IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-18
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05:26:09 <Pokka> or doing some 3d for av8
05:26:45 <Pokka> sadly I am sitting in a bus behind the museum and can't do either
05:34:21 <Pokka> only 4 hours til I can go home...
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08:25:54 <Pokka> I'm back! at the museum again D:
08:34:18 * Hendikins decides that since he's got no real trains to play with at work today, he'll play some ottd.
08:35:20 <dihedral> good morning ladies :-)
08:36:45 * Pokka on the way home, at least
08:44:33 <Hendikins> Pokka: I'd rather be doing work than sitting on standby.
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10:09:31 <Pikka> this was a disappointment
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10:16:24 * Hendikins yawns some, ponders whether he gets overly elegant in this game.
10:29:49 <dihedral> sounds like something worth to ponder ^^
10:31:09 <Hendikins> The thing is, elegant gets expensive.
10:33:04 <Pikka> bump the elephant isn't quite as elegant
10:33:09 <Hendikins> So the question is probably more correctly stated as "Am I pissing money up the wall by being overly elegant?"
10:33:42 <Pikka> the elegant bits are usually simpler though, so why would they be more expensive?
10:34:21 <Pikka> or maybe I'm just interpreting "elegant" as "not building junctions three times the size of cities"
10:36:05 <Hendikins> Elegant is stuff that isn't quick and dirty.
10:37:59 <Hendikins> For example, I might run a straight and more level double track corridor and do the associated earthworks, rather than just running a track wherever I can find a space.
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10:55:55 <Hendikins> Balloon loops, runaround roads, etc.
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11:04:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... anyone noticed how germany is (almost) the only european country without a major boost in right-wing parties over the last few years?
11:10:07 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't suppose it's possible to make a vehicle both articulated and dualheaded
11:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant "dualheaded" as "able to put wagons in the middle"
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11:29:35 <Pikka> Eddi|zuHause: no, it is not possible
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11:56:29 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/4481.jpg <-- interesting, electrification without track...
12:05:07 <Hendikins> Line possibly singled?
12:05:20 <Hendikins> After all, you'd lay the track before wiring it.
12:07:48 <Eddi|zuHause> nope, it's a visual illusion... www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/4465.jpg <-- here you see the second track ;)
12:09:52 <Hendikins> Oddly enough, there have been cases of wired roads being singled and the overhead being left up.
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12:59:29 * Belugas is in an awfull mood. spent part of the night in emergency. Son has an ear infection. it did NOT required emergency, but it made mom felt better
12:59:41 <Belugas> and that is a good reason enough to get there ...
13:03:32 <Belugas> hi Wolf01, hi planetmaker :)
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13:16:51 <Belugas> i though a grandma has cut the fiber optic cable ;)
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13:34:06 <yorick> hrrm, PBI is not on bananas?
13:34:58 <planetmaker> possibly not. Bug pikka
13:35:33 <Pikka> PBI was never "finished"
13:36:06 <planetmaker> Well, but it's used often enough that it might warrant distribution ;-) And the 'not finished' feeling definitely does not come up
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13:36:32 <andythenorth> it's a shame the fund industry tool can't show when a position would be valid for construction
13:36:42 <planetmaker> it's not a comprehensive re-make of all industries as FIRS or ECS, but a small but neat modification of the existing ones with some small additions
13:37:09 <planetmaker> which in itself could be a valid goal which is achieved there nicely
13:37:41 <planetmaker> and it'd be one step more to making the coop grfpack obsolete :-P
13:38:09 <andythenorth> is anything ever finished? :P
13:38:21 <planetmaker> Pikka, you could alternatively upload it with a max version set to 1.0 or so. Then only old savegames could trigger a download. But... ^
13:38:39 <andythenorth> PBI may not be finished, but it is 'done'
13:39:04 <Pikka> one day I will finish it!
13:39:13 <planetmaker> that's a different thing :-)
13:39:23 <Pikka> it will be all 19thcenturyised!
13:40:16 <peter1138> it'll be all fields when i were a lad
13:40:45 <peter1138> clearly 32 cargo types and x industry types IS NOT ENOUGH
13:40:59 <Pikka> I'm pretty sure we need 128 cargo types
13:41:24 <planetmaker> and every industry being unique.
13:41:25 <peter1138> over 9000 cargo types
13:41:32 <andythenorth> I'm pretty sure I've invented then binned at least 9000 cargo types
13:41:45 <andythenorth> ah...but they can all be done with (subtypes)
13:41:59 <Pikka> you need to make industries accept/produce more than 3/2 cargos :)
13:42:06 <andythenorth> subtypes are *really* a great idea :\
13:42:20 <andythenorth> Pikka: industries should produce at least 9000 cargos
13:42:46 <Pikka> someone needs to finish newairports :}
13:42:58 <andythenorth> oh was that mentioned?
13:43:10 <Pikka> my cousins are newports
13:43:13 * andythenorth wants to sack the stupid water-industry-airports
13:43:15 <andythenorth> for a better way
13:43:47 <Pikka> yes, we need newports which allow all vehicle types
13:44:02 <Pikka> so we can make gibraltar airport
13:44:20 <andythenorth> new extended action 2 tile layouts :P
13:44:23 <Pikka> so we can make canals as roads
13:45:05 <andythenorth> how many cargos should an industry produce?
13:45:10 <Pikka> av8 2.0, 20th of october, floatplanes with wakes which will look very odd landing on concrete :D
13:45:15 <yorick> we need less complicated graphics format!
13:45:33 <andythenorth> we need more complicated graphics format!
13:45:38 <andythenorth> more spec! more features!
13:45:56 <Terkhen> no, developing newgrfs must take a big toll on the coder's sanity
13:46:06 <andythenorth> there's no evidence of that here
13:46:13 <yorick> andythenorth: more advanced, less complicated
13:46:44 * andythenorth sees no big wins in that
13:46:51 <andythenorth> lot of work for no benefit
13:47:06 <andythenorth> industries should produce 7 cargos?
13:47:21 <Pikka> the old "do what I want you to do without me having to actually work it out in a logical way" programming that so many people need so they can get into coding. :P
13:47:28 <planetmaker> then finally there can be oversea ports
13:47:46 <Terkhen> besides overseas ports, can you give an example of an industry producing 7 separate cargos? :P
13:47:51 <peter1138> de-special-case everything
13:48:26 <planetmaker> Terkhen: chocolate factory: nougat, marzipan, chocolate easter bunnies, chocolate santa clause, chocolate easter eggs, ... ;-)
13:48:39 <yorick> Pikka: or even squirrel based newgrfs :)
13:48:51 <planetmaker> where's that easier, yorick ?
13:48:57 <Terkhen> meh, you are just making too specific cargos
13:49:00 * andythenorth likes the annoying 2-cargo output limit
13:49:11 <planetmaker> :-) @ Terkhen ;-)
13:49:12 <andythenorth> although a cb might be a better way...
13:49:16 <Terkhen> there was a project for squirrel GRFs...
13:49:27 <planetmaker> was it yorick's project?
13:49:28 <Pikka> I think what we need is even more ways to write grfs, so that the knowledge and assistance base for new coders is even more fragmented than it is now
13:49:41 <Terkhen> it might be, I don't remember much :)
13:49:45 <andythenorth> if we make it simple enough....anyone could write a grf
13:49:53 <andythenorth> imagine the unlocking of creativity that would allow
13:50:08 <andythenorth> "because stupid people make the best game designers"
13:50:40 <Pikka> andythenorth: you know what would make a really good newgrf?
13:51:01 <Pikka> all the trains/planes that I, personally, have been on in the last couple of years
13:51:10 <Pikka> and maybe one steam locomotive for completeness
13:51:39 <planetmaker> Pikka, I always assumed we have that: NARS + UKRS2 + av8 ;-)
13:51:53 <andythenorth> you know what would make a better newgrf?
13:52:18 <peter1138> nah, all ottd really needs is a race car grf
13:52:33 <Terkhen> we need a real mars grf
13:52:44 <andythenorth> a proper space climate? :o
13:52:47 <Terkhen> andythenorth: isn't that heqs?
13:53:00 <planetmaker> nah. It needs a Mars GRF. A moon GRF. and rockets as 5th transport type.
13:53:06 <andythenorth> Terkhen I restrained myself :P
13:53:16 <andythenorth> spaceclimate would take fricking ages I reckon
13:53:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth, how so?
13:53:27 <andythenorth> unlikely anyone's got time for that
13:53:33 <Pikka> especially if the creator got bored with it about 60% of the way through
13:53:48 <Pikka> and decided to use waiting for newports as an excuse for putting it off
13:54:30 * planetmaker now does not look into Pikka's direction and sprite drawer
13:54:34 <Pikka> these sure are some transport vehicles you're showing off, andythenorth
13:54:41 <Terkhen> a good excuse, the existing airports would look strange for rockets, spaceships and so on
13:55:23 <Terkhen> "ships don't climb slopes" locks
13:55:41 <andythenorth> 27 cargos for industries?
13:55:51 <andythenorth> but seriously....
13:56:24 <planetmaker> andythenorth, add it to newgrf specs v8 ;-)
13:56:32 <andythenorth> I don't actually mind
13:56:44 <andythenorth> constraints are somewhat good
13:57:12 <andythenorth> I can cheat for acceptance using the tile acceptance
13:57:14 <peter1138> what ottd needs is a scrollbar in the minimap
13:57:22 <planetmaker> Terkhen, how big is your andalusia scenario?
13:57:30 <andythenorth> peter1138: or something similar
13:57:32 <andythenorth> keys or something
13:57:37 <andythenorth> scrolling minimap drives me nuts
13:57:41 <planetmaker> hm... borderline, but ok :-)
13:57:46 <peter1138> not for the minimap itself
13:57:47 <Terkhen> the last version was 2048*1024 :P
13:57:49 <andythenorth> Pikka: what's planned for regearing?
13:57:54 <peter1138> but the huge list of industry types
13:58:01 <Terkhen> 512*256 was too small
13:58:07 <Pikka> putting it in a bucket and setting fire to it, andythenorth
13:58:12 <andythenorth> peter1138 LessIndustries?
13:58:20 <andythenorth> reduce the limit to 32, problem solved
13:58:26 <andythenorth> Pikka currently I have to keep a FIRS slot free for regearing...
13:58:36 <peter1138> i'm getting old so i use a larger-than-normal font size ;p
13:58:45 <Pikka> I'll get rid of it in the next version of NARS2, whenever that may be
13:59:31 <Terkhen> planetmaker: are you planning to try it?
13:59:39 <andythenorth> peter1138: still trying HEQS? Or some other grf with insane amounts of industry types?
14:00:14 * andythenorth should just merge all grfs into one :P
14:00:16 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I just got the idea to upload it to one of the servers as a map. And see what people make of it ;-)
14:00:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: is it version from bananas? or nightly?
14:00:48 <andythenorth> nightly has some stinking problems
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14:01:18 <Terkhen> I did not add much newgrfs to it... it needs the new scenario features to customize it
14:01:34 <Terkhen> which server? I would like to see and maybe play a bit :)
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14:05:32 <Pikka> I think it's well past bedtime
14:05:44 <planetmaker> Terkhen, I know. osie is nice ;-)
14:06:17 <Terkhen> does it also mentions the mess I did while trying opengfx+ landscape? :P
14:06:20 <planetmaker> I haven't yet decided on a server. I'd talk to V453000 about it ;-)
14:06:27 <planetmaker> Terkhen, nope ;-)
14:06:30 <planetmaker> just the current state
14:06:54 <Terkhen> the gamelog is quite long, I tried a lot of combinations and saved after deciding on one
14:07:11 <Terkhen> I have a newgrf-less version too
14:07:22 <planetmaker> those two are fine with me ;-)
14:10:24 <Terkhen> the big mountains are at the east, the western part is quite flat
14:11:02 <V453000> it is all flat, the mountains are so smooth that the hillness doesnt really apply _
14:11:27 <planetmaker> would make for an SML game ;-)
14:11:50 <V453000> it might be realistic, but I would not play it myself
14:12:18 <V453000> pm: either of those still is nicer with hills, particularly chaos ;)
14:14:03 <planetmaker> V453000, we've had very nice games on pretty flat maps, too
14:14:04 <V453000> what I seek in scenarios (and none has it as far as I know), is something special, something the terragen does not give you. For example, I once did a scenario with a town on a super steep hill. The player had to supply the town with supplies that were on the coast, and weight multiplier was high
14:14:24 <planetmaker> V453000, wasteland ;-)
14:14:28 <V453000> but when I have a map and say "okay, terragen could have made something more interesting" ... then ... bah
14:14:37 <planetmaker> but that might be cargodist only. Not sure
14:15:02 <andythenorth> I've made scenarios like 'big river'
14:15:10 <andythenorth> should be obvious what that one is :P
14:15:38 <V453000> for example the first OSQC osai made was totally awesome, because it was something you cannot get from a heightmap or a generator
14:15:51 <V453000> lots of some quests, lots of problems, and so on
14:16:04 <V453000> which is what all other scenarios miss, and which is why I do not play them
14:16:09 <andythenorth> shame there's no way to script things like town growth, industry opening etc
14:16:38 <andythenorth> probably never going to happen, would screw with too much other stuff
14:16:59 <Terkhen> V453000: you might like geogen
14:17:15 <andythenorth> an AI with money cheat would be a bit like a scenario scripting engine...
14:17:24 <V453000> I like terra genesis as it is ... without the variety distribution :)
14:17:49 <andythenorth> someone was going to fix terra genesis?
14:18:00 <Terkhen> geogen has some scripts that generate different types of heightmaps
14:18:14 <Terkhen> islands, archipielagos, "crater" maps and so on
14:18:17 <planetmaker> andythenorth, a scripting of towns or so... is envisionable and IMHO not out-of-question. But it's not a small thing and free for the taking to come up with a scenario script engine
14:21:22 <yorick> Terkhen: I remember seeing something like geogen when I went to delft recently
14:22:21 <andythenorth> NARS needs narrow gauge :o
14:22:30 <planetmaker> V453000, while I completely agree with "the more mountainous and fjord-like a map, the merrier", it should not necessarily mean that we always use such maps. I've had pretty nice PS games on rather flat tropical maps, too
14:22:53 <planetmaker> Would make for a good noob game :-P
14:23:15 <V453000> the size is more of a problem then ... 512x1024 just is too much imo
14:23:24 <planetmaker> it's border-line, yes.
14:23:49 <V453000> even 512x512 is very big nowadays
14:24:01 <planetmaker> well. It'd be something different then ;-)
14:24:25 <V453000> it is not about different, but about a dead game where people just have too much to build
14:24:26 <planetmaker> And yes, I know and agree. And it's for good reasons.
14:25:14 <planetmaker> But a 0.5M tiles map won't be a 'dead' game'. Building ML is quick
14:25:15 * andythenorth has just started a flat tropic map
14:25:18 <andythenorth> with a lot of water
14:25:19 <planetmaker> and you don't need more stations
14:25:28 <Terkhen> I usually play flat because I'm lazy :P
14:25:35 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you miss so much fun :P
14:25:39 <planetmaker> you just can aford less trains, though due to CPU limits
14:25:52 <andythenorth> I have allowed FIRS farms to be totally evil on steep slopes
14:25:53 <V453000> I will think about it ;)
14:26:21 <Terkhen> andythenorth: nice :)
14:26:42 <planetmaker> sweet, andythenorth ! :-)
14:26:54 <planetmaker> Finally I can create a real Norwegian fjord scenario
14:27:07 <andythenorth> they've been like this for a while :)
14:27:15 <andythenorth> most of them can build on steep slopes
14:27:15 <Terkhen> that would be interesting to play :)
14:27:20 <planetmaker> Where farms could only be reached by means of a rope ladder
14:27:27 <andythenorth> it makes building stations tricky
14:27:39 <andythenorth> and because FIRS farms typically need 3 stations...
14:27:53 <planetmaker> :-) just build heliports :-P
14:29:11 <planetmaker> well, with that, there's no need for heliports then.
14:29:50 <Terkhen> but distant stations are boring
14:33:46 <yorick> why is there a src/ai/ai.hpp.sq
14:34:36 <andythenorth> can you build heliports on steep slopes?
14:35:01 <planetmaker> there's virtually nothing which can be built there
14:35:19 <andythenorth> non-drive through rv stops?
14:35:28 <andythenorth> see - it's evil :D
14:35:41 <planetmaker> andythenorth, evil is different ;-)
14:36:00 <planetmaker> evil would be to make sure that the surrounding tiles within r=3 are also steep slopes :-P
14:37:15 <yorick> what is a paused openttd using 3% cpu for?
14:37:59 <yorick> someone would have to profile it
14:38:14 <planetmaker> That sounds like volunteering it
14:38:29 <yorick> that sounds like volunteering someone else :P
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14:39:32 <Terkhen> someone else has the bad habit of ignoring tasks forwarded to him... if he did his job I would not need to code
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14:42:11 <peter1138> it still loops to see if it should be unpaused
14:42:20 <peter1138> it still handles network connections and the like
14:42:59 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Yexo
14:44:21 <yorick> it can use select() and friends to check the network connections
14:44:31 <yorick> and it shouldn't be unpaused without players
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14:47:12 <Terkhen> you can configure the number of users required for unpausing the game IIRC
14:48:02 <yorick> but it's always more than 1
14:48:23 <yorick> or 0, in which case it should always be paused
14:48:41 <yorick> unpause* unless manual pause
14:48:42 <peter1138> yes, you could, but that's not how the dedicated server works
14:49:29 <peter1138> (because it's based on a game engine loop which generally don't idle)
14:49:54 <yorick> ok then, thanks peter1138 and also maybe Terkhen
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14:50:28 <planetmaker> of course you can set the min_active_clients also to exactly one
14:50:52 <peter1138> it's part of the heritage of the dedicated server being "video driver" hack...
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15:05:09 <Belugas> #John, I'm only dancing
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16:17:14 <dihedral> yorick, but you can implement that feature with a bot :-P
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16:27:15 <peter1138> i... dislike that window
16:29:16 <andythenorth> what has it done to offend?
16:30:03 <peter1138> the huge amount of brown
16:30:31 <andythenorth> you have a lot brown relative to map
16:30:41 <andythenorth> the map:brown ratio is all wrong :P
16:32:25 <V453000> andythenorth: do you know that when you make for example the concrete tile with CHIPS, it still shows the electrification, if the rails are electrified?
16:32:45 <andythenorth> it's just some bits I guess
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16:50:16 <planetmaker> that's what she said :-P
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17:15:46 <Belugas> #What a drag it is to get old
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17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22347 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: catalan - 1 changes by arnau
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: croatian - 1 changes by VoyagerOne
17:46:00 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
17:46:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: estonian - 1 changes by notAbot
17:46:02 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
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18:04:14 * ZirconiumX must get on with D*
18:05:07 <ZirconiumX> I'm still in the bizarre situation that everything works except the function returning the path... :S
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18:08:03 <ZirconiumX> else if (getG(s_start) == infinity) { /* path = null; */ return false;
18:08:13 <ZirconiumX> the commented area is 'broken'
18:08:33 <ZirconiumX> I have declared infinity
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18:16:30 <ZirconiumX> If I set path = false; return path;
18:17:39 <Alberth> would be equivalent to return false; wouldn't it?
18:18:23 <ZirconiumX> as a function collects that result - it returns false
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18:19:04 <ZirconiumX> throw("It usually helps if you give a path that *is* valid");
18:20:15 <Alberth> false does not look like a valid path to me :p
18:20:50 <ZirconiumX> hence meaning - there is no path
18:21:10 <ZirconiumX> whch AFAIK is what A* does, does it not?
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18:24:53 <Alberth> depends on the implementation. The algorithm just describes what to do, not how you code results
18:25:23 <ZirconiumX> (openttd implementation)
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18:26:31 <Alberth> you'll have to read the pf code, I don't know that without reading the code too
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19:17:01 <andythenorth> if I delete this giant textile mill layout...
19:17:05 <andythenorth> ...would anyone miss it?
19:17:12 <andythenorth> it's big and silly
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19:22:17 <andythenorth> how do I make money on short routes? :P
19:22:22 <andythenorth> my trams lose money
19:22:26 <andythenorth> my train loses money
19:22:35 <andythenorth> I don't have any other rvs yet
19:22:59 <andythenorth> maybe I adjust tram running costs :)
19:23:37 <supermop> have people start with lower expectations?
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19:26:45 <andythenorth> can I ask a question?
19:27:12 <Prof_Frink> No. Not even that one.
19:27:42 <Alberth> supermop: they just start earlier
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19:29:38 <supermop> other than low running cost, im not sure there is a solution
19:30:03 <andythenorth> but people whine about low running cost :(
19:31:55 <supermop> but without a way to have premium fares of some sort there isnt really a way around that
19:34:52 <Alberth> andythenorth: but those people can run a basecost mod grf, right?
19:35:13 <andythenorth> in HEQS I just adjust the cost parameter :D
19:35:20 <andythenorth> seems like cheating though ;)
19:37:08 <Alberth> my point is mostly that you want a modular system, so people can decide for their own how to play
19:37:20 <Alberth> a cost parameter could also work :)
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20:01:49 <Hendikins> Gnar. Irritating when you put the infrastructure in to support an industry and it goes belly up before you get a load to it.
20:02:43 <andythenorth> I can solve that for you :D
20:03:05 <Hendikins> I used my cashflow to solve it - I just built another one.
20:05:26 <Hendikins> The new one definitely won't go tits up.
20:05:47 <andythenorth> does manual industries grf solve closure problem?
20:05:56 <supermop> hmmm maybe i should actually play some ottd
20:06:33 <andythenorth> it's kind of fun
20:07:09 * andythenorth is playing the game today
20:07:48 <supermop> i havent beeen able to generate a decent map lately
20:08:02 * Hendikins is quite enjoying the game on a 2560x1440 display at the moment.
20:08:11 <supermop> and making a satisfying one by hand is much too hard
20:08:57 <Hendikins> And after 30 game years I finally added my first passenger service. Heh.
20:09:46 * Hendikins had 5 oilfields in fairly close proximity and a dock that would accept passengers (which was for sea -> rail transfer of oil), so whacked a hovercraft on.
20:20:47 <andythenorth> should I add a pottery to FIRS?
20:21:15 <supermop> maaybe as an earlier industry
20:21:39 <supermop> are you thinking of something like a cottage industry, or like wedgewood?
20:24:42 <Belugas> new industry : accepts wood, cotton, feathers and stone
20:25:49 <Belugas> graphycally : sand pit like, with smoke rising, bones laying scatered all around the place
20:25:49 <andythenorth> error: exceed number of input cargos permitted
20:26:05 <andythenorth> also...both outputs go to same place
20:26:13 <andythenorth> so might as well be one cargo :P
20:26:33 * Prof_Frink returns to his TempSet game
20:26:55 <frosch123> pottery is one of the first technologies in civ 1
20:27:08 <frosch123> but nothing depends on it
20:27:27 <andythenorth> not sure what it would add to FIRS
20:27:30 <andythenorth> but it's an idea
20:27:53 <andythenorth> frosch123: anything can be done to help extended tile layouts?
20:28:50 <frosch123> no idea, i won't be around next weekend either :s
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20:29:44 * andythenorth plans much drawing in that case :P
20:30:20 <andythenorth> it's done when it's done :)
20:30:28 <frosch123> wait one more month :)
20:33:06 * andythenorth will have to redraw glass works soon
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21:03:00 <Absurd-Mind> is there something like a mission patch for openttd? (something like "deliver 3000 units of coal per month")
21:06:59 <SmatZ> maybe luukland's server offers something like that
21:08:20 <andythenorth> 'fund' button isn't updated when newgrf is reloaded and result of cb22 changed
21:08:27 <andythenorth> guess it's not marked as dirty
21:08:33 <andythenorth> not a big thing :P
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21:27:29 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/4030.jpg <-- street-running trains literally must go at "walking speed" (guy in front is the "train leader", who secures the line)
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22:08:30 <dihedral> that is ... sweet of you :-D
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continue to next day ⏵
