IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-15
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07:25:19 <Alberth> did anybody try yacd with conditional orders?
07:29:01 <Alberth> yesterday I had a train driving circles, picking up batteries, and delivering it to two other toy-factories. At some point they brought cargo back to the pickup station, while toy-factories really don't produce batteries :) I had a conditional order to return to the pickup station if the train was empty after the first delivery
07:29:59 <Alberth> did anybody rename stations in yacd? (I did that too)
07:30:07 <devilsadvocate> Alberth: yeah, that happens
07:30:36 <devilsadvocate> Alberth: from what i can tell it somehow ends up routing the things in sort of recursive way
07:30:37 <Alberth> devilsadvocate: in 2.2 the cargo bug is supposed to be fixed
07:31:12 <devilsadvocate> Alberth: iirc you can avoid that by making sure to use no load orders at those stations
07:31:56 <Alberth> ah, didn't change the orders. good point
07:32:10 <Alberth> although yacd should take care of that :)
07:33:55 <Alberth> devilsadvocate: do you have a save game just before such a thing happens? I am sure the yacd author would appreciate it
07:34:10 <devilsadvocate> Alberth: dont think so
07:34:36 <devilsadvocate> i should be able to generate it, though
07:34:59 <devilsadvocate> will take a few days, though. this is somewhat a hectic period
07:36:45 <Alberth> I will experiment a bit further, thanks for the input
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09:39:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22461 /branches/1.1/ (21 files in 4 dirs): (log message trimmed)
09:39:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
09:39:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [NewGRF] Zero register 0x100 as specified before resolving custom station foundations (r22452)
09:39:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Do not 'log' the NewGRFs in the screenshot when in the menu [FS#4610] (r22450)
09:39:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Keep better accounting of the order in which clients joined; client can't
09:39:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: be starved from joining and they get shown the amount of clients waiting in
09:39:09 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: front of them. (r22372, r22370, r22369, r22368, r22367, r22366, r22365, r22364,
09:44:42 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22462 /branches/1.1/src/lang/ (21 files): [1.1] -Backport language changes from trunk
10:00:12 * andythenorth is having a lot of fun with YACD
10:01:17 <Terkhen> andy playing the game... this is new :P
10:04:43 <andythenorth> big transfer yards, large mixed mainline trains, local feeders
10:04:47 <andythenorth> and *lots* of ships :P
10:05:12 <andythenorth> a demand graph / map / list would be really useful
10:06:43 <Zuu> Although, a map with all demand relations plotted tend to be a big mess.
10:06:55 <andythenorth> it needs to be on a per cargo basis
10:07:08 <andythenorth> lines on a map might be enough
10:07:16 <andythenorth> or a reverse lookup on a per industry basis
10:07:34 <Zuu> A pax demand map would still be a mess ^^
10:07:53 <andythenorth> yes. but for freight there's a point where there are enough nodes connected that the cargo starts flowing quite freely around the map
10:08:06 <andythenorth> at that point it would be really handy to know what the unlinked nodes are
10:08:20 <andythenorth> would be useful for similar reason at start of game
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10:08:40 <andythenorth> currently I have to search each industry manually to see who it's trying to supply
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10:09:51 * andythenorth thinks 'demand' could be modelled as supply
10:09:57 <Zuu> But indeed, more tools to help understand the demand would be useful.
10:10:08 <andythenorth> so if industry A supplies 40 crates to industry B, then the demand on that link is 40
10:10:52 <andythenorth> and if industry C supplies 30 crates to industry B, then total demand at B is 70 crates
10:11:07 <Terkhen> extended "link to smallmap" behaviour
10:11:08 <andythenorth> unmet demand might be the most useful
10:11:18 <andythenorth> which could be vertical bars on the minimap
10:11:20 <Terkhen> industry->link to smallmap shows the demand graph for that industry
10:11:40 <Terkhen> sounds complicated to implement, though
10:11:47 <andythenorth> unmet demand would probably swing wildly on a monthly basis
10:12:07 <andythenorth> unrelated, I am starting to really hate the 'production last month' at industries
10:12:32 <andythenorth> it's not something I can adjust with newgrf either
10:12:41 <andythenorth> the latency is too high
10:13:03 <andythenorth> when a vehicle delivers, I have to then wait up to 1 month to see where the processed cargo wanted to go
10:15:24 <andythenorth> it could run whenever the production cb runs
10:15:39 <andythenorth> it's legacy stuff from original TTD, where production cb was a non-thing ;)
10:18:13 <andythenorth> michi_cc: does YACD calculate destinations on monthly production change, or when cargo is processed?
10:18:29 <Zuu> "industry-> link to smallmap" has the adventage that there will not be any crossing demand lines on the graph, which makes the graph easier to read.
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10:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> which could be vertical bars on the minimap <-- bad idea, CargoDist had the capacities in vertical bars, they obstruct the view too much, especially on short links
10:58:25 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I was thinking that it would be (yet another) different view on the minimap
10:58:59 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and i was telling you that bars are a bad idea
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10:59:23 <andythenorth> other suggestions?
10:59:42 <Eddi|zuHause> YACDest uses line width for the link graph already
11:00:12 <Eddi|zuHause> while that is not very specific, it gives a nice overview
11:00:28 <andythenorth> the issue is to represent demand at a point
11:00:42 <andythenorth> I can't think of a way to do that without a graphic that uses a size relation
11:00:53 <Eddi|zuHause> "demand" is the sum of all line thicknesses of incoming lines
11:01:43 <Eddi|zuHause> in the link graph, there is also the size of the squares for the stations
11:02:37 <andythenorth> I'm confused about how to use the link graph to identify unmet demand?
11:02:45 <andythenorth> that seems to be an oxymoron?
11:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i think you misunderstand me
11:09:09 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm all for a "demand graph" similar to the "link graph"
11:09:12 <michi_cc> andythenorth: Demand links and weights are recalculated monthly, because that's also the interval the various production statistics for industries and towns are updated.
11:09:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm just against using bars.
11:26:39 * andythenorth wonders what the performance implication would be of using 30 day moving average for industry production
11:27:01 <andythenorth> or 30 day total rather
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12:30:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22463 /trunk/src/fios_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4615]: Update the fios GUI immediatelly after scanning a new directory, so queued events reach the window when already updated.
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13:02:53 <andythenorth> yacd is insanely addictive :P
13:08:17 <Alberth> for some reason I only find bugs in it :)
13:08:55 <Rubidium> finding bugs before it hits trunk is good ;)
13:09:21 <Alberth> yeah, but it kills the fun :(
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13:10:28 <andythenorth> is anyone else playing YACD + FIRS?
13:11:11 <Alberth> I haven't dared doing that yet
13:14:46 <andythenorth> is there storage that could handle lifetime statistics for vehicles?
13:15:06 <Terkhen> I tried YACD + normal industries and failed
13:18:11 <planetmaker> I've the feeling to start with yacd and industries is MUCH harder than passenger transport
13:19:28 <andythenorth> I was losing money until I started a PAX network
13:19:48 <andythenorth> after 120 years, I'm still not sure freight is net positive :
13:19:55 <andythenorth> some trains are making money, some are losing :P
13:20:36 <Eddi|zuHause> income/cost statistics per cargo type would be nice
13:23:38 * andythenorth isn't sure where town cargos are trying to go
13:23:48 <andythenorth> covering the whole town with goods trucks seems overkill
13:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> they go to a specific tile, if that tile is not covered by a station, the cargo won't get generated for you.
13:25:04 <Eddi|zuHause> this actually makes cargo sinks like shops and fuel stations useful, because they will draw more food than an average town tile
13:41:20 <Alberth> I am leaning towards making many point-to-point connections to transport cargo. that way you get double direction sort of for free.
13:41:31 <Alberth> I am just experimenting with a single cargo though
13:41:38 <andythenorth> do you want my current save? :)
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13:46:54 <Eddi|zuHause> have i suggested yet that secondary industries should cluster near cities?
13:47:31 <planetmaker> that's a newgrf task, Eddi|zuHause ;-) And with FIRS some do
13:47:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i know. i was kinda hinting towards andythenorth ;)
13:47:59 <planetmaker> but as scale is arbitrary, "near a city" is a very chewing-gum like definition
13:48:13 <andythenorth> the ones that need to locate near cities already do ;)
13:48:19 <andythenorth> the rest...its arbitrary
13:48:26 <andythenorth> I have player feedback arguing both ways
13:48:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: parameter ;-)
13:49:13 <Eddi|zuHause> if secondary industries like saw and steel mills are near cities, it makes reusing passenger networks for freight easier
13:49:52 <Eddi|zuHause> better than a lonely steel mill in the mountains
13:50:25 <andythenorth> it also makes building routes a pita
13:50:46 <andythenorth> near cities you often don't have the 10x10 tiles that a busy secondary industry might need for stations
13:52:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you usually have the side that is opposite to the city
13:52:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and with "near" i mean like 20 tiles away
13:53:23 <Eddi|zuHause> and you can have a transfer station further away, and then send a mixed cargo train from the transfer station to the industry, then the industry itself doesn't need that huge of a station
13:54:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (works very well with destinations)
13:54:50 <Terkhen> hmm... secondary industries near towns makes sense
13:55:23 <andythenorth> Alberth: that's similar to the problem where you replace a vehicle and it then won't load
13:55:36 <andythenorth> it's usually fixed by sending the vehicle along the route
13:55:59 <andythenorth> there's another problem-by-design where cargo is removed if a link is broken
13:56:02 <Alberth> Terkhen: no they don't, I cannot make a decent profit bringing goods to the city then :p
13:56:17 <andythenorth> Terkhen: secondary industries only make sense near cities with YACD
13:56:30 <andythenorth> in default game, what Alberth said
13:56:38 <Terkhen> yes, I was thinking on yacd
13:57:08 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: doesn't need a "force near city", just a random chance, like 70% near city, 30% elsewhere
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14:50:23 <Alberth> andythenorth: using non-released fishes, firses, heqses, and chipies, eh? :p
14:51:16 <andythenorth> should be on the bundles server mostly
14:51:18 <planetmaker> one can only play so many games
14:51:27 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22464 /trunk/ (known-bugs.txt src/os/windows/win32.cpp): -Fix [FS#4587]: [Windows] Prevent a crash when launching OpenTTD with -d from a MSYS console. Added a note to known-bugs about this issue.
14:51:36 <planetmaker> so testing ones own stuff in them... seems quite fair :-)
14:51:45 <andythenorth> Yexo: ever coded custom foundations for stations?
14:51:49 <planetmaker> (well, also andy's stuff ;-) )
14:52:11 <Alberth> oh, that's no problem, as long as you don't give the version away to others :)
14:52:50 <planetmaker> well, that'd be calling it a release then
14:53:16 <planetmaker> well, then compatible versions *should* do
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14:54:17 <planetmaker> or if you can provide the newgrf versions (like I did for my last AI test game I reported on)
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14:55:03 <Alberth> heqs does work, fish and firs do not, it seems
14:55:40 <andythenorth> do you want the versions I've got?
14:56:07 <andythenorth> I don't know what differs with FIRS
14:56:09 <planetmaker> did you check the nightly versions from the bundle server?
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15:19:56 <Alberth> andythenorth: what fish do you use? fish-nightly-r626.zip does not work
15:20:03 <andythenorth> I'll pm it to you
15:20:12 <andythenorth> possibly the bundles server hasn't built recent changes
15:20:42 <Alberth> also, it may be useful to make a tar inside the zip
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15:28:50 <Alberth> andythenorth: lots of ships!
15:30:24 <andythenorth> eats my battery :p
15:30:44 <andythenorth> the capacity per tile is much higher :P
15:31:16 <Alberth> also you get industry closer together due to all that water?
15:31:33 <Alberth> the water reminds me of an experiment I want to do :)
15:31:48 <andythenorth> industry close together makes routing mainlines *hard*
15:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> i sometimes wish i could separate the ships to different docks within one station, especially by cargo type
15:32:21 <andythenorth> I wish there could be multiple docks per station
15:32:38 <andythenorth> when there is a station with water on two sides, it's inconvenient :P
15:32:59 <andythenorth> only one side can be used for ships
15:34:11 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: does station joining and a few buoys to split the stream work?
15:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: you can't join docks
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15:35:29 <Eddi|zuHause> docks should be split into "loading bays" like road stations (three per dock)
15:35:39 <Eddi|zuHause> then some multistop-like behaviour could be adapted
15:39:12 <Alberth> that won't survive newgrf ports?
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15:43:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i think it should.
15:44:10 <Eddi|zuHause> even after newgrf-roadstations, multiple road stations combined should work
15:44:36 <Eddi|zuHause> and the default stations staying (mostly) like they are
15:47:59 <Alberth> what is called 'dock' now is a 'loading bay' for you? (then we agree completely, except I was not introducing a new level inside a station, which could be a good idea imho)
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16:03:02 <andythenorth> newgrf ports? what's that then? :P
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16:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: well, yes, in the first step, each dock would have one loading bay at the end, but i also propose to introduce onemore at each side of it, so you have one ship loading at the end, and two on the side of the dock
16:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> if you then do things like enforce only one ship be able to load/unload at each loading bay, you don't even have to introduce only-one-ship-per-tile rules outside of docks
16:16:29 <Yexo> <andythenorth> Yexo: ever coded custom foundations for stations? <- no
16:16:41 <Yexo> all station coding I've ever done is CHIPS
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16:18:16 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you should ask MB :p
16:19:24 <andythenorth> Yexo: I wondered if foundations would be an interesting projet
16:19:45 <Yexo> perhaps, I haven't really looked into that yet
16:19:45 <andythenorth> I'm wondering if we can detect when we're on a coast tile...
16:20:05 <Yexo> but unless you have some very good graphics that enhance the station I think it's a lot of work for very little gain
16:20:17 <Eddi|zuHause> "adjacent to water" maybe
16:20:18 <andythenorth> I was thinking to match the dock
16:20:31 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: coast tile *is* water
16:20:38 <andythenorth> which makes for some interesting problems
16:20:41 <Eddi|zuHause> not when there's a station on it
16:20:56 <andythenorth> interesting point
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16:27:52 <andythenorth> in my happy world multi-docks counts as 'exciting' :)
16:29:31 <andythenorth> Yexo: did you see the issue wrt CHIPS metal cargo?
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16:33:12 <andythenorth> should have been within my skills to fix, but I couldn't see the source of the problem
16:33:54 <Yexo> cargo label is STEL, right?
16:34:16 <andythenorth> 05h in the table
16:38:48 <Yexo> andythenorth: did you forget to change the \b18 to \b19? (first line of the diff)
16:38:52 <Yexo> that would explain why it didn't work
16:39:15 <andythenorth> unless I did that and forgot to save :P
16:39:25 <Yexo> that works, not sure what you did then :p
16:39:54 <andythenorth> pasted this in both template files: #include "simple_empty_tile_1_cargo.tnfo"
16:40:02 <andythenorth> should have changed it appropriately
16:41:02 <andythenorth> playing a busy game is a good incentive to add cargo graphics :)
16:41:16 <andythenorth> although the 'only one cargo shown at once' issue is nagging at me
16:41:25 <andythenorth> there's no easy solution to that :(
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16:43:45 <Yexo> you can't make the same mistake again :)
16:44:17 <Yexo> or in other words: you can now directly copy the lines between both files
16:44:29 <andythenorth> mistake-proofing
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17:18:47 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22465 /trunk/src/fileio.cpp: -Fix [FS#4613]: When determining the executable path failed, the working directory was used instead, circumventing the not-home-directory check.
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17:45:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22466 /trunk/src/lang/ (catalan.txt dutch.txt):
17:45:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 2 changes by arnau
17:45:18 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 2 changes by habell
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18:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22467 /branches/1.1/ (7 files in 4 dirs):
18:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: [1.1] -Backport from trunk:
18:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: When determining the executable path failed, the working directory was used instead, circumventing the not-home-directory check [FS#4613] (r22465)
18:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: [Windows] Prevent a crash when launching OpenTTD with -d from a MSYS console [FS#4587] (r22464)
18:06:16 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: - Fix: Update the saveload window immediatelly after scanning a new directory, so queued events reach the window when already updated [FS#4615] (r22463)
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18:33:52 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22468 /branches/1.1/ (8 files in 6 dirs): [1.1] -Prepare for 1.1.1-RC1
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18:38:06 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: rubidium * r22469 /tags/1.1.1-RC1/ (. src/os/windows/ottdres.rc.in src/rev.cpp.in): -Release: 1.1.1-RC1
18:40:19 <Chris_Booth> can anyone here tell me where I can get a win32/64 compile of r18927
18:40:29 <Chris_Booth> and yes I know it is a very very old nighlty
18:40:56 <Rubidium> from the objs/win32 directory when you build it from source?
18:41:29 <Chris_Booth> Rubidium what if I can't compile here since I have no compiler on my laptop?
18:42:04 <Rubidium> install the compiler? We don't keep the binaries for longer than 2 months
18:42:12 <planetmaker> Chris_Booth: from your other computer where you have it installed?
18:42:47 <Chris_Booth> I would if I was in the same city as my other computer, but I am not and will not be until friday
18:43:07 <Rubidium> what's so special about that nightly?
18:43:09 <Chris_Booth> ooh well it will have to wait then
18:43:42 <Chris_Booth> wanted it to view a saved game in the #openttdcoop archive that bombs out in current nightly and current trunk
18:44:09 <planetmaker> trunk should load them all
18:44:23 <Chris_Booth> doesn't that is why I wanted the old nightly
18:44:29 <Chris_Booth> to see if save was broken
18:44:31 <planetmaker> Unless they were done with a broken nightly. Sometimes that's the case, though rarely
18:45:03 <Chris_Booth> I can give you the crash.dmp file planetmaker
18:45:16 <Chris_Booth> something to do with a broken train
18:45:27 <planetmaker> the savegame number might be more interesting
18:48:23 <Rubidium> smells like broken savegame, even though it might appear to work in r18927
18:49:29 <Chris_Booth> SmatZ no don't be silly
18:49:42 <Chris_Booth> I have all the GRFs from ever PSG
18:49:46 <Chris_Booth> I never delete them
18:51:29 <Rubidium> Chris_Booth: really, then why did you load compatible NewGRFs instead of the right NewGRFs?
18:51:37 <SmatZ> Chris_Booth: how long after start does that crash?
18:51:39 <planetmaker> I've seen that message iirc with borked savegames
18:51:50 <Chris_Booth> as soon as I unpause
18:51:59 <Chris_Booth> you can view map while paused
18:52:29 <Chris_Booth> save seems to think I don't have BK tunnels 0.3b but I do
18:52:56 <Rubidium> not the same version then
18:53:04 <SmatZ> the problem might be in the japanese stations set
18:53:20 <Rubidium> but... disconnecting train + changed station NewGRF => the IDs changes in the NewGRF
18:53:45 <Rubidium> and I guess you have the newgrf_developer thing turned on
18:54:08 <Rubidium> as without it it shouldn't be loaded (AFAIR)
18:54:20 <SmatZ> PSG#174 loads and runs fine for me in trunk
18:54:40 <Chris_Booth> good point Rubidium I do have GRF dev on
19:04:48 <Eddi|zuHause> this was a very textbook case of "ask too specific question that won't solve your problem"
19:05:43 <planetmaker> I've no problem with psg174 either
19:07:07 <Eddi|zuHause> you should save a reference to this discussion when the next person asks why we don't allow changing newgrfs ingame
19:07:34 <Eddi|zuHause> add "for" in above sentence at the appropriate place
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19:09:16 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause, yes it does make sence sometimes
19:09:30 <Chris_Booth> I just forgot to turn it back off
19:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: but you still ignored the big red warning box on loading the game, and you didn't suspect it was the cause of your crash
19:11:05 <Chris_Booth> what big red warning box?
19:54:37 * Rubidium wonders what the gift-cards that Luukland offers entail (and cost)
19:55:18 <Eddi|zuHause> i probably don't want to know...
19:57:28 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: they website (or rather privacy policy) says "We offer gift-cards by which you can personalize a product you order for another person"
19:57:45 <Rubidium> so that makes me wonder what it entails
19:57:49 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds like gibberish....
20:00:25 <Alberth> a little white card where you can write your own personal message :p
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21:21:50 <frosch123> @topic set 1 1.1.0, 1.1.1-RC1
21:21:50 *** DorpsGek changes topic to "1.1.0, 1.1.1-RC1 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
21:23:25 <frosch123> my "1" key seems to hang a bit
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22:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> i just thought "oh great, another useless XML suggestion", and i clearly wasn't disappointed
22:42:53 <Zuu> XML is never going to magically solve your problems. :-)
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22:45:56 <__ln__> you misspelled "always" as "never"
22:49:32 <__ln__> XML will always magically solve problems
22:50:01 <Zuu> Oh. I miss-read "as" as "and" :-p
22:50:43 <Zuu> and though you were refering to some post at the forums.
22:51:33 <__ln__> nah, i don't read the forums, except some links pasted here
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continue to next day ⏵
