IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-20
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10:41:22 <SmatZ> You won 990,784.00 GBP from LUKOIL COMPANY AWARD. Contact Mr Benson Parker for payment details.
10:42:08 <andythenorth> now you can fund Openttd
10:42:12 <andythenorth> what shall we spend the money on?
10:42:28 <andythenorth> (b) bigger servers
10:42:36 <andythenorth> (c) underground railways
10:43:09 <SmatZ> underground railways are doable, but it would change openttd a lot
10:43:28 <Terkhen> servers for 255 companies and 65535 players
10:43:31 <SmatZ> eg. you would need user interface to build them
10:43:49 <SmatZ> also, later you would want to add sloped underground track...
10:43:55 <dihedral> decentralized multiplayer
10:43:59 <andythenorth> an interface to build things you can't see :P
10:44:26 <SmatZ> I remember when I was trying to build something like that in locomotion, the game never did what I wanted
10:44:51 <SmatZ> or when I rotated the view, the track was built somewhere else than it looked like when I was building it...
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10:51:31 <andythenorth> underground is stupid
10:51:36 <andythenorth> might as well just use tunnels for it
10:51:51 <andythenorth> build nodes on the surface, built tunnels to them
10:52:29 <andythenorth> nothing else can be on the node tile
10:52:49 <andythenorth> use the map bits for signalling and crap
10:53:02 <andythenorth> node tile can look like a vent shaft or something
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11:17:53 <peter1138> looks like an old industrial station converted to an out-of-town one
11:18:00 <peter1138> s/one/passenger station/
12:08:58 <Eddi|zuHause> nope, never was industrial. first it was a single turning loop for the tram line from the right, and later they added a tram line from below, so they made it a double-loop
12:10:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess original plans to extend the line towards the top were scrapped in favour of the bus lines
13:01:03 <Belugas> freezing rain pouring down over me
13:05:24 <Markk> I would like that right now.
13:05:52 <planetmaker> hm... around 20°C here right now. T-Shirt weather actually
13:06:00 <planetmaker> and not a single cloud :-)
13:06:47 <Belugas> one of the easiest songs to play EVER, but so cool to play!!
13:11:16 <Markk> Sunny and high humidity too, so it feels like 22-23.
13:14:15 <Belugas> and rain mixed with freezing rain
13:14:22 * Belugas cries for a bit of sun!
13:16:50 <Belugas> Montreal, Quebec, north Pole
13:17:15 <Markk> But isn't Montreal pretty far south for being Canada?
13:19:27 <Belugas> quite. we're just like 45 minutes frm the states. We're lucky, in fact, there are people in the priovince that are receiving snow right now
13:19:48 <peter1138> 24°C in this office
13:20:51 <Markk> I live in Ireland, the most rainy sheitisland, and it's nearly summer here.
13:21:43 <Belugas> say Yeah for Gulf Stream ;)
13:21:55 <Belugas> that's what is eating up the continent
13:22:19 <Belugas> it totally misses us. Instead, we have that stream coming down the arctic circle
13:22:53 <Markk> How is Vancouver by this time of the year?
13:22:54 <Belugas> nope, that freezes ;)
13:23:29 <Belugas> I can't tell. I was doing an install by remote yesterday, the guy was so boring we did not talk about the weater
13:26:18 <Belugas> and I know that Calgary was a bit frisky as well yesterday :)
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13:28:30 <Belugas> so... looks like i should not complain too much :D
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13:51:23 <andythenorth> playing a game causes me to invent lots of tickets
13:51:26 <andythenorth> mostly for me :P
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13:52:26 <ZirconiumX> least they aren't bus tickets
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14:00:54 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: your feedback on FIRS graphics was useful - it inspired me to improve them more...
14:01:13 <andythenorth> does this one blend in in your view?
14:02:06 <ZirconiumX> it's not perfect - but as nothing can be - it's one of the best I've seen
14:02:33 * ZirconiumX thinks andythenorth should do a station set
14:02:38 <Terkhen> it loos quite nice :)
14:03:29 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: it won't be perfect :) while (a) I insist on using my own ground tile (b) I don't add fences (c) I make industries same size as town buildings, instead of compressed in size
14:03:55 <andythenorth> and I'm not simon foster :)
14:04:37 <ZirconiumX> I've seen thenew fishing harbour
14:08:35 <Ammler> [16:03] <andythenorth> and I'm not simon foster <-- you are better
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14:09:08 <Ammler> but you might have used more time per sprite as he
14:09:11 <andythenorth> I have more time than he probably had
14:09:21 <andythenorth> I have been working on it for two years
14:09:28 <andythenorth> I don't know how long TTD production took
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14:19:59 <Belugas> nice looking, andythenorth
14:30:20 <ZirconiumX> andythenorth: there appears to be a 'bulge' in the dairy exhaust pipe
14:30:46 <ZirconiumX> The dairy is a good sprite but the bulge looks 'wrong'
14:30:57 <andythenorth> there is a bulge - it's a collar on the chimney
14:31:22 <andythenorth> you may have a point
14:31:55 <ZirconiumX> could you either recolour it - or remove it
14:32:13 <andythenorth> I don't enjoy criticism, but if it makes for better art...
14:32:22 <ZirconiumX> recolour would be better IMO
14:32:29 <ZirconiumX> but - it's your work
14:32:32 <andythenorth> the bulge is realistic, but maybe doesn't look right. There are other cases of it
14:33:51 <ZirconiumX> and - is there a snowy harbour
14:33:59 <ZirconiumX> or slightly salty?
14:34:16 <andythenorth> ask yourself - how low does the snow line go?
14:34:50 <andythenorth> min height is level 2 for snow
14:35:01 <andythenorth> although you can build fishing harbours in lakes above sea level
14:35:10 <andythenorth> but not likely when using terrain generator
14:35:16 <andythenorth> I would like a snowy version
14:35:19 <ZirconiumX> but maybe the salt deposited on the shipway
14:35:19 <andythenorth> it would look...neat
14:35:33 <planetmaker> well. You *can* set it lower via NewGRF. But you'd have to supply snowy shores as well
14:35:42 <andythenorth> that might be a worthwhile project...
14:35:58 <andythenorth> would look awesome
14:36:11 <dihedral> mini has been ordered :-)
14:36:13 <planetmaker> I *think* you can then not have a variable snow line
14:36:49 <planetmaker> hm... icy river sprites...
14:37:09 <ZirconiumX> the small wooden ships of FISH going through thick ice
14:37:15 <ZirconiumX> is IMO unrealistic
14:37:17 <planetmaker> if height - snowline > 3 then use_frozen_water_sprites
14:37:19 <andythenorth> i would happily draw ice breakers
14:37:27 <andythenorth> my ships are all ice capable :)
14:37:33 <andythenorth> that's why they're so expensive :P
14:37:51 <planetmaker> Actually I think costs should match the costs of standard vehicles.
14:38:10 <andythenorth> I think there should be a cost-parameter ;)
14:38:11 <planetmaker> If people want other costs, they can use base cost mods for that, or parameters :-P
14:38:24 <andythenorth> and for some reason my ship costs are currently all wrong
14:38:28 <ZirconiumX> cost multiplier param?
14:38:30 <planetmaker> andythenorth, yes, but one parameter must always be "matches default"
14:38:39 <andythenorth> I recently reset them right, now they are wrong again in my game
14:38:47 * andythenorth must have changed a difficulty setting somewhere
14:38:49 <planetmaker> and IMHO "best" is to match default by default :-P
14:39:08 <planetmaker> of course they vary by the difficulty setting, sure
14:39:42 <ZirconiumX> and what about salty deposits on the harbour?
14:39:46 <planetmaker> andythenorth, because, if every newgrf has its own defaults, that may be reasonable from one newgrf's perspective. But not from a player who wants to use several newgrfs of the same type
14:39:54 <andythenorth> planetmaker: known issue yes /no ?
14:39:59 <andythenorth> cost parameter...
14:40:11 <planetmaker> uhm, what about it?
14:40:15 <planetmaker> doesn't fish have one?
14:40:33 <planetmaker> it should get one
14:40:35 <andythenorth> I have minimal objection to making the default match default vehicles
14:40:40 <andythenorth> planetmaker: there's a ticket for it :P
14:40:55 <andythenorth> seemed odd, but you must have your fun I suppose :P
14:41:33 * ZirconiumX goes off to do some demonstartion
14:41:35 <planetmaker> must be a pretty old ticket, I recon
14:44:31 <planetmaker> what's your reservation against matching default vehicles?
14:45:13 <andythenorth> it's just a change of attitude
14:45:16 <andythenorth> I can live with it
14:45:37 <andythenorth> people like pikka and mb and zephyris have made grfs that adjust the gameplay according to their vision
14:45:42 <andythenorth> especially wrt costs etc
14:45:48 <planetmaker> Well, previously I also rather matched Pikka's costs / run costs (which is 0 / +2) - but overall, that's probably not the best approach
14:45:54 <andythenorth> matching default costs for ships and rvs is not optimal
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14:46:04 <andythenorth> ships and rvs are crippled in the original game
14:46:10 <andythenorth> which is fine, because it's a train game :P
14:46:21 <andythenorth> I find them very hard to make money with
14:46:27 <andythenorth> it's an assertion, unevidenced
14:46:48 <planetmaker> the AIs contradict at least the RV theory
14:47:02 <planetmaker> some of the most successful ones only use RVs
14:47:03 <andythenorth> although my response has been to make FISH much more expensive than defaults, so my argument may have gaping holes int
14:47:14 <planetmaker> and ships usually make a good profit when I use them
14:47:23 <andythenorth> well I may be plain wrong
14:47:36 <planetmaker> of course it does happen :-)
14:47:39 <andythenorth> and yes, matching defaults is not a bad idea
14:47:48 <andythenorth> it has the benefit of being simple and consisteny
14:47:54 <planetmaker> But default ships with default industries... usually are in for good money. Like oil from rig to refinery
14:48:12 * ZirconiumX has probably ruined a sprite - in order to show something
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14:48:48 <planetmaker> andythenorth, sure enought the grf should always have the option to adjust also itself to match other than default levels, no doubt. I won't and don't want to argue there about that need
14:49:01 <planetmaker> especially as there are so many different cost levels already :S
14:49:07 *** belyugasnotthere is now known as Belugas
14:49:14 <andythenorth> I think we know the winning answer ;)
14:49:16 <planetmaker> which all claim to be "I solve the economy thing"
14:49:33 <andythenorth> I am currently using 1/4 costs for HEQS in my game :P
14:49:37 <andythenorth> and I made the damn thing
14:50:07 <planetmaker> Maybe I should start again trying to convince DJN that default costs should not be insane ;-)
14:50:19 <planetmaker> he has like +3/+2 or so
14:50:34 <planetmaker> it's only usable with giant maps
14:50:49 <planetmaker> the larger the map -> the larger the costs and run costs may be
14:51:24 <andythenorth> I liked your idea of trying to balance against sets automatically
14:51:38 <andythenorth> but it would be troubling to implement
14:51:47 <andythenorth> a better way might be for suggested values
14:51:57 <planetmaker> yes, I haven't forgotten it. And to some degree... it is feasible. Also with a default of 0/0 cost settings
14:51:58 <andythenorth> maybe in the description, or readme
14:52:14 <planetmaker> that could well be done additionally
14:52:37 <planetmaker> and would give some real value to the readme
14:53:20 * andythenorth wishes there was an agreed standard for setting costs
14:53:26 <andythenorth> but there's no way to figure one out
14:53:30 <andythenorth> nor will we all agree
14:53:42 <andythenorth> nor does that make good gameplay
14:53:46 <andythenorth> something like cost / ton
14:54:02 <andythenorth> but the results wouldn't be useful
14:54:56 <planetmaker> you need to figure at least also speed
14:55:05 * ZirconiumX has ruined a sprite
14:55:18 <ZirconiumX> something like that for salty deposits
14:55:53 <andythenorth> grime! slime! salt! sea dogs!
14:55:55 <andythenorth> I'll consider it
14:56:21 <andythenorth> tropic buildings have mildew :)
14:56:27 <andythenorth> maybe there's a case
14:56:33 * ZirconiumX runs andythenorth-ish to english translator
14:56:33 <andythenorth> I'd rather have a frozen sea
14:56:46 <andythenorth> I'm english english
14:56:47 <ZirconiumX> I'll consider it = It's hopeless
14:56:52 <andythenorth> so I don't speak the language
14:57:47 <andythenorth> put it in the FIRS thread, see what others say
15:01:08 <ZirconiumX> for everyone to laugh at me :(
15:02:39 <ZirconiumX> Well - I've *ruined* your sprite - and rushed it beyond any vain hope of it looking good
15:03:12 <andythenorth> I have backups :P
15:05:10 <ZirconiumX> [CHIPS development thread] MAYO, KETCHUP, SALT + VINEGAR
15:05:29 <ZirconiumX> I'm more a WORCESTER SAUCE myself
15:09:46 <ZirconiumX> because I am a feeble drawer
15:10:00 <ZirconiumX> and the salt looks way too bright
15:10:13 <ZirconiumX> and I've drawn it in the wrong place
15:10:19 <SmatZ> I don't see any salt there
15:10:42 <ZirconiumX> look at the original
15:10:48 <ZirconiumX> and then look at mine
15:11:08 <ZirconiumX> you should see that there are white spots
15:12:38 <planetmaker> hm, andythenorth do fishing harbours require water or really sea?
15:12:56 <planetmaker> if it's "only" water, there's indeed a case for snowy harbours: on lakes ;-)
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15:18:39 <andythenorth> planetmaker: that is a point of pain
15:18:44 <andythenorth> as I have no control over that anyway
15:18:55 <andythenorth> (it's that partially fixed location bug from a few months back)
15:19:11 <andythenorth> 'water tile' is not a very specific thing for newgrfs
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15:22:11 <ZirconiumX> To add to the list, let's remind that holding s*** while drawing a line makes it vertical/horizontal/ 45° angled.
15:23:00 <ZirconiumX> he misspelt shift to *AHEM*
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15:35:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth, well, 'water' is not very specific. But IMHO it isn't wrong either to allow harbours on lakes ;-)
15:36:55 <planetmaker> but I do understand the 'need' to get more specific feed-back
15:41:08 <andythenorth> planetmaker: bbl on this ;)
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17:04:19 <andythenorth> can anyone ping 213.133.67.181 and see if packets are lost?
17:04:50 <supermop> i have no idea how to do that
17:05:29 <Mazur> over 40 successful so far.
17:06:05 <andythenorth> Mazur: what's your location (country is close enough)?
17:06:06 <Mazur> 75 packets transmitted, 71 received, 5% packet loss, time 75042ms
17:06:23 <Mazur> rtt min/avg/max/mdev = 23.147/28.131/70.788/6.034 ms
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17:14:56 <Hendikins> I can't help but think I should be using a dedicated server right now. I've got a game that keeps moving between my desktop and laptop.
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17:48:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22354 /trunk/src/lang/ (8 files): (log message trimmed)
17:48:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:48:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by SmatZ
17:48:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:48:20 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
17:48:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
17:48:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: russian - 1 changes by Lone_Wolf
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18:14:38 <andythenorth> how many menu groups in a station set is ideal?
18:16:42 <SmatZ> I think more groups is better
18:16:52 <SmatZ> if the stations are split logically
18:21:16 * Hendikins ponders how hard it would be to have a wait for full load of specific cargo, for when dealing with say, passenger jets.
18:22:06 <__ln__> not realistic; the passengers would complain
18:22:11 <SmatZ> aircraft always wait only for full pax, afaik
18:22:24 <SmatZ> even when set to "full load"
18:24:00 <Hendikins> SmatZ: I've found they'll take off with zero pax and full mail.
18:24:34 <Hendikins> I'd rather have them wait for full passengers irrespective of mail loaded (and whack on a couple of aircraft refitted for mail to soak that cargo up)
18:25:23 <Hendikins> It would also be applicable to mixed trains, etc.
18:25:25 <SmatZ> Hendikins: even when you set it to "full load"? (not "full load any")
18:25:40 <SmatZ> maybe there's a feature request for that somewhere
18:26:08 <Hendikins> SmatZ: Full load waits for mail too.
18:29:33 <Hendikins> Both behaviours are what I would expect (wait for full load of any one cargo or both), but not what I'd be after.
18:32:35 <dihedral> "We will ask for your FTP credentials and automatically transfer the latest stable ocPortal to your server over an encrypted connection." <- LOL
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18:46:49 <Eddi|zuHause> <andythenorth> I don't know how long TTD production took <-- the TTO manual had a section on game development, but i don't have it anymore... i lost it a long time ago
18:47:20 <andythenorth> if I tried I could probably find out
18:47:33 <andythenorth> the guy who fixed my windows used to work at microprose
18:47:50 <andythenorth> such a glamorous life I lead
18:48:43 <supermop> thinking of micropose makes me think of the red micropose logo fading in over the TTO theme
18:49:00 <andythenorth> makes me think of the chipping sodbury mop dance
18:49:01 <supermop> such an awesome song
19:01:37 <__ln__> anyone been following the news about the election in finland?
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19:24:18 <andythenorth> I have YAPF for my ships
19:24:33 <andythenorth> doesn't solve an issue with silly ships though :)
19:24:43 <andythenorth> ship in a closed body of water
19:24:57 <andythenorth> trying to route to a depot in another body of water, land separated
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19:25:09 <andythenorth> there is no valid route to that depot
19:25:17 <andythenorth> but it tries anyway :P
19:34:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i do remember this paragraph in the manual where he talked about "coding an AI that makes sensible routes" :p
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22:11:02 <SmatZ> because two evenings are better than one!
22:13:13 <andythenorth> if I could have two evenings for the price of one, I would be happy
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22:58:24 <pikka> I see the briefcase is still safe, actually. :)
22:58:40 <pikka> but main screen turn on works too.
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23:08:18 <pikka> only 9.5 hours til I can go home D:
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23:19:14 <Lakie> My reply ok pikka? 'tis a little vague on the specifics but should point him in the right direction?
23:19:31 * Belugas supports your pain, pikka
23:19:54 <Lakie> About putting random bits of code together and hoping?
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23:20:28 <Belugas> always pray when adding random bits of code... and compile first!
23:20:41 <Belugas> ...look who is talking :S
23:21:07 <Lakie> To be fair, I've been hoping that those two would start trying to undertand the concepts they are using.
23:21:43 <Lakie> Well, I stick random bits of code in at times, but I always make an effort to understand what its doing...
23:21:54 <Lakie> Otherwise its effectively useless. :)
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23:35:57 * Belugas goes down and starts the TV-wife time :)
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23:50:04 <pikka> having a tv wife must be good :)
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