IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-17
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04:36:35 <bb10> how does the admin interface work?
05:02:45 <Eddi|zuHause> by connecting a bot or library to it that can issue commands like you would through the server console or rcon
05:09:14 <bb10> is there any documentation on how to do that? :P
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06:06:14 <jjc> I have a question about openttd and Apple devices
06:09:29 <jjc> Never Mind about that question
06:33:41 <Rubidium> bb10: docs/admin_network.txt?
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06:48:27 <bb10> Rubidium: sounds like something a programmer would use
06:50:45 <Rubidium> well yeah, the tools interfacing with that are still in development I think
06:52:58 <bb10> anything useable yet (alpha/beta)?
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09:42:07 <peter1138> stupid xorg... eating 25% cpu when i'm doing nothing :S
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09:53:33 <__ln__> "the group of isles offshore belgium"
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11:22:56 <kamnet> Can you code the 1x1 heliport as either 2x1/1x2 or as 2x2?
11:24:44 <planetmaker> yes and no. see my tt-forums reply
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11:41:52 <Wolf01> hello roboboy, what's the situation there?
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13:09:59 <kamnet> To change the size of the heliport all I have to do is define it in ysize and xsize, right/
13:12:54 <Ammler> kamnet: you should check the airport plus example from yexo, maybe it gives some hints
13:13:38 <Yexo> kamnet: you can't directly change the size of an airport, you can only do so by providing a new tile layout
13:13:43 <Ammler> I don't think you chan change the heliport from 1x1 to 2x1 by resizing the sprites only :-)
13:14:29 <planetmaker> that's what I unsuccessfully tried to tell ;-)
13:14:55 <planetmaker> and it proved not too easy to provide an alternate rotated layout for the small airport.
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13:38:40 <kamnet> where is that example at?
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14:18:37 <Belugas> hello sir planetmaker
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14:26:17 <kamnet> Well apparently a) I can't read NML yet and b) Yexo ain't worked on heliport sprites, so I'm lost on how to possibly change the size :-)
14:27:01 <planetmaker> kamnet, you 'just' have to define a layout. Look at the small airport. There's a tile layout of it defined with all the tiles it comprises of
14:27:28 <planetmaker> you need to define a layout which has two tiles size.
14:28:26 <planetmaker> basically use as substitute type the heliport you want to re-define. And then attach your (new) layout to it.
14:29:27 <planetmaker> if nfo is more comfortable the same could be done in nfo, too ;-)
14:30:35 <Yexo> there are also nfo examples in the same repository
14:30:47 <Yexo> you'll need to check the property numbers in those, they might be out-of-date
14:41:45 <kamnet> "Best Available TTDPatch Airport Type", I'm assuming I want type 3 (oilrig) if I want it to appear up off the ground, yes?
14:43:46 <Eddi|zuHause> that sounds very wrong
14:44:12 <Yexo> the value has no influence on the game, it's only for compatibility with vehicle newgrfs
14:44:27 <Yexo> so don't use "oilrig" as type for things on land, "heliport" is a better choice
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15:19:19 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... did they break youtube-dl again?
15:19:39 <Eddi|zuHause> ahm no... "Dieses Video enthält Content von UMG. Es ist in deinem Land nicht verfügbar."
15:22:01 <planetmaker> __ln__, your mac is a ppc one, right?
15:22:56 <kamnet> Hrm. Apparently nforenum doesn't think my nfo file is an nfo file
15:23:16 <Eddi|zuHause> kamnet: must start with the // headers
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15:31:02 <planetmaker> that's pikka's set ;-)
15:32:09 <planetmaker> and tbh: the whole topic is a bit ridiculous.
15:34:27 <planetmaker> I think someone donate me a ppc box or I skip supporting it ;-)
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15:35:55 <kamnet> Huh, I always thought it was yours. Well nevermind then.
15:35:58 <planetmaker> oh, time for optical ear plugs in the nick list again.
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15:46:41 * DanMacK responded to that message
15:52:59 * DanMacK doesn't find NARS running costs extrordinarily high...
15:53:06 <dihedral> <planetmaker> oh, time for optical ear plugs in the nick list again. <- LOL
15:53:58 <kamnet> gah. nfo driving me crazy
15:59:31 <planetmaker> kamnet, that's why I suggested to try the airports in NML ;-)
15:59:51 <planetmaker> you a) have an example (somewhat) and b) it's much nicer readable (IMHO)
16:00:39 <kamnet> except I still don't understand what I'm reading in NML
16:04:11 * planetmaker can't give advice on NFO
16:05:04 <dihedral> but can NFO give advice on planetmaker ?
16:05:33 <peter1138> hmm, how costly is 1 sqrt() compared to n multiplications, where n is usually < 100?
16:05:38 <planetmaker> of course it can. It can try and fail ;-)
16:06:35 <kamnet> WOOT! I managed to makea newgrf which crashes ottd!
16:09:16 <planetmaker> peter1138, so it depends, but assuming it uses the same multiplication algorithm: the same as one multiplication
16:16:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i wouldn't imagine sqrt being expensive at all
16:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: the table above lists it as same complexity (i.e. only differing by constant factor)
16:22:01 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: although i don't see how they calculate that, using a simple approximation of heron's method (iterating x = (x+a/x)/2)) gives significantly less than 100 multiplications
16:22:33 <Eddi|zuHause> each iteration step is one multiplication
16:22:42 <Eddi|zuHause> and it has quadratic convergence
16:22:55 <peter1138> how does that related to my question? :)
16:23:20 <planetmaker> for 16 digits precision you need 4 multiplications
16:23:40 <planetmaker> well... somewhat going by quadratic convergence
16:23:41 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: yeah, but that makes it log(n)*M(n)
16:23:43 <michi_cc> peter1138: For a Core 2 CPU multiplication is 1-2 cycles (depending on FPU/SSE) and sqrt is 6-69 (depending on number) under the assumption of proper inlining of the compiler
16:24:31 <peter1138> that's more like it :)
16:25:31 <michi_cc> sqrt on AMD CPUs has a lower upper bound generally, but a higher lower bound
16:27:12 <Eddi|zuHause> peter1138: what i'm trying to say was: "it's probably less expensive"
16:27:31 <Eddi|zuHause> i mean "1 sqrt is less expensive than 100 multiplications"
16:31:37 <peter1138> basically it doesn't matter
16:31:43 <peter1138> so i don't care now. but thanks :)
16:33:04 <peter1138> i guess the case that makes sense to change is where you can do 1 * instead of 1 sqrt
16:34:47 <peter1138> actually worse than that. duh.
16:34:56 <peter1138> in this case i can do 1 * instead of n sqrt :S
16:35:00 <peter1138> that's just poor, hehe
16:35:15 <michi_cc> Estimating a proper cutoff is difficult if you're not fixed on a specific CPU, but I'd say up to 10 muls is probably faster than one sqrt
16:37:20 <peter1138> in one case, drawing a sphere in 3d. tests n * n * n locations, with a sqrt() at each. or i just do one r*r at the start... yes...
16:39:14 <peter1138> hmm... atan2(dy, sqrtf(dx * dx + dz * dz)) -> atan2(dy * dy, dx * dx + dz * dz) ?
16:41:39 <michi_cc> Only if you don't care about correctness ;)
16:42:32 <Hirundo> Is dy always positive?
16:43:23 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21828 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Document [FS#4415]: that the station build date is the date of the last construction action
16:47:08 <Rubidium> so the next time it gets reported we can just close it right away without explanation
16:48:54 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: shows what kind of crap people can come up with when they just want to file as many bug reports as they can
16:49:23 <Rubidium> 4413-4416 by one person in 2 minutes
16:50:44 <peter1138> that was weird, doing some benchmarking, got 4.5 seconds each time, unless i switched screen to another window. then i got 8.5 seconds
16:51:16 <peter1138> pretty sure it was just a coincidence on what else the system was doing though :)
16:53:17 <peter1138> (incidentally the non-sqrt version of the sphere code is about 4-5 * faster)
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17:04:27 <dihedral> Rubidium, george? :-P
17:09:11 <Rubidium> oh, you were telling me that I should go make myself some dinner, right?
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17:09:24 <planetmaker> make me some, too?
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17:09:30 <planetmaker> I'm hungry but not yet home :-(
17:10:00 <planetmaker> dihedral, you got a ppc mac?
17:10:12 <Rubidium> planetmaker: then you have to come and get it by car
17:10:55 <Rubidium> otherwise it'd be breakfast
17:11:56 <planetmaker> or __ln__ could test that, too ;-) ^
17:12:11 <planetmaker> Hm... sounds... lengthy
17:13:00 <__ln__> ok, i'll try once i get home
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17:19:23 <peter1138> hmm, the sqrtf is of course dwarfed by the atan2
17:34:14 <torkil> Anyone know about a stats generator for openttd? I want to set up a website that displays stats from our dedicated server.
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17:58:30 <torkil> Ammler: Yes, perhaps something a bit more visually pleasing? :)
18:00:10 <torkil> Would be neat to see company stats, performance statistics etc
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18:07:58 <dihedral> planetmaker, getting to it :-)
18:12:07 * ZirconiumX is extremely happy
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18:16:04 <dihedral> planetmaker, i cannot exactly call it a crash :-D
18:16:32 <dihedral> more like some endless loop
18:21:08 <planetmaker> he, interesting, dihedral
18:21:21 <dihedral> trying to find the last working version now :-)
18:21:36 <planetmaker> oh, that'll be helpful :-)
18:25:22 <dihedral> i have not downloaded that many openttd builds in a long time :-D
18:25:44 <__ln__> "the game crashes (screen freezes)" says the bug report
18:26:27 <dihedral> screen freezes can mean many things, but yes
18:26:40 <dihedral> + cpu usage goes up high
18:27:20 <dihedral> 21699 works fine ;-)
18:27:33 <frosch123> someone remembers which scenario on bananas is the broken one with no available engines?
18:28:24 <__ln__> dihedral: so what actually doesn't work?
18:28:44 <__ln__> dihedral: but what revision
18:28:47 <Terkhen> dihedral: we suspect it is related to the "show owner legend feature"
18:29:01 <dihedral> 21766 is the one i know if, i am trying to find the first broken build
18:29:35 <dihedral> Terkhen, you could have told me earlier :-P
18:29:40 <Terkhen> if our suspicion is right, the first revision affected is probably r21718
18:29:48 <Terkhen> sorry, I was not here :)
18:31:55 <dihedral> by the way - i can get hold of a rack of dual g4 xserve servers :-)
18:32:00 <dihedral> anybody interested :-P
18:33:24 <dihedral> 21735 fails, just grabbing 21713
18:33:31 <dihedral> which should confirm what you said, Terkhen
18:34:48 <Terkhen> thanks for checking that :)
18:35:06 <Terkhen> I'm working on a possible fix currently, I'll tell you once it's done so we can test if it works
18:36:38 <dihedral> though how come it only shows on ppc
18:37:23 <dihedral> yes is not a valid answer :-P
18:37:29 <planetmaker> I'm interested ;-)
18:37:36 <dihedral> and i only see one loop
18:38:00 * dihedral starts compiling exact revisions
18:38:05 <Terkhen> hmm... do you know which loop is not finishing?
18:39:03 <dihedral> like i said, i only see one in 21718's commit
18:43:43 <dihedral> if i knew how to create a complete test of openttd on my mac, i'd set it up to paste bugreports automatically :-P
18:43:52 <LordAro> frosch123: can't remember exactly but it's version (or at end of name string) is 2.1.5...
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18:45:11 <dihedral> wow this mac is slow
18:45:24 <dihedral> forgot it takes 20+ mins to compile openttd
18:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21829 /trunk/src/lang/ (15 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 4 changes by KorneySan
18:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: croatian - 2 changes by VoyagerOne
18:46:05 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 1 changes by CrazyBenny
18:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 4 changes by habell
18:46:07 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:46:27 <__ln__> the main goal of the project should really be optimizing for compile-time on mac.
18:47:11 <LordAro> frosch123: are you going to remove it, something?
18:47:22 <__ln__> luxuries... 1.33 GHz here.
18:48:26 <dihedral> personally i'd vote for ditching ppc support :-P
18:49:08 <__ln__> dihedral: why? i've understood that ppc support was never the problem with mac builds.
18:49:21 <Rubidium> ppc support isn't hard, you just need the appropriate hardware on an emulator
18:49:57 <dihedral> it's not hard, but it still requires investing time
18:50:12 <Rubidium> but then just ditch supporting OSX ;)
18:50:26 <Rubidium> that frees way more time
18:50:31 <__ln__> dihedral: ditching ppc is virtually the same as ditching big-endian support.
18:50:33 <dihedral> but then planetmaker is obsolete :-P
18:51:12 <Rubidium> maybe planetmaker is interested in some physical ppc hardware to test OSX on
18:51:22 <dihedral> __ln__, with the difference of one LE arch and 10 BE
18:51:26 <planetmaker> let's actually see what my ppc build does. Yes, planetmaker IS interested in it.
18:51:40 * planetmaker certainly could put it to use
18:51:44 <dihedral> i am not using mine :-)
18:51:50 <ZirconiumX> dihedral, __ln__, both *real* luxuries - 1Ghz - and my old comp was 600Mhz
18:51:56 <dihedral> only for debugging openttd
18:52:18 <dihedral> planetmaker, want an xserve?
18:52:19 <planetmaker> I don't mind so much the speed. I can compile on this machine ;-)
18:52:37 <dihedral> if you want i'll find out how much one goes for
18:52:46 <dihedral> i'll probably be able to push it quite low
18:54:07 <planetmaker> But I don't really want to spend personal money on that ;-)
18:55:12 <Terkhen> we should have a "buy planetmaker a ppc" fundraiser then
18:55:20 <planetmaker> well. e-bay has a lot of g4 stuff for in the range of 100 ... 300 € or so
18:55:43 <Terkhen> a "buy Terkhen a new laptop" fundraiser would be nice too
18:55:53 <ZirconiumX> How fast - my good friend?
18:55:59 <Terkhen> but that might be even less related to OpenTTD :P
18:56:03 <planetmaker> but someone with a spare g4 could well support OpenTTD by sending it to me.
18:56:05 <__ln__> a "buy a new Bjarni" fundraiser
18:56:15 <planetmaker> hehe @ Terkhen :-)
18:56:49 <__ln__> planetmaker: i think that's the kind of request that could be written on openttd.org main page, and somebody could even react.
18:57:07 <planetmaker> __ln__: IMHO the patch sequence which breaks your mouse cursor is a good move :-P
18:57:40 * ZirconiumX donates £1 to PM's fund and to Terkhen's fund
18:57:58 <planetmaker> it cleans up a lot ;-) - but you're right, __ln__ - putting it there might make sense
18:58:02 <dihedral> if i give you my laptop, do i get the one pound?
18:58:27 <dihedral> if you put it in there, if someone donates a laptop, openttd owns something
18:58:29 <planetmaker> depends: is it in working order?
18:58:39 <dihedral> i am at it right now
18:58:40 <__ln__> G4 is becoming something that people may have lying around with no purpose.
18:58:49 <ZirconiumX> starting bid £0.99
18:59:52 <__ln__> dihedral: obviously you are currently using it to debug openttd, that's a purpose. even *the* purpose.
19:00:03 <dihedral> planetmaker, problem though, dvd drive is slightly hard to get a dvd out of - a knife helps though :-D
19:00:24 <dihedral> + it has about 2 to 3 pixel rows on the left hand side that are broken
19:00:26 <planetmaker> well... not a problem if it has a running system. Rest goes via network.
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19:02:21 <planetmaker> might suffice for testing purposes
19:02:32 <dihedral> that's what i am using it for :-P
19:02:50 <dihedral> but like what ... once a year? :-D
19:07:06 <dihedral> r21718 does crash, but it does not freeze like the other builds i looked at
19:09:02 <__ln__> after several continues + breaks + backtraces, GetStringBoundingBox() is the one that it wouldn't seem to exit.
19:11:54 * __ln__ recompiling with --enable-debug=3
19:13:34 <planetmaker> hm, the ppc binary also hangs on my machine.
19:14:53 <__ln__> Terkhen: i'll tell you in ~20 minutes
19:15:07 <dihedral> i was just about to do the same
19:15:14 <dihedral> so i can get supper :-D
19:16:21 <Terkhen> thank frosch123 for finding this :P
19:17:01 <dihedral> thanks __ln__ and dihedral - oh, you're welcome :-P
19:17:19 <planetmaker> thank you frosch123 __ln__ and dihedral :-)
19:17:57 <dihedral> ah, that's nothing, you are of course welcome, anytime, just give us a shout ... :-D
19:19:16 <planetmaker> hm... but *why* does that patch work?
19:19:48 <Terkhen> it seems that only the first member of an union is initialized by the macros
19:20:01 <Terkhen> what I don't know is why it worked at all before this patch
19:20:49 <planetmaker> hm, shouldn't it then (also) work to explicitly initalize the other two?
19:20:54 <Terkhen> I did, but I'm starting to doubt the quality of my testing :P
19:21:17 <Terkhen> planetmaker: how? in a static array you can _only_ initialize the first value
19:21:50 <planetmaker> only they are big endian
19:22:02 <planetmaker> intel macs work fine (at least here)
19:22:39 <dihedral> endianess with an initialization issue?
19:22:45 <dihedral> sure it's not just 10.4?
19:23:10 <planetmaker> dihedral: I compile (nearly) always against the 10.4 SDK...
19:23:37 <planetmaker> and the ppc binary hangs here w/o the patch and does not with. So... it's quite a strong indicator, I think
19:24:27 <frosch123> dihedral: a union of uint8 and uint32 is supposed to fail on big endian
19:25:30 <frosch123> the default initialiser can only initialise the first member, which is uint32 in this case
19:25:58 <frosch123> thus on little endian it can be used to initialise the uint8 just as well, but big endian fails
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19:36:51 <planetmaker> hello andythenorth
19:40:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21830 /trunk/src/smallmap_gui.cpp: -Fix: Deunionize a union which was not initialized correctly.
19:41:45 <__ln__> Terkhen: sí, no se congela más en PPC.
19:41:57 <Terkhen> perfecto __ln__, muchas gracias :)
19:42:52 * Terkhen learned a lot of random facts about unions today
19:43:06 <Terkhen> enough facts to avoid their use unless necessary
19:43:53 <planetmaker> quite indeed. same here
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19:47:35 <fonsinchen> probably the Mac OS compiler at some point decided that enums should be mapped to 32 bits instead of 8 bits, even if the max value is 255 (i.e. Owner or CompanyID).
19:48:00 <fonsinchen> This probably created the "hole" in the union.
19:50:00 <planetmaker> fonsinchen: read above. It's a big endian problem only.
19:50:22 <planetmaker> and will fail on any big endian, if I understand that correctly
19:50:58 <fonsinchen> yes, I was just wondering why it worked on my PPC half a year ago.
19:51:10 <planetmaker> then the union wasn't there
19:53:04 <fonsinchen> It was introduced on May 7th
19:53:21 <fonsinchen> ok, maybe that was after my test.
19:53:31 <dihedral> why would you use unions anyway?
19:54:22 <fonsinchen> not much, in that case. About 2 bytes per legend item
19:54:35 <dihedral> if each tile in the map array uses a union, i could probably understand, but we do live in the time where a few GB of RAM is quite common :_P
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20:13:41 <Terkhen> in this case the benefit is negligible
20:25:35 <Rubidium> dihedral: how's splitting that patch going?
20:26:06 <dihedral> how much time can you give me?
20:26:16 <dihedral> i.e. do i get the next weekend? or not :-P
20:26:42 <Rubidium> not if you want it to be in beta4 ;)
20:26:57 <dihedral> when do you want to release that?
20:27:02 <dihedral> tomorrow or the day after
20:27:04 <Rubidium> but branching will probably be mid february
20:27:34 <dihedral> might bbe able to finish it up tomorrow evening
20:28:13 <Rubidium> only if you really really want it to be in beta4 ;)
20:28:31 <Rubidium> instead of beta5 or rc1 or something like that
20:28:56 <dihedral> i'll do my very best :-)
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21:06:26 <__ln__> dihedral: do you also see two mouse cursors in trunk in windowed mode?
21:06:58 <dihedral> i just don't think i should bother
21:07:12 <__ln__> dihedral: good, then i'm not alone
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21:28:48 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: when pressing "deselect all" in the linkview you "unselect" the saturation legenda as well
21:32:59 <fonsinchen> Oh. Thanks, I'll have a look.
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22:01:45 <z-MaTRiX_nonidentified> This is Eternity
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22:09:49 *** Eddi|zuHause2 is now known as Eddi|zuHause
22:44:17 <Fixer> I see some weird behavior in the GRF options menu - i got ?????? in preset dropdown menu instead of cyrillic text
22:44:45 <Fixer> which was saved earlier (since 1.0*)
22:45:31 <Rubidium> that sounds like your current font doesn't understand cyrillic
22:45:50 <Rubidium> or something messed with the encoding of the configuration file
22:51:31 <Fixer> early text of presets in config was in another codepage, now openttd saves in utf8 / unicode
22:51:44 <Fixer> so i just edited my config and it is ok now
22:54:29 <Rubidium> odd thing is that OpenTTD works internally (and thus in openttd.cfg) with utf8 since 2006 and presets were only added in 2009
22:54:54 <Rubidium> so it's not like OpenTTD changed the encoding of the file in the last 4 years
22:55:41 <Fixer> maybe because i use another font?
22:56:06 <Fixer> i changed it since some 1.0* release
22:56:19 <Fixer> was too small for my eyes
22:56:49 <Rubidium> so you opened the configuration file in some text editor, edited it and saved it
22:57:24 <Rubidium> which is a perfectly good way to get the encoding of the configuration file ruined (if the editor is incorrectly configured for utf-8 files)
22:58:38 <Fixer> maybe it was notepad %) or scite
23:22:59 <Eddi|zuHause> this wouldn't have happened if we had a font picker ingame.
23:23:51 <Xaroth> Eddi|zuHause is making one I take it? :P
23:24:25 <Eddi|zuHause> actually, i think there was a patch for it, but it had some problems
23:42:42 *** supermop has joined #openttd
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