IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2011-01-01
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00:10:17 <ABCRic> the year just started and my internet already crashed :D
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00:11:36 <kamnet> Hey hey! Happy new year to all! Does anybody know what the state of Oz's graphics are?
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01:18:56 <Terkhen> happy new year to everybody :)
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02:01:46 <reldred> Rubidium: Will do, I'm the artist formerly known as 'Aegir' btw, I lost my nick on the move to OFTC back in the day.
02:02:25 <reldred> Rubidium: I'll shoot you a list, if I could just have them put under my accounts control I can clean them up and whatnot.
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08:16:46 <Rubidium> oh, it's morning already...
08:17:01 <Rubidium> then I slept through most of the fireworks :)
08:18:05 <planetmaker> interestingly... gcc 4.2 here compiles by default an x64 binary while gcc 4.0 compiles an i386 one...
08:24:10 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21684 /trunk/src/video/cocoa/ (cocoa_v.mm wnd_quartz.mm): -Fix [FS#4360] (r21573): Silence some compile warnings
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08:31:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21685 /trunk/ (55 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: prevent bug tracker entries like FS#2487 and FS#1613 for this year
08:34:07 <Rubidium> tss... daring to say that when not even the whole French Republic in in 2011 ;)
08:34:26 <Eddi|zuHause> who cares about the french :p
08:34:29 <Rubidium> that still takes 3333 seconds ;)
08:34:50 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the French?
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08:53:49 <planetmaker> good morning & happy 2011 Terkhen :-)
08:54:32 <planetmaker> hola andythenorth :-)
08:55:11 <planetmaker> hm... valgrind tells me that i386 code can't run on this machine. It clearly can ;-)
08:55:11 <andythenorth> como se dice en espanol 'happy new year'?
08:55:22 <LordAro> morning andythenorth, Terkhen and planetmaker
08:55:45 <planetmaker> nice... valgrind internal error :S
08:56:27 * andythenorth guesses freudig neue jahre isn't quite right :P
08:56:36 <andythenorth> for spanish or german
08:56:48 <planetmaker> it's strange but not wrong
08:57:20 <planetmaker> sounds like from a fairy tale ;-)
08:57:32 <planetmaker> "and they happily lived ever after" - like
08:58:34 <planetmaker> Frohes neues Jahr, andythenorth :-)
08:58:42 <andythenorth> nav varsh ki subhkamna
08:59:07 <andythenorth> and so to the code?
08:59:15 * Terkhen wishes planetmaker a new year free from valgrind internal errors
08:59:49 <KouDy> so how is first day of the new year for you guys (wherever you are located)?
08:59:51 <planetmaker> I'd rather have OpenTTD free of errors which let me play with valgrind in the first place :-P
09:00:53 <KouDy> it's raining here... but forenoon was sunny
09:02:24 <Terkhen> we have thick fog here... not very fun when you have to travel 60 km to come back to home at 1:00 AM
09:04:16 <KouDy> i think i have never seen fog around here... and if, only very light one
09:06:06 <Rubidium> planetmaker: yeah, I think strlen can cause those warnings because of an optimisation where it reads 4 bytes at a time (or so)
09:06:25 <planetmaker> compile with --enable-debug=3?
09:07:34 <Rubidium> won't help for the strlen optimisations
09:08:28 <Rubidium> though those are usually ignored by valgrind, but that needs a particular pattern it seems as after an early libc update valgrind whined a lot till it got an update
09:11:31 <Rubidium> but I've got no idea how to add ignores manually
09:14:23 <planetmaker> hm, ok. Thanks anyay
09:18:39 * andythenorth adventures in rail and road code
09:19:52 <andythenorth> I assume RoadTypes in current code aren't RoadTypes ?
09:21:46 <planetmaker> not as in NewGRF-able
09:21:52 <planetmaker> they are the two current road types
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09:26:43 <andythenorth> road has way fewer bits free than rail :o
09:27:15 <Rubidium> but it has enough bits for 16 road types
09:28:31 <andythenorth> m7 bits 7 and 6?
09:29:31 <andythenorth> or the clear m4 bits?
09:30:28 <Rubidium> there you'd set the first and second road type of a tile, which are available based on bits 6 and 7
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09:31:30 <Rubidium> unless we'd go for 15 road types, then we could use a sentinel value in m4 to mark "no road present"
09:31:42 * LordAro hates his internet connection...
09:32:02 <Rubidium> that would make stuff significantly easier I think (or maybe not)
09:32:12 <andythenorth> I'll make a list of sane road types
09:32:15 <andythenorth> see how many it is
09:32:28 <andythenorth> in gameplay, 15 or 16 is irrelevant, they're both too many :P
09:38:20 <planetmaker> andythenorth: only the amount of concurrent road types is relevant for this number
09:38:30 <planetmaker> Not the amount of road types ever conceived by people ;-)
09:38:43 <Rubidium> (two on one tile that is)
09:39:01 <planetmaker> I mean in the overall game
09:39:16 <planetmaker> on a single tile more than two is... not worth it
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09:53:53 <Yexo> good morning and a happy newyear
09:54:05 <Terkhen> happy new year Yexo :)
09:59:29 <roboboy> In 3 Hours it will be the second day of 2011 for me
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10:12:17 <andythenorth> based on RL, I've counted 4 attributes of a road tile
10:12:27 <andythenorth> street level tracks
10:13:23 <andythenorth> surfaced road for rubber tyred vehicles (and carts etc)
10:13:32 <andythenorth> elevated tracks (metro, monorail etc)
10:13:44 <andythenorth> catenary (trolley bus, tram)
10:14:22 <andythenorth> elevated roads are not something to explore?
10:14:42 <planetmaker> you'll find high-ways, national roads, country roads, dirt roads...
10:15:06 <planetmaker> so a speed limit definitely, too ;-)
10:15:09 <andythenorth> that's a combination of 'surfaced road' and 'restrictions'
10:15:22 <andythenorth> restrictions could be min / max weight, min / max speed
10:15:31 <andythenorth> or arbitrary flags ('no freight vehicles)
10:15:40 <Terkhen> max height for tunnels :P
10:15:49 <andythenorth> there's also the question of power type for elevated systems
10:16:15 <planetmaker> that's catenary. That's all.
10:16:30 <planetmaker> like railtypes. Just restrict vehicles to a road type and compatible ones
10:16:52 <planetmaker> and then the hanging monorail is compatible to no other. Done
10:17:20 <planetmaker> an important property is "towns can grow along road"
10:17:21 <andythenorth> there could only sanely be one elevated type on a tile?
10:17:39 <andythenorth> or could we be stacking up multiple levels of different transport type?
10:18:09 <planetmaker> I'd generally allow two and leave that to the player...
10:18:12 <Terkhen> how would this handle the type of road built by towns?
10:18:34 <Alberth> andythenorth: yes, so we can have underground metro systems!
10:18:43 <andythenorth> fricking underground :P
10:18:55 <andythenorth> impose elevated and tell them it's the same thing, just multiplied by -1
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10:19:26 <andythenorth> actually seriously
10:19:45 <andythenorth> apart from it's RVs not trains, how does elevated metro differ from underground metro?
10:19:59 <andythenorth> screw those who want to model london underground accurately
10:20:08 <planetmaker> seriously I consider it a different thing. You cannot see and thus not click the vehicles etc pp
10:20:13 <Alberth> except for crossings, I would have one type of transport at a tile
10:20:20 <Yexo> underground can go under houses/industries, eleveated can not
10:20:24 <andythenorth> underground is dumb. players who want that can go buy a lot of Lego and lift the floorboards in their house
10:20:24 <planetmaker> Alberth: tram + road?
10:20:41 <Alberth> tram == road, isn't it?
10:20:48 <planetmaker> it's two different road types
10:20:56 <planetmaker> two different transport modes
10:20:59 <Yexo> planetmaker: types as in "road", "rail", "water", "air"
10:21:15 <planetmaker> there, of course only one except crossings
10:21:38 <planetmaker> I actually wonder whether road and rail types cannot be unified ;-)
10:22:06 <planetmaker> save code duplication
10:22:17 <Alberth> diagonal roads are difficult
10:22:20 <Yexo> the pathfinder (yapf) already unified a lot of code for them
10:22:29 <Terkhen> IMO they are too different to be worth the effort, although they might be able to share small bits of code
10:22:35 <andythenorth> tram == road tile with street level track
10:22:52 * andythenorth wonders how many types of track could be on a tile
10:23:10 <planetmaker> andythenorth: three: one rail + two road
10:23:30 <andythenorth> so I don't really understand yet...
10:23:40 <planetmaker> (plus one bridge + 15(?) tunnels below
10:23:49 <andythenorth> would RoadTypes be completely open to newgrf authors whims, or would there be some fixed attributes
10:24:03 <andythenorth> e.g. w.r.t to tram track, catenary, etc
10:24:47 <Alberth> it would be good to have some guide lines for authors imho, but that is probably mostly by convention, not in the code
10:24:59 <andythenorth> rail types have 'compatible types' and 'powered type'?
10:25:35 <planetmaker> an e-rail engine can travel unpowered on a steam track
10:25:56 <planetmaker> so rails are compatible
10:26:02 <planetmaker> but power only on e-rails
10:26:44 * Alberth ponders whether an electric engine downhill would travel non-electric tracks
10:27:53 <Alberth> probably better if not :)
10:33:25 <Yexo> planetmaker: powered is not really useful for road vehicles
10:33:40 <Yexo> as a road vehicle that is not powered is not able to run at all
10:33:58 <Yexo> as opposed to rail vehicles, where one engine may not have power but it can run because another engine still has power
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10:35:06 <Alberth> just preparing for rv-wagons :p
10:35:49 <ZirconiumX> happy new year to all of you
10:35:59 <ZirconiumX> (those that are in the new year)
10:36:27 <ZirconiumX> hello, the good Lord!
10:36:53 <ZirconiumX> (that's my nickname for you)
10:37:43 <Terkhen> happy new year ZirconiumX
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10:38:26 * Rubidium wonders what ZirconiumX's X stands for; the 10 ppb in blood maybe?
10:38:47 <ZirconiumX> The element, and X
10:39:28 <ZirconiumX> or the strike which has been issued to me, I've already been kicked once, haven't I PM
10:40:06 <ZirconiumX> Smat's two letters better than me :(
10:40:27 <Rubidium> my memory may be bad, but I don't remember an element X; The only element with an X I can think of is xeon but that is Xe
10:40:53 <ZirconiumX> I know an element X
10:41:26 <ZirconiumX> I'm a guardian there, don't play much though
10:42:47 <LordAro> happy new year to you too :p
10:43:20 * ZirconiumX ^^ then slaps Rubidium fround the face
10:44:01 <LordAro> and then suddenly ZirconiumX 'leaves' unexplainedly
10:45:15 <planetmaker> Rubidium: in astrophysics / cosmology X synonymous sometimes for H
10:45:18 <Rubidium> my memory must really be getting worse this year
10:45:38 <LordAro> ha! it's still 2010 in some..er...remote islands in the pacific... :)
10:45:49 <planetmaker> (they only know three elements: X, Y and Z, where X=H, Y=He, Z=all the tiny rest)
10:46:17 <Rubidium> yay for LINT and SST
10:46:18 <ZirconiumX> I'll be back in a bit
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10:46:30 <planetmaker> where Z is then referred to as metal, whatever it is, even if most of the 'metal' is sand actually...
10:46:46 <ZirconiumX> damn it didn't work
10:47:01 <ZirconiumX> I tried to change my nick to ZirconiumH
10:47:53 <Rubidium> it'd be ZirconiumH2 to be somewhat correct though
10:48:59 <Rubidium> then you'd be used for pyrotechnics ;)
10:49:25 <andythenorth> why isn't powered useful for road vehicles?
10:49:32 <planetmaker> ZirconiumX: /nick newnick
10:49:33 <Rubidium> planetmaker: 4 depot sprites? Not 6? Those pesky wall stubs
10:50:29 <andythenorth> only one track type per tile?
10:50:39 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd say yes
10:50:41 <andythenorth> is an elevated track a track?
10:50:53 * LordAro likes the /die command
10:51:05 <andythenorth> elevated track is different
10:51:20 *** ZirconiumX is now known as ZrH2
10:51:46 <andythenorth> unless there's a map limitation, at least two track types per tile are needed
10:52:00 <andythenorth> or better, distinguish surface / non-surface types
10:52:04 <ZrH2> you now have to call me Zirconium Hydride
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10:52:37 <andythenorth> otherwise e.g. monorail could never cross tram tracks
10:53:35 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yeah, you'd have to bridge it
10:53:42 <planetmaker> which you'd have to do anyway
10:53:54 <andythenorth> not very effective in game
10:54:23 <planetmaker> ah, those pesky walls :-) yes, of course, Rubidium
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10:54:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: it's not about making everything possible. And having two tracks cross is also not possible with rail types. I maintain 'no crossing of tracks'
10:55:03 <planetmaker> nor of catenaries
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10:55:20 <LordAro> Rubidium: how come the second link has 32bit graphics shown?
10:55:42 <planetmaker> you'd get glitches to no end, andythenorth
10:56:08 <Rubidium> hmm, although I should've properly capitalised it as iDunno then
10:56:20 <planetmaker> broken tracks when drawn on top of eachother. Different catenaries short-circuiting eachother...
10:56:33 <planetmaker> I'm quite against two such things on one tile :-)
10:56:41 <ZirconiumX> Rubidium: The new Apple iDunno
10:56:43 <planetmaker> same as you cannot have two road surfaces
10:58:42 <andythenorth> planetmaker: so I prefer to distinguish street-level / elevated types rather than two 'track' types
10:58:54 <andythenorth> as the vehicles would be completely incompatible wrt each other
10:59:04 <Rubidium> how does tram fit in?
10:59:06 <andythenorth> I guess the elevated sets use some monster offsets
10:59:12 <andythenorth> tram is a track type
10:59:48 <Rubidium> or rather road surface so to speak
10:59:58 <Rubidium> but it can be combined with tarmac
11:00:19 <andythenorth> I'l make a list...
11:00:34 <andythenorth> I have to throw a ball to the baby every 5 seconds, so it may be a while...
11:04:56 <andythenorth> is a guided busway track or road?
11:05:10 <andythenorth> and is the distinction between 'track' and 'road' misleading?
11:05:32 <andythenorth> either there's a compatible type on the tile, or there's not?
11:05:49 <planetmaker> andythenorth: probably three things which each tile can only have once: tarmac, tracks, catenaray
11:06:08 <andythenorth> are they quite different problems - vehicle routing and drawing the tile? w.r.t to allowed types
11:06:14 <planetmaker> you cannot build a road type over another, if it defines one thing already present
11:07:18 <planetmaker> one might think of a 'conditionally draw tarmac / track / catenary' - i.e. only add, if not already present, otherwise don't care about our own.
11:07:33 <planetmaker> but that might get more messy than it's worth
11:12:16 <roboboy> So Say I have Tram and Tarmac on a tile and want to add trolley bus could that happen if they had a compatable catenary system?
11:12:59 <planetmaker> if you define them compatible...
11:13:37 <peter1138> anyone want my road type code?
11:16:09 <planetmaker> andythenorth: wants it ;-)
11:16:32 <andythenorth> I'll buy that for a dollar
11:19:10 * Alberth offers some non-working group code for sale
11:19:21 <andythenorth> I have an improved tropic map generator
11:19:47 <andythenorth> so we need to distinguish track / tarmac because they have to be drawn?
11:20:07 <andythenorth> but vehicle routing can be considered separately?
11:20:10 <Terkhen> selling non-working code is a great idea :P
11:20:22 <andythenorth> we give the working code away for free
11:20:26 <planetmaker> hm, I have a few non-working pieces of gui code. Anyone?
11:20:29 <andythenorth> there's got to be revenue somewhere :P
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11:24:50 <andythenorth> what if I invented a maglev people-mover road type that (1) runs at street level (2) uses a rail which can be placed down the centre of tram tracks
11:25:11 <andythenorth> that's a valid case for drawing multiple sprites
11:26:58 <planetmaker> jack-of-all-trades-newgrf-support?
11:27:42 <planetmaker> restrictions are what make the game challanging ;-)
11:28:01 <planetmaker> and the possible conflicts don't make this worthwhile IMHO
11:29:28 <andythenorth> planetmaker: it was more a test case to see if tracks are really different to road
11:29:37 <andythenorth> and I guess they are because they need to be drawn
11:30:01 <planetmaker> I'd distinguish tarmac and tracks and catenary. They're independent and often found concurrently
11:30:11 <planetmaker> but not two of either type on a single place
11:30:30 <andythenorth> I'd really strongly make a case for something like 'elevated route' as well
11:30:42 <planetmaker> nah. Use tracks for that
11:31:04 <planetmaker> what's the use case of "elevated"?
11:32:05 <planetmaker> happy new year, dihedral
11:32:21 <dihedral> happy new year to you too planetmaker
11:32:41 <ZirconiumX> happy new year dihedral!
11:33:32 <andythenorth> elevated is primarily eye candy / interesting
11:33:32 <andythenorth> to prevent an elevated metro / monorail crossing a tram line would be very annoying
11:34:12 <andythenorth> it's currently the thing that makes me thing RoadTypes is worth trying
11:34:23 <andythenorth> otherwise I think there is limited benefit
11:35:25 <andythenorth> it seems many of us like the idea of trails, highways, etc. but in game, we'd probably end up just building everywhere '120km/h tarmac road no restrictions'
11:36:05 <planetmaker> so they end up building tarmac and both normal, elevated and trams everywhere?
11:36:44 <andythenorth> that's why we discuss it :)
11:37:38 <andythenorth> I guess forcing 'choose trams *or* elevated' just seems too arbitrary a restriction
11:38:20 <planetmaker> add maybe a flag like "allow crossing other road tracks"
11:38:47 <andythenorth> cross orthogonal, but don't run parallel?
11:38:54 <andythenorth> that's actually an *interesting* restriction
11:39:17 <andythenorth> similar to trams can't reverse on slopes
11:39:28 <andythenorth> annoying, but there have be limitations
11:39:51 <andythenorth> parallel is the wrong word here :P
11:40:51 <Alberth> dihedral: may be a (long) while before RB answers
12:01:09 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I don't claim this makes 100% sense yet
12:01:19 <andythenorth> but something has to be written...Basic types
12:01:19 <andythenorth> *There is an elevated route on this tile*
12:01:20 <andythenorth> overhead metro (conventional track)
12:01:20 <andythenorth> overhead monorail
12:01:20 <andythenorth> overhead suspended monorail
12:01:21 <andythenorth> (power type - electrified, rope hauled, unpowered, air tube, etc)
12:01:21 <andythenorth> (+ more types invented by players, travel tubes, people movers, etc).
12:01:22 <andythenorth> All elevated things would need crazy sprite offsets for the vehicles. There would be absolutely *no* way for a vehicle to move between street level and elevated routes.
12:01:22 <andythenorth> *There is a street level track of some kind on this tile*
12:01:24 <andythenorth> conventional trams
12:01:24 <andythenorth> guideways for buses etc
12:01:26 <andythenorth> crazy stuff that gets invented
12:01:26 <andythenorth> (power type - electrified, rope hauled, unpowered, air tube, etc)
12:01:28 <andythenorth> *There is a surfaced street of some kind on this tile*
12:01:28 <andythenorth> dirt / tarmac types etc etc
12:01:30 <andythenorth> *Other features*
12:01:30 <andythenorth> There is street level catenary on this tile (what about elevated?).
12:01:32 <andythenorth> There are restrictions on this tile (max / min weight, speed etc).
12:01:34 * andythenorth runs before kban
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12:02:02 <andythenorth> stupid mac clipboard - doesn't always copy urls in Safari
12:03:44 * andythenorth wonders how would elevated tracks work with level crossings?
12:04:06 <planetmaker> I think you mix somewhat the feature 'road types' with actually defining the types themselves
12:04:43 <planetmaker> or is each bullet point just examples of a feature only found once per tile?
12:05:06 <planetmaker> yeah, but mixing that will lead to ugly hacks and a non-clean implementation. That has first to be abstracted nicely away.
12:05:07 <andythenorth> thinking of implementing types will help me understand how the actual feature should work
12:05:10 <planetmaker> Details are for newgrfs
12:05:27 <andythenorth> it helps me find edge cases...
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12:06:56 <andythenorth> zephyris's suspended monorail uses level crossing
12:07:01 <andythenorth> which looks odd :)
12:07:36 <andythenorth> so is supporting elevated stuff nicely desirable at all?
12:08:23 <andythenorth> planetmaker: yes...the starred items are 'one per tile'
12:08:35 <andythenorth> more or less, once I get my thinking clear
12:09:44 <dihedral> <Alberth> dihedral: may be a (long) while before RB answers <- but he'll answer :-)
12:12:29 <andythenorth> is there much use of multiple rail-type newgrfs?
12:20:38 <planetmaker> people use it for they enjoyment, yes
12:32:31 <andythenorth> ok...so elevated routes will cause problems with level crossings, and bridges
12:32:59 <andythenorth> so I'd say tmwftlb, but then again, if RoadTypes was available, there would probably be some newgrfs to add elevated routes...
12:33:17 <andythenorth> like urban monorail grf
12:37:50 <planetmaker> why do they cause problems with level crossings and bridges?
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12:38:01 <planetmaker> disallow level crossings for them
12:39:02 <planetmaker> (dis)allowing crossings is not task of openttd to decide but of the newgrf author to choose via a flag
12:39:25 <planetmaker> like railtypes already do
12:43:22 <andythenorth> planetmaker: ok the problems are probably ones for newgrf authors...
12:43:30 <andythenorth> have you tried Zephyris' urban monorail?
12:43:38 <andythenorth> with (e.g.) tubular bridge?
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12:48:39 <planetmaker> not in a very long time. Why?
12:50:37 <andythenorth> any elevated route is going to run into multiple graphical problems with, e.g. tubular bridge, tram catenary, train catenary
12:50:47 <andythenorth> maybe other things I didn't think of yet
12:51:19 * andythenorth tries building a rail bridge over elevated monorail - results are....interesting
12:53:18 <andythenorth> I think providing proper support for elevated routes is not feasible
12:53:35 <andythenorth> it's a clever hack by Zephyris, but too many issues
12:54:32 <andythenorth> also, the elevated track is provided as catenary, which handles the sprite sorting for front / rear supports
12:55:16 <andythenorth> but that's not ideal, which means a station-style sprite layer system would be needed for elevated routes
12:55:21 <andythenorth> all in all, full of problems
12:55:34 <planetmaker> what I'm saying ;-)
12:56:05 <andythenorth> so back to your spec...
12:56:43 <planetmaker> I read it before I started typing ;-)
13:05:48 <Alberth> andythenorth: that .png looks like a rollercoaster track :D
13:07:35 <avdg> reminds my to the failing vertigo in walibi waver (an attraction)
13:08:54 <avdg> but there isn't an english one
13:10:31 <Alberth> I have build such coasters in RCT1, but I didn't know that they actually exist :)
13:12:02 <avdg> that thing did work, only, at the time I was there, there was a failure around every 5 minutes
13:12:19 <avdg> causing these cars stoping on the tracks
13:12:53 <Alberth> so a ride took a long time :)
13:13:27 <avdg> yes, and somehow, they managed to get them moving again afterwards :p
13:13:59 <Alberth> hmm, it didn't run on gravity thus
13:14:05 <avdg> I still didn't found out how they did it (maybe there was an electric engine or something)
13:14:18 <avdg> it does, but it gets stuck sometimes
13:14:42 <avdg> elevator and drop (like almost all other attractions)
13:14:43 <roboboy> so its a JamCoaster :P
13:14:54 <avdg> but that lift was amazing to see
13:15:18 <Alberth> and RCT1 did a good simulation, I also had cars stopping halfway :p
13:15:30 <avdg> it had 2 arms, so it could put 1 car up, while the other arm goes down
13:16:27 <avdg> you can check it on youtube
13:22:29 <avdg> hmm yeah, thats a special lift
13:22:57 <avdg> and indeed the same idea
13:24:38 <avdg> hmm, does it completely run on water "power"?
13:27:18 <Alberth> apparently not, "...An electric motor drives a hydraulic pump..."
13:27:49 <roboboy> I want it as a replacement for OpenTTD's locks :P
13:28:36 <avdg> well, lets assume that these boats have wheels to climb up :)
13:30:27 *** Chillosophy has joined #openttd
13:30:57 <avdg> Belgium docks are also great
13:31:16 <Alberth> and this is really amazing imho "... opened to the public to a crowd of thousands on 9 July 1904, and remains in full use today."
13:31:39 <__ln__> the crowd must be pretty old by now
13:32:52 <avdg> great useless money spender
13:33:09 <avdg> from the 50/50 period in Belgium
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13:36:41 <Wolf01> hello, happy new year!
13:38:38 <planetmaker> hm... they found a planetary system with 7 other planets. One boiling earth-like and 4 Neptun - sized boiling gas planets closer in than Earth here and two Saturn-like ones further out...
13:38:58 * roboboy is over these Happy New Years as he is now in the 2nd of January
13:39:29 <avdg> the news told me that you may wish everyone a happy new year till the end of this month :p
13:40:09 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
13:40:42 <dihedral> avdg - are you avd on flyspray?
13:41:40 <avdg> Hmm, I thought it was needed for full matches
13:43:21 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I'm not sure what to do next wrt to RoadTypes :O
13:43:39 <andythenorth> the elevated idea is knocked on the head
13:44:15 <planetmaker> design clean NewGRF specs
13:45:02 <planetmaker> I'd not bother about elevated :-)
13:45:11 <planetmaker> That hack can continue to work by abusing catenary
13:47:11 <Mazur> Is that one of those locks with a specific width and length, for which special ships were built sailing that route in Belgium and France?
13:47:16 <andythenorth> I figure existing railtype spec is a good place to start
13:47:58 <Mazur> By the way, best fishes for the new deer, everyone.
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13:48:09 <planetmaker> having them as similar as reasonably possible certainly will help both you implementing it as well as prospective grf authors ;-)
13:50:16 <andythenorth> trams currently appear to have same acceleration model as other RVs
13:50:34 <andythenorth> which would make railtype prop 15 un-needed
13:51:34 <Mazur> Until someone implements a specific tram-acceleration model.
13:53:09 <planetmaker> ah, you mean you don't need an accel property?
13:54:07 <planetmaker> for now then probably not. But you could probably at little cost
14:07:48 <Wolf01> anybody good with php? I'm reading some strings from a file with fgets but I want to remove the \n, but seem my php doesn't like it, in fact it prints it as "\n" if I use it on strings and doesn't find it if the string contains a newline
14:08:46 <glx> IIRC fgets removes the \n
14:09:57 <__ln__> Wolf01: why not use python instead?
14:10:16 <Wolf01> because I don't know python
14:10:27 <Wolf01> and I don't have it installed
14:10:34 <andythenorth> one good reason :)
14:11:05 <glx> unless you use binary mode
14:13:00 <Wolf01> I don't know too much about webservers, I only have apache+php installed and I'm learning php to do simple things
14:13:45 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: what andythenorth and __ln__ are trying to tell you was: python is much easier to learn to do simple things
14:14:49 <__ln__> exactly, having to mess with something as low-level as fgets() in a so-called high-level language is sad.
14:15:58 <Wolf01> eh, that's from a tutorial on "reading text files with php"
14:16:53 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: yes. and now read a tutorial on "reading text files with python"
14:18:19 <Alberth> f = open(fname, 'r'); line = f.readline()
14:18:49 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd do: file = open(filename); for line in file: do_stuff_with(line)
14:19:06 <Alberth> I was about to type that too :)
14:19:38 <Zuu> $lines = file("filename"); foreach($lines as $line) { print $line; }
14:20:10 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: that looks totally scary.
14:20:11 <Alberth> now do a multi-assignment in the for-loop :)
14:20:12 <Zuu> It's not as efficient as uing open + readline, but on small files it may do the trick.
14:20:49 <Alberth> or apply an index operation on a result of a function call
14:21:26 <Alberth> Wolf01: PHP is just a terrible language, if you have a choice, stay away from it
14:21:39 <Zuu> Not sure what a multi-assingment or index operation is.
14:21:56 <Zuu> But I do have to agree PHP is not very good as language, it's just the defacto standard.
14:22:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: variable,content = line.split('=',1)
14:22:31 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: or content = line.split('=',1)[1]
14:22:34 <Alberth> def f(): return (1, 2) ; y = f()[0] <-- you cannot do that in php
14:23:03 <Zuu> But you can return arrays and the parse those arrays.
14:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> Zuu: again, that sounds totally scary ;)
14:25:59 <Alberth> having C-like functions for strings in a language aimed at manipulating text is just broken beyond repair imho
14:26:29 <Alberth> ie strcmp(x,y) != 0 vs x == y
14:26:55 <Alberth> Mazur: anything else than PHP is better :)
14:27:01 <andythenorth> bit early in the year for a holy way
14:27:18 <Mazur> It's not for nothing: Practical Extraction and Reporting Language.
14:27:25 <andythenorth> and even if someone can make a case for it, they're wrong
14:27:30 <Wolf01> I could do it in asp but I don't want to install MS things
14:27:38 <Alberth> Mazur: I don't know Perl, "do the right thing depending on context" don't go well together
14:27:47 * Zuu suggests that Alberth try the WAP language
14:28:12 <Mazur> Perl is _so_ easy to learn.
14:29:01 <Alberth> WAP is a markup language :)
14:29:25 <Zuu> That's not what I was suggesting (or intended to suggest)
14:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i think it could be useful for highways, where you still can't get around 90° curves...
14:31:05 <Alberth> Zuu: have a URL? the closest I get is "visual agent programming" which doesn't sound right.
14:31:24 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: and dirt roads/ice roads might have reduced curve speed
14:31:45 <Alberth> Mazur: I prefer a language where a constructs does exactly the same, independent of context.
14:31:53 <Zuu> It's however hard to find any good open document on it.
14:32:18 <Alberth> there is no open implementation?
14:32:36 <Zuu> But the basics are that you can only define your own methods (no return values and no input parameters) and there are only global scope variables. :-)
14:33:05 <Zuu> I don't think there is any open implementation as it's part of VisSim which is rather expansive.
14:33:21 <Zuu> Though they are moving to Python it seems.
14:33:28 <Alberth> s/expansive/expensive/ I hope :)
14:34:28 * Alberth hates vendor lock-ins
14:40:35 <glevans2> <Mazur> Why not use perl? <---the force is strong in this one...
14:45:03 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
14:46:46 <Alberth> with a VERY fast Internet connection :p
14:47:16 <Markslap> I would say that U, S and the A is Mars, but not Austrailia.
14:47:16 <Wolf01> that's not a problem, the problem is the latency
14:48:10 <Alberth> Wolf01: yes, faster as in small latency, not the usual confused "fast = much bandwidth"
14:52:48 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
14:53:27 * Eddi|zuHause makes note of DanMacK's password
14:53:30 * DanMacK changes his Nickserv PW now
14:55:00 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I can't see any vehicle movement code that would use the curve property
14:55:05 <andythenorth> I know there must be some
14:55:15 <andythenorth> I've searched all the useful strings I could think of :P
14:55:42 <Wolf01> DanMacK, you shouldn't use too simple passwords
14:56:06 <Xaroth> would be more fun to just ghost him, Eddi|zuHause :P
14:57:10 <Wolf01> I have a script which I can use in case of emergency to reset my password in 2 seconds if I type it by mistake :D
14:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> Xaroth: yes, but i'm not evil enough to do that
14:57:43 <Xaroth> you have much to learn, Eddi|zuHause :P
14:58:18 <Xaroth> and why 'type' your password
14:58:48 <Xaroth> normal clients have perfectly capable ways of doing that for you
14:58:54 <Xaroth> without the chance of it landing in a channel :P
14:59:12 *** George|2 is now known as George
14:59:28 <Wolf01> indeed, I use a script for identification
15:00:22 <Xaroth> as i said, 'normal clients' :P
15:00:40 <Xaroth> and yes, Eddi|zuHause, ******* :)
15:00:52 <Wolf01> if you use 3 servers you can't do that with a normal client
15:01:08 <andythenorth> my brain thinks there should be RV curve code in roadveh_cmd.cpp
15:01:10 <Xaroth> and all 4 without a script :)
15:01:12 <andythenorth> but I can't see it :P
15:01:40 <Wolf01> I was able to use the feature to identify to one server at time
15:01:56 <Xaroth> Wolf01: as i said, you need a 'normal' client for it :)
15:01:59 <Alberth> andythenorth: src/train_cmd.cpp:371
15:02:22 <Alberth> andythenorth: grep -rni curve src
15:02:24 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: even mIRC has per-server-"performs"
15:02:27 <Wolf01> eh, legacy mirc, I'm nostalgic
15:02:55 *** Adambean has joined #openttd
15:03:24 <andythenorth> some RV code is unified with train code?
15:03:31 <andythenorth> wrt to speed in curves etc
15:04:28 <Alberth> no idea, /me does not understand vehicle traveling code
15:04:56 <Alberth> perhaps I should first look at something less complicated than trains :)
15:05:26 <andythenorth> the curve code looks simple in itself
15:06:06 <Wolf01> <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: even mIRC has per-server-"performs" <- I use that in fact, but to call the script whick checks for the user-password in another file
15:06:23 <Alberth> that could be, I was looking at train reversal, a much more complicated topic
15:06:52 <andythenorth> can't figure out if RVs use that curve code though
15:06:59 <andythenorth> a search for GetCurveSpeedLimit only shows trains using it
15:08:02 <Alberth> do RVs slow down in a corner?
15:12:12 <Yexo> see RoadVehicle::GetCurrentMaxSpeed
15:13:31 <Alberth> ah: ... 75% in curves */
15:13:50 <Xaroth> SQL/DB Error -- [MySQL server has gone away]
15:14:23 <Xaroth> probably on a vacation
16:16:10 *** tycoondemon has joined #openttd
16:21:27 *** fjb is now known as Guest2866
16:35:57 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21686 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Cleanup: remove unused constants and comment used ones
16:48:10 <andythenorth> planetmaker: seems that everything here would be needed for RoadTypes except prop 15
16:48:35 <andythenorth> and implementing prop 15 might not do harm, except I think it's pointless
16:48:44 <planetmaker> powered is not needed
16:49:10 <planetmaker> also station graphics
16:49:28 <planetmaker> there are no different types
16:49:56 <planetmaker> a flag is sufficient whether the default or your own shall be used
16:50:11 <planetmaker> though "always your own" would be good, too
16:50:17 <Yexo> why not always use the default and implement something like newgrf road-stations?
16:50:36 <planetmaker> Yexo: sure. But that extends the scope even more :-)
16:51:04 <Yexo> as long as you limit it to the default station types and only allow new graphics is quite simple to implement
16:52:03 <planetmaker> you mean terminus and dtrs?
16:52:20 <Yexo> you also need a list of road types that can coexist on the same tile. While "normal road + tram" makes sense, and "dirt road + tram" would also work, "dirt road + normal road" no so
16:53:41 <planetmaker> Yexo: that's why I'd allow two principal types: tracks + tarmac, where no two can co-exist. The third flag which would fit there is 'catenary'
16:54:31 <Zuu> Is it a honor to be named Albert?
16:54:39 <IvanS> Hello and Happy new year, I am having problems with the networking game server list. I can see many servers (more than 100), but servers that I know that are online are appearing as offline in the list, thus I cannot join them.
16:54:46 <Yexo> in that case you'll need a property for that, railtypes don't have that
16:55:19 <planetmaker> I'd call it road flags or so. But yes
16:55:37 <Yexo> IvanS: what version of openttd are you using?
16:56:05 <IvanS> note that i CAN connect using the "connect" command from the command line
16:56:07 <planetmaker> did you try to add the ip manually?
16:56:08 <Zuu> IvanS: Do you host or know the owner of the server you can't find?
16:56:15 <IvanS> the IP is already on the list
16:56:42 <planetmaker> did you update the server list? and is the server's firewall properly configured?
16:56:49 <DorpsGek> Yexo: OpenTTD uses TCP and UDP port 3979 for server <-> client communication, UDP port 3978 for masterserver (advertise) communication (outbound), and TCP port 3978 for content service, a.k.a. BaNaNaS (outbound)
16:56:53 <planetmaker> and routers to the server?
16:57:06 <andythenorth> planetmaker: agreed on the allowed flags
16:57:12 <Yexo> IvanS: could it be that your router blocks UDP port 3979?
16:57:28 <andythenorth> prop 15 is required if rv-wagons becomes available
16:57:33 <IvanS> yes, I have a very simple NAT setup, my dsl router, I even tried forcing the UDP ports back to my PC in case it was not doing it automatically.
16:57:37 <Yexo> IIRC UDP 3979 is used to check if a server is online, UDP port 3978 is used to get the list of servers
16:57:48 <Yexo> TCP 3979 is used to join a server, so that appears to work fine
16:58:14 <IvanS> yes, the other servers show as online. and as far as I can see the same method is used
16:58:27 <Yexo> oh, it's only 1 server that shows as offline?
16:58:48 <Zuu> IvanS: Does this problem server show up on openttd.org/servers?
16:58:57 <IvanS> yes It's one that I know that it's online and that I CAN join using the command line (connect bla bla)
16:59:05 <planetmaker> andythenorth: yes, the accel model doesn't hurt to have. Like trams can get a rail model then
16:59:17 <IvanS> the server is quite popular, it's Lukkland's server, a lot of ppl is playing there
16:59:53 <IvanS> I already spoke with the guys that run the server and we are clueless
16:59:53 <planetmaker> they're advertized. Check your routers and firewall.
16:59:57 <andythenorth> for those trucks it's not prop 15 that's needed, but prop 0F
17:00:09 <andythenorth> (prop 15 is still useful to have I think)
17:00:59 <IvanS> I used wireshark to see what's happening, I see 3 bytes going to every advertised server. Then online servers answer with their name and description on my originating port
17:02:31 <Yexo> and do you receive an answer from luukland's server?
17:02:43 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21687 /trunk/src/ (console_type.h network/network_client.cpp): -Fix: verify the colour code we received from the server is valid
17:02:56 <Yexo> if not, it's something between that server and your computer, not a problem with OpenTTD
17:03:39 <IvanS> port used for discovery is the same used when joining?
17:04:12 <Yexo> for discovery UDP port 3979 is used, for joining TCP port 3979
17:04:34 <IvanS> oh, I see, that could explain why I can join manually
17:07:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21688 /trunk/src/console.cpp: -Codechange: verify the colour code passed to IConsolePrint()/IConsolePrintF() is valid
17:09:45 <IvanS> Could it be some router limitation? I mean, sending 200 UDP packets to 200 different servers from the same originating port means the router has to remember those 200 UDP streams to make the answers come back
17:10:15 <Eddi|zuHause> UDP has no "connections"
17:10:28 <Eddi|zuHause> it's "fire-and-forget"
17:11:04 <IvanS> partially true, the router has to remember those "fire-and-forget" to send the packets back to the originating private address
17:12:14 <andythenorth> how does rail types handle depots?
17:12:37 <andythenorth> does it use the station action 0 property?
17:12:44 <planetmaker> they can be provided as railtype-specific graphics
17:12:52 <andythenorth> I can see nutracks is providing custom depots, I can't see how in the spec
17:13:03 <planetmaker> no action0. All different rail sprites are "cargo" types
17:13:41 *** ZirconiumX has joined #openttd
17:14:30 <ZirconiumX> hello PM, how (badly) is it going
17:14:56 <Rubidium> dihedral: IIRC I did, but bugs.openttd.org isn't vcs.openttd.org, so I tried that as well
17:17:33 <IvanS> In any case it seems that UDP packets are not comming back from that particular server (luukland). That wouldn't be surprising if it were not because UDP is comming back from every other server and because everyone else can see Luukland's server as online.
17:18:28 <IvanS> I will try forcing my public IP to change, it seems that the intertubes are failing on me :P
17:18:43 <Terkhen> andythenorth: road vehicles use their own function for curves, IIRC they are reduced to 75% of their speed
17:19:10 <Rubidium> Luukland runs a custom build of OpenTTD, so it's totally unsupported by us in any case
17:19:40 <IvanS> I was just hopping there was the "check your X setting, noob!" answer ;)
17:19:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: the spec you wrote this morning - you defined a flag for use_default_depot
17:19:50 <IvanS> I will also reset my -made in china- router haha
17:20:06 <planetmaker> not really. But rail type authors asked for it
17:20:12 <Rubidium> IvanS: might very well be that your IP is banned by Luukland
17:20:21 <Terkhen> currently road vehicles always use 0 (normal)
17:20:36 <IvanS> yeh, I thought that, asked, and it's not
17:21:15 <IvanS> I will figure this thing out, whatever it takes :D
17:21:24 <andythenorth> Terkhen: so RVs could use a custom acceleration function?
17:21:34 <planetmaker> might also be that they hacked it to a broken state. There's no more modified version which claims to be unmodified than their servers
17:21:38 <andythenorth> hmm....but not defined in nfo :P
17:21:59 <planetmaker> andythenorth: they could use RV, train, monorail or maglev
17:22:16 <Terkhen> if you define a different one it could be added too
17:22:28 <Terkhen> they are just a bunch of if/elses in the acceleration function
17:24:05 <andythenorth> so roadtypes could easily use prop 15
17:24:51 <andythenorth> so hover bus could be told to use maglev for example...(but it's defined by the road type...)
17:25:02 <Terkhen> it just returns that property from the railtype
17:25:35 <andythenorth> it's a small distraction....but how would something like hoverbus relate to roadtype?
17:26:41 <Terkhen> it would require a special "hover road" IMO
17:27:05 <IvanS> In a totally unrelated question. Does openttd use SDL_ttf to render fonts?
17:27:10 <andythenorth> would that be a type of tarmac or track?
17:27:25 <ZirconiumX> @ Terken in other words anything that doesnt have trees on...
17:27:53 <Terkhen> andythenorth: I suppose
17:28:03 <ZirconiumX> if it hovers, why does it need a road
17:28:09 <ZirconiumX> it doesn'tt touch it
17:28:25 <ZirconiumX> the only thing stopping it is a tree
17:28:31 <andythenorth> but it has to follow a route :P
17:29:15 <Zuu> Maybe law requires it to follow a road in order to not registry as an aircraft?
17:29:30 <andythenorth> is there any case for not allowing a roadtype to use bridges?
17:29:36 <ZirconiumX> a hovercraft is an aircraft
17:29:50 <planetmaker> IvanS: that depends. And I'm not sure about OS which use SDL. We use libfreetype and fontconfig
17:30:33 <ZirconiumX> why don't we have in airports ground effect vehicle track
17:30:48 <andythenorth> also - do I remember weight limits being discussed for rail types and dismissed due to being a step too far?
17:30:52 <ZirconiumX> hovercraft, hoverbus, flying saucer
17:31:10 <Alberth> Zuu: must be, your answer was an order of magnitude more useful :p
17:31:55 <ZirconiumX> FTTB we can replace the tramtrack with a coil ish thing
17:32:51 <Zuu> ZirconiumX: And make it play music? :-p
17:33:08 <Wolf01> futurama tubes to transport people: invisible cars with 1 passenger capacity
17:33:46 * ZirconiumX sneaks in control panel and plays a genesis track
17:33:47 <Zuu> Nah, I was thinking about playing music in the coil :-)
17:34:11 * ZirconiumX causes havoc everywhere
17:34:51 <ZirconiumX> if we have it suspended in air, we can create the illusion of hovering
17:35:59 <IvanS> planetmaker: I'm trying to understand if there is some way to get antialias on linux
17:36:13 *** JVassie has joined #openttd
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17:36:42 <Rubidium> IvanS: 32bpp blitter + enable aa in the config file?
17:41:01 * andythenorth wonders what things road types might need that rail types *doesn't* have
17:42:01 <andythenorth> most helpful, thanks
17:43:11 <IvanS> Rubidium: thanks! that's just what I wanted. With the "32bpp-anim" bliter it makes strange artifacts on the fonts, but then it fixes by itself after few seconds
17:43:26 <ZirconiumX> more specific? Graphics, features
17:43:41 <IvanS> Rubidium: "32bpp-optimized" works right.
17:43:51 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: nfo action 0 properties, varaction 2, or callbacks
17:44:27 <IvanS> Rubidium: anyway it's a must with a 22 inch monitor, pixels are just too small at the native res
17:47:43 * ZirconiumX has no idea what ATN just said
17:50:15 * ZirconiumX still has no idea what andythenorth just said
17:50:56 <andythenorth> how might this need to be extended for road types?
17:52:38 <andythenorth> I thought pikka asked for extension of cb36 - called when railtype changes
17:52:54 <andythenorth> I can't find a forum thread / anything in newgrf spec
17:53:02 <ZirconiumX> I still maintain stripes
17:56:28 <ZirconiumX> I've found two topics, but I'm not sure that it's the correct one
17:56:43 <ZirconiumX> cb36 for 0D applied inconsistantly to dual-headed vehicles
17:56:56 <ZirconiumX> Problems with CB36 in recent Nightlies
17:57:24 <IvanS> Thanks everyone for the help! And many thanks for everyone who makes this great game. I've also just donated 5 € by paypal, I know it's not much but for the moment I have a very thin wallet, like many ppl here in Spain. have a good year everyone.
18:01:27 <Alberth> your welcome :) and thank you for the donation.
18:04:42 <ZirconiumX> the o and u keys not working?
18:07:00 <andythenorth> vehicles access var 4A to find current railtype
18:07:04 <andythenorth> is that not expensive then?
18:08:14 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: not thinking deeply enough
18:08:17 <planetmaker> well... it cannot be cached
18:11:17 <andythenorth> planetmaker: wasn't there a list of rail type labels somewhere?
18:11:21 <dihedral> how much time is left until branching? - i.e. will there be another beta?
18:11:23 <andythenorth> I thought they were added to newgrf wiki?
18:11:36 <planetmaker> yes, there is. It's linked from the railtypes page
18:12:21 <andythenorth> it seems I need other people to read the wiki pages I am staring at today
18:12:39 <andythenorth> it was a late night and early morning, relatively speaking
18:14:02 <andythenorth> so apart from speed, anything to do with vehicle performance should be handled by the vehicle newgrf? Using cb36 and var 4A?
18:14:20 <andythenorth> this means vehicle grf authors have to maintain a translation table?
18:19:14 * andythenorth puzzles about vehicles and types
18:26:48 <andythenorth> so a vehicle has one type
18:27:28 <andythenorth> and one type only
18:28:10 <planetmaker> and can drive on compatible types, too
18:28:22 <planetmaker> that's why the road type defines a list of compatible types
18:29:01 <andythenorth> I'm trying to figure out how that might work in the case of dirt roads vs. roads vs. highways
18:29:22 <andythenorth> I'll write it out for myself
18:29:28 <planetmaker> the dirt one would be compatible to the others, but they not to dirt
18:29:37 <planetmaker> the dirt vehicles would define dirt as they road type
18:30:02 <planetmaker> s/as they/as their/
18:30:24 <andythenorth> lets say some dirt vehicles were banned from highways
18:30:32 <andythenorth> but highway vehicles can travel on dirt
18:31:02 <planetmaker> then dirt: compatible = normal; highway: compatible = normal, dirt
18:32:18 <andythenorth> ok that makes sense
18:32:40 <andythenorth> as long as labels don't spiral into zillions of definitions, it's all sane
18:33:15 <planetmaker> you can't avoid that. But that's newgrf authors' responsibility
18:38:35 <andythenorth> not possible to do something like preventing large trucks in city centres (based on weight, not a specific type)
18:40:19 <Alberth> does not sound like something you'd want to enforce, what if through the city center is the only road available?
18:41:17 <andythenorth> probably not a wise idea
18:41:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: you can do that also via newgrf without adding that explicitly
18:41:46 <andythenorth> planetmaker: I wasn't thinking the game should do that - just testing the newgrf spec ;)
18:41:49 <planetmaker> "just" define your trucks on the "heavy" road and make a road newgrf "heavy" which is not compatible with the road type in cities
18:42:00 <planetmaker> without newgrf spec addition
18:42:11 <andythenorth> and all roads out of town have to be built for 'heavy'
18:42:41 <planetmaker> probably sand mixed with corn flower or so
18:43:12 <Alberth> HEQS vehicles use surprisingly often dirt roads :)
18:44:09 <ZirconiumX> PM there was a spilt load over all of the road
18:44:53 <planetmaker> Alberth: but those don't use the corn flower dirt ;-) - they use real dirt. :-P
18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21689 /trunk/src/lang/ (italian.txt serbian.txt traditional_chinese.txt):
18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: traditional_chinese - 73 changes by josesun
18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: italian - 1 changes by lorenzodv
18:45:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: serbian - 1 changes by etran
18:49:39 * andythenorth discards various elaborate schemes for roads
18:49:46 <andythenorth> way too complicated
18:53:55 * ZirconiumX puts an extra few pounds on the table
18:54:11 *** rhaeder has joined #openttd
18:55:06 *** DanMacK has joined #openttd
18:56:18 <DanMacK> Server crash, haven't been able to get online for nearly 3 hours
18:56:54 <DanMacK> on the bright side, I was getting paid $18/hr to sit here :P
18:57:43 <DanMacK> now for more spriting
18:58:30 <andythenorth> so road types seems to overlap rail types
18:58:43 * andythenorth wonders about water types :P
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19:01:07 <ABCRic> maybe some futuristic stuff
19:01:17 <ABCRic> of different altitudes
19:01:31 <ZirconiumX> Ground-effect and airbourne
19:01:34 <ABCRic> and floating stations :)
19:01:43 <ZirconiumX> hovercraft is airplane
19:01:52 <ABCRic> and buildings over buildings :D
19:02:15 <andythenorth> planetmaker: found a problem
19:02:38 <andythenorth> a 'track' road type and a 'road' road type could both define custom catenary
19:02:53 <Terkhen> trains win by default ;)
19:03:12 <andythenorth> Terkhen: 'track' in this case == trams or similar
19:03:30 <andythenorth> this not an issue for rail types because there's only one type per tile
19:04:01 <andythenorth> I guess one would have to take preference
19:04:57 <planetmaker> andythenorth: allow only tracks to have catenary maybe?
19:05:13 <andythenorth> fails for trolley buses, trolley trucks, and some mining trucks
19:05:18 <andythenorth> one just has to win
19:05:19 <planetmaker> having tracks without catenary and road vehicles with concurrently will not be needed too often
19:05:25 <planetmaker> then trolley just define invisible tracks
19:05:52 <andythenorth> that would block trams and trolley bus using same tile
19:07:01 <planetmaker> I see no big problem there
19:09:33 * DanMacK came into the middle of this conversation
19:10:24 * ZirconiumX pushes DanMacK back out again
19:10:26 <DanMacK> Are we discussing roadtypes?
19:11:32 <planetmaker> andythenorth: as I understand it, they can cross at best
19:11:52 <planetmaker> and then it's not a problem, just draw both
19:12:12 <planetmaker> just like your monorail and tram tracks ;-)
19:12:30 <andythenorth> seems australia had trams and trolleys sharing catenary....but that's by the by
19:16:02 * andythenorth thinks there must be a nice solution to this issue
19:16:11 <andythenorth> it's only a graphical problem in this case
19:30:35 <ZirconiumX> there probably isn't
19:36:15 <andythenorth> draw catenary twice, it's the players problem if it looks rubbish?
19:42:56 <Alberth> doesn't a road type have catenary by itself?
19:43:27 <andythenorth> Alberth: I think that's the logical answer
19:43:49 <andythenorth> the issue is that for a tile, there can be a 'road' road type and a 'track' road type
19:43:59 <andythenorth> so 2x catenary would be drawn
19:44:04 <andythenorth> which might look lame
19:44:17 <Alberth> which makes it possibly not correct, NewGRFs tend to do things differently than 'logical' :)
19:44:33 <andythenorth> but if I was a newgrf author, I'd either make sure my catenary fitted together, or just use one type
19:45:18 <andythenorth> makes me wonder if 'road' road type and 'track' track type is correct....
19:45:21 <Alberth> but in different directions
19:45:37 <planetmaker> andythenorth: how do you make sure that your trolley catenary fits my tram cateneries?
19:45:48 <planetmaker> both the Geneva and the Berlin type? ;-)
19:45:49 <andythenorth> and that's one of my worries
19:46:08 <andythenorth> for rail types, there's fewer reasons to mix grfs
19:46:12 <planetmaker> that's why I'd not allow two road types with catenary on one tile in the same direction
19:46:19 <andythenorth> but I think road types might tend to come along with vehicle sets
19:46:37 <andythenorth> I think just allow it to look bad
19:47:14 <andythenorth> there's so much bad looking newgrf stuff already, we don't damage the spec to try and impose taste do we?
19:50:11 <planetmaker> andythenorth: specs cannot enforce taste
19:50:58 <andythenorth> so I think allow two types of catenary per tile *if* the sprite sorter / map can handle it
19:51:20 <andythenorth> I have read the catenary code, but I'm not sure if it can handle applying two lots of graphics yet
19:51:43 <andythenorth> I think it might need some horrible interleaving as well
19:52:55 <ZirconiumX> polite nudge: what does the existing railway catenary do when noninterconnectabll rails connect?
19:53:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ZirconiumX: why would it do anything?
19:54:10 <Alberth> break horribly, although there is one one standard rail type with catenaty, so no way to tell
19:54:38 <ZirconiumX> so why should two noninterconnectable catenary typres intersect, I think it should fail
19:54:49 <Eddi|zuHause> well, it would have two possibly different-looking catenary cables connecting
19:55:13 <Alberth> ZirconiumX: at a road-crossing? I think not
19:55:15 <andythenorth> the case for rail types is of no use here
19:55:23 <andythenorth> there's only one rail type per tile
19:55:45 <andythenorth> the issue is two sets of catenary on one tile
19:55:46 <ZirconiumX> so there's only one road type per tile
19:55:55 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: well, there is some magic about cantenary on neighbouring tiles
19:56:02 <andythenorth> ZirconiumX: that breaks the existing game
19:56:24 <andythenorth> it means no trams in town
19:56:37 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: expand on 'magic' ??
19:56:45 <Eddi|zuHause> ZirconiumX: that would kinda defeat the point of trams.
19:58:25 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: the rail-catenary code looks at the 4 adjacent tiles, to check if there is catenary as well. if there isn't, it omits some wires to those tiles. makes a visual illusion of catenary and non-catenary rail intersecting
19:59:45 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: does that apply to rail types? I'm testing with nu tracks and seeing no difference at intersections
20:00:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: when i wrote that code, there was only one electrified rail type, i haven't tested with new railtypes yet.
20:01:33 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I see it for default tracks :) nice touch
20:03:59 <ZirconiumX> why don't you apply the catenary sprites, but not the tramtrack sprites
20:05:20 <andythenorth> because it would be a boring source of bug reports by players
20:06:32 <andythenorth> well they were fun suggestions
20:06:39 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: it seems to work with nutracks as well
20:06:57 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: but it will probably cause glitches when two tracks with different catenary connect
20:07:15 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I see it now
20:09:38 <andythenorth> I can't produce glitches with nutracks + uk tracks, but I don't have an exhaustive knowledge of rail type grfs :P
20:09:59 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... in nutracks... the "subway with stuff on top" graphics use animated colours... it's very disturbing...
20:13:36 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: how would you handle having possibility of 2x catenary per tile?
20:14:34 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: i'd probably just "randomly" [i.e. undefined, but deterministic] select one and draw that, ignoring the other type
20:15:03 <Eddi|zuHause> like of the type with the highest ID
20:15:16 <andythenorth> that was my first thought
20:15:22 <andythenorth> most catenary is only a few pixels
20:15:32 <andythenorth> its a bit much to care about which gets drawn
20:16:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm still of the opinion we need 3 roadtypes per tile [or 2 roadtypes and one railtype on crossings]
20:17:18 <Terkhen> road + tram crossing a different type of road
20:18:07 <andythenorth> also two types of 'tram' might cross
20:18:22 <andythenorth> so four per tile
20:18:38 <Terkhen> I can't visualize that many road types crossing, though
20:18:49 <andythenorth> I can, but only on a big map :P
20:19:02 <Eddi|zuHause> 4 is kinda over the top...
20:19:48 <andythenorth> direction 1: dirt road + overhead cable car skip; direction 2: standard road + tram
20:20:17 <andythenorth> tramway + busway; highway + overhead monorail
20:20:44 <andythenorth> athough I discount the overhead stuff as crazy hacks with at least nine hundred problems
20:21:02 <DanMacK> Look at Zehyris/ overhear Monorail
20:23:04 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: in the implementation, why limit it to three?
20:23:23 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: mainly consideration of map array space.
20:23:28 <andythenorth> (without understanding code), seems easier to permit two types direction 1, two types in direction 2
20:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: you need 4 bits for the roadtype ID and 4 bits for the "bits"
20:32:40 <andythenorth> 3 basic road types is already implemented iirc?
20:33:03 <andythenorth> road + tram + empty slot
20:34:28 <SmatZ> there is no "empty slot" anymore
20:38:10 <Eddi|zuHause> it was planned once, but that was before the current development of "road types"
20:42:09 <Wolf01> a seller near my town is cheating, he is selling his three-wheeler now, he used it to sell oranges from sicily
20:45:27 <andythenorth> I have a three wheeler :)
20:55:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i once had a three wheeler...
20:55:22 <Eddi|zuHause> ... when it was appropriate for my age...
20:57:41 <Wolf01> here it is used mostly by aged people or for work
21:07:48 <dihedral> console command for servers to set / reset a company password
21:10:01 <dihedral> heh - and i forgot all about the admin network needing an update :-D
21:10:10 <Rubidium> is all the method moving really necessary?
21:10:31 *** stAckedflow has joined #openttd
21:10:40 <Rubidium> as it distracts in that diff from what really changes and what is just moved around
21:11:44 <planetmaker> dihedral: the method static const char *GenerateCompanyPasswordHash(const char *password) is basically deprived of all functionality, only returning the return value of another function. That's pointless
21:12:16 <SmatZ> +const char *NetworkGeneratePasswordHash (const
21:12:25 <SmatZ> remove space betwee h and (
21:13:07 <dihedral> planetmaker, either that or i use _password_server_id and _password_game_seed all over the place
21:13:26 <planetmaker> dihedral: you can use default values
21:13:52 <dihedral> which default values?
21:14:19 <planetmaker> _password_server_id and _password_game_seed
21:14:58 <planetmaker> or is one of those an actual DoCommand?
21:15:17 <dihedral> they both are variables available in the client code
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21:15:36 <dihedral> i basically thought i'd leave the wrapper in place
21:15:43 <dihedral> but i can remove the function totally
21:16:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r21690 /trunk/src/screenshot.cpp: -Fix: the top of a tall building standing on a hill at the top of the map could be cut off in a giant screenshot
21:16:41 <dihedral> who in their straight mind actually makes giant screenshots? :P
21:17:36 <__ln__> dihedral: why is it in the menu if straight people don't use it?
21:18:41 * andythenorth starts to understand why road types is a big task
21:19:19 <andythenorth> the existing fusion of road + tram tracks seems to require quite some number of small edge cases to be handled nicely
21:20:16 <planetmaker> damn. 'x' doesn't work on screenshots...
21:22:05 <andythenorth> what might be better?
21:22:26 <andythenorth> first attempt the newgrf side, then progressively work through road code to work with it?
21:22:36 <andythenorth> or work through road code, then handle newgrf later?
21:23:06 <andythenorth> in either case, testing will be a pain in the ass
21:24:19 <dihedral> planetmaker, lol :-P
21:24:58 * DanMacK would say start with the road code
21:25:26 <DanMacK> Although you'd need the newgrf specs to test...
21:25:27 <planetmaker> andythenorth: I'd first start with the c code.
21:25:37 <DanMacK> yeah, it is a pain in the ass :P
21:26:23 <andythenorth> when I say 'newgrf' I mean the equivalent of newgrf_railtype.cpp and hangers on
21:26:45 <andythenorth> then making it appear in menus and such
21:27:18 <andythenorth> otherwise I lack test data
21:32:05 <andythenorth> level crossing with tram tracks requires a road piece to also be drawn
21:35:48 * andythenorth has many fun adventures in rail_cmd.cpp
21:37:21 <planetmaker> andythenorth: level crossing srpites are separte
21:37:54 <planetmaker> at least I'd ask the authors for dedicated sprites. Just like railtypes
21:38:28 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21691 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp: -Codechange: make sure GenerateCompanyPasswordHash() behaves deterministically when/if the value of NETWORK_SERVER_ID_LENGTH is changed
21:38:35 <andythenorth> I wonder if there are other reasons why must have ROADTYPE_ROAD on the crossing tile
21:39:28 <andythenorth> also more fun edge cases - trying to build a rail crossing on half tile road is handled very differently to building on half tile tramway
21:40:15 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21692 /trunk/src/ (console_cmds.cpp network/network_client.cpp): -Cleanup: remove unused extern declaration of HashCurrentCompanyPassword(), make it static
21:40:35 <andythenorth> but...rail_cmd.cpp and road_cmd.cpp are *way* easier to make sense of than industry_cmd.cpp
21:41:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: smatz * r21693 /trunk/src/network/network_client.cpp: -Codechange: no need to cast char[] to const uint8*
21:41:30 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: afair all these troubles are map-space related
21:42:02 <SmatZ> it's not possible to draw bars alone
21:42:15 <SmatZ> you have to draw the road so bars are drawn
21:43:16 <andythenorth> is it simply because the dirt sprites under the tram track aren't available in a crossing-shaped version?
21:43:20 <andythenorth> or is it map space?
21:43:31 <andythenorth> I can't tell from the rail_cmd.cpp alone
21:44:58 <Yexo> a tram can turn around on a tile with 1 road-bit, but not on a tile that has 2 road-bits in the same direction
21:45:01 <andythenorth> tramtracks.pcx does not include the needed crossing sprites, but maybe that's a symptom, not the cause
21:45:20 <SmatZ> there are about 12 free bits for level crossing tile
21:45:30 <SmatZ> so map array shouldn't be the limitation
21:45:32 <Yexo> so extending a 1-bit tram track to 2-bits is probably unwanted, while for normal roads there are no side-effects
21:47:39 <andythenorth> that makes sense w.r.t to when crossings are constructed
21:47:48 <SmatZ> dihedral: please update your diff with changes commited to trunk recently :)
21:48:03 <dihedral> guess what i am doing :-P
21:48:05 <andythenorth> does it explain the 'tram tracks must build road at crossings' issue though
21:49:17 <andythenorth> how do I search google for meaning for meaning of |= in C++? :P
21:49:27 <SmatZ> /* Always add road to the roadtypes (can't draw without it) */
21:49:33 <SmatZ> sounds like drawing is the issue
21:49:35 <Yexo> something like "c++ operators" ?
21:50:26 <SmatZ> dihedral: nope, 32, it would have no meaning for (NETWORK_SERVER_ID_LENGTH - 1)
21:50:35 <SmatZ> because i is always < (NETWORK_SERVER_ID_LENGTH - 1)
21:51:29 <dihedral> (_password_game_seed >> (i % 32)) <- i mean that
21:52:04 <SmatZ> if 'i' would ever be >= 32, the code would be undefined
21:54:31 * andythenorth wonders if it's just that MakeRoadCrossing never got extended to handle tram tracks without road?
21:54:44 <andythenorth> or if it's map stuff
21:56:34 <Alberth> Cmd* functions do the actual operations in the game
21:57:22 <SmatZ> if you remove that | ROADTYPE_ROAD, there won't be road, yet it still will be drawn
22:01:07 <andythenorth> so drawing crossings is handled only by ROAD_TILE_CROSSING
22:01:23 <andythenorth> there's no duplicate in rail_cmd.cpp? (would seem odd)
22:01:53 <Yexo> there doesn't have to be a duplicate in rail_cmd.cpp because a crossing always has road
22:02:36 <andythenorth> DrawTile_Road is what I meant instead of ROAD_TILE_CROSSING
22:02:40 <andythenorth> copy paste error :P
22:05:16 *** supermop has joined #openttd
22:06:36 <SmatZ> +const char *NetworkGeneratePasswordHash (
22:06:42 <dihedral> please comment again on the hagrrr
22:06:47 <SmatZ> you missed the declaration when removing that space :)
22:06:49 <dihedral> GenerateCompanyPasswordHash <-
22:07:26 <dihedral> is that function ok or should i remove it, and use _password_server_id and _password_game_seed in all it's places instead
22:08:54 <dihedral> i.e. use GenerateCompanyPasswordHash(const char*) or NetworkGenerateCompanyPasswordHash(const char*, const char*, uint32)
22:11:03 <SmatZ> how many times is it called?
22:11:44 <SmatZ> I (personally) would prefer to add _password_server_id and _password_game_seed, but it's just my personal opinion, so don't do it :)
22:11:55 <SmatZ> there are people who would prefer default argument value
22:12:04 <SmatZ> and they are probably in majority :)
22:17:15 <andythenorth> seems like DrawTile_Road could be rewritten to avoid drawing unnecessary road under tram tracks
22:17:25 <dihedral> ops... missing something ;-P
22:17:35 <andythenorth> DrawRoadBits handles it correctly for normal tiles
22:17:55 <andythenorth> probably not a bed time task though :P
22:18:17 <Alberth> so no bed for you in the next hours andy! :p
22:19:25 <andythenorth> I'll guess I'll spend all of tomorrow rewriting it, then find there is some tiresome use of a bit somewhere that means it's impossible :D
22:19:33 <andythenorth> ho well good night
22:19:36 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
22:50:25 <SmatZ> nice, I managed to SIGSEGV dosbox :)
22:50:40 <SmatZ> now, what was broken in the code it executed...
22:51:21 <SmatZ> it doesn't like self-modifying code it seems
22:51:43 <Alberth> that was quite common in those days
22:54:25 <dihedral> that patch also fixes a bug where the admin port was not sent an update when a password for a company changed
22:56:30 <SmatZ> and of course, that crash is not reproducible...
23:00:54 <elmz_> argh, I have a lot of trains running along a track with uniformly spaced signals
23:01:04 <elmz_> all trains have the same top speed
23:01:17 <elmz_> there are no turns that slow trains down
23:01:47 <elmz_> but still trains catch up with the train in front
23:02:13 <planetmaker> you found the 'bug' that diagonals are shorter than horinzontals and verticals
23:03:06 <elmz_> and how do I avoid this problem?
23:04:35 <elmz_> I guess I don't then ^^
23:08:41 <dihedral> planetmaker, i was going to suggest full and empty cargo wagons :-P
23:08:45 <SmatZ> place signals with higher density near/in diagonal tracks :)
23:09:57 *** DanM is now known as DanMacK
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23:30:01 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r21694 /trunk/src/ (settings.cpp table/settings.h): -Fix: changing AI settings ingame was impossible when the difficulty level was other than custom
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