IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-13
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01:49:58 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not sure why, but i have some kind of problem with the abbreviation "NADP"
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09:38:10 <kamnet> Good morning... I spoted a small error in opengfx+ landscape r19
09:43:29 <kamnet> Although it looks like it only appears on a map that was created using an earlier version of ChillCore's patchpack.
09:45:20 <kamnet> Oops, nevermind, its' a heightmap, not a scenario... hmmm.. I'll go bug ChillCore about it :D
09:47:47 <planetmaker> well. If you spot a bug, it'd be nice to report it in the appropriate bug tracker. I'll forget, if it's just in IRC ;-)
09:49:40 <Rubidium> planetmaker: it's go in the bug tracker that's known as t=47622
09:51:47 <planetmaker> I'm afraid that is at the moment too far fetched to get the joke ;-)
09:52:15 <planetmaker> *too far fetched for me
09:52:47 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that 50+ page thread with bug reports about Chill's PP
09:53:10 <Rubidium> although it seems to be the new "MiniIN" when looking at its longevity
09:53:37 <kamnet> has there been a report about sprites on the edges of the seas changing when gridlines are disabled?
09:54:09 <Rubidium> in that thread? Or in general? (In either case I can't remember it)
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09:54:58 <kamnet> Well it's only happening when I use this specific heightmap. If I start a new game and the game generates the land on it's own, no issues. I'm thinking better to start with chill?
09:56:33 <Rubidium> given Chill's PP has a new height level thing I guess it might very well be related with that
09:57:25 <planetmaker> t as in topic ;-)
09:58:58 <Rubidium> it looks fine with clean trunk at all edges on a generate map
10:06:55 <kamnet> Yeah I bugged him aboutit :D
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10:12:06 <planetmaker> well, did you test the steep slopes also in trunk with that newgrf, kamnet ?
10:14:24 <Rubidium> it's borked in trunk as well
10:15:04 <planetmaker> but I can't test now
10:15:34 <Rubidium> sprites "5908 / 5909" need Y-offset -8 instead of 0
10:17:20 <planetmaker> besides missing no-grid support for roads and tracks, I guess there's a reason it's still only available as nightlies ;-)
10:17:30 <Rubidium> got to hate those dudes that added the sprite aligner and sprite picker ;)
10:18:09 <planetmaker> yeah. really. Quite evil guys.
10:20:05 <planetmaker> It didn't seem to show obviously when I tested, it seems ;-)
10:22:48 <kamnet> No, I didn't see it with steep slopes.
10:23:40 <kamnet> What kinda landscape goodies are you looking for, by the way?
10:24:35 <planetmaker> hm? you mean in general?
10:25:20 <planetmaker> well... I've only a fuzzy idea ;-) - I'd add andy's wind mill as a first object for eye candy reasons
10:25:41 <dihedral> is there a picture of that?
10:27:17 <planetmaker> yeah, I think this landscape newgrf could contain also objects - as they're part of the landscape
10:27:30 <planetmaker> and it could possibly contain maybe a few (more) stones.
10:28:25 <kamnet> Wally said he was working on some. I thought about making some more stones myself. Apparently we all have rocks on the brains...
10:29:45 <dihedral> that is some very nice art :-)
10:29:55 <planetmaker> Might as well add some harbour graphics or... dunno. Observation tower. Things like these.
10:34:08 <kamnet> Can we use the water/land edge tiles to build along the rivers to make them look nicer than flat, square edges?
11:13:01 <kamnet> Oh, wait. THOSE steep slopes. Sorry, I didn't even notice that they were steepslopes. :P
11:13:10 <kamnet> I should be sleeping right now, but I'm not haha
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11:39:04 <planetmaker> kamnet: you might want to try the nightly of ogfx+landscape which will be compiled later today (in about 6 hours)
11:39:08 <peter1138> awww, i missed 11:38 o'clock :(
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11:56:25 <Mazur> A series of Dutch windmill types (grain/wood/water, etc.) might be pretty.
12:00:17 <Mazur> And a spanish mill, under that name, so that people learn not to use those in movies, etc., when they try and portray Dutch landscapes.
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12:54:35 <dihedral> you probably want one of those machines, ey?
12:58:07 <V453000> thats ... interesting :D how does that work?
12:58:33 <planetmaker> sort-of one-way valve bottom
12:59:05 <planetmaker> and a hydrostatic gauge
12:59:18 <V453000> I guess SmatZ would need such thing so he doesnt spend more time with opening beer than drinking it
12:59:57 <Rubidium> just drink it directly from the barrel
13:00:58 <planetmaker> I still vividly remember SmatZ' eyes when I told him to take along the (small) spare barrel from the r20k party :-P
13:01:35 <planetmaker> sometimes the small joys are the best :-)
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13:06:17 <andythenorth> might turn disasters back on if that existed
13:06:27 <andythenorth> it would need an avalanche version though
13:06:38 <SmatZ> planetmaker: yeah, that was a great present, thank you again :-)
13:07:29 <planetmaker> it was (and would be again) the best I can do with it :-)
13:09:18 <V453000> pm: SMALL joys? :D :P
13:09:51 <V453000> having SmatZ get beer is not a small joy :)
13:11:47 <planetmaker> you make him sound like a drunkard - which is not my impression :-)
13:11:53 <Ammler> SmatZ: you need also to thank us, that we drunk so few beers in the party itself so that barrel wasn't needed :-P
13:14:20 <dihedral> andythenorth, that is a nice disaster :-)
13:14:42 <dihedral> can disasters not be passed on to grfs?
13:14:55 <dihedral> so that a grf could introduce a disaster
13:15:33 <planetmaker> that's the idea. But someone needs to write a newgrf disaster framework. Best coupled to the console so that they can even be triggered externally
13:15:52 <planetmaker> (if they have an appropriate flag set, maybe)
13:16:26 <dihedral> framework is hard :-P
13:16:45 <dihedral> however, you could hand it over to an ai
13:16:52 <planetmaker> it first would need a decent concept
13:17:15 <planetmaker> nah, the AI should not be abused to that end. Rather an admin bot ;-)
13:17:26 <planetmaker> which then would be called 'scenario bot' or so
13:17:33 <dihedral> less admin bot as that is only available to a server
13:17:49 <dihedral> and the desaster ai could merely be a 'type' of ai
13:18:04 <dihedral> use parts of the framework
13:18:42 <planetmaker> I'd not call it AI. That sounds wrong ;-)
13:18:57 <planetmaker> but it might be semantics
13:27:32 <dihedral> the advantage could be that such an disaster squirrel script would not be required to be present when loading a save
13:27:45 <dihedral> but i am not sure that would be desired
13:28:27 <Eddi|zuHause> i like the idea of a "scenario script"
13:28:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but squirrel based would probably make more sense than grf based
13:29:09 <planetmaker> well. both probably :-)
13:29:37 <planetmaker> The grf defines the disasters. The script can define when and where they happen
13:29:46 <planetmaker> To me it's a bit like two parts of the same problem
13:30:15 <planetmaker> a squirrel script cannot define the telepathic alien invader ufo, it needs a newgrf.
13:30:27 <planetmaker> But the script could tell it where to go and how many people to take from the town
13:30:38 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but the immediate use of a "scenario script" is not only triggering disasters, but also things like tutorials and goal frameworks
13:31:05 <planetmaker> goal framework is again, broader than scenario script ;-)
13:31:11 <planetmaker> But that's why I say: it's two things
13:31:43 <Eddi|zuHause> hm, i don't think it's much broader. it repeatedly checks conditions like company value, and then triggers a victory screen
13:31:59 <Eddi|zuHause> as in a dialog window...
13:32:09 <planetmaker> yeah, I guess it depends how one sees 'scenario script'
13:32:49 <planetmaker> and we all seem to agree in the larger, fuzzily defined goal ;-)
13:49:13 <SmatZ> maybe it was scanned long time ago
13:53:37 <andythenorth> goal framework is barely larger than scenario script
13:54:25 <andythenorth> but the 'barely' could be troublesome :P
13:54:32 <andythenorth> e.g. does it get control over economy?
13:54:37 <andythenorth> over vehicle intro dates?
13:54:45 <andythenorth> over industry open / close
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14:19:25 <frosch123> what? steam and double stack wagons?
14:20:46 <frosch123> i thought buildnig such coaches would be far more modern
14:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the first such wagons were pre-WWII, but only few models for the private railway "Lübeck-Büchener-Eisenbahn (LBE)", produced in Görlitz. the next series was for east german railways only, where they were continuously further developed. west germany only got the models after 1990, except the few LBE wagons.
14:45:15 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: what's particularly interesting about the LBE is that they used these wagons for push-pull service with steam engines already 1936
14:46:38 <frosch123> isn't it more interesting, why they are not used in the west later on?
14:47:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: the wikipedia article said something about 6 further prototypes in the west, but they weren't picked up for series production
14:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe licensing the production schemes from the Görlitz factory wasn't politically wanted...
14:48:19 <frosch123> yeah, but there is no hint like, adenauer banged his head at the low ceiling, so they were dropped for regular service
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14:59:54 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought even ttdp only loaded grf version >= 2
14:59:54 <frosch123> i guess they thought "grf version" means version of their grf
15:00:17 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: the problem is, ottd does not do any checking of the version at all
15:00:27 <frosch123> so there are some grfs with wrong version, which just work
15:01:06 <Eddi|zuHause> we have broken malformatted grfs in the past...
15:01:23 <frosch123> but, now we even have them on bananas :)
15:01:27 <Eddi|zuHause> like combroads or newbridges
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15:10:03 <JOHN-SHEPARD> i ssee people making a one block station
15:10:10 <JOHN-SHEPARD> then far away a full station
15:10:16 <JOHN-SHEPARD> but they are the same station
15:10:26 <frosch123> hold ctrl while building the station
15:10:26 <JOHN-SHEPARD> how is this done
15:10:57 <JOHN-SHEPARD> so i can make a station that is like a way point for stuff you want to carry?
15:11:45 <frosch123> within station spread you can make quite big stations like that, which catch cargo from different spots
15:25:34 <Rubidium> frosch123: maybe save that change for after 1.1 is branched?
15:27:06 <frosch123> i would rather prefer as fast as possible to get rid of those grfs
15:27:36 <frosch123> hmm, otoh, the version 0/1 check is not as important
15:27:46 <frosch123> but there should be a version < 8 check
15:28:59 <Rubidium> maybe we should still show NewGRFs with unknown/invalid versions, but not allow them to be added to lists: Can't add this NewGRF as it has an unsupported GRF version"
15:29:53 <Rubidium> otherwise we'll end up with maybe for bananas when NewGRF v8 gets introduced and the "stable" clients don't understand it, thus don't list it and people complain about the file being downloaded again and again
15:30:05 <frosch123> what do you when loading games?
15:30:25 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: deactivate them the same way as missing grfs
15:30:52 <frosch123> Eddi|zuHause: well, but it should not consider them as compatible
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16:25:08 <Belugas> it does look good, i agree with the man
16:27:46 <Belugas> as long as it's in a grf, who cares ;)
16:28:27 <Belugas> and by the way, George added far more realistic looks than MB on his sets heheh
17:07:25 <planetmaker> bah. What a hell of a weather outside
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17:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> it was raining here all day
17:14:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and now it starts to get foggy
17:14:27 <Eddi|zuHause> luckily, i can choose not to go outside most of the time ;)
17:16:29 <planetmaker> well. true for me for the rest of the day. But the part before was bad enough...
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18:21:55 <LordAro> should probably get more sleep ;)
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18:53:47 <LordAro> a bit dead here tonight...
18:54:05 <planetmaker> we're happy that you break the silence
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18:56:50 <LordAro> talking of dead irc channel resurectors... :D
18:57:07 <ZirconiumX> hello, good to see you
19:02:18 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> how do i make a good train network with 4 cities
19:02:56 <planetmaker> by playing and building and using a less shouting nick
19:03:14 <ZirconiumX> You'll find out your own style
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19:06:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21771 /trunk/src/lang/ (czech.txt unfinished/marathi.txt):
19:06:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
19:06:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 3 changes by CrazyBenny
19:06:27 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: marathi - 28 changes by jcravi
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19:08:19 <Alberth> someone know a newobject grf with more than 4 groups in a class? (ie select a class, and the list below the dropdown has more than 4 entries)?
19:08:28 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> whats wrong with my nick
19:08:30 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> my nick is great
19:08:46 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> hey is it better to connect two very far cities
19:09:09 <Belugas> it's in upper case. You're YELLING YOUR NAME
19:09:12 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> currently the cities i connect are not so far away
19:09:25 <Alberth> people with such great NICKs know such things imho
19:09:33 <Yexo> there is no "better" in a game, just do what you like most
19:10:25 <Alberth> the only form of better is not making a loss :p
19:11:24 <Alberth> imho finding out these things is part of the fun. You have to play more OpenTTD. That cannot be bad :p
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19:14:54 <planetmaker> [20:11] <Alberth> imho finding out these things is part of the fun. You have to play more OpenTTD. That cannot be bad :p <-- oh, yes! :-)
19:17:16 <planetmaker> hm, can I define an object such that it just re-used the ground tile which is there on the tile?
19:17:41 <planetmaker> without the need to define all ground tiles...
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19:19:29 <frosch123> first of all, ottd has no idea which slope to use
19:19:44 <planetmaker> the same as present on the tile
19:19:58 <frosch123> usually there are foundations, aren't there? :p
19:20:07 <planetmaker> I just want to place a few objects without foundations...
19:20:19 <planetmaker> a stone on a meadow doesn't need foundations ;-)
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19:32:01 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> oftentimes i see people make a double station
19:32:11 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> and manage to use only one track for many trains
19:32:11 <Eddi|zuHause> i vote to autokick anybody who has more than 4 capital letters
19:32:19 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> why are you so mad
19:32:32 <JOHN-SHEPARD_> if you are jalous of my nick then get capital letters yourself
19:32:37 * ZirconiumX thanks god I use ZirconiumX than OTTDmaster
19:33:01 <__ln__> ZirconiumX: that's not more than 4
19:33:03 <Eddi|zuHause> ZirconiumX: those are "exactly 4", not "more than 4"
19:33:42 <LordAro> John-Shepard_: not jealous, annoyed... also, <-- is how your nick should be
19:34:14 <andythenorth> JOHN-SHEPARD_: you appear to have used the full quota of capital letters for today. There are none left for the rest of us :(
19:34:14 <andythenorth> you will see that I am left only with small caps :(
19:34:29 <andythenorth> for example, you could give you capital A to me :o
19:35:00 <andythenorth> and you could give your P to planetmaker
19:35:24 <planetmaker> nah, thank you ;-)
19:35:52 <ZirconiumX> JOHN-SHEPaRD_ I like, Andythenorth
19:36:03 <andythenorth> the D could go to dihedral
19:36:14 * ZirconiumX give Andythenorth a Capital A
19:36:27 * andythenorth is reluctant to pointlessly highlight other people
19:36:28 *** JOHN-SHEPARD_ is now known as ^
19:36:40 <dihedral> i do not want a capital D
19:36:42 <andythenorth> it must be bad enough having only small caps, never mind pointless highlights
19:36:51 <dihedral> but thanks for thinking of me :-P
19:37:09 <andythenorth> only too happy to help
19:37:36 * Eddi|zuHause always finds it astonishing how many people think that annoying everybody is a good way to introduce themselves into a community
19:37:47 <JOHN_> i dont know how to create a network of train
19:37:59 <andythenorth> I need to find the source for graphics for openttd.org
19:38:00 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it makes sure that you become known in no time ;-)
19:38:02 <JOHN_> but my nick never annoyed anyone before
19:38:14 <andythenorth> I can't find source in hg.openttd.org
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19:38:41 <Eddi|zuHause> John_: they were just too afraid to tell you
19:38:57 <JOHN_> my hand cant reach them throguh the screen
19:39:08 <Eddi|zuHause> John_: it can't ever have _not_ annoyed any people
19:39:43 <andythenorth> Hirundo: that looks like source for openttd.grf, unless I'm missing something....
19:40:01 <planetmaker> Hirundo: rather the website logo or so...
19:40:17 <Hirundo> oh sorry, I misread :)
19:42:10 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: have you checked whether svn.openttd.org/extra/website contains any graphics?
19:43:32 <Hirundo> That seems all html and py as far as I can see now
19:47:46 <andythenorth> I have been involved in building n websites where the graphics source goes astray...
19:48:35 <Eddi|zuHause> Hirundo: that seems like a major oversight to me...
19:48:59 <Eddi|zuHause> should definitely be brought to the attention of the responsible devs...
19:50:27 <Hirundo> looking at the log, that would be either TB or Rb
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20:28:57 <Hirundo> hmm... is there a specific reason, why NPF and YAPF each have their own binary heap implementations?
20:30:01 <Rubidium> NPF one's isn't templated and KUDr didn't understand it because it isn't templated or something?
20:31:32 <Rubidium> but then, those that made the decision about YAPF aren't really active anymore
20:32:09 <Rubidium> and it was in the era that everything except the to-be-introduced YAPF was in pure C
20:34:57 <Hirundo> I was just looking through YAPF again, and it indeed is a ***
20:36:04 <Hirundo> "... multiply-inherit from 17 of his templates, each taking an average of 4 arguments, and you barely even have to write the body of the function" (joel spolsky)
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20:44:19 <andythenorth> if you do that enough you can write one beautiful final function
20:44:40 <andythenorth> my_beautiful_function { do(stuff) }
20:46:01 <andythenorth> I probably forgot to pass 'stuff' somewhere
20:46:34 <andythenorth> or do can figure it out from context
20:46:48 <andythenorth> context is a dangerously zope-y concept
20:46:48 <andythenorth> probably best that most of you have no idea what I mean
20:47:01 <Rubidium> fonsinchen: I think you should add some sort of legenda to show what the different coloured lines in the link statistics window means
20:48:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: a "do_stuff" function makes for a great anti-pattern ;)
20:48:56 <Rubidium> as the bright green is close to both yellow and white colour wise, so it seems like they are somewhat related even though yellow and white seem to mean different things
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20:51:10 <fonsinchen> The difficult question is where to put the legenda.
20:52:06 <fonsinchen> or maybe I should make that white a slightly greenish white.
20:52:46 <fonsinchen> something's wrong with my IRC client, I have to reconnect.
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21:55:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21772 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Feature: Add a clickable display of the available objects in the newobject gui.
21:59:52 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21773 /trunk/src/ (lang/english.txt object_gui.cpp): -Change: Remove the dropdown, and make BOW_OBJECT_LIST a list of newobject classes.
22:01:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21774 /trunk/src/lang/ (50 files in 2 dirs): -Change: Update the other languages too.
22:02:25 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: alberth * r21775 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Add: Allow vertical resizing of the newobject gui.
22:09:41 <__ln__> should i buy MS Office Professional 2010 for €69.00?
22:10:24 <__ln__> Nor any other previous version.
22:10:48 <Zuu> Then I would probably buy it as I bought 2007 for about the same price a year ago. :-)
22:10:59 <Zuu> or if it was 2 or 3 years ago.
22:11:00 <Wolf01> eh, pro for 69 is a big deal
22:11:18 * SmatZ whistles *openoffice* innocently
22:11:24 <Zuu> I guess it is the "big deal" for students.
22:11:41 * Rubidium whistles *libreoffice*
22:11:54 * Terkhen whistles *good night*
22:12:01 <Wolf01> here for the home and student version you pay about 80, or 30 if the university provide it
22:12:45 <Zuu> 2007 + 2010 have the semi-latex formula editor which is nice if you have to write many formulas.
22:13:39 <Wolf01> 2007 and 2010 have too manu redundant menu items
22:13:49 <Rubidium> even then LaTeX + VCS are much better for writing something consistent
22:14:16 <Zuu> Possible, especially if you can rule your own environment.
22:15:31 <Rubidium> I still pity the guys that had to merge some 20 word documents into a single consistent document before sending it to be printed
22:15:44 <Zuu> In many cases it comes down to what will work in cooperation with other people. And then usually it is not "the best" solution that works best.
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22:16:17 <SmatZ> I use pdfcreator for merning documents...
22:16:30 <SmatZ> would be nice to know tex though
22:16:45 <Rubidium> SmatZ: does that keep consistent page numbering? Does that make a table of contents?
22:16:46 <SmatZ> but you can't expect non-programmers to use it I guess
22:16:54 <__ln__> LaTeX has some kind of a learning curve, and as far as I understand customising the page layout is non-trivial.
22:16:59 <Rubidium> does that make sure each chapter starts on an odd page?
22:17:03 <Wolf01> does that use the same style?
22:17:04 <SmatZ> Rubidium: nope, it just merges the pages, so they can be printed as 1 document :)
22:18:25 <Zuu> If you have any problem with spelling, MS office products also comes with better language tools than eg open office. Something that I value, but might be a non-issue for other people.
22:18:25 <Rubidium> with LaTeX and Subversion the act of getting a single consistent document took only a few minutes of "compiling"
22:19:53 <Zuu> However, it's true LaTeX and the usage of simple text files sure does have many adventages.
22:20:17 <__ln__> Zuu: Not that I have any problems with spelling, but there is no proofreading for Finnish at all in OpenOffice out-of-the-box.
22:21:39 <Zuu> Not sure if proofreading is the same as spell checker, but at least the Swedish one is of lower quality than in ms office.
22:22:05 <Rubidium> you can just load the latex source into office (as plain text file)
22:22:07 <__ln__> well m'kay, at least i meant the same as spell checker.
22:22:54 <Zuu> Rubidium: Sure, I do that from time to time with non-office texts just to be on the sure side.
22:23:30 <Eddi|zuHause> latex is great if you find a decent template
22:39:43 *** mikegrb has joined #openttd
23:18:46 <Eddi|zuHause> who the hell still has no backups these days?
23:19:38 <Ammler> ist halt auch ein Sicherheitsrisiko
23:20:47 <Eddi|zuHause> also: how do two people get along with using only one laptop?
23:21:14 <Ammler> oh, it is the "English Channel" :-P
23:22:02 <__ln__> Ammler: no, no, the English Channel is between France and Britain
23:54:55 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
continue to next day ⏵
