IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-21
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00:11:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21874 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when a single-vehicle train was reversed while on a slope, its GOINGUP/DOWN weren't swapped
00:26:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i have problems calling single vehicles "train"
00:28:24 <Eddi|zuHause> in german terminology, a "zug" must consist of at least two vehicles
00:34:28 <Eddi|zuHause> (strangely, though, it's also called "zug" when it's actually pushed)
00:35:33 <SmatZ> or "zu zuggen" or whatever it could be :)
00:35:34 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, amongst other things ;)
00:35:53 <Eddi|zuHause> comes from "ziehen" ;)
00:36:56 <Eddi|zuHause> Zehn zahme Ziegen zogen zehn Zentner Zucker zum zeitzer Zug
00:37:25 <SmatZ> all those words are derived from ziehen?
00:37:41 <SmatZ> "Zucker" like "exctracted from som...
00:37:50 <Eddi|zuHause> it's a tongue twister ;)
00:38:05 <SmatZ> I understand only a few words from that :(
00:40:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it's not that uncommon words... "Zentner" is a unit of weight (100 pounds, i.e. 50 kilo)
00:40:58 <Eddi|zuHause> (derived from "Cent" meaning 100 in many languages)
00:41:22 <Eddi|zuHause> and Zeitz is a city, known for its sugar
00:42:54 <Eddi|zuHause> "Ziege" is a goat, and "Zucker" of course is sugar
00:44:05 <SmatZ> ok... "ten taimed goats pull 1 tonne of sugar to Zeitz's train"
00:44:24 <SmatZ> first problem - translating from german to czech ; second problem - translating from czech to english :)
00:44:48 <Eddi|zuHause> something like that
00:45:09 <Eddi|zuHause> only it's half a tonne, in my calculation ;)
00:45:28 <SmatZ> right, I overlooked that "pounds, i.e. 50 " part :)
00:45:33 <Eddi|zuHause> one "zentner" is the typical unit of weight that a grown man can carry with this hands
00:45:47 <SmatZ> I am not sure I could carry that
00:45:55 <SmatZ> even if I could... I wouldn't want to
00:46:47 <Eddi|zuHause> well, this kind of weight you typically lift on your back
00:47:05 <__ln__> even relatively short females weigh 50 kg
00:49:40 <DJNekkid> bbw or tall ones? :P
00:50:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i've seen you, you aren't THAT tall either...
00:50:42 <SmatZ> depends how you define bbw, but I would have problems with woman taller than me :)
00:51:15 <DJNekkid> thats ... 6'1 i think
00:51:16 <Eddi|zuHause> i have around 193cm
00:51:28 <DJNekkid> if there are any of thoose wierd imperial guys around :P
00:51:44 <Eddi|zuHause> those are clearly a minority :p
00:52:30 <DJNekkid> dont you just hate it btw, that you are REALLY REALLY tierd at 7 or 8, and when you go to bed at midnight no way you can get to sleep
00:53:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but i have stopped going to bed at midnight.
00:53:49 <SmatZ> I know that feeling, but I am home nowadays, so I wake up at like 11
00:55:08 <DJNekkid> im on sickleave as well...
00:55:26 <DJNekkid> but i would like to get something close to a normal day rythm back
01:02:44 <__ln__> a day should be standardized to be 25 hours. i'd be happy about that.
01:03:10 <DJNekkid> nah ... 40, with 10 days per week :)
01:03:25 <DJNekkid> with the normal 8hour/5 day work per week :P
01:04:09 <SmatZ> in last two years, it wasn't unusual people worked only 4 days a week (because of the "crisis")
01:04:23 <SmatZ> but also for only 4/5 of normal wage
01:04:40 <__ln__> 18 hours of wake time and 12 hours of sleep is only 30 hours... what would you do with the remaining 10?
01:05:07 <DJNekkid> what i usually do .. zombie in front of the computer and/or TV :P
01:05:35 <SmatZ> have "sex" with girls on my computer screen
01:06:25 <DJNekkid> i have my wife for that...
01:06:27 <__ln__> if a day was 25 hours, 4 days would comfortably be a centi-hour
01:07:44 <SmatZ> yeah, I also wanted to change the world, so it has 10 days a week, 3 of which would be weekend
01:07:52 <DorpsGek> SmatZ: 0.714285714286
01:08:11 <DorpsGek> __ln__: 0.285714285714
01:08:26 <FauxFaux> e^__ln__*0.285714285714
01:08:31 <SmatZ> 0,70 and 0,71, the ratio of work days and weekend would not change much
01:09:02 <SmatZ> each with 36 or 37 days
01:09:11 <SmatZ> without that silly February with 28 days...
01:09:17 <FauxFaux> I think you should concentrate on ridding us of DST first.
01:09:40 <SmatZ> each ~four years, there would be one "special" day for 29th February
01:09:45 <__ln__> that's right, DST is the stupidest invention ever
01:09:52 <SmatZ> I think I even had names for those 10 days and 10 months...
01:10:06 <FauxFaux> SmatZ: Or just let it shift, then drop 50 days at a time and watch the public cry as you're making them older.
01:10:13 <FauxFaux> (Like they did last time.)
01:10:15 <SmatZ> at least in the past, DST saved power
01:10:34 <FauxFaux> That's disputed iirc.
01:12:05 <SmatZ> [02:10:50] <FauxFaux> (Like they did last time.) <== you mean that julian/gregorian calendar switch?
01:13:15 <DJNekkid> thats what i thought
01:13:21 <SmatZ> that one-hour change in September and March (?)
01:13:42 <__ln__> when you least expect it
01:13:46 <SmatZ> actually, it seems to be the "summer time"
01:13:57 <DJNekkid> first saturday after the ... whats it called....
01:14:03 <DJNekkid> when the day is equally long
01:14:21 <DJNekkid> solstice is in the winter and summer i believe?
01:14:23 <Eddi|zuHause> solstice is the shortest/longest day
01:14:33 <FauxFaux> I can't read "equinox" as not the Eclipse (Java IDE) platform thing.
01:14:58 <SmatZ> interesting, in CZ, the end of DST changed in 1996 from "last week in September" to "last week in October"
01:16:04 <DJNekkid> i think we have last week in october here as well
01:16:43 <Eddi|zuHause> probably to match the german one
01:17:19 <SmatZ> probably has something to do with EU-unification
01:19:11 <__ln__> iirc, Estonia made the smart move and got rid of DST within the last 15 years, but then they joined EU and are again obeying DST.
01:22:36 <DJNekkid> not sure how much sense that made
01:22:51 <DJNekkid> it exploded in a bus instead of in the bank?
01:22:57 <SmatZ> [02:07:01] <DJNekkid> i have my wife for that... <== interesting, for some reason I thought you are quite young
01:23:30 <SmatZ> DJNekkid: it killed the terrorists instead of killing people in a bus
01:23:56 <DJNekkid> well, im turning 30 in april, so i guess it can be discussed if im young or not :)
01:24:01 <SmatZ> google translate isn't perfect :)
01:24:14 <SmatZ> DJNekkid: older than me :)
01:24:37 <SmatZ> maybe I have mistaken you with someone else...
01:24:56 <SmatZ> (actually, it's quite possible)
01:25:45 <SmatZ> though... not as serious problem as Vinnie at the public server, who has the very same nick as "vinnie" who was banned
01:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> how feasible would it be to have action14 reference a realsprite as "preview" image?
01:33:18 <Eddi|zuHause> might be problematic to have realsprites before action 8
01:34:39 <SmatZ> I would love to answer that, but I have no clue
01:38:44 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21875 /trunk/src/ (6 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: indentation of some comments was wrong
01:41:22 * SmatZ wonders how that dioxin scandal could happen in Germany
01:43:45 <SmatZ> (I would wonder if it happened in any country, but in Germany, it surprises me twice as much)
01:44:01 <SmatZ> on the other hand, maybe in other countries, nobody would notice that :p
02:11:54 <SmatZ> silly bank transfers with currency conversion...
02:12:20 <SmatZ> it costs me ~10E to send money to a non-CZK account..
02:12:38 * SmatZ needs a cheaper way to send money
02:13:01 <Eddi|zuHause> handle your accounts in euro? ;)
02:13:55 <SmatZ> I use my account only to pay/take money in CZK...
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02:15:56 <SmatZ> hello Eddi|zuHause, where have you been?
02:16:11 <Eddi|zuHause> somewhere in connection-nirvana
02:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't really understand it, though
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08:47:34 <Bobingabout> I have questions, not related to OTTD, but to programming... i just didn't know where else to turn, so i was wondering if someone here could help me
08:50:25 <FauxFaux> Not if you don't ask the questions.
08:50:57 <DorpsGek> Terkhen: Don't ask to ask, just ask
08:51:03 <Bobingabout> I'm writing a game, by myself, but with my current knowledge, and lack of direction, i started working on it in borland turbo C++ to quickly calculate formula and tune them etc. since starting my program has grown beyond what borland seems capable of compiling.
08:51:14 <Bobingabout> i saw, was typing, not so easy on a netbook
08:51:17 <FauxFaux> DorpsGek: Arrrrgh! Your question is entirely useless. Fill in the blanks: "I tried [X] in [Y]. I got [A] but I was expecting [B]. The simplest way I can think to reproduce this is [C]." Reply on one line. If it doesn't fit, use a pastebin. Do not even think of speaking before fully filling in the question.
08:51:39 * Terkhen has no experience with that compiler
08:51:51 <Bobingabout> doesn't matter, its old and crap
08:51:54 <Terkhen> I wasn't even aware it was still around
08:51:57 <FauxFaux> It's effectively deprecated, yeah.
08:52:16 <Bobingabout> anyway, i want a new compiler
08:52:40 <Bobingabout> i do have MSVC enterprise 2008, but am willing to try others
08:52:46 <Terkhen> Bobingabout: try the tutorials on how to compile OpenTTD and choose your compiler after that
08:53:00 <FauxFaux> On Windows you basically have to use MSVC, welcome to your one-platform platform. ¬_¬
08:53:20 <Bobingabout> compiling isn't the actual issue, the problem is what to do next
08:53:24 <FauxFaux> There's no serious IDE, though, is there.
08:53:38 <FauxFaux> Eclipse CDT barely works on Windows, etc.
08:53:38 <Bobingabout> i want to move from old DOS stuff to new windows stuff
08:53:56 <Terkhen> there are a few IDEs that work with mingw; code blocks and qt creator
08:54:04 <Terkhen> I just use notepad++ myself
08:54:31 <Bobingabout> but the issue is... when i try on MSVC it tries to make me use a form view, like a windows popup dialog window, i do not want this
08:55:00 <FauxFaux> Bobingabout: The project creation window asks you what you want; you want either an empty project or a console project, not a gui one.
08:55:17 <Bobingabout> not console, so i guess empty
08:55:34 <Bobingabout> but then there's still the issue on how do i output to the screen, so... any guides on this?
08:55:43 <FauxFaux> How are you doing it at the moment? :s
08:56:24 <Bobingabout> gotoxy(X,Y); setbackgroundcolor(C); cprintf("text",variables);
08:56:55 <Bobingabout> of corse, gotoxy and setbackgroundcolor and things like that are classified in the CRT instructions, and are also depreciaed
08:57:09 <Bobingabout> plus i want graphics
08:57:45 <Bobingabout> i guess the best thing for me is a guide on the simplest way to output graphics on a modern platform
08:58:02 <Terkhen> for something that creates graphics with simpler coding you could check Qt, although it might not be what you really need
08:58:20 <Bobingabout> how ddoes OTTD do it?
08:59:03 <Terkhen> check the gfx* functions and the video folder at OpenTTD code
08:59:08 <Bobingabout> i still arn't having any luck getting MSVC to open OTTD properly, but when i look at the code, it makes me go 0.o
08:59:15 <Terkhen> I might be forgetting something, it is not a part of the code I know well
08:59:34 <Terkhen> there is a tutorial for MSVC at the wiki
08:59:44 <Bobingabout> i should read that X3
09:00:22 <Bobingabout> multiplatform is something i am open to, but i wouldn't know where to begin
09:00:33 <Bobingabout> not something i can do by myself
09:00:42 <Bobingabout> i'd be happy to make it run on 1 system
09:03:29 <Bobingabout> so how does OTTD do it?
09:04:22 <Terkhen> if you check stdafx.h you can get an idea
09:05:36 <Bobingabout> so stdafx is graphics related?
09:05:39 <peter1138> if you want pixel output, sdl is a good start
09:05:55 <Terkhen> no, I mentioned the graphics files earlier
09:05:58 <peter1138> if you want a toolkit, try qt
09:06:06 <Terkhen> stdafx is an example of multiplatform code :)
09:06:33 <peter1138> technically openttd should only need to support sdl, heh...
09:06:46 <Terkhen> if you want something simple I would also suggest qt, it should also take care of multiplatform up to some point
09:06:53 <Bobingabout> pixel output is fine
09:07:04 <Bobingabout> its sprite based similar to OTTD
09:07:50 <Bobingabout> so what is this SDL?
09:08:32 <Terkhen> that's easily findable, their web should have a FAQ or something like that
09:09:05 <Bobingabout> so somthing else i have to download
09:11:27 <Bobingabout> okay, thanks for the help
09:14:36 <Bobingabout> so, a summery... look at stdafx for multiplatform example, use MSVC in empty mode, look into SDL, and look into the GFX files of OTTD. also look up how to compile OTTD on windows
09:15:23 <Terkhen> check Qt too, it might be simpler than doing all of those
09:16:10 <peter1138> eh, QT is good for a wimp-style program
09:16:23 <peter1138> SDL for a pixel-pushing gaming-type-thing
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09:16:40 <Terkhen> yes, Qt is what I use when I don't want to think much about what I'm doing :)
09:16:46 <Bobingabout> Yeah, thats what i want. graphics drawing on a pixel level
09:17:17 <Bobingabout> as long as i can have multiple layers of grapphics, say, background then chars on top
09:17:56 <peter1138> you've got to do that yourself
09:18:09 <Bobingabout> i don't mind, as long as its possible
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09:18:17 <peter1138> anything's possible
09:18:35 <Terkhen> yay for forgetting to add a file to my repo and then purging it
09:18:40 <Bobingabout> i don't think "microsoft getting things right" is possible
09:19:39 <Bobingabout> so, whats qt do thatis different from sdl?
09:20:22 <peter1138> qt is a gui toolkit
09:20:49 <Bobingabout> for things like windows windows? yeah, pass X3
09:21:23 <Bobingabout> at this phase, it might me easier though, put up a box, and write text in it
09:21:44 <Bobingabout> but i have to move forward at some point, why not now
09:27:49 <planetmaker> now that was weired to some extend... ^^
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10:19:44 <devilsadvocate> can someone please help me out in getting FIRS working? I tried getting in from the in-game content download system, but it seems to be doing something strange with the industries. for instance, i've got two kinds of coal / iron ore mines and no steel mills
10:20:10 <Terkhen> devilsadvocate: you are probably using two industry sets at the same time
10:20:32 <devilsadvocate> Terkhen: none of my other sets are industry sets
10:20:55 * devilsadvocate tries to see if i can somehow export the list i have enabled
10:21:10 <Terkhen> take a screenshot and upload it somewhere
10:21:24 <planetmaker> complete screenshot of the newgrf settings / active newgrfs
10:22:28 <planetmaker> alternatively: save it as preset, exit the game, copy&paste the preset from your cfg
10:23:28 <Terkhen> but on some pastebin, not here :)
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10:34:56 <Ammler> saveconfig does save to cfg without exit
10:36:20 <Ammler> ReducedPassengerPayment sounds like industry set
10:36:28 <devilsadvocate> I _used_ to play with ECS and japanese railway foo before i reinstalled my machine. I couldnt see all the ECS vectors on bananas, so I figured I may as well move to FIRS
10:37:04 <devilsadvocate> the descript says it just reduces passenger payment
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10:37:13 <devilsadvocate> I'll remove it just in case and try
10:37:20 <Ammler> yes, I wonder how it does that
10:37:32 <George> devilsadvocate: I couldnt see all the ECS vectors on bananas, -> what could not you find on banans?
10:37:48 <devilsadvocate> no. the industry list did not change
10:38:03 <devilsadvocate> George: I only saw the Base and Construction vectors
10:38:16 <Ammler> also you might not need the ECS vehicle set and the ogfx+sets as those should be new industries compatible already
10:38:52 <George> Conctruction is being moved to ECS Basic II
10:39:59 <devilsadvocate> George: I see ECS Basic Beta 5 (Nov 2009) and ECS Construction beta 5 (Dec 2010)
10:41:00 <devilsadvocate> Ammler: ok. i removed those. now the steel mill is back, but there are still two coal mines (which i can live with, tbh)
10:41:31 <Terkhen> IIRC AveiMil NewGRF is a industry set too
10:41:39 <George> ECS Basic vector II 1.0 (31Dec2010) 4805 times 4D656F9F CC-BY-NC-ND v3.0
10:42:24 <George> ECS Construction Vector B5 (27 Dec 2010) 7480 times 4D656F96 CC-BY-NC-ND v3.0
10:42:30 <planetmaker> devilsadvocate, I think the aveimil's gameplay mod does harm
10:42:44 <devilsadvocate> ok. removing that too
10:43:44 <Ammler> does someone know, how that reduced passenger payment grf works?
10:43:47 <planetmaker> indeed, ogfx+rv / ogfx+trains should provide exactly the same as the ecs&firs original vehicles
10:44:13 <planetmaker> I've no idea about that newgrf, but probably just re-defines the PASS cargo
10:44:27 <Ammler> you mena the default vehicles?
10:44:40 <planetmaker> no, the last line answered your question ;-)
10:44:48 <devilsadvocate> George: I'm not sure why, but I dont see Basic II from the In-Game thing.
10:46:21 <planetmaker> he, that newgrf window is so totally 1.0.x ;-)
10:46:49 <George> devilsadvocate: With check on-line content and "basic" as a filter I see both Basic and Basic II
10:46:51 <devilsadvocate> *buntu package
10:47:04 <George> [13:46:50] <devilsadvocate> 1.0.4 -> 1.0.5
10:47:32 <planetmaker> 1.0.5 -> 1.1.0-beta4 ;-)
10:47:35 <George> You do not see other ECS vectors too
10:47:59 <George> planetmaker: 1.0.5 is enough
10:48:18 <devilsadvocate> and yeah, the problem was the aveimil GRF. the industry set looks sane now.
10:48:34 <V453000> something new with ECS?
10:49:08 <Ammler> devilsadvocate: if you care, you can report that to FIRS, so it could handle that issue
10:49:11 <V453000> dont know I havent played ECS for a year
10:49:12 <planetmaker> George, what difference do you expect to be between 1.0.4 and 1.0.5 to make that decision?
10:49:45 <George> the 1.0.5 was the last stable on 31 dec 2010
10:49:56 <devilsadvocate> Ammler: will do that. first i'm going to try a few combinations and see if it was just that
10:50:09 <George> if it would be 1.1 then I'd choose 1.1 :)
10:50:55 <George> planetmaker: something wrong?
10:51:07 <devilsadvocate> ok. the reduced passenger payment wasnt interfering
10:51:20 <planetmaker> no, I just wondered whether there was another reason. It's perfectly good enough one :-)
10:51:51 <Ammler> well, I would not use "perfectly" :-P
10:52:00 <devilsadvocate> I think one or more of the ogfx+rv / ogfx+trains / ecs&firs original vehicles was causing large scale breakage, though - the missing steel mill etc
10:52:30 <V453000> George: would it be possible to make the primary industry grow slower on production? every time I played with ECS, it was nice that I could disable all the weird working things but the industries still grew just way too quickly in my opinion :( you get extremely high productions in very early ages
10:52:37 <planetmaker> those are vehicle newgrfs... they should have no impact on any industry
10:55:11 <George> V453000: Suggest the new growth algorithm.
10:56:11 <planetmaker> George, the only real 'twist' is that setting the min. version to 1.0.5 means also that it runs on nightlies which were created prior even to 1.0.0 ;-)
10:56:35 <planetmaker> as they have a higher version number as they already target 1.1 ;-)
10:56:44 <planetmaker> But most people won't play those anyway (anymore)
10:57:29 <V453000> George: I am just giving a feedback from a player :)
10:58:00 <V453000> the original industries have the best algorithm imo, only the vehicles would need something there :)
10:58:29 <George> V453000: It is not the first callback like that. Currently I disabled x2 growth if current production is above 50%
10:58:47 <George> May be you can suggest somethung better?
10:59:10 <George> I understand it is a problem, but I do not see elegant solution for that
10:59:22 <George> Players suggestions may help a lot
10:59:34 <V453000> I dont really know :) was just suggesting the general idea ... will look into that later
11:00:01 <George> default algothirm is too random
11:01:38 <George> planetmaker: as they have a higher version number as they already target 1.1 -> setting min version to 1.0.4 would do the same, right?
11:03:01 <Ammler> feature wise, 1.0.0 is the same as 1.0.5 in most cases, you might just set a higher if there was a bugfix between
11:03:47 <V453000> George: the randomness is actually great :)
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11:05:59 <George> V453000: I've tested it in the early versions of the ECS Wood vector. While testing I find it is a madness. BTW, smooth economy was invented not on the free place, but because of this randomness
11:06:32 <V453000> I meant smooth of course
11:06:48 <George> when you transport 1024 tons of coal and suddenly get 512 - it is like a hurricane
11:08:36 <George> <V453000> I meant smooth of course -> I can suggest to disallow growing above 12,5% in case transportation level is not 60, but 80% ;)
11:09:11 <V453000> that would make some good sense I think
11:09:40 <V453000> so theoretically, as good service would you provide, the industry could slow down if you provided not good enough?
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11:12:19 <George> yes, for high growth you would need not good, but excelent service
11:14:55 <George> do you think that growing to the highest level should happen in 11 years in case of normal service (60-80%) or 11 years is not much enougth for you?
11:15:10 <V453000> I would make it like 50 or even more years
11:15:14 <George> how many years do you expect?
11:15:27 <George> the game lasts only 100 years
11:15:29 <V453000> 11 is like ... 2,5 hours
11:15:49 <V453000> well, if it lasts 100, then it should take at least 50 to get to highest level
11:15:52 <George> but the whole game is 24 hours
11:16:19 <V453000> well, yes, but many people play for example from 1900 till 2100
11:16:30 <George> you do not start transporting from every industry on the first day
11:16:48 <V453000> but at the same time you do not want to have all industries on top production I think
11:17:33 <V453000> and it shouldnt be imo so easy to get the best thing :)
11:18:16 <V453000> when you image you start in 1930-50, there arent any much new trains until ~1970 in most of the sets
11:18:39 <V453000> if you start growing some industries in the start, by 1970 it will be just so high :(
11:19:02 <V453000> then newer trains might come, but the productions are already too high to cope reasonably
11:19:42 <V453000> my point there is, if you have an industry that requires 1 full line of trains on its own, it results in people building just single lines there and back, without any thinking
11:20:01 <V453000> making industries produce a bit less makes them want to connect some lines together
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12:21:07 <__ln__> bon/buon/buenos jour/giorno/días
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13:33:43 <dihedral> SmatZ, "Stay tooned" <- "Stay tuned" ;-)
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13:40:28 <Eddi|zuHause> hey, maybe he meant the looney toons
13:41:03 <SmatZ> yeah, I had that in mind :)
13:41:20 <SmatZ> but there are two o's in looney, not in tunes :)
13:41:22 <fonsinchen> Can anyone explain line 840 in smallmap_gui.cpp to me?
13:41:27 <fonsinchen> What is the magic 3?
13:41:53 <fonsinchen> I have replicated that in DrawLinks later and it works, but I can't explain why.
14:02:23 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: have you thought about a toggle button to show own company grid only or all companies' grid? [this might be along the same line as showing other companies' custom company colours, i.e. an advanced setting. or a button in the smallmap]
14:06:07 <Belugas> toggle switch. 3PDT. bi-polar led
14:09:02 <fonsinchen> Eddi|zuHause: If done like company colours I'd get serious space problems in the smallmap legend
14:09:30 <fonsinchen> And I don't quite know what the point about showing other companies' link graphs would be.
14:10:08 <fonsinchen> I already had to increase the default size of the smallmap to accomodate the saturation legend.
14:10:11 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: outside of infrastructure sharing it would be mostly informative, but with infrastructure sharing it might really be important to know
14:11:03 <fonsinchen> Then we should implement it when either infrastructure sharing or cargodist is in trunk and the other one is to be merged.
14:12:38 <Eddi|zuHause> fonsinchen: the magic 3 seems to be there since r1
14:13:13 <fonsinchen> That doesn't help me answer Rubidiums question, though.
14:14:37 <fonsinchen> I guess it won't be that hard to create a general class for drawing a link graph overlay on any window. I'll refactor things to allow that.
14:43:59 <__ln__> has anyone used eComStation?
14:44:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21876 /trunk/src/ (7 files): -Codechange: typedef SpecializedVehicleBase and GroundVehicleBase to reduce typing
14:51:00 <dihedral> would it make sense to introduce a server side setting which defines if a clients move request is processed? :-)
14:52:31 <dihedral> perhaps with different values, defining if a) a client may move at all, b) client may move to spectators c) client can move as he/she wishes
14:53:13 <Eddi|zuHause> isn't that the perfect task that a bot is useful for?
14:57:28 <Terkhen> couldn't a client just disconnect and reconnect to move wherever he wishes?
15:05:30 <planetmaker> I don't think such setting is needed, for that reason and anyway ^
15:05:50 <planetmaker> if a client should not join a company: pw-protect it.
15:06:00 <planetmaker> If a client should not join the server: pw protect it
15:06:14 <planetmaker> forbidding a client in a company to move to spectator: unlogical
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15:16:00 <Ammler> is it also possible to get the company pw (at least the hash)?
15:16:48 <Ammler> and setting the company pw hash would allow to make a script for restart with pw
15:18:02 <Ammler> what is setting company_pw for?
15:21:15 <Ammler> ah we once used that to make the server public for specs but still private company
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15:22:21 <Ammler> but since people move to specs for idling, this isn't useable anymore I fear
15:23:28 <peter1138> sometimes one wonders what you talking about
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15:30:09 <Ammler> I am happy, it is only one :-)
15:30:29 <Chris_Booth> a happy Ammler is a productive Ammler
15:31:14 <Chris_Booth> thought I would just chip in something unrelated and useless
15:32:12 <Ammler> peter1138: the only usage I see for company_pw is for replacing random server pw with random company pw
15:32:56 <planetmaker> Ammler, or for making a certain company accessible only to a certain player group, but forcing one company PW
15:33:06 <planetmaker> like for wwottdgd/x
15:33:08 <Ammler> but as one who moved from company to specs because he does pause, would need to give the pw again, so it become useless
15:33:55 <Chris_Booth> WWOTTDGD would benift from no passwords, and an auto assign to a company depending of a nick list
15:34:12 <Chris_Booth> and a new player would join the company with least players
15:34:25 <Ammler> wwottdgd2 has something like that
15:34:40 <Ammler> combined with unique id, which is gone in the meantime
15:34:48 <claude> how to change my name?
15:35:17 *** claude is now known as darkomen
15:36:16 <darkomen> Can anyone tell me what are the libraries used in the source code of OTTD?
15:36:53 <Chris_Booth> they are listed on the wiki.openttd.org compiling page
15:49:19 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21877 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp tile_type.h): -Codechange: move definition of HALF_TILE_SIZE to tile_type.h
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15:53:55 <planetmaker> darkomen, believe me: it's few
15:55:14 <planetmaker> zlib, libpng, liblzma. then maybe sdl. maybe some music. And I probably forgot stuff ;-)
15:57:00 <planetmaker> yes. forgot freetype2, fontconfig and icu
15:57:09 <planetmaker> and possibly lzo2
15:57:33 <planetmaker> still it's very few for a project of this size.
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16:09:33 <Terkhen> oh, you mentioned it :)
16:14:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21878 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Codechange: move parts of UpdateInclination() to separate functions
16:21:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21879 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh_cmd.cpp train_cmd.cpp): -Codechange: reset vehicle's GOINGUP/DOWN bits when it crashes
16:35:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21880 /trunk/src/train_cmd.cpp: -Fix: when a train after reversing ended at the last bit of a bridge ramp and directed outside the bridge, it could still have track set to TRACK_BIT_WORMHOLE
16:47:18 <Fixer> hi... i want to make one suggestion - if you can... warn translators on the main page for the coming release to translate remaining words (when no new new text will be added for translation)
16:48:53 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21881 /trunk/src/saveload/afterload.cpp: -Codechange: ensure that vehicle's GOINGUP/DOWN bits are set correctly and that it has correct z_pos when converting from older savegames
16:49:31 <planetmaker> Fixer, translators got an e-mail some time ago
16:49:59 <planetmaker> like December, I think
16:50:01 <Fixer> i don't get emails... let me check
16:51:18 <Terkhen> I got it the 16th of december
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16:51:44 <Fixer> i don't get it... my box is empty
16:51:47 <planetmaker> But it is not guaranteed that (currently) no string will change or be added.
16:52:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21882 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Codechange: make use of the fact that vehicle's Z position can change only if it has GVF_GOINGUP_BIT or GVF_GOINGDOWN_BIT set
16:52:14 <planetmaker> Keeping translations up2date can be done through-out the year.
16:52:35 <planetmaker> Fixer, well, are you a registered translator? With a valid e-mail address at openttd?
16:52:47 <planetmaker> then you *should* have gotten it automatically
16:52:56 <Fixer> planetmaker: i can edit now... and i wrote to some guy on openttd to allow me
16:52:58 <planetmaker> But Rubidium ^ might know exactly how
16:53:18 <planetmaker> if after 16 December, you naturally didn't get that e-mail ;-)
16:53:57 <Fixer> to translator@openttd.org
16:54:16 <planetmaker> yeah, that's the correct way. And when you can translate your language that obviously also worked
16:54:51 <Fixer> and i don't get an email ;(
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16:56:19 <Fixer> btw new rail list feature is cool
16:56:34 <planetmaker> it even works in 1.0.x ;-)
16:56:53 <Fixer> already tried it... really nice
16:57:15 * planetmaker also likes the industry chain view
16:57:24 <planetmaker> and the new NewGRF selection
16:57:46 <Terkhen> those are really nice
16:57:47 <planetmaker> and... the NewObjects and... and ... and :-)
16:57:48 <Fixer> but one question is what is the default value for popup help? it opens for too long (i set it to minimun value right now)
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16:58:17 <planetmaker> 2 is default afaik
16:58:24 <Terkhen> it opens for as long as you keep the mouse over the widget
16:58:35 <planetmaker> you don't want it to show always when you just try to click a button, do you?
16:58:54 <Fixer> no... but it feels slow :)
16:59:23 <planetmaker> then set it to 1 second or right click - though right click does not work in one or two exceptions - IIRC
16:59:24 <Terkhen> you can always disable it to show them with the right click as before
17:00:08 <Fixer> thanks... i was thinking that 0 is disabling
17:00:44 <Terkhen> after recent changes in the strings it should explicitly say what "disabled" does
17:01:17 <planetmaker> Fixer, fix the translation ;-)
17:01:31 <planetmaker> what Terkhen says.
17:02:14 <Terkhen> check both Untranslated Strings and Strings Needing Validation
17:07:06 <Fixer> 190 strings are needing validation
17:08:38 <maddy_> hi all, I'm trying to add the programmable signals patch manually, just wondering should I set the savegame version to something like 999? the original patch had incremented it by one
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17:35:40 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21883 /trunk/src/ (ground_vehicle.hpp roadveh.h train.h): -Codechange: make UpdateZPosition() faster by not calling GetSlopeZ() when not needed
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17:49:43 <maddy_> so can anyone tell me please? is it good idea to set save version to 999 if I add a patch (instead of increment by one, which would conflict when it's officially incremented by one in future)
17:52:54 <maddy_> either one will work tho? I'm not at all familiar with this
17:54:11 <maddy_> as in, if I play now with my custom savegame format, then it's changed in the future, will I be able to load my games if I update my source to the newer one
17:54:51 <planetmaker> it only matters for savegame compatibility. Maintaining savegame compatibility will require work on your part.
17:55:11 <planetmaker> look at src/saveload/saveload.cpp (IIRC)
17:55:21 <SpComb> but if trunk updates and bumps..
17:55:39 <planetmaker> that's the part where work is required ;-)
17:55:57 <SpComb> you'll have to bump and hack the saveload stuff because your savegame has a weird version
17:56:21 <planetmaker> if one wants to do that work, it might be more desirable to bump by a bit and then follow the trunk bumps
17:56:43 <maddy_> yeah, I'm assuming there will be a problem at some point, was just wondering if there was some "clean" way to do it
17:58:39 <glx> any trunk bump will probably break your saves if not patched correctly
17:59:15 <planetmaker> yeah. And as that is tedious work, usually not done (I know two PP only which did / do that).
17:59:44 <glx> and that was very hacky :)
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18:00:48 <maddy_> but if I always load my savegame with my custom client, will it still break when savegame format in trunk is changed (assuming I update from svn my client too)
18:01:16 <SpComb> your custom client will save the savegames with v=999
18:01:37 <maddy_> yes, but considering I don't use the 999, instead use the default, or increment by 1
18:01:44 <SpComb> then the updated trunk with v=151 will check for savegames with v=150, and do compat loading for them
18:01:55 <SpComb> you'd have to bump to v=1000 and s/150/999/
18:02:11 <planetmaker> maddy_, if you just change the savegame version number, you'll have lost your old savegame.
18:02:41 <glx> miniIN used +2 and special handling IIRC
18:04:29 <maddy_> so if I set my version to 158, then trunk bumps it to 158, I compile my client with the new version, can I load my save?
18:05:46 <SpComb> it'll have stuff in it that's different from what a trunk 158 save would have
18:06:24 <planetmaker> <maddy_> so if I set my version to 158, then trunk bumps it to 158, I compile my client with the new version, can I load my save? <-- no. Unless you add special code to take care of that
18:06:25 <SpComb> i.e. the 157 stuff, your patch stuff, and none of the 158 stuff
18:14:01 <maddy_> so in essence, it's hard to use patches on the code, while maintaining savegame compability with trunk
18:15:00 <SpComb> it's easy to have your patched build be able to load trunk savegames
18:15:05 <SpComb> that's what you usually get
18:15:28 <planetmaker> you get that for free if you patch properly actually
18:15:42 <planetmaker> older trunk saves than the revision which you patch.
18:15:49 <SpComb> but supporting both patched and updated trunk savegames is more involved
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18:16:17 <SpComb> since the savegame versioning is just a purely linear history
18:16:59 <SpComb> but it's possible with difficult to understand trickery that miniIN used :)
18:17:22 <Terkhen> back then I tried to understand it, but I ended up deciding it was not worth the effort
18:17:32 <Terkhen> I just started and finished all of my games with the same version
18:18:03 <maddy_> I guess one "simple" way would be to store the custom data in a separate file alltogether, and not in the official .save?
18:18:23 <glx> another option is to use a new chunk
18:19:05 <glx> but that can cause other problems I think
18:20:20 <maddy_> Terkhen: yeah I'll probably do that too
18:20:47 <Terkhen> it what requires less effort and it is not really an issue if your games are relatively short
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18:22:41 <maddy_> at least compiling openttd was easy, all needed files in handy openttd-useful.zip, so I'll have to at least thank the devs for that
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18:24:06 <SpComb> ideally the saveload mechanism would support some kind of nonlinear versioning
18:24:29 <SpComb> not sure if it would just be as simple as separate, named chunks for trunk's stuff and the patch's stuff, and then separate versions for each
18:24:44 <SpComb> patch code would handle the patch's chunk and trunk code would ignore it
18:25:53 <maddy_> yeah, I was thinking of something like that, and wondering if such a thing exists
18:26:00 <SpComb> but the patch's version would still have to be newer than the trunk's version
18:26:19 <SpComb> or something along those lines..
18:28:00 <dihedral> can the two "OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta4" threads be merged?
18:28:38 <Yexo> the older one would get the first post, and the older one is the unofficial post
18:30:15 <Yexo> I've now closed one with a reference to the other
18:30:29 <dihedral> oh - i thought they could be appended in an order you choose
18:31:13 <Yexo> no, the order depends on the time the posts were made
18:31:27 <dihedral> do you know mysql? :-D
18:32:02 <Yexo> yes, but I don't have access to the forum database ;)
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21884 /trunk/src/lang/ (bulgarian.txt greek.txt japanese.txt ukrainian.txt):
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: bulgarian - 19 changes by yxomo
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: greek - 15 changes by Gonik, fumantsu
18:45:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: japanese - 201 changes by kokubunzi, nex259
18:45:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: ukrainian - 100 changes by Fixer
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19:03:26 <maddy_> oh dear... I got my programmable signals patch added, and a clean compile, but the game crashes on startup
19:04:07 <Terkhen> MSVC should tell you the code line where it crashes
19:04:10 <dihedral> well then something went wrong ^^
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19:09:13 <Xaroth_> [00] openttd 0x004D8F17 TrainController + 1850 (g:\openttd_src\src\train_cmd.cpp:3224)
19:11:20 <maddy_> hmm...I didn't edit that file, but that line has to do with signals
19:11:47 <peter1138> uh... run it in the debugger?
19:16:27 <maddy_> found the problem, division by zero: _settings_game.pf.path_backoff_interval
19:17:30 <maddy_> I did add a new line to settings_type.h where that is defined, that has to be the prob
19:19:36 <Xaroth_> well, don't divide by zero, obviously
19:19:56 <maddy_> how do I add something to settings_type.h without breaking it?
19:19:57 <Xaroth_> there is no 'on error resume next' in C :)
19:20:26 <maddy_> I assume it's crashing on trying to load the title game
19:21:41 <frosch123> maddy_: likely you did not specify the savegame version, when you added the var
19:22:06 <frosch123> so you loaded something from the title-savegame which was not there, and everything behind got shifted
19:22:34 <maddy_> where do I specify the version for the new variable?
19:22:44 * andythenorth grumbles about so-called Virgin broadband
19:22:51 <frosch123> use the macros with COND
19:23:38 <frosch123> table/settings... whatever
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19:29:42 <Ammler> btw. what's the project name of OpenTTD 1.1?
19:31:06 <Zuu> Yea, is it yet another time, time to rename the project?
19:31:09 <planetmaker> you want us to assign it a 'codename'?
19:31:14 * Alberth thinks it is "OpenTTD 1.1"
19:31:31 <planetmaker> like OpenTTD 4-Waldstädter-See?
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19:34:29 <maddy_> got the game to run properly, programmed signals dont work yet tho :) maybe I'll debug tomorrow
19:54:07 <Terkhen> I suspect that a thread about that would get a lot of answers
20:00:04 <Alberth> I prefer to make patches instead
20:11:57 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I have been unifying further code between road vehicles and trains; my plan is to unify as much as possible before starting with rv-wagons
20:12:36 <Terkhen> now the road vehicles already have access to the functions that set the "wagon" subtype, of course they completely ignore it
20:15:15 <andythenorth> I should finish writing the mini-spec I started :o
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20:50:42 <DorpsGek> Yexo: 'Latest' is not a valid version
20:50:45 <DorpsGek> Yexo: Don't ask to ask, just ask
20:50:50 <planetmaker> someone broke the silence...
20:51:14 <Luddha> just downloaded ottd again after some years break
20:51:22 <Luddha> are you playing any fun game or something?
20:53:15 <dihedral> who in here actually plays?
20:57:18 * Alberth plays the 'change source code without crash' game
20:58:06 <Rubidium> just add some comments to the source code; usually works quite well with not adding new crashes
20:59:14 * Terkhen plays 'change the source code before dropping the performance to abysmal levels'
20:59:30 * andythenorth plays 'writing tickets is nearly the same as writing code'
20:59:35 <andythenorth> but tickets don't fail to compile :P
21:02:11 <dihedral> then we need a new ticket system
21:02:44 <Terkhen> and a ticket system for the ticket system
21:05:24 <dihedral> "please create the following ticket in the ticket system"
21:08:22 <andythenorth> write a ticket for that
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22:18:16 <SmatZ> not much :) quite nice evening here
22:19:08 <supermop> it is chilly but nice here
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22:28:51 <thomas001> hi can you recommend a good combination of ecs vectors?
22:29:55 <LordAro> all of them is generally a good idea
22:30:20 <George> thomas001: how large is your map?
22:30:26 <SmatZ> there are some rules in what order they should be loaded... it's described somewhere :)
22:30:38 <thomas001> George, i like to play 512x256
22:30:40 <andythenorth> try the newest beta versions...
22:30:55 <thomas001> andythenorth, i have ne newest versions available in bananas
22:31:13 <SmatZ> thomas001: or try FIRS :)
22:31:18 <George> thomas001: Amount of water?
22:31:23 <andythenorth> George released new vectors somewhere recently
22:31:25 <thomas001> George, uhm...standard
22:31:53 <thomas001> most vectors are labeled dec 2010 or jan 2011
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22:33:04 <George> amount of town/industries?
22:34:55 <George> SmatZ: I mean in case of mountains, large number of lakes and industries map generator would make a mess of industries
22:34:56 <thomas001> normal towns, hight industry, but i can also change this ;)
22:35:11 <thomas001> i just search for settings fun to play
22:35:19 <SmatZ> (just to explain... andythenorth is author of FIRS, George is author of ECS)
22:35:46 <SmatZ> George: sure :) I was just smiling because I was happy how you care about users of your newgrf :)
22:36:12 <George> For this map size (512x256) and high number of industries there would be too much industries
22:36:50 <George> You can change number of indutries on the map, and in this case you would have less but different industries
22:37:10 <thomas001> okay i will try that
22:37:21 <George> or you can reduce the number of vectors and would get more similar industries on the map
22:37:29 <George> the second is easier to play
22:38:39 <George> If you want an easier game I'd suggest not to use machinery and wood vector
22:39:08 <George> But if you like the game to be difficult - all vectors are your choise
22:39:45 <thomas001> hmm i will keep that in mind, thank you :)
22:39:57 <thomas001> or i will try firs..never heard of that before
22:40:51 <George> I heard there were balancing changings in the recent FIRS
22:41:18 <andythenorth> there have been quite a few :)
22:41:21 <George> andythenorth, correct me if I'm wrong
22:41:53 <andythenorth> there will be some more changes in 0.6 but not many
22:42:02 <thomas001> uhhm there are *a lot* industries in firs
22:42:24 <thomas001> any flow diagram what to deliver where? ;)
22:42:24 <andythenorth> there will in future be an option to have fewer
22:42:35 <Terkhen> use the industry chain window
22:42:49 <andythenorth> is that in stable releases?
22:45:09 <thomas001> Terkhen, where is it? just searched all menus...sorry
22:45:29 <SmatZ> thomas001: open industry window, click "display chain"
22:45:31 <Terkhen> thomas001: it is only present if you are playing with the beta or a nightly
22:45:54 * dihedral has run into some complication with grapes :-(
22:47:00 *** SmatZ changes topic to "1.0.5, 1.1.0-beta4 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | 'Latest' is not a valid version | English only"
22:47:26 <Rubidium> maybe you should attack the problem from a different angle
22:47:34 <andythenorth> dihedral: uncomplicate it with grapes: drink more wine
22:49:35 <dihedral> Rubidium, yes, another angle is what i try to look for :-)
22:49:43 <dihedral> or rather anything :-P
22:50:16 <andythenorth> my server seems a bit slow today though :o
22:50:24 <andythenorth> pages aren't loading for me
22:50:27 <Rubidium> dihedral: try to explain the problem or rather the thing you're trying to do
22:51:08 <thomas001> okay i'll try to set up a fun new game, thank you all :)
22:51:58 <dihedral> it's the problem of handling chat messages
22:52:18 <dihedral> they origniate somwhere (irc, openttd)
22:52:34 <dihedral> they come from a user (i'll need a generic user object)
22:52:57 <dihedral> in irc (and relevant for a reply) there is a channel involved regarding public chat
22:53:44 <dihedral> irc and openttd also provide different information about a user, trying to turn that into a genetic something is not my strength :-P
22:54:03 <Rubidium> maybe some URI thing?
22:54:23 <Rubidium> irc://Rubidium@irc.oftc.net/#openttd
22:54:39 <Rubidium> openttd://Rubidium@someserver/all
22:54:44 <Rubidium> openttd://Rubidium@someserver/company#0
22:56:04 <dihedral> i was thinking of a user object which reflects name, login, user, host / ip
22:56:43 <dihedral> regarding the source of a message i am more stuck
22:56:58 <dihedral> there needs to be a way to generically define how to reply, chat public and private
22:57:02 <Rubidium> that could get the same thing as the destination
22:57:25 <dihedral> as the information needed is not always the same
22:57:40 <dihedral> irc needs a channel and a string for the public chat, openttd needs just the string
22:58:13 <dihedral> private chat - irc needs a nick, openttd an id - that can be handled with the user object
22:58:49 <Rubidium> dihedral: see the public OpenTTD chat as a channel
22:59:02 <Rubidium> dihedral: see private chats as channels
22:59:46 <Rubidium> see the user id for private chats as a channel, just toString the id
23:01:06 <dihedral> i am considering a MessageProvider, one for OpenTTD one for IRC
23:01:23 <dihedral> the MessageProvider would define the methods both must implement
23:13:11 <dihedral> i do not know how many approaches i've already had :-P
23:16:04 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r21885 /trunk/src/ (newgrf_text.cpp strings.cpp table/control_codes.h): -Fix [FS#4422]: NewGRF string codes 0x80 and 0x81 were broken since the typechecking of string parameters
23:16:32 <dihedral> thanks for your input Rubidium
23:24:44 <Luddha> is there any way to stop someone elses train?
23:30:46 <DJNekkid> * 0 00 10 \b16 01 DFLT_E_80 // action0, for rails, numprops, numrails, ID
23:30:55 <DJNekkid> what byte is \w80 here?
23:31:55 <DJNekkid> (DFLT_E_80 is actually placeheld for \b0)
23:33:42 <DJNekkid> hmm, apparently is it 6
23:34:37 <Rubidium> 00 01 02; 00 is the first byte, but at offset 0
23:35:36 <DJNekkid> whatever actuion6's count :P
23:36:33 <Rubidium> in any case... I hope my bed is warm
23:36:35 <DJNekkid> adding adjustable speeds via action14 to nutracks :)
23:36:58 <DJNekkid> unless you have a woman there (as i assume you prefer thoose), i doubt it :) but GN :)
23:37:11 <DJNekkid> im gonna finish this, and im off as well :)
continue to next day ⏵
