IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-17
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05:23:06 <Eddi|zuHause2> hm... furry-hot-water-bag-that-makes-miau-when-i-turn-over...
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08:29:43 <dihedral> can bananas not be placed into some other entities hands, let it be turned into a payed service and the other entity donates that money to openttd :-D
08:29:59 <dihedral> seeing as there are people who want to pay for openttd anyway :-D
08:31:25 <Alberth> a good place to post a reminder in Januari :p
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08:35:39 <dihedral> "once your donation has been verified, you are free to download the opensource program OpenTTD - if you wish to play the game without any donation, you have to compile it yourself" :-D
08:35:53 <dihedral> that way you could move the compile farm into the same entities hands :-P
08:37:03 <dihedral> you'd probably find yourself soon in the position of owning 3 ESX servers + an EMC :-P
08:37:29 <dihedral> or only 1.0.5 being used :-P
08:41:14 * Alberth pours a lot of christmas spirit over dihedral
08:42:28 <planetmaker> with cinamon and vanilla flavour?
08:44:56 <Alberth> with money grabbing reduction flavour
08:46:00 <planetmaker> the important part is: OpenTTD's license would make that approach obsolete in no time
08:47:48 <dihedral> Alberth, you can get the compiled game for half a donation? :-P
08:48:06 <Alberth> I think that if you ask to optionally donate 1 euro or so for a download, many people would pay it
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08:49:00 <Alberth> with bananas you have a bigger problem in the sense that the data there is owned by the authors of the newgrfs
08:49:46 <Alberth> dihedral: for half a donation, you only get the even bytes
08:49:55 <planetmaker> you just call it "service charge" and then all is fine again :-P
08:52:05 <Kurenin> is there speculation around making ottd a paid for thing then?
08:52:18 <Alberth> why did someone not finish the command-line parsing :/
08:52:35 <dihedral> Kurenin, no, not openttd, but the services you access in order to get hold of openttd :-P
08:52:53 <Alberth> Kurenin: no, just a random discussion due to a thread at the forums
08:53:23 <planetmaker> Kurenin: definitely no
08:54:11 <Kurenin> honestly ottd would be the perfect thing to be distributed via peer to peer
08:54:47 <dihedral> openttd.org itself should not have more money than it needs to pay for the hosting etc.
08:55:09 <dihedral> i do not think it would be a good think if it owned a stack of cash
08:55:14 <Alberth> Kurenin: we are not stopping you from offering openttd at some torrent thing
08:55:54 <planetmaker> one could take just the official binaries and distribute them there
08:56:04 <planetmaker> If so, it'd be better than distributing self-built ones
08:56:19 <dihedral> Alberth, but we would decline support if the source of the OpenTTD binary was a torrent :-P
08:57:27 <planetmaker> we wouldn't know what version the torrent is
08:57:31 <Alberth> dihedral: we do keep an eye on not having too much money in stock
08:57:37 <planetmaker> We can only support what we release
08:57:58 <dihedral> it would be silly if you did not
08:58:04 <dihedral> big brother is watching you :-P
08:58:56 <Alberth> oh that's what the big helicopter is for, that flies over my house every now and then :p
08:59:13 <dihedral> i really dislike the agency :-D
08:59:54 <dihedral> they emphasized that i should keep a secure distance to openttd :-)
09:00:34 <Alberth> too late, you played it already, so you are already infected
09:00:46 <dihedral> i wrote patches since too
09:01:34 <Kurenin> I bought tt a week after it was released
09:01:36 <dihedral> i would not mind trying to get an interview with CS :-P
09:01:41 <Kurenin> and have played it on and off since
09:01:49 <Kurenin> i really don't know what the attraction is
09:01:53 <Kurenin> honestly it makes no sense
09:02:28 <dihedral> are you talking of tt, ttd, <place any game you can think of here>
09:02:29 <Alberth> dihedral: do you think CS has anything interesting to say?
09:02:46 <Kurenin> I don't think he does tbh
09:02:59 <dihedral> you do not have to talk to him ;-)
09:03:09 <planetmaker> well. OpenTTD doesn't hire in that sense. But it accepts good patches which improve gameplay experience :-)
09:03:13 <dihedral> i would really be interested how he feels about these projects
09:03:24 <planetmaker> which in a continued form may lead to a "hire" ;-)
09:03:31 <Alberth> Kurenin: the goal of all games is just to play them, and have a good time. That's all.
09:03:40 <dihedral> 'gameplay experience' .... does that include administration :-D
09:04:10 <dihedral> then i feel happily addressed :-P
09:04:16 <planetmaker> running a MP server is definitely part of the game play :-)
09:04:27 <dihedral> kicking players is too :-D
09:04:30 <Kurenin> I sent Chris Sawyer a letter when I was 10 ;|
09:04:38 <dihedral> just depends on the definition of 'game'
09:04:57 <dihedral> Kurenin, the letter most likely reached CS
09:05:44 <dihedral> i would assume the agency to have a bit of influence on that
09:05:55 <Kurenin> I do wonder what happened to him though
09:06:01 <dihedral> which is why i would not mind having a chat with CS
09:06:09 <Kurenin> I know he was involved in some legal battles related to the rollercoaster tycoon franchise
09:06:12 <Alberth> oh, he wrote RCT, RCT2, and Locomotion
09:06:17 <Kurenin> but that was almost a decade ago
09:06:36 <dihedral> he was involved in RCT3 too
09:06:40 <Kurenin> I don't know why but Locomotion, in my opinion, was inferior to TTD
09:06:58 <dihedral> and the legal battle was between atari and marjaqu (or however it is written) in the end
09:07:03 <dihedral> and ended a few years ago
09:07:07 <Alberth> in game play yes, in looks definitely no
09:08:57 <Alberth> Kurenin: and for an honest comparison, you should compere original TTD and Locomotion, rather than with OpenTTD. In that case, I am not so sure Locomotion is worse in game play (mostly because I never played Locomotion)
09:10:53 <planetmaker> hehe, indeed. Years refining the UI helped usability and gameplay quite a bit when playing OpenTTD compared to TTD; I never seem to be able to do what I want in a nice way when testing TTD
09:10:57 <Kurenin> while we're on the subject
09:11:19 <Kurenin> this, vs the original ttd o:
09:11:26 <Kurenin> I could never get into railroad tycoon
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09:14:17 <dihedral> planetmaker, how many frames does that camera shot in a second again?
09:14:48 <dihedral> nono - that big fat whapping thing at work
09:15:14 <planetmaker> Oh. 1 Megapixel at 1 kiloHertz. And proportionally scaled faster when reducing the image size
09:15:25 <planetmaker> up to about 60k fps
09:15:45 <planetmaker> our Japanese friends have a camera with a million fps ;-)
09:16:03 <Alberth> Kurenin: I never played RT, although I do have the CD somewhere. I did play RT2 though, which was nice (but just like OpenTTD, I never played for more than some hours)
09:16:32 <Alberth> planetmaker: good for studying falling of snow flakes :)
09:16:45 <planetmaker> Alberth: indeed. No joke :-)
09:16:50 <planetmaker> and collisions of them
09:18:47 <Kurenin> do any of you find it odd
09:18:57 <Kurenin> that very often you'll have a station larger than a city, in ottd
09:19:03 <planetmaker> I find that two is the only true odd prime
09:19:35 <planetmaker> Kurenin: that's only odd when you expect realism.
09:19:48 <planetmaker> But this is a game and scale is arbitrary on many accounts. So: no
09:19:56 <Alberth> Kurenin: no, OpenTTD is not a scaled version of the real world, it just looks that way
09:20:01 <Kurenin> it just occured to me that my station, which by all accounts isn't THAT big
09:20:11 <Kurenin> it's larger than the town it services
09:20:22 <Kurenin> and the network of track leading to it takes up more space than the town ¬_¬
09:20:44 * Alberth ponders to add a restriction to OpenTTD to forbid large stations near small towns
09:21:12 <Kurenin> that'd be nonsensical unless you were to scale down station and track size/scale up town size
09:21:20 <Alberth> Kurenin: scale is totally messed up, such that it plays nice
09:21:27 <planetmaker> Alberth: I don't think
09:21:46 <planetmaker> You'd get in conflict with the large mining station which incidentially is near the village
09:22:35 <Alberth> planetmaker: that's called a 'challenge' :p
09:22:47 <planetmaker> something like "noise level" doesn't make IMHO much sense for other means of transport. He...
09:23:39 <Alberth> Kurenin: that link was for you
09:24:10 <Kurenin> I had a great town recently
09:24:17 <Kurenin> it had 4 other towns around it
09:24:17 <dihedral> planetmaker> Alberth: I don't think <- hehe - i assumed you had no brains :-D
09:24:48 <Kurenin> a large rail network, 4 airports, an intercity "underground" style rail network and I had made the terrain to look like manhattan, it was pretty brilliant o:
09:24:57 <planetmaker> It's positronic circuitry. Straight from asimov's roboter stories ;-)
09:25:21 <dihedral> there is no such thing as "underground" in openttd
09:25:37 <dihedral> there are tunnels, there are bridges and there is standard rail
09:25:38 <Alberth> Kurenin: nice, I never have the patience for such things
09:25:43 <Kurenin> there isn't, but there is ,_,
09:26:08 <dihedral> by the way - can trame ways be made 'town ownable'?
09:26:22 <planetmaker> Kurenin: you should try NuTrack's "underground" rail type (you can download that railtype newgrf from online content)
09:26:50 <Alberth> dihedral: then you wouldn't be able to use them?
09:27:24 <Alberth> ie you get IS-like problems
09:28:47 <Alberth> Hmm, makes me wonder, perhaps we could fine companies that block roads with 'traffic obstruction tickets'
09:29:08 <planetmaker> how do you define 'block road'?
09:29:25 <planetmaker> I can just stop two vehicles on the two directions
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09:29:44 <Alberth> a vehicle is stopped for extended time, not at a road stop
09:29:56 <Alberth> and you are not loading actively
09:30:03 <Kurenin> are you talking about nefarious tactics in online?
09:30:09 <Alberth> (ie no cargo is being transfered)
09:31:01 <dihedral> <Alberth> dihedral: then you wouldn't be able to use them? <- you can use roads can you not?
09:31:03 <Alberth> I was more thinking about nasty AIs that throw in a few hundred road vehicles that cause big traffic jams, but in MP games it may be nice too
09:31:08 <dihedral> no matter who they are from
09:31:54 <Alberth> dihedral: hmm good point.
09:32:05 <Kurenin> hmm, never played with AI
09:32:09 <Kurenin> well not since 1995 or so o:
09:32:10 <dihedral> seeing as trams are RV's i thought that could make sense
09:32:23 <Kurenin> and my tactic right now was to actually just destroy their road vehicles with a train
09:32:25 <dihedral> and would be a first step towards an IS system
09:32:35 <dihedral> at least in the sense that it would work for trams sharing tracks
09:32:52 <Alberth> I wonder what the main problem in IS is, then
09:33:00 <dihedral> possibly let the town build tram ways once it reaches a certain size
09:33:33 <dihedral> that one can change the tracks others are using and hinter them from getting anywhere - even to a depot
09:33:38 <Alberth> I would expect so, why else would you have town-owned tram tracks?
09:34:13 <Alberth> perhaps a subsidized 'provide transport in the town' would be nice
09:37:45 <dihedral> and possibly teach it to build tram tracks in a certain way
09:38:08 <dihedral> so that not every road piece in the center has been 'tramsmogified' :-P
09:38:43 <planetmaker> [10:32] <Alberth> I wonder what the main problem in IS is, then <-- it's like many ways to exploit another company. But actually only, a) if they share and b) if one player is not around
09:38:54 <planetmaker> It's pretty save if you don't share - nothing changes there
09:39:19 <dihedral> is there a free bit in the map array regarding rails / stations ?
09:40:01 <dihedral> forbidding change to rails with that bit
09:40:24 <dihedral> but you would probably need more
09:40:26 <Alberth> ask santa claus (or look in the current bit allocations)
09:41:13 <Alberth> why are changes always called 'newX' ?
09:41:35 <Hirundo> because TTDP has lots of newX?
09:43:04 <Alberth> we could exchange bits in the map for bits in mapsizes :p
09:43:27 <dihedral> perhaps a new map array would not be a bad project for 1.2
09:43:44 <dihedral> just the design would be quite a crucial point of discussion
09:43:51 <Hirundo> 'new map array' would do what?
09:44:00 <dihedral> might require Rubidium to be unemployed a bit longer :-P
09:44:28 <dihedral> a new map array that did not impose such limitations?
09:44:51 <dihedral> i.e. a possibility to always extend meta data for certain objects
09:45:07 <Alberth> dihedral: You are day-dreaming, WAKE UP!
09:45:48 * dihedral need array map data object meta new make team Mr. T
09:46:17 <dihedral> Alberth, what is wrong with the general idea?
09:46:49 <Hirundo> Removing the concept of wormholes, thus introducing off-map tiles seems the most useful to me
09:47:17 <planetmaker> iirc michi_cc has a repo with such implementation (stacked tiles)
09:47:33 <Alberth> nah, having more than one layer of tiles would be nice
09:47:56 <planetmaker> bridges with signals?
09:48:25 <planetmaker> it doesn't mean necessarily to be visually stacked. Just... for things like bridges
09:48:43 <dihedral> so if you make 2 layers you can make more
09:48:47 <planetmaker> oh... I read a 'not' in your statement, Alberth ;-)
09:49:38 <Alberth> planetmaker: I was generalizing the suggestion by Hirundo
09:49:42 <dihedral> hehe - each hightlevel introduces a new layer :-P
09:49:52 <dihedral> the hillier a map, the bigger the save game :-D
09:50:26 <Alberth> you could also have a single surface layer, and additional tiles for every track
09:50:40 <planetmaker> yeah, realized now :-)
09:50:51 <Alberth> ie no tracks => no additional tiles
09:51:00 <planetmaker> that's afaik what michi did
09:51:07 * peter1138 pats his 120MB minecraft world
09:51:27 <peter1138> (and that's compressed)
09:51:44 <dihedral> welcome multiplayer game :-P
09:52:03 <dihedral> "i should be connected in an hour or so"
09:52:56 <peter1138> hmm current world is 30MB
09:53:03 <dihedral> is downloading a map via http faster than downloading it with the ingame protocol?
09:53:07 <peter1138> although the total area is 2544x1440
09:53:33 <dihedral> peter1138, 2544x1440 what
09:54:04 <peter1138> they don't all exist though
09:54:25 <peter1138> x128 high (of course)
09:54:48 <dihedral> and more than 16 colours ^^
09:56:45 <peter1138> hmm, pretty reasonable compression, a chunk is ~80KB, compresses down to 2-3KB
09:57:04 <peter1138> mind you there are a lot of 00s and 01s
09:57:45 <dihedral> i meant the game in general has more than 16 colours
09:58:16 <peter1138> i think that's probably a given since the early 90s
10:02:14 <dihedral> mut not always more than 256 ^^
10:02:30 <dihedral> uh 16bit was also quite popular ^^
10:07:58 <dihedral> i remember a game that would check if you had a colour depth on your desktop of 16 bit, and it would not start otherwise
10:08:04 <dihedral> would only exit with an error message
10:08:36 <dihedral> and you could not force it to start even if you had 32bit (or at that time even 24 bit) set :-P
10:08:57 <Alberth> stupid game, cannot be worth playing
10:11:06 <dihedral> came with the matrox graphics card :-D
10:13:21 <peter1138> that was fairly common
10:13:59 <peter1138> there were even some games that wouldn't run under X11 unless it was a certain bitdepth (usually 8bpp)
10:14:40 <peter1138> DGA was fairly awful, but damn, I could run openttd fast :D
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10:36:55 <peter1138> damn, even 4GB memory runs out these days :s
10:39:41 <Eddi|zuHause> noticed that, too...
10:40:10 * blathijs is still stuck on 1.5G :-(
10:40:19 <Eddi|zuHause> even games that ran fine with 1GB ram + 2GB swap... cause oom with 4GB now
10:42:12 <peter1138> er, well... monodevelop is at 1GB, virtualbox at 640MB (ahh, that magic number...)
10:42:27 <peter1138> email client. 370MB. wtf.
10:47:22 * blathijs has Firefox regularly at 700M or something
10:47:37 <blathijs> with a virtual size of 1500M :-S
10:52:59 <Eddi|zuHause> virtual size isn't really all that conclusive...
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10:58:03 <blathijs> Eddi|zuHause: I know, but given all the swapping that is happening and the amount of swap space used, I guess it's not far from the truth...
11:02:37 <peter1138> my kernel seems to have IO issues as well, which don't help
11:05:39 <blathijs> peter1138: I'm having the same: When heavy IO is happening (say, swapping), my system tends to become quite unresponsive (even to mouse movements sometimes...)
11:10:09 <Alberth> yep, code that handles mouse moving may also get swapped out :)
11:10:11 <peter1138> i created a 40GB file and the machine pretty much looked up
11:10:41 <peter1138> i did find a bug report about it, but can't find it now
11:11:15 <Alberth> I once killed a machine by running 5 compile processes at the same time
11:13:49 <peter1138> in the report someone surmised that it was sata taking up way more cpu than ide ever did
11:14:08 <peter1138> (but then it wouldn't be iowait, would it...)
11:18:25 * blathijs is still on IDE, so I can expect bigger problems when I upgrade to SATA? ;-p
11:21:23 <Eddi|zuHause> some io stuff was fixed in recent kernels, but i don't remember the specifics
11:23:15 <blathijs> I'm already on 2.6.36, so that's pretty recent as well
11:23:23 <blathijs> I should just get a new laptop, I guess
11:23:28 <peter1138> yeah, problem for debian which already chose to use 2.6.32 for its next release... :S
11:24:21 <blathijs> (I can sqeeze in 512MB extra RAM, but that downgrades from DDR400 to DDR266 IIRC..)
11:25:13 <Alberth> it is faster than swap, but that's about all :)
11:25:36 <peter1138> i do have 6GB at home...
11:25:45 <peter1138> haven't managed to fill that yet
11:26:09 <peter1138> hmm, it's even running without any swap at all
11:26:33 * blathijs has a 4GB server as well that never got past 2.5G yet it seems
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12:18:05 <Eddi|zuHause> how come a spam post has 3 views, but i'm the first one to report it?
12:18:49 <blathijs> Other people just ignore it or don't know they can report it somewhere?
12:40:57 <Ammler> Xaroth, dihedral: you can't do things like restart openttd with the admin libs, right?
12:41:43 <Ammler> (nneded to reload downloaded newgrfs on dedicated)
12:43:03 <Ammler> so also with the libs, there will still be a script needed to manage those tasks
12:43:41 <Yexo> Ammler: why not use the console command rescan_newgrf?
12:47:18 <Ammler> hmm, not backported, but nice to know about, thanks for the hint
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12:48:03 <Ammler> then we will need to restart only on update anymore in future :-)
12:48:20 <planetmaker> which is good news :-)
12:54:15 <planetmaker> wooooooo - hello wolf
12:54:26 <planetmaker> (sorry, I'm silly today)
12:55:03 <Ammler> is wolf a italian word for?
12:56:52 <Ammler> Yexo: rescan does not answer a "successful" :-)
12:57:54 <Yexo> Ammler: do any console commands do that?
12:58:15 <Yexo> normally they are succesful when no error message is shown
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13:00:00 <Ammler> Yexo: SmatZ added some, yes :-)
13:00:11 <Ammler> like for the screenshot
13:01:47 <Yexo> does the screenshot show anything in the console?
13:01:51 <Yexo> I can't find the code for that
13:02:21 <SmatZ> Yexo: all "red box messages" can go into console with appropriate setting
13:03:25 <SmatZ> void ShowErrorMessage(StringID summary_msg, StringID detailed_msg, WarningLevel wl, int x, int y)
13:03:36 <SmatZ> the screenshot just happens to have higer WarningLevel
13:03:42 <SmatZ> (I think it works that way)
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13:46:29 <Ammler> around 1m fresh snow here
13:51:32 <__ln__> person at Grand Canyon national park's gate said they had 10 feet of snow last winter
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14:10:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i meant 2cm of NEW snow. there was obviously some leftover from the last time...
14:26:13 <dihedral> and do not search the logs to see how often i mentioned that line :-P
14:26:44 <dihedral> SmatZ, i am not a fan of no-brainer jobs :-P
14:27:11 <dihedral> and the boss and i agreed that either he kicks me out or i quit - so he kicked me out - that way i get money from the government :-D
14:27:49 <dihedral> well - i am not unemployed until the 1st Jan
14:28:00 <dihedral> which can be enough time to find a job
14:28:10 <Eddi|zuHause> [Montag, 18. Oktober 2010] [16:14:15] <dihedral> i hate this job ...
14:28:17 <Eddi|zuHause> [Dienstag, 13. Juli 2010] [09:52:57] * dih is looking for a job
14:28:34 <Eddi|zuHause> [Mittwoch, 3. Februar 2010] [22:54:19] <dih> Noldo, getting a job, visiting my sick dad,
14:28:50 <Eddi|zuHause> [Di Jun 30 2009] [23:27:21] <dihedral> oh my - i love my job :-)
14:28:54 <dihedral> yeah - but on the 13th July it was a different job
14:29:11 <dihedral> i.e. first half of the year i quit because the boss sucked
14:29:22 <Eddi|zuHause> i think we got the gist of it ;)
14:29:25 <dihedral> second half of the year the job and the resource management of the boss sucked
14:30:18 <dihedral> not going to have a boss shout at me repeatedly for not being at work at 10AM if my contract clearly states that i have flexi time
14:30:44 <dihedral> and i was one of 5 who quit (that month)
14:31:22 <dihedral> all developers (apart from one) quit within one month from eachother :-D
14:31:29 <Eddi|zuHause> oh... i have another one
14:31:31 <Eddi|zuHause> [Do Mär 13 2008] [19:12:04] <dih> i am thinking of applying for another job
14:31:32 <planetmaker> flexi time means not that you don't have to be at you office on a certain time latest...
14:32:14 <dihedral> planetmaker, only if communicated somewhere
14:37:49 <Wolf01> I quit on 1th july this year too :P (I'm not a OTTD dev, but I was a dev at work)
14:41:35 <Eddi|zuHause> err... is the xkcd more shaded than it was this morning?
14:42:23 <Eddi|zuHause> good... means i'm not THAT crazy yet...
14:42:40 <planetmaker> I also think that the spheres got more colour
14:42:54 <planetmaker> actually IMHO not to their better
14:43:20 <Eddi|zuHause> you just don't understand it ;)
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14:45:06 <Eddi|zuHause> you know, a "heap" is a special tree where each branch fulfills the same relational test [i.e. each child is "smaller" than its parent]
14:45:27 <SmatZ> the joke is in multiple meanings of words "tree" and "heap"
14:46:03 <SmatZ> I don't like such jokes :p
14:46:26 <Eddi|zuHause> [you then can apply further requirements, like being balanced]
14:48:14 <SmatZ> sometimes when reading xkcd, I say myself "that crazy guy is like me!"
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14:48:19 <SmatZ> luckily not this time :D
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14:48:30 <planetmaker> good. And how does that now relate to the fact that I liked the less-coloured versions of the spheres better and how does that show in your eyes a lack of understanding?
14:48:58 <Eddi|zuHause> only the alt text is kinda weird... reapplying the heap condition on removing the root element is not that time consuming. you only need to sort the direct children and declare the largest one the new root
14:49:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: ah, then i misread your line
14:49:30 <SmatZ> oh there is alt text :)
14:50:09 <SmatZ> maybe I would like xkcd more if I knew that
14:50:13 <Eddi|zuHause> i know that feeling ;)
14:50:31 <planetmaker> Some are definitely NOT funny without the alt text
14:51:03 <SmatZ> I thought I am just not geeky enough :P
14:52:14 <planetmaker> well. Some stay boring also with the alt text.
14:53:38 <Eddi|zuHause> ok, a few of them really are not good ;)
14:57:19 <planetmaker> that's not too bad actually ;-)
14:57:51 <SmatZ> it's like... who holds the + part of the diode is apologising to the other person?
14:58:06 <planetmaker> well, current only passes through a diode one-way
14:58:29 <SmatZ> actually it's cathode it seems
14:58:40 <planetmaker> they simply only have one-way to work.
14:58:50 <SmatZ> from the girl to the boy
14:59:13 <planetmaker> physical polarity doesn't really matter in that social context ;-)
14:59:52 <SmatZ> maybe it has something to do with multiple meanings of some words I don't know :p
15:00:19 <planetmaker> well. I understood it the way that he can wait ages for an apology
15:00:30 <planetmaker> whatever the past was like
15:01:09 <SmatZ> level of funnyness: zero
15:01:27 <planetmaker> not too much funnyness there, indeed.
15:08:33 <planetmaker> it's probably the 2nd worst selection / combination of newgrfs I've ever seen
15:10:56 <planetmaker> The first two are obsolete, "OpenGFX - *" must go; OpenGFX+ Trees is overwritten by New Trees. Not sure about any other interferences for vehicles. Might be or not
15:11:05 <planetmaker> Worst was a guy who activated ALL NewGRFs.
15:11:43 <Eddi|zuHause> i thought it was limited to something like 60 ;)
15:11:52 <LordAro> ah. Don't suppose you could find a link? ;)
15:12:31 <planetmaker> yes, 63 or 64 is the limit. I think it was a complaint that he couldn't activate all or some train sets interfered with eachother and base costs were messed up (was without engine pool)
15:13:30 <planetmaker> and no, I've no idea where it was
15:20:05 *** IchGuckLive has joined #openttd
15:20:57 <IchGuckLive> hi all is there atutorial how i can upgrade from normal Disel to elektrikel track and trains ?
15:21:42 <LordAro> deleete the 4 from the link
15:21:52 <LordAro> useless laptop keyboard...
15:22:45 <IchGuckLive> i did this side there is nothing about upgrading !
15:23:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i can't stand modified keyboard layouts
15:23:14 <IchGuckLive> if i remove a station ,the town wiont let me bild another there
15:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> IchGuckLive: there's a "convert" button on the right of the toolbar
15:24:28 <planetmaker> hm, the wiki page on the convert tool still handles the behaviour prior to 0.5.0 :-P
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15:25:10 <planetmaker> "With the introduction of electrified railways in r4152, the convert rail tool offers this fourth option allowing you to convert normal rails to electrified rails." <-- it's not wrong, though ;-)
15:25:45 <SmatZ> if (!IsCompatibleRail(type, totype) && !EnsureNoVehicleOnGround(tile)) continue;
15:25:48 <SmatZ> //if (!IsCompatibleRail(type, totype) && !EnsureNoVehicleOnGround(tile)) continue;
15:25:54 <DanMacK> Is the Build While Paused feature removed from the cheat menu in current trunk versions?
15:26:02 <SmatZ> and expect program crash if you convert track under running train :P
15:26:09 <planetmaker> Look in the adv. settings now, DanMacK
15:26:30 <IchGuckLive> planetmaker: thanks
15:28:15 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i don't think the revision when it was introduced is really relevant...
15:28:28 <Eddi|zuHause> anything that's more than 3 releases ago should be purged from the wiki
15:28:54 <planetmaker> [16:24] <Eddi|zuHause> update it ;) <-- ;-)
15:29:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i never read the wiki.
15:35:01 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... there's total chaos out there... i really fear the time when we'll get a _REAL_ winter for once...
15:36:24 <DanMacK> Question, is .nml compatible w/TTDP or is it an Open only thing?
15:36:42 * DanMacK already had a real winter...
15:36:42 <planetmaker> it's as compatible to TTDP as grfcodec
15:36:46 <Eddi|zuHause> nml is just another way to write .grfs
15:37:00 <Eddi|zuHause> the compatibility is the same
15:37:26 <planetmaker> depends entirely on how you write your newgrf :-)
15:45:36 <Yexo> it depends on what features yo uuse, nml supports plural forms / cases in strings, while ttdpatch does not. If you use this in your language files than resulting grf file will be openttd-only
15:46:02 <Yexo> there might be some other features that will break support with ttdpatch, although in general it should work
15:48:46 <DanMacK> Cool. I don't expect to be coding a grf anytime soon, but you never know... lol
15:49:18 <dihedral> lol? xplane has no 64bit version?
15:49:41 <planetmaker> DanMacK, well, there's a number of NML example newgrfs already out there. And afaik they all work for TTDP, too.
15:50:10 <planetmaker> though... I can't test myself. The vehicle ones. They might fail on account of vehicleIDs.
15:51:33 <planetmaker> not sure whether they do. It would need someone testing ;-)
15:51:53 <planetmaker> at least SwedishRails I know for sure works
15:52:04 <planetmaker> The trees should also work
15:52:12 <planetmaker> airports... not sure.
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15:55:32 <planetmaker> Only empty depots can be converted <-- is that true for non-electric to electric or when rail types are compatible?
15:56:19 <planetmaker> and ehm... sorry. The section on compiling has no place on that page.
15:56:59 * DanMacK can probably test in TTDP, but has used Open for so long...
15:57:09 <planetmaker> converting between rail and erail works nicely also under the trains.
15:57:31 <planetmaker> Maybe you should check out that feature thoroughly before you update the wiki on it with somewhat half-baked knowledge, LordAro
15:57:52 *** |Jeroen| has joined #openttd
15:58:49 <LordAro> i am well aware of how to use it, thank you :p it was just a quick edit to get rid of the glaringly obvious changes you (and others) mentioned a few minutes ago
15:59:27 <planetmaker> you obviously missed that SmatZ was entirely joking about his compilation comment.
15:59:35 <planetmaker> even though it works
16:16:39 *** TheMask96 has joined #openttd
16:17:54 <LordAro> i'll take the lack of response as a yes ;)
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16:40:13 <Belugas> cute... all the programmers are wearing red and green elfe (lutin) hats, with thiny bells on
16:40:22 <Belugas> apart one, who is dressed in santa
16:42:36 <Belugas> he has a much more proeminent abdomen :)
16:45:08 <Belugas> we're having our christmas party tonigh, so we're getting into the mood ;)
16:57:56 <Rachel> Hey guys. Does anyone know wherei can learn about signals? Im reading the wiki now but its confusing as hell.
16:58:16 <planetmaker> learning by doing
16:58:24 <planetmaker> so any server will do
16:58:52 <LordAro> also, the extra links at the bottom of the wiki page
17:00:24 <Rachel> sorry i was disscontected. Thanks for the link
17:07:01 <Alberth> indeed, the wiki has no simple explanation of what to use signals at the Signals page
17:07:41 <Alberth> and Building Signals is not much better
17:11:05 <planetmaker> maybe *someone* could fix that ;-)
17:12:46 <Terkhen> IIRC Fred was on it already
17:13:14 <planetmaker> nah, I think luisa, his girl friend
17:13:44 <planetmaker> he just chatted too much about it ;-)
17:15:53 <LordAro> Alberth: i dunno, the Signals page isn't too bad...
17:17:33 <planetmaker> the description of signal blocks on this kololoris page (or however it was spellt) is unrivaled though
17:18:18 <Alberth> so where is explained what a signal does, and how to use it to have several trains at the same tracks?
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18:33:46 <IchGuckLive> hi all ! I'm stock hou does it come that towns 1.500 people does not accept more then one Trainstation and i can not join another to the 1st
18:34:25 <Wolf01> it's called local authority
18:34:42 <IchGuckLive> Thanks i will google
18:40:45 <IchGuckLive> there is also a big lego animation and trick familie
18:41:09 <IchGuckLive> with the modern cameras you can do your own movie in 1by1frame
18:41:34 <IchGuckLive> or simple use blender3d to make a animaded film sene
18:42:54 <Wolf01> gah, I was looking for the Technic F1 Ferrari, but seem they don't have it on the store :(
18:45:49 *** IchGuckLive has left #openttd
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21534 /trunk/src/lang/ (13 files): (log message trimmed)
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: czech - 29 changes by SmatZ
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 2 changes by silentStatic
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: dutch - 75 changes by habell
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: english_US - 8 changes by Rubidium
18:46:20 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: finnish - 80 changes by USephiroth, jpx_
19:00:23 *** IchGuckLive has joined #openttd
19:01:10 <IchGuckLive> is there any sign to now if i can or cant build a station in the city (local authority refuses)
19:02:05 <DanMacK> Check your rating with the town
19:02:48 *** Brianetta has joined #openttd
19:03:34 <IchGuckLive> DanMacK: TERRIBLE B)
19:04:30 <DanMacK> That makes them happy
19:04:31 <IchGuckLive> i did i did also statue and advertisinf
19:04:42 <DanMacK> Statue adn advertising does nothing IIRC
19:04:51 <IchGuckLive> do ihave to wait some years ?
19:04:56 <DanMacK> trees are the best bet
19:05:57 <IchGuckLive> can i if i got permission cut some trees down then or is this also refused then
19:07:29 <IchGuckLive> what is this sign for in the tarrain menue
19:09:13 <DanMacK> you can cut trees down, but get your rating up first
19:09:32 <DanMacK> plant lots, build your station then go from there
19:09:52 <IchGuckLive> i buyed some tarrain as well to build somthing
19:10:12 <DanMacK> that clears trees though, and drops your rating
19:11:04 <IchGuckLive> i got 1track size 3 and i need to run 8trains into it
19:11:09 <DanMacK> Basically I jsut fill the area with trees
19:11:55 <IchGuckLive> is there a different in the trees to build
19:11:57 <DanMacK> Possibly build it as a run-through station?
19:12:18 <DanMacK> button at the bottom of the trree list "Random Trees"
19:12:31 <IchGuckLive> run-thrue is STRG and connect to the other ?
19:14:01 <IchGuckLive> oh it vent up to Bad
19:16:52 <DanMacK> but yeah, if you have the space, just run the track around as a single line loop and reconnect
19:18:33 *** Devroush has joined #openttd
19:18:34 <IchGuckLive> no thats wars my first attend
19:18:40 *** andythenorth has joined #openttd
19:19:55 <DanMacK> Something liek that :P
19:20:42 <IchGuckLive> but im at the corner so water to 2sides and city to the other
19:28:40 <DanMacK> Possibly build onto the water to create the loop? Only needs to be 2 tiles
19:30:50 <Ammler> DanMacK: if you use ascii art, you should use a font with fixed width ;-)
19:31:02 *** frosch123 has joined #openttd
19:31:50 <Belugas> There are way too many chorus pedals!
19:32:15 <Belugas> each one has a distinct advantage
19:35:24 <Belugas> though i'd get a boss ce-5. but the ce-20 is cool too. the nova modulator is head over hills too
19:35:50 <Belugas> and then, you start digging and you find tons of cool ones
19:36:11 <Belugas> ce-5 does ot have as warm sounds as ce-20
19:36:48 <Belugas> modulator has 3 consecutive engines, so you can mix flanger, chorus, phaser and .. something else, can't rememebnre
19:37:06 <Belugas> but ouch the dollar pocket :(
19:39:07 <Prof_Frink> Is the phaser set on stun or kill?
19:50:26 <supermop> nice someone posted in my thread!
19:50:39 <supermop> that i thought i had fixed
19:51:17 <supermop> oh well need to spend more time with mlss anyway to implement those fences
19:53:45 <andythenorth> evenings by the way
19:54:08 <supermop> is that a coming or going greeting?
19:54:26 <andythenorth> today it is a hello greeting
19:55:17 * andythenorth ponders projects
19:55:30 <andythenorth> what to do what to do
19:55:41 <supermop> want to code a fence for me?
19:57:09 *** LordAro has joined #openttd
20:03:09 <DanMacK> too many projects, too little time...
20:06:45 <Terkhen> it must be contagious :)
20:14:27 <Susi> is there a german channel?
20:14:54 <Alberth> not afaik, but I never looked for it either
20:15:53 <Susi> i want to install dbsetxml on ubuntu
20:16:17 <Susi> can you help me? i do not know how to
20:17:17 <Alberth> working on it :) one moment please
20:18:16 <Alberth> not on bananas, it seems (the online content system)
20:18:28 <Alberth> do you have the grf file already?
20:18:49 <Alberth> do you have other grf files downloaded?
20:19:17 <Susi> im not using bananas, just installed openttd from the reposotory
20:19:46 <Alberth> did you run it already?
20:23:19 <Alberth> I don't know where the program dumps its config file by default. Do you have a ~/.openttd directory (note the ".")
20:23:36 <Susi> is this de the right download?
20:24:13 <Alberth> can you link the post instead?
20:25:51 <Yexo> Susi: that is the firs extension for the dbset, you'll need the normal grf too
20:26:48 <Ammler> dihedral: would that change something on your help willing?
20:27:09 <dihedral> do we have a current count of feminine visitors to the community?
20:27:19 <dihedral> nah - just wondered if we were over 5 yet
20:28:27 <Susi> yep i am female, some girls also like trains :)
20:28:41 <DanMacK> I know of a couple, SAC being the most prominent, although some have come and gone int he emantime
20:29:08 <dihedral> if you rename yourself to _Karen, you could get some additional interest :-D
20:29:59 <Alberth> dihedral: stop harrassing fellow #openttd-ers please
20:30:01 <__ln__> i remember once asking here "does anyone know a female who plays ttd voluntarely"
20:30:26 <dihedral> Alberth, i am not harrassing :-P
20:30:34 <Ammler> some thing, fonsinchen is one, I am still not convinced :-)
20:30:39 <Alberth> Susi: create directory ~/.openttd/data , and put the *.grf files in there
20:31:29 <Susi> hmpf i'ved unzipped dbsetxl.grf to /.openttd and restarted the game
20:31:47 <Susi> but there aren't any extensions listed
20:31:48 <Ammler> Susi: don't miss /data
20:31:54 <andythenorth> is dbsetxl not on bananas?
20:32:06 <andythenorth> and also does no-one miss the massive usability fail with bananas?
20:32:14 <Alberth> nothing starting with "db" :)
20:32:23 <Xaroth> andythenorth: which one?
20:32:30 <andythenorth> what is it called in game?
20:32:38 <Ammler> andythenorth: too much work, as dbsetxl 0.9 is out soon
20:32:44 <Susi> erm there issnt a data dir
20:32:54 <andythenorth> Xaroth: but always it's referred to as bananas...
20:32:56 <DanMacK> It's been "Out soon" for a couple of years now :P
20:33:02 <andythenorth> thereby probably confusing most people
20:33:30 <andythenorth> breaks one of my favourite usability rules: things called a thing but not called that thing
20:33:46 <andythenorth> otherwise known as 'naming of parts'
20:33:59 <DanMacK> Although Michael will come out with an incredible set, so I know it'll be worth waiting for
20:34:15 * andythenorth considers posting a fs report
20:36:41 <Alberth> Susi: after moving the grfs into the data directory, start opentdd, and click the 'newgrf settings' button. you should get a window with the newgrfs listed there. Activate them, and then start a game.
20:37:40 <Alberth> have fun with your new grf :)
20:38:04 <Alberth> oh, the firs version also needs FIRS I guess
20:38:17 <Alberth> do you have that installed too?
20:38:41 <Susi> i have installed dbsetxl and dbset firs extension
20:39:36 <Alberth> I would think that the "dbset firs extension" exists for the purpose of playing with FIRS, the industry set.
20:39:47 <Alberth> You can download that from bananas.
20:40:28 <Susi> I thought dbset firs extension is the FIRS versions that works togehter with db set?!
20:41:15 <Alberth> thinking the other way around is fine too :)
20:41:33 <Alberth> but you probably want to load FIRS as well
20:44:29 <Xaroth> Alberth: what is this opentdd you speak of :o
20:45:01 <Alberth> openttd with a sparkle of opendune
20:46:18 * andythenorth has to do a lot of copy-paste sprite editing
20:56:18 * DanMacK loves copy/paste sprite editing
20:56:34 <andythenorth> DanMacK: in that case I can send you psds for about 12 ships
20:56:51 <andythenorth> 12 rows of sprites in each
20:57:00 <Belugas> life carries on and on AND ON AND ON
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21:28:39 * andythenorth considers scuttling the medium sized coaster in FISH
21:29:41 <andythenorth> have to think about savegame breakage :(
21:30:14 <andythenorth> there are currently three coasters
21:30:22 <andythenorth> the biggest has some quite severe graphical issues
21:30:29 <andythenorth> too big for bounding box - sticks out of depots
21:30:34 <andythenorth> occasionally flickers
21:30:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: if you remove vehicles, you could just make them available in NO_CLIMATE, then existing vehicles will be untouched?
21:30:43 <andythenorth> overlaps land when turning in canals / near coast
21:30:49 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: good plan
21:31:04 <andythenorth> I could remove the big one, give the medium one the capacity of the large one
21:31:05 <Eddi|zuHause> you'll have "dead code" in the GRF then...
21:31:29 <andythenorth> I just redrew the big sprite :(
21:32:34 <Eddi|zuHause> sometimes it's just necessary to break savegame compatibility. 95% of the people who need it for a savegame can get the old grf from bananas
21:33:12 <DanMacK> Possibly shorten the big one slightly?
21:33:26 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: there's a bugreport-ish in the german forum that FIRS makes two stations called "A-Town Factory"
21:33:57 <andythenorth> DanMacK: shortening is more work than redrawing the medium one :)
21:34:01 <andythenorth> maybe I keep the big one
21:34:11 <andythenorth> Eddi|zuHause: I have no idea how that could be fixed
21:34:26 <DanMacK> Keep it for now, I'm sure those of us that use it can accept the odd graphical glitch :P
21:36:51 <Eddi|zuHause> # I want to reconcile, the violence in your heart
21:36:57 <Eddi|zuHause> # I want to recognize, your beauty's not just a mask
21:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> # I want to exorcise, the demons from your past
21:36:59 <Eddi|zuHause> # I want to satisfy, the undisclosed desires in your heart
21:42:34 * andythenorth ponders cc hatch covers for ships?
21:43:48 *** DayDreamer has joined #openttd
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22:05:49 <andythenorth> if I 2CC them, you can do that...
22:05:59 <andythenorth> but you also get oxide chimneys
22:08:52 * DanMacK debates 9/8 or 10/8 long coaches for one of his WIP sets...
22:12:42 *** andythenorth has left #openttd
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22:23:45 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: i think 12/8 is the most you can go without falling into the most critical glitches
22:26:57 <DanMacK> Yeah... I think that 10/8 is a nice length :)
22:34:07 <Eddi|zuHause> nowadays i quickly get annoyed by the passenger wagons being so extremely short
22:34:36 <Eddi|zuHause> i desperately want 16/8 wagons, but i haven't found a "right" way to do it yet.
22:36:19 <Eddi|zuHause> you need to make them from several pieces for anything causing graphical glitches (tunnels, bridges, foundations), you need to make them from one piece in curves, and you need a 22.5° angle, otherwise they stick way out in curves.
22:36:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and it gets really problematic when you have curves on foundations...
22:37:17 <Eddi|zuHause> it's kinda worst case of FS119-ish
22:37:31 <frosch123> hmm, it would have been more fun, if susi used suse :p
22:39:32 <Alberth> a new openttd user that dropped in here
22:40:19 <Lakie> Heh, quite a common distro that...
22:40:35 *** Dreamxtreme has joined #openttd
22:40:43 <Alberth> yep, aimed at newbie users
22:40:59 <Alberth> and quite successful :)
22:44:05 <DanMacK> Eddi, why would you want something that long?
22:44:58 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: if you wanted to balance a vehicle's length to its width, it should be even longer
22:46:01 <DanMacK> If you look at the Czech set though, the longer cars look good
22:46:07 <DanMacK> and they look "right"
22:46:13 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: but basically, i want 2 freight cars ~ 1 passenger car
22:47:00 <DanMacK> Yeah... that'd make sense
22:47:59 <Eddi|zuHause> the plan is: 9m = 6/8, 12m = 8/8, 18m = 12/8, 24m = 16/8
22:48:23 <Eddi|zuHause> those are (roughly) the length of the most wagons i could find
22:48:37 <DanMacK> a 40' boxcar in NARS works out to 23px, so theoretically an 80' coach would be 47
22:49:03 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no clue how much 80 foot is :p
22:50:58 <frosch123> @calc 80 * 12 * 2.54 / 100
22:52:22 <frosch123> hmm, is actually 1' = 12" ? or is it some arbitrary broken value?
22:52:25 <Eddi|zuHause> i think current passenger cars are like 26m, but that's enough of an approximation...
22:52:41 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: yes, 1' = 12"
22:59:52 <DanMacK> wow... alot of differences
23:00:26 <DanMacK> US GP40-2 is 8/8 while an SD70 is 10/8...
23:01:09 <DanMacK> Problem is, long veh's almost need to be done as articulated
23:01:58 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, additional 1/8 in front, and 1/8 in back
23:04:05 <Eddi|zuHause> DanMacK: problem is, if you make the first vehicle invisible, the mouse cursor will get invisible while dragging in depot. so there needs to be additional checks for that
23:05:40 <DanMacK> Yeah, that's how the NARS does the DD40X
23:06:29 <Eddi|zuHause> basically, in depot, the first vehicle part may not be invisible
23:09:36 * DanMacK will have to consult pikka about the coding for that particular loco
23:10:07 <DanMacK> I'm doing a semi-small set based on the Alaska Railroad, and I'd like to use scale length equipment :)
23:10:47 <DanMacK> Just for the hell of it
23:21:34 *** HerzogDeXtEr has joined #openttd
23:40:17 * Lakie ponders if there is a method of changing a text's colour from the textstack without having to write your own texts...
continue to next day ⏵
