: do you mean highlights?
20:56:37 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: or something else?
20:56:38 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant highlights, yes ;)
20:56:51 <frosch123> thought so, Eddi|zuHause :)
20:57:37 <Eddi|zuHause> but andy is gone
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21:40:37 <opa> changing acceleration model doesn't seem to affect train speeds
21:49:36 <Eddi|zuHause> not the max speed, but the speed in curves and on hills
21:50:58 <opa> even one slope slows my trains to 1/4 top speed
21:51:37 <Hirundo> frosch123: Nice, quick fix :)
21:52:11 <Ammler> that is old accel model?
21:52:22 <Hirundo> wrt stations, I guess we are currently missing map bits to store the platform-specific triggers
21:52:43 <Eddi|zuHause> opa: the original acceleration model has really harsh limit on slopes
21:52:47 <frosch123> Hirundo: just extended the specs with the information i gather from ottd and ttdp code
21:53:18 <frosch123> i also wrote a note about remembering triggers of stations :p
21:53:45 <opa> Eddi|zuHause: changing to realistic model still slows down my trains considerably even in one slope
21:54:03 <Ammler> then you use a very weak engine
21:54:11 <Eddi|zuHause> opa: that depends on train power, steepness setting and freight multiplicator
21:55:25 <frosch123> Hirundo: basically, remembering triggers for stations makes no sense. there will never be enough bits for all cargo types
21:56:50 <opa> steepness setting and freight multiplicator are defaults
21:56:59 <opa> train has 2200hp and it has 4 cars
21:58:11 <Hirundo> hmm.. what if the north tile of an airport isn't an airport tile? or are non-square airports not yet supported?
21:58:26 <frosch123> yeah, wondered that as well
21:58:36 <frosch123> maybe those 4 bits are unintentional
21:59:15 <Yexo-> an airport where the north tile is no airport tile leads to all sorts of problems
21:59:21 <Yexo-> it's one of the reasons the statemachine callback is not done
21:59:37 <Yexo-> there is no obvious "base" tile in that case, so no tile to base the z-heigth on
21:59:53 <frosch123> well, but should airports access the 4 random bits of the north tile?
22:00:02 <frosch123> or should that feature be removed?
22:00:17 <Eddi|zuHause> opa: you sure you changed the setting within the savegame?
22:00:24 <Yexo-> if they do, that's unwanted
22:01:11 <Yexo-> opa: the "default" value of those settings has changed over time
22:01:11 <Yexo-> so please state the exact value of those settings
22:01:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how do industries behave in those cases?
22:01:57 <Hirundo> They only access the industry-specific bits
22:02:27 <Yexo-> I only read a few lines before where frosch123 highlighted me
22:03:15 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no sane reason why airports should behave differently to industries wrt random bits
22:03:22 <Yexo> if there is more I should know, please fill me in
22:03:56 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: there is: airports tiles currently have no parent scope, so no way at all to access airport random bits
22:04:08 <Yexo> that's why they behave like stations
22:04:21 <Yexo> + the fact that airport tiles are station tiles in the code, which made it easier to share that
22:04:33 <Yexo> conceptually they're a bit of both, which makes it difficult
22:04:36 <Eddi|zuHause> how about non-square airports must specify a "reference" tile, that must be within their area
22:05:20 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: that was also the idea I had, just never implemented it
22:05:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: read the new page on randomaction2
22:06:01 <frosch123> there is no reason why anything should behave the same
22:06:06 <Yexo> frosch123: ah, that's "airport" code, not "airport tiles" code. :) looks good
22:06:23 <Eddi|zuHause> a byte or word-sized property, format XXYY, which is an offset to the north corner, defaults to 0 (meaning the north corner itself). if it is not within the airport area, then the airport is invalid and cannot be built
22:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> "north corner" is a bad word, since it would be rotated
22:07:33 <Yexo> for rotated airports the reference tile should be rotated too
22:07:48 <Yexo> so in case of 180* rotated it should be the "south corner"
22:08:03 <opa> arf, user error. i could sworn that there read "vehicle", not "road" where i tried to change the model...
22:08:13 <opa> btw why the realistic one is not default?
22:08:14 <Yexo> I don't have the time to implement it (or anything else) anytime soon though
22:08:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r22636 /trunk/src/newgrf_airport.cpp: -Fix: Airports should not expose the tile specific random bits of the north tile. Only airport tiles should access those.
22:38:58 <Jerik> Is anyone here avilable to give some gameplay advice
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22:45:18 <Hirundo> Just ask your question
22:45:39 <Jerik> I downloaded the ame yesterday and have been flipping through the manual/tutorials
22:46:14 <Jerik> However, I have no idea how to play. What's a good starting strategy? I run out of money pretty quickly, and it seems my initial investment don't have a very good return
22:47:00 <Jerik> Looking at the books, my biggest expense seems to be property maintenance
22:58:48 <MNIM> Jerik: whatever you do, start with transporting coal from mines to power plants first
22:59:21 <Jerik> The method is less important? Should I start with trucks and move to trains?
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23:12:10 <Eddi|zuHause> the easiest money is airplanes over long distances
23:12:32 <Jerik> So I should use my starting money on planes?
23:12:57 <Eddi|zuHause> many people focus on trains
23:13:49 <Eddi|zuHause> make sure the train is set to "full load" on the mine
23:14:21 <Eddi|zuHause> start with coal, ore, or passengers
23:14:45 <Eddi|zuHause> passengers are very good if you have two large cities (>2000 inhabitants) nearby
23:15:13 * __ln__ starts with a few coal (rail) routes usually
23:15:32 <Jerik> Ah. I've been doing a lot of busses/trucks. Starting to think that's not the right move?
23:16:14 <Eddi|zuHause> there have been people doing "truck only" games ;)
23:16:58 <Jerik> I start out and only a few years in I'm dead broke and only bringing in 5-8k/yr
23:18:14 <Jerik> Truck only must be intense
23:18:30 <caracal> a technique that's worked for me, in some scenarios at least, is (1) build bus routes in the two largest cities ... maybe 2 to 4 busses each (2) let that run for a while, until the passenger load increases (3) build an airport in each city and start flying planes between them
23:19:12 <caracal> one trick is to build a bus stop near the airport, link it with the airport, and add it as "Transfer and leave empty"
23:19:25 <caracal> that crowds your airports pretty quickly
23:20:20 <caracal> you may have to increase your loan a time or two during the early years, but it turns into a cash cow pretty quickly
23:20:38 <Jerik> Alright, I'll have to give that a shot.
23:21:07 <caracal> then as your balance gets fat, start doing the same thing in increasingly smaller cities
23:21:31 <caracal> i mopped the floor with the AIs a couple days ago, despite their building passenger train routes everywhere
23:22:11 <caracal> but i'm a n00b, so you can't take my advice as being worth much ;)
23:22:58 <caracal> air routes certainly lack the poetic righteousness of a large well-laid-out rail system
23:24:39 <Jerik> Haha, well I don't know jack, so any advice is good advice
23:24:59 <Jerik> And yeah, it seems from the wiki that trains are a far-and-away favorite
23:30:59 <caracal> the game descended from Railroad Tycoon, so that's understandable
23:31:54 <caracal> trains are cheap to buy, cheap to run, haul huge amounts, and are quite fast compared to most other vehicles
23:36:45 <opa> this game would be pretty boring without trains
23:39:54 <opa> i think that trains are easier to get working
23:40:03 <opa> i allways seem to have trouble with trucks/buses
23:40:17 <caracal> i'm the reverse ... laying track is always a problem for me
23:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> tracks are easy. signals are where the fun starts :)
23:41:14 <caracal> tracks are easy if the ground is perfectly flat
23:42:09 <caracal> and yes, signals are still mostly a mystery to me ... i seem to recall building pretty complex rail layouts in RT2, but i think ottd's signals are more complex
23:42:34 <Jerik> I had to make a big, flat, empty scenario just to get a grip on junctions
23:51:41 <Jerik> Wow. That was quite the mistype
23:51:47 *** Xrufuian has joined #openttd
23:52:04 <caracal> heh ... yes, please print me some money ;)
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