IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-03-24
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00:44:07 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: yexo * r22273 /trunk/src/strings.cpp: -Fix (r22271) [FS#4562]: fix was incorrect
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07:23:30 <Terkhen> good morning
07:24:32 <Markk> Yes, acctually, its a good morning.
07:25:17 <planetmaker> moin
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07:27:38 * planetmaker wonders whether the students will still think "it's a good morning" after they see the exam tasks :-P
07:28:41 <Terkhen> if it is due today or tomorrow maybe, otherwise they will forget about it for now :)
07:29:06 <planetmaker> the exam is today at 11:30am
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07:29:15 <planetmaker> it's not a homework thingy
07:29:30 <Terkhen> then they won't be able to forget about it :)
07:30:12 <planetmaker> :-) I didn't find all tasks 'nice', to be honest
07:30:27 <planetmaker> but for physics 101 it's not my choice ;-)
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08:18:15 <dihedral> morning
08:19:26 <Terkhen> hi dihedral
08:19:33 <dihedral> :-)
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08:52:20 <planetmaker> moin dihedral
08:53:14 <dihedral> :-)
08:53:18 <dihedral> hey pm
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10:27:00 <Wolf01> hello
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13:23:58 <Belugas> hello
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13:35:27 <__ln__> you could say that
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13:41:26 <Belugas> that
13:41:31 <Belugas> ...
13:41:34 <Belugas> not hte same impact as
13:41:36 <Belugas> hello
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13:53:17 <planetmaker> still.... 'hello' ;-)
13:54:32 <Belugas> hehehe
13:54:41 <Belugas> hello to you too sir :)
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16:24:05 <dihedral> anybody got some hints? i want to fix alignment in bind zone files :-P
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16:35:30 <Eddi|zuHause> # So viel kaputt, aber so vieles nicht
16:35:31 <Eddi|zuHause> # Jede der Scherben spiegelt das Licht
16:35:32 <Eddi|zuHause> # So viel kaputt, aber zwischen der Glut
16:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> # Zwischen Asche und Trümmern war irgendwas gut
16:36:57 <dihedral> that does not help me :-D
16:37:19 <Eddi|zuHause> music always helps :)
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16:40:16 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, are you not an awk guru?
16:40:17 <dihedral> :-)
16:40:29 <Eddi|zuHause> depends.
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16:41:51 <dihedral> i have a bunch of bind zone files
16:42:07 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure what that is
16:42:36 <dihedral>
16:43:20 <dihedral> assume below the line starting with 'fred' there is another line, 'friedolin'
16:43:33 <dihedral> and i want all lines aligned correctly
16:43:46 <dihedral> and i do not know the length of the longest line
16:44:14 <Eddi|zuHause> aye, need to calculate that in a first pass, and then correct the spacing in a second pass
16:44:36 <dihedral> you have something up your seeve?
16:44:40 <dihedral> *sleeve
16:44:40 <Eddi|zuHause> not sure awk is the right tool for that, though ;)
16:44:52 <dihedral> i have about 800 files :-P
16:45:04 <Eddi|zuHause> a "real" script language like python would probably be better
16:46:10 <frosch123> can't you just guess to max length?
16:46:13 <frosch123> like 40 chars for the name
16:47:39 <dihedral> possibly could
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17:14:28 <LordAro> moin all
17:14:33 <confound_> dihedral: do you have perl installed?
17:14:36 *** confound_ is now known as confound
17:16:56 <Eddi|zuHause> if the answer to that is "yes", please uninstall it immediately :p
17:19:16 <confound> that is both dumb and unrealistic
17:22:13 <Eddi|zuHause> seriously, stay the hell away from perl...
17:23:01 <confound> seriously, he might have it installed because it comes with a lot of systems that also might have bind
17:23:18 <confound> that's all
17:23:45 <confound> python or ruby would also be fine, but they aren't installed as many places by default (yet)
17:24:13 <confound> dihedral: anyway, the longest one will be something like cat * | egrep -v '^;' | awk '{print length($1)}'
17:24:27 <confound> the longest first word, that is
17:25:49 <confound> applying that spacing would then be perl -pi.bak -ale '$F[0] = sprintf("%20s", $F[0]) unless $F[0] =~ /^;/' * where 20 is the hypothetical length
17:25:58 <confound> port to your favorite scripting language
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17:55:22 <LordAro> grrr...
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17:56:46 <LordAro> i can't do any aroai developing on my ubuntu pc because the repo version is 1.7.x and the latest version for ubuntu is 1.6.3!
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17:57:16 <LordAro> why can't everyone has a special building system like openttd? :(
17:57:54 * LordAro finds something else to do...
17:58:01 <Ammler> LordAro: mercurial?
17:58:09 <LordAro> yus
17:58:13 <peter1138> Eh?
17:58:18 <Ammler> repos are downwardscompatible
17:58:21 <peter1138> Oh, incompatible versions? Hah
17:59:11 <Ammler> what is the error you get with 1.6.3?
17:59:13 <LordAro> 1.7 -> 1.6 isn't: "abort: requirement 'dotencode' not supported!"
17:59:20 <Ammler> then disable that
18:00:09 <LordAro> can't - it's part of the /.hg/requires file, and i'm not brave enough to delete it :)
18:00:18 <Ammler> --config format.dotencode=false
18:00:42 <Ammler> clone it that way
18:01:05 <LordAro> that'd work without re-pulling the repo? (that was what official documentation told me)
18:01:11 <LordAro> oh, no :)
18:02:17 <Ammler> you don't really need dotencode
18:02:58 <LordAro> i'm sure i don't, but it's done now
18:03:04 <LordAro> what is it for?
18:04:11 <Ammler> what do you mean with done now?
18:04:31 <Ammler> why do you pull with 1.7, then work with 1.6?
18:04:45 <LordAro> my windows version of hg is 1.7
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18:05:17 <Ammler> and you work on same repo with 1.6?
18:05:28 <Ammler> just clone it and work with that
18:05:59 <LordAro> meh, it can wait
18:06:07 <LordAro> i just do something else :)
18:06:18 <LordAro> s/i/i'll/
18:06:34 <Ammler> it is just unlogical :-)
18:06:55 <Ammler> nobody works that way, that is why nobody really cares
18:08:07 <LordAro> its not my fault they haven't released a newer version for ubuntu
18:08:47 <Ammler> nah, please don't blame those, it is you not using it like the majority :-P
18:09:14 <Ammler> and there is still the config workaround for such situations
18:10:01 <LordAro> i guess...
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18:10:46 <LordAro> is there any way of finding out when they're going to decide to build a newer version (for ubuntu)?
18:11:16 <Ammler> don't hey have something like "factory repo"?
18:11:28 <Ammler> on suse you get already 1.8.1
18:11:54 <Rubidium> LordAro: natty is on 1.7.5, older ubuntus ones won't get newer hgs
18:12:28 <Ammler> Rubidium: ususally there is somewhere a backport or testing repo
18:12:58 <Rubidium> backports with ubuntu?
18:13:12 <Rubidium> nah... they release too fast for that to make sense
18:13:17 <LordAro> natty being ubuntu 11.04?
18:13:18 <glx> LordAro: ubuntu releases are simple, one in april and one in october
18:13:42 <Rubidium> even then, ubuntu is in freeze so new versions are unlikely to happen
18:14:07 <Ammler> anyway, you can still work with hg 1.0 on every repo
18:14:08 <Rubidium> unless someone specifically asks for it
18:14:54 <Rubidium> and then only when it's in Debian (which 1.8.1 is)
18:15:51 <LordAro> i think i can cope until april
18:15:53 <LordAro> :)
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18:16:29 <LordAro> hmm...28th april :L
18:16:49 <Rubidium> be aware that 1.1.0 does not support 11.04
18:16:49 <Ammler> don't move around repos with usual file tools, use hg clone/pull and you don't need
18:17:56 <Rubidium> yay libicu :(
18:18:18 <LordAro> Rubidium: what?
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18:19:14 <Rubidium> the Ubuntu 10.10 (or 10.04) binaries won't work on Ubuntu 11.04
18:19:34 <planetmaker> :-(
18:19:41 <LordAro> how come?
18:19:49 <Rubidium> libicu being stupid
18:19:57 <SmatZ> as usual
18:20:28 <Eddi|zuHause> 26 new episodes of futurama ordered
18:21:16 <LordAro> well you're going to have to fid a fix, or many people will start shouting at you :p
18:21:42 <LordAro> s/fid/find/
18:22:12 <__ln__> if someone chooses ubuntu, it's their own problem.
18:22:22 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: the "fix" is to use the generic binaries
18:22:34 * planetmaker really enjoys the "you'll have to" part in stuff which people do in their free time :-P
18:22:45 <SmatZ> :-)
18:23:24 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: or the "proper fix" is to convince the libicu people to provide binary compatibility between versions
18:23:48 <Eddi|zuHause> which you are free to try by yourself.
18:24:23 <LordAro> no thanks :)
18:24:34 <planetmaker> well. Then you got your fix ;-)
18:24:47 <Rubidium> stay at 10.10 ;)
18:24:54 <SmatZ> LordAro: or we will start shouting at you :p
18:25:16 <Rubidium> alternatively you could try to get 1.1.0 into 11.04
18:25:31 <LordAro> how hard would it be to just have separate binaries for 11.04? 10.04 and 10.10 are already split up
18:25:54 <Eddi|zuHause> LordAro: since there is no 11.04 yet...
18:26:01 <Rubidium> ~3 hours work, once 11.04 is available
18:26:31 <Rubidium> it's not hard, it's just boring and annoying
18:26:43 <LordAro> so what will hapen first? 11.04 or 1.1.0?
18:26:51 <Eddi|zuHause> yes.
18:27:09 <__ln__> Rubidium: are you using ubuntu yourself?
18:27:16 <Rubidium> the event to happen first will be the event that happens first
18:27:16 <Eddi|zuHause> HAHAHA
18:28:20 <LordAro> thought so :)
18:30:16 <Rubidium> __ln__: what benefits would Ubuntu give me over rushed releases and lagging updates?
18:31:29 <__ln__> Rubidium: none. that's why i was wondering.
18:31:39 <LordAro> Rubidium: so what do you use? (if you're allowed to tell me :P )
18:33:15 <Rubidium> Debian
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18:40:23 <TNT> hi, to whoever is reading atm:
18:40:41 <TNT> i want nuclear power-plants, uranium mines and castor-transports
18:43:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm afraid you'd have to do that yourself.
18:44:05 <Terkhen> TNT: write a NewGRF ;)
18:44:18 <TNT> ach nee, bin kein programmierer
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18:44:50 <Yexo> drawing the graphics for them and writing down a plan on the cargo types and how they should be transported will already go a long way towards getting somebody to help
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18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: translators * r22274 /trunk/src/lang/unfinished/frisian.txt:
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:34 <CIA-1> OpenTTD: frisian - 9 changes by Fopper
18:46:08 <TNT> hm, will have to kick a friend's ass to do this, i'm just an admin, he is programming games
18:46:41 <Yexo> you don't need to be a programmer to draw the graphics or write a document on which cargo types should be transported from which industry to which industry
18:47:49 <TNT> time is something i dont have these days unfortunately, i'm happy for every second i can play
18:48:24 <planetmaker> well. you can buy my time. It starts at 100€ /h for interesting stuff
18:48:53 <TNT> phew, you're more expensive than me
18:49:10 <planetmaker> shit happens ;-)
18:49:20 <Yexo> most likely because anything you'll hire him for will cut into his "free time" ;)
18:50:15 <TNT> i've got about 10 hours free time, 7-8 i need for sleep from that
18:51:15 <planetmaker> sounds like A LOT free time tbh
18:53:05 <TNT> if it would be less, i would have never been able to check out openttd :S
18:53:54 <TNT> but i'm glad about this project, since TT has always been one of my favorites
18:59:04 <TNT> another "stupid" question: can i change the double-click-speed somewhere? sometimes i do 2 clicks unwanted
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19:04:15 <Yexo> no, it's hardcoded at 500ms
19:05:14 <Eddi|zuHause> Breaking News: DNF won't make its deadline! :p
19:05:51 <SmatZ> haha
19:06:00 <SmatZ> why it doesn't surprise me :)
19:06:29 <Terkhen> that's unexpected :P
19:09:14 <TNT> thx, for answering/help; have to go now, will try visiting more often
19:09:14 <SmatZ> explained here
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19:10:37 <ar3k> Duke never comes early.
19:10:39 <ar3k> LOL
19:11:00 <SmatZ> :)
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19:13:43 <Nite> Hi
19:13:47 <Alberth> hi
19:13:54 <Nite> about the skip order button
19:14:19 <Nite> if u use ti with conditional orders
19:14:38 <Nite> it does always jump to the condition instead of the next in list
19:14:57 <Nite> is that intended or is it even still that way?
19:15:19 <Nite> because you cannot reach some orders with the skip button that way
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19:16:57 <Alberth> I have never tried the skip order button with conditional orders
19:17:24 <Alberth> so the best way to find out how it works is to try it, eg with the 1.1.0-RC3
19:17:27 <Nite> you never tried conditional orders?
19:17:40 <Alberth> only 1 time
19:17:58 <Alberth> but at that time I had no need to skip things :)
19:18:06 <Nite> i use them for save unload loops in case som ecs industry is overloaded ...
19:18:29 <Alberth> seems a good use case :)
19:18:41 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a theory:
19:18:42 <Alberth> I find ECS too complicated to be fun
19:18:57 <Eddi|zuHause> when paused, the jump was not evaluated
19:19:06 <Nite> i find vanilla insdustries to simple to be fun
19:19:17 <Eddi|zuHause> you try it unpaused (or the pause behaviour changed) so it is now immediately evaluated
19:19:26 <Nite> unpaused
19:19:30 <Eddi|zuHause> before you can use the skip button again
19:19:34 <Nite> i cannot pause a online game
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19:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> solution: make the skip button only jump to real orders
19:20:21 <Nite> i get your point, it evaluates and then jums
19:20:27 <Nite> + p
19:20:55 <Nite> iam talking about real orders
19:20:59 <Eddi|zuHause> workaround: reorder the entries, then skip, and reorder back
19:21:22 <Nite> real condi orders
19:21:40 <Nite> i get theat it has to jump if condition is true
19:21:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: i was counting conditional orders as "not real" in this context :p
19:22:05 <andythenorth> hello
19:22:27 <Alberth> hello andy
19:22:47 <Nite> id there a magic key combi to jump to an specific order?
19:23:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i think there is, but i'm not sure
19:23:26 <Nite> its not ctrl not alt and not shift + klick ;)
19:23:29 <Eddi|zuHause> but the (drag&drop) reordering way should work
19:23:31 <planetmaker> heya andythenorth
19:23:38 <Yexo> maybe double-click?
19:23:47 <Nite> nah the drag and drop is too complicated
19:23:49 <Chris_Booth> is there any way to set a company [password via console?
19:24:16 <Nite> doubkleklick does the "far middle near - end" thing
19:24:22 <Yexo> company_pw "new_pass"
19:24:43 <Eddi|zuHause> Nite: and ctrl+click on the skip button?
19:24:45 <Yexo> company_pw company_num "new_pass" <- to set the company of another company
19:25:19 <Yexo> Nite: select order, than ctrl+click on skip button
19:25:19 <Chris_Booth> so in thoery I should be able to add it to AP and set a company pass
19:25:24 <Nite> i got it!
19:25:25 <Yexo> at least according to the code that should work, didn't test
19:25:38 <Yexo> Chris_Booth: yes
19:25:46 <Chris_Booth> will have to test is thanks Yexo
19:25:56 <Nite> ALT + klick the skip button skips backUupwards the order list
19:26:23 <Chris_Booth> Nite: it is spelt Click :P
19:26:55 <Nite> (ctrl + K-lick does nada)
19:27:08 <Nite> its spelled klick in some countries
19:27:22 <Yexo> perhaps, but not in english ;)
19:27:25 <Chris_Booth> not in english though
19:27:30 <Chris_Booth> which is what you where typing
19:27:47 <Alberth> s/where/were/ :)
19:27:49 <Eddi|zuHause> who says you should speak english here? ... oh, wait... :p
19:28:08 <Chris_Booth> lol
19:28:10 <Nite> ahem yeah ... kind of english ... ahem ... i like klick more ;P
19:28:55 <Chris_Booth> way to go for me I must be the biggest noob here. correcting someone then getting it wrong myself :D
19:29:14 * Chris_Booth slaps him self arround the face with a wet fish
19:30:24 <Nite> why?
19:30:29 <Yexo> <Nite> ALT + klick the skip button skips backUupwards the order list <- is that a feature request?
19:30:35 <Yexo> it doesn't work that way currently
19:30:51 <Nite> Yexo no not a reques, it already does that
19:30:56 <Nite> it is a find
19:31:01 <Yexo> it doesn't work that way
19:31:03 <Nite> + t
19:31:08 <Nite> it does for me
19:31:20 <Yexo> than you don't use an official openttd version but a custom modified one
19:31:30 <Nite> SRY
19:32:12 <Nite> no it doesen't *asks chris_booth for a slap*
19:32:47 <Nite> it just jumped up because of the condi result
19:33:20 <Nite> sry by blindness
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19:34:39 <Nite> the tooltip mousoverleftClick says: ctrl + skip = jump to selected order
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19:35:06 <Nite> thx eddi ... btw
19:35:26 <Nite> thx Yexo
19:35:31 <Chris_Booth> just imagine if you could have double deck train station
19:35:46 <Chris_Booth> that would slove my 10x10tiles problem
19:35:54 <Chris_Booth> where i need more than 18 platforms
19:36:04 <Chris_Booth> but can't due to sever resritcions
19:36:17 <Nite> or loopings ;-)
19:36:38 <Nite> two stations maybee?
19:37:21 <Chris_Booth> can't Nite its a drop station for a big factory
19:37:31 <Chris_Booth> and I hate auto orders filling up my lists
19:38:22 <andythenorth> stop routing your trains to the wrong places? :P
19:38:38 <Chris_Booth> I had an idea for a 20 plafrom super termiuns
19:39:10 * andythenorth wonders about taking bets on automatic orders
19:39:18 <andythenorth> we could have various wagers
19:39:18 <Chris_Booth> andythenorth I am not I have all farms and steel droping in my factory drop, I could split up stations with waypoint
19:39:25 <Chris_Booth> and 2 drops
19:39:25 <andythenorth> 'number of complaints'
19:39:32 <andythenorth> 'number of requests for advanced setting'
19:39:40 <andythenorth> 'number of patches devised'
19:39:54 <andythenorth> 'number of rebuttals of complaints'
19:39:57 <Alberth> number of said patches hitting trunk :p
19:40:10 <Chris_Booth> why do we have auto orders now?
19:40:20 <Chris_Booth> why couldn't we just stick with the old system
19:40:25 <Chris_Booth> of not knowing is best?
19:40:45 <Alberth> to have more faithful lists of vehicles visiting a station
19:40:57 <Chris_Booth> i don't need to know though
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19:41:33 <Chris_Booth> for example if the station spread is 10 I can use an entrance and exit way point, then get effectivly double the drop platforms for a secondary industry
19:41:44 <Chris_Booth> I don't care which train used which drop
19:42:04 <Chris_Booth> and then it mean I only use none'none-stop' orders between my waypoint
19:42:10 <Chris_Booth> so it doesn't kill my network
19:42:28 <andythenorth> is non-stop now default?
19:42:32 <andythenorth> maybe it should be
19:42:42 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: it's a prerequesite for cargodist
19:42:54 * andythenorth ponders a toggle in the orders window
19:43:08 <andythenorth> seems like a case for progressive disclosure
19:43:52 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you can choose whether non-stop should be default
19:43:58 <andythenorth> I know
19:44:01 <Chris_Booth> yes in advanced settings
19:44:12 <andythenorth> I wondered what a vanilla config sets
19:44:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume that is off by default
19:44:19 <Chris_Booth> and it has cases for and against being default
19:44:23 <andythenorth> it should be off
19:44:31 <andythenorth> it's confusing
19:44:37 <andythenorth> more concepts == less fun
19:44:43 <Chris_Booth> no it isn't andythenorth
19:44:57 <andythenorth> it's extra words to read
19:44:58 <Chris_Booth> you try and play an openttdcoop game with none stop orders off
19:45:00 <Eddi|zuHause> what do you mean?
19:45:19 <andythenorth> I mean non-stop should be off by default
19:45:22 <Chris_Booth> you will just end up with cargo in the wrong place
19:45:45 <andythenorth> the default case shouldn't impose unnecessary words
19:45:54 <andythenorth> if non-stop was the default, then we should invert the words
19:46:12 <Chris_Booth> yes agreed
19:46:19 <andythenorth> to something like 'stop at any station'
19:46:24 <andythenorth> which is more explicit
19:46:25 <Chris_Booth> stoping should be added
19:46:33 <peter1138> So, er, how does one set UDMA mode on a drive with libata-style drivers?
19:46:56 <andythenorth> but changing the existing words screws with existing users :P
19:47:35 <Chris_Booth> who care about these 'users'?
19:47:49 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: does hdparm not do it?
19:47:55 <peter1138> No.
19:48:07 <Eddi|zuHause> weird...
19:48:12 <Eddi|zuHause> then i don't know
19:48:34 <Eddi|zuHause> there's also sdparm, but i have no clue how that works
19:48:54 <peter1138> Same :)
19:52:21 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe you just need a newer hdparm?
19:53:00 <peter1138> It's hdparm from Debian Squeeze. Probably not _that_ out of date, even for Debian ;)
19:55:03 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I expect more reactions about not allowing to change NewGRFs ingame :)
19:57:00 <Eddi|zuHause> i agree. there are way more people triggering the "i forgot to add a grf" case than the "i have auto-balancing network and it's a pathologic case for auto-orders"
19:57:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: you don't think there have been enough? :P
19:58:02 <Terkhen> I think that it will become worse :P
20:00:08 <Nite> the question is, do ppl really use "nonstop" more often then stopanywhere?
20:00:24 <Chris_Booth> I never use stop any where
20:00:31 <Yexo> I only use non-stop
20:00:40 <supermop> i only use non-stop
20:00:49 <Chris_Booth> none stop is more noob proof
20:01:21 <Nite> i use nonstop for most cargo systems (however not always set it if no statoin in between the route) and stopanywhere for pax systems
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20:03:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i used to use normal stop for passengers, but cargodist enforced me to use non-stop there
20:04:08 <Eddi|zuHause> now with auto-orders i will try to switch back
20:04:54 <Chris_Booth> what is the point in cargo dist?
20:05:02 <Chris_Booth> just ruins your network
20:05:37 <andythenorth> I used stop anywhere, until automatic orders
20:05:54 <andythenorth> now I realise all the wrong places my vehicles go to :P
20:06:30 <Alberth> Chris_Booth: feeder systems become much more interesting
20:06:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: au contraire. it makes a network useful in the first place
20:07:10 <Chris_Booth> it just means that you will have to make sure you only connect 1 of every secondary to your network
20:07:29 <Nite> autoorders where there befor you just did not see them
20:07:40 <Chris_Booth> and make sure you only have 1 station in towns
20:08:36 <Alberth> Chris_Booth: is that because you play for maximal volume transported?
20:08:46 <Chris_Booth> yes Alberth
20:09:11 <Alberth> ok, then it makes sense what you say :)
20:09:12 <Nite> inthe first place the "non stop default" meant that you could NOT do "stopeverywhere"
20:09:14 <Chris_Booth> when I play generaly it just about getting as many trains on one line as possible
20:09:25 <Nite> so you had to klick every statoin you wanted stops
20:09:30 <Alberth> I prefer a game where routing is a major concern
20:10:12 <Chris_Booth> I like game where you have side lines, that lead you to main lines, which then lead to main stations or towns
20:10:13 * andythenorth waves at Alberth - with some news about cb 14C and industry chain view :|
20:10:13 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: what if you play with production stockpile limits, or when you max out your standard factory?
20:10:23 <Nite> ma pax lines loo like this "ordered statoin - s1 - s2 - s3 - s4 - repeat - ordered station"
20:10:31 <Nite> s= unordered
20:10:40 <Chris_Booth> then I build a second inudstry in the same place Eddi|zuHause
20:10:46 <Alberth> andythenorth: I should be aware of what cb 14c does?
20:11:00 <andythenorth> customises output cargos
20:11:04 <andythenorth> it has a friend, 14B
20:11:12 <Nite> nonstop default is ok as long as you can set the stop everywhere in between
20:11:18 <Alberth> let me guess, it does input :)
20:11:21 <andythenorth> indeed
20:11:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: i'm pretty sure you can't sensibly supply two industries by the same station
20:11:34 <andythenorth> Alberth, conceptually, I don't know how you solve this :)
20:11:41 <andythenorth> but I can now lend you a test grf :P
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20:11:54 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: then you haven't looked in the openttdcoop archivethen
20:12:10 <Alberth> luckily I am happily unaware of what it does :)
20:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: they had to balance 4 separate stations back then
20:12:33 <Eddi|zuHause> Chris_Booth: while cargodist would auto-balance
20:12:50 <Yexo> Alberth: basically: input/output for one specific industry can differ from the input/output that is the default for that IndustryType
20:13:14 <Yexo> in code: class Industry has input/output types, they can differ from the corresponding input/output in class IndustrySpec
20:13:57 <Chris_Booth> Eddi|zuHause: I know I built alot in that game
20:14:10 <Chris_Booth> but still would just build another factory
20:14:19 * Alberth sighs deeply
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20:14:38 <V453000> these were 2 stations
20:14:40 <V453000> or more
20:14:59 <Chris_Booth> 4 station IIRC north south east and west
20:15:03 <V453000> yes
20:15:06 <V453000> each having 1 factory
20:15:15 <Chris_Booth> yes
20:15:52 <Chris_Booth> but realisticly with waypoint you can have 1 drop area(until auto orders kills you), and asmany drops as you want
20:16:01 <Chris_Booth> and then as many factories as you want
20:16:05 <V453000> no doubt
20:16:11 <V453000> we had that in psg 178
20:16:14 <V453000> 176
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20:16:47 <Chris_Booth> psg 176 was pre auto-orders?
20:17:25 <Alberth> cb 3D also looks interesting: " ... If there's another industry nearby that accepts this cargo, that one will get it. ..." <-- is that actually done?
20:17:39 <V453000> Chris_Booth: sure
20:17:45 <Alberth> afaik a station has only one targeting industry for a cargo?
20:17:45 <Nite> (in what way autoorders kills you?)
20:18:59 <Chris_Booth> when you use waypoint in this config, entrance -> anydrop station -> exit, auto orders fills you list with 255 stations between your 2 way points
20:19:12 <Chris_Booth> even if there are only 3 stations for example
20:19:19 <Chris_Booth> between your 2 waypoints
20:19:30 <Chris_Booth> so only 3 possible outcomes
20:19:44 <Chris_Booth> drop station 1, 2 or 3
20:19:52 <Chris_Booth> but auto oders thinks it know best
20:19:58 <Chris_Booth> and fills you list anyway
20:20:13 <Chris_Booth> its is even worse when you use a SRNW to pick up goods
20:21:08 <Chris_Booth> I think many people would agree with me on this subject
20:21:36 <Nite> another reason why autoorders should be "only" optional (beeing able to switch them off) :-/
20:21:40 <V453000> auto orders do not do anything useful at all, only make your order list unmanageable. You set orders once, not more
20:22:45 <Chris_Booth> my point exactly V453000
20:23:16 <Nite> i agree especially when you have set condi orders ... and suddenly the list chnges and it no more yump to order "2" but "3" then "4" ...
20:23:28 <Nite> (jump sry)
20:24:07 <Yexo> there shouldn't be an option to turn them off, but to hide them
20:24:22 <Chris_Booth> Nite that should never be an issue with conditional orders unless they are self regualting since you should be using none-stop orders
20:24:25 <Nite> (i whine having them only optional since they are there)
20:24:30 <Yexo> important difference is that hiding them can be done for each client separately in a multiplayer game, while turning them off would be global per game
20:25:49 <Nite> Chris_Booth but they are rather selfUNregualting ... And you do not always want nonstop orders and then you would have to live with autoorderview.
20:26:19 <Chris_Booth> or you can do what I do to stop them
20:26:31 <Chris_Booth> fill you list with 200+ unreachable orders
20:26:44 <Nite> Yexo if that is so (for each client separately) then its good
20:28:00 <Nite> *g* @ Chris
20:28:17 <Chris_Booth> g?
20:30:05 <Nite> "fill you list with 200+ unreachable orders" great workaround *g*
20:30:56 <peter1138> Eddi|zuHause, it's been GNOMEified. libata doesn't allow changing of DMA settings because it always chooses the best settings. Right...
20:31:25 <Nite> autoorders are rarely usefull and somtimes confuse or get in the way.
20:31:30 <Eddi|zuHause> aha. right! :p
20:31:48 <peter1138> ata1.00: configured for PIO
20:31:56 <peter1138> ^ Not necessarily the best setting...
20:32:59 <Eddi|zuHause> but maybe that means there's an underlying driver problem
20:32:59 <peter1138> ata1.00: configured for UDMA/100
20:33:18 <peter1138> That's better, but it only does that on boot up. After suspend/resume, it reverts to PIO :(
20:33:29 <peter1138> (And it's a laptop, so suspend/resume are normal things)
20:33:54 <peter1138> And 60MB/s vs 2.5MB/s is a big difference :S
20:34:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i know the effect :p
20:34:41 <peter1138> Sure, I'm just whining :D
20:34:41 <SmatZ> peter1138: can you use hdparm to set UDMA mode?
20:34:46 <peter1138> SmatZ, no.
20:34:54 <SmatZ> :(
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21:01:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Alberth
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21:01:00 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v Yexo
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21:17:49 <Wolf01> 'nighty night
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21:17:56 <Zuu> Btw, does the autoorders count up towards the maximum order count? I guess so, as they consume memory as well.
21:18:36 <Zuu> I remember there was an AI at the time when NoAI was a branch that solved the inverse travel salesman problem that got into trouble with the order list length.
21:20:24 <supermop> what is the inverse salesman problem?
21:20:45 <supermop> as much redundant travel as possible?
21:27:04 <Yexo> longest possible route that visits all stations once
21:27:10 <Yexo> as opposed to shortest possible route
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21:32:30 <supermop> ah
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21:45:20 <Terkhen> good night
21:56:45 * andythenorth seeks vehicles to carry recyclables cargo
21:56:55 <andythenorth> how do recyclables travel? :P
21:59:10 <supermop> usually bailed
21:59:24 <supermop> sometimes in dump trucks
22:00:10 <Eddi|zuHause> in containers? on euro-palettes?
22:00:32 <supermop> here glass would be deposited into dumpsters, which would then be dumped into a dump truck
22:00:47 * andythenorth wonders if pikka will allow them to travel in containers
22:00:53 <supermop> metal plastic and paper are compressed and bailed
22:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> supermop: this is not about the gathering process
22:03:29 <Eddi|zuHause> (at least that would be stupid to implement)
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22:05:53 <andythenorth> anyone with a FIRS checkout could now test recyclables for themselves ;)
22:06:00 <andythenorth> industries available 1997
22:07:02 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: what spoke against a "high tech" industry chain?
22:07:18 <andythenorth> lack of people speaking for it ;)
22:07:38 <Eddi|zuHause> people don't know what's good for them :p
22:07:45 <andythenorth> how would it work?
22:07:50 <V453000> or you do not know what is good for people
22:08:50 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: something like sand->wafers->electronic parts (chips)->goods
22:09:17 <Mazur> Sounds interesting.
22:09:24 <andythenorth> is it low volume, high value cargo?
22:09:35 <andythenorth> kind of an equivalent to valuables?
22:10:00 <Eddi|zuHause> low volume, high price, fast decay?
22:10:09 <Mazur> recyclables are generally high-volume low price.
22:10:24 <Mazur> no decay.
22:10:38 <Eddi|zuHause> at least the chips should be delivered fast, the wafers probably less
22:11:06 <Eddi|zuHause> wafers are difficult to manufacture, so the factory should be high input low output
22:11:10 <Mazur> Chips is low-volume high-price relatively fast price decay.
22:11:17 <andythenorth> I'm out of cargo space to put it in default FIRS
22:11:20 <V453000> I believe the main point of recyclables is adding something new, something very interesting in how it works, and something connected to towns. Making some sand/wafers/parts/goods is just one stupid chain that does nothing interesting at all. My opinion
22:11:45 <andythenorth> electronic parts could be valid
22:11:56 <andythenorth> as a high-value cargo to be shipped by plane
22:12:07 <V453000> there are goods for that already
22:12:34 <Mazur> V453000, I think a longer chain would encourage more diverse transport method usage, if only because there is only so much room for trains.
22:12:35 <andythenorth> the thing with recyclables is that it is (1) tied to town population (2) means a whole load of new challenges when things are getting boring
22:13:05 <V453000> you do not care if you deliver goods, call it electonic parts, call it alcohol, call it whatever, it just is the last product of the chain being delivered "whereever" ... nothing is produced from them anyway
22:13:46 <V453000> Mazur: one closed chain is just like coal->power plant but with 2 more stops in it
22:14:10 <confound> freight tied to town population would be interesting
22:14:20 <V453000> ^
22:14:20 <andythenorth> I am open to other new suggestions
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22:14:32 <andythenorth> with most sets, I find things get boring from about 1990
22:14:41 <andythenorth> when all the good vehicles become available
22:14:50 <V453000> I think FIRS has enough already ;) do not overcombinate, and the recyclables will be absolutely amazing
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22:14:55 <andythenorth> the industry set should address that with new chains
22:14:56 <confound> fwiw, I thought recyclables was boring at first and that electronics would be better, but V453000 has convinced me otherwise
22:15:16 <V453000> ^_^
22:15:50 <confound> do nuclear power plants need any particular supplies that would be interesting?
22:15:50 * andythenorth tests recyclables some more
22:15:55 <andythenorth> confound: no
22:16:09 <andythenorth> often discussed
22:16:12 <Mazur> Victims?
22:16:15 <confound> figures
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22:16:33 <confound> I suppose you could have a couple of different waste disposal chains
22:17:00 <confound> early on, towns could produce, uh, waste. which could be turned into farm supplies
22:17:20 <confound> recyclables later
22:17:24 <confound> industrial waste sometime
22:17:27 * confound handwaves
22:17:50 <andythenorth> the first attempt at waste in FIRS was....boring
22:18:03 <andythenorth> limited gameplay value
22:18:17 <andythenorth> hmm
22:18:26 <andythenorth> recyclables produces quite a lot of cargo in a large city
22:18:27 <andythenorth> this is fun
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22:21:13 <devilsadvocate> confound: andythenorth: heavy water
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22:23:13 <confound> it'd end up being single-purpose, unlike pretty much anything else
22:23:23 <confound> I guess recyclables are going to be like that too
22:25:44 <andythenorth> recyclables have one twist
22:26:03 <andythenorth> the recycling plant destination produces random output cargos
22:26:38 <andythenorth> good night
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22:26:43 <confound> meh
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