IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-04-17
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07:52:14 * Mazur feels totally overlooked and goes into hiding in #Openttdcoop
07:55:01 <V453000> come, those bastards arent worthy your attention ;) morning pm nad Terkhen
07:56:04 <planetmaker> some people just can't show affection really well, eh? ;-)
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08:56:56 <Pikka> geblungen mitterenglacht cor blimey
08:57:13 <planetmaker> gute Nacht, Pikka
08:57:24 <Pikka> good evening planetmaker
08:58:57 <planetmaker> and of course good morning yorick and Wolf
08:59:17 <planetmaker> nasty tab completion ;-)
09:01:22 <planetmaker> hm... where do I look: by which means do I implement custom foundations for an object?
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09:03:08 <planetmaker> hm... or not at all?
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09:19:48 <planetmaker> so not. Sad thing :-)
09:22:20 <planetmaker> sounds also quite lengthy, Pikka, if one wants to do that for all possible slopes / foundations
09:23:12 <Pikka> no more lengthy than doing it any other way, I shouldn't think
09:23:35 <planetmaker> if I read it correctly, it should need a separate layout for each slope, right?
09:24:22 <Pikka> a seperate sprite, yes, but you'd need that anyway wouldn't you?
09:24:42 <planetmaker> as you'd need a different foundation for each. And you'd need to do the same thing again, if you want it for a 2nd house / *tile
09:25:25 <planetmaker> lengthy as in: the true object stays the same, only the foundations which the programme usually should know how to draw / select need to be newgrf-decided.
09:25:43 <Pikka> but it's just a straightforward var2 testing var 41
09:26:03 <Pikka> and once you've done it for one tile/object, just copy and paste for the rest :)
09:26:14 <planetmaker> sure it is. but always 16(?) cases
09:26:54 <Pikka> well, that's what you get for wanting custom sprites :P
09:27:08 <Pikka> you could always disable the building from appearing on slopes you couldn't be bothered drawing
09:27:09 <planetmaker> fair enough, I guess
09:27:36 <planetmaker> but it's a needless and tiresome restriction.
09:27:49 <planetmaker> because you either want no slope or all slopes, if you want foundations
09:28:51 <Pikka> I've done some houses before which actually built on the slope rather than using a foundation to be level :) so they obviously were restricted to certain slopes, or used very different graphics for different slopes.
09:29:22 <planetmaker> of course :-) For those kinds of advanced adjustment it makes sense, very much so
09:29:38 <Pikka> if you just want /foundations/, then why use custom ones? wouldn't they look out of place, generally?
09:29:39 <planetmaker> or for these things like george's animals on the meadows
09:30:20 <planetmaker> they might look out-of place. Or those are the sub-terrain windows which need to show there ;-)
09:33:10 <Pikka> it's all academic anyway until someone enables the callback for objects :P
09:33:38 <Pikka> if only we knew some openttd devs
09:33:57 <planetmaker> yeah, they're really really scarce
09:34:11 <Pikka> and I guess they're all too busy working on newgrfairports :D
09:34:57 <planetmaker> but I heart, they also accept patches :P
09:36:39 <planetmaker> a daring one. I know ;-)
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09:41:18 <planetmaker> quak (speaking of which ;-) )
09:41:59 <planetmaker> Pikka: you can already define rotated airports - and give them a different look, if you liked. Just the layout would need to stay
09:42:13 <planetmaker> layout as in meaning of tiles
09:42:23 <xQR> any idea what the admin interface is trying to tell me when it sends me a 0x00 and a 0x02? that's just 2 bytes and the header for every packet would already need 3
09:42:42 <xQR> that happens right after i received an ADMIN_PACKET_SERVER_COMPANY_REMOVE
09:43:35 <planetmaker> good that you know :-) I was always hoping somewhat that you'd make use of that ;-)
09:44:50 <Pikka> I'm waiting til I can make proper airports tbh, just "reskinning" the default layouts isn't much fun
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09:53:01 * Hendikins grumbles about train drivers who believe in "sit down, shut up, hang on"
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09:54:24 <Hendikins> Taking a break from ottd to do my paid job of playing with real trains.
10:03:44 <Pikka> :D sounds like my kind of driving
10:04:36 <Hendikins> It isn't mine when I'm in the 5th position cab trying to do my job!
10:05:20 <Hendikins> Suburban train guard.
10:05:36 <Hendikins> The driver drives, I do all the other stuff (but not revenue or security)
10:08:49 <Hendikins> You've still goy guards in Brisbane too, although I'm in Sydney
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10:17:55 <planetmaker> Pikka: warning for whom? IMHO only Leanden deserves one.
10:18:04 <Pikka> well, I considered warning leanden too :P
10:18:27 <planetmaker> well. The OP didn't flame a _person_
10:19:13 <Pikka> oddly he's been around for ages but only posts every two years
10:20:52 <Pikka> Hendikins: I drive and do all the other stuff including revenue and security, and I don't even have any tracks telling me where to go!
10:21:14 <Hendikins> The tracks don't tell me where to go, the signals do.
10:21:35 <Pikka> the tracks do tell you where to go, the signals just tell you when :P
10:22:04 <Hendikins> Not with a route based signalling system.
10:22:53 <Hendikins> With a route based system the signals are telling me how far ahead the line is clear, and what route[s] will be taken.
10:23:29 <Hendikins> So I'm not looking at the tracks or points, I'm looking at the signals for that information.
10:23:50 <Hendikins> Whereas with a speed based system, that information is provided by methods other than the signalling system.
10:24:59 * Hendikins is qualified in systems of safeworking used in NSW.
10:26:52 <Pikka> I've not been to NSW often, but it's seemed to me that there's a mishmash of signal types used down there
10:27:06 <Hendikins> Actually... there isn't.
10:27:20 <Pikka> whereas up here it's all BR-style 3/4 aspect
10:27:37 <Hendikins> Our signals fall in to three broad categories - single light colour light, double light colour light, shunting signals.
10:28:35 <Hendikins> Double light colour light just allows more aspects to be displayed in higher traffic density areas (primarily the Sydney Metropolitan Area). It is derived from single light colour light.
10:29:35 <Hendikins> How would you determine if a signal was an automatic up there?
10:31:01 * Hendikins idly wonders if zig zags would be usable in ottd, will have to try some time
10:38:23 <LordAro> quick q: with the base road vehicles, is it 'Uhl' or 'UHL' ?
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10:39:46 <Hendikins> Pikka: I wonder how OTTD would run with the equivalent of NSW safeworking in high density areas. Nominally 2 signals between trains, and a low speed indication if it is reduced to 1.
10:42:34 <planetmaker> My guess is: it would not run much different
10:42:38 <Hendikins> With normal signal spacing it could reduce the amount of stop/start somewhat (which is the reason for it being implemented)
10:43:23 <Hendikins> I can't be stuffed learning how to write it and I don't expect anyone else to. More a theory question
10:43:27 <planetmaker> but ^^ might be the result, slightly less stopping and restarting
10:46:53 <Hendikins> The NSW low speed indication is 25km/h where fitted.
10:51:02 <Pikka> a "yellow" aspect has long been on many peoples' wishlist
10:51:33 <planetmaker> there's a meanwhile outdated patch by michi which implements advance reservation
10:51:51 <planetmaker> and another signal type which allows conditional reservation beyond the next signal
10:52:07 <planetmaker> but... it's like 2 years old now and probably won't apply to trunk anymore
10:53:10 <Hendikins> Pikka: This isn't a yellow per se. This is more restrictive than a yellow (at least here, yellow aspects don't involve speed restriction)
10:53:37 <Pikka> but in the OTTD world they would
10:53:55 <Hendikins> At the same time though, I do understand that OTTD is not a signalling system simulation.
10:55:20 <planetmaker> there are some changes which probably could be implemented, but still not easy (nothing with signals and path finders is): changing penalties for moving trains on possible paths and speed restrictions and corresponding penalties when the next signal block is not free.
10:55:40 <planetmaker> which w/could mean some kind of speed limiting signals in a way
10:56:21 <planetmaker> But as small as it sounds here, I have the feeling it's a big project code-wise.
10:56:32 <planetmaker> And prone to many many subtle errors and nasty border-cases
10:58:24 <Hendikins> It is entirely likely that I overthink this because of having some knowledge of safeworking.
11:11:51 * LordAro explores michi-cc's server :)
11:13:24 <Eddi|zuHause> most important imho would be a separate pathfinder penalty for a broken down train
11:18:23 <Hendikins> So that if I'm using multiple tracks with regular crossovers, it will actually get routed around?
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11:27:58 * planetmaker invented a new type of forest. It grows the logged wood piles right away. No nasty intermediat step of needing trees...
11:28:30 * andythenorth needs a new train set
11:29:02 <andythenorth> recommendations?
11:29:51 <andythenorth> I have been bugging Pikka to make SARS
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11:41:33 <planetmaker> what do you need in a train set, andythenorth ?
11:41:56 <andythenorth> FIRS compatibility
11:42:04 <andythenorth> graphics that don't suck
11:48:58 * Hendikins is on a train set at the moment, does that count?
11:57:43 <Pikka> but I'm on an av8 kick at the moment
11:58:07 <Pikka> decided I'm going to add about 15 new planes for the 5th anniversary edition D:
11:59:23 <Pikka> andythenorth, what's SARS again? :D
11:59:31 <Pikka> seth efrican renewal set
12:07:42 <andythenorth> South American ;)
12:08:05 <andythenorth> Pikka: UKRS 2 is definitely Good Enough (tm)
12:27:05 <planetmaker> hm... can I set a specific animation frame?
12:29:08 <Yexo> in the animation callback? yes
12:37:17 <planetmaker> ah, thanks. I missed that callback :-)
12:37:30 <planetmaker> That'll stop the forest to do the breakdance
12:38:13 <Yexo> is just setting the animation speed lower not good enough?
12:38:35 <Yexo> running the animation callback too often can have a measurable impact on speed
12:42:09 <planetmaker> I want the animation to run once and then stop
12:42:37 <planetmaker> setting to non_looping then only advances once. Looping loops always
12:44:05 <Yexo> IIRC you can accomplish that by not setting the "loop" bit in animation info
12:44:16 <Ammler> but then, how do I not miss the animation?
12:44:40 <Yexo> "The high byte must be 0 for non-looping animations and 01 for looping animations."
12:45:39 <planetmaker> yes. well, my goal is: some trigger --> run through all animation frames once, then stop and reset to 0
12:46:10 <planetmaker> alternatively it'd do do: some trigger -> advance one frame and reset, if animation_frame = max_animation_frame
12:47:03 <planetmaker> with looping I get: trigger -> cycle through animation continuously. (That's the definition of looping, I guess ;-) )
12:47:53 <Yexo> use cb 25 as trigger to start animation, and enable cb 26 to stop the animation once it's complete by returning FF
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12:56:41 <Alberth> it looks like a crossing :)
12:58:18 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: but it contradicts all known concepts of crossing design, it's neither functional nor realistic
13:00:13 * Alberth ponders how it does not work
13:00:54 <planetmaker> it's consequently merge before split.
13:01:18 <Alberth> I agree you should probably not use it for heavy traffic, but otherwise?
13:01:57 <Alberth> So add a comment that <insert link here> is equivalent and much better
13:04:53 <Alberth> ie documenting bad solutions seems useful too, to me
13:17:00 <peter1138> low traffic generally suffices with a nice flat pbs crossing :)
13:17:22 <peter1138> of course, irl, junctions are generally at stations anyway
13:17:25 <Eddi|zuHause> that's exactly my thought.
13:19:07 <Hendikins> That junction looks like a problem waiting to happen.
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13:37:17 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: smatz * r22335 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Cleanup (r22308): remove superfluous tabs
13:39:04 <peter1138> oh, that's irritating. gallery3 magically stopped working :S
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14:17:31 * peter1138 tries playing with FIRS
14:17:57 * andythenorth waves in direction of issue tracker ;)
14:19:32 <andythenorth> I did some waves and stuff for the water as well
14:19:39 <andythenorth> maybe I should add some crates to the dock
14:22:27 <Terkhen> hmmm... that's a good idea
14:23:13 <andythenorth> maybe later then :)
14:23:47 <andythenorth> peter1138: if you use FIRS, you might also want CHIPS
14:23:57 <andythenorth> but it's fine, you can add it to a running game ;)
14:24:20 * Hendikins grumble, his train runs Windows...
14:24:33 <andythenorth> Yexo: frosch thought the var 68 extension for towns would be fine
14:24:43 <andythenorth> does it need discussing with TTDP?
14:25:01 <Yexo> just wait until lakie turns up
14:28:20 <andythenorth> FIRS should have been called PEAS or BEANS
14:28:29 <peter1138> is there a flow chart?
14:28:40 <peter1138> i don't know what can go where :p
14:28:40 <andythenorth> there's one in the game...
14:28:59 <andythenorth> it's quite handy
14:29:14 <andythenorth> 'Display Chain' on industry window
14:29:18 <andythenorth> also links to minimap
14:30:02 <andythenorth> if you're using 0.6.x my website is slightly lies :(
14:30:30 <peter1138> is there'a cargo-centric view?
14:30:40 <andythenorth> no but perhaps there should be...
14:30:46 <peter1138> Industry chain for Wood cargo
14:30:52 <peter1138> but it's not easy to get to
14:30:57 <andythenorth> oh yes there is, I forgot
14:30:59 <Terkhen> if you click on a cargo it displays the chain for that cargo
14:31:13 <peter1138> should be able to reach that from other things that display cargos
14:31:42 <Terkhen> the cargo payment graph?
14:32:19 <peter1138> our lack of right-click context menus is limiting :S
14:32:56 <peter1138> maybe the industry chain view should also have a list of industry types/cargo types
14:33:02 <peter1138> so once it's open you can easily explore
14:33:33 <peter1138> and the yellow outlines have gaps :S
14:35:27 <SpComb> rewrite to use standard Win32 GUI components!
14:35:59 <peter1138> right, no coal-fired power station
14:36:05 * SpComb starts the openttd-qt fork
14:36:12 <Terkhen> heh, good luck with that
14:36:22 <peter1138> so does firs have a simple industry chain to start with early on?
14:36:51 <peter1138> other than passengers/mail ;p
14:36:52 <Terkhen> I like to start with steel mills
14:41:43 <andythenorth> peter1138: pax -> towns :P
14:41:47 <andythenorth> iron ore -> steel mill
14:41:57 <andythenorth> other stuff -> other places :D
14:42:06 <andythenorth> most people start with steel chain
14:42:20 <andythenorth> I like starting with farm produce as it's fricking difficult
14:42:29 <andythenorth> if you have FISH, then start with fish
14:42:49 <andythenorth> it's cheap and easy and production is stable so you never need to adjust it for the entire rest of the game
14:43:00 * andythenorth goes out to drink beer
14:44:06 <andythenorth> newairports indeed
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15:01:12 <peter1138> that's quite spammy
15:03:24 <Alberth> nobody was having a conversation anyway :)
15:03:51 <peter1138> pfeh, those new-fangled customed modes
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15:38:38 <Agravain> is there a .deb for ubuntu natty out?
15:39:24 <Agravain> the deb for 10.10 does not install, as the libicu-versions do not match
15:40:00 <Agravain> Terkhen: not yet, the release is later this month
15:40:04 <Terkhen> try the linux generic binaries
15:43:20 <Agravain> Terkhen: thanks, that worked
15:44:11 <Agravain> also, I'm compiling 1.1.0 from source now, are there any known issues with compiling with gcc-4.5?
15:45:09 <Terkhen> only a few warnings when compiling without asserts IIRC
15:46:07 <planetmaker> generally gcc > 3.3(?) should work. With various versions issuing various (bogus or rarely not bogus) warnings
15:46:18 <Agravain> seems to work, compiled ok, started ok, loaded my savegame ok :)
15:46:38 <planetmaker> hopefully you compiled from a svn checkout?
15:46:57 <Agravain> hehe, no, I used the 1.1.0-source download
15:47:21 <planetmaker> you might re-consider to use an svn checkout... might be more fun for multiplayer :-)
15:47:48 <planetmaker> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/tags/1.1.0
15:48:02 <Terkhen> wasn't the version set correctly for the tarballs too?
15:48:23 <Ammler> there should be a .ottdrev in there
15:49:01 <Eddi|zuHause> it won't be able to detect modifications
15:50:04 <Agravain> alright, I'm getting the svn-version. Missing a 'make uninstall' target, is that supposed to work?
15:51:37 <Ammler> you should make a .deb file, if you like features like uninstall
15:51:57 <Ammler> is there no openttd on launchpad?
15:52:17 <Ammler> or how that 3rdparty repo thing is called
15:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> wasn't launchpad this bazaar-repo-thingie?
15:53:25 <Agravain> there is only version 1.0.4 out for natty in the official repositories
15:53:26 <Ammler> afaik ubuntu packages are made there, aren't?
15:54:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea about anything ubuntu-related
15:55:38 <Ammler> me neither, just heard some rumors :-)
15:56:02 <Terkhen> I find it simpler to play from the checkout folder than installing the game
15:57:27 <Ammler> yes, that is why you should use distro packages for such case, imo
15:58:19 <Eddi|zuHause> that's not really a reason to have no uninstall target, though...
15:58:55 <Ammler> so for who will you make that target which is quite hard to implement?
15:59:32 <Eddi|zuHause> "rm -rf $prefix/openttd"?
16:00:17 <Ammler> well, then you should call it "remove" or delete, as you can't know, it is the pakcage you installed
16:01:17 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about whether it's the right files?
16:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> "uninstall" deletes all files that "install" would create
16:01:49 <Ammler> uninstall should only remove things it installed before
16:02:22 <Eddi|zuHause> that's impossible, because you can't track that
16:02:39 <Ammler> yes, that might be the reason, that target doesn't exist?
16:03:07 <Eddi|zuHause> then no other project would have it either...
16:03:40 <Ammler> most other projects which has it did implement it as wrong as you suggested
16:05:32 <Ammler> make install could create a path list which make uninstall uses to remove again
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16:44:03 <peter1138> what does "2,.9" mean?
16:44:38 <peter1138> er, where the train length indicator in the depot view used to be
16:45:50 <Alberth> interesting way to write a decimal fraction :)
16:46:28 <Alberth> it is supposed to be 2.9 (ie almost 3 tiles)
16:51:46 <peter1138> no, it's definitely 2,.9
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16:52:16 <Alberth> I agree, the first 'dot' is 2 pixels high, while the second is only 1
16:52:35 <peter1138> eh, i'm using larger fonts, it's clearly a comma
16:53:00 <peter1138> STR_ERROR_TRAIN_START_NO_CATENARY :This track lacks catenary, so the train can't start
16:53:07 <peter1138> nice bogus error message ;)
16:53:32 <Terkhen> strange, I get 1.,5 too
16:55:19 <DorpsGek> glx: Commit by frosch :: r22305 /trunk/src (depot_gui.cpp lang/english.txt) (2011-04-09 20:27:34 UTC)
16:55:20 <DorpsGek> glx: -Add: One digit for the fractional part of train lengths in the depot view.
16:58:06 <planetmaker> Here it shows 4.,0
17:00:39 <planetmaker> yes. It changes between English and German settings
17:00:49 <Terkhen> maybe the error is on how {DECIMAL} is handled
17:01:16 <Ammler> such things should not be handled with language
17:01:44 <planetmaker> they belong there
17:01:56 <planetmaker> the decimal separator is a language setting
17:02:09 <Ammler> no, it is regio/country setting
17:02:24 <planetmaker> country = language
17:02:42 <peter1138> that isn't the issue
17:02:45 <Terkhen> english and german have their digitsepcur and decimalsep values switched, my guess is that is causing the difference
17:02:50 <Ammler> oh well, you might also think, that German belong to Germany :'-(
17:03:00 <Terkhen> the problem is that it shouldn't be displaying decimalsep and digitsepcur at the same time :)
17:03:17 <planetmaker> Ammler: no. But that's exactly the reason why there's a German and a Swiss keyboard layout. It's a "translation" of sorts
17:03:44 <Ammler> do you speak now about language or about regio settings?
17:04:21 <planetmaker> Ammler: that's why there's de_DE and de_CH
17:04:34 <planetmaker> so it's a language thing ;-)
17:04:44 <Ammler> no those aren't different languages
17:05:38 <Ammler> why is currency not managed by language?
17:06:47 <Terkhen> someone playing a country scenario might want to use its currency but it is unlikely that he wants to use its language too
17:07:08 <Terkhen> although that would be more realistic :P
17:07:23 <planetmaker> Ammler: ##isocode de_DE <-- from language file. So it belongs there
17:08:12 <Ammler> no language for me :'-(
17:08:26 <planetmaker> No one created de_CH ;-)
17:08:46 <planetmaker> though a concept of fallback languages might make sense there...
17:08:48 <glx> there should be a fr_CH too ;)
17:09:51 <Alberth> Ammler would get lost in so many languages for him at the same time :)
17:09:57 <planetmaker> I wonder though how many people would use that ;-)
17:11:20 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought fallback languages were implemented once upon a time?
17:11:48 <Ammler> I guess, just that English is the fallback language
17:12:03 <planetmaker> it is the general one, yes.
17:12:04 <frosch123> what? how does the ,. happen? it was not there last week...
17:13:09 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i meant fallback languages other than english
17:13:31 <Ammler> if so, there would be de_CH :-)
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17:15:05 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: i heard that name before
17:15:15 <Alberth> oh, new zealand capital
17:15:25 <frosch123> yeah, it prints both a thousand and a decimal separator
17:16:19 <planetmaker> Alberth: by my personal definition all towns where I lived are 'famous' :-P
17:16:32 <Eddi|zuHause> how do you get fewer than 88 towns on a 1024^2 map?!?
17:16:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: manual town #
17:17:03 <Alberth> use the grf, although you may get exactly 88 then :)
17:17:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frosch * r22336 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix (r22304): {DECIMAL} printed too many thousand separators.
17:22:22 <glx> oh and I should fix thousand separator for french
17:28:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r22337 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt vehicle_cmd.cpp): -Fix: Overly specific error message
17:29:58 <peter1138> ahh, sporadic commits :p
17:30:02 <frosch123> any sane language uses "{NBSP}" for thousands separation
17:30:19 * frosch123 senses a sed commit comming
17:30:55 <glx> <frosch123> any sane language uses "{NBSP}" for thousands separation <-- indeed, that's what I need to fix
17:31:26 <glx> peter1138: did you compile before commit ?
17:33:14 <peter1138> ai has the right error though :p
17:34:22 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r22338 /trunk/src/ai/api/ai_vehicle.hpp.sq: -Fix (r22337): Compile-before-commit...
17:34:31 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r22339 /trunk/src/lang/french.txt: -Fix: french uses NBSP as digit separator, not dot
17:36:10 <glx> is someone renaming or removing string in all langfiles ?
17:36:39 <planetmaker> they should be re-translated anyway
17:36:44 <planetmaker> so I'd not do anything
17:36:58 <glx> they should at least be removed then
17:37:11 <planetmaker> WT3 does that upon the next commit to that language afaik
17:37:41 <planetmaker> but still... might be better to remove them
17:39:38 <frosch123> testing tb's software?
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22340 /trunk/src/lang/ (5 files):
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: french - 1 changes by glx
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: german - 1 changes by planetmaker
17:45:35 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 1 changes by Tucalipe
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: slovenian - 32 changes by
17:45:36 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by Ledel
17:46:51 <glx> WT fixes only languages with changes
17:47:39 <planetmaker> err, yes. the one brazilian one did change something else... and I only saw the -NO_POWER ;-)
17:48:44 <Eddi|zuHause> we should issue a warning like "there are no vehicles available in this start year"
17:49:45 <frosch123> just make all newgrf code object oriented without any global variables; then we can easily preload and preactivate grfs in the title screen
17:50:16 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: showing this after the start would suffice imho
17:50:50 <glx> would be nice to remove strings before the nightly
17:50:51 <Eddi|zuHause> at least, it would be a first step...
17:56:46 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: peter1138 * r22341 /trunk/src/lang/ (43 files in 2 dirs): -Change: Remove string unused since r22337
17:56:57 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: glx * r22342 /trunk/src/ai/ (8 files in 2 dirs): -Fix (r22338): fix the right place and run the script
17:58:30 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds evil :p
17:59:06 <SmatZ> why did that commit add so many files?
17:59:20 <frosch123> it added properties :)
18:01:09 <frosch123> hmm, then glx's script does something different...
18:02:27 <SmatZ> [new file with mode: 0644]
18:02:38 <frosch123> weird, if i delete all .sq files, it does not recreate ai_controller.hpp.sq
18:02:42 <frosch123> SmatZ: yes, misread that
18:03:27 <glx> squirrel_export.sh does add and propset
18:03:59 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: looks like a good path finder test :)
18:04:22 <peter1138> 4 commits for one tiny change :P
18:04:44 <Eddi|zuHause> Alberth: doesn't look good for anything. especially it doesn't look good. and the signals are the wrong way around...
18:09:16 <Bjarte> is there a way to prevent a player from going bankrupt in multiplayer or give them money?
18:09:40 <SmatZ> Bjarte: you can give them money if you are playing
18:09:45 <SmatZ> server can't give anyone money
18:09:57 <Bjarte> 2nd was what I was going for.. :)
18:12:52 <planetmaker> no money ex machina ;-)
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18:42:39 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22343 /trunk/src/ (30 files in 3 dirs): -Change: Remove pixel limiter for query strings.
18:43:29 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22344 /trunk/src/ (signs_gui.cpp signs_type.h): -Codechange: Remove width constant from the sign list window.
18:43:58 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o SmatZ
18:44:21 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22345 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Change: Remove pixel limiter for text buffers.
18:45:48 <Eddi|zuHause> dbg: [sl] Laden des Spieles fehlgeschlagen
18:45:50 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: terkhen * r22346 /trunk/src/ (misc_gui.cpp textbuf_gui.h): -Cleanup: Textbuf::max_pixels is not required anymore.
18:45:50 <Eddi|zuHause> Interner Fehler: liblzma returned error code
18:46:04 <Eddi|zuHause> this is the title game...
18:48:36 <peter1138> hmm, that was predictable
18:48:45 <peter1138> windows no longer boots because...
18:48:50 <peter1138> the drive it was on has been removed :p
18:50:01 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: is it reproducible? do you have liblzma (openttd configured to support it)? do you have broken title savegame?
18:50:20 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ: it also says it for any recent savegame
18:50:39 <SmatZ> I thought the title game is saved in lzo format
18:50:53 <__ln__> "Internet Fehler" looks like it should be written without a space.
18:51:04 <Yexo> SmatZ: the old one is, the 1.1 one probably not
18:51:11 <Eddi|zuHause> it's the title game competition winner
18:51:37 <SmatZ> I almost never run stable versions, so I forgot about that :)
18:51:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm gonna rebuild this...
18:51:45 <Terkhen> the title game for 1.1 was compressed with lzma highest compression IIRC
18:53:21 <Eddi|zuHause> works after rebuild... weird...
18:53:46 <SmatZ> maybe you linked against old liblzma and you updated it afterwards
18:54:33 <Eddi|zuHause> but i don't remember updating anything lately...
18:55:01 <Eddi|zuHause> anyway: would be nice if the error message stated _which_ error occured...
18:55:36 <Eddi|zuHause> __ln__: "interner Fehler" != "Internetfehler"
18:56:10 <__ln__> oh, i should learn to read
18:56:28 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: shouldn't it be "Internerfehler" then?
18:57:39 <Eddi|zuHause> because "intern" is an adjective
19:19:18 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:19:44 * andythenorth was blocked from oftc for reasons unknown
19:19:56 <SmatZ> andythenorth: using tor irc?
19:20:27 <SmatZ> maybe you could complain at #oftc
19:21:06 <glx> seems the attack is finished
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19:37:41 <Eddi|zuHause> better set +R again...
19:42:37 * Hendikins plays a test game of OTTD, attempts to build a zig zag.
19:46:56 *** fonsinchen has joined #openttd
19:51:03 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
19:51:18 * LordAro was just forced to register :P
19:52:07 <LordAro> been meaning to do it for a while anyway...
19:54:09 * LordAro should now probably try to register nick with ChanServ and others as well
19:55:10 <LordAro> unless of course they are all linked together
19:56:11 <planetmaker> LordAro: it's registered with oftc.net
19:56:20 <planetmaker> so in every channel on this network
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19:58:28 <LordAro> planetmaker: i was talking about other networks, but i never go on them anyway, so it probably doesn't matter too much
19:58:46 <Alberth> so what did you decide?
19:59:29 <LordAro> i thought a dev would be far more knowledgeable than me
19:59:47 <LordAro> and since you've been helping me, i picked you first :P
20:00:10 <Alberth> if I have to tell everything, I may as well write the whole patch myself :p
20:00:36 <LordAro> i just don't want to do the wrong thing, then have to re-write it
20:00:39 <Alberth> what requirements do the text files have?
20:01:04 <Alberth> (assuming a readme.txt file is indeed text :)
20:01:09 <LordAro> requirements? you mean like uf-8?
20:01:24 <Alberth> that sounds like a good requirement to me :)
20:01:48 <LordAro> and should there be a character limit? like 10000 or something?
20:01:55 <andythenorth> LordAro: all code gets re-written ;)
20:02:02 <andythenorth> the destiny of all code is to die
20:02:15 <Alberth> afaik, all the utf-8 routines in openttd use byte or char * or so, so 'string' will be less useful
20:02:40 <LordAro> andythenorth: yeah, but preferably not rewritten before implementation :P
20:02:53 <LordAro> Alberth: so 'char file[10000]' sort of thing?
20:03:06 <Alberth> as for max size, make a 'static const int MAX_README_LENGTH = 10000;' and use that constant
20:03:17 <Alberth> changing it will be easy then
20:03:29 <LordAro> ok, but 10000 is good, yes?
20:04:05 <Alberth> pretty much any number is good while developing the code
20:04:34 <LordAro> openttd's readme is 28k, but i guess a newgrf/ai/whatever isn't going to be that big...
20:04:44 <Alberth> I don't know how long an average readme file is
20:04:59 <Alberth> hmm, s/average/biggest/
20:05:20 <planetmaker> LordAro: many (big) patches which get merged into trunk are re-written at least once ;-)
20:05:37 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 466.666666667
20:05:46 * LordAro goes hunting for readmes on openttdcoop
20:05:53 <planetmaker> don't be afraid to write one version. And then start all over again with the knowledge you gained from the first version.
20:06:00 <Alberth> 500 lines sounds like a useful limit :)
20:06:13 <planetmaker> 640k is enough for everyone :-P
20:06:21 <Alberth> planetmaker: + more than :)
20:06:47 <LordAro> planetmaker:i wouldn't call this a big patch, just a fairly rubbishy coder :L
20:07:25 <Alberth> but he is right, I tend to write a patch 2-3 times before I get it completely right.
20:08:04 * andythenorth stops looking at FIRS milestone 'to do' list
20:09:15 <LordAro> ogfx's readme is only 12k characters, and 312 lines
20:09:22 * LordAro goes with 500 line limit :)
20:09:53 <planetmaker> if OpenGFX is 312 lines... do you know how long they are?
20:09:58 <DorpsGek> planetmaker: 38.4615384615
20:10:18 <andythenorth> are there RV sets besides egrvts?
20:10:29 <planetmaker> given the many empty lines... oh well ;-)
20:10:37 * LordAro googles 'c++ read .txt file line limit' :D
20:10:44 <planetmaker> long vehicles, German RV, many tram sets
20:11:18 <Alberth> LordAro: 500 lines is way too much for development anyway, you need no more than 10 lines or so. That amount is still countable by hand.
20:11:32 <planetmaker> there's a ^ and a free-of-charge car set for the towncar AI
20:12:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: and HEQS :-P
20:12:37 <Alberth> even loading the readme file is not that much interesting, a far bigger problem is displaying such text in a scrollable window
20:12:47 * andythenorth needs some trucks
20:12:59 <planetmaker> long vehicles has... long trucks
20:13:04 <andythenorth> I can always add/remove grfs once I've started the game :)
20:13:08 <planetmaker> egrvts, of course, too
20:13:20 <LordAro> obviously with a line 'limiter'
20:13:50 <planetmaker> at least de-facto the sprites, as many are active in OpenGFX.
20:15:00 <Alberth> LordAro: for ascii it might work, but you'll need to do utf-8 processing too
20:15:15 <Alberth> (although do only ascii first would be my suggestion)
20:16:07 <planetmaker> a Chinese readme might eat way more bytes than it displays characters ;-)
20:16:29 <planetmaker> or any CJK - readme
20:16:49 <Alberth> but they need less characters to write a word :p
20:17:30 <planetmaker> LordAro: dunno. I usually have little use for them. And might not even recognize them, if I found them linked with a native language description
20:17:59 <Alberth> LordAro: pretend that the src/lang/simplified_chinese.txt is a readme file
20:20:44 <planetmaker> when I play(ed) with languages, I found it's sufficient to test a few: English (of course), some East-European like Czech or Polish, Russian, Arabic and Chinese.
20:20:50 <planetmaker> That covers most problematic things
20:21:00 <planetmaker> Maybe add Korean and Japanese for added fun.
20:21:31 <LordAro> i think i'll wait until there are multi language readmes until i worry about that too much
20:22:07 <planetmaker> But that might not work. And not your fault: The used font is decided upon language selection based on the language file
20:22:28 <planetmaker> If you then later have a custom-named station for example in glyphs which are not in the font, you'll have a station named ???????????????
20:22:53 <planetmaker> such you'd then also get with the multi-language readme under those kind of circumstances
20:23:42 <LordAro> well by the time it gets committed, its not my problem anymore :P
20:25:40 <LordAro> summary: i'll think about multi-language support, when i've got english working :)
20:26:28 <planetmaker> no one said you should do differently.
20:26:54 <Alberth> do note that you normally don't get EOF when reading a readme file from a tar
20:28:29 <Alberth> why? tar packs all files together, so the readme has a start and a size somewhere in the middle of the tar
20:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles might need a property "make this vehicle available when vehicle XX is available".
20:29:12 <Yexo> a wrapper class could easily return EOF as soon as you hit that size
20:29:32 <Yexo> although in that case it might be impossible to get to work with the standard library functions
20:30:18 <Alberth> you just have to keep track of how many bytes you have already read
20:32:01 <Terkhen> andythenorth: opengfx+ rvs should work fine, but it is still missing sprites for newgrf cargos
20:32:13 <andythenorth> sprites are over-rated anyway
20:32:32 <Terkhen> I also want nice names for the models, instead of using MKII and so on
20:32:46 <Terkhen> but you should not miss refit support for all cargos
20:37:52 <andythenorth> default tropic foundations suck for stations on coastline
20:43:27 <Alberth> tropic climate sucks for lack of vehicles during the 'electrics' age
20:45:14 <planetmaker> that's what we have newgrf for ;-)
20:50:24 <Terkhen> hmm... would it be complicated to do a tropic + electric option for opengfx+ trains?
20:51:08 <Alberth> the point is that tropic does not have electric, so you need new non-electric trains
20:52:45 * Alberth ponders running steam for a much longer time, as many tropical countries do :)
20:59:09 <Terkhen> it is possible to change the snowline height on a scenario?
21:07:20 <Terkhen> frosch123: thanks, that worked :)
21:08:40 <Terkhen> I wonder why it goes from 16 to 104, though
21:11:39 <Eddi|zuHause> snow line is counted in multiples of 8
21:14:45 <frosch123> there are two settings apparently :s
21:15:36 <Terkhen> I modified game_creation.sno_line
21:15:54 <frosch123> no idea what the other one does :)
21:20:03 <Yexo> most likely they can be merged
21:21:05 <frosch123> likely one is the value at game start, while the other one is the current one, which might be overrridden by newgrfs on every new day
21:21:41 <Yexo> nope, the newgrf values are in an array
21:22:04 <Yexo> there is a wrapper function GetSnowLine() to get the current snow line
21:22:07 <frosch123> but is the array item lookep up every time?
21:25:02 <Yexo> snow_line_height is only used for the gui, snow_line is set to snow_line_height * TILE_HEIGHT in InitializeClearLand()
21:26:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i still have not found a sensible way to extend snow line and land info newgrf variables for more heightlevels...
21:27:13 <Yexo> it cannot be done without extending the newgrf spec
21:27:45 <Eddi|zuHause> well, snow line could be extended from B to W, but land info is some bitstuffing magic
21:28:11 <Yexo> problem with land info is that the height doesn't fit anymore in the allocated bits
21:28:21 <Eddi|zuHause> there are 4 "reserved" bits left, but they wouldn't be continguous with the height info
21:28:58 <Yexo> just return 15 for all height levels over 15 doesn't work, because in that case newgrf are not able to detect relative tile heights anymore
21:29:27 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: most places use 8 bits for the heightlevels, so that is no problem
21:29:27 <Eddi|zuHause> it's fine up to height level 31
21:29:41 <frosch123> there is only one place afaik which uses 5 bits or so,
21:29:49 <frosch123> afaik in newsignals, but who cares about that
21:30:26 <frosch123> remove the 8 multiplier
21:30:38 <Yexo> frosch123: but that breaks existing newgrfs
21:30:44 <frosch123> that way most newgrfs will actually continue to work
21:30:45 <Eddi|zuHause> that isn't clean either
21:30:49 <Yexo> or rather, it needs nfo version 8 (or a misc bit set somewhere)
21:30:59 <frosch123> since most are only interested in the absolute height on the map
21:31:02 <Eddi|zuHause> e.g. FIRS has the calculation "height"-"snow line"+8
21:31:04 <frosch123> e.g. in mountains, or at sea level
21:31:33 <Eddi|zuHause> this would break with the removal of the multiplier, so it needs to be rewritten to "height"-"snow line"+1
21:31:58 <Yexo> frosch123: aren't industry layout location checking callbacks only interested in the relative tile height?
21:32:13 <frosch123> imo, just extent the mapsize variable in the action d patch variables, to also return the number of heightsteps, and the "height difference" between two height levels (8 by default)
21:32:44 <frosch123> Yexo: usually they only check the slope, not the relative heights
21:32:49 <Yexo> still breaks old newgrf, and makes writing new ones a pain
21:32:59 <frosch123> but, if they check the heights, there is no way to not break them
21:33:09 <Yexo> yes, but that's the whole problem
21:33:21 <frosch123> why is that a problem?
21:33:52 <Yexo> breaking newgrfs is a problem
21:34:17 <frosch123> it is not the first time, that newgrfs are not compatible to new features
21:34:53 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: but removing the multiplier also breaks newgrfs without using more heightlevels
21:35:03 <frosch123> just say, these newgrfs do not work with other height levels than 16 steps of height 8, and be done with it :)
21:35:24 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: i mean the multiplier should scale as well
21:35:37 <Eddi|zuHause> now that'd be weird :p
21:35:45 <frosch123> fix it to 0..128 for all maps (i.e. actually limit to 128 height levels instead of 256)
21:35:51 <Yexo> frosch123: a non-constant multiplier will make it very hard to use
21:35:58 <frosch123> and supply the number of heightlevels and the stepsize in some var
21:36:09 <Yexo> I'd say just change the multiplier to 1 and be done with it
21:36:32 <frosch123> Yexo: i still think checking the absolute height is far more common than checking relative heights
21:37:02 <frosch123> and in that case you are indeed breaking every grf even if you do not use more height levels
21:37:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i lean to: change the multiplier to 1, if the newgrf sets a flag. that keeps (some) compatibility with old newgrfs-
21:38:25 <frosch123> anyway, need to sleep :)
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22:27:10 <Eddi|zuHause> www.eisenbahnstiftung.de/bg/pics/5348.jpg <-- that's "multimodal" transportation :p
22:28:03 *** roboboy has joined #openttd
22:47:53 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think he ever saw that line :p
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