IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-24
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07:58:34 <porky> oh crap, it's morning. i'll be back tomorrow... er, later today
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08:29:37 <planetmaker> hehe "Real life already has enough goals for you, why do you need a game that adds more?" <-- nice one
08:31:33 <Alberth> won't be understood, I am afraid :)
08:31:35 <andythenorth_> otherwise how do we know when we're winning?
08:31:51 <andythenorth_> need some brain help
08:32:17 <Alberth> mine still needs to be booted properly :)
08:32:21 <andythenorth_> I'm setting up RV offsets for different length adjustments
08:32:34 <andythenorth_> I don't know where in the bounding box I should be trying to put the sprite
08:32:46 <andythenorth_> as the bounding box size doesn't change with the length adjust
08:33:17 <andythenorth_> where is the location point for the length adjust? front / centre / rear?
08:38:31 <Zuu_> Hmm, having no clue really, will trial and error + Ctrl+B give you an indication?
08:39:43 <Rubidium> front of the bounding box I'd say
08:40:13 <Rubidium> as the next (articulated) part is added at X from the front of the bounding box
08:41:12 <Rubidium> causing fun stuff, like the position of a part being outside of the actual part when it's [1-3]/8 long
08:41:59 <andythenorth_> that'll do nicely
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11:09:05 <xiong> A draw-on layer would solve a great many problems. It might not be easy to implement because it wouldn't tie in with any existing code -- in fact, the lack of tie-in is key to the idea.
11:10:43 <xiong> But just putting a layer on top with some very simple drawing tools means the player can make his own notes right on the map. All kinds of minor shortcomings can be dealt with this way, instead of trying to fix each one or meet each user's expectations.
11:11:09 <Alberth> and you think you are the first with this idea? try a search on the forums
11:11:51 <xiong> It's very hard to come up with a completely new idea; I don't hope for that much.
11:12:14 <Alberth> it does not have to be new, it has to be feasible
11:12:38 <xiong> In fact, I have often said that there is no such thing (meaning almost never) as a "good idea". Or to put it another way, good ideas are free.
11:12:57 <xiong> I agree with you. More to the point, an idea has to be implemented to be useful.
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11:13:16 <xiong> It might be feasible but if it isn't feased, it's still useless.
11:13:18 <Alberth> you better stay away :)
11:14:01 <Alberth> he came, he saw, and he left
11:14:51 <xiong> So, Alberth, if you've read about draw-on already, tell me the 30-second summary of the debate.
11:14:59 <planetmaker> hm, you must have been talking to people on my ignore list ;-)
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11:15:42 <frosch123> planetmaker: you ignore dihedral? :p
11:15:48 <Alberth> planetmaker: perhaps I went mental, and started talking to myself
11:16:00 <planetmaker> and I hope not ;-)
11:16:13 <Alberth> xiong: not interesting enough
11:30:13 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: planetmaker * r21023 /trunk/known-bugs.txt: -Doc [FS#4003]: Possible crashes when running OpenTTD in a guest system under Parallels Desktop
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11:52:53 <SmatZ> xiong: changing that would break existing games
11:53:07 <SmatZ> and having a setting for that looks too complicated
11:53:57 <xiong> SmatZ, Changing anything might break existing games. Not sure what you mean by 'setting'.
11:54:24 <SmatZ> xiong: switch to enable old/"new" catchment computation
11:54:41 <xiong> Eh? Don't think I proposed that.
11:54:43 <Zuu> eg. like "original" or "improved" loading :-)
11:55:33 <SmatZ> I didn't read the article yet...
11:55:35 <Zuu> Which is silly, because sometimes the original loading bahviour is the prefered.
11:55:57 <xiong> Are you looking at the wiki page I just linked? I thought it was an outright description of the existing game, not any sort of feature request.
11:56:15 <SmatZ> I thought it's an idea how to make the current system better :)
11:56:20 <xiong> SmatZ, You gave me such a shock.
11:56:32 <xiong> No, the idea is the drawing layer.
11:56:51 <xiong> That *would* be hard on existing savegames. But then, there are always new games.
12:02:51 <SmatZ> xiong: sorry, I read it just quickly, but I think you mentioned all the important points
12:03:05 <SmatZ> "The Glass Works is missing the tile that would otherwise overlap the catchment; but that's okay, since the Glass Works' bounding box does overlap."
12:03:11 <SmatZ> especially this one detail :)
12:03:19 <xiong> Excellent. Thank you, SmatZ++
12:03:29 <xiong> The devil is in the details.
12:03:34 <SmatZ> thank you for writing that :)
12:04:23 <xiong> Well, you can thank a couple of Old Heads who explained it to me. Took me some time to catch on. It's completely unexpected and not mentioned anywhere in existing docs that I've seen.
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12:06:38 <SmatZ> xiong: there's one thing about the acceptance, sometimes it's not enough to have 1 tile of the industry that accepts given cargo
12:06:55 <planetmaker> nor for providing cargos
12:06:59 <SmatZ> some tiles just don't accept any cargo
12:07:00 <xiong> I've still got some redlinks to undefined terms. Getting those in was harder than writing the article.
12:07:19 <SmatZ> planetmaker: how do you mean?
12:07:33 <xiong> Some town buildings do not accept a full cargo; I haven't yet dealt with town.
12:07:35 <SmatZ> xiong: you see the tile acceptance by the "Query land info" tool
12:07:40 <Zuu> You need 8/8 for acceptance/production right? And some tiles could provide eg 2/8.
12:07:44 <planetmaker> SmatZ: not every industry tile produce... I guess wrong ;-)
12:07:47 <xiong> But my understanding is that an industry is a unit, period.
12:07:48 <SmatZ> you see "accepts: pass (1/2), mail (1/4)"
12:08:00 <planetmaker> xiong: you need to adjust your understanding
12:08:30 <planetmaker> every tile can have individual acceptance
12:08:36 <SmatZ> planetmaker: the catchment area is based on the industry rectangle
12:08:52 <andythenorth_> FIRS is a bad example, because I set all tiles to 8/8 to make life easier
12:08:57 <andythenorth_> some industry sets don't do that
12:09:08 <xiong> Ah. Well, I'm using FIRS.
12:09:12 <planetmaker> yeah. For output doesn't matter the tiles - just the industry
12:09:36 <SmatZ> [14:07:45] <SmatZ> you see "accepts: pass (1/2), mail (1/4)" <== and sum of those acceptances of all tiles in the catchment area has to be >= 1 so the cargo is accepted
12:09:40 <xiong> So, you're saying that with FIRS, I will never see an industry tile that doesn't accept. --?
12:10:05 <xiong> SmatZ, Those are town buildings. They do work differently.
12:10:29 <SmatZ> xiong: the same applies to industry tiles
12:10:34 <xiong> I haven't covered that in the article yet. That's what the 'stub' section is for. I'm reluctant to work up another set of shots for it.
12:10:34 <andythenorth_> xiong: if you see an industry tile that doesn't accept, it's a FIRS bug and you should report it ;)
12:10:44 <SmatZ> pass and mail is cargo as well as wood and coal
12:11:10 <xiong> Well, you guys fight it out. I've covered my ass by declaring right up top of page that I'm assuming FIRS.
12:12:16 <xiong> When I fill in the 'Town catchment' section, I may drop in a word about non-FIRS industries.
12:12:57 <xiong> It's very hard to set up a similar working savegame for town buildings -- or I think so. You can't place them with such precision and freedom.
12:13:54 <xiong> It was hard enough getting the right variation of Glass Works to build. At first, I wanted a Junk Yard, because the acceptance doesn't overlap. But that's considered a town industry, so difficult to place.
12:19:47 <Alberth> build an industry manually?
12:20:26 <andythenorth_> scenario editor
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12:46:12 <xiong> Quick poll: What do you do for a living, or to occupy the majority of your time (outside of OTTD)?
13:00:50 <andythenorth_> how would I make FISH work in ttdpatch?
13:01:14 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: only (re-)use the 11(?) ship IDs
13:01:42 <andythenorth_> and release a separate grf?
13:02:28 <planetmaker> you could do that, if you care enough to support two versions
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13:03:15 * andythenorth_ goes back to DIY
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13:13:34 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: the only viable alternative I see is some refactoring:
13:13:44 <planetmaker> choose 11 ships, assign them the default IDs
13:13:53 <planetmaker> Disable all other IDs when TTDPatch is detected.
13:14:03 <Rubidium> nah, that's the lame way out
13:14:06 <planetmaker> Under those circumstances it'd work for both platforms
13:14:11 <planetmaker> of course it is :-P
13:14:23 <planetmaker> Re-define other vehicles?
13:14:44 <Rubidium> just refactor TTDPatch up to the moment has a vehicle pool and support multiple vehicle sets
13:15:56 <planetmaker> we should shove that Lakie's way ;-)
13:16:25 <Rubidium> no, we first need psd and xcf support for grfcodec
13:16:27 <Lakie> Feel free to do so Rubidium
13:16:53 <Lakie> I imagine engine pool would be far more complex in most asm...
13:22:58 <planetmaker> Awesome work with the png support
13:22:59 <Lakie`> Afternnon planetmaker,
13:23:06 <Lakie`> Its not perfect but works
13:23:52 * Lakie` thinks it'd work better if it knew the full mage size ahead of writing personally, but thats unlikely to be ever done so this method suffices
13:24:40 <Lakie`> The added delay is only noticable if you decompile things like tgr1 and ogbx1
13:25:01 *** Lakie` is now known as Lakie
13:26:19 <andythenorth_> maybe png support is the final extra push BROS needs :P
13:26:55 <Markk> I'm hosting a dedicated server, can I be a moderator so I don't have to use rcon all the time?
13:27:20 <Markk> And is it possible to reset another companys password via rcon?
13:27:27 <andythenorth_> somehow png support just makes everything easier :)
13:27:34 <planetmaker> you can just move yourself to the company and then reset it
13:27:36 <andythenorth_> I don't know why or how, it's not like pcx was a major hassle :o
13:27:59 <planetmaker> rcon move clientID companyNo
13:28:45 <planetmaker> you avoid the rcon issue, if you use ap+ as wrapper though. Or issue your commands from the console of the server
13:30:26 <Markk> I looked into ap+, but didn't have the time to use it. :P
13:30:52 <planetmaker> well. Just use the console you have via ssh
13:31:49 <xiong> I theorize that it is not possible, in the long term, to provide good pax service. The transport you lay on, the more the town grows. Also, the higher the station rating, the more pax come to wait at that station, which then lowers the rating.
13:33:02 <xiong> The only way to get a consistently high rating must be to suppress growth, to hem in the town. That might only work after the town finishes building as tall as it likes.
13:34:10 <xiong> In previous games, I didn't know enough to get anything to work. Now, from 1850-70, I have got a town grown to over 25 K pop and they are all hopping mad.
13:34:41 <xiong> Local authority agrees I'm doing an 'Outstanding' job but the pax are furious.
13:35:31 <andythenorth_> but you're rich yes?
13:40:21 <xiong> andythenorth_, Doing better; I got the bank off my neck.
13:41:08 <xiong> It may be possible to outbuild a town. I don't think so, for cities.
13:41:10 * Hirundo suggests #openttd-twitter
13:41:43 * andythenorth_ suggests we make the game tweet
13:41:48 <andythenorth_> whenever there's a news item
13:42:10 * xiong suggests $openttd-hardcore
13:42:21 * xiong suggests #openttd-hardcore
13:43:25 <Eddi|zuHause> think of the kids! not before 23:00!
13:43:43 <dihedral> Markk, which version of OpenTTD?
13:43:45 <xiong> The point of my comment isn't to share my crappy little map with the world. Rather, I'd like someone to contradict me, preferably without introducing monorails.
13:44:49 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Always, somewhere, it's before 23:00. It's always prime time now.
13:44:50 <dihedral> wait for 1.1 then you do not need ap+
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15:02:56 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21024 /trunk/src/network/network_server.cpp: -Fix: erroneous tab
15:23:12 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21025 /trunk/src/network/core/tcp_game.h: -Codechange: document PacketGameType's enums and reshuffle them slightly to make the whole more readable and easier to understand
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15:36:32 <EDU> Hello need some help installing openttd on ubunte server
15:45:16 *** Guest458 is now known as norbert79
15:46:45 <Rubidium> avdg: I'd guess unstable connections :)
15:47:25 <avdg> :p how can you be that sure if you don't know the problem
15:48:58 <avdg> bweh, I don't care, no questions, no answers
15:49:25 <Rubidium> because he left after ~9 minutes. 8 minutes is the IRC ping timeout, so maybe it's the mibbit timeout as well. Furthermore him not reacting might imply he already timed out
15:49:31 <Rubidium> ergo... unstable connection
15:49:51 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21026 /trunk/ (53 files in 2 dirs): -Codechange: move from pcx to png extra grf sprites as they are easier to handle/view. They also take less space in a checkout. Furthermore this requires a recent GRFCodec nightly with PNG support enabled.
15:51:02 <avdg> but I don't think its his connection (keyword install)
15:51:41 <Alberth> avdg: that's what the '480 seconds' means :)
15:57:59 <xiong> I have not seen, though I have searched for, a setting to disallow these back-door offers of exclusive use of prototype vehicles. I decline all such offers, as they seem always to be unreliable until public introduction.
15:58:43 <norbert79> xiong: Accepting them makes it even more reliable at introduction though
15:58:49 <norbert79> xiong: If you feel using them
16:00:58 <xiong> Hm. Tough tradeoff. But I don't seem to have to pay a fee to be a beta tester, do I?
16:01:45 <xiong> What if I say 'yes' but never buy any vehicles? Or only buy 1? Do I still get improved reliability after public introduction for all my purchases of that model?
16:02:38 <xiong> Or do you just mean that any beta vehicle I buy itself becomes more reliable later -- only the specific number vehicle?
16:20:31 <norbert79> generic experience: You accept an offer, you use the vehicle, bring it to regular servicing, it gets better and better, and when introdcued, that level of reliability is being used
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16:40:37 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21027 /trunk/src/network/ (network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Change/Fix: under some circumstances the file handle of the downloaded savegame wouldn't be closed, and validity of the handled wasn't checked in all cases
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17:07:10 <Alberth> xiong: saying yes and doing no does get punished iirc
17:07:37 <Alberth> xiong: the advantage of the offer is longer use, iirc
17:08:09 <planetmaker> if you accept and don't use the vehicle, you won't get further offers for some time
17:08:40 <planetmaker> accepting means you get access to the vehicle one year earlier than others
17:11:09 <xiong> planetmaker, I got the one-year-early part. I also noticed the unreliability of that first year.
17:11:41 <xiong> I might rather not get such offers at all. They're distracting.
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17:13:19 <xiong> 'Fraid I'm not greedy for the cutting edge; if I were, I probably wouldn't start in 1850, which sounds just about right to me. It's only within the last 10 years or so that I finally decided that the Volvo 240 was a reliable wagon.
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17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r21028 /trunk/src/lang/ (arabic_egypt.txt brazilian_portuguese.txt hebrew.txt):
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 12 changes by kasakg
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: hebrew - 11 changes by rril
17:45:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: brazilian_portuguese - 51 changes by bmnds
18:08:46 <dihedral> pcx -> png ... uhhh the wrath of the grf authors (at least some very specials ones) will be on you ^^
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18:10:21 <norbert79> at least for raster graphics
18:10:39 <Alberth> you have to switch one day, apparently, today is that day
18:11:18 <norbert79> and afaik PNG is being handled also by DOS based graph9ical tools too
18:12:20 <norbert79> ook, see guys later
18:12:45 <Alberth> note that it is just the graphics in openttd.grf that have changed, grfcodec still supports pcx
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18:55:26 <volta> question: how to get more than 2 airports per city?
18:56:15 <dihedral> have a look into noise level at towns in the advanced settings
18:56:28 <dihedral> by default towns do not allow more
18:56:38 <Alberth> isn't that covered at the wiki?
18:56:56 <dihedral> at least i provided key words
18:57:01 <volta> haven't found anything in the wiki
18:57:35 <dihedral> 'noise' is the keyword ;-)
18:57:41 <volta> if i turn on noise levels it's something like 50/153
18:58:28 <dihedral> that means you have another 103 noise level thingy units to waste on airports
19:00:34 <volta> so without noise levels only 2 airports are allowed
19:01:18 <volta> would be nice to be able to change this number in the advanced settings
19:01:41 <dihedral> you can, with the noise level
19:01:56 <Eddi|zuHause> whle compiling an older version of openttd, i get the error:
19:01:57 <Eddi|zuHause> src/fileio.cpp: In function ‘void ChangeWorkingDirectory(const char*)’:
19:01:59 <Eddi|zuHause> src/fileio.cpp:773:36: error: invalid conversion from ‘const char*’ to ‘char*’
19:02:07 <volta> as i said: if noise levels are off
19:02:07 <Eddi|zuHause> what am i missing/doing wrong?
19:02:35 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: nothing, use older gcc
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19:02:49 <SmatZ> or edit the sources and cast it to const char *
19:03:25 <dihedral> volta, as i said - that is the way to change the amount of airports allowed in a town
19:03:41 <dihedral> it's either controlled by the noise level or it's 2 per town max.
19:03:53 <Eddi|zuHause> and sometimes i get "/usr/lib64/gcc/x86_64-suse-linux/4.5/../../../../x86_64-suse-linux/bin/ld: i386 architecture of input file `string.o' is incompatible with i386:x86-64 output" while compiling strgen, i have a feeling something is not properly rebuilt after reconfigure
19:04:24 <dihedral> volta, the reason for that is that smaller towns have a lower max noise level
19:04:38 <dihedral> towns accept way more noise than little villages
19:05:00 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: make clean :) nothing is rebuilt if you change CC/CXX
19:05:19 <Alberth> Eddi|zuHause: looks like you have an old 32bit result lingering around
19:05:35 <SmatZ> (I think that's a general problem of make)
19:05:45 <SmatZ> I wonder why it is used so much
19:05:48 <Eddi|zuHause> SmatZ, Alberth: the weird thing is, this also appears now on my trunk compile, even though i successfully compiled that before
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19:06:16 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: do you use the same directory for 32bit and 64bit compiling?
19:06:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i switched systems and copied everything over
19:06:33 <SmatZ> that 32bit binary isn't distributed with openttd sources :)
19:06:48 <Alberth> SmatZ: it works in a sufficient number of cases sufficiently well
19:07:41 <Eddi|zuHause> yeah, make clean helps, but it's more like the wood-hammer solution :)
19:07:44 <SmatZ> Alberth: indeed, just the idea of comparing timestamps, need to manually create dependencies, .PHONY, ...
19:07:50 <SmatZ> the whole system looks hacky to me
19:08:22 <Alberth> it got extended enough times :)
19:08:30 <SmatZ> yup, that is a problem :)
19:09:01 <Alberth> you forgot lack of a nice parallel build :)
19:10:38 <Alberth> timestamp comparing is nicely universal, except current computers are too fast or current file systems are not storing stamps precisely enough
19:10:53 <planetmaker> oh, compiling i386 and x86_64 in the same dir leads to 'nice' linking behaviour
19:10:57 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by smatz :: r16442 /trunk/src (16 files in 2 dirs) (2009-05-26 22:45:48 UTC)
19:10:58 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: use new Vehicle accessors at more places
19:11:00 <planetmaker> been there, seen that ;-)
19:11:03 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: Commit by rubidium :: r16422 /trunk (12 files in 5 dirs) (2009-05-24 21:09:00 UTC)
19:11:04 <DorpsGek> Eddi|zuHause: -Codechange: use const_cast for removing const and warn when const is (accidentally?) removed using C-style casts.
19:11:18 <Eddi|zuHause> that i meant... looks like a fairly large commit
19:12:39 <Alberth> yeah, building anything before that revision with current compilers is a bit troublesome
19:19:42 <Eddi|zuHause> hmz... and doesn't apply cleanly
19:24:10 <Eddi|zuHause> hmz^2... and it's because _someone_ renamed "colormap" to "colourmap" ...
19:31:18 <Eddi|zuHause> hm... i don't think this works at all... after patching i have more errors than before, and the one i wanted to fix still exists...
19:36:17 <Alberth> just fixing that one line manually is not enough?
19:37:55 <Eddi|zuHause> src/newgrf_text.cpp:166:8: error: non-placement deallocation function ‘static void GRFText::operator delete(void*, size_t)’
19:37:56 <Eddi|zuHause> src/newgrf_text.cpp:148:53: error: selected for placement delete
19:38:33 <Eddi|zuHause> i fixed the previous error, missed a failed hunk during patching
19:39:13 <Eddi|zuHause> but this one, i don't even know what this means...
19:41:18 <Alberth> that's an interesting one :)
19:43:37 <Eddi|zuHause> this is an old cargodist checkout, 20235:d49f415f91f8 based on svn r14661
19:43:45 <Alberth> someone digged up all weird creation and release methods, it seems :(
19:44:01 <Eddi|zuHause> cargodest, not dist
19:44:35 <Eddi|zuHause> i guess this probably isn't worth it
19:44:56 <Alberth> downgrading the compiler is easier :)
19:45:18 <glx> you may try to sync the branch with trunk too
20:17:11 <SmatZ> Eddi|zuHause: ./configure CXXFLAGS="-fpermissive" should solve the other problem
20:58:02 <Eddi|zuHause> is there a newgrf variable that can check whether the vehicle before or after in the chain is hidden (in a tunnel)?
20:59:43 <planetmaker> "If you have problem with opening links, then compiling is simply not possible for you." <--- lool :-)
21:01:01 <Zuu> I was thinking if I was going to fast forward by enumerating all three points or if I should maybe wait and give one point at a time until (s)he decides that it's not worth the time.
21:01:04 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: I reckon there is
21:02:02 <planetmaker> better fast forward. It gets annoying usually quite fast
21:02:38 <Zuu> Yep, there is funnier things than annoyed users :-)
21:03:02 <Rubidium> though that includes being hidden in a depot
21:03:21 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: that'd be fine, i guess
21:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> i'll check it out
21:21:29 <TrueBrain> ITS SO FLUFFYYYYYYY
21:38:51 <fjb> Hm... hungry hangar, eating airplanes.
21:47:38 <TrueBrain> ITS SO FLUFFY, IM GONNA DIE!!!
21:48:01 <__ln__> thank you for your contribution to the SNR
21:48:06 <Eddi|zuHause> HE'S BEYOND INSANE!
21:48:35 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: well, better beyond then behind
21:50:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21033 /trunk/src/network/ (network_client.cpp network_client.h): -Codechange: be more strict with the packets a client accepts at a given moment
21:51:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: terkhen * r21034 /trunk/src/genworld_gui.cpp: -Fix: Add missing default values for the custom town number and custom water level world generation options.
21:51:14 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r21035 /trunk/src/waypoint_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4181] (r21020): crash when opening the buoy's viewport. Based on a patch by Krille.
21:52:04 <Zuu> Krille has been mentioned a lot lately.
21:52:32 <__ln__> He has? ... Maybe he should be banned or something.
21:53:15 <__ln__> Relax, I'm not serious.
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