IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-20
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04:54:59 <Scaevolus> Is there some way to specify different sprites for different zoom levels? I'd like to make water stop flashing at the farthest zoom level
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09:27:50 <JVassie> are we planning to be as extensive with OBB as we are with DR/DB/DBAG?
09:36:49 <dihedral> thank you peter1138, i'll take that as a compliment ^^
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10:30:57 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: if you take out all DRG/DB engines, ÖBB needs to be a complete playable set
10:32:27 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, JVassie would we want a parameter for each epoch and 'region'?
10:32:45 <planetmaker> Or just epoch1: none/core/all
10:33:24 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: each epoch would get a parameter for the region: none/prussia/saxony/bavaria/austria/all
10:33:31 <planetmaker> and then epoch 3-5 West, East, Austrian separate in none, core and extended?
10:33:45 <Eddi|zuHause> or, each company in an individual grf
10:33:53 <planetmaker> that's quite a huge parameter matrix
10:34:03 <planetmaker> each company a separate NewGRF... not sure
10:34:33 <planetmaker> at least not for the old one where there's not too many (afaik). Maybe I'm wrong
10:35:26 <planetmaker> Terkhen: none / core / all ;-)
10:35:31 <planetmaker> with core = default IMHO
10:35:42 <Eddi|zuHause> individual grfs would be the most flexible
10:35:59 <planetmaker> yes. But a NewGRF with like 5 engines... that's a PITA, too
10:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> each GRF covers an area of ~40 years, with about 10 (core) to 20 (extended) engines
10:37:11 <planetmaker> yes... But for each of those companies?
10:37:51 <planetmaker> I think that's too many NewGRFs. And too many engines then as 'core'
10:38:16 <planetmaker> It's like... 6 NewGRFs * 2 to 3 epochs
10:38:31 <Eddi|zuHause> each company needs its own "core" set
10:39:02 <planetmaker> I don't think so.
10:39:30 <planetmaker> For the early ones it IMHO would be better to merge a few companies
10:39:38 <Eddi|zuHause> it doesn't make a lot of sense to mix companies
10:41:03 <planetmaker> like Saxonian and Wurtembergian each an extra set? Nah...
10:41:23 <planetmaker> It makes sense for DRG, DR (East), DB (West) and maybe DBAG
10:41:24 <Eddi|zuHause> they have not really anything in common
10:41:53 <Yexo> what about having 1 parameter per epoch with values: none / core / all / only prussia / only saxony / only bavaria / only austria ?
10:42:03 <Yexo> that would make 5 parameters in total (assuming 5 epochs)
10:42:05 <planetmaker> that's something which I though
10:42:44 <planetmaker> But probably it's better then to use two parameters:
10:43:01 <planetmaker> epchoX: none, all / only XY / only YZ / ...
10:43:13 <planetmaker> and 'use core / extended' as separate one
10:43:39 <Eddi|zuHause> core/extended would be a global option applying to all epochs
10:44:15 <Yexo> say you only want prussia engines in epoch 1
10:44:24 <Yexo> would there be a difference between core and all?
10:44:28 <planetmaker> epoch1: only prussia
10:45:24 <Yexo> I'd rather say we make the grf have enough engines per company to make it usable but not more.
10:45:26 <planetmaker> I guess it depends on what engines people dig out from the past and which get drawn ;-)
10:45:43 <Yexo> than if you enable multiple companies there would be very similar engines, so "core" would mean only one of the similar ones
10:45:46 <planetmaker> initially I'm all for not going for the extended thing
10:46:25 <planetmaker> it's (at least initially) enough drawing work to get all base engines for each region and epoch done
10:46:37 <planetmaker> not to speak of the wagons
10:47:05 <Yexo> planetmaker: but if epoch 1 is useful with only prussia engines, but also useful with only saxony engines, there is bound to be very similar engines in the prussia en saxony sets
10:47:21 <planetmaker> yes, that's probably true
10:47:24 <Yexo> which means enabling both prussia and saxony leads to duplicate engines
10:47:35 <planetmaker> but it means you can play a nice scenario :-)
10:47:38 <Yexo> so I think "core" should only select one of the two engines in case that happens
10:47:43 <Yexo> "all" could then select both
10:48:03 <Yexo> so "all" would just be a combination of all engines that can also be found using other options, just not at the same time
10:48:14 <Eddi|zuHause> another category: "mix", "core", "ext": each company has an individually playable "core", and one of the similar ones through all companies will get "mix" flag
10:48:31 <planetmaker> probably a good choice
10:49:20 <planetmaker> on a tangent: Eddi|zuHause, you should sweet talk mb into your new track scheme. I like it and it makes sense and is not that difficult to support
10:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> so when choosing "core" and "all" as parameter, only the "mix" engines appear
10:49:47 <planetmaker> though NML will need either parameters to accept LABELS or it needs a num2tring function ;-)
10:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> when choosing "core" and "only X", then the "core" engines will appear
10:51:03 <Yexo> planetmaker: yes, railtypetable support in nml needs more work
10:51:22 <planetmaker> not really. AFAIK it only needs num2string.
10:51:27 <planetmaker> Hold on for the code ;-)
10:52:15 <Eddi|zuHause> NFO doesn't care whether the label is an integer or 4 characters
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10:53:22 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: but nfo doesn't store the label and assign the index in the table as value for later reference
10:55:09 <planetmaker> and engines would get their natural track assigned one of the classes you, Eddi|zuHause, defined
10:55:29 <planetmaker> that file as is compiles
10:55:57 <planetmaker> but assigning the tracktype_classA (or other) to a train in the action0 block will still fail
10:56:28 <planetmaker> and I failed (long ago, though) to implement a reasonable num2string routine in NML
10:57:35 <Yexo> only the first id of each line would be useful in the code
10:58:02 <Yexo> so if you use EMED and EMED was not available i'd be rewritten to DBbe and if that wasn't available either to ELRL
10:58:17 <planetmaker> interesting idea. Would be nice
10:58:30 <planetmaker> I'd switch the DBXY and NuTracks labels though ;-)
10:59:14 <planetmaker> probably like [DBan, RLOW, RAIL] is easier to implement than the given syntax?
10:59:25 <Yexo> was just a quick example
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11:21:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: how about if railtype translation table works like this: "INTERNAL_LABEL: LABEL1 => LABEL2 => LABEL3 ..."
11:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> then "INTERNAL_LABEL" would be completely separate
11:22:43 <Yexo> INTERNAL_LABEL: [LABEL1, LABEL2, LABEL3], would be more consistent with the rest of the syntax though
11:25:52 <planetmaker> yes, that's probably a very good solution
11:36:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: at that point, the labels should probably be "ABCD", and not ABCD
11:36:59 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: they can already be both
12:23:19 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: naming scheme: i propose "initial name (company/region, new name(s))"
12:24:17 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. "Baureihe S3 (preuß., BR 13.0)"
12:24:54 <Eddi|zuHause> or "Baureihe E10 (DB, BR 110)"
12:25:47 <Eddi|zuHause> or "Baureihe E94 (DRG, BR 194 (DB), BR 254 (DR))"
12:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> (they also had an ÖBB-number, which i would need to look up)
12:27:32 <peter1138> who what where why when?
12:28:08 <Alpaca> I seem unable to alter the GRF sets in any of my scenarios, anyone else had this problem? (1.1.1)
12:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> Alpaca: that is intended.
12:29:16 <planetmaker> I'm fine with that naming scheme, Eddi|zuHause
12:29:20 <Alpaca> is there a way around it? I made a world map with about 250 towns on a heightmap that need placing and naming, but the GRFs need tweaking
12:29:33 <peter1138> you replacing dbset or something?
12:29:39 <planetmaker> Alpaca, no newgrf change will name your towns
12:30:05 <planetmaker> or something, indeed ;-)
12:31:08 <planetmaker> peter1138, if it were a baby we would still be having sex ;-)
12:31:26 <planetmaker> sorry for the bad metaphor :-P
12:31:58 <planetmaker> but thus we don't yet quite know what. But... let's call it 'Central European Train Set'
12:32:27 <peter1138> LET'S TALK ABOUT SETS, BABY
12:33:13 <peter1138> (god that was a terrible song)
12:33:51 <Noldo> unions and intersections?
12:38:24 <Alpaca> found the solution (eventually), thanks! Now I don't have to remake maps to tweak sets
12:46:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... sorting for "T##" values is rubbish...
12:48:45 <planetmaker> what "T##" values?
12:50:19 <Eddi|zuHause> "short name" column
12:53:29 <planetmaker> the 'normal' BR would need that: a 'BR'. But probably even then it won't get much more usable
13:14:24 <JVassie> this buisness of epochs and parameters is confusing
13:14:46 <JVassie> can we use a parameter as a bit mask?
13:17:00 <JVassie> also planetmaker whats this about needing to sweet talk MB?
13:20:51 <planetmaker> JVassie, parameters as a bitmask yes or no is so 1990. We have a parameter GUI for that
13:21:14 <planetmaker> Having a user fiddle with a bitmask is nasty - even if internally it's elegant.
13:21:23 <planetmaker> And railtypes... yes.
13:21:29 <JVassie> what about railtypes?
13:22:07 <planetmaker> the ones used by this set. We discussed it... axle weight makes most sense.
13:22:16 <planetmaker> not used by, but preferred by
13:22:42 <JVassie> Cant remember being here when you discussed it
13:22:48 <JVassie> are there details down anywherE?
13:24:51 <planetmaker> yes... in the German forums ;-)
13:28:09 <planetmaker> that's along the lines of mb's idea, but uses 'official' rail class names rather than half made-up ones
13:37:46 <Terkhen> the posts from uzziah are a bit strange :)
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13:39:42 <planetmaker> I think it's a spammer
13:40:32 <Terkhen> me too, but I have no proof :P
13:45:24 <Yexo> agree tgat uzziah is most likely a spammer
13:45:49 <planetmaker> JVassie, I added an issue to cets where the track class issue is raised
13:46:03 <planetmaker> thus it's not available for general reference ;-)
13:49:17 <JVassie> woah thats a jumbled :walloftext:
13:50:40 <planetmaker> I like the idea of those 5 track types. They probably would make for a good game
13:51:06 <planetmaker> For now I'd just design the train set with that in mind and care about the tracks completely separate
13:51:47 <JVassie> thanks for the readability :D
13:52:22 <JVassie> Streckenklasse === railtype?
13:52:42 <planetmaker> rail class, but yes
13:53:12 <planetmaker> that's the official word in German for track classification
13:53:36 <keky___> check the header, then you see often it's a spammer or not
13:53:49 <planetmaker> in OpenTTD terms it would boil down to a tracktype
13:54:16 <planetmaker> keky___, in forum postings? There's no header... just a signature.
13:55:49 <keky___> ip from china or or then often a spammer too :P
13:56:26 <keky___> only geoip make it good
13:57:13 <planetmaker> well, we also have people from China and Russia, so that's no criterion. But there are IP lists...
13:57:17 <JVassie> so planetmaker, it builds on the use of just max speed as a factor for choosing a type
13:57:34 <planetmaker> JVassie, nope. Exactly that not ;-)
13:57:37 <planetmaker> On the axle weight
13:58:05 <JVassie> my english wasnt that good :p
13:58:24 <peter1138> otoh, "exactly that not" isn't
13:58:32 <JVassie> planet is german, im english
13:58:35 <JVassie> i dotn have an excuse xD
13:58:57 <JVassie> rephrased -> so, in addition to just max speed, the axle weight comes into play when choosing which rail type to build
13:59:01 <JVassie> better planetmaker? :D
13:59:18 <JVassie> i wasnt sure if we were sayign axle wieght out loud or not, but you did, so.. :D
13:59:18 <peter1138> plenty of english people get english wrong...
13:59:58 <JVassie> mysql joins + multidimensional arrays, plus duplicates
14:00:02 <JVassie> != a fun problem to solve
14:00:32 <planetmaker> JVassie, the plan would be to allow the heavy trains to run only on tracks which support their axle weight.
14:00:36 <peter1138> mysql has joins these days? hah
14:01:07 <planetmaker> Additionally tracks also have a speed limit, but that's no (direct) criterion to allow or disallow an engine or waggon on a certain track type
14:01:20 <JVassie> peter1138: since like forever
14:01:31 <planetmaker> peter1138, how would an Englishman phrase "exactly that not"?
14:01:55 <planetmaker> well... it's not the opposite. There's no opposite ;-)
14:02:14 <planetmaker> hm, interesting :-) thanks
14:02:32 <JVassie> you rarely see 'that not' in that order in english
14:02:44 <JVassie> afaik its always 'not that'
14:03:19 * JVassie likes PHPs unique_array( function
14:04:21 <peter1138> no, i'm just supplying empathy
14:04:31 <peter1138> you need a double does
14:05:06 <Yexo> only that function is called array_unique
14:06:30 <peter1138> (oh, and it sounds like you're selecting data from the db, then filtering it outside the db, which is not good
14:08:13 <JVassie> just cant type for toffee
14:08:34 <JVassie> php + mysql go well together
14:10:07 <peter1138> yeah, they're both crap
14:10:25 <JVassie> i dont get to chose the program language
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14:34:11 <peter1138> ah, dihedral's finished brewing
14:37:36 <planetmaker> brewed dih might be 100% ecological, but I'm not sure it's tasty ;-)
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14:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i think the prussian section is now "feature complete", except maybe add the G12
14:51:13 <JVassie> gah cant get my head around this
15:01:48 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, sounds good. Where do we get the sprites from?
15:02:49 <JVassie> $q = "SELECT tblCompanies.companyID, tblCompanies.companyName, tblCompanies.townCity, tblCompanies.emailAddress
15:02:49 <JVassie> FROM tblCompanies INNER JOIN tblLinkAgentsPostcodes ON tblCompanies.companyID = tblLinkAgentsPostcodes.CompanyID
15:02:49 <JVassie> WHERE tblLinkAgentsPostcodes.PostCodeID = '$postcodeid'
15:02:49 <JVassie> GROUP BY tblCompanies.companyID
15:02:49 <JVassie> ORDER BY tblCompanies.companyName";
15:02:59 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: that's a good question :p
15:04:40 <JVassie> problem is, that query is being run in a foreach loop on $postcodeid
15:06:15 <Eddi|zuHause> why the hell would you do a foreach loop when you can do a database query?
15:06:25 <JVassie> thats what im strugglign to do
15:06:29 <JVassie> get rid of the foreach loop
15:06:43 <JVassie> i have an array of postcodeids to work with
15:07:22 <JVassie> thoughts Eddi|zuHause ?
15:07:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, ask VoyagerOne?
15:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> my thoughts are elsewhere right now... maybe ask me when i return later
15:08:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: he-who-spams-the-2cc-thread?
15:09:26 <JVassie> Ameecher said he might draw something if it takes his fancy
15:09:33 <Eddi|zuHause> if we go with long vehicles, we need 12 (24) views of every vehicle, in 15° steps. i thought maybe we should use blender to render the shape, and then do pixel-touchups based on that
15:09:36 <JVassie> but wont be contributign a whole bunch
15:09:50 <planetmaker> I haven't done an in-depth analysis of his sprites, but from what I saw they look quite ok - and he's dedicated to drawing realistic vehicles
15:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> instead of the usual 4 (8)
15:10:33 <planetmaker> what's the step-size of your test grf?
15:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> the test grf has 15°
15:10:56 <planetmaker> (and I'm still interested in the code - however untidy it may be ;-) )
15:11:05 <planetmaker> ok, then 15° is a good choice
15:12:19 <planetmaker> should I write him a message?
15:12:35 <planetmaker> or you want to persue other options first, Eddi|zuHause ?
15:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> can't harm to ask ;)
15:14:17 <JVassie> are we 100% set on long vehicles?
15:14:42 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: would be a unique thing this set offers over all the other stuff out there
15:15:42 <JVassie> a BR Mk. 4 carriage is 23m
15:15:57 <JVassie> 23.4m includign couplings
15:16:19 <JVassie> height is 3.79 (call it 3.8) metres
15:16:38 <Eddi|zuHause> west german post-war wagons (UIC-X) are ~ 26.5m and east german (UIC-Y) are ~ 24.5m
15:16:55 <JVassie> so the height would be 10.133333 px
15:16:57 <Eddi|zuHause> pre-war around 18-20m
15:17:15 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: no, height/width need different scales
15:17:31 <JVassie> atm the coach side is 8px
15:17:35 <Eddi|zuHause> really should not exceed 8px each
15:17:39 <JVassie> from bottom to bottom of roof
15:17:59 <JVassie> an 8*64px coach looks super out of scale
15:18:04 <Eddi|zuHause> in - view it's like 8px of height, 4px of roof
15:18:15 <JVassie> cause youve doubled the length, but not increased the heigh at all
15:18:40 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: that's because you're too used to TTD's screwed up scale
15:19:07 <JVassie> however 64*8 px is neither TTD nor real life
15:19:12 <JVassie> were 'inventing' another scale
15:19:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it's impossible to get the scale "right"
15:19:50 <JVassie> can we not afford 2 extra pixels of 'coach side' height?
15:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> well, make a few case studies to convince me ;)
15:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> 12 different sprites in total
15:22:19 <JVassie> im just gonna do __ view quickly
15:22:27 <JVassie> have some sprites already half done
15:22:34 <JVassie> id extended a 32px coach to 64px
15:27:28 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: if you think there are too many, we can discuss taking a few out
15:30:44 <JVassie> the y value is from bottom of raisl to bottom of roof
15:30:52 <JVassie> add 4 for overall y value
15:32:01 <JVassie> planetmaker: your thoughts?
15:32:14 <Eddi|zuHause> might reduce the roof to 3 pixels, or remove the lowest line with the wheels. but need to see how it behaves ingame
15:32:44 <JVassie> would look bad if we reduced roof (which is essentially vehicle width)
15:33:03 <JVassie> is 12 overall the absolute maximum?
15:33:48 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean we get enough glitches with bridges and tunnels as it is, extending sprite height is just asking for trouble
15:34:00 <Eddi|zuHause> be aware that catenary is only 11 pixels high
15:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and we need double decker wagons with increased height
15:35:57 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: we can say 26m=64px, if that makes it easier for you
15:36:52 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, do you have (again) the issue with your test grf, please?
15:37:24 <JVassie> another nice looking livery we could investigate xD
15:37:59 <JVassie> also the OBB railjet looks super slick
15:38:45 <Eddi|zuHause> let's get the shape right, worry about liveries later ;)
15:40:19 <peter1138> so are you doing 8 or 32bpp?
15:40:49 <planetmaker> well, if someone does also the 32bpp sprites, I'd not mind doing that, too
15:40:50 <JVassie> i guess we could keep the renders for a 32bpp later on
15:40:56 <planetmaker> But it'll need 8bpp in any case
15:41:12 <peter1138> image -> mode -> 8bpp :p
15:41:21 <planetmaker> *If* someone renders the sprites - then we could do 32bpp from the start. But personally I'd not consider it a requirement
15:41:37 <Eddi|zuHause> i played with that thought
15:41:41 <peter1138> why do people think 32bpp == rendering?
15:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: other way around: rendering = easier way of getting 12/24 views
15:42:10 <planetmaker> peter1138, whatever
15:42:26 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, sure. but people automatically think making 32bpp requires rendering.
15:42:27 <planetmaker> it's IMHO up to the artist. But yes... with 24 views that might be easier.
15:42:56 <Ammler> some render for 8bpp too
15:43:20 <peter1138> yeah. rendering is a completely separate issue.
15:44:32 <Ammler> hmm, you skipped the sbb?
15:44:51 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: nobody volunteered yet ;)
15:45:14 <JVassie> DR/DB/DBAG is pretty much done
15:45:16 <Ammler> ok, just thought beceause JVassie already had a partial sbb set
15:45:29 <JVassie> I have some sbb/swiss graphics indeed
15:50:25 <MNIM> the issue however is that it is in .diff format, and i have no idea what i would need to do to use that
15:50:54 <MNIM> i'm only used to the simple .grf system
15:51:08 <planetmaker> that's not an add-on, it's a source-code patch
15:51:10 <SpComb> you need to patch and compile
15:51:36 <planetmaker> thus you need to get the source code, get the development tools, and then compile
15:51:51 <planetmaker> and... you'll most likely need to update the patch as it's about 3 years old
15:51:59 <Ammler> well, maybe you also need to update the patch, very advanced stuff :-)
15:52:04 <planetmaker> thus it won't apply to the current source code without some coding work
15:52:23 <planetmaker> Ammler, the GUI code changed...
15:52:40 <MNIM> nobody knows of any more recent content that would do the same?
15:52:49 <planetmaker> maybe nobody knows
15:52:58 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I have not seen nobody.
15:52:58 <Ammler> MNIM: you could ask chili to add it to his patchpack
15:53:11 <planetmaker> I know a 3 month more recent version :-P
15:53:34 <Ammler> I guess, It might not be hard to write that feature from scratch
15:53:39 <MNIM> well, i assume that won't save me.
15:53:47 <Ammler> basically just needs to remove a if
15:54:30 <planetmaker> but the game is now at r22500. Thus you can judge: when that patch was written, OpenTTD was about 3/5 of its current age
15:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> try to put on trousers from when you were 3/5 of your current age :p
15:55:34 <MNIM> since that would make me... 11?
15:55:44 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 18.3333333333
15:56:20 <MNIM> bit more, rounded down from 11.4
15:57:38 <planetmaker> MNIM, you can place rivers in the SE
15:58:21 <MNIM> I know, but i like to place 'em during my sandbox games
15:58:52 <Eddi|zuHause> rename file to scn, load in SE, rename back, play on
15:58:54 <MNIM> i'm more of the 'model trains' kind of ottd-ers
15:59:09 <Eddi|zuHause> could use a cheat "place rivers ingame"
15:59:18 <planetmaker> you're not alone with that, MNIM ;-)
15:59:29 <planetmaker> Not sure it's a 'cheat', Eddi|zuHause
15:59:53 <MNIM> pretty much, for something thought up so long ago i'm surprised nobody thought to include that into the game yet
15:59:53 <planetmaker> But yes... I don't quite recall the reason why it was NOT included.
15:59:55 <Ammler> yeah, it is very bad implemented, the dev who added rivers didn't just "forget" about that, he also added a evil rule, so you can't build rivers with patched client on a server ;-)
16:00:05 <planetmaker> IIRC it was along the lines of 'players cannot build rivers'
16:00:14 <planetmaker> which in a way is... a realism argument
16:00:22 <JVassie> should be a cheat option tbh
16:00:31 <JVassie> allow creating rivers during game
16:00:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Ammler: you want to team up with luukland? :p
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16:01:09 <planetmaker> der eine geht, der andere kommt ;-)
16:01:11 <MNIM> this is more my kind oif ottd'ing. :P
16:01:49 <MNIM> hmmmh, oh, btw, can anybody hand me the standard connection adress for this network?
16:02:06 <MNIM> then i'll just include it in the serverlist of the proper client
16:02:39 <planetmaker> irc.oftc.net/openttd?
16:03:11 <planetmaker> probably missing a # somewhere or so.
16:04:42 <Ammler> Eddi|zuHause: luukland?
16:05:29 <Yexo> yes, he was also wining about servers disallowing commands that unmodified clients couldn't do
16:06:51 <Ammler> nah, please note the smile at the end
16:09:30 *** Moustachio has joined #openttd
16:09:47 <Moustachio> I love it when something works properly.
16:10:04 <Moustachio> oh, username cut off.
16:10:24 *** Moustachio is now known as MNIM
16:14:45 <MNIM> "'latest' is not a valid version"
16:17:07 <MNIM> since when do wolves moo?
16:18:59 <__ln__> MNIM: they do in italy
16:19:57 <__ln__> it's the mediterranean climate
16:20:54 <Belugas> MNIM's one, i meant..
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16:26:03 <MNIM> any of you ever used the ECS vectors?
16:26:32 <MNIM> I don't get the tourist centers. "(...) requires sloped land"
16:26:46 <MNIM> no matter how sloped I make it, no tourist center
16:28:36 <MNIM> not mine, just random google img
16:31:02 <Belugas> let me finish my freaking basement and we'll start buildnig our own train network, my son and i!
16:31:37 <MNIM> I know a dude who's doing that as well
16:31:50 <MNIM> the only issue is that he doesn't have a lot of time due to work
16:31:54 * JVassie wants a basement the size of the M25
16:32:01 <MNIM> ...he works at the dutch railways :P
16:32:13 <Belugas> that's quite...ironical
16:32:19 <planetmaker> IMHO the shot lacks interesting perspective ;-)
16:32:24 <MNIM> apparently they don't let him play with trains enough already
16:32:43 <TWerkhoven> tell him to play openttd instead then
16:32:48 <TWerkhoven> takes a lot less time to build there
16:33:29 <Rubidium> MNIM: how can that be... he must have at least like 25 free days
16:34:47 <DorpsGek> JVassie: 166.666666667
16:37:14 <MNIM> true, Im going to suggest it to him next time I see him. heh
16:37:26 <MNIM> ottd runs on macs, right?
16:40:51 <MNIM> that sounds suspiciously much like 'Yeah, but you're probably gonna need a degree in IT sciences'
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16:41:53 <Rubidium> yeah, a physics degree seems to be enough as well, right?
16:43:39 <MNIM> if he won't be entertained by it, I expect his three kids will at least
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17:07:03 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22604 /trunk/readme.txt: -Document: that there are invalid warnings under some circumstances
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18:25:51 <Zuu> Hmm, googling for "setting up a compile farm" gets OpenTTD on fourth place :-)
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18:36:52 <planetmaker> hallo andythenorth
18:37:10 <DGMurdockIII> is there a way to play openttd without having the Transport Tycoon game?
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18:59:15 <TrueBrain> Zuu: try googling for OSX cross platform :P
19:01:14 <DGMurdockIII> how do i use it with openttd
19:01:38 <Zuu> DGMurdockIII: Windows or Linux or OSX?
19:02:03 <Zuu> If you run the setup installer, it will ask if you want it to download + install OpenGFX
19:02:27 <DGMurdockIII> the setup for openttd
19:02:56 <Zuu> It might also contain on option to download OpenSFX from the installer though it is not necessary to get OpenTTD running.
19:03:24 <Zuu> Once you have got OpenTTD running, you can get most addons/extra content via the in-game online content system.
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19:05:09 <DGMurdockIII> no as im am a huge simcity player is there any rule of thump of how the to place the buildiong and stuff simcity if if you did not place road and stuff right you wouldnt gwt very manypeople in city
19:05:23 <Zuu> (OpenSFX is a sound set. OpenTTD ships with the soundset "NoSound" which is completely silent. If you want actual sound effects, you need OpenSFX (or original TTD sound files))
19:05:56 *** supermop has joined #openttd
19:06:21 <FrankyJones> Goodday all! Anybody from holland arround to help me setting up a server... im out of sollutions... :)
19:06:44 <Zuu> Why do you need anyone from holland in an English only IRC channel?
19:06:50 <DGMurdockIII> i tryed playing this once before but i could not get my city to do aNYTHING
19:07:11 <Zuu> DGMurdockIII: OpenTTD is not a city simulation game.
19:07:35 <FrankyJones> Ok your right... then some server help in English...?
19:07:47 <DGMurdockIII> so maby im missing the point on what im supported to do
19:07:48 <DorpsGek> Zuu: Don't ask to ask, just ask
19:08:37 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
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19:09:36 <FrankyJones> Willing to setup a Openttd server non dedicated... I choose for setup server, internet (advert) and start the game... the server is not being added to the internet list and stays local (lan)... why?
19:10:19 <planetmaker> select 'internet' and not 'lan' in the server setup menu
19:10:22 <Zuu> Have you opened ports / port forwarding in your router + OS?
19:11:29 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
19:11:34 <Zuu> Your server will only show up on the server list if it can be reached from the outside by the master server.
19:11:46 <planetmaker> the server list can be checked on servers.openttd.org
19:11:53 <DGMurdockIII> (Zuu): would you be able to show me the basic using co-op
19:11:56 <FrankyJones> Ok thanks guys! Im gonna try this right now! Thanks!
19:12:54 <Zuu> DGMurdockIII: You could as well download + run an AI if you want to see someone building.
19:13:12 <Zuu> The GUI can't be teached via co-op.
19:13:41 <Zuu> Unless writing what is already documented in the wiki.
19:13:51 <DGMurdockIII> i want to know how to do the game right
19:14:03 <DGMurdockIII> i can figer out the gui myself
19:14:47 <Zuu> Download CluelessPlus and "I" will show you how to play :-p
19:15:05 <Zuu> (I'm the author of that AI)
19:15:24 <Zuu> Download PAXLink and "I" will show you how to get bankrupt :-D
19:16:21 <DGMurdockIII> im downloading them
19:17:14 <Zuu> And select 2 (or more AIs) and also put the AIs into the AI slots instead of Random.
19:17:25 <Zuu> If you want to be sure to not get two of the same AI.
19:17:41 <Zuu> After you are done with AI config, you can start a new game.
19:17:56 <Zuu> However, you might want to enable the Slow setting in CluelessPlus.
19:17:59 <DGMurdockIII> i dont see the ai i downloaded
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19:19:08 <Zuu> interesting problem. I guess the standard solution is to restart OpenTTD. ;-) Though I have no idea why it happens.
19:19:58 <Zuu> (Assuming you did click on one of those lines saying "Random AI" and then on the "Select AI" button.
19:21:38 <DGMurdockIII> when starting anew game shold i leave everthing defult
19:24:31 <doug713705> Hi all. I have setted up a dedicated server (version 1.1.1/linux debian) and I'd like to change some settings on the fly via rcon commands within a python script. Is it possible to connect to the server for this ? Which port do I have to use (3979/TCP, 3977/TCP, 3979/UDP) ?
19:25:07 <Zuu> leaving everything else on default should be okay. Mind that IIRC first AI start a year after you with the default settings.
19:25:54 <Zuu> That said, you can either fast-forward quickly past that year, or pull down the console and type "startai" and have it started directly even if you forgot to reduce that time.
19:26:14 <JVassie> planetmaker: that zebra striping
19:26:23 <JVassie> what sort order was it applied during?
19:27:19 <planetmaker> I highlighted the core of epoch1
19:33:24 <doug713705> Nice, this document points to the porotocol definition. Thanks a lot
19:35:30 <JVassie> G12 intro 1017 planetmaker ?
19:35:56 <planetmaker> a bit early, eh? ;-)
19:36:19 <planetmaker> what does wiki tell?
19:39:03 <JVassie> only 4 locos in the 80s introduced?
19:58:25 <JVassie> STR_PARAM_AMOUNT_NONE
19:59:22 <JVassie> looks good otherwise planetmaker :D
19:59:26 <JVassie> dunno if you'd noticed
19:59:32 <JVassie> but im making slow headway with SBB
20:00:31 <planetmaker> I didn't look at the table really since noon
20:06:12 <planetmaker> Terkhen: CC-BY-SA is that compatible with GPL? I don't think so
20:06:28 <Terkhen> do I say that in my post?
20:06:59 <planetmaker> just makes copy&paste of code more difficult ;-)
20:07:11 <Terkhen> in my post "would make sense for us" means "less work trying to get all the people that did a sprite" :P
20:07:34 <Terkhen> I prefer GPL, and many contributions from other sets or some authors are in GPL already
20:07:49 <planetmaker> I think DanMacK's stance is 'my work is public domain'
20:08:23 <Terkhen> that's on my ToDo... checking if the authors on the list did any public comment regarding all of their work
20:08:47 <Terkhen> I'll make a note of that, although DanMack is still around :)
20:09:14 <planetmaker> look at his signature, Terkhen ;-)
20:09:26 * andythenorth suggests encouraging DanMacK to not get bored of spriting
20:09:33 <planetmaker> Feel free to use any of my sprites, all I ask in return is credit for the original artwork
20:09:45 <andythenorth> Dan is GPL compatible ;)
20:10:07 * andythenorth can't be bothered to do actual work
20:10:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: FIRS game?
20:10:27 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have been coding all day and I'm tired of it, so... yes :)
20:10:35 <Terkhen> my internet sucks today though
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20:26:00 <JVassie> you have my permission for any of my spain set contributions to be distributed under a GPl v2 license
20:27:12 <MNIM> I just sucessfully reassembled an intuos tablet pen
20:27:39 <JVassie> I once reassembled a hoover
20:27:50 <MNIM> ..wait. where did that spring come from?
20:28:06 <planetmaker> mind the difference between resemble and reassemble ;-)
20:28:25 * MNIM whips the A key as punishment
20:28:35 <planetmaker> you shouldn't ;-)
20:28:42 <planetmaker> it was correct :-P
20:28:49 <MNIM> then why did you say that?
20:29:55 <MNIM> because you confuse me like that?
20:30:12 <planetmaker> have a cookie :-)
20:31:15 * planetmaker should go to bed - or more such reading errors occur ;-)
20:31:16 <MNIM> that's not a tracking cookie, is it?
20:31:22 * MNIM runs a virusscan over it
20:31:25 * planetmaker also gives a cookie to Terkhen. Even two
20:33:03 <JVassie> planetmaker: work on the spreadsheet!
20:33:53 <planetmaker> I wrote already the parameters today ;-)
20:34:04 <planetmaker> and ... your day still has an hour more than mine :-P
20:34:32 * frosch123 considers the conversion of newgrf wiki done
20:35:06 <JVassie> SBB has more modern stuff than DB
20:35:20 <frosch123> i ran all pages (in rendered state) of old and new wiki through a whitespace ignoring diff
20:35:54 *** devilsadvocate has quit IRC
20:35:58 <frosch123> then fixed the issues :p
20:36:09 <planetmaker> have three cookies ;-)
20:36:41 <frosch123> took me some days to check all the diffs :)
20:39:50 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I put the highlighted engines from CETS into a timeline spreadsheet. From that there seems to be a slight bunching of heavy cargo at one point, while light cargo is a bit lacking then.
20:39:53 <michi_cc> planetmaker: If you give me edit rights, I can put that sheet into the google doc.
20:40:07 <planetmaker> nice work, frosch123 :-)
20:40:11 <frosch123> btw. was there any result on configuring inter-wiki links? or should we continue using the templates?
20:40:22 <Yexo> planetmaker: that pastebin you posted, did you actually test that?
20:40:33 <Yexo> as all parameters are named "param_provide", which should be invalid
20:40:56 <planetmaker> classical c&p error :-)
20:41:33 <JVassie> found a steamer for 1847
20:41:50 <planetmaker> michi_cc: what's your google account / login?
20:41:58 <Yexo> Game 1: epoch34 I chose DR, and for amount I chose CORE
20:42:02 <michi_cc> planetmaker: michi@icosahedron.de
20:42:06 <Yexo> Game 2: epoch 34 I chose DB, amount CORE
20:42:17 <Yexo> Game 3: epoch 34 ALL, amount CORE
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20:42:32 <Yexo> will game 3 have all engines that appear in either game 1 or game 2?
20:42:44 <planetmaker> michi_cc: deed done
20:42:59 <Yexo> if so, wouldn't that be too many engines for CORE?
20:43:07 <Yexo> if not, that's very confusing
20:43:31 <planetmaker> Yexo: core means to select the core engines of _each_ (sub) set
20:43:49 <planetmaker> 'mixed' means to chose a really minimal set
20:43:50 <JVassie> Yexo, they dont have to select core of multiple sub sets
20:44:06 <Yexo> planetmaker: so default is "mixed"?
20:44:15 <planetmaker> possibly that needs better naming. I'd make 'mixed' the default, yes
20:44:16 <Yexo> and default for all epochs would be "all"?
20:44:27 <Yexo> in that case it looks fine :)
20:44:40 <planetmaker> possibly... though what I pasted doesn't follow that.
20:44:50 <planetmaker> current default is all off, except prussian trains :-P
20:45:01 <Yexo> that sounds like a strange default :p
20:45:17 <planetmaker> rather from the desire to start with that
20:45:34 <JVassie> my defaults would be all, all, all, everything, extended, all, all, etc
20:45:39 <planetmaker> thus... everything else... the core or extended set of 0 trains is still 0 ;-)
20:45:45 <michi_cc> planetmaker: There should be a new sheet now. Red text is eletric engine, black everything else. Background color is only for visual distinction.
20:46:33 <michi_cc> You can see the 1920s have several heavy cargo, but not much else.
20:46:55 <JVassie> remember the time spans are build dates not useage dates :)
20:47:01 <JVassie> but i see your point michi
20:47:21 <planetmaker> interesting, thanks, michi_cc :-)
20:47:35 <JVassie> <JVassie> is 1847 too early?
20:48:25 <JVassie> current earliest is G3 and P2 both 1877
20:48:28 <planetmaker> important is 'what's available'
20:48:34 <planetmaker> not 'when introduced'
20:48:46 <michi_cc> JVassie: Yes, but the time span a player can buy an engine is the important one. Of course, the in-game time span must not necessarily be identical to the historical dates.
20:49:16 <JVassie> just making sure you knew the origin of the dates in the 2nd sheet
20:51:40 <Yexo> wow, 120 engines already
20:51:47 <Yexo> the table is growing fast :)
20:51:58 <JVassie> im working on it Yexo :D
20:52:18 <JVassie> SBB has a real nice spread of stuff
20:52:40 <planetmaker> Yep, the table is already quite impressive
20:53:40 <JVassie> intro dates span 1847-2012
20:54:04 <JVassie> right all modern SBB/SBB Cargo stuff is in
20:54:20 <JVassie> will do the old diesel and leccies later on
20:54:42 <planetmaker> michi_cc: when I look at the stats: then G12 and T20 are not much different...
20:55:20 <planetmaker> probably I'd leave out the T20
20:55:34 <planetmaker> but I'm blissfully ignorant of railway history
21:01:55 <Eddi|zuHause> we need some way to distinguish travel distance
21:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> G12 for long distances, T20 for short distances
21:02:16 <michi_cc> planetmaker: I've changed the colors on that time line a bit, now all blue-ish stuff is axle weight <= 16t (i.e. track class A) and the red-ish (and the electrics) are higher axle weight
21:02:57 <michi_cc> From that there's a definite need for something with low axle weight starting from 1915 or so
21:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> the buy-periods should probably get longer than the historic ones
21:03:05 <planetmaker> good point to add
21:03:06 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: not sure this is a good idea, but: trains that normally travel short distance: very high running cost, no running cost while at station
21:03:18 <Yexo> for trains that normally travel long distances: lower running cost, but same running cost at the station
21:03:53 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I think we kick T20 from core
21:03:55 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: something really evil would be "distance travelled since last service"
21:04:00 <Yexo> that way the "long distances" trains are penalized when they load too much (=too short routes) and the "short distance" trains are penalized when they travel too much (=high running cost not offset by time at station)
21:04:43 <Yexo> Eddi|zuHause: but that just makes you have to service trains a lot, which is imo a bad idea
21:04:46 <planetmaker> interesting idea, Yexo :-)
21:05:20 <andythenorth> these problems would be solvable with a cargo-aging cb per vehicle type
21:05:25 <Eddi|zuHause> Yexo: i'd have something like "limit air distance between furthest stations in timetable"
21:05:30 <andythenorth> it would be both (a) good and (b) realistic :P
21:05:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't think that'll be possible
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21:05:57 <Yexo> andythenorth: that would be useful for different wagons, not for different engines
21:06:09 <Yexo> and that's indeed not possible eddi
21:06:19 <Yexo> even the current limit for ships can be easily circumvented
21:06:47 <andythenorth> for engines, are such measures needed?
21:07:09 <andythenorth> it's probably solvable within spec
21:07:21 <andythenorth> just make engines for local service slower + cheaper
21:07:27 <Yexo> the discussion was about engines, not wagons
21:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause> there could be "refill" times like loading times
21:07:49 <Yexo> andy: but that means that "long distance" engines are also better for short routes
21:08:11 <andythenorth> not if they're insanely expensive?
21:08:17 * planetmaker considers T18 and G8 for core to keep engines for low axle weight tracks
21:08:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how about: exchange T20 with T18?
21:08:58 <andythenorth> this issue is about PAX services?
21:09:04 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: definitely a win
21:09:45 <Eddi|zuHause> problem is: T18 is a passenger engine, T20 a cargo engine
21:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> so they're not really comparable
21:09:58 <Eddi|zuHause> so T18 overlaps with T12 somewhat
21:10:42 <planetmaker> T20 isn't needed, there's two other similar cargo engines
21:10:50 *** Chris_Booth_ is now known as Chris_Booth
21:11:09 <planetmaker> the G12 is not that much different
21:12:01 <Eddi|zuHause> Txx engines are shorter than Gxx and Pxx
21:12:13 <Eddi|zuHause> because they don't have additional tender
21:14:45 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
21:16:06 <planetmaker> hm, there don't seem to be many engines with axle weigh < 16t in > 1915
21:16:15 <planetmaker> so not much to do there
21:16:35 <planetmaker> thus we simply need to extend the availability years for some light engines
21:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> <16t will only be very local branch railways after 1920
21:17:38 <Eddi|zuHause> then most engines are doubled between <18t (e.g. BR 03) and >18t (e.g. BR 01)
21:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> with very similar stats
21:18:05 <planetmaker> so that's the important barrier later on
21:18:12 <Eddi|zuHause> if designing for MB's track set, the >18t ones would be "core"
21:19:14 <planetmaker> I guess I'll follow Terkhen 's example for now, though...
21:19:20 <Eddi|zuHause> electric engines are almost always >18t
21:19:41 <planetmaker> so: core = heavy engines
21:19:50 <planetmaker> and extended: also branch?
21:20:07 <planetmaker> with that knowledge now I'll wave 'good night' :-)
21:20:25 <Eddi|zuHause> a few handpicked engines for <16t
21:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> to keep branch railways alive
21:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> there's no "reply to all" for PMs
21:24:40 <Eddi|zuHause> and i can't select recipients at all?!?
21:25:04 <michi_cc> How about the G10 as a proper cargo engine for <16t?
21:25:06 <Yexo> top left, there is a box with "Usernames" as header
21:25:17 <Yexo> enter one username per line, than click "Add [To]"
21:25:39 <Eddi|zuHause> now that's a weird page layout
21:26:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i would expect that in the "To:" line
21:26:12 <Eddi|zuHause> above the subject
21:44:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... can i run vmware in a vm?
21:45:26 * MNIM refers to the obligatory inception demotivational
21:46:31 <MNIM> is it possible to use TTRS with TBRS the TTRS road surfaces on the bridges, but the bridges from TBRS?
21:47:26 <MNIM> I can get it to use either TTRS roads and different roads on the bridges, or TTRS roads AND bridges
21:47:40 <MNIM> but the TTRS bridges are fairly broken (not to mention ugly)
21:48:33 <MNIM> no offense intended, if the actual dev of that set is here, but I don't like those bridges
21:48:49 <MNIM> besides the fact that they're broken, that is
21:51:50 <Eddi|zuHause> there were a handful extra TBRS sets around with support for various road sets
21:52:31 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure if TTRS roads were among them
21:52:36 <Eddi|zuHause> or where to find them
21:52:46 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd recommend just using the default roads
21:53:03 <Eddi|zuHause> least amount of trouble
21:55:28 <MNIM> but if we used that philosophy, would there even be TTRS or TBRS-es?
21:55:45 <MNIM> oh well, Ill google a bit more
21:56:10 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd dig through either grfcrawler or the TBRS thread in the forum
21:56:35 <Eddi|zuHause> might be a "TBRS 1.11 for TTRS"
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23:28:41 <Eddi|zuHause> JVassie: i don't think it makes sense to distinguish between "SBB" and "SBB Cargo"
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23:55:27 <MNIM> frequently need to edit a savegame in scenario editor?
23:57:50 <MNIM> sometimes shit can be so simple
23:58:12 <Eddi|zuHause> but that means overwriting the old savegame, which makes it difficult to go back if you made a mistake
23:59:10 <Eddi|zuHause> that is made worse by the distinctive lack of autosave in the scenario editor
continue to next day ⏵
