IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-05-08
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01:21:02 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2030.%20Nov%201979.sav <-- have serius bottleneck near Wiedhof... any tips?
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07:27:56 <__ln__> happy birthday Coca-Cola®!
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08:09:36 <DorpsGek> __ln__: PeterT was last seen in #openttd 27 weeks, 5 days, 10 hours, 11 minutes, and 56 seconds ago: <PeterT> TrueBrain: who is a PeterT in the making?
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08:42:24 * peter1138 playing yacd 2.0 with no newgrfs :S
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08:48:21 <peter1138> ugh, no wagon speed limits :S
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08:49:40 <peter1138> silly fast passenger engines running freight, in MY va... game?
08:52:22 * andythenorth ponders repainting most of FISH
08:53:44 <planetmaker> moin andythenorth
08:53:49 <planetmaker> still the light issue?
08:54:01 <planetmaker> or rather "issue" ;-)
08:55:01 <andythenorth> and also HEQS needs some repainting
08:55:52 <andythenorth> I made lighting mistakes in HEQS
08:55:57 <andythenorth> but they work in my favour
08:55:57 <planetmaker> It seems to me that the need to repain that is a bit exagerated
08:56:13 <andythenorth> I think HEQS can wait
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08:58:45 <planetmaker> What I'd rather like to see for FISH is a visible change when refit to liquid cargos
08:59:05 <planetmaker> they don't need a crane then, but rather pump equipment or alike
08:59:11 <andythenorth> try refitting to liquid cargos...
08:59:46 <andythenorth> tell me what happens
09:01:18 <andythenorth> planetmaker: how is FIRS -> nml going?
09:01:24 <planetmaker> probably I'm just blind
09:01:38 <andythenorth> planetmaker: or you found a bug...
09:01:49 <planetmaker> not much happened since yesterday
09:04:52 <planetmaker> andythenorth: also Y3xo telling that most of FIRS should be pretty easily converted via a nfo2nml script did not exactly motivate me to actually start writing much code
09:05:19 <andythenorth> you were going to do it manually?
09:05:22 <planetmaker> especially as he said to continue working on exactly that script
09:05:48 <planetmaker> probably stupid idea
09:05:48 <andythenorth> will it work with nfo+defines+includes -> nml+defines+includes ?
09:06:03 <planetmaker> well... in principle yes
09:06:31 <planetmaker> but the includes and defines are specific to the language. Thus they, of course, need a re-write, too
09:07:21 <andythenorth> that's not a small task
09:07:22 <planetmaker> what probably would work is: nfo2nml the whole grf. Then extract the single industries and put them back in their own files again
09:07:42 <planetmaker> the whole string defines: they'll be scrapped
09:07:53 <planetmaker> the whole ID defines: possibly will need to be kept
09:08:06 <planetmaker> but put into it or at least checked
09:08:20 <planetmaker> the action2IDs: no worries
09:08:30 <Yexo> action2IDs are unimportant so they are removed
09:08:31 <planetmaker> parameters: will need check
09:08:38 <Yexo> parameters are kept, but need checking
09:08:48 <planetmaker> that's what I meant with "no worries": don't matter
09:08:51 <Yexo> string defines are removed, used strings are written to nml language files
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09:09:02 <Yexo> although they don't get useful names (that'll need manual work)
09:09:26 <planetmaker> sed -i.bak "s/ablala/usefulname/g" *
09:10:22 <planetmaker> grfid: "\F1%\00\05"; <-- ??
09:10:41 <planetmaker> what's the % doing there?
09:11:09 <Yexo> F1 25 00 05 <- that's the grfid in the nfo code
09:11:27 <Yexo> 0x20 <= c < 0x80 is considered printable and printed as ascii
09:11:35 <Yexo> all other bytes are escaped
09:12:17 <planetmaker> it needs LOTS of sed usages :-)
09:13:33 <Yexo> and currently it's reading the grf, not nfo, so there is no way to keep any comments :(
09:14:23 <planetmaker> that's acceptable, I think and probably what is needed more often (than nfo2nml)
09:14:35 <planetmaker> it all needs manual looking through anyway
09:15:07 <planetmaker> s/item(x/item(FEAT_XXX/g will be nice
09:15:16 <Yexo> one big problem with grf2nml is that the original image files are lost
09:16:08 <Yexo> so I think I'll first implement action7/9 support, than try to read nfo instead of grf files
09:16:23 <Yexo> that part is abstracted, so not that big a change
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10:07:00 <Yexo> andythenorth: does firs use action6?
10:13:22 <planetmaker> Yexo: grep says 'no'
10:13:24 <andythenorth> Yexo: can't remember
10:13:31 <andythenorth> don't see why it would currently
10:13:37 <planetmaker> grep -Ri -E "^ *[0-9]+ \* [0-9]+ +06" firs.nfo | head returns empty
10:13:51 <andythenorth> no action 6 iirc
10:13:55 <andythenorth> action 7 is used
10:14:05 <Yexo> planetmaker: there is often a tab instead of a space after the sprite size
10:14:10 <Yexo> and -1 is also used as size
10:14:25 <Yexo> ^^ nvm that, you use preprocessed source
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10:16:18 <Yexo> and action E to deactivate other grfs?
10:16:56 <planetmaker> and should be forbidden ;-)
10:17:26 <Yexo> older versions of same grf with different grfid
10:17:59 <planetmaker> oh well. would be a use case, indeed. But no, it doesn't
10:18:09 <planetmaker> same grep returns empty there, too ;-)
10:18:17 <Rubidium> planetmaker: what's more evil is that action E disabling another NewGRF can disable "yourself" ;)
10:18:49 <Yexo> planetmaker: and action 10? could you give me the sprite numbers where it's used?
10:28:03 <planetmaker> hm... sometimes there's tabs nevertheless
10:30:44 <andythenorth> me editor is supposed to expand tab to 2 spaces always
10:30:48 <andythenorth> I'm not sure it does though
10:31:24 <michi_cc> YACD 2.1 with tiny bug fixes is out.
10:38:20 <planetmaker> ok, found a working expression. No 0E
10:38:44 <planetmaker> grep -E "^ *[0-9]+ \* [0-9]+[^0-9]+0E" firs.nfo
10:39:24 <planetmaker> Yexo: 2x action 10
10:39:50 <planetmaker> sprites 33 and 113
10:40:03 <Yexo> I'm not going to support those, but those 2 can be easily rewritten
10:46:03 <Yexo> instead of hacking at firs I'm now first trying to decode all regression test grfs correctly
10:46:34 <Yexo> you can work out the already supported features by looking at the first 5 :)
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10:47:09 <planetmaker> hehe. Yeah, seems like a good approach
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10:54:12 <__ln__> is it considered inappropriate to #include <conio.h> in spain?
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11:17:05 * Alberth has no conio.h at all
11:26:33 <peter1138> it's always inappropriate.
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12:25:38 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: Correction to that, the change to src/train_cmd.cpp is not identical to what I gave you previously.
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14:58:35 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... something is not right with this catenary: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%2013.%20Apr%201981.png
15:09:07 <frosch123> what happens if you raise the land under the crossing
15:09:13 <frosch123> (to remove the foundation)
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15:45:32 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that solves it
15:47:45 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: i still seem to have a small number of people who don't want to get off the train. e.g. here in train 92: www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%207.%20Nov%201981.sav (i just added the airport to the schedule)
15:49:28 <ccfreak2k> Who are you to tell those people what they can and can't do!
15:50:15 <planetmaker> the vehicle owner, presumably
15:59:26 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22436 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r18969): Apply railtype property 12 (station graphics) also to station groundsprites from action 1.
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16:19:53 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: request yacd 2.2, and you can lower the corner again
16:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: i'm on 1.x
16:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but now there's a house on it :p
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16:23:14 <frosch123> well, it also worked the last 6 years
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16:27:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22437 /trunk/src/elrail.cpp: -Fix: Catenary was drawn incorrectly next to level crossings with foundations. (same as r3935, but for level crossings)
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16:29:27 <planetmaker> someone really dug deep to find a revision there :-)
16:35:55 <frosch123> yeah, but when i reached the el-rail branch i gave up the find a revision to blame :p
16:36:14 <andythenorth> how many ship types is too many?
16:36:38 <planetmaker> well... maybe less ;-)
16:36:44 <andythenorth> let me try it another way
16:36:51 <andythenorth> which is more likely:
16:37:02 <andythenorth> - the limit is set by I get bored drawing ship types
16:37:13 <andythenorth> - the limit is set by players have too many ship types in buy menu
16:37:33 <planetmaker> hard to guess :-)
16:37:47 <planetmaker> I'd say though: not more than twice what we have now in FISH
16:37:54 <andythenorth> sounds about right to me too
16:37:54 * frosch123 heard there is a balrog at r0
16:38:15 <planetmaker> it. shall. not. pass!
16:38:22 * andythenorth has started repainting existing FISH and it is boring but morally correct :P
16:41:31 <Ammler> [18:37] <andythenorth> - the limit is set by I get bored drawing ship types <-- the only limit, imo
16:41:39 <Ammler> you can always add filter
16:41:50 <planetmaker> there's afaik 64k sprites per grf ;-)
16:42:12 <Ammler> hmm, can't he split to multiple grfs then?
16:42:18 <Fuco> any idea why 1.1.0 keeps telling me "Unable to start server" when I host multiplayer game?
16:42:30 <Fuco> how can I get some more info? :P
16:42:34 <planetmaker> nope, crystal ball is broken
16:42:41 <glx> port already in use maybe
16:42:47 <Fuco> I start the game, go to multiplayer, do new game
16:43:07 <ndh> where is the bug tracker?
16:43:21 <Ammler> guess it? (start with topic)
16:43:33 <Fuco> glx seems like you're right
16:43:34 <ndh> why does it say "patches & bug-reports: bugs" in the topic?
16:44:04 <Ammler> because that is the domain for the bugs?
16:44:34 <ndh> that's what the * means...
16:45:05 <Fuco> well, how can I set the port? :D
16:45:42 <ndh> is it a bug that prospect farm sometimes (20% i'd say) eats my money but doesnt create a farm?
16:46:13 <planetmaker> exploration is 'search'. A search is not necessarily successful
16:46:21 <planetmaker> It's realistic, you know
16:46:27 <planetmaker> people keep asking for it ;-)
16:46:43 <glx> you can still revert to old behaviour
16:47:06 <planetmaker> (yes, I like to say that when people ask 'bug' but it can be explained as 'realistic' ;-) )
16:47:47 <ndh> people keep saying "please make prospect less successful?"
16:48:08 <planetmaker> no. But there's a large number who argue "I want XY because it's realistic"
16:48:40 <planetmaker> and then they wonder when they suddenly find a realistic thing which they don't like ;-)
16:49:04 <planetmaker> moral of story: realism is overrated. Fun is the better measure
16:49:55 <ndh> if prospect has a 20% chance to fail i'd rather have the price increased to 1/0.8
16:50:19 <planetmaker> well. Just use 'fund all industries' ;-)
16:50:28 <planetmaker> it costs then 10x, but well, is 100% successful
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16:50:46 <Ammler> is there a quickstart quide for yacd?
16:51:08 <planetmaker> yes. michi's page tells you what you need
16:51:26 <Alberth> Ammler: get the published patch, and apply it to trunk
16:52:23 <Ammler> Alberth: then I need to figure out, which svn rev etc.
16:52:43 <Alberth> r22435, as per part of the patch filename :p
16:52:58 <Ammler> and it does make it MP compatible?
16:55:18 <Fuco> "Could not create listening socket"...
16:55:26 <Fuco> r17k something can host the game just fine :(
16:56:15 <Alberth> ie after you close the listen port, the OS keeps the socket around for some time in case a client arrives later
16:56:35 <Fuco> hm... I changed the port in the config file
16:56:49 <Fuco> from 2238 (which was runnuing my vnc server) to something random
16:59:32 <Alberth> which are reserved ports, that can be used by sys admin programs only
17:01:11 <Fuco> 3979, copied from the old config file
17:02:41 <Ammler> openttd really should test grfcodec version first :-)
17:03:00 <Ammler> there was quite a acient version on that server
17:03:17 <planetmaker> :-) makefile should do that
17:04:05 <Alberth> planetmaker: ./configure should, actually
17:04:25 <Ammler> well, I see you agree :-P
17:04:39 <Ammler> at least with "should" :-)
17:05:13 <Ammler> michi_cc: are you interested in compile warnings?
17:05:18 <planetmaker> like "the world should be a better place"? ;-)
17:05:29 * Alberth was only discussing which job should be done by which part of the build chain :p
17:05:40 <Ammler> /home/ottdc/git/yacd/src/station_gui.cpp: In member function ‘bool StationViewWindow::HandleCargoDestEntryClick(CargoDestEntry&, int)’:
17:05:42 <Ammler> /home/ottdc/git/yacd/src/station_gui.cpp:1491:15: warning: ‘dest_tile’ may be used uninitialized in this function
17:06:49 <Alberth> TileIndex dest_tile = 0; <-- yeah, that looks uninitialized :p
17:17:03 <Ammler> gcc (SUSE Linux) 4.5.0 20100604 [gcc-4_5-branch revision 160292]
17:25:32 <michi_cc> I'm interested, but for that specific warning I fail to see how that can be initialized even more. Even that = 0 is actually superfluous as the switch statements have a case for all enum values.
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17:29:27 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: If these passengers were already at the loading station with 1.1 and weren't recalculated before loading onto the vehicle, that could still be the same bug.
17:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: no, the vehicle was bought after 1.2
17:31:52 <michi_cc> Well, how much after, i.e. recalculation of cargo at stations is only done in chunks and might have not happened yet.
17:32:07 <michi_cc> Hmm, I get a 404 on that savegame link.
17:32:26 <planetmaker> eddi's links always have a superfluous trailing slash
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17:33:44 <planetmaker> __ln__, it's potential energy
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17:41:10 <Alberth> __ln__: a training site in the mountains for ice skaters
17:42:50 <planetmaker> my bet is on a hydro power plant to satisfy peak power demand. Thus potential energy
17:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22438 /trunk/src/lang/ (romanian.txt simplified_chinese.txt):
17:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: simplified_chinese - 1 changes by Gavin
17:45:23 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: romanian - 6 changes by tonny
17:47:37 <Ammler> what else than just enable the dest is recommend for start? (yacd)
17:48:48 <Eddi|zuHause> michi_cc: ah, my mistake, mistyped the date
17:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> www.informatik.uni-halle.de/~krause/Loisachkirchen%20Transport,%207.%20Nov%201982.sav
17:49:29 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: what slash?
17:50:19 <planetmaker> nvm. But it happend to me often (always) when you link to your own webspace that there is one slash too much. Maybe it's just me
17:50:54 <Eddi|zuHause> that must be just you...
17:50:56 <Ammler> when will new releases be published?
17:51:34 <planetmaker> so it's not 'nightly' but 'mornings' ;-)
17:51:46 <Ammler> and with git speak just git fetch and then git checkout <version>, right?
17:51:53 <Eddi|zuHause> that's more "night" than 20:00 ;)
17:52:28 <planetmaker> you might need the hard reset
17:53:04 <michi_cc> I think the CF always makes a new clone/checkout.
17:54:08 <michi_cc> git checkout is fine, but you won't get the same rev as the CF binaries then.
17:54:25 <Ammler> yes, what to do if I want?
17:55:04 <michi_cc> git fetch && git reset --hard origin (will wipe out any local changes though)
17:59:02 <Ammler> hmm, how does that command know, which version I want?
17:59:57 <michi_cc> It gives you the current HEAD of the remote repo origin (which is my "offical" repo in this case)
17:59:59 <Ammler> ah well, I will figure out when I make the update
18:00:46 <Ammler> well, right now HEAD is 2.1, but I need 2.o
18:03:04 <michi_cc> Replace origin with yacd_2.0 (you might have to do a git fetch --tags first, if the clone is older, and you haven't fetched in-between)
18:06:46 <Ammler> michi_cc: with checkout, I would do the same but keep local changes If I have
18:06:52 <Ammler> checkout = update, right?
18:07:15 <Ammler> so reset is a kind of revert?
18:07:48 <michi_cc> checkout tries to preserve uncommited changes (it can fail of course)
18:07:48 <Ammler> (just trying to transfer the svn commands to git :-)
18:08:07 <Ammler> yes, same with svn update
18:08:10 <michi_cc> No, reset is not like revert, as it doesn't create or removes any commits.
18:08:35 <Ammler> well, on svn revert doesn't either, does it?
18:08:36 <michi_cc> reset means to make your current ref (i.e. most of the time the master branch) point to something else.
18:09:20 <michi_cc> The --hard makes it replace the working copy with the new target as well, otherwise you simply keep whatever is currently on your hd.
18:13:02 <michi_cc> Normally, git checkout is totally fine to get a specific revision, the reason I recommend reset --hard here is to make sure the rev detection will always result in the same.
18:13:41 <andythenorth> why is it so often suggested that blending A + B is better than choosing A or B
18:13:48 <andythenorth> A+B often = crap
18:17:45 <Ammler> and openttd will only build new bundles, if there is a new release?
18:18:36 <Ammler> andythenorth: A+B is easier parseable
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18:20:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22439 /trunk/src/blitter/base.cpp: -Fix (r22291, r22426): Drawing lines of length zero failed.
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18:28:43 <Eddi|zuHause> the useful airports come way too late...
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18:39:57 <Alberth> you start the game too early
19:09:47 <michi_cc> Eddi|zuHause: I've no idea at all how that happened, but your train has more cargo loaded than its capacity, which is why some cargo isn't unloaded.
19:11:35 <michi_cc> There are more cargo packets on the train that it's capacity, but the total count doesn't match the actual cargo packets.
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19:20:19 <Eddi|zuHause> unhealthy when the train is electric :p
19:21:43 * peter1138 wonders how he is meant to take 1 pill 4 times a day, on an empty stomach...
19:25:01 <Ammler> a standard game has too many different destinations for cargos
19:26:50 <Ammler> how do I find the destionations for "others"?
19:27:00 <Ammler> is there some hidden detail gui?
19:29:49 <michi_cc> Ammler: Other means randomly chosen from all possible destinations. It's meant as a small reward for very well connected networks (and it's also a catch-all code-wise).
19:33:31 <Ammler> michi_cc: that means, if I connect one "other", it will use that?
19:36:07 <michi_cc> No, it means that 5% (by default, and on average) of all generated cargo packets will get a random accepting destination assigned. It's also a catch-all for otherwise unaccounted traffic, e.g. pax to a company HQ (as there is no HQ object in the code).
19:39:21 <Ammler> somehow, it should not use every possible destination to pick one, it should create a "pool" (maybe per user)
19:40:01 <Ammler> I mean, you need to connect everything to everywhere to get success
19:41:38 <michi_cc> If you define success as the last possible 5% cargo, then yes. You can always change economy.cargodest.random_dest_chance if you don't like that.
19:42:12 <Ammler> well, I meant more to connect the other 2 defined dests
19:42:24 <Ammler> they are for every industry another 2
19:42:55 <Ammler> so you basically could make p2p networks
19:44:14 <michi_cc> That's mostly unavoidable if the amount of secondary industries isn't much lower than the amount of primary industries, as each secondary needs to get supply from somewhere.
19:45:22 <Ammler> yep, that is what I meant, there are so many secondary industries in normal games so you can use a nice one and let the others die
19:45:34 <Ammler> but with yacd you can't chose :-)
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19:45:52 <Ammler> so there should be slightly less sencondaries and maybe another closing
19:46:39 <michi_cc> Nobody's forcing you to deliver to all secondary industries, if an industry closes the incoming links will be moved to other industries.
19:46:58 <Ammler> but that you can't make money
19:47:12 <Ammler> as the game income is based on transport 100% to make money
19:48:14 <Ammler> you need to build much more complex network to transport around 50%
19:48:27 <Ammler> that is quite impossible for start
19:48:48 <michi_cc> Destinations with higher production get a higher share of the cargo form each source. And I don't think YACD has to be easy. Start with pax for easy money.
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19:54:58 <Eddi|zuHause> this is seriously the last time i play without passenger reduction...
19:55:26 <Eddi|zuHause> whenever i create a new link, it is immediately saturated
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20:03:36 <Alberth> michi_cc: try pax in the tropical climate :)
20:23:10 <Pulec> any fans of train simulators?
20:23:38 <V453000> guess that involves "being realistic" :D
20:29:49 <Rubidium> yeah, it's fun to test your software changes on train simulators to see when the change fails ;)
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20:38:45 <V453000> when I get a disconnection from multiplayer game, why does an error message appear every second? That makes it unclosable
20:39:40 <V453000> which makes it 100% annoying
20:40:34 <Rubidium> because that's the easiest way
20:42:08 <V453000> well why does one need to know it in the first place
20:42:35 <V453000> like this I see I cant do anything so I lagged out and I have a message window I cannot close because it reappears
20:43:35 <Rubidium> you can't do much anyhow, after all no commands are executed
20:44:19 <Rubidium> it's just to make obnoxiously clear that the connection is failing, and not someone joining and pausing the game or something
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20:46:07 <V453000> well, I understand that, but why can I not be able to close and kill it
20:46:34 <Rubidium> because to update an error message you have to trigger a new one
20:47:16 <V453000> it is enough to know once that I lost connection
20:47:33 <Rubidium> but you might not have
20:47:47 <Rubidium> could be very flaky internet
20:48:01 <Rubidium> it's kinda like the lag counter of irc
20:49:17 <V453000> that at least doesnt spam me with error messages :)
20:50:21 <Rubidium> well, there's an easy way to prevent them
20:51:03 <V453000> get a better connection or stop playing openttd, I know
20:51:28 <Rubidium> I would've said: stop multiplayer, or start hosting the server
20:51:48 <V453000> that is equally stupid
20:54:21 * Rubidium wonders what's so terribly bad about this when the connection is likely shot anyway
20:54:53 <Rubidium> I could revert it, but then it could take hours before OpenTTD actually notices that it lost connection
20:55:23 <V453000> yes, but when you make some command it detects it
20:55:44 <V453000> so ... if you actually want to do something, you see that you are disconnected ... which is the moment when you need to know it
20:56:29 <Rubidium> it'd rather know it the moment it happens, instead some (long) time later when I'm building something
20:57:05 <Rubidium> but then... I'm most of the time watching the flow of vehicles before making a change
20:57:34 <V453000> it might get suspicious if the vehicles stop moving ;)
20:58:08 <Rubidium> yeah, with all the autopausing on some servers that's not something noticable
20:58:23 <Rubidium> after all, they stop moving all the time
20:58:58 <V453000> well, sure but you get a console message that it is pausing because <thing happening> but only lag doesnt say anything so it is clear :)
20:59:01 <Rubidium> anyhow, if it itches to much... scratch it yourself, or find someone who scratches it for you. Don't expect me to scratch it though ;)
20:59:27 <V453000> it isnt anything big, it just is really annoying
21:06:27 <Alberth> michi_cc: Can it be the case that a train does not unload cargo for some destination after I remove that destination from the set that the train visits?
21:06:57 <Alberth> cargo seems bound to a specific station rather than a destination
21:09:38 <michi_cc> That should not happen with anymore with 1.2/2.x. If it still does, a savegame from before and instructions what you did would be very helpful.
21:33:03 <Alberth> train 1 has 2 routes, directly to the power plant like train 2, or indirectly. While it is loading, change the destination (not sure I unshared the order in that save)
21:33:31 <Alberth> it will only unload the coal loaded for the new destination
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22:11:47 <michi_cc> YACD 2.2 is out, dedicated to Alberth.
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23:24:28 *** Chris_Booth___ is now known as Chris_Booth
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continue to next day ⏵
