IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-28
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01:51:07 <xiong> Couldn't I used to hurry up the tooltip by right-clicking?
01:53:04 <Eddi|zuHause> i would give you the correct answer, but you ignore me.
02:04:09 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r20435 /trunk/src (8 files) (2010-08-10 15:49:35 UTC)
02:04:10 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: move spritegroup to GRFFilePropsBase and prepare it for more spritegroups
02:04:42 <Eddi|zuHause> someone suggested this was breaking the houses
02:07:59 <Eddi|zuHause> and apparentl there'll be an Avatar 2 and 3 movie
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03:11:24 <xiong> Is it remotely possible that planting trees in town inhibits growth? I mean, they have to cut down the trees before they can begin construction....
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05:34:00 <GIORDANO> Sepi banget. Pada tidur semua. :P
05:34:11 <GIORDANO> Very quiet. In all sleep. : P
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06:44:15 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I see no reason why that revision would be causing "some" problem
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07:25:06 <norbert79> Good morning people... Guys in Germany: Did the morning breeze of frost also hit you?
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07:48:18 <dihedral> <norbert79> [28 Oct 2010 - 09:25:06] Good morning people... Guys in Germany: Did the morning breeze of frost also hit you? <- last week ^^
07:55:39 <norbert79> I guess it arrived in time here... I always follow german weather reports. Normally what you have there, we will get the same within ~5 days :)
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08:19:55 <norbert79> We just escaped the fury of the CapsLock man :)
08:35:47 <dihedral> # hey Mr. CapsLock ....
08:46:33 <norbert79> Our net-hero... The CapsLock man! :) What's up in the sky? Is it a character? Noo... Is it some numerical text? It's all written in CAPS! It's CapsLock Man!
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09:23:30 <dihedral> planetmaker, that nick would be confusing if he used it because it would be a MRCAPSLOCK ^^
09:29:10 * Rubidium wonders when APTX, CIA-2, G and X-2 get flamed for using a caps locked nick
09:29:56 <X-2> Or for being highlighted.
09:30:49 <Eddi|zuHause> depends how ill-designed your metrics of caps-ness is...
09:31:22 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether I'll flame someone, if they just highlight X-2 :-P
09:32:27 <X-2> Oh flamers leave me cold anyways :P
09:32:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: you should tell his highness that he should use action14 as designed and all his issues would be gone. He seems to not even read my postings, but rather prefer to lament and cry
09:36:42 <planetmaker> I'm quite sure he didn't use both, VRSN and MINV which both are required for backward compatibility
09:37:48 <Eddi|zuHause> except you mean "His Holyness" ;)
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10:12:02 <planetmaker> sure, Eddi|zuHause ?
10:16:56 <planetmaker> action14 have a surprising amount of 00 :-)
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10:38:53 <Hirundo> The amount of 00s seems correct, but the indentation is a bit misleading
10:39:50 <planetmaker> I'd not even say that :-)
10:39:51 <planetmaker> Depends probably how one expects them to be indented
10:40:41 <Yexo> the amount of 00's is correct in that example
10:40:44 <Hirundo> Given the example, I'd think one of the 00s closes the"B" node which is incorrect
10:41:05 <Yexo> no, you have to see the 00 as just another type (like "B", "C" and "T")
10:41:06 <Hirundo> rather, the 00s match the "C" nodes plus one for the entire action14
10:41:11 <Yexo> where a 00-type is the last type of a list
10:41:23 <planetmaker> Hirundo: ^ like that
10:41:30 <planetmaker> and in that way it fits
10:41:30 <Yexo> so the 00 directly under the "B" closes the \d<setting-number> list
10:41:42 <Yexo> the last 00 closes the root list
10:42:20 <Hirundo> This shows that expected indentation can differ :)
10:43:05 <Hirundo> Depending on whether you view the structure as a 00-terminated list or as an 'xml-style' thingy with opening "C" and closing 00
10:46:41 <planetmaker> isn't that the same. The last 00 is aligned with the initial "C"
10:48:04 <Eddi|zuHause> so there's generally one more closing 00 than there are opening "C"s
10:48:32 <Eddi|zuHause> ... i see how that got me confused
10:50:49 <planetmaker> but it needs both
10:51:00 <planetmaker> the last of a new indentation level needs to be 00
10:51:25 <planetmaker> so... in that sense of definition you show, it's neither
10:51:42 <planetmaker> (I'd not consider 00 a valid 'child')
10:52:14 <Hirundo> I'm only considering a single node here, not an entire action14
10:54:12 <Hirundo> There should be only one 00 in this case, right?
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10:59:26 <planetmaker> Hirundo: Not sure what you mean... I guess our perception of "child" might differ
11:01:03 <planetmaker> but the simplest action14 without any child is like "C" .... 00 00 if I'm not at fault. One to close the (void) entry list, one to close the "C".
11:10:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r21052 /trunk/src/ (6 files): -Fix (r20435): house/airporttile/industrytile newgrfs that defined tiles that relied on the substitute being drawn were broken
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11:20:31 <Eddi|zuHause> thanks for finding the issue, Yexo... stadium in alpine works fine now
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13:31:07 * fjb needs a better small airport.
13:34:17 <planetmaker> moin all, too :-)
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13:52:42 <Eddi|zuHause> small question: might it be possible for action 14 boolean parameters to invert them for the gui? i.e. have them 0 when "on" and 1 when "off"?
13:53:07 <Eddi|zuHause> parameters like "turn off X: <on>" sound weird
13:56:22 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: or use an "enum"
13:56:54 <Rubidium> though I'd suggest just changing the meaning of the value "1" for the parameter
13:57:10 <Rubidium> even then, "not set" is another value that 0, or 1
13:57:37 <Rubidium> though with the GUI it'll assign the A14 default values
14:02:28 <planetmaker> Indeed, setting a default value is the much better solution
14:05:42 <Eddi|zuHause> please don't make me explain that to HIM, too :p
14:06:47 * Rubidium wonders who did explain everything a long long time ago to him
14:07:23 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: I won't anymore. He ignores my advice
14:08:06 <planetmaker> I tried in this issue again, I can't help, if people won't listen
14:08:12 <planetmaker> and take free advice
14:08:31 <planetmaker> but rather carry on personal vendettas
14:10:29 <planetmaker> Besides everything on that issue is in the wiki
14:10:41 <planetmaker> he should read it ;-)
14:13:13 <Rubidium> but he hasn't written it, so he doesn't understand it
14:13:25 <Rubidium> and TTDPatch doesn't understand it and thus he doesn't understand it
14:34:21 <Eddi|zuHause> i just noticed this: "Schiffsdock" <-- who the hell made that translation?!?
14:38:27 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause is that not noted in the history?
14:38:48 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: too many indirections...
14:39:22 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: you have to svn annotate, and then look up the commit message which translator is mentioned
14:39:30 * Rubidium praises planetmaker for that
14:40:24 <dihedral> i thought it would also be shown in WT3
14:40:40 <Eddi|zuHause> i never go to wt3...
14:40:46 <Eddi|zuHause> why would i do that?
14:43:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: and what's wrong with that?
14:43:29 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: everything is wrong with that...
14:43:44 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it should probably be "Schiffswerft"
14:43:48 <planetmaker> His holyness disagrees. But on principle. So?
14:44:32 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: it's both, a "Werft" as well as a "Dock". Ships are built also in "Docks" which are part of a "Werft"
14:44:43 <planetmaker> I stand by that it's a 100% appropriate translation
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14:45:12 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: it feels wrong...
14:45:31 <planetmaker> It's also a 'hangar'. And not an airplane factory
14:45:46 <planetmaker> Or 'depot' and not train / truck / vehicle factory
14:46:03 <dihedral> i did not know that dock was a german word
14:47:18 <planetmaker> you've never been living near the coast, all of you ;-)
14:47:59 <planetmaker> the German word, though is "Dock", not "dock" - note the captialization ;-)
14:48:38 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i associate "Dock" with the place where you load/unload, "Trockendock" with the place where you do repairs, and "Werft" with the place where you build
14:48:40 <planetmaker> But you're all translators... change it, if you feel to 'get it right'
14:48:54 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: but that's not true ;-)
14:49:20 <planetmaker> schwimmdock, trockendock - both are suitable for repairs
14:49:25 <planetmaker> both are part of a "Werft"
14:49:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but the button in the toolbar says "Werft bauen"
14:50:05 <planetmaker> Then make it consistent whatever way you like. Honestly I don't care
14:50:11 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but "Schiffsdock" just feels very wrong combination...
14:50:26 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: i'm not a translator
14:52:19 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: should I click commit? :)
14:54:18 <planetmaker> NOUN das Dock | die Docks
14:54:20 <planetmaker> SYNO Dock | Reparaturwerft ...
14:54:39 <planetmaker> Schiffsausbesserungswerk | Schiffswerft | Werft
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14:55:07 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: now find examples for "Schiffsdock"...
14:56:52 <planetmaker> granted the "Schiffs" part could go. But it's to distinguish it from "RAumdock"
14:59:09 <planetmaker> but given that "werft" is used about 18 times and dock about two, it might indeed be best to change it to werft
15:00:34 <planetmaker> (which would have been the correct argument in my eyes. "but I think it's wrong" or "I don't like it" kinda make quite weak ones
15:00:52 <planetmaker> but that's all I always get from the German forums :-(
15:04:10 <Fast2> If you speak of the place where the ships are built, I say „Schiffswerft“, too :)
15:04:49 <Eddi|zuHause> Fast2: technically, you don't build vehicles in the game. you buy them...
15:05:46 <Fast2> Then use „Schiffsverkaufsstand“ ;)
15:08:03 <planetmaker> they don't do repairs ;-)
15:08:44 <Eddi|zuHause> for all other vehicle types, the "Depot" is the place where storage and maintenance take place when the vehicle is not in use
15:09:21 <planetmaker> for ships it's the "trockendock" ;-)
15:09:50 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, and here comes the problem that the game doesn't model a drydock properly, so it can't be named that way...
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15:18:08 <Eddi|zuHause> "Currently, the scheme is to use international phone codes as language IDs, unless they're out of range, in which case pick a number vaguely related in some way. Or something else." <-- how come i get an immediate "DaleStan" association with that sentence? :)
15:21:41 * Belugas wonders if it might not have been edited by patchman or himself
15:23:21 <Belugas> mmh... history is not complete
15:27:20 <Belugas> i remember i had some exhange with patchman regarding the fact there was a need for more ids
15:29:31 <Eddi|zuHause> but what i really wanted to search for was documentation about why MB can't use action 4 feature 48 to replace the "ship depot" string... the action 4 page doesn't seem to mention it.
15:29:53 <planetmaker> You can't replace default strings
15:30:43 <planetmaker> the stringIDs are not necessarily the same as in TTDP
15:31:39 <Hirundo> perhaps you can in TTDP, but certainly not in OTTD as stringIDs change over time
15:31:54 <planetmaker> that's a BIG issue :-P
15:32:14 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: also for the simple reason that it makes translations inconsistent
15:32:45 <Eddi|zuHause> i know THAT you can't change them. i am searching for the DOCUMENTATION of that.
15:34:24 <Eddi|zuHause> also, src/newgrf_text.cpp has some partial mapping, but it seems this is only for referencing default strings, not changing them.
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16:18:17 <planetmaker> it's only valid before action8
16:30:50 <Yexo> the current information is not "wrong", just incomplete (a14 after a8 doesn't work). That part is mentioned on the a14 page
16:30:56 <Yexo> "This scanning stops when encountering an action 8, thus action 14 needs to appear earlier in the GRF."
16:33:59 <planetmaker> that's what I recalled, reading there.
16:40:10 <Eddi|zuHause> so it's valid but ignored...
16:41:03 <Belugas> Dalestan has visited forums for the last time 31 august
16:41:13 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: DaleStan was last seen in #openttd 31 weeks, 4 days, 0 hours, 1 minute, and 28 seconds ago: <DaleStan> <PeterT> Why would one have info version 5 instead of info version 7? <-- because you didn't use any Info version 6 or 7 features, and there was no header telling NFORenum to use any particular version.
16:41:14 <Belugas> looks like a long time ago to me
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16:47:31 <planetmaker> you should ask our project leader. He talked to him. It's just tell-tale what I'm doing here
16:48:22 <planetmaker> the continuation of grfcodec / nforenum have to my knowledge his consent
17:06:21 <Eddi|zuHause> so... still leaves the problem that action 4 feature 48 doesn't document that openttd does not allow changing any builtin strings
17:10:29 <Eddi|zuHause> i'm scared of wikis
17:10:39 <Ammler> then make a patch for openttd :-P
17:10:53 <Eddi|zuHause> also, i'm not really confident i understood what the code actually does
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17:19:50 <planetmaker> [19:10] <Ammler> then make a patch for openttd :-P <-- that wouldn't be accepted
17:21:09 <Rubidium> good luck mapping 3000 strings to 3000 other strings
17:21:26 <Rubidium> oh, and there isn't a 1:1 mapping for quite a few of the strings
17:21:37 <planetmaker> and it might change for every version
17:21:40 <Rubidium> and many strings in TTD aren't in OpenTTD and vice versa
17:22:03 <Rubidium> also some OpenTTD strings have removed e.g. colour codes to reduce the number of duplicate strings
17:22:27 <Rubidium> but... that means mapping should remove those colour codes as well
17:22:46 <Rubidium> and... the plural system differs, but that's probably totally insignificant
17:23:24 <Ammler> with roadtypes, there wouldn't be much strings left, which would need changing :-)
17:23:37 <planetmaker> obviously 'docks' ;-)
17:23:47 <planetmaker> it'd need 'ship types'
17:24:01 <Rubidium> not to mention the fun you're going to have with e.g. multiplayer where perfectly translated strings get replaced by untranslated strings
17:24:22 <planetmaker> ^ that's my main issue with it. And why it's not something preferrable
17:24:39 <Rubidium> oh, did I mention genders already?
17:24:44 <Ammler> well, you wouldn't change stings, which are already right
17:25:00 <planetmaker> If one introduces new things - then they can be renamed or given their name. But drawing something existing differently and then calling it different just doesn't work
17:25:14 <planetmaker> Ammler: but such patch would do exactly that ;-)
17:25:45 <planetmaker> there's really no reason to re-define existing strings
17:26:02 <Ammler> but I am aware of addis trolly buses which need it now
17:26:03 <planetmaker> everything which newgrf can define and which needs a name can be given a name
17:26:20 <planetmaker> what's the issue with that bus?
17:26:29 <Ammler> it is still called trams
17:26:56 <planetmaker> :-) That's missing road types :-P
17:29:07 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: genders are already a nightmare with newindustries
17:29:51 <Rubidium> well, still two months to push gender and cases into the NewGRF specs :)
17:30:05 <Rubidium> shouldn't be too hard to map it though
17:30:45 * planetmaker has the feeling more and more that it needs at some stage grf v8
17:31:16 <Rubidium> planetmaker: actually, it doesn't (at least genders)
17:31:37 <planetmaker> well, not every new grf feature needs it, yes
17:31:59 <Rubidium> gender is just an extended format string code
17:32:06 <frosch123> you would still have to validate the DParam order, and disable non-matching stings
17:32:06 <Rubidium> possibly with a mapping in A14
17:32:17 <Eddi|zuHause> there has been lots of talk about a possible grf version 8, but nobody actually started development on it yet (as in let grfcodec accept grf version 8 input, and gradually change the specs until they are finialized)
17:33:04 <Rubidium> even cases could be done with an extended format string code, but cases are a bit more complex to spec
17:33:11 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: none of the features so far was urgent enough to do such step
17:33:22 <frosch123> planetmaker: i guess that will result in a nightmare
17:33:39 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: but by the time someone starts development, the feature requests will be forgotten...
17:33:42 <planetmaker> frosch123: arbitrary access to other wagons?
17:33:53 <frosch123> you create chicken&egg problems that way
17:33:55 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: not if gathered :-)
17:34:12 <planetmaker> frosch123: chicken-egg problem there? How?
17:34:31 <frosch123> the capacity of this wagon is the capacity of the wagon in front plus 10
17:34:40 <frosch123> the capacity of this wagon is the capacity of the wagon behind plus 10
17:35:05 <planetmaker> could be done. But there's a recursion detection *somewhere* for newgrf functions already
17:35:29 <frosch123> oh, and you will fix autoreplace desyncing everything
17:35:36 <Eddi|zuHause> newgrf actions simply can't recurse, because they can only reference actions defined _before_, not after
17:36:02 <Yexo> not true: action7/9 vs action10
17:36:05 <planetmaker> you have newgrf ^
17:37:11 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, but probably $nasty_things may happen if you abuse that. but only on loading the grf
17:38:32 <Yexo> planetmaker: for that Eddi|zuHause's statement was true: you can only go _back_ in the newgrf by using that
17:39:32 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: there is no "forward declaration" for action 2
17:40:43 <Eddi|zuHause> so recursion is not possible. you can only do iteration if you use persistent storage, and rely on the callback being repeated, but then the game defines the speed of that iteration (e.g. animation frames)
17:42:18 <Yexo> industry production callback
17:44:17 <planetmaker> ^ that might be... I don't find the commit. But I do recall some fix somewhen (I think by frosch) fixing some infinite newgrf loop
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17:45:13 <frosch123> yes, the production callback
17:45:24 <frosch123> but cb36 will not result in a recurson that way, it will only desync
17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21053 /trunk/src/lang/ (german.txt unfinished/frisian.txt):
17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frisian - 5 changes by gjannema
17:45:36 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: german - 2 changes by planetmaker
17:46:07 <frosch123> you could try making a list of the variables which would be actually safe to access from other vehicles :)
17:46:18 <frosch123> but i somewhat doubt there would be a lot
17:47:08 <frosch123> maybe engineid, cargotype and subtype
17:48:11 <Eddi|zuHause> you could allow certain variables only for vehicles before in the chain
17:48:51 <Eddi|zuHause> and things like direction and visibility could be interesting to know...
17:49:40 <Eddi|zuHause> "is there a height difference between here and 2 vehicles before me?"
17:50:10 <frosch123> there is also a george task about that
17:50:27 <Eddi|zuHause> yes, but that was only the directly adjacent vehicles
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17:50:46 <Eddi|zuHause> and someone said that wasn't enough to bother implementing...
17:51:48 <planetmaker> frosch123: for the sake of shunting the cargotype and ID would be enough
17:51:55 <planetmaker> and the loading state
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18:15:55 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: yexo * r21054 /trunk/src/toolbar_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4188] (r19397): scenario starting year was not set correctly when changed by clicking on the date panel and entering a new value
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18:30:34 <andythenorth_> are any ponies being made?
18:34:13 <planetmaker> don't you grow them?
18:35:00 <Terkhen> I'm only growing a big headache
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18:41:08 <Alberth> I don't see yet how order groups should work
18:44:41 <andythenorth_> Alberth: (sorry to ask) could you define your meaning for 'order group'?
18:44:48 <andythenorth_> (as there are multiple understandings)
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18:47:20 <Alberth> a number of groups, where each group has an order property, and contains all vehicles with those orders (shared or non-shared).
18:49:01 <andythenorth_> irc is not great for explaining possible specs :P
18:52:15 <andythenorth_> so building on that provides order sets?
18:52:16 <Alberth> see each line in the grey window as a group, containing the vehicles with that order
18:52:30 <andythenorth_> so forget what we mean by current 'groups'
18:54:16 * andythenorth_ has a slow brain for explaining today, sorry
18:54:20 * Alberth tries to erase the current groups, but fails, "group concept not available"
19:10:21 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
19:20:34 <Alberth> I didn't consider user interface much, in particular other windows than the group gui
19:21:41 <Alberth> but stuff like splitting such a group in 2, or creating a group without having a vehicle yet
19:22:56 <Eddi|zuHause> i think my most important goal for group rewrite is getting means for macromanagement.
19:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> "get me all Tram lines in A-Town and increase the vehicle count in each by one"
19:24:26 <Eddi|zuHause> ["then rearrange the schedule"]
19:24:38 <Eddi|zuHause> [aka autoseparation]
19:25:12 <Alberth> 'rearrange the schedule'?
19:25:31 <Eddi|zuHause> don't worry about that part, was just me imagining stuff ;)
19:26:00 <Rubidium> don't forget "syncing" trains at particular stations
19:26:02 <Alberth> I don't see how you'd do such things in a nice way yet
19:26:31 <Eddi|zuHause> ITiM had a feature where it would calculate the round trip time and spread out the vehicles evenly, if you wanted it to. it even had a nice GUI for that...
19:26:34 <Alberth> that's a time table issue, isn't it?
19:26:35 <Rubidium> itim seemed to do it quite nicely
19:27:11 <Rubidium> although I always missed the: "sync at station X with shared order group Y"
19:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> it worked on shared orders, so it ultimately would sift into groups...
19:27:32 <Alberth> I never get it to work for some reason.
19:28:20 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that might be achieved by setting the "timetable start time" at an arbitrary station, instead of at the first station.
19:30:23 <Rubidium> true, but then you need to reset that each time you add a vehicle to the vehicle groups you want to have synced
19:30:54 <Rubidium> e.g. if I doubled the number of vehicles in one go, the original vehicles wouldn't run at their normal time anymore, but some other
19:30:59 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: for anything more advanced you'd probably need a scripting engine
19:32:37 <Rubidium> now for the totally non white whale proof: you could use those "sync" moments to delay vehicles if another vehicle with transfer passengers is slightly late
19:32:58 <Rubidium> ofcourse only if the slack in the timetable near the following stations allows that
19:39:16 <andythenorth_> Alberth: splitting a group in 2
19:41:10 <andythenorth_> wish I could write the answer in pseudo code or something
19:41:15 <andythenorth_> it's so clear in my brain :P
19:41:41 * planetmaker hugs andythenorth_
19:41:47 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps make a new group without vehicles, then drag some vehicles to the new group?
19:42:10 <andythenorth_> can we call them order sets for the thing you're working on?
19:42:28 <andythenorth_> I don't want to come across like our new friend, but 'groups' is confusing
19:43:04 <Alberth> sorry, will try to avoid the 'g' word
19:43:17 <andythenorth_> so you have order set #1
19:43:22 <andythenorth_> with 12 vehicles in it
19:43:31 <andythenorth_> you want to give 6 vehicles new orders?
19:44:05 <andythenorth_> so option 1: go to each vehicle, and assign a new order set individually
19:44:22 <Alberth> nah, too complicated :)
19:44:50 <andythenorth_> option 2: go to the 'vehicle sets' window (looks 99% same as current groups)
19:45:00 <andythenorth_> move 5 vehicles into a new 'vehicle set' and reassign their orders
19:45:38 <andythenorth_> either way, the player has to do *something* to the 5 vehicles, there's no way for the game to know
19:45:43 <Alberth> hmm, 'move' would create 2 sets with the same orders
19:45:53 <andythenorth_> vehicle set != order set
19:46:02 <andythenorth_> vehicle set is a totally arbitrary group
19:46:06 <andythenorth_> it's just a list of vehicles
19:46:19 <andythenorth_> to which actions can be applied in a noun->verb way :)
19:46:42 <Belugas> "Please dear, can you find a free download of Burger Time?"
19:46:44 <andythenorth_> e.g. 'send to depot', 'stop', 'start', 'reassign orders', 'use consist'
19:47:49 <Alberth> so how are order sets and vehicle sets related?
19:47:57 <andythenorth_> they are decoupled
19:48:06 <andythenorth_> vehicles have one and only one order set
19:48:12 <andythenorth_> vehicles can be in n order sets
19:48:21 <andythenorth_> vehicles can be in n vehicle sets
19:48:56 <andythenorth_> vehicle sets don't try and do anything too clever
19:50:05 <andythenorth_> vehicle sets / searches / filters / lists / whatever
19:50:09 <andythenorth_> 'groups' even :P
19:51:11 <Alberth> you're going too fast
19:51:43 <Alberth> let's do vehicle sets for a while
19:52:13 <Alberth> each set contains 0 or more vehicles
19:52:32 <Alberth> can a vehicle be in 0 or more vehicle sets?
19:52:53 <andythenorth_> a vehicle can be in n vehicle sets
19:53:16 <andythenorth_> (implicitly, it already is...but that's a bit more of a mathematical way of thinking about it)
19:53:49 <Alberth> math is fine by me :)
19:54:30 <Alberth> how does a vehicle set come into existence?
19:54:40 <andythenorth_> interesting question
19:54:48 <andythenorth_> again, implicitly, there are already sets
19:54:52 <andythenorth_> "all vehicles using this station"
19:55:07 <andythenorth_> "all vehicles older than n years"
19:55:36 <andythenorth_> "all vehicles with reliability < x%"
19:55:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i was reading the last few lines, and thought "this sounds like a discussion xiong would have"... and then in the backlog i read that you apologized for that in advance :p
19:56:03 <andythenorth_> yeah, defining terms does matter sometimes
19:56:24 <andythenorth_> Alberth: player can also explicitly make vehicle sets
19:56:40 <andythenorth_> Alberth: do you use iTunes or non-fruit flavoured equivalent?
19:57:18 <Alberth> I use old fashioned analogue radio and/or CDs :)
19:57:54 <andythenorth_> the metaphor is basically same as playlists / smart playlists
19:57:57 <Alberth> allowing a user to make new vehicle sets seems useful.
19:58:06 <andythenorth_> playlists are created by user (usually drag and drop or similar)
19:58:15 <andythenorth_> smart playlists are based on search / filter criteria
19:58:35 <Alberth> but I assume you don't want to have all the pre-defined sets available?
19:59:04 <andythenorth_> there would be a lot :)
19:59:11 <andythenorth_> mathematically speaking
19:59:48 <andythenorth_> what can a player do with a group?
19:59:54 <andythenorth_> ach, vehicle set /s
20:03:01 <Alberth> ok, we have vehicle sets, created in some smart (or less smart) way
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20:05:41 <Alberth> right, then you assign a new order to that set.
20:05:55 <Alberth> I see what you are doing
20:07:56 <Alberth> an 'order set' is just a single order list, like we have now for a vehicle, right?
20:08:15 <andythenorth_> makes the changes more...manageable I hope
20:08:30 <andythenorth_> and no crazy system where the 'group' is trying to set order, consist, livery etc all in one place
20:08:59 <andythenorth_> Rubidium said order sets might even save memory :P
20:09:49 <Alberth> you get orde sharing by definition
20:11:16 <andythenorth_> 'orders' and 'shared orders' are cleaned up by order sets
20:11:23 <andythenorth_> there's no longer any distinction
20:11:34 <andythenorth_> a vehicle just has a set of orders
20:11:49 <andythenorth_> which may or may not be used by other vehicles
20:12:57 <andythenorth_> order sets exist independently of vehicles, and presumably a vehicle just has a pointer to the order set
20:15:27 <Alberth> I was wondering about order sets without vehicle sets, but that does not work
20:15:39 <andythenorth_> I like this route because (a) I think it makes sense (b) it doesn't demand a GIGANTIC patch
20:16:08 <andythenorth_> this way stuff like setting livery, consist, etc. can be ignored for now
20:17:06 <Alberth> livery == colours of the vehicle?
20:17:23 <andythenorth_> a whole other question I think
20:17:29 <andythenorth_> best ignored for now
20:18:16 <Alberth> the question is mainly, do you want to have them like order sets
20:18:26 <Alberth> (and same for consist)
20:18:36 <andythenorth_> consist is a more interesting and difficult question I think
20:19:20 <Alberth> ie can I do consist things without having a pool of consists
20:19:50 <Alberth> perhaps we should try to answer that for the theoretical idea of removing order sets
20:20:07 <Alberth> since we think we understand orders :)
20:20:59 <andythenorth_> so the question is... what happens if you remove an order set?
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20:21:42 <Alberth> no, the question, I have vehicle sets, and want to change orders without having order sets
20:22:06 <Alberth> s/question,/question is:/
20:22:30 <andythenorth_> no order sets == no orders defined in the game
20:23:00 <Alberth> oh, that is a irrelevant problem for now
20:23:29 <Alberth> eg, each vehicle has its own order list
20:23:43 <Eddi|zuHause> each vehicle would get an implicit order set
20:24:02 <andythenorth_> if there are 27 vehicles each with own set, that's 27 order sets
20:25:05 <Alberth> it does not matter how many order sets there are, I am trying to change orders for 5 vehicles without using a list of available order sets
20:25:15 <Rubidium> order set is badly named; they're not sets as duplicates are allowed
20:25:30 * andythenorth_ is not mathematically very wise
20:25:48 <andythenorth_> would duplicates be wise?
20:25:49 <Rubidium> but then, you're basically discussing how to visualise OrderList
20:25:59 <Eddi|zuHause> set as a set of vehicles that happens to define orders
20:26:01 <fonsinchen> if you remove an order set there are two possibilities: a, the vehicle is in other vehicle sets with orders; then it gets the orders from one of those or b, it is not; then it is left without orders.
20:26:04 <Rubidium> andythenorth_: A->B->A->C
20:26:11 <Alberth> actually, an order set is a single order list I think
20:26:13 <Eddi|zuHause> not a set of orders
20:26:17 <fonsinchen> There is one problem though. Conflicting order sets for the same vehicle.
20:26:21 <Rubidium> and how to keep OrderLists around when no vehicle points to them anymore
20:26:39 <Eddi|zuHause> vehicles don't point to orderlists
20:26:43 <Eddi|zuHause> order sets point to order lists
20:26:51 <andythenorth_> vehicles point to order set
20:26:52 <Eddi|zuHause> and order sets contain vehicles
20:26:59 * andythenorth_ will shut up about implementation
20:27:09 <Eddi|zuHause> order set can be empty
20:27:15 <Eddi|zuHause> and still have an orderlist
20:27:19 <Rubidium> but... OrderList "contains" vehicles
20:27:43 <Eddi|zuHause> OrderList contains orders, order sets contain vehicles
20:28:21 <Rubidium> and OrderList links to a linked list of Orders
20:28:46 <Alberth> I am a bit aware of the current structure, but I am trying to think outside the current implementation
20:28:52 <Eddi|zuHause> order set 1:n vehicle. order set is a vehicle set. order set 1:1 orderlist. orderlist 1:n orders
20:29:28 <Rubidium> why add some pointless class in between?
20:29:54 <Eddi|zuHause> because you can reuse the current orderlist implementation
20:30:04 <Alberth> because we (andy and me) were not discussing classes but concepts?
20:30:10 <Rubidium> but the current OrderList implementation already has 1:n vehicles
20:30:39 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: yes, but you mentioned the current problem when having 0 vehicles
20:30:51 <Eddi|zuHause> which could be solved this way
20:31:05 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: the "problem" being that OrderLists get currently removed when there are 0 vehicles in it
20:31:16 <Rubidium> or rather, when the last vehicle removes itself from the orderlist
20:31:28 <Rubidium> changing that behaviour is quite trivial
20:31:38 <Alberth> andythenorth_: shall we discuss further tomorrow?
20:31:47 <Rubidium> although figuring out whether the orderlist should really be removed or not is the hard part
20:31:55 <Alberth> perhaps at a less noisy channel? :p
20:32:03 <andythenorth_> Alberth: maybe :D
20:32:41 <andythenorth_> at least it's well-informed noise
20:32:42 <Eddi|zuHause> 't was just my thought... i wasn't really going to discuss it in such detail
20:32:42 <Rubidium> because one part of the users wants the current behaviour and another part wants to keep the order lists
20:33:30 <andythenorth_> that is what scares me about 'my' idea
20:33:40 <andythenorth_> I think GUI-wise it's worse in some ways
20:33:42 <Alberth> andythenorth_: I think it is essential that you can assign things to vehicle sets without having a list of things available at some other list
20:33:48 <Rubidium> at least, keeping an order list around for more than a game year most likely means you forgot about it
20:34:06 <andythenorth_> Rubidium: I was thinking they would need cleaning up after a while
20:34:08 <Rubidium> otherwise you would have assigned other vehicles to it
20:34:29 <andythenorth_> default sort == number of vehicles using set
20:34:38 <andythenorth_> if 0 => falls to bottom of list
20:34:38 <Alberth> andythenorth_: otherwise you get consist sets, livery sets, replacement sets, etc etc
20:35:12 <andythenorth_> liveries I think can be ignored
20:35:19 <andythenorth_> replacement is replaced by consists
20:35:26 <andythenorth_> consists are tricky
20:35:57 <Alberth> most likely, people are going to hook more stuff to it
20:36:22 <andythenorth_> I think orders are a special case
20:36:32 <andythenorth_> everything else is a property on vehicles
20:37:04 <Alberth> orders can also be considered that way if you ignore shared orders
20:37:21 <andythenorth_> the issue seems to be that some (don't know how many) players feel (strongly) that orders are a 'thing' in their own right
20:37:25 <Rubidium> replacement is hooked to groups though
20:37:43 <andythenorth_> personally I found the whole orders thing a bit scary and unnecessary
20:37:51 <andythenorth_> I understand shared orders though
20:37:59 <Alberth> because shared orders are nowadays the only form of useful groups
20:38:32 <andythenorth_> I only tried to figure out orders because (a) it seems to be necessary for rv-wagons (b) all the suggestions I saw fricking sucked and would break the game for me horribly
20:38:55 <andythenorth_> personally I reckon they could be left alone
20:39:01 <andythenorth_> consists are way more interesting and useful
20:39:31 <Alberth> I'd like first to have a picture of the 'new' situation, then I'll worry about preserving the 'old' styles of playing
20:39:45 <andythenorth_> shall we continue then?
20:39:46 <Alberth> yes, consists may be more interesting to start with
20:40:09 <andythenorth_> I know how to create a consist
20:40:09 <Alberth> not now, /me needs sleep
20:40:24 * andythenorth_ needs to tidy away a big pile of lego
20:40:47 <Alberth> I used to fill the whole floor of my bedroom with it :)
20:41:12 <Alberth> with a path of 20cm width to the door from my bed :)
20:41:56 <planetmaker> we had a "playroom" at home in the cellar. It wasn't small. But the lego town took most of the space :-)
20:42:18 <Eddi|zuHause> you actually managed to leave a path?!? :p
20:42:51 <Zuu> Not just some places to hop between? :-)
20:43:11 <andythenorth_> sometimes I fill my floor with pixels :P
20:43:21 <andythenorth_> they are sharp if you tread on them in the dark
20:43:24 <Alberth> in a pitch black room that does not work well :)
20:47:06 * Zuu find it interesting that about 7-9 page views on tt-forums use the same amount of data as just loading and quickly checknig the gmail inbox. :-)
20:48:18 <SpComb> with cached resources?
20:48:50 <Zuu> and Add Block on the adds + tt-forums logotype and some of the other stuff at the header.
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21:44:17 * GT wonders what it would take to get the 32bpp project organised again
21:44:56 <Yexo> was about to ask that :p
21:45:17 <Yexo> what is the status of jupix repository?
21:45:37 <__ln__> infinite amounts of money and a dictator
21:45:51 <GT> things get added, but z2 (default zoom) is lagging a lot
21:46:27 <avdg> just work on it, so the project works again?
21:47:57 <GT> I'm doing my best, update the code, update some things on Jupix repo, update the wiki, but it's too much to do it all (or maybe I should quit my job..)
21:48:27 <GT> reply to user questions, explain why is does not work
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21:54:20 <Yexo> if it's about getting sprites done: you need to set a goal
21:54:39 <Yexo> jupix repository is "dump everything as long as it's a 32bpp sprite"
21:55:17 <Yexo> if you want to replace all baseset sprites with 32bpp alternatives you should set that as goal, create a repository for that (or use one you already have) and only accept sprites for that
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21:55:48 <Yexo> ignore replacesments for sprites you already have and only add new ones if they A) have a good licence and B) are not completely bad
21:56:12 <Yexo> in other words (as __ln__ already said): it needs a dictator
21:57:10 <GT> but to get things included, it needs some work, and that is where things stall, the work to be done might need some explaining eg on the wiki
21:58:01 <Yexo> ideally you don't want to bother the artists with that, just let them dump all sprites they can create (of course in a useful format)
21:58:15 <Yexo> than have a few people (as less as possible) that do the coding work
21:58:30 <Yexo> where coding = create a tar, renaming the sprite files and pngcoding them
21:59:13 <Yexo> also I think that the "dev version megapack" is more hindering any progress than helping it
21:59:38 <Yexo> users want the most complete packages, so I wonder if anyone uses the "standard" megapack
21:59:41 <GT> that's an interesting thought, please elaborate on that
22:00:03 <Yexo> which in turn means that artists have no real motivation to get their graphics in the standard package because their graphics are used anyway
22:01:32 <Yexo> the effect that pack is creating is that those sprites are "somewhat useable", where in fact you should create the image they're "not useful at all"
22:01:52 <Yexo> of course all manual megapacks are doing the same, as is the wiki with multiple downloadable tars (in an old format?)
22:02:25 <Yexo> don't give users a choice which pack they download, or at least make the dev pack hard to find (so only developers/artists will find it)
22:03:31 <Yexo> ^^ of course it's still not sure that will work: I still think the main thing that is missing is a clear goal
22:06:53 <GT> Well, thanks for the useful input, you've given me certainly something to think about, which I am going to do now in my bed. CU soon
22:07:14 <Yexo> one more thing: useful documentation in the forum
22:07:56 <GT> Right, should very clearly link to good wiki docs, in findable forum stickies
22:08:06 <Yexo> first 2 stickies are _very_ long, then there is one about pngcodec, then there a few useful topics: blender thread, extra zoom levels, nightly builds
22:08:25 <Yexo> both the blender and the extra-zoom one are so big nobody is going to read them
22:09:30 <GT> the megapack is also not doing very much good: old info, old binaries -->lots of questions, more harm than benefit
22:10:00 <Yexo> 32Bpp Graphics Pack (13/03/2010) <- that one?
22:10:16 <Yexo> just make sure it's de-stickied and locked with a link to a newer thread
22:11:24 <GT> will contact Jupix about that. Didnt I say I was searching my bed? I'm really going to do that now.
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