IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-18
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05:38:10 <KJN> Hi guys, is there a way to fix a "referncing invalid vehicle" thing (with savegames) on my own?
05:58:49 <KJN> Is there any OpenTTD expert out there?
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06:12:46 <planetmaker> KJN: try 'resetengines' in the console. But you only get invalid vehicles if you ignored a big red warning message
06:13:32 <KJN> My computer crushed after beeing "sleeped" on several occasions.
06:14:10 <KJN> I restarted it. Reopened TTD and show some savegames with "chunk something" and all the rest with that vehicle warning.
06:15:42 <KJN> Where should I open this console? I cannot load any game right now...
06:16:11 <planetmaker> thus you agreed to them appearing ;-)
06:16:45 <KJN> The only red warning massege i the one I see when trying to load a game!
06:17:12 <KJN> I don;t even know what taht "big red warning" looks like!
06:19:04 <planetmaker> my suspicion is that you change newgrfs at some stage in those savegames
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06:19:27 <andythenorth> with YACD, power stations might make more sense
06:19:29 <planetmaker> but you could make one of those savegames available.
06:21:04 <planetmaker> are your savegames top secret?
06:21:32 <KJN> All the savegames I have (or those not older than two days at least) are: either unknown chunk type or invalid vehicle.
06:21:46 <KJN> No they are obviously not :)
06:22:04 <planetmaker> [08:19] planetmaker but you could make one of those savegames available. <-- where's then the problem with that?
06:22:32 <KJN> What do you mean "available"? Available to you, you mean?
06:22:44 <planetmaker> i.e. give me a link to one :-)
06:23:20 <planetmaker> KJN: what version of OpenTTD do you use?
06:23:29 <planetmaker> and which did you use to create those savegames?
06:24:05 <KJN> Ok. You want me to upload it somehere, mail it or post it?
06:24:19 <KJN> Bot the program and savegames are 1.1.0
06:24:27 <planetmaker> you'll get 'invalid chunks' if you used non-official, i.e. patched versions of OpenTTD, which usually are incompatible
06:24:48 <planetmaker> uploading it somewhere sounds fine
06:25:07 <KJN> Alle I have is from official OpenTTD website. i don;t even use extras of any sorts.
06:30:04 <KJN> I'm sending all of them just for any case.
06:31:13 <KJN> utosave15 is probably tha latest (probably since it's that unknown chunk).
06:37:52 <planetmaker> I see now what you mean...
06:38:32 <peter1138> shame your directory list doesn't include timestamps
06:40:21 <planetmaker> but good question... how old are these autosaves according to you filemanager, KJN ?
06:41:30 <KJN> the oldest autosave0 is today 5:04
06:42:02 <KJN> the newest autosave15 is 6:06
06:43:07 <KJN> Autosaves monthly. No wonder that all of them are from today.
06:44:13 <KJN> I also put one savegame from yesterday (not autosave).
06:45:17 <planetmaker> where did you get your openttd version from?
06:47:55 <KJN> openttd official website I guess
06:48:44 <KJN> Had a previous version, read the post somewhere there's a noewer one and went to openttd.org
06:49:24 <KJN> I might have used a link provided but I doubt it. I usually prefer downloading things from official sites muself.
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06:49:51 <KJN> Nothing suspicious here, trust me.
06:50:00 <planetmaker> well, I'm unfortunately out of clues for now; I don't manage to unpack the savegames at this moment, thus no hex editing and I've not seen this behaviour before from official release versions
06:50:23 <planetmaker> does it work for new savegames you create?
06:50:34 <KJN> How about those which show invalid vehicle and not unkwon chunk?
06:50:58 <planetmaker> you don't use newgrfs, right?
06:51:20 <KJN> I'll check just to be 100% sure.
06:51:38 <planetmaker> I'd have expected that when loading very old savegames with newgrfs which did not yet save their use in the savegame.
06:51:50 <KJN> No I don;t. Just chcecked.
06:52:32 <peter1138> they're all missing lots of chunks
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06:53:15 <KJN> Te thing is I use vanilla version straight from the "box". and I'm really pissed off 'cos I was trying a new strategy in this game to find out if it's better than a standard one.
06:53:58 <KJN> I spend several days of carefull planning. Normally I would not give a damn and start a new game simply.
06:54:04 <planetmaker> I understand that
06:55:06 <peter1138> do you have a save of the last working version?
06:55:20 <KJN> I found the last version wroking. It's from the 15th.
06:55:48 <KJN> Funny :) I typed the answer at the time you typed a question :)
06:56:16 <planetmaker> which save is that?
06:56:25 <KJN> You don't have it. upload?
06:56:42 <planetmaker> or the non-autosave?
06:57:12 <KJN> All autosaves are corrupted.
06:59:11 <planetmaker> ah, it didn't show up right then. Got it now
07:00:10 <KJN> It dodn't since I uploaded it after your request.
07:18:23 <KJN> I'm back (and patient) - take any time you need to restore soth of that. And if you do... I'll name a child after you! :)
07:22:41 <peter1138> so it could be that
07:25:03 <planetmaker> you're playing MP yacd?
07:25:42 <peter1138> i dunno if it is actually yacd or not
07:25:47 <peter1138> but i'm not using any newgrfs
07:28:55 <Terkhen> I played yacd 1.0 with a friend for an hour and we had no desyncs
07:36:12 <KJN> planetmaker: Any luck? Or you just simply don't want my child to have stupid name?
07:36:47 <planetmaker> no luck, I'm afraid
07:37:22 <planetmaker> for now I will, as I've work work stuff to do. And I still have no idea how that could come by
07:37:40 <planetmaker> What would really help us is a way how you manage to create the broken savegames
07:37:45 <KJN> Thanks for yot time and effort.
07:37:48 <planetmaker> If you can willingly cause that...
07:37:56 <planetmaker> that'll probably help a lot
07:38:30 <KJN> Well I was surprised myself.
07:38:43 <planetmaker> like 'take this savegame, do that, save'. But... I'd really wonder if it will be that easy. Others would have noticed that, too, then
07:38:44 <KJN> It's never happened before.
07:39:17 <KJN> I don;t think it will work. 3 days has passd since it saved correctly.
07:39:32 <KJN> How can you follow everything I dod?
07:40:11 <KJN> One hint: the computer has been put to sleep on several occassions with the game running.
07:40:33 <planetmaker> unless you use a desync debug build and would give us all those data. But that's probably more work than it's worth
07:40:43 <planetmaker> maybe there's some kind of interference there...
07:40:47 <KJN> After several "sleeps" all the saves come up corrupted.
07:40:50 <planetmaker> with the sleep mode
07:40:57 <KJN> All of them including non-autosave.
07:41:44 <KJN> I'm pretty sure it was the forst time I did it so often.
07:43:22 <KJN> Sleeping saves a cmputer state to a hardrive. Maybe OpenTTD has some data stored somehere which I disregarded at that time. It's a long guess.
07:44:36 <KJN> I laso noticed you cannot ryn Skype and OpenTTD at the same time. That's something I'm sure of.
07:44:58 <KJN> *also (run (sorry for this).
07:46:07 <KJN> Not with me. OpenTTD changes instantly into "fancy" colors on my machine.
07:46:31 <planetmaker> right... do you have a desktop manager or wallpaper changer running?
07:47:13 <peter1138> well, 3rd time lucky, it didn't desync
07:47:15 <KJN> I have a way to show it to you though if you give sec.
07:51:31 <KJN> No I don't :( My recording software doesn't capture fullcreen openttd :(
07:51:55 <peter1138> i suspect you've hit some filesystem corruption with your suspend/resumes
07:53:09 <KJN> Well, that would make more files corrupted and onlu those saved BEFORE sleeping.
07:53:41 <KJN> That problem however applies only to openttd.
07:54:16 <KJN> In a most annoying way since it DOESN"T tell you savegames are not good.
07:54:58 <KJN> It worked just fine until I decided to step back and load some autosave.
07:55:57 <peter1138> i'm pretty sure it does tell you saving fails
07:57:30 <KJN> Well do you really think I would keep saving this files for several hours if it did tell me saves are unsuccessful?
07:58:22 <peter1138> no, hence i suspect fs corruption
07:59:42 <KJN> Ok. Let's test this theory. What do you suggest?
08:14:15 <peter1138> hmm, could be memory corruption
08:14:41 <peter1138> dunno if that would result in an unsaveable game though
08:22:46 <KJN> Ok. Guys. Thanks for all the help. Now I have to take my cat to the vet. He has a corruption of a tail which is equally or more painful than me losing three days of careful playing.
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08:32:03 * andythenorth has a funny feeling that vehicle ferries are just not likely to be possible
08:32:11 <andythenorth> seems too complicated :P
08:33:50 <peter1138> what's the problem?
08:35:07 <andythenorth> in respect of 'vehicles inside vehicles'
08:35:10 <andythenorth> as per forum thread
08:35:15 <andythenorth> and often-discussed
08:35:27 <peter1138> it's surely possible
08:35:56 <andythenorth> thinking about it makes my brain ache
08:35:59 <andythenorth> although I'm not very clever :P
08:36:14 <peter1138> what's hard about the concept?
08:36:52 <andythenorth> well why limit it as just ferries?
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08:37:04 <andythenorth> basically to work, it needs 'vehicle inside vehicle'
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08:37:19 <andythenorth> and from there it's a short hop-step-and-a-jump to full intermodal
08:38:15 <andythenorth> then we end up wanting a vehicle type 'container'
08:38:15 <bobingabout> if using MSVC enterprise 2008, where do i put the files from openttduseful?
08:38:21 <andythenorth> which can only move on other vehicles
08:38:37 <andythenorth> then why stop there - container, crate, sack, parcel, box, envelope
08:39:04 <andythenorth> and you end up with individually routed cargo packets, only implemented as vehicles in some bonkers system
08:39:17 <peter1138> well no need to go that far
08:39:44 <peter1138> there is the problem of how to (un)load vehicles on vehicles
08:40:04 <andythenorth> would there need to be a new kind of magic station?
08:40:04 <bobingabout> sounds like you're talking about a cargo in a cargo
08:40:08 <peter1138> could just be done by attaching a depot to the station
08:40:29 <peter1138> bobingabout, originally road/rail vehicles on ships. he's taking it too far :)
08:40:42 <andythenorth> I don't see how you avoid taking it that far :P
08:40:56 <andythenorth> all I have to do is create an RV 'container' with 0hp and max speed 0
08:41:08 <bobingabout> so where do i put my .h and .lib files then?
08:41:08 <andythenorth> and an RV that can load RVs
08:41:32 <andythenorth> I don't think it wouldn't be fun, I just think it's bonkers :)
08:43:53 * andythenorth takes that advice
08:44:10 <andythenorth> do you think anyone else will do it? I will take bets in units of 50p...
08:45:21 <peter1138> also remember that you're paid to transport cargo
08:45:56 <peter1138> so transporting vehicles probably wouldn't pay anything directly
08:46:23 <andythenorth> would you be able to transport competitor vehicles?
08:47:47 <peter1138> if the .h file is part of your source, it goes with your source
08:48:01 <peter1138> if it's part of the library, it goes somewhere else
08:48:13 <bobingabout> openttduseful files
08:48:31 <peter1138> library and library header files go in some random place that depends on what OS, compiler, etc, etc...
08:49:23 <bobingabout> i already said MSVC enterprise 2008, so... i should just try to find wherever that installed itself and place my lib files with the other lib files in there, and the H files in the include folder in there too?
08:50:56 <peter1138> basically you put them all somewhere you like
08:51:26 <peter1138> then adjust MSVC's config to include that location as library and header paths
08:51:27 <bobingabout> but then how does the program know where to find it
08:51:41 <bobingabout> yeah, i looked for a config, can't find one
08:52:03 <bobingabout> i googled it, and it says tools, options, directories, which doesn't seem to exist for me
08:52:24 <bobingabout> i went to tools, and ooptions, but nowhere in the tree of options is there one called directories
08:59:04 <bobingabout> actually, i think i found it
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09:10:39 <peter1138> aand it desynced again
09:10:53 <planetmaker> time to turn on desync debug ;-)
09:11:12 <Terkhen> yes, debugging is fun :)
09:11:20 <planetmaker> set desync_debug 3 IIRC
09:11:51 <planetmaker> then save the game. and reload, so that it's a defined starting condition which can be followed
09:12:11 <peter1138> it probably won't desync then :p
09:12:14 <planetmaker> without a reload it's pointless
09:12:38 <planetmaker> you then simply need to continue playing ;-)
09:12:43 <Terkhen> andythenorth: what do you mean, the highway? :P
09:12:53 <andythenorth> the entire yard :P
09:13:00 <andythenorth> might work nicely with yacd
09:13:16 <planetmaker> set debug_level desync=3
09:13:21 <planetmaker> is probably more correct, peter1138
09:14:35 <peter1138> debug_level desync=3
09:14:40 <peter1138> so now i have no savegame :p
09:15:11 <planetmaker> stupid to turn that off ;-)
09:16:45 <peter1138> well i've got a crash.sav
09:16:55 <peter1138> Error: Assertion failed at line 1105 of /usr/src/OpenTTD/compile/src/openttd.cpp: memcmp(&st->goods[c].cargo, buff, sizeof(StationCargoList)) == 0
09:16:58 <peter1138> Crash encountered, generating crash log...
09:20:04 <peter1138> that line asserts again
09:23:30 <peter1138> so maybe yacd does something that's incompatible with desync debug
09:26:16 * peter1138 suspects that vehicle ferries are TMWFTLB
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09:26:47 <andythenorth> they could bring some other win though
09:26:52 <andythenorth> but that makes even more work :|
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09:27:11 * dihedral is reminded of "the gassman commeth"
09:27:39 <peter1138> <3 flanders & swann
09:29:25 <peter1138> yeah, so you need orders for vehicles to wait at some kind of ferry loading depot
09:29:38 <peter1138> then you need to make sure they board a ferry going the right way
09:30:17 <peter1138> and disembark in the right place
09:31:34 <peter1138> mmm, lots of uis :p
09:32:37 <andythenorth> what if they need servicing while en-route?
09:32:42 <andythenorth> or if they break down?
09:33:12 <andythenorth> assuming that it's silly to limit them to just ships, what happens if a plane/train/RV crashes while carrying other vehicles?
09:34:14 <Terkhen> we could apply the same policy than with passengers: everything is destroyed in a huge fireball
09:35:06 <andythenorth> when my plane crashes, I get a few weeks to clone it
09:35:26 <andythenorth> if my train crashes with 64 vehicles on it, how many news messages do I get :P
09:35:40 * andythenorth doesn't think it's a bad idea, just....extensive :)
09:36:05 <andythenorth> quite complicated for something that is effectively the same net result as a transfer order
09:36:18 <andythenorth> although it would be nice to have mixed-cargo ships :|
09:36:47 <andythenorth> what if I autoreplace a vehicle with one that has fewer slots for other vehicles?
09:36:49 <peter1138> vehicle ferries do make some sense
09:36:51 <Terkhen> IMO mixed cargo ships is simpler than vehicles inside other vehicles
09:37:00 <peter1138> vehicle trains a little, but less so
09:37:04 <andythenorth> Terkhen: but it would come for free with vehicles-in-vehicles
09:37:07 <peter1138> vehicle aircraft... yeah, not really very common
09:37:34 <andythenorth> you'd need to be able to parachute them
09:37:48 <Noldo_> I have a feeling UN might ferry their hardware around the world
09:38:15 <peter1138> hmm, vans on trains on boats...
09:38:53 <peter1138> hmm, or do "virtual ferries"
09:39:06 <peter1138> and just have vehicles teleport between docks, heh
09:39:27 <peter1138> (basically tunnels, but not straight, heh)
09:39:28 <andythenorth> light aircraft on vans on trucks on narrow gauge trains on standard gauge trains on landing craft on barges on boats
09:39:42 <andythenorth> peter1138: depots
09:40:08 <peter1138> the teleport is how i'd envisage vehicle ferries to work anyway
09:40:35 <peter1138> the ferry contains a list of vehicles "on" it, but really they're stopped in the waiting depot at the dock
09:40:52 <peter1138> when the ferry lands, they're teleported to the approriate depot on the other side
09:41:09 <andythenorth> it's kind of neat
09:41:21 <peter1138> i mean, unless you want funky loading animations too...
09:41:26 <andythenorth> but what is necessary about the game?
09:41:27 <peter1138> what's not necessary?
09:41:50 <andythenorth> ferries would be cool
09:42:01 <peter1138> is that cool enough? hmmmmmmm
09:42:34 <andythenorth> means I can add fairly infinite capacity to my train routes :P
09:42:38 <Terkhen> it's one of those things that is cool enough for having someone else doing it, but not cool enough for getting yourself into doing it :P
09:42:54 <peter1138> Terkhen, i might ;)
09:43:04 <peter1138> andythenorth, well you could limit the amount of vehicles waiting
09:43:20 <peter1138> and obviously limit the number of vehicles in a vehicle
09:43:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause was suggesting limiting number of ships at a dock (and making docks multi-stop)
09:43:50 <andythenorth> which would destroy my fun with 'ship routes have infinite capacity' :P
09:44:08 <peter1138> until ships become solid, multistop docks are pointless, yeah
09:44:17 <planetmaker> it'll make sense. If you could combine several docks to one station
09:44:18 <Terkhen> I wonder how I managed to crash my irc client by pressing Ctrl+Z
09:44:32 <andythenorth> not sure solid ships are needed for multistop docks?
09:44:37 <peter1138> you backgrounded it
09:44:40 <andythenorth> RVs aren't entirely solid
09:44:50 <andythenorth> RVs are only solid like atoms are solid
09:45:02 <peter1138> i wanted to do multistop docks anyway
09:45:12 <andythenorth> that would be initially cooler than ferries
09:45:24 <peter1138> though last time i remember thinking about it multistop road stops was in a state of flux too
09:45:29 <andythenorth> ferries means a whole newgrf spec and other crap no?
09:45:33 <Terkhen> IIRC that was waiting on "NewGRF state machines for stations" too
09:46:04 <peter1138> andythenorth, just a callback, i suppose
09:46:15 <andythenorth> 'how many vehicles can I hold?'
09:46:20 <andythenorth> 'type of vehicles?'
09:46:38 <andythenorth> those? And anything else?
09:46:45 <andythenorth> total cargo capacity (weight?)
09:47:14 <andythenorth> I'll support it in FISH if you patch it
09:47:15 <planetmaker> just a vehicle flag
09:47:21 <Terkhen> there is nothing that says the "real" size of a vehicle, but you could just always define it as "I can carry X vehicles of type Y"
09:47:21 <andythenorth> I have some annoying vehicle ferries anyway
09:47:26 <planetmaker> it's up to the newgrf to set all other properties
09:47:28 <andythenorth> I wanted to delete them from FISH
09:47:33 <planetmaker> like heli vs. plane
09:47:34 <Terkhen> or use a callback to check if the vehicle can be carried, similar to the "can be attached" callback
09:47:48 <planetmaker> or articulated vs. 'normal'
09:48:26 <peter1138> yeah, could just be a simple property
09:48:51 <peter1138> but none of that is necessary to get the basics going
09:49:27 <peter1138> now, the order system...
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09:50:40 <Terkhen> what about a special order that makes the vehicle wait until it is loaded by other vehicle and then unloaded somewhere? the loaded vehicle orders would be freezed then
09:51:30 <andythenorth> say I have a ferry for 8 vehicles, and I only have one on the route...how do I specify the load amount?
09:51:52 <Markk> What have I missed now?
10:03:19 <peter1138> way to kill the conversation :p
10:05:01 <andythenorth> was going so nicely too :)
10:12:27 <andythenorth> 'goto x, await transport?'
10:12:54 <andythenorth> 'transport to y'
10:13:12 <andythenorth> can't think of a way to consolidate that into one order
10:13:14 <Terkhen> cargo does not decide where to go
10:13:22 <andythenorth> but vehicles do?
10:13:34 <Terkhen> but IMO as long as they are being transported they should be treated as cargo
10:13:50 <Terkhen> the carrier vehicle orders have preference
10:14:06 * andythenorth puzzles how that could work
10:14:20 <andythenorth> assuming carried vehicle is trying to get from A - D
10:14:24 <andythenorth> and the ferry link B-C
10:14:43 <andythenorth> carried vehicle needs to have orders for A-B-C-D no?
10:17:56 <Terkhen> go to A, go to B and wait for load, go to D
10:18:44 <planetmaker> sounds reasonable
10:24:27 <peter1138> if you have a specific type of depot for loading/unloading, then that it just a simple goto order
10:24:48 <peter1138> then you just need a way of getting unloaded in the right place
10:25:41 <andythenorth> so you need to know to 'transport to C, get off the boat'
10:25:56 <peter1138> you need to get on the right boat
10:26:02 <peter1138> then get off at the right place, yeha
10:26:21 <andythenorth> well you don't get on a boat that doesn't have C in it's orders?
10:26:26 <peter1138> could be "get on any boat that unloads at C
10:27:14 <peter1138> that would then be 1 order for loading onto the correct boat, and unloading at the correct place
10:27:32 <Terkhen> it could be converted to cargo with its destination set correctly for yacd, then a boat going to C would pick the vehicle up automatically
10:27:34 <andythenorth> so for carrier vehicle, when it arrives, it just iterates it's orders for destination i, and loads any vehicle which unloads at i
10:27:38 <Terkhen> but then you depend on yacd :)
10:28:06 <peter1138> i don't think converting vehicles to cargo is the right way
10:28:07 <andythenorth> and then you head into the crazy intermodal system I described earlier :)
10:28:14 <andythenorth> which is the *correct* way to do it
10:28:20 <andythenorth> but means it will never ship :P
10:28:59 * andythenorth would rather a small bit of specific code was patched on for one cool feature, instead of a full new framework
10:29:38 * andythenorth goes back to work
10:31:23 <peter1138> with the explicit disembark order, cargo routing would still work, i guess
10:31:46 <peter1138> i guess they'd be like waypoints for cargo routing purposes
10:32:45 <andythenorth> if I have orders that get my vehicle from A-D, then the graph would be ok for yacd purposes?
10:32:55 <andythenorth> assuming cargo wants to go from A-D
10:33:08 <andythenorth> that it gets from B-C on a ferry is no business of yacd's
10:36:41 <peter1138> i think terkhen is suggesting a system that would automatically route through the ship using the pathfinders
10:36:59 <andythenorth> so it would be treated like a bridge or such?
10:37:14 <andythenorth> the ferry becomes infrastructure...
10:37:54 <Terkhen> if the vehicle gets converted into "cargo wanting to go to C", it would be picked up by the next vehicle as normal
10:38:31 * andythenorth wonders if it's actually fun to *have* to route vehicles on and off ferries
10:38:44 <andythenorth> it might be something in between
10:38:46 <peter1138> andythenorth, i like playing with 60-70% water ;)
10:38:52 <peter1138> which i believe is higher than high
10:38:53 * andythenorth tops that with 85%
10:39:23 <peter1138> yacd with lots of water is fun
10:39:41 <planetmaker> peter1138: that's not high. That's about the fun ratio :-)
10:39:51 <planetmaker> through in mountanous and it's certainly nice
10:40:30 <peter1138> planetmaker, i mean "high" on the drop down list
10:40:37 <planetmaker> meh... one gimp bug after the other :-P
10:40:56 <peter1138> 39.0600% to be precise
10:41:21 <peter1138> and yeha, mountainous, rough, low variation, 85% water
10:41:41 <andythenorth> let's remove all other map gen options :P
10:46:20 <Terkhen> I usually get bored before connecting that much
10:46:38 <andythenorth> it's quite addictive :P
10:46:54 <andythenorth> and it's not so hard to connect the yacd link graph
10:47:02 <andythenorth> a few big stations, with feeders
10:47:07 <andythenorth> and a small number of large mixed trains
10:47:10 <peter1138> you're quite fond of yacd then?
10:47:33 <andythenorth> it's the game it should always have been :P
10:47:43 <andythenorth> particularly wrt transfers
10:47:45 <peter1138> you should've been playing simutrans then ;)
10:47:56 <andythenorth> that's what my simutrans friend tells me
10:48:00 <andythenorth> but simutrans has no class
10:48:47 <peter1138> simutrans does, indeed, smell
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10:49:11 <planetmaker> I gave it a try one, two times. It didn't catch on
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10:49:51 <peter1138> wonder if tron still hacks on it
10:50:08 <peter1138> simutrans' rail junctions suck, for one thing
10:50:25 <planetmaker> tron worked on simutrans?+
10:50:40 <peter1138> after he left openttd
10:50:52 <peter1138> he improved its performance considerably
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10:58:53 <andythenorth> can a ferry carry mixed vehicle types?
10:58:58 <andythenorth> e.g. RV + train?
10:59:41 <peter1138> depends what you want
11:00:03 <peter1138> makes sense to allow it
11:00:42 <peter1138> i guess some people would like to see 'real' waiting areas, with road vehicles queueing and trains waiting in sidings, heh
11:01:27 * andythenorth meant to say 'support that request'
11:01:41 <andythenorth> put a magic signal on the depot
11:01:50 <andythenorth> make them queue until a carrier vehicle arrives
11:02:26 <andythenorth> might have some...problems
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11:27:36 <andythenorth> ship depots building in the middle of the ocean seems silly
11:27:39 <andythenorth> or do they float?
11:30:08 <planetmaker> those are dry docks, they float
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11:56:52 <peter1138> can't debug desyncs though
11:57:08 <peter1138> maybe i should upload my save :D
11:57:51 <planetmaker> did you start with debug_level desyn=3 ?
11:57:56 <planetmaker> and have still the initial savegame?
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12:20:08 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22473 /trunk/src/ (65 files in 5 dirs): -Codechange: Automatic orders are better called implicit orders as no real order influencing path finding is added
12:21:56 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r22474 /trunk/src/lang/english.txt: -Change: Reflect r22473 also in how it reads in the order list
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13:22:48 <peter1138> down at the bottom of the garden
13:23:20 <peter1138> among the birds and the bees
13:23:34 <peter1138> a little lotta little people
13:23:41 <peter1138> they're called the poddington peas
13:25:46 <peter1138> planetmaker, it crashes with debug_level desync=3
13:26:00 <peter1138> well, on the first tick anyway
13:26:14 <planetmaker> hm, ok... reproducably then, I guess
13:26:24 <Belugas> someone is watching morning cartoons or is babysitting...
13:27:29 <peter1138> hehe, i think i saw an exgf from school on the way in, her last name rhymes with poddington
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13:35:35 <Eddi|zuHause> it's called "pommes de terre"
13:37:31 <Belugas> never saw that show in here
13:37:49 <Belugas> i jsut discovered there are tons of shows i've not seen either...
13:38:18 <Belugas> and some i've seen only in english that are already translated!
13:41:00 <Belugas> like Defying Gravity... lovely show
13:45:40 <Eddi|zuHause> one of the shows whose unsucess was totally undeserved
13:48:22 <ChoHag> Somebody tell me where my multimeter is.
13:48:38 <peter1138> mysterious cities of gold, that was quality television
13:48:53 <peter1138> ChoHag, it's not in my toolbox, because that's my one
13:50:15 <andythenorth> mine is under the stairs
13:50:50 <ChoHag> I thought mine might be but it's only other bits.
13:54:09 <peter1138> bollocks, my mug of tea ran out :S
13:57:25 <Eddi|zuHause> mine is on my desk next to me
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14:38:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "stupidity" ::= "unknowledge" paired with "confidence"
14:41:04 <Belugas> agree with you on the unsucess part, Eddi|zuHause
14:41:40 <Belugas> agree with on as well, peter1138, on mysterious cities :) i have those on DVD< just waiting for my son to be a little older to show him
14:42:19 <Belugas> peter1138, Defying gfravity was a tv show a couple of years ago. Sci-Fi. very well done
14:42:25 <Belugas> but it was cut out after the first season
14:42:32 <Belugas> it was soooo... goooood!
14:44:48 <Belugas> i've got it at home. in french. i still ove watching it :)
15:00:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: "184 might divide nicely by 23, but going from 0 to 23 for 8 times requires more "steps" than going from 0 to 184, after all 24 * 8 > 185." <-- that sentence does not make any sense.
15:01:21 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: good ;)
15:02:12 <peter1138> openttd's build system is totally fucked up for using non-gcc compilers...
15:02:49 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: no idea how to explain it any clearer
15:02:55 <SpComb> peter1138's busy trying to compile on jslinux's tcc?
15:04:01 <Rubidium> peter1138: most likely they fail with yapf in any case
15:04:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i'm sure it makes perfect sense in the right context, but i seem to be stuck thinking in a different pattern than you...
15:05:02 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: how does one download the source onto jslinux?
15:09:55 <peter1138> heh, it's stuck on squirrel atm
15:10:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: imagine the counter as being a integer with 185 values (like a byte has 256 values). As it zero-based it goes from 0 to 184. Now the TS wants that iteration to go from 0 to 23 (so an integer with 24 values).
15:10:34 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: ah, i think you have an obiwan in your thought there
15:10:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: or Taifidis does
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15:11:27 <Rubidium> _age_cargo_skip_counter = (_age_cargo_skip_counter == 0) ? 184 : (_age_cargo_skip_counter - 1);
15:11:44 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, yes. now i get it
15:11:58 <Eddi|zuHause> it counts down from 184 to 0, so 185 values
15:12:34 <Rubidium> now, lets change the 184 to 255, and assume the counter is a byte. Then cnt == 0 ? 255 : cnt - 1 equals cnt = cnt - 1 (with underflowing)
15:13:00 <Rubidium> as such, 184 is one less than the amount of values in the range
15:14:47 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... had an assert triggered by generating a map... must have screwed with tgp.cpp one too many times...
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15:16:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 185 makes more sense, because now it's exactly 2.5 days
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15:23:09 <andythenorth> maybe it's time to declare my epic YACD game done
15:23:15 <andythenorth> ....and start a new one
15:23:44 <andythenorth> 1880-2018, I normally get bored before then
15:24:52 <andythenorth> maybe it's time to start BANDIT
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15:29:53 <peter1138> /usr/include/string.h:43:14: note: candidate function not viable: cannot convert argument of incomplete type 'struct AirportSpec const (*)[]' to 'void const *restrict'
15:29:57 <peter1138> extern void *memcpy (void *__restrict __dest,
15:29:58 <peter1138> that looks delightful :)
15:31:30 <michi_cc> peter1138: The desync debug assert you've got is indeed broken with YACD, as the memcmp is now comparing the head pointer of a std::map (which is of course not constant when recreating the map). I probably have to rewrite that check.
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15:43:23 <Eddi|zuHause> am i oversensitive when i think 3iff's avatar is borderline offensive?
15:43:59 <planetmaker> thank you Eddi|zuHause for the reply to HvS. I deleted mine before hitting 'submit' ;-)
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15:49:24 <Eddi|zuHause> breaking news: "playstation network" hacked.
15:49:37 <Terkhen> I didn't think that avatar meant anything
15:49:43 <Terkhen> wow, for the third time already?
15:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> "Less than 2 days after Sony started bringing it’s PlayStation Network back online reports are coming in that the besieged gaming giant’s platform has been hacked yet again."
15:51:10 <Sacro> someone show them 'apt-get update' ffs
15:51:17 <Eddi|zuHause> " the exploit allows for hackers to change users passwords using only a PSN account email and date of birth, two pieces of user information that were obtained in the original hack."
15:51:47 <Sacro> does this mean my second 20 char alphanumeric + cases + symbols is worthless?
15:52:45 <TWerkhoven> they'd still have to hack your email, wouldn't they?
15:53:36 <peter1138> unless it doesn't actually send an email
15:53:57 <peter1138> there are dumb systems that use, say, dob for verification...
15:54:00 <Eddi|zuHause> TWerkhoven: i understood it more like "type in your email adress here"
15:55:53 <Sacro> password recovery might only use DOB
15:55:57 <Sacro> which isn't secure... ever
15:56:08 <Sacro> Sigh, I'm going to request a new DoB
15:56:10 <Terkhen> this is going to be an example in many books
15:56:13 <Sacro> and get my bank to stop using my current one
15:56:40 <peter1138> yeah, it's stupid that anybody might consider DoB as security information
15:57:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p
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15:59:37 <Terkhen> we had some computers with the pentium bug in my university
16:00:17 <Terkhen> it is fun until you remember those computers were supposed to be free of use for any student who needed them to complete stuff
16:00:47 <Eddi|zuHause> (the problem with the pentium bug wasn't actually that there's a bug, but that they initially dismissed it as "ah well, it'll be triggered once in a million years")
16:01:09 <Terkhen> I don't remember it being very complicated to trigger
16:01:18 <Terkhen> IIRC 4.0 / 4.0 did the trick
16:04:58 <frosch123> [17:57] <Eddi|zuHause> Terkhen: i think in a few years time this might top the pentium bug and the ariane crash in the "don't do this" part of the software engineering lecture :p <- well, but does it also confirm the law of "if the hardware is buggy, create software to work around"?
16:06:01 <frosch123> yeah, always use doubles :p
16:08:04 <Rubidium> nah... extended precision! ;)
16:08:33 <andythenorth> especially use them for financial apps
16:10:48 <frosch123> that's totally fine, we just need to enforce 1€ = 128 bicents
16:14:24 <andythenorth> a newgrf I'm working on
16:14:28 <frosch123> most likely DateOfBirth, but no idea :)
16:15:02 <frosch123> andythenorth: DoB or Bridges?
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17:03:50 <planetmaker> hm, can I create rough terrain in the SE?
17:05:45 <peter1138> need to destroy houses to expand my rail empire^W network
17:07:15 <peter1138> oh well, sorry residents :p
17:08:34 <andythenorth> just destroy the town
17:08:42 <andythenorth> moving freight is better anyway
17:08:57 <Alberth> planetmaker: load a random picture as height map
17:09:24 <planetmaker> nah, I don't mean height variations. I mean rough vs. smooth ground tile
17:09:41 <planetmaker> like 'this tile is rough' and 'this is not'
17:10:08 <Alberth> you can place rocks, but maybe you mean something else
17:11:04 <planetmaker> there's rocks, normal and rough
17:11:05 <peter1138> ah, it's called "rough land" in game ;p
17:12:29 <planetmaker> you see this one tile in the screenshot, Alberth ?
17:14:08 <Alberth> although I am somewhat distracted by all those wind mills :)
17:14:24 <andythenorth> those windmills float
17:14:29 <andythenorth> they need a base
17:14:49 <planetmaker> I learnt that after I implemented them. Nasty artists didn't draw that properly
17:15:41 <frosch123> planetmaker: afaik rough land is planted randomly when bulldozing and/or planting trees
17:15:59 <planetmaker> yes. That's how I got by that one tile in that screenshot
17:17:04 <planetmaker> maybe time to pull out gimp again ;-)
17:33:17 * andythenorth considers various things about FIRS supplies
17:36:05 <andythenorth> seems there would be happy players if more supplies = higher chance of production increase
17:36:08 <andythenorth> which I don't mind
17:38:56 <planetmaker> as a function of the current production level
17:39:12 <planetmaker> basically what V suggested makes sense
17:40:20 <andythenorth> so chance of increase scales by amount of supplies delivered
17:40:34 <andythenorth> but also by current production
17:40:49 * andythenorth doesn't fancy writing the nfo for that :)
17:41:31 <planetmaker> wait for the nml transition ;-)
17:41:43 <andythenorth> I have plenty of fish to fry until then
17:41:45 <andythenorth> it will be interesting to see how to solve "supplies + YACD"
17:42:21 * andythenorth hasn't thought of any solutions yet
17:42:58 <planetmaker> newgrf switch might be the solution
17:43:23 <andythenorth> one option is that YACD ignores them
17:43:41 <andythenorth> but then they'll lose the nice routing behaviour wrt transfers etc
17:44:28 <planetmaker> question is: does it matter if it works like now, isn't that maybe good?
17:44:37 <planetmaker> after all supplies 'just' increase production
17:44:42 <andythenorth> it doesn't matter particularly
17:44:48 <andythenorth> a yacd game with FIRS is fun
17:45:04 <andythenorth> but the supplies are one of the least fun elements
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22475 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:45:41 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:45:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:43 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: portuguese - 6 changes by ABCRic, JayCity
17:46:24 <planetmaker> esp. the middle one
17:47:19 <andythenorth> I would draw some mud and stuff around it
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18:18:16 <andythenorth> why can't rivers be walked backwards from their destination?
18:18:23 <andythenorth> I know we discussed it n times :P
18:19:32 <SmatZ> you mean real-life rivers?
18:21:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it doesn't change anything, the problem is exactly the same, just the sign changed
18:22:40 <SmatZ> are you sure? water will go downwards in the direction of highest negative gradient
18:22:41 <andythenorth> what's the problem defined as in that case?
18:23:09 <SmatZ> but in the other direction, it could come from any direction with non-negative gradient
18:23:19 <SmatZ> (and yes, there can be exceptions ;)
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18:26:57 <andythenorth> interesting river-along-a-cliff :)
18:27:06 <andythenorth> bottom of the screenshot
18:27:39 * andythenorth wishes he could code
18:28:06 <andythenorth> it seems that you'd start a semi-random walk at any coast tile
18:28:18 <andythenorth> the rule is first walk up if any tile is higher than current tile
18:28:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i don't think that will create good rivers
18:28:51 <andythenorth> and if there is >1 possible direction, walk random direction
18:29:10 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: navigable, useful rivers? probably not
18:29:25 <andythenorth> annoying rivers that have to be inconveniently bridged? probably
18:29:38 <andythenorth> but it might still work anyway
18:30:14 <planetmaker> hm, I guess rivers need half-tiles to look nice :-)
18:30:29 <planetmaker> I didn't know that screenshot
18:31:17 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: why don't you think it would create a good river? what do I miss?
18:31:25 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22476 /trunk/src/newgrf.cpp: -Codechange: Deduplicate code for reading sprite layout sprites.
18:31:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the path should not be too "random"
18:32:28 <planetmaker> and that indeed is not too easy
18:32:44 <planetmaker> the tendency to go straight needs to be higher than to bend
18:33:38 <andythenorth> cache the previous move
18:33:44 <andythenorth> give it a higher weighting
18:34:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it should have the tendency to search in a somewhat straight line for the nearest lower point
18:34:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and it doesn't solve the terraforming issue
18:34:52 <Eddi|zuHause> currently, rivers can only be placed on flat land, or "normal" slopes, of which a generated landscape has very few
18:34:54 <Rubidium> possibly trying to stay as far away from the higher bits in the process
18:36:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so there need to be "halftile" rivers that either have only the flat or only the sloped or both halves of a halftile-slope (or steep slope)
18:36:31 <Rubidium> hmm... wrong channel?
18:36:47 <Eddi|zuHause> the link doesn't match the conversation :p
18:37:30 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: actually, only the shore would be needed; the rest can be put there like is done for half-tile foundations
18:38:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: and once halftile rivers exist on the map, people will want to place rail on the other half, without destroying the river :p
18:40:06 <Rubidium> why not? Instead of drawing the foundation draw the edge... but!
18:40:29 <andythenorth> why half-tile rivers?
18:40:32 <Rubidium> they want to have half tile canals as well and then it starts getting difficult I think
18:40:34 <andythenorth> I don't see the need
18:40:38 <andythenorth> no half-tile canals
18:40:45 <andythenorth> do we have half-tile roads?
18:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i need curved roads on steep slopes! [with double-foundation]
18:43:20 <andythenorth> I need a pony :D
18:43:39 * andythenorth thinks *some* rivers are better than perfect rivers
18:43:46 <andythenorth> quite limited rivers would be quite fun
18:44:18 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, the rivers that i have need this, otherwise they crash the game.
18:44:32 <andythenorth> is it a drawing issue, or a spec issue?
18:44:45 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what are these weird pixels over sprite 11?
18:45:54 <planetmaker> I'm quite sure an unintentional left-over of a not complete undo after a colour-sensitive cut and paste
18:46:03 <planetmaker> but then... they're not used ;-)
18:46:19 <planetmaker> it's just all from the same layered source file
18:46:44 <planetmaker> good spot though, I need to check the layer where it is actually used :-)
18:47:22 <planetmaker> s/layer/png files/
18:47:48 <planetmaker> though... might be none. The overlay needs no replacement...
18:47:59 <planetmaker> and I didn't yet use it for OpenGFX itself
18:50:04 <peter1138> herping and derping
18:52:22 <peter1138> ah, half-tile rivers
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18:53:44 <peter1138> no, i can't find it either
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19:01:13 * peter1138 ponders working on vehicles-in-vehicles
19:01:58 <__ln__> peter1138: something like lorries-in-trains or trains-in-ferries?
19:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: as long as you get to the point where the orders read: "train X: attach (up to) Y wagons towards station Z"
19:03:04 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: imagine a train with an engine and no wagons, but wagon-placeholders
19:03:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the wagon-placeholders are "vehicles that load vehicles", and the wagons are loaded into these placeholders
19:03:41 <Eddi|zuHause> this simulates shunting
19:04:00 <peter1138> i think that's a bad way of simulating shunting
19:04:40 <Eddi|zuHause> the wagons will be teleported across the stations, but otherwise? what's so bad about it?
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19:09:07 <Eddi|zuHause> 'A computer error made an official government paper instead of "Stühle rücken" [moving/exchanging chairs] read "Stühle ficken" [fucking chairs]'
19:09:12 <frosch123> hmm i guess when you end up with 10+ parameters to functions, you are doing something wrong :/
19:09:54 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: either combine parameters into structs or split up the function?
19:10:41 <frosch123> well, i split the function up, but there are too many intermediate values to pass between them
19:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> global variables! :p
19:11:17 <peter1138> merge the functions!
19:11:21 <frosch123> yeah, most likely struct, though not every function needs every parameter
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19:11:27 <planetmaker> one big function and goto ;-)
19:11:28 * Eddi|zuHause is highly suspicious of forum threads with chinese/japanese letters
19:12:27 <SmatZ> especially when only latin characters in text are hyperlinks to some shops :)
19:12:27 <Eddi|zuHause> make a function of higher order ;)
19:12:41 <peter1138> bah, constantly desyncing now :S
19:12:44 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: i didn't click on it ;)
19:14:41 <Belugas> mmh... shunting... that would look different for sure
19:15:06 <Eddi|zuHause> it'd be really useful with destinations to get dynamically mixed trains
19:16:30 <peter1138> all those people who want it, but have never attempted it ;)
19:17:02 <Amis> Case: I was planting tree in a city and at a square while planting a base of a house popped up but kept clicking planting and as clicked the house went through the construction stages under 0.5 second and finished. Are these two can be related ANYHOW?
19:17:27 <Belugas> indeed, peter1138 :) Always relying in that dear old friend: someone
19:20:55 <Amis> Okkey, actually the house is still constructing
19:21:14 <Amis> So I guess the sprites somehow slipped a bi
19:26:54 <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: can you reproduce that on any house that is under construction?
19:27:12 <Amis> I can't predict when and where a house will... you know... pop
19:28:09 <Eddi|zuHause> Amis: i mean just take a house that just popped up, and try to build a tree on it
19:28:50 <Amis> I guess I have to plant trees before it pops up
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20:01:40 <DanMacK> Been awaol for the last little while... lol
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20:35:24 <garl> hey anyone know any good ais?
20:36:10 <planetmaker> before I repeat everything: read my last report on AI tests in the forums
20:42:42 <andythenorth> what do you want in a truck set
20:45:08 <Rubidium> andythenorth: totally incorrectly (w.r.t. real world) scaled trucks? ;)
20:45:31 <andythenorth> bigger or smaller
20:45:48 <frosch123> twice as big as heqs?
20:45:58 <planetmaker> andythenorth: what I want are two things: a) a progression of vehicles with time (i.e. some generations sort-of) and b) nice-looking, diverse cargo support
20:46:26 <planetmaker> I'll donate you the psd2png makefile for that purpose ;-)
20:47:05 <andythenorth> planetmaker: progression how?
20:47:15 <planetmaker> I think the default trucks are quite accurately sized
20:47:32 <planetmaker> progression in speed and slightly also carrying capacity
20:47:38 <planetmaker> thus maybe also size. somewhat
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20:48:26 <andythenorth> planetmaker: doesn't eGRVTS entirely cover that? :o
20:48:41 <planetmaker> in many parts, yes
20:50:48 <planetmaker> your style of vehicles is different, though
20:51:02 <planetmaker> if you keep the heqs style - which I'd have to assume
20:51:23 <andythenorth> I'm hoping DanMacK will draw them for me :P
20:51:53 <andythenorth> and maybe someone else will code
20:51:59 <andythenorth> I can just project manage :P
20:52:42 <frosch123> ottd still needs a big manager
20:52:55 <planetmaker> a green leaf frog? ;-)
20:52:57 <frosch123> hmm, or what was the term?
20:54:14 <Eddi|zuHause> "a big project manager"
20:55:46 * Belugas starts sending crates of fat food to Rubidium
20:56:05 <Belugas> we'll get a big manager inno time ^_^
20:56:23 <garl> how u get ais to do somthing///
20:56:42 <andythenorth> will he fit on a boat?
20:56:46 <andythenorth> maybe a ferry even?
20:57:01 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yeah, i think that's the one
20:58:02 <Zuu> garl: Have you downloaded any AIs?
20:58:16 <Zuu> Have you let the game run for a 6-12 months?
20:59:09 <Zuu> If you did try Idle or IdleMore, it is even a feature that they do nothing :-p
21:05:13 <andythenorth> new trucks would be nice for my next yacd game
21:05:49 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: \o/ i totally forgot that guy
21:05:59 <planetmaker> damn you Eddi|zuHause ! I totally forgot that nick name. And I was happy...
21:06:37 <Eddi|zuHause> it's been two years, there should be a new wave of OpenTTD+500 threads :p
21:07:35 <andythenorth> how should I organise
21:07:50 * andythenorth is thinking truck models in a range of sizes
21:08:09 <andythenorth> refittable to all cargos
21:08:29 <andythenorth> rather than 'tanker truck', 'box truck', 'hopper truck' etc
21:08:41 <andythenorth> it should make for a shorter buy menu
21:09:35 <andythenorth> how to do articulated trucks?
21:10:05 <Zuu> Hmm, model series? Eg. think of you having a truck factory and making modular trucks where the load type is a module that you choose.
21:10:30 <Eddi|zuHause> yep, one truck that can refit to every cargo.
21:10:40 <andythenorth> I just mean 'Bob 16t 3 axle truck'
21:10:42 <Eddi|zuHause> it's not much different than ships
21:10:49 <andythenorth> 'Sue 20t 4 axle truck
21:11:10 <Zuu> I was mainly commenting the naming of the generic trucks. Sorry if that was lost. :-)
21:11:12 <Prof_Frink> Big Dave 18 axle behemoth
21:11:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Project Manager Dave :p
21:11:49 <Eddi|zuHause> man... why did you have to remind me!
21:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> call a model "Thor 82" and everybody who knows the in-joke chuckles :p
21:13:29 <andythenorth> what's annoying about current / default truck sets?
21:13:54 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I should call one "Little Thor"
21:14:03 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: lack of colours, lack of variety
21:14:08 <andythenorth> that's an in-joke of an in-joke of an in-joke
21:14:45 <andythenorth> Prof_Frink: I've seen that thing
21:14:51 <andythenorth> they seem to have built the shell already
21:15:10 <andythenorth> I thought it was a publicity mockup, but seems to be the real thing
21:15:56 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: lack of colours?
21:16:04 <andythenorth> you want non-CC?
21:16:50 <Eddi|zuHause> basically nobody ever completed a truck set, and LV4 stinks (sorry George ;))
21:16:51 <Prof_Frink> andythenorth: LVv4 is pointless, gameplay-wise.
21:17:11 * andythenorth only uses eGRVTS
21:17:44 <Prof_Frink> Most of the "newer" trucks are slower and carry less than the older ones.
21:17:44 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't have faith that GermanRV gets finished anytime soon either
21:18:50 <planetmaker> and he won't release it
21:19:20 <planetmaker> in a usuable manner
21:19:31 <Eddi|zuHause> if by "release" you mean "put on bananas"?!
21:21:05 <planetmaker> ach... Leanden bores me
21:21:16 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that'd make it widely available and usuable, yes
21:21:23 <planetmaker> and imho 'official'
21:21:29 <andythenorth> I want to flame him
21:21:35 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: well, i surely tried...
21:22:32 <andythenorth> people, generally, can be fricking stupid
21:22:46 <andythenorth> this I has observed in my short life
21:23:24 * andythenorth has observed andythenorth being stupid
21:24:03 <andythenorth> many parameters double the amount of QA required
21:24:25 <andythenorth> if 2 parameters produce 4 configurations, that's 4 times the QA
21:24:39 <andythenorth> if 3 parameters produce 9 configurations...and so on :P
21:25:08 <andythenorth> and then your code dies because it's buggy, and the complexity of any change in mind boggling
21:25:14 <andythenorth> so no it's not more efficient
21:25:29 <andythenorth> an add-on is *way* more efficient
21:25:44 <andythenorth> because some other bugger has to QA that, not me
21:26:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth: c&p this to the thread ;-)
21:26:29 <planetmaker> it's not a flame. It's a well-deserved lecture then ;-)
21:26:30 * andythenorth is a bad teacher
21:26:47 <andythenorth> I've tried being a teacher, I'm not well suited
21:27:26 <peter1138> bah, RoadStops are very road specific
21:27:54 <andythenorth> it would be more surprising if RoadStops were very rail specific
21:27:58 <planetmaker> there you go, andythenorth ;-)
21:31:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: colours for trucks?
21:31:21 <andythenorth> to return to the topic
21:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 2cc would be a good start
21:32:05 <frosch123> isn't randomly coloured stuff more fun?
21:32:06 <andythenorth> any particular scheme?
21:32:23 <Eddi|zuHause> random colour could be cool, too
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21:32:39 <andythenorth> I'm not likely to do random colour
21:32:51 <leanden> thought id come to IRC to save posting
21:32:51 <andythenorth> all other sets I do are 2cc
21:33:02 <supermop> i usually play as the only company,
21:33:29 <supermop> so it doesnt make sense that equipment of any other color would end up in my world
21:33:43 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's possible to combine 2cc and random
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21:34:01 <planetmaker> like, opengfx+trains uses 2cc with some containers being random, but most 2cc
21:34:04 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i haven't really used eGRVTS yet, other than the horsies ;)
21:34:22 <leanden> if i wanted to discuss a FIRS addon with you
21:34:30 <leanden> would it be best here or in a seperate channel?
21:34:50 * Eddi|zuHause tries to hold back :p
21:35:48 <andythenorth> I'm going to sleep in a minute though
21:35:54 <andythenorth> you can discuss it with others
21:35:58 <andythenorth> they'll help you ;)
21:36:02 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: horse-back riders are missing ;-) for express cargo in the years 0 ... 1400 era or so ;-)
21:36:29 <leanden> ill discuss it tomorrow then ;)
21:36:33 <leanden> but im going to do it
21:36:34 <Eddi|zuHause> 1 piece of engineering supplies :p
21:37:24 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
21:37:28 <Eddi|zuHause> i gave up that hope years ago.
21:37:45 <planetmaker> bros - must one say more?
21:38:01 <Eddi|zuHause> i have refrained from actually looking at that
21:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> what i have seen from Leanden otherwise is bad enough
22:18:37 *** ar3k is now known as ar3kaw
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23:54:23 <leanden> Anyone in here know anything about GRFmaker?
23:54:40 <SpComb> the very old tool from TTDPatch times?
23:59:59 <leanden> well im trying to start learning to code
continue to next day ⏵
