IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-06-08
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05:24:08 <bodis> didnt realize that passengers are as good income source as any industry
05:24:26 <bodis> playing with no industries at all and doing just fine :)
05:26:18 <Terkhen> your vehicles don't have to travel back empty :)
05:30:40 <planetmaker> hm... subsprites don't seem to support palettes
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07:23:55 <andythenorth> Rubidium: it looks like bananas stores some configuration information (ottd versions etc) in mysql?
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08:08:06 <Terkhen> patience is a scarce virtue :)
08:10:29 <dihedral> virtue was never one of my virtues
08:27:00 <planetmaker> virtual virtues ;-)
08:28:51 <Terkhen> in the base person class, virtues are virtual functions and have empty implementations that return nothing
08:29:04 <Terkhen> most people don't reimplement those functions
08:33:29 <Gibono> thank you for the job you are accomplishing on openttd
08:33:41 <Gibono> it's a pleasure to play this game again
08:35:49 <Terkhen> you are welcome Gibono, it's a pleasure to work on it too :)
08:43:18 <planetmaker> [10:28] Terkhen in the base person class, virtues are virtual functions and have empty implementations that return nothing
08:43:20 <planetmaker> [10:29] Terkhen most people don't reimplement those functions
08:43:21 <planetmaker> ^^ hehe :-) well said
08:44:38 * Terkhen has a broken implementation of diligence
08:45:28 * planetmaker knows another such person
08:46:21 <Terkhen> if (days_to_due_date >= threshold) return procrastinate;
08:46:39 <Terkhen> but the threshold becomes smaller every day too
08:52:27 <planetmaker> can be interpreted as efficiency, though ;-)
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09:41:21 <Bilge> Some degree of tram support is included in OTTD itself right?
09:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. all tram support is included in OpenTTD. just not any tram
09:44:20 <__ln__> and this isn't the least bit ridiculous, is it
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09:57:42 <Bilge> Probably not given that it seems to be bugged
09:58:00 <Bilge> My only question would be as to what is at fault - OTTD or the newgrf
10:07:11 <Bilge> Trams passing through each other
10:07:55 <Terkhen> that's not a tram bug
10:08:00 <Terkhen> the same happens with regular road vehicles :)
10:08:13 <Bilge> Only time I've seen that is when they fail to overtake properly
10:08:37 <Terkhen> they also overtake through other vehicles, and start driving through other vehicles if a jam is completely stopped for enough time
10:08:46 <Bilge> I had two trams queued up at a station while the first one was taking its sweet time loading a full load of cargo
10:09:02 <Bilge> Eventually it got bored of waiting and just decided to pass through it
10:09:13 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, those are quantum effects
10:09:36 <Eddi|zuHause> advanced settings -> vehicles -> road vehicle queueing (with quantum effects)
10:09:55 <planetmaker> he, that's even an adv. setting?
10:10:23 <Eddi|zuHause> at least it used to be...
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10:10:30 <Terkhen> I remember something like that, yes
10:12:09 <planetmaker> obviously I didn't do an adv. setting / rcon comptition for a long time ;-)
10:12:18 <planetmaker> And even then Ammler won the last time :-P
10:12:28 <Eddi|zuHause> but it's in vehicles->pathfinder
10:12:39 <Terkhen> what is an rcon competition?
10:13:39 <planetmaker> :-) It was a kinda fun: Like "what's the setting name to stop a town growing?" - "what's the setting name for max. train length" etc
10:13:47 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it can be "an" at that place ;)
10:13:57 <planetmaker> those who failed first to provide the proper answer looses ;-)
10:14:02 <planetmaker> looking at cfg doesn't count
10:14:17 <Terkhen> oh, I was thinking on something more spectacular :P
10:14:21 <planetmaker> i.e. a competition to remember most settings ;-)
10:14:28 <planetmaker> sorry to disappoint you ;-)
10:14:53 <planetmaker> it was a bit about who can configure faster the server to the desired settings - that's where it evolved from
10:14:54 <Terkhen> mess with the advanced settings, the first one to utterly destroy the savegame wins
10:16:34 <planetmaker> but we played with our life server :-P
10:16:58 <planetmaker> set settingname just gives the value so one doesn't need to destroy anything ;-)
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10:24:03 <Chris_Booth> seems like a boring game
10:25:41 <planetmaker> after 5 or 10 minutes you're done ;-)
10:25:51 <planetmaker> and don't need to repeat it for a year at least
10:30:27 <Chris_Booth> you could play list that coop save
10:30:42 <Chris_Booth> but I know who would win that one, unless you didn't allow them to join in
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11:17:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... rather dark outside
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13:18:24 <Belugas> sir fjb, i wasve at you
13:21:31 * Vikthor waves at the whale-man and rest of you
13:32:35 * Belugas waves and waves and dives and bubbles
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13:55:27 <Chris_Booth> got to love idiots
13:56:21 <Chris_Booth> that is a case of: I'd explain it to you, but your brain would explode
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14:36:56 <lugo> Chris_Booth, or like 'i can explain it to you, but i can't comprehend it for you' ;)
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14:44:53 <Eddi|zuHause> well... he COULD have instead said "where Dracula is from"
16:05:24 <Terkhen> what desktop environments do you use?
16:07:46 <Terkhen> I'm planning on testing a few to see if I like a different one, gnome is giving me too many headaches lately
16:09:32 <Ammler> I heard, gnome 3 is worse then KDE4 was :-)
16:10:16 <Rubidium> XFCE... though that seems to be getting huge as well :(
16:10:25 <Ammler> xfce is just another gnome
16:11:28 * Ammler should try egg, the other qt DE
16:12:05 <Terkhen> last time I tested kde I found it a bit confusing
16:12:11 <Terkhen> it was kde 3 IIRC, though
16:12:32 <Ammler> kde might habe too many settings, which gnome has too few
16:13:21 * Rubidium ponders making some "OpenTTD doesn't participate in the 'World IPv6 day'" post on the website
16:14:24 * planetmaker found the ipv6 day totally uneventful
16:14:49 * Terkhen will start by testing the DE mentioned here :P
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16:25:40 <Bilge> What happens if you set the message type to "summary" instead of "full"?
16:25:58 <Bilge> Oh, I see, a news ticker
16:29:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the ticker is bad.
16:29:49 <Prof_Frink> New Stickers? Where?
16:29:55 <Eddi|zuHause> it blocks all important messages until the ticker went through
16:30:06 <Eddi|zuHause> which kinda defeats the point
16:31:32 <Prof_Frink> I'd like to see summary messages appear like MP chat
16:31:59 <planetmaker> probably a good idea
16:32:27 <planetmaker> or at least interesting
16:35:34 <Bilge> So the ticker queue and popup queue aren't separate?
16:39:56 <Belugas> # Que hora son mi corazon ?
16:46:59 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.666666666667
16:47:11 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: 0.733333333333
16:47:47 * Rubidium wonders what that was about
16:59:57 <Eddi|zuHause> divide and conquer. this was the dividing part.
17:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> "*evil grin*" :p
17:01:13 <Eddi|zuHause> why does the name "Manu Chao" ring a bell?
17:03:14 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, i've got that far :p
17:03:42 <Terkhen> I think he's actually from here, but I don't know much else either :P
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17:45:15 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r22547 /trunk/src/lang/spanish.txt:
17:45:15 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:15 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: spanish - 1 changes by Terkhen
17:46:48 * Rubidium waves in the general direction of DanMacKia
17:46:58 <Belugas> is he fro Spain? I though he was from France
17:47:05 <Belugas> ho well.. he can vry well be :)
17:48:02 <Belugas> born in Paris in 1961
17:48:11 <Belugas> mmh.. just a tiny older than me
17:54:12 <Terkhen> I guess I selected everything :P
17:54:40 <planetmaker> well. 1o/oo for OS is acceptable ;-)
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18:12:01 <bodis> or anything remotely looking like M$ :P
18:12:18 <Terkhen> bodis: I'm testing a few DE to see which one is the best for me
18:12:34 <bodis> gone through that half a year ago
18:12:39 <Terkhen> given that I spend a lot of time on windows too that would not be a problem :P
18:12:52 <bodis> have you tried openbox?
18:13:02 <Terkhen> no, I'll add it to the list of DE to test :)
18:13:26 <bodis> well depends how much eye candy you need
18:13:54 <bodis> for me with my minimalistic needs - gedit and openttd, openbox is perfect :P
18:14:16 <Terkhen> not much, but I love features that allow me to do what I want quickly
18:14:30 <Terkhen> gnome 3 had a few, but the cons outweight the pros
18:14:56 <Terkhen> specially the "crash at random moments" problem
18:15:18 <frosch123> it had a really good konsole, and a really good kate
18:15:21 <Terkhen> hmm... I'm installing kde 4.6 right now, but there was a link to a project that maintains kde 3 too
18:15:38 <bodis> well openbox is very minimalistic, but you have to add everything manuallu to menus
18:15:48 <bodis> which aint a problem really :)
18:15:59 <bodis> but you can customize it exactly yto your needs :)
18:16:10 <Terkhen> hmm... that sounds like work :P
18:16:10 <bodis> whats distro you running?
18:16:29 <frosch123> no idea about the newer kdes, i left kde 4 very quickly after kde 3 was no longer part of the gentoo distribution. but at that point (kde 4.3 or so), both konsole and kate were totally unusable
18:16:56 <Terkhen> |Jeroen|: it is on my list of stuff to test :)
18:17:50 <|Jeroen|> then it will win the tests :-p
18:18:09 <Terkhen> yes, but while it downloads I can keep writing documentation or playing openttd
18:18:28 <bodis> he sounds like eye candy stuff :P
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18:19:49 <Terkhen> I don't know, I have only used gnome :P
18:24:55 <andythenorth> I think we did it wrong
18:25:26 <andythenorth> banning changing newgrfs during game
18:25:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what do you think is wrong with current konsole and kate?
18:25:33 <andythenorth> although I was in favour of it
18:25:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I still think it's good
18:25:59 <planetmaker> people just are still used to the old ways like "it worked before"
18:26:19 <planetmaker> every single person who asks about it, did it before
18:26:22 <Eddi|zuHause> yes. it already gets better
18:26:31 <Terkhen> IMO once that scenarios are decoupled from NewGRFs we should remove the option to change NewGRFs completely :)
18:26:49 <Terkhen> but that's a bit drastic I guess
18:27:06 <andythenorth> is the newgrf menu visible during game play now?
18:27:17 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but it is read-only
18:27:19 <planetmaker> as newgrf list... without options to change anything
18:27:27 <Terkhen> yes, it just lists the NewGRFs
18:27:38 <Alberth> and you can save the preset :p
18:27:41 <andythenorth> should remove it
18:27:53 <Terkhen> it still shows you warnings on current NewGRFs and so on
18:28:03 <planetmaker> it's missing a parameter view
18:28:15 <planetmaker> that was less trivial than it sounded at first ;-)
18:28:27 <andythenorth> you can change parameters in-game still?
18:28:42 <planetmaker> you can't change anything.
18:28:43 <andythenorth> that must be annoying
18:28:51 <andythenorth> I often change params during game play
18:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> changing parameters is potentially the same as adding/removing a grf
18:29:32 <Terkhen> I completely misunderstood how the saveload code works
18:30:09 <Terkhen> sorry, I just realized why town storage wasn't being saved
18:30:12 <andythenorth> how often does adding a grf cause things to go boom?
18:30:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: adding a grf, rarely. removing a grf, often.
18:30:49 <planetmaker> it's not about the number. It's about that it does it *at all*
18:30:56 <planetmaker> it's always a bug
18:31:17 <andythenorth> I think we might have decided on a wrong solution though
18:31:23 <andythenorth> maybe it's the only one we have time for
18:31:33 <planetmaker> bugs are right then?
18:31:33 <andythenorth> but it's engineering-focussed, not user-focussed
18:31:36 <Terkhen> what would be the right solution?
18:31:51 <Alberth> andythenorth: it is engineering reality
18:31:54 <planetmaker> hardly. Bugs are what is *really* annoying
18:31:59 <planetmaker> when the game crashes
18:32:28 <andythenorth> if adding any vehicle grf to a game with engine pool enabled causes a crash, that's an openttd bug
18:32:38 <andythenorth> or the newgrf is doing something stupid
18:32:44 <planetmaker> it's a newgrf incompatibility
18:32:51 <Eddi|zuHause> i think a fully modular grf architecture would be required to properly be able to update grfs, that is just not going to happen
18:33:08 <planetmaker> designing newgrf architecture anew would allow that, yes
18:33:12 <planetmaker> But that's just not on
18:33:29 <Rubidium> disabling based on the existance of others is the biggest cause of mayhem
18:33:40 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but what if existing vehicle grf X disables itself when vehicle grf Y is loaded?
18:33:41 <andythenorth> one newgrf disables another?
18:33:50 <Eddi|zuHause> then adding one grf removes another
18:33:51 <planetmaker> you do that yourself
18:34:01 <Eddi|zuHause> leading to stuff like vehicles on wrong railtype
18:34:20 <andythenorth> planetmaker: but FIRS is not a vehicle grf ;) I was very specific in picking vehicles...
18:34:38 <planetmaker> every pikka newgrf does
18:34:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: your theory is flawed
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18:34:50 <Alberth> industries are just as deep in the core game structure, if not deeper
18:34:55 <bodis> so do you boys and girls keep playing much longer past 2050?
18:35:08 * Alberth stops around 1980 usually
18:35:08 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: theoretically flawed, or empirically flawed?
18:35:16 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: adding NARS2 to a game with ECS does horrible things
18:35:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, add NARS. Play.
18:35:21 <peter1138> people seem to associate "newgrf" with "new graphics"
18:35:23 <planetmaker> Then add another trainset. Boom
18:35:48 <andythenorth> NARS 2 does horrible things because it abuses a cargo slot?
18:35:49 <Alberth> bodis: end of the day, usually
18:35:59 <planetmaker> it just doesn't like ohter train grfs
18:36:12 <peter1138> how about disabling the ability to disable other sets... ;)
18:36:13 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes. but people will think "but it's just a vehicle grf"
18:36:16 <planetmaker> or engine pool enabled or so
18:36:34 <planetmaker> I might have mixed that up. But the principle is the same
18:36:38 <andythenorth> I think the problem isn't newgrf spec
18:36:47 <andythenorth> the problem is vehicle sets designed pre-engine pool
18:36:56 <andythenorth> and the bad habits of some authors (sometimes well intentioned)
18:37:14 <Alberth> bodis: I'd like to build infra structure from scratch, after about 30 years, I have connected the major things
18:37:21 <peter1138> engine pool is a mis-feature!
18:37:21 <planetmaker> thus the current solution is the only viable, andythenorth
18:37:42 <planetmaker> it's indeed the newgrf authors' fault
18:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: wrong. "multipool" is :p
18:38:02 <peter1138> oh yeah, whatever "multipool" ever was
18:38:10 <bodis> ok gonna get some rail down
18:38:13 <Alberth> andythenorth: newgrf is not developed with removal in mind
18:38:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: kate totally failed on indenting code, apparantly they removed all configurations for that and tried to autodetect spaces/tabs from the previous line, which obviously fails then the previous line is not indented at all. and kate hat like a 10% change of crashing when saving a file (luckily actually after saving)
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18:38:45 <andythenorth> yarp - I'm not even thinking about removal
18:39:02 <Terkhen> could this be fixed for the next version of the specs? :P
18:39:04 <planetmaker> adding equals removal as self-disable is triggered by other grf's presence theoretically
18:39:12 <Alberth> disabling self *is* removal
18:39:13 <andythenorth> those grfs are wrong
18:39:13 <peter1138> how to make removal work: remove all vehicles/stations/industries/houses that come from the removed grfs
18:39:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: konsole totally failed with some keyboard stuff i do not remember correctly, and it keeped on focussing the tabs instead of the actualy console, buf i forgot most of the issues
18:39:36 <andythenorth> vehicles / stations / objects should all be addition-safe
18:39:46 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: but again, i have no idea whether that got better in the last 1.5 or 2 years
18:39:50 <Rubidium> peter1138: and all vehicles / houses that depend on the cargos provided by said NewGRF
18:39:50 <andythenorth> otherwise the grf is broken (imo - I vary from specs)
18:39:52 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i think that focus thing was solved
18:39:59 <peter1138> stations were actually designed to be addition/removal safe
18:40:12 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i actually remember that one, i was annoyed as well
18:40:16 <peter1138> apart from that bit that stops the tile being traversable
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18:40:22 <peter1138> Rubidium, yes, as well :)
18:40:23 <planetmaker> andythenorth, that's only viable, if you disallow ANY check for other newgrfs
18:40:27 <planetmaker> which also breaks things
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18:40:46 <peter1138> how about: you can add/remove newgrfs, BUT ALL YOUR STUFF WILL BE WIPED FROM THE MAP, MUWAHAHAHHAAHAHAHAHACOUGH
18:40:56 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: but that is because someone was too cheap to spend a bit on the map array, that is not primarily a newgrf flaw
18:41:01 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: meanwhile i switched to debian, which has gnome 2 by default, which was good enough till now. geany is comparable nice as kde 3 kate, and i got used to the console, though it is not as good as kde 3
18:41:08 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, yeah i was :D
18:41:20 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, i had intended to, too :p
18:41:27 <andythenorth> why should a vehicle grf be disabling in presence of other grfs?
18:41:37 <andythenorth> probably (a) because author says so
18:41:49 <andythenorth> or (b) something to do with base costs etc that used to not be grf-local
18:41:51 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: because the grf spec allows it
18:42:04 <andythenorth> specs can be adjusted :P
18:42:19 <Alberth> but existing newgrfs cannot
18:42:26 <Eddi|zuHause> you can easily add to specs, but not remove
18:42:30 <Rubidium> yeah, but *when* will you drop support for the previous formats?
18:42:39 <Rubidium> till then it will have to stay as it is
18:42:50 <andythenorth> legacy support :P
18:42:55 <Terkhen> andythenorth: prepare a new version of the specs with add/removal compatibility, convince every author of every set to update to the new specs :)
18:43:12 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: immediately only allow grf version 8 ;)
18:43:24 * Alberth does thumbs up to peter1138
18:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that line was to be expected :p
18:43:55 <peter1138> newini will be text based, including the images
18:44:00 <Alberth> file format does not help
18:44:38 <peter1138> needs to be compiled into the game, heheh
18:44:46 <Alberth> nice, we even have colour :p
18:45:11 <Alberth> who needs a config file, just fix the source :p
18:45:30 <peter1138> also it will have 3d models, smooth curves, 9001 tracks per tile, cliffs, underground stuff, AND save the children
18:46:09 <Eddi|zuHause> and all vehicle sets builtin!
18:46:18 <Terkhen> you should go help with p1sim then
18:46:27 <Rubidium> peter1138: 3d is lame... we *need* 4d models... after all, they must animate!
18:46:40 <Terkhen> except for the save the children stuff, IIRC that's not on p1sim specs :P
18:47:11 <Eddi|zuHause> 12D to be upwards-compatible with string theory ;)
18:47:18 <Prof_Frink> peter1138: Will it fix global warming and bring back the unicorns?
18:47:29 <andythenorth> was it quiet here until I turned up?
18:47:30 <Eddi|zuHause> better: arbitrary-D to have 3D as a special case :p
18:47:36 <peter1138> it will have pink fluffy unicorns dancing on rainbows
18:47:43 <Terkhen> andythenorth: quite, you are great at starting conversations :P
18:48:27 <andythenorth> who adds grfs to running games? any +1s?
18:48:39 <frosch123> if it has no undo knob, i am not going to buy it
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18:49:21 <Rubidium> oh... yes, everything must be quantum entangled so we can calculate all scenarios and then the best scenario is shown to the user
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18:50:01 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I usually notice early and just restart
18:50:11 <Terkhen> I have changed ogfx+ landscape parameters a few times, though
18:50:19 <Rubidium> and as we have all states at the same time, "undoing" is just a trivial bit
18:50:25 * Eddi|zuHause notes that there are too few mathematicians around to appreciate the joke
18:50:44 <andythenorth> with canadian theme pack, forgetting to add a grf will be a non-issue
18:51:07 <planetmaker> allow only one grf ;-)
18:51:15 <andythenorth> I was thinking that
18:51:22 <andythenorth> andythenorth.grf
18:51:29 <planetmaker> and then a plug-in structure for grfs
18:51:43 <andythenorth> parameters to turn things on and off :P
18:51:59 <frosch123> andythenorth: just encapsulate everything in newgrf.cpp in a single class with very strict interfaces (i.e. without interacting with the rest of the game via global variables)
18:52:00 <andythenorth> all.grf is even better
18:52:15 <frosch123> then you can pre-load&activate grfs without starting a game
18:52:32 <frosch123> i.e. you can check everything in the main menu grf configuration
18:52:51 <frosch123> you could even display a list of what vehicles or industries each grf provides
18:53:26 <andythenorth> I have some sympathy for players in this :|
18:53:41 <andythenorth> especially for things like patchy cargo support by vehicle grfs
18:53:51 <planetmaker> sympathy for a goal doesn't mean the previous path was good
18:53:55 <andythenorth> you get 50 years into a game and find eGRVTS doesn't support alcohol
18:54:01 <andythenorth> I didn't say we should go back ;)
18:54:07 <andythenorth> just that I think we did it wrong
18:54:14 <andythenorth> I don't know yet what is better though
18:54:15 <planetmaker> you argued all the time for that ;-)
18:54:33 <andythenorth> or do you mean I argued to forbid changing?
18:54:42 <andythenorth> which I did very strongly
18:54:53 <planetmaker> no, you argued to allow (again) the (old) way of changing
18:55:03 <planetmaker> disallowing that was right.
18:55:08 <andythenorth> well I didn't intend to argue that
18:55:10 <planetmaker> Now it needs a new way, which cannot fail
18:55:25 <planetmaker> thus the path so far is all correct.
18:55:41 <Terkhen> but with the current specs I don't think that a new way is possible
18:56:05 <planetmaker> only very very limited. And then also only with cutting a bit off the specs.
18:56:34 <andythenorth> so there might be a way there
18:56:41 <frosch123> you could very well check on game start, whether there will every be a vehicle of each type available to transport every cargo
18:56:44 <andythenorth> but another way - why do they want to change grfs anyway?
18:56:47 <planetmaker> there certainly is *some* way *somewhere*.
18:56:53 <planetmaker> But it's definitely not a paved way
18:56:57 <andythenorth> what is the case for add / remove?
18:57:07 <Terkhen> frosch123: that's a good idea
18:57:35 <planetmaker> Terkhen, frosch123 it has some flaws though ;-)
18:57:58 <planetmaker> the alcohol wagon on maglev which only appears in May 2053 only to disappear in July 2053
18:58:10 <frosch123> but i really hope, some day we can load grfs in the main menu without applying them to the title game, so everything can be checked before starting the game
18:58:33 <frosch123> planetmaker: that is obviously no sane vehicle set :)
18:58:34 <planetmaker> but such check still would be better than none
18:58:50 <planetmaker> frosch123, incomplete or intended as add-on only?
18:59:35 <planetmaker> like "ultra modern super-duper flying railcars" - and then people will still wonder why they have no steam engine and wagons in 1492
18:59:46 <frosch123> a set like dbset which deprecates vehicles (when wagonspeed is disabled), is just broken
18:59:46 <andythenorth> apart from cargo support, why screw with grfs?
18:59:47 <planetmaker> but that's layer 8
19:00:05 <Alberth> andythenorth: I miss my bridge set, you upgraded firs while I play, I failed to load a tram set, I cannot transport something 15 years into the game, etc
19:01:13 <Alberth> hmm, is there a newgrf with steam engines all the way to 2000+ ?
19:01:51 <frosch123> iirc ukrs has futuristic steamengines, introduced in 2030 which go 300+ km/h or so :pü
19:02:22 <Alberth> I'd like to play longer with 'normal' steam engines
19:02:33 <frosch123> play with daylength :p
19:03:00 <frosch123> i guess that is actually the only reason people play with daylength, because they want to play longer with steam engines
19:03:03 <planetmaker> Alberth, that's one of the main reasons - too fast passage of time - that I always keep all vehicles ever invented
19:03:21 <andythenorth> beb - baby sleep time
19:03:29 <Alberth> that would be one way, but having a newgrf that keeps steam much longer work too
19:03:35 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: definitely one of the most valid reasons
19:03:55 <Alberth> planetmaker: but with breakdowns, that is not much fun
19:04:00 <frosch123> Alberth: alternatively play on a 128x256 map, which you can fill in 50 years (1900-1950)
19:04:30 <Alberth> how can I play longer than? :p
19:04:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that's what i did for my yacd-game
19:04:31 <planetmaker> Alberth, that's a setting which - to me - very very very very very seldomly is rated as 'fun'
19:04:32 <frosch123> Alberth: if vehicles do not expire, their reliability does not drop
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19:05:04 <Alberth> frosch123: interesting
19:05:32 <frosch123> would be quite pointless with dozen of engines with 25% reliability :p
19:05:42 <Alberth> planetmaker: well, it prevents the possibility to push your tracks full yeah
19:07:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the sense in "keep all vehicles"
19:07:40 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes. But mostly it just jams the whole thing... it can be worked around, but even the best maintenance with reduced break downs has them break down every so often.
19:07:44 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i pick a lousy steam engine when way better diesel and electric engines are available (for reasonable price)
19:07:46 <planetmaker> congesting the whole network
19:08:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, mostly as time passes too quickly
19:08:19 <planetmaker> and I don't want to upgrade to monorail and maglev
19:08:37 <Eddi|zuHause> pick a sensible vehicle set :p
19:08:48 <Alberth> planetmaker: thus you have to build more tracks and reoruting options
19:09:28 <Alberth> ie 2 lanes from one end to the other end will not work
19:11:43 <V453000> someone plays with breakdowns? :DD
19:11:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i certainly don't
19:12:08 <Alberth> I don't know about someone, but I do, yes :)
19:12:14 <planetmaker> Alberth, but mostly it leads to empty, inflated networks - just to compensate for breakdowns. And then it still doesn't really help
19:12:15 <Eddi|zuHause> not since i found that option :p
19:13:04 <Alberth> planetmaker: probably it does, but i have around 100 trains or so usually, not very much
19:13:16 * frosch123 plays with reduced breakdowns
19:13:36 <frosch123> no breakdowns are boring
19:13:59 <frosch123> it completely removes the randomisation of engines statistics, you can just pick the fastest one
19:14:08 <frosch123> without having to pick the most reliable one
19:15:07 <planetmaker> yes... but even red. breakdowns are not really uncommon.
19:16:15 <Alberth> it is just a matter of what you want. I am not bothered by a breakdown every now and then. I can imagine that if you want good flow, they are deadly to you
19:17:13 <Alberth> not to mention stuff like time tables, which fail to work :)
19:17:46 <Eddi|zuHause> suggestion: add pathfinder penalty for "broken down train"
19:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> (or: "train with lower (temporary) max speed")
19:18:27 <Alberth> but the path finder does route around other trains already
19:18:29 <planetmaker> I'd not mind them - iff there was a possibility to deal with them than to simply accept relatively long block of a track
19:18:46 <planetmaker> Alberth, yes... but broken down indeed is a more severe penalty :-)
19:19:02 <planetmaker> as is actually a train waiting at a red signal
19:19:10 <planetmaker> over a driving one
19:19:13 <Alberth> I agree it is quite severe
19:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but it should not route around _all_ other trains
19:20:47 <Alberth> why not? then it uses the capacity as good as possible
19:20:52 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: tracks with crossovers have the problem that even equally fast trains cross over because the other track is free, potentially blocking another train behind
19:21:09 <Eddi|zuHause> thus reducing the track capacity
19:21:24 <planetmaker> yep. a tripple-track solution does not work
19:21:45 <Eddi|zuHause> worst case is a two-way double track, where trains switch places constantly
19:21:52 <Eddi|zuHause> because one overtakes the other
19:21:58 <Eddi|zuHause> then the other overtakes the first again
19:22:08 <planetmaker> and each stops then
19:22:53 <Eddi|zuHause> this needs more detailed pathfinder penalties, so the overtaking track is never triggered when the train ahead has equal or higher speed
19:23:21 <Alberth> I have quite long stretches of tracks with few cross-overs, and don't really see that problem. But perhaps it is due to the fact that my tracks are more empty
19:24:55 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: that is probably very difficult to accomplish
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19:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> there must be some (computationally) fast way to get the speed of the train occupying a trackbit
19:31:17 <Alberth> I am more worried about 'overtaking track' detection.
19:32:00 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: that is already possible to differentiate by reverse path signal penalty
19:34:01 <Alberth> why would such a track always be build like that?
19:34:57 <Eddi|zuHause> you can also make the reserved track penalty zero, then even the curve penalty would prevent switching
19:35:52 <Eddi|zuHause> but as long as you cannot differentiate between slower and faster trains, this does not make any sense at all
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19:38:20 <V453000> planetmaker: rail has faster loading/unloading times than maglev without newgrfs
19:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> V453000: "unloading speed" != "unloading time"
19:39:02 <Eddi|zuHause> "unloading time" = "unloading speed" * capacity
19:39:03 <planetmaker> I checked the source but didn't find the loading speed
19:39:20 <V453000> the percentages of maglev add up by 15, percentages of rail seem to increase by 20 ... dont know if the time spent is the same
19:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> the newgrf spec should have the default vehicle properties
19:39:51 <planetmaker> then the loading speed is the same. The loading time longer for maglev as capacity is larger
19:39:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess it's like 5 units per step
19:40:11 <planetmaker> that's what I recall, too
19:40:49 <V453000> so there is equal "amount of cargo" per second
19:40:56 <V453000> but maglev trains stay longer in the station
19:41:08 <bodis> is it possible to add signals on this station so I have 2 trains entering and 2 leaving at the same time?
19:41:31 <bodis> 2 tracks on the left come in and on the right go out
19:42:01 <andythenorth> should I try a daylength patch?
19:42:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: they have lots of quirks
19:42:31 <Eddi|zuHause> bodis: use path signals
19:42:37 <andythenorth> I like long games
19:42:54 <andythenorth> but I'm not convinced that starting before about 1880 is worth it
19:43:19 <bodis> hmm will have to see how they work
19:43:32 <andythenorth> also I can't be arsed to make FISH and HEQS go back beyond the 1870s
19:43:47 <andythenorth> and making FIRS do early industries well is TMWFTLB
19:44:11 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: put the early industries in a separate grf?
19:44:21 <andythenorth> it's more a problem of gameplay
19:44:46 <V453000> andythenorth: you need some very good newgrf settings for long games I think :) to have many engine-evolution
19:45:21 <andythenorth> my recent games go 1870-2020
19:45:32 <andythenorth> I would like them to be longer
19:45:58 <andythenorth> in single player with YACD, there was still plenty left to do by 2020, but I was bored of the vehicles
19:46:44 <SpComb> just use the copy-paste patch to build faster
19:46:51 <andythenorth> maybe I should turn 'build while paused' on
19:47:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i turned that on out of pure annoyance because the way it was handled got changed
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20:03:28 *** Biolunar has joined #openttd
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20:09:22 <supermop> does oberhmer frequent this channel?
20:12:02 <Terkhen> I have never seen him here
20:12:16 <Terkhen> try @seen, I can't write that strange character
20:12:55 <Twerkhoven[L]> @seen oberhümer
20:12:55 <DorpsGek> Twerkhoven[L]: I have not seen oberhümer.
20:13:00 <Twerkhoven[L]> copy-paste is your friend
20:13:15 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I have not seen oberhumer.
20:13:20 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: I have not seen oberhuemer.
20:13:22 <Terkhen> TWerkhoven: it appears as a ? character to me
20:13:36 <planetmaker> you should get a better IRC client then
20:13:38 <Terkhen> only the one written by supermop
20:13:56 <Terkhen> I can see that ü fine
20:14:22 <Terkhen> � <--- but when supermop mentioned him I saw this
20:15:12 <Terkhen> heh, on irclogs they look the same, but not here in my client :P
20:17:08 <planetmaker> they look the same here.
20:17:55 <Terkhen> Ï dïscövërëd thät Ï cän wrïtë ït töö
20:18:41 <Terkhen> ÿ <-- which language uses this?
20:19:36 <Prof_Frink> Yes, but can you do an umlaut on an n?
20:20:11 <Terkhen> heh, internet has made me stupid :O
20:20:25 <Terkhen> of course I can write it, it is used in spanish too but no one ever bothers with it
20:20:29 <planetmaker> let me guess... Spanish uses it, too?
20:20:40 <Terkhen> only in a few "corner cases" though :P
20:21:00 <planetmaker> like ß probably ;-)
20:23:23 <planetmaker> also a trema doesn't make sense.
20:23:32 <Terkhen> ñ <-- I can do something similar :)
20:24:18 <supermop> always good to see discussion of diacritics
20:28:55 <frosch123> more amazing than letters with stuff above, are letters without stuff above, like "ı"
20:29:04 <Eddi|zuHause> <Terkhen> ÿ <-- which language uses this? <-- iirc dutch uses that
20:29:11 <Eddi|zuHause> as an i-j ligature
20:29:21 <Twerkhoven[L]> but without the dots
20:29:47 <Twerkhoven[L]> when typing it as a single character usually
20:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "simplified typing" is not what i meant
20:31:15 <Hirundo> Dutch i-j is typed and written as ij, not ÿ
20:35:43 <Twerkhoven[L]> doesn't stop some ppl from using it as ij though
20:36:11 <andythenorth> saw that advertised when I was in vegas ;)
20:36:22 <andythenorth> we went for a helicopter ride in grand canyon instead
20:36:48 <Bilge> Does auto-renew and auto-replace continue to work if you log off from a multiplayer game?
20:37:12 <andythenorth> this one is a bit closer to me
20:37:20 <Terkhen> the gran canyon ride sounds more impressive :P
20:37:27 <Terkhen> Bilge: it should, yes
20:37:43 <Terkhen> andythenorth: nice :P
20:37:55 <andythenorth> grand canyon is big
20:38:00 <andythenorth> ottd needs cliffs :P
20:38:34 <Terkhen> code the grand canyon as a huge newobject :)
20:39:20 <__ln__> grand canyon must have taken a long time to dig
20:40:01 <Terkhen> millions of years I guess
20:40:04 <Eddi|zuHause> it was only 12000 years since god created the earth
20:40:13 <Eddi|zuHause> how could it have taken millions of years then?
20:40:30 <planetmaker> not rather like a bit over 5700?
20:41:06 <andythenorth> probably more than the terraforming limit
20:41:13 <Terkhen> depends on the church you are visiting I guess
20:41:48 <__ln__> the person at grand canyon national park entrance said that they had 10 feet of snow in the winter.
20:42:53 <planetmaker> Terkhen, of course the one of the flying spaghetti monster ;-)
20:43:46 <planetmaker> oh oh... sirXY is back...
20:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i had that same thought :p
20:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway, i'm fairly sure people don't believe that the world began with the israelis leaving egypt.
20:45:47 <Terkhen> I don't remember much about him besides being interested on that futuristic project before realizing that it was just a plan
20:46:52 <planetmaker> from what I just saw along the lines of "I'm disappointed that OpenTTD evolved so little in the time of my absense"... well ;-)
20:47:06 <Rubidium> pff... churches, or rather Gods, are just easy scapegoats. Tsunami: "God's will", earthquake: "God's will", priests doing sinful things: "God's will"
20:47:54 <frosch123> the world was created by the invisible pink unicorn 20 minutes ago. the world was created including all memories predating its creation
20:47:55 <planetmaker> are you ill, andythenorth ? ;-)
20:48:08 <Alberth> Rubidium: firing nuclear weapons: no problem, God will jump in at the right time
20:48:23 <Rubidium> Alberth: God wanted them to be fired
20:48:26 <Chris_Booth> Rubidium: you need to watch the film, the man who sued god!
20:48:36 <Terkhen> planetmaker: yes, that was his attitude regarding the futuristic project too :P
20:49:56 <Eddi|zuHause> his "futuristic project" "evolved" from basically a feature request list this long: [········] to one this long: [·················] within one year.
20:49:59 <Alberth> frosch123: and I was thinking it was just computing the question for the answer about life, the universe, and everything
20:50:23 <andythenorth> but I need to do something about the empty tiles
20:50:40 <andythenorth> I've given it a garden and such
20:51:10 <Alberth> it just sells machines?
20:51:22 <Terkhen> more machines then :)
20:51:53 <andythenorth> does it need anything?
20:51:56 <Hirundo> Or perhaps rearrange the tiles, and remove one row of tiles from the bottom-left side
20:52:04 <andythenorth> there are alternative layouts ;)
20:52:10 <andythenorth> does it need fences?
20:52:16 <andythenorth> fences just became possible
20:52:38 <Hirundo> If there are no fences, I'm gonna 'borrow' one of those dump trucks for fun ;)
20:52:42 <Alberth> high ones, with junk and machine parts stacked all over the place imho
20:53:14 <andythenorth> it makes other stuff - like metal structures and such
20:53:28 <Terkhen> new disaster: drunk guys steal heavy machinery from unguarded machinery shop
20:53:39 <Alberth> large sheets of metal would lay outside then
20:53:41 <andythenorth> destroys farm fields + nearby houses
20:53:50 <Chris_Booth> stacks of rust wheels
20:54:05 <Chris_Booth> and rusty scaffold
20:54:35 <Chris_Booth> and a big tank full of yellow paint for all the shiny JCBs
20:55:29 <andythenorth> I could just do some ground texture
20:55:43 <planetmaker> some dirt tracks ;-)
20:55:57 <planetmaker> from the "test pacourt"
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20:57:06 <Chris_Booth> you need some broken windows aswell
20:57:17 <Chris_Booth> from the robbery that happened lastnight :P
20:57:54 <andythenorth> maybe that layout is not the best
20:58:18 <Chris_Booth> like that one andythenorth
20:58:38 <Chris_Booth> but has a lack of smash windows yellow paint, rusty wheels and pipes
20:59:02 * Terkhen likes that one better too
20:59:15 <peter1138> yeah, it's a bit 'clean'
20:59:53 <andythenorth> maybe I should add dirt to the tile, like the default steel mill
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20:59:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth, I'd move the houses a bit more to the edge
20:59:59 <andythenorth> a project for another day
21:00:05 <Chris_Booth> looks like one of the factories in those Chinese ghost towns
21:01:10 <andythenorth> part of one of those buildings is missing
21:01:13 * Eddi|zuHause is still of the opinion you should rather make replacements for the last "original" industries instead of endlessly fiddling with the already replaced ones
21:02:25 <planetmaker> and meanwhile it's possible to deprecate a layout without actually breaking savegame compatibility ;-)
21:03:04 <supermop> if all of the dump trucks are new, why would they be rusty?
21:03:24 <Chris_Booth> supermop: they have not been painted
21:03:42 <Chris_Booth> you see how long something stay shiny for when it isn't painted
21:04:01 <Bilge> haha oh wow just cleared a massive area of land and bribed the local authority twice just to find out I still can't build another airport in that city anyway
21:05:50 <planetmaker> much cheaper without any risk ;-)
21:06:13 <supermop> if i ran the dump truck factory, I would not assemble the truck and park it outside until it was painted
21:06:42 <supermop> saves you having to disassemble and clean it before spraying
21:06:55 <Alberth> but the parts come from elsewhere and are not painted yet
21:07:18 <supermop> buy them from a supplier that does paint them
21:07:31 <Alberth> you paint after assembly :)
21:08:02 <supermop> also in FIRS the machine shop takes delivery of raw metal, rather than chassis and shovels
21:08:10 <Alberth> customers have such weird colour requirements :p
21:09:03 <Bilge> Spending millions and millions and levelling land and bribing just to be cockblocked anyway
21:09:03 <Alberth> I don't think the higher powers are well emulated in the game
21:09:03 <supermop> can I get my HEQs for cheap if they messed up the paint color?
21:09:49 <planetmaker> supermop, sure. Even for free :-P
21:10:01 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: the existing industries are already drawn :P
21:10:11 <andythenorth> why is redrawing them a priority?
21:10:24 * Alberth considers an HEQs extension that gives weird coloured vehicles if it gets sold below some price
21:10:37 <Eddi|zuHause> because they are the wrong style
21:11:21 <supermop> hmm 2nd hand equipment
21:12:02 <Chris_Booth> 2nd hand trains would be nice
21:12:43 <Chris_Booth> that feature would take a lot of coding though
21:12:55 <Chris_Booth> and I don't ever expect to see it in the game
21:13:19 <supermop> if a big company buys tons of class X locomotive, that class becomes incrementally cheaper for all
21:13:36 <supermop> due to it being mass produced
21:14:27 <supermop> if big company sells all of its class Xs after 10 years, maybe the other companies can buy some rebuilt second hand class x for cheap
21:14:52 <supermop> forgetting that idea all together:
21:15:08 <supermop> within one company, in the vehicle list
21:15:25 <supermop> have a category for decommissioned vehicles
21:16:01 <supermop> so you can decommission a train instead of selling it,
21:16:15 <supermop> the recommision it for a lower price than selling it
21:16:22 <supermop> basically a cloud depot
21:16:47 <supermop> that lets you build trains out of all of your currently unused stock
21:24:08 <Bilge> If you give me the information I'll rewrite it myself
21:24:34 <Chris_Booth> Bilge: what is wrong with it?
21:24:40 <Chris_Booth> all the info is in the game
21:24:44 <Chris_Booth> play it find out about it
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21:36:55 <Bilge> You can't click on a plane in flight to copy its orders
21:37:36 *** tparker has joined #openttd
21:38:58 <Bilge> Nor can you click it on the ground
21:39:06 <Bilge> You just can't copy a plane's orders
21:53:29 <supermop> click in the vehicle list
21:53:55 <bodis> trying to fund a farm in arctic climate but get the message that site is unsuitable
21:54:07 <bodis> are there criteria where farms can be placed?
21:54:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "Sarkozy couldn't shut off the nuclear power stations even if he wanted to"
21:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> "he wouldn't be able to reach the switch"
21:55:57 <bodis> tried placing it on grass but it aint happening
21:56:54 <Eddi|zuHause> you use any newgrfs?
22:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> is there enough flat area around?
22:00:59 <bodis> yep just leveled 12x12 square on every level
22:02:54 <bodis> does taking loads of food to towns make them grow quicker?
22:04:05 <bodis> so why when you open town page it says needs food for more growth
22:04:30 <Yexo> it needs 1 ton of food per month for any growth at all
22:04:35 <Yexo> and that is only for towns above the snowline
22:51:36 <Bilge> Yexo: is this a know bug? It seems you can share orders but not copy orders with aircraft
22:51:54 <Yexo> you can't? that's strange
22:52:10 <Eddi|zuHause> not to me either
22:52:47 <Eddi|zuHause> you can't copy orders if you already have an order
22:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can't copy orders if the vehicle cannot go there (like air plane to heliport)
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