IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-12-14
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02:24:18 <Suzari> This happens a lot? >.>
02:24:41 <Suzari> This happens a lot? >.>
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04:33:33 <PulseNeon> Wonder how many "enhanced tunnels" sets exist.
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10:46:22 <_Terkhen_> hmm... lately there has been a lot of spam in the forums
10:47:44 <norbert79> and what about the vikings nearby the spam? :)
10:49:22 <Eddi|zuHause> spam eggs sausage and spam.
10:49:38 <_Terkhen_> sadly it is not the fun kind of spam
10:50:54 <Mortomes|Work> lobster thermidor aux crevettes with a mornay sauce served in the provencale manner with shallots and aubergines, garnished with truffle pate, brandy and with a fried egg on top and SPAM
10:52:46 <Mortomes|Work> You don't like SPAM?
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11:28:22 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... rather use pickle or sqlite?
11:29:25 <SpComb> pickle? Shelve, you mean?
11:29:51 <SpComb> you might pickle stuff inside of an sqlite db
11:30:58 <SpComb> but pickle itself isn't a database, there's no file layout
11:32:06 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, shelve then...
11:32:49 <SpComb> how much concurrency do you need?
11:34:15 <Eddi|zuHause> probably not much yet.
11:34:34 <Eddi|zuHause> but extensibility in the next 5 years might be nice
11:35:41 <SpComb> sqlite might be worth the bother, shelve is a little crude
11:35:46 <Eddi|zuHause> idea is that the facility is currently growing, and the program should nicely evolve at the same rate...
11:36:22 <SpComb> shelve/dbm is only really suitable for fairly well-defined/straightforward key -> value mappings, whereas sqlite is a lot more flexible
11:36:47 <SpComb> and shelve's pickle stuff on top of dbm isn't really all that awesome
11:37:02 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll check out sqlite then
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12:00:45 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... is dev.openttdcoop.org down?
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12:12:58 <[1]Sam> I have a question if noone minds.
12:13:37 <[1]Sam> Whats the latest version of TTD? Can i get a vista compatible versino or will i have to buy an old one and patch it and whatnot
12:13:55 <Eddi|zuHause> interpetation: sup({ord('o'),ord('T'),ord('T'),ord('D')}), result: 111
12:15:04 <Eddi|zuHause> [1]Sam: you go to www.openttd.org/download-stable and get openttd for windows. then select to install also the graphics pack and sound pack. no need to buy anything
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12:15:34 <_Terkhen_> unless he really meant TTD
12:15:45 <[1]Sam> Ah, niceone. Thanks a lot. I was confused with the other alternative 3 downloads it was talking about
12:16:15 <[1]Sam> wait what. is Eddi a bot
12:16:52 <peter1138> pretty advanced AI though
12:17:25 <[1]Sam> yeah but what was all that interpetation stuff?
12:18:20 <[1]Sam> well cheers. Will be off now to install. Bye bye.
12:20:19 <[1]Sam> Man im really sorry. Can you copy paste what you said again, please? I forgot as soon as i closed the irc.
12:20:53 <Eddi|zuHause> <Eddi|zuHause> [1]Sam: you go to www.openttd.org/download-stable and get openttd for windows. then select to install also the graphics pack and sound pack. no need to buy anything
12:22:22 <[1]Sam> Damnit now im getting bad requests when i try to download.
12:23:11 <[1]Sam> k ive copied what you vsaid. thanks for the help and hopefully i'll get it right this time. good day.
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12:54:59 <thefiler> getting the following error message, when trying to build a bank - cant build bank here - site unstable
12:55:33 <Rubidium> I doubt it said unstable
12:55:49 <thefiler> woeps... sorry... unsuitable
12:56:18 <Markk> Try activating building on slopes in settings.
12:56:42 <Rubidium> you're building over a pair of houses, right?
12:57:47 <Markk> Thought of bank as this: "Bank (geography), a raised portion of seabed or sloping ground along the edge of a stream, river, or lake"
12:58:45 <thefiler> Markk: its on a normal flat ground
13:00:36 <b_jonas> do banks have to be built in large cities?
13:02:30 <planetmaker> they can only be built there.
13:02:44 <planetmaker> IIRC the minimum population is about 1500.
13:03:07 <thefiler> well its in city of 500 000 which im trying to build in a scn
13:04:12 <dihedral> hehe - banks can only be built in stable releases :-D
13:07:05 <planetmaker> Did anything change wrt banks which I missed?
13:14:52 <Eddi|zuHause> thefiler: must be built on top of two houses next to each other
13:16:32 <thefiler> what happens if theres not houses??
13:32:17 <[1]Sam> Hi again. Games working fine and is really fun.
13:32:32 <[1]Sam> BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUT is there any way to get rid of that fucknig anoying newspaper pop up thing?!?!?Qaisnohmsdgfs
13:32:53 <[1]Sam> i click the cross but ANOTHER ONE POPS UP AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
13:32:54 <b_jonas> Sam: try the message settings in the dropdown of the message tool
13:33:01 <dihedral> [1]Sam, is there a way you can read the fucking annoying wiki?
13:33:13 <[1]Sam> ive checked all of the options and didnt find it
13:33:31 <dihedral> you did not check all of the options else you would have found it
13:33:39 <dihedral> so do not say you checked every setting
13:33:53 <b_jonas> Sam: see the second from the right icon on the main toolbar? the newspaper. that's messages. in the dropdown from that, choose message settings
13:34:14 <[1]Sam> oh irght, i was looking in the game setting
13:34:18 <dihedral> why do noobs have such an attitude
13:34:22 <dihedral> i hate it with a passion
13:35:00 <[1]Sam> man i checked the options, third from the left. Thats where i e
13:35:06 <[1]Sam> expected it to be, you know?
13:35:16 <[1]Sam> thanks for the help though
13:37:19 <dihedral> and did he or she learn anything from that? NOPE
13:38:02 <peter1138> dihedral, why are you such a cunt?
13:39:15 <dihedral> people asking for help using bad language, claiming they checked everything, ....
13:39:44 <peter1138> frustration, it happens
13:40:21 <dihedral> hehe - i should write a plugin which ignoes questions from people my irc client has not seen for more than 10 minutes :-P
13:41:05 <dihedral> but then i'd jet get more annoyed if some question does make it though that
13:41:20 <Rubidium> dihedral: does it work?
13:42:17 <dihedral> could work, just might not be the correct way to tackle it ^^
13:42:36 <Rubidium> apparantly it doesn't work yet :)
13:42:37 <dihedral> sorry for being a nuisance to you peter1138
13:44:22 <peter1138> pff, doesn't bother me
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14:03:44 <norbert79> Some are quite interesting I must say... Sam was a good example
14:05:02 <norbert79> But why do you take such users serious? They are more like a laughing matter, rather serious
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14:16:40 <Eddi|zuHause> ProgrammingError: SQLite objects created in a thread can only be used in that same thread.The object was created in thread id 140701172004608 and this is thread id 140700950578960
14:19:45 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: you can't expect thread safety per default
14:19:59 <SpComb> unless it's specfically documented as available
14:20:12 <SpComb> you should be glad it just errors in your face instead of crashing randomly :)
14:20:16 <Eddi|zuHause> right... need to rethink my architecture ;)
14:20:49 <SpComb> e.g. not at all sure how well shelve deals with threads
14:21:02 <SpComb> and besides, threads aren't really that useful in Python
14:21:19 <SpComb> they have few advantages outside of blocking I/O interfaces
14:21:25 <Eddi|zuHause> well. i run the GUI in a thread, because then i can screw with stuff interactively from the console
14:21:32 <Eddi|zuHause> helps with debugging ;)
14:22:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i presume it isn't actually multithreaded in the sense that multiple cores can be used
14:22:43 <Eddi|zuHause> which would probably complicate the interpreter somewhat
14:24:15 <Eddi|zuHause> i should probably then not use a global database connection
14:30:26 <dihedral> <norbert79> But why do you take such users serious? <- how would you like it if you spend hours on end documenting stuff, and people just do not care a bit and keep asking you questions you have already answered in your documentation?
14:31:43 <dihedral> it's even worse when people at work do it, after you printed the documentation and placed a copy on everybodies desk
14:33:06 <dihedral> users seldom think "i wonder if a game exists behind www.openttd.org"
14:33:13 <norbert79> I guess you will need to get buy more 'RTFM' stickers :)
14:34:23 <dihedral> sadly the referer is not in the stats
14:34:41 <dihedral> else you could roughly see where most people come from
14:36:07 <dihedral> why they cannot take the time to look at the website before installing the game, and possibly reading the usermanual i do not know
14:36:51 <norbert79> dihedral: Because player get lazier with each day
14:38:16 <dihedral> so i have to do more work because users get lazy?
14:39:07 <norbert79> dihedral: In the 90's player spent days/weeks/months just to get everything figured out, nowadays it's all about huge installs, almost cinematic like gameplays... No, you should care less, because players got lazy... If you feel, that you have provided evereything possible, and still get questions over and over again on the same material just ignore those
14:39:23 <norbert79> In my opinion, those who are really interested will do some search/researcg
14:39:52 <norbert79> research... I learned the BUILD engine back in the 90's also on my own, and had no internet access back then (Duke Nukem 3D)
14:40:18 <dihedral> hehe - loved that game :-P
14:40:39 <norbert79> me too... And BUILD was great, and I loved the map series called 'Roch'
14:55:59 <dihedral> i love the turkish-german voice pack :-D
14:56:45 <norbert79> dihedral: There was also a hungarian dub-pack, never got it though :)
14:57:07 <norbert79> dihedral: But since the original came with kextract, you can easily extract the GRP file and create an own pack ;-)
14:57:18 <norbert79> Duke Nukem starring dihedral :)
14:58:18 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21512 /trunk/src/ (5 files in 2 dirs): -Change/Feature: make the delay of the chat messages timing out unrelated to the number of passed game days, i.e. don't stop aging chat messages when the server is paused
15:00:52 <dihedral> that sounds nice :-)
15:00:56 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21513 /trunk/src/ (network/network.cpp settings_type.h table/settings.h): -Feature [FS#532]: make the chat message timeout user configurable
15:07:35 <dihedral> Rubidium, i personally would not allow a user defined timeout of 1 second ^^
15:07:55 <dihedral> i would enforce a minimum setting in order to keep the chat message readable
15:08:31 <dihedral> else, if set to 1 second, admins can address someone as much as they like that the player can easily ignore the message
15:08:58 <Rubidium> if not listening to admin: kick
15:09:13 <dihedral> still annoying up to that moment
15:09:44 <Rubidium> even then, 99% won't use it :)
15:09:58 <norbert79> but it's nice having the feature
15:10:03 <Rubidium> after all, they have no clue where to set this :)
15:10:11 <dihedral> it's a good idea for all who are slow readers :)
15:10:51 <norbert79> btw, one question: I have many time epxerienced, that despite my edit in openttd.cfg some settings are overwritten by the game because of some characters being outside of range
15:11:02 <norbert79> does this have to do with some UNIX storing of text files?
15:11:27 <norbert79> It's not a big issue, but sometimes really annoying
15:11:35 <norbert79> having something set -> gets reseted
15:11:52 <norbert79> well, lets say resolution
15:12:12 <norbert79> then games tell me, that for e.g. [misc] is outside of range, bam, gets recreated
15:12:18 <dihedral> i could only imagine the entry being invalid which could cause it to be reset
15:12:29 <norbert79> thats the point, I haven't done anything at that part
15:12:49 <norbert79> and almost every entry is crerated by the game itself
15:12:54 <dihedral> is resolution still in misc?
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15:13:03 <norbert79> it only happens when I try to do some changes to the file
15:13:17 <norbert79> dihedral: Sometimes subparts are affected which I have never touched
15:13:24 <Rubidium> it only resets stuff that it didn't find in the config file, or settings that were incorrect
15:13:48 <norbert79> Rubidium: And why does the game do something olike it, if all of those entries were created by the game itself? :)
15:14:12 <norbert79> it only touches it, if i modify the resolution for example to a different standard setting
15:14:13 <dihedral> "id didn't find in the config"
15:14:18 <norbert79> or change fullscreen from true to false
15:14:34 <dihedral> missing " can be a nice mistake ^^
15:14:48 <Rubidium> then maybe you editted the file while OpenTTD was opened; then OpenTTD rewrites the file upon closing with the settings from memory
15:14:55 <Belugas> how fucking usefull...
15:15:03 <norbert79> Rubidium: Nope, You know that I am not a begginer in such things :)
15:15:29 <Rubidium> you don't want to know how often I get into that situation
15:15:35 <dihedral> Belugas, tell him :-P
15:16:34 <norbert79> Rubidium: One very plain scenario: CFG file is clean, created by game. I played at a resoltuion which might be too big for some other machine, and I want to disable fullscreen before I start game. I go inside the file, change fullscreen to false, do not change anything else, bam, it tells me, that some subparts are out of range
15:16:42 <norbert79> Rubidium: And I have no clue why
15:16:43 <Rubidium> also the file is UTF-8, anything else might seriously screw the parsing of that, which causes OpenTTD to not find the settings etc.
15:16:53 <norbert79> Rubidium: Now that can eb a reason
15:17:02 <norbert79> so the cfg file must be UTF-8 coded
15:17:42 <norbert79> ok, what about the TXT format? Does it use DOS or UNIX coding?
15:18:00 <norbert79> TXT has one additional byte for storing such files
15:18:25 <norbert79> hmm... as I see through Notepas, DOS like
15:18:39 <Rubidium> it should work with both
15:18:42 <norbert79> ok, I will use Notepad++ rather than notepad
15:18:47 <Rubidium> not sure whether Mac encoding works though
15:19:19 <norbert79> glx: AFAIK INI files are plain text, right?
15:19:20 <Belugas> dihedral, i won't tell him, it would be a useless war.
15:20:08 <Belugas> plus, i do have a lot more things to do, right now
15:20:25 <norbert79> Heh, read the topic entry... Why does OpenTTD have a Wiki?
15:20:28 <Rubidium> though it uses fgets so that might be implemenation specific-ish
15:21:01 <Rubidium> norbert79: to give the users a medium where to spread all but full truths
15:22:14 <norbert79> Rubidium: You know what? Lets create a user named 'Yoda', which will only reply the only one sentence: "Learn you must! Use Wiki!" and make a reply like this on such questions, like the mentioned one
15:26:02 <dihedral> "Learn you must! There is another ... another ... another ....
15:26:39 <norbert79> Use the WIKI Luke...
15:28:29 <dihedral> "neee, nicht luke! maulwurfn"
15:29:48 <z-MaTRiX> using spreadout feature while placing station overrides too close to another station limit
15:31:26 <dihedral> or it's a new feature in nightly?
15:38:21 <Rubidium> are there new features in nightly?
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15:44:26 <Eddi|zuHause> hmzz... it's becoming really annoying, always this negative rejection...
15:44:38 <Eddi|zuHause> once it tells me "probably unsupported type"
15:44:55 <Eddi|zuHause> then i implement a __conform__ method using pickle, and then it tells me "ProgrammingError: You must not use 8-bit bytestrings unless you use a text_factory that can interpret 8-bit bytestrings (like text_factory = str). It is highly recommended that you instead just switch your application to Unicode strings."
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15:49:44 <Eddi|zuHause> ah... also need to call sqlite3.Binary()
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15:59:18 <Belugas> grrr... headphone chords is dead on right side :(
15:59:24 <Belugas> got to buy a new one, i guess
16:27:41 * Belugas puts some scotch tape on headphone and all is now working fine :D
16:27:52 <Belugas> looks weird but who cares...
16:32:44 <Wolf01> I don't watch the TV :P
16:32:54 <peter1138> he won a confidence vote
16:33:02 <peter1138> no doubt that was rigged...
16:33:42 <_Terkhen_> I heard in the news that some people in the opposition voted for him
16:35:00 <Belugas> everyone in the news yesterday said he was out, big time
16:36:20 <Wolf01> I can't understand how a person with various counts could be allowed to rule (not govern, but rule) a state
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16:45:02 <SpComb> Rachel: does OpenTTD have write permissions to the dirs it tries to create the .cfg in?
16:45:14 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone fit with databases? what's the best way for an (id,value) pair to do: "select id where value=? and if that not exists, insert value and get new_id"?
16:45:15 <SpComb> tried running it from the console and seeing if it complains on stderr?
16:46:16 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: the "get new_id" after insert should be a standard feature in all SQL libraries
16:46:24 <Rachel> i dont know if oTTD has write permissions. I dont know if the consol running one was at me, if it was i dont know how to run it from consol.
16:46:31 <_Terkhen_> Rachel: check part 4.2 of the readme, it lists the directories which can contain openttd.cfg in your OS
16:46:50 <Belugas> select id from something where value = ? into var; if var is null then insert into...
16:47:04 <Belugas> that wold n in interbase syntax
16:47:05 <Rachel> I have Terkhen. Ive cxhecked all of them, even the mac/linux ones (i dont know why).
16:47:07 <Eddi|zuHause> but how do i write this "select and automatically insert value=?"?
16:47:17 <Belugas> not in my SQL world ;)
16:47:25 <Eddi|zuHause> preferably in one statement
16:47:29 <SpComb> Rachel: so you run openttd, change some settings, exit, run again, and the settings are all back to defaults?
16:47:37 <_Terkhen_> hmm... what windows version do you have?
16:47:48 <Rachel> SpComb: aye thats right
16:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> Belugas: problem is, that i need 3 statements this way: 1st select, 2nd insert, 3rd select
16:48:20 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: shouldn't need a 3rd select
16:48:30 <Belugas> indeed. i do that usually in a stored proc
16:48:31 <_Terkhen_> does the folder C:\Users\<username>\Documents\OpenTTD exists?
16:48:49 <Eddi|zuHause> but this must be enough of a standard situation to allow a more "compressed" access.
16:48:54 <SpComb> Eddi|zuHause: e.g. in postgres you can do "INSERT ... RETURNING id", mysql has a mysql_last_insert_id() or somesuch, and I'm sure sqlite has something similar
16:48:54 <Belugas> SpComb, he would, if he need teh id generated
16:49:04 <Rachel> Terkhen: No its not there.
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16:49:47 <Rachel> The .ini file isnt anywhere, there isnt one as far as im aware. Opening and closing oTTD doesnt make one either (again, as far as im aware).
16:49:59 <_Terkhen_> your openttd.cfg file (along with your graphic files) must be somewhere else then
16:50:19 <_Terkhen_> otherwise openttd would not even open (it would complain about missing graphics files)
16:50:50 <Rachel> Terk: ive looked in all of the folders in the oTTD folder and cant find it. Ive searched for openttd.cfg, what the readme says the .ini file is called, but to no avail.
16:51:13 <_Terkhen_> did you check the folder in which you installed openttd?
16:51:18 <Rachel> i have found the graphics/sound files though
16:51:35 <_Terkhen_> your openttd.cfg file should be in the same folder than them
16:51:37 <Rachel> Yes. Nothing there. Will check again now but im confident im not wrong
16:52:15 <Rachel> oh dear lord. I am so sorry.
16:53:13 <Rachel> The reason i didnt see it is because i was looking for a .text file and its coming up as a .grf . It doesnt have an icon so i overlooked it.
16:53:16 <Rachel> Thanks for the help guys.
16:53:35 <Rachel> Very much appriciated.
16:54:18 <_Terkhen_> it's still strange that they are being reset every time, though
16:54:31 <Rachel> Its obviously not saving the ini
16:55:14 <Rachel> no wait, the file ive got is called openttdd.grf, not openttd.grf. Ive opened it with notepad but its just coming up with a load of symbols.
16:55:34 <_Terkhen_> it should be called openttd.cfg, not .grf
16:55:41 <_Terkhen_> and it should be in the parent folder of \data
16:56:29 <Rachel> Back to square one. I cant see 5hit.
16:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i find no such thing for sqlite
16:57:21 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: except for "select from sqlite_sequencing", but that is again a select statement...
16:57:36 <Eddi|zuHause> "sqlite_sequence"
16:58:28 <Rachel> I'll reinstall. See if that doesnt anything.
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17:00:08 <Rachel> If i dont install the free music set, will the game fail to run or wil lit just not play the music?
17:00:26 <_Terkhen_> it will not play the music
17:00:40 <Rachel> okay so thats one problem sorted without having to find the .ini.
17:00:49 <supermop> why the underscores terkhen?
17:01:44 <_Terkhen_> supermop: I usually connect using a bouncer, but it is down now
17:08:40 <Rachel> Nah, reinstalling didnt do anything.
17:08:44 <Rachel> oh well. Atlest the music is gone though.
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17:12:16 <Eddi|zuHause> SpComb: i don't see the equivalent for that in the python api
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18:06:37 <Belugas> weare decorating the office
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18:20:43 <Belugas> tyoo bad for you, 'cuase it does look good :)
18:22:31 <frosch123> the decoration? or the girls which are obviously involved in that?
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18:24:21 <planetmaker> indeed, the girls were also nicely decorated at our Christmas party ;-)
18:25:46 <Belugas> frosch123, the only girls we have in here are in the 7th floor (we're on sixth)
18:25:58 <Belugas> and on those, only one really qualifies as a girl
18:26:10 <Belugas> the others are,... mmm.. "madames"
18:26:21 <Belugas> like... NOT girl anymore
18:26:57 <Belugas> note that i suggested to bring in a girl dancing on a poll
18:27:11 <Belugas> it was kinda refused...
18:33:58 <DanMacK> That could be a slight HR issue there...
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18:36:08 <Lakie> Hmmm... it seems my evil cb15c grf which causes my code to choke also gives OpenTTD issues
18:37:42 <Yexo> in which way does it give issues in openttd? crashes or 'just' wierd behavior?
18:38:40 <DanMacK> Hey Yexo, any more progress on Airports recently? Hasn't been much on the forum since Jan of this year
18:38:42 <Lakie> Admittedly it was constructed to give faulty behaviour
18:39:16 <Yexo> it's possible to create a newgrf that provides rotations for the default airports, but that's about it
18:40:12 <DanMacK> Any plans? I need some small single runway airports :P
18:40:40 <Yexo> I've run in a few cases that are not so easy to solve properly, so part of the spec might need to be redone
18:41:13 <Yexo> and I've been busy coding nml lately, so no plans atm
18:41:26 <DanMacK> no problems :) Just curious
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: translators * r21514 /trunk/src/lang/ (9 files): (log message trimmed)
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: belarusian - 5 changes by KorneySan
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: croatian - 4 changes by VoyagerOne
18:45:48 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: dutch - 1 changes by habell
18:45:49 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: english_US - 1 changes by Rubidium
18:45:49 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: finnish - 1 changes by jpx_
18:52:46 <frosch123> haha, pulling the r-argument for more companies :p
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19:31:06 <andythenorth> DanMacK: steam trams?
19:31:12 <andythenorth> could go into HEQS 1.0....
19:31:18 <andythenorth> seeing as it's....delayed :)
19:41:41 <DanMacK> lol, I'll look at playing around with them shortly
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20:05:59 <andythenorth> wrong country then?
20:06:45 <DanMacK> Yeah, although we've had about 4 feet of it over the span of 3 days, we just start digging out, and we get hit again
20:07:02 <DanMacK> and they're calling for another 3 feet
20:11:38 <Belugas> note thta i've heard there was something like 2 meters!! of snow in Ontario lately
20:11:51 <Belugas> could not verify, just... heard it
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20:13:54 <DanMacK> Yeah, I can verify it
20:14:42 <Alberth> While you still can :p
20:20:57 <Belugas> ho... DanMacK is in Ontario?
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20:21:30 <Belugas> than, keep your snow away from Montreal!
20:22:17 <Belugas> funny though, it's a blue sky with some flakes here and there
20:23:13 <DanMacK> Sure you don't want it? We've got lots
20:33:51 <Wolf01> mmmh problem: I built tram tracks over a roadstop, but trams can't go there
20:37:22 <Wolf01> never mind, just the wrong tram type
20:37:53 <Eddi|zuHause> passemger vs. cargp
20:39:46 <Wolf01> I was sure to have purchased a passenger tram, but I purchased a mail one
20:49:19 <DanMacK> Done that, got the T-shirt
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21:02:02 <staaN> hi, has anyone thought of rating system for bananas yet?
21:02:02 <Eddi|zuHause> >90% of this channel are usually idle :p
21:02:07 * andythenorth is adding something to HEQS that will destroy game balance in early years :P
21:02:15 * Dante123 looks surprised as somones hears the shot
21:02:16 <Eddi|zuHause> if that qualifies for "all" ;)
21:02:58 <staaN> mh i don't think so but ok..
21:03:01 <Dante123> rating system for bananas will be awsome i guess =D
21:03:07 <andythenorth> too easy to game
21:03:23 <staaN> i mean if it's displayed ingame would sure be cool
21:03:36 <andythenorth> how *should* steam loco costs vary compared to electric locos?
21:03:48 <Dante123> at the search button where you can rate a grf and use "sort by user rating"
21:03:50 <andythenorth> electric has higher running cost?
21:03:54 <Yexo> <staaN> mh i don't think so but ok..<- so provide a patch for both openttd and the website, that way it's not too much work for a dev to implement
21:03:54 * Lakie ponders forcing a redraw on month changes.
21:04:02 <staaN> Dante123: , yep something like that :D
21:04:03 <Alberth> what do you rate then?
21:04:07 <Rubidium> staaN: what would be the benefit of rating something?
21:04:26 <staaN> would make it easier to choose which grfs to take for next game
21:04:29 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: steam usually has higher running cost (needs two people on board, logistics for having coal and water supplies at many stations
21:04:38 <Dante123> well at this point any1 can put crappy coded grfs on bananas too right ?
21:04:39 <andythenorth> electric has to maintain catenary?
21:04:48 <staaN> i mean my list is huge and every timei do a new grf-config i can't decide whihc to take in
21:04:54 <andythenorth> electric has higher purchase cost?
21:04:57 <Rubidium> and anyone can put any random rating on it
21:04:58 <_Terkhen_> staaN: go to bananas.openttd.org and check their download count
21:04:58 <staaN> because some turn out to be not so good
21:05:01 <Dante123> take DWE set grf's :p
21:05:22 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: yes, higher purchase, lower running cost.
21:05:23 <Rubidium> e.g. the worst quality patches on the bug tracker generally have the most votes
21:05:29 <staaN> and can't remember them all.. :D
21:05:46 <Rubidium> also, what you like someone else might not like
21:06:02 <Lakie> I suspect that may be more because what it implements, more so than quality of code?
21:06:05 <Dante123> talking about grfs... who oh who thinks to be able to help me out with some Action 3 thing for Stations ?
21:06:17 <andythenorth> rating => number of downloads, it's a bad proxy though
21:06:21 <Dante123> making a spriteset work for more than just 1 cargo type lable
21:06:35 <Rubidium> e.g. I totally hate ECS because some industries look just way off compare to the rest of OpenTTD
21:06:41 <andythenorth> if that were the metric, it would appear that one of the things people need most is *giant* ships
21:06:46 <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: what's wrong with the examples MB posted?
21:06:47 <Rubidium> but some other swear by using ECS for each game
21:06:49 <staaN> _Terkhen_: , maybe then the download count could be included in-game
21:07:23 <frosch123> the download count says nothing
21:07:27 <Dante123> @Rebidium i dont like ECS because if does not work with daylength.. FIRS does work with Daylength =D
21:07:37 <frosch123> it only tells something about the age of the upload
21:07:46 <frosch123> most users seem to download just everything
21:07:57 <Dante123> @eddi i cant make sense of those examples, there is no logic without proper explenation
21:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: see. that's totally a non-issue for 99.9% of the players
21:08:26 <andythenorth> ratings by *individuals* would be fun
21:08:40 <andythenorth> so you could see what planetmaker likes, what Rubidium likes, what pikka likes...
21:08:43 <andythenorth> what mb likes...
21:08:51 <staaN> andythenorth: individual ratings would be awesome too
21:09:13 <Rubidium> andythenorth: running a OpenTTD server game while going 130 km/h?
21:09:21 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth: given that most of these people hardly ever play... what use is their opinion?
21:09:22 <_Terkhen_> numerical rates are so easy to fake/troll
21:09:24 <staaN> but i thought i might be easier to do it with bananas than in-game ;9
21:10:13 <staaN> individual ratings on bananas? ;)
21:10:20 <Dante123> @Eddi and in that example is nowhere defined what spriteset to use, at what cargo quantities, and so on :/ so when its only a example code and a wiki lacking the full explanation, is still like Arabic for a no-pro-coder
21:13:11 <Eddi|zuHause> Dante123: ok, short line-by-line decomposition of that example:
21:13:26 <Eddi|zuHause> " 217 * 25 03 04 01 00 06" <-- action 3 for stations, we distinguish 6 different cargos
21:14:00 <Eddi|zuHause> FF 25 00 // menu <-- cargo 1 is "FF" -- special case for build menu. use action 2 with the ID 25
21:14:33 <Eddi|zuHause> 05 21 00 // container <-- cargo 2 is "05", use action 2 with ID 21
21:14:55 <Dante123> let me check my othe code with it to see if it makes sense
21:15:43 <Dante123> that seems to drop the coin, just that little more explenation :P
21:15:57 <staaN> regarding ratings, esp. new players wouldn't have to search forums, and find the forums in the first place, to get an idea of what newgrfs would make a good start
21:16:05 <Dante123> so that code action 2 i posed was good and still needs to be there
21:16:11 <andythenorth> Dante123: whenever I'm stuck I try 2 things....
21:16:31 <Dante123> only i put it multiple times now there for the several ID's
21:16:31 <andythenorth> 1. try and document someone else's code until I understand it (reading the wiki to help)
21:16:56 <Dante123> well i was asking forum, but some people post code and say: its like this, dont you see it ?
21:17:11 <Dante123> and lack a bit of explanation what the numbers do
21:17:13 <andythenorth> they are known issues
21:17:36 <Dante123> thats for a dummie like me like trying to read a japanese as a european :P
21:17:47 <Eddi|zuHause> 20 00 // default <-- for any cargo other than the ones in the above list, use action 2 with the ID 20
21:18:16 <_Terkhen_> please, use pastebin
21:19:15 <Dante123> so that is the action 2 that i need to define for all the action 3 numbers that you define for the cargos
21:19:23 <Dante123> like that ID 25 and ID 21
21:20:47 <Dante123> i think i got it now, i will go for a test file tonight/tomorrow
21:21:09 <Dante123> does it matter if the action 3 is previous or after the multiple action 2's ?
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21:21:57 <Eddi|zuHause> action 3 must always be the last
21:22:01 <Lakie> The Action3 should be after the last action2 of the current chain
21:22:02 <andythenorth> in my world, it's normally after :)
21:22:07 <andythenorth> otherwise....it doesn't work :)
21:23:15 <Dante123> cant somone open a read-only forum part with example codes... :D
21:23:26 <Dante123> ok i gonne give it a go
21:24:27 <andythenorth> Dante123: get grf2htm
21:24:40 <andythenorth> then use it on some station sets
21:24:56 <andythenorth> it helps you understand the action 2 / 3 chains
21:25:05 <andythenorth> by showing them in your browser
21:25:13 <andythenorth> you have to read the ID chaining carefully though
21:25:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21515 /trunk/src/ (ai/api/ai_vehicle.cpp vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Use cached_total_length where appropiate.
21:25:24 <andythenorth> it's really useful when learning
21:26:09 <andythenorth> you have to put some hours into understanding the overall concepts of how nfo works
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21:26:15 <andythenorth> it's much easier when you have that
21:26:16 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21516 /trunk/src/ (9 files in 3 dirs): -Codechange: Add IsGroundVehicle function to the Vehicle class.
21:26:22 <Dante123> im alreay trying for weeks now
21:26:56 <Dante123> but im just lacking some clear tutorials :P
21:27:06 <andythenorth> there aren't any :D
21:27:31 <Dante123> yea and the wiki is just some database for people that are already fist-deep into the coding
21:27:42 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21517 /trunk/src/ (articulated_vehicles.cpp engine_base.h): -Codechange: Add IsGroundVehicle function to the Engine class.
21:27:42 <Dante123> im only half a finger deep :P
21:28:57 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21518 /trunk/src/ (8 files): -Codechange: Rename AccelerationCache to GroundVehicleCache.
21:29:19 * Dante123 thinks of writing some explaining documentary for station coding tut once i have some proper coding working (and understanding)
21:29:50 * DanMacK doesn't touch coding and leaves it to the experts
21:30:17 <andythenorth> Dante123: when I did HEQS, I made all my code (a) documented (b) open source
21:30:31 <andythenorth> best tutorials are documented working code
21:30:48 * Dante123 only wants some generic code that has a very high copy-paste factor so its independent from the coding people
21:31:11 <frosch123> then you are better of with nml :)
21:31:14 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21519 /trunk/src/ (vehicle.cpp vehicle_base.h vehicle_gui.cpp): -Codechange: Allow direct access to the GroundVehicleCache from a Vehicle.
21:31:49 <Dante123> after weeks i finnaly a bit into nfo, dont let me start all over with another dimmie-tutorial-lacking code :D
21:31:57 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21520 /trunk/src/ground_vehicle.hpp: -Document: Complete the comments of GroundVehicleCache.
21:32:59 <DanMacK> I might look into coding when I have time. I barely have drawing tim enow as it is
21:33:44 <planetmaker> DanMacK: I think there's no problem with some people drawing and others coding :-)
21:34:01 <planetmaker> Though sometimes it'd be nice to be able to do both things well, like Pikka and andy ;-)
21:34:03 <Dante123> well to be honest drawing ends up only beeing 10% of the grf making :/
21:34:07 <CIA-10> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21521 /trunk/src/ (18 files in 4 dirs): -Codechange: Unify some cached values that were present in both road vehicles and trains.
21:34:19 <planetmaker> Dante123: my guess is that it's about 50%.
21:34:20 <Dante123> although drawing was my reason to dive into the grf's :P
21:34:42 <_Terkhen_> NML is more newbie friendly in most cases
21:34:46 <planetmaker> Depends on how picky you are. Can go as low as 30%, I think
21:34:51 <frosch123> [22:33] <planetmaker> DanMacK: I think there's no problem with some people drawing and others coding :-) <- unless you team up with fred :p
21:35:35 <planetmaker> yeah, Fred is evil. He doesn't subscribe to hot air... :-P
21:35:37 <Dante123> i do drawing all day long, but in the end thats what i already do for a living xD but once you understand some code it isn't that hard actually
21:36:00 <Dante123> but its the way to the understanding without having some nice explaining documentary :P
21:36:01 <planetmaker> What type of newgrf do you programme, Dante123 ?
21:36:33 <Dante123> for now im working on Station tiles (on bananas: DWE-Stationtiles )
21:36:49 <Dante123> will be expanding to NewObjects later on
21:37:16 <planetmaker> NewObjects are feasable with NML. Stations not yet
21:38:56 <DanMacK> Yeah, I've been teaming up with people for 7 years :P
21:39:15 <Dante123> for the newobjects i wait a bit more because looking at the current discussions it seems that code is still open for changes
21:39:29 <planetmaker> Teaming up with a few people usually can be quite productive :-)
21:39:46 <planetmaker> And one ends up doing more often those things which are more fun - provided that interests are a bit diverse
21:39:59 <Dante123> but when you are the drawer, how you suppose to see how it looks igame
21:40:17 <Dante123> with the blue background it looks different than in the ingame environment
21:40:28 <planetmaker> Dante123: by copy&pasting the sprites into a game scene?
21:40:50 <Dante123> thats also true ofc :D
21:40:53 <planetmaker> sure enough, I've seen it often enough done by artists in the forums.
21:41:03 <andythenorth> Dante123: that's how I used to test
21:41:07 <andythenorth> then I learnt to code :P
21:41:25 <Dante123> after each drawn sprite i code it and test it ingame now :P
21:41:41 <Dante123> thats why i have so many questions on the forum daily haha
21:41:41 <planetmaker> :-) Indeed. Initially I had the impression that you were FooBar's artist. Now you're by far the main author
21:47:54 <Dante123> mm im off again, looking if i can crack that code
21:49:15 * Dante123 Was kicked out of the channel
21:51:15 <Yexo> hmm, is there any gpl station grf?
21:51:28 <andythenorth> but source is not available today :P
21:51:36 <andythenorth> for server reasons :)
21:51:42 <andythenorth> otherwise I'd have linked him to it
21:53:52 <planetmaker> Yexo: I can provide you with source or bundled checkout
21:54:26 <Yexo> no need, I can decode it as well
21:55:17 <planetmaker> It's not de-coded
21:55:25 <Yexo> I know, but it doesn't matter much
21:55:39 <Yexo> I only need a few action0's as example, and I'll probably recode them anyway
21:57:48 <planetmaker> nicely sorted files by stations
21:58:21 <planetmaker> (but not my makefile, so check out how it works)
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22:36:24 <Wolf01> mmmh, remember when I asked for 2 types of tracks on the same tile (diagonal)? Somebody show me a screen where it was possible, now I need it and I can't do it :(
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22:57:32 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: you can put a "universal railtype" on that tile
22:58:31 <Wolf01> that's ugly :( and I use the NU-Tracks, so no other tracks sets
22:59:30 <Eddi|zuHause> NUtracks uses up all 16 railtypes?
22:59:48 <Eddi|zuHause> kind of a bad design
23:00:05 <planetmaker> I discouraged that, too, yes
23:00:37 <Wolf01> I'm trying to "plan my tracks" with the track planning type :/
23:00:43 <planetmaker> actually I prefer one per newgrf. Maybe with and without catenary
23:02:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm not seeing much use of a track planning type
23:02:50 <Eddi|zuHause> a) it still screws up your rating since you clear the tile
23:03:12 <Eddi|zuHause> b) it's basically a cheaper and drag-able way of buing land
23:09:11 * DanMacK wonders why he never posted his Alaska Railroad sprites
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23:17:02 <Eddi|zuHause> Wolf01: if ever i wanted to plan something, it was the location of the station before town rating was completely ruined by terraforming
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23:25:09 <Wolf01> what about the next fundraising for tt-forums? I feel generous today
23:26:54 <DanMacK> I'm sure owen will take money anytime
23:27:16 <DanMacK> Click the "Donate" link at the top :P
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