IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-14
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02:43:01 <Nite> can we see the map seed ingame somehow ? (console)
02:46:26 <fanioz> getseed <-------- did you mean this console command?
02:47:14 <Nite> ok found it thx (anyway) ;)
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05:51:51 <Rubidium> silly? He just couldn't get it through his thick skull that top-of-screen and tile 0,0 are north
05:52:20 <Rubidium> hmm... guess I shouldn't scrolled first : )
06:04:43 <koudy> planetmaker: still sleeping? :)
06:09:05 <planetmaker> koudy: don't ask to ask but ask
06:09:24 <planetmaker> but... highlight wether I'm sleeping... hmpf
06:11:44 <koudy> i'm going on in translation
06:11:57 <koudy> #define TEXT_INFO_ACCEPTING "\0D" // empty line breaks to stop window size jumping around
06:12:06 <koudy> that should be translated too?
06:12:19 <koudy> or only what's in quotes?
06:12:32 <planetmaker> only quoted stuff
06:12:40 <planetmaker> basically leave that line as is
06:13:02 <koudy> still trying to resolve plant fibers...
06:13:43 <planetmaker> hemp, flax, jute,...
06:14:04 <koudy> yea i know from last night
06:14:11 <koudy> but i don't think we have word for it
06:14:14 <ccfreak2k> Does it need to be a const string like that?
06:14:47 <planetmaker> koudy: then make it two words
06:14:53 <planetmaker> farm supplies is also two words
06:14:58 <planetmaker> plant fibres as well
06:15:55 <ccfreak2k> 'twould be "fibers" in en-US.
06:16:26 <planetmaker> mind the links to other languages on the left bar
06:16:42 <planetmaker> also... my online translator knows it
06:18:47 <koudy> and it's good translation!
06:19:18 <planetmaker> this method works surprisingly often quite well
06:20:33 <planetmaker> what language do you translate to?
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06:27:41 <koudy> Clay Pit will become Surface Mine
06:27:50 <koudy> i think it's close enough
06:28:00 <koudy> clay is mined in surface ones anyway
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06:28:58 <koudy> tt-foundry still down... ok... what is Clay Pit and what is Dredging Site?
06:29:08 <koudy> i can't run game here btw
06:29:16 <ccfreak2k> Presumably Clay Pit is a primary industry that produces...clay.
06:29:45 <koudy> yea i can make insanely long translation which will say exactly Clay Pit
06:30:01 <koudy> but i don't think i need to be that specific no?
06:30:26 <planetmaker> well. I'd mention clay somehow
06:30:27 <koudy> anyway... difference between clay pit and dredging site?
06:30:35 <planetmaker> after all... there are many different surface mines
06:30:42 <planetmaker> clay is a certain kind of mineral
06:30:45 <koudy> then Dredging site will be surface mine :)
06:30:56 <planetmaker> dredgine sites are in water
06:31:08 <planetmaker> a clay pit is a surface mine
06:31:12 <planetmaker> but so is the sand pit
06:31:19 <planetmaker> or the <whatever> pit
06:32:32 <koudy> then i would say i will do Clay surface mine (for Clay Pit, literal translation to english)
06:34:24 <koudy> dredging is real nutshell now... as i understand, it is some kind of movement of underwater soil using boats and flowing water?
06:34:51 <ccfreak2k> koudy, basically dredging is sucking up underwater silt and moving it elsewhere.
06:35:52 <koudy> product of this in FIRS is what?
06:40:53 <koudy> this is the machinery used right?
06:41:15 <koudy> it's called Mining of underwater sediments here :)
06:41:29 <koudy> now just to call exact place where is it done
06:48:25 <dihedral> SmatZ, Yexo, is his nick on the forums not "changnian"
06:50:12 * dihedral is considering a post to a certain thread - just to see where this goes :-P
06:51:35 <dihedral> planetmaker, do you agree? i will not proceed if you do not agree.
06:52:02 <dihedral> if you and i want to work together then you have to agree.
06:52:22 <dihedral> if you do agree, please post to the forums, else let us discuss it here
06:52:26 <Yexo> .... insert 4 people trying to convice dihedral to continue without anybody agreeing ....
06:52:35 <planetmaker> moin dihedral and Yexo and Terkhen
06:53:13 <koudy> #define TEXT_INFO_INCREASE_BOTH_CARGOS "\0DIncreases to 8t per 8t when both cargos are delivered within a month of each other."
06:53:18 <koudy> if i get this correctly
06:53:57 <koudy> if 8t of cargo A and cargo B are delivered, then what is increase production of Product C?
06:54:03 <dihedral> running grep in a ramfs is awesomely fast :-P
06:54:53 <planetmaker> 3t/8t input, if cargo A. 5t/8t input, if cargo B. 8t/8t, if cargo A+B present
06:55:28 <planetmaker> i.e. conversion efficiency increases
06:55:47 <Yexo> 8tA, 0tB -> 3t output, 0tA, 8tB -> 5t output, 8tA, 8tB -> 16t output
06:56:19 <planetmaker> that's how I understand it
07:02:27 <koudy> bah... translating is real test knowing your mother tongue rather than the other one :P
07:02:40 <dihedral> "Terms shown are case-insignificant." <- that line really made me laugh
07:05:11 <koudy> i for one think... that lumberyard and sawmill are the same place around here
07:05:20 <planetmaker> koudy: welcome to getting that insight :-)
07:05:28 <koudy> sawmill creates planks from logs
07:05:31 <planetmaker> (concerning translations)
07:05:44 <koudy> lumberyard creates thicker planks :)
07:06:02 <koudy> meaning wood for building purposes (ie, core of the roofs in houses)
07:08:17 <koudy> i'd need tt-foundry up :S
07:08:46 <koudy> where does sawmill product is delivered to? and where is lumberyard product delivered to?
07:09:09 <planetmaker> koudy: use the ingame info tool of nightlies
07:09:19 <planetmaker> And easier than tt-foundry can do
07:09:24 <planetmaker> (told you yesterday)
07:09:36 <planetmaker> it also cannot be outdated
07:09:46 <koudy> can't run the game here
07:10:12 <koudy> not speaking of fact i shouldn't have IRC up either :P
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08:41:05 <Yalmarr> how can i play this game with my friend?
08:41:20 <Yalmarr> we try to connect but we get a message "server offline"
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10:03:35 <koudy> planetmaker : returning from a bit of away... what is secondary industry?
10:03:51 <koudy> description for closing primary is if no supplies are delivered
10:04:05 <koudy> for secondary if no cargo is transported
10:04:22 <koudy> what is the in-game difference between these then?
10:08:29 <dihedral> erm - is it not the other way round?
10:08:39 <dihedral> secondary requires supplies in order to function
10:08:57 <koudy> #define TEXT_PNAME_PRIMARYCLOSE "Allow primary industries to close"
10:09:07 <koudy> #define TEXT_PDESC_PRIMARYCLOSE "By default, FIRS primary industries will never close.\0D\0DIf primary closing is turned on, primary industries will close when production falls to low levels (the level varies for each type of industry). \89Requires 'primary production decrease' on."
10:09:34 <dihedral> primary is seomthing like a coal mine
10:09:39 <koudy> it's production decrease
10:09:42 <dihedral> you get cargo with out putting in
10:09:51 <dihedral> secondary is something like a factory
10:09:58 <dihedral> you has input and output
10:10:21 <koudy> whatever supplies are input
10:10:29 <koudy> and it will boost production (mining)
10:10:42 <koudy> if you don't deliver, production will decrease again
10:11:13 <koudy> now... with secondary i understand it that if product of that industry is not moved away, it's production will decrease
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10:12:17 <koudy> with primary it's supplying things to increase... with secondary it's moving product away to increase (not providing more supplies)
10:14:28 <dihedral> koudy, i have the distinct feeling you are confusing primary and secondary with eachother
10:14:54 <dihedral> a mine as 'infinite' supplies, as in it gets its stuff from under the map
10:15:01 <dihedral> this is a primary industry
10:15:21 <dihedral> just like oil rigs, oil wells, sand pits, fishing areas.....
10:15:51 <dihedral> if you do not transport what they get from below the map, why should they get more?
10:16:09 <dihedral> secondary, requires stuff from primary in order to function
10:16:18 <dihedral> some will give you goods in return, others will not
10:16:24 <dihedral> i.e. power plant - requires coal
10:16:37 <dihedral> sawmill requires wood
10:26:19 <koudy> "By default, FIRS primary industry production will never decrease.\0D\0DIf primary production decrease is turned on, there is a chance that production will decrease if no supplies are delivered in a month. If production level is high, chance of decrease will be greater."
10:26:46 <koudy> not words "primary industry" and "if no supplies are delivered"
10:27:20 <koudy> "By default, FIRS secondary industries will never close.\0D\0DIf secondary closing is turned on, secondary industries may close if no cargo is transported for a long time."
10:27:39 <koudy> "secondary industry" and "no cargo transported"
10:27:52 <koudy> so am i really mixing stuff? O.o
10:28:32 <Noldo> primary industry is one that only produces
10:28:53 <koudy> don't forget you can deliver things to coal mine
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10:29:58 <dihedral> koudy, what can you deliver to a coal mine?
10:30:14 <Terkhen> in FIRS, engineering supplies
10:31:00 <koudy> now back to my descriptions i'd like to translate... am i right with hereinbefore assumptions?
10:31:53 <dihedral> koudy, why translate something you do not understand?
10:32:06 <dihedral> why not move on to the next lines of text that you do understand and translate those
10:32:22 <dihedral> else you are pretty much being inefficient
10:32:28 <koudy> because these are last i have
10:32:33 <koudy> everything else is done
10:32:59 <dihedral> then post something on the FIRS thread in the forums, simply asking for clarification of of those 2 industry types
10:33:20 <dihedral> and then wait for a reply
10:33:48 <dihedral> and if you only need 2 more things translated, perhaps someone else, who understands those semantics will translate them
10:33:58 <dihedral> you can post the translation you have there too
10:34:10 <dihedral> might be some idea to do some QA on that
10:34:29 <koudy> no no... i do understand what descriptions say very clearly but what i am asking is if it is like that in the game
10:34:54 <dihedral> if you are the translator, you translate what it says, not what it should say
10:35:19 <koudy> then no problem i guess
10:37:51 <koudy> still i have to read it few times... naming industry is pretty nice test of my mother language :D
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11:00:58 <TrueBrain> [01:43] <Yexo> TrueBrain: my main wish for wt3.1 is for it to support multiple projects properly (or multiple branches of one project). Given that itcan already commit to svn it's probably easy to adapt that to mercurial <- hahaha, be careful with assumptions :D Mercurial support is very difficult compared to SVN support.
11:02:19 <Yexo> well, even if wt3 would only output a zip file with the new translations it's possible to build an external tool around that to commit it to whatever vcs is in use
11:03:15 <koudy> dihedral : i think most important thing for translation along with knowledge of mainly your own language, you need to really understand what is going on in whatever you translate... that's why the all the questions :)
11:03:23 <Yexo> why is hg support more difficult than svn support?
11:03:49 <TrueBrain> Yexo: well ... 'writing' is easy ... 'reading' is the issue :)
11:04:50 <Yexo> I still don't see the problem there
11:05:15 <TrueBrain> ghehe :) I always just love how people make tons of assumptions on your software :D
11:05:15 <koudy> so i am changing stuff actually because translation is not enough... people in different countries percept things differently, so sort of i need to rewrite logic within certain borders...
11:06:24 <TrueBrain> it is like walking in a car shop asking them to fix your car .. if it takes more than 10 minutes saying: well, it can't be that hard? I don't see the problem. Just connect those thingies and be done with it :D
11:06:41 <koudy> Lumberyard is good example "Produces items such as poles and fence posts."
11:07:12 <TrueBrain> so I give the advise I have given so many times in this channel: ask what needs to be done, instead of stating it should be simple :D
11:07:36 <koudy> but to make it even understandable distinguished from Sawmill i'm going to change lumberyard description to more like "Processes wood for building purposes"
11:07:39 <TrueBrain> Yexo: basically what happens, is that when updating a VCS, it receives the diffs from each commit; this diffs are handled one by one to update the database of translatables to the latest version
11:07:49 <TrueBrain> this requires the need to receive diffs, one version after the other
11:08:03 <TrueBrain> this already took days for SVN .. and Mercurial is a tiny bit harder to do
11:08:03 <koudy> otherwise i would have to translate both exactly same (more or less) and that would be confusing
11:08:24 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what needs to be done? :-)
11:08:39 <peter1138> Pfft, hg is just a git wannabe.
11:08:40 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 needs to be done :p
11:08:43 <Yexo> TrueBrain: ok, so you need to fix up some hooks for mercurial to send a diff of each revision to your script
11:08:55 <TrueBrain> Yexo: and that is not the approach I will be taken
11:09:01 <TrueBrain> as the hgs needs to be able to be remote
11:09:04 <TrueBrain> (for various of reasons)
11:09:12 <TrueBrain> so I need client interaction to give me diffs
11:09:36 <Yexo> are you planning on polling those remote vcses?
11:09:41 <TrueBrain> as we do with SVN now, yes
11:09:50 <TrueBrain> much easier, as it turned out
11:09:53 <planetmaker> hg incoming -r XXX ?
11:09:56 <koudy> planetmaker : i guess you did read what i just said... i think i'm going to also post list of what i modified :)
11:10:25 <planetmaker> koudy: I assume you only changed the texts. Then it's not needed
11:10:33 <Yexo> to me it looks like that makes the problem even simpler, if you already poll for svn and fetch a diff as soon as there is a higher revision than the last seen revision you can do the same for hg
11:10:42 <planetmaker> And I hope you didn't touch the string definitions
11:10:46 <TrueBrain> Yexo: once again, don't make assumptions :)
11:10:50 <TrueBrain> I suggest to read the code before you do that :)
11:11:08 <Yexo> where can I find that code?
11:11:10 <koudy> no i only change things in quotes
11:11:36 <TrueBrain> no, it is not in the SVN
11:11:42 <Yexo> wt? no, you didn't want it public
11:11:45 <TrueBrain> noaddedsugar is also no longer linked to the source ...
11:11:57 <TrueBrain> owh, it has been public for a long long time :) Just not published :D
11:12:12 <TrueBrain> either way: /var/www/www.openttd.org/openttd_test/translator
11:14:21 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: what is wt3 written in?
11:14:41 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 will be written on another framework btw, but that are details
11:14:47 <planetmaker> got a more public link than /var/... ?
11:15:58 <TrueBrain> also not very important
11:16:11 <TrueBrain> most important code you already read in the wT3.1 project of .. a few months ago :p
11:16:42 <TrueBrain> you don't remember that?
11:16:55 <planetmaker> well, I remember that *something*
11:17:02 <planetmaker> But surely not a single line of code ;-)
11:17:13 <planetmaker> My memory concerning details reaches as far back as noon ;-)
11:17:44 <TrueBrain> there was a lots of code in there :D
11:17:57 * Yexo can't remember any code either, sorry TrueBrain
11:18:21 <TrueBrain> Yexo: I know you can't; you most lilely never seen it :D
11:18:39 <Yexo> I do remember a lot of discussion about wt in here
11:18:50 <TrueBrain> yup; then we moved it to another channel :)
11:19:25 <planetmaker> does that channel still (or again) exist?
11:19:48 <planetmaker> ok, so for all practical purposes: no
11:19:50 <Yexo> anyway, after reading the code my opinion hasn't changed much. Most of the work will be thinking of a nice wrapper around svn/hg
11:20:07 <TrueBrain> which is not "simple"
11:20:15 <TrueBrain> but for all means and reasons: please make it
11:20:27 <Yexo> ok, it's certainly not a 5 minute job
11:20:56 <Yexo> but I'd say the "hard" part was making svn work, to support hg too you just need to abstract it a bit
11:21:12 <TrueBrain> still not that simple
11:21:26 <Yexo> git might be more difficult as I don't know if it has sequential revision numbers
11:21:52 <planetmaker> I'd be willing to give a hand with hg support
11:22:02 <APTX_> you can't really do sequential numbers in a dvcs
11:22:13 <planetmaker> but they're local
11:22:25 <TrueBrain> even remote it is possible
11:22:31 <TrueBrain> as long as you pick one central repos to be the 'main'
11:22:39 <planetmaker> sure. but local to each repo :-)
11:22:43 <planetmaker> in that sense local
11:22:53 <TrueBrain> omg, this channel already annoys me
11:22:56 <TrueBrain> 'everyone knows better'
11:23:10 <TrueBrain> APTX: it still is a distributed vcs
11:23:26 <koudy> station names Mills and Wells... where station has to be built to get them?
11:23:28 <APTX> I could just quote you back
11:23:42 <TrueBrain> the reason it is called 'distributed' is not related to the fact you pick one repos to use for a WT
11:24:43 <planetmaker> besides it's for this purpose completely irrelevant whether central VCS or distributed VCS
11:24:57 <planetmaker> Important is only to be able to obtain a sequence of commits
11:24:59 <TrueBrain> completely completely :D
11:25:28 <TrueBrain> git is btw also solvable with some trickery
11:25:36 <TrueBrain> but ... I am not really planning to do git support at this stage
11:25:58 <planetmaker> also not needed :-P
11:26:07 <TrueBrain> I think michi_cc would disagree :D
11:26:48 <APTX> <TrueBrain> the reason it is called 'distributed' is not related to the fact you pick one repos to use for a WT <- actually it's because you don't use one central repo
11:26:50 <Yexo> TrueBrain: is the code in /var/www/www.openttd.org/openttd_test/translator using the final framework?
11:27:04 <Yexo> in other words, would a diff against that code be useful or would you have to rewrite it anyway
11:27:26 <TrueBrain> APTX: so indeed, stuff like github.com immediatly remove the 'distributed' part of git .. yeah .. sure thing .. what ever dude
11:27:36 <TrueBrain> Yexo: wouldn't be useful in any way :D
11:27:43 <TrueBrain> there are database errors in that design
11:28:27 <TrueBrain> Yexo: and it is integrated int he openttd.org website :p
11:28:46 <TrueBrain> as I said before, WT3.0 in theory supports branches and other repos, so NML stuff can be loaded into it .. I just wouldn't try it :D
11:28:52 <planetmaker> let me guess... also the non-public part? :-)
11:29:04 <TrueBrain> public, non-published :p
11:30:01 <Yexo> TrueBrain: when you have svn support for wt3.1 I'll write the code you need to support mercurial, I still think it's simple (just also time consuming)
11:30:25 <TrueBrain> that would be lovely :)
11:30:48 <TrueBrain> as Mercurial is written in Python, it should not be hard to find bindings for it
11:31:36 <TrueBrain> the only main problem with Mercurial will be to support the branches
11:31:58 <Yexo> do you want to support the branches? you can also just track the master branch
11:32:10 <TrueBrain> you yourself stated that you would want that :)
11:32:33 <TrueBrain> well, depends how you read it I guess
11:32:50 <TrueBrain> but a branch of your project has to be linked to source
11:33:13 <Yexo> don't you also want that for openttd (to support both 1.0 and trunk translations?
11:33:26 <TrueBrain> but in SVN it is 'easy': another checkout
11:33:41 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: you have branches in hg, too
11:33:46 <TrueBrain> I know planetmaker :)
11:33:50 <planetmaker> But not in OpenTTD :-)
11:33:51 <TrueBrain> but they are more bitchy, in general
11:34:24 <TrueBrain> Of course they work :D
11:34:40 <Yexo> do you also want the history of strings from before a branch was created? How does that work with svn?
11:34:43 <TrueBrain> hmm, reminds me I need a function: get-next-revision
11:34:49 <TrueBrain> to skip pointless revision checks
11:35:04 <TrueBrain> Yexo: in SVN it _can_ walk copies
11:35:07 <SpComb> mercurial history is strictly non-linear
11:35:07 <TrueBrain> it doesn't, but it can
11:35:22 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the problems are the merges and stuff
11:35:27 <TrueBrain> they can really make your life misserible
11:35:48 <planetmaker> hm. Possibly, yes
11:35:56 <planetmaker> hg transplant :-P
11:36:35 <TrueBrain> yeah, what SpComb says
11:36:38 <TrueBrain> (damn, what a lag ..)
11:38:11 <TrueBrain> Yexo: in the optimal world I wanted no local WC. This turned out to be very hard for SVN, or rather: very slow and resource intense
11:38:22 <TrueBrain> I am a bit afraid to have a WC for every project, for every branch
11:38:34 <TrueBrain> but so far haven't found any sane solution for it
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11:40:12 <Rubidium> with SVN you can at least do a checkout of only the directory with strings
11:41:13 <planetmaker> hg allows to clone only a branch, if needed; but always all dirs.
11:41:31 <Rubidium> planetmaker: but can you push that back?
11:42:17 <planetmaker> well. in principle hg allows to push anything to any repo, but that might not be desired
11:42:20 <TrueBrain> good point Rubidium
11:42:36 <TrueBrain> so for hg a lot needs to be tested
11:42:49 <TrueBrain> (do you guys also have that you read 'mercurial' when it says 'hg'?)
11:43:33 <TrueBrain> Yexo: (begint het te dagen dat het geen 'simpele' taak is? :D) Still, please do try to write it, it would allow me to concentrate on (in my opinion) more important stuff :D
11:43:38 <planetmaker> for me it's synonymous
11:43:56 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, in my mind I read it as mercurial. Not as two letters :D
11:44:00 <TrueBrain> very strange, tbh :p
11:44:56 <Yexo> TrueBrain: note that a precondition to it being "simple" was that the svn support was already done
11:45:13 <Yexo> but ok, I didn't think about a local wc / branches
11:45:39 <TrueBrain> that happens with assumptions :D :p :p :) Hihi :)
11:45:49 <TrueBrain> okay ... I think my requirement docs are nearly done ...
11:45:58 <TrueBrain> now I need to find a place to put stuff on again ..
11:50:02 <planetmaker> I guess you have sufficient places to do so?
11:53:41 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, I have a place to host it, but I need to connect it somewhere :)
11:53:41 <peter1138> Could you perhaps state what the link is about when you post it? I don't care, but I didn't know that I didn't care until I looked...
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11:53:56 <TrueBrain> peter1138: but we all knew what it is about :p
11:54:12 <norbert79> peter1138: You open, read, close, that doesn't hurt
11:54:22 <TrueBrain> peter1138: he has been babbling about it for an hour now or something :p
11:54:30 <peter1138> norbert79, I wouldn't've mentioned it if he hadn't put "for those who care" at the end.
11:54:35 <dihedral> TrueBrain, at least an houer
11:54:59 <norbert79> peter1138: You cared, thats why you rad it. What I cannot understand is, that why you have oepend it, if you didn't care?
11:55:11 <dihedral> peter1138, regarding the nick who posted the link, and regarding what this very nick talks about non stop ... it's kind of clear
11:56:30 <dihedral> koudy, your translation correspond to the words OpenTTD already uses in your langauge?
11:56:55 <koudy> i have no way how to find out here
11:57:07 <dihedral> i am sure you do have a way to find out
11:57:14 <norbert79> dihedral: I guess thats something the czech community can only answer
11:58:13 <dihedral> besids, if you are at work, you should not be coding / translating for openttd :-P
11:58:48 <dihedral> i have flexi time - i catch up
11:59:24 <norbert79> Yeah, thats we all do here :) We make sort of a catch up, like in Office Space
11:59:54 <TrueBrain> in a moment I will start running around my own axis really fast (counter-clockwise btw), so I go back in time
12:00:11 <dihedral> TrueBrain, that explains a lot :-D
12:01:23 <koudy> i hit stuff except one word
12:01:30 <norbert79> Hmm, yet having the same thing in one space coming from two times is kinda dangerous, so make sure you do that in a different dimension, thanks :)
12:01:38 <koudy> but there is one issue with FIRS...
12:01:47 <koudy> it counts livestock in tons
12:02:01 <TrueBrain> norbert79: well, by default I have to, as there is no other option
12:02:09 <TrueBrain> after all, for every choice you make, the universe splits
12:02:13 <koudy> original TTD is in ... eeeh how do you say it? pieces? each other
12:02:25 <planetmaker> koudy: in 'reality' lifestock is counted in "Großvieheinheiten" and alike
12:02:45 <planetmaker> however that translates. But chicken certainly have again a different measure. They're not "Großvieh"
12:03:15 <planetmaker> And the amount of chickes a truck can load differs significantly from the amount of cows.
12:03:25 <koudy> and that one word i used differently is quite arguable which one to use... either way i will change mine, it's easier
12:03:39 <norbert79> Just wanted to mention :D
12:04:18 <TrueBrain> "how are your chicks today?"
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12:06:02 <koudy> why it has to be alligned? O.o
12:06:03 <planetmaker> but no user will understand it
12:06:21 <koudy> FIRS does use own stuff as i understand it
12:06:39 <koudy> Grain in OTTD might not be same grain in FIRS :P
12:06:49 <koudy> (that's the word i switched)
12:07:02 <planetmaker> is that sensible?
12:08:13 <koudy> are you using train cars from OTTD? not really
12:08:22 <koudy> you have generic you need to refit
12:08:35 <koudy> or NARS have... point is the same
12:08:45 <koudy> but again i will change it. it's no issue
12:08:54 <koudy> just wondering about the logic
12:10:27 <planetmaker> Also in station view? minimap? all vehicle sets, trains, ships, planes, rv?
12:10:40 <planetmaker> so one would ship grain, the other maize?
12:10:46 <planetmaker> while loading the same stuff?
12:10:54 <koudy> no no... maize is specific thing
12:11:33 <koudy> maize is exact kind of grain, while grain lot of specific kinds
12:11:44 <koudy> even in stations and all
12:11:58 <koudy> because FIRS changes everything from my point of view...
12:12:32 <koudy> you see... OTTD translation of word grain is 100% correct, but people here will never use that word if you supply it to brewery
12:12:36 <planetmaker> if so... no problem. Though the question is: why? Is it better? Then OpenTTD's translation should change, too ;-)
12:13:14 <koudy> it just means something else
12:13:38 <koudy> it's fine... acceptable :)
12:13:45 <koudy> no translation is perfect
12:14:39 <planetmaker> well. You chose what fits best
12:14:48 <planetmaker> literal translations fail more often than not
12:14:57 <koudy> i have to change unit for crate too
12:16:18 <planetmaker> crate is a unit...
12:16:46 <koudy> we have 2 words for that :)
12:23:51 <koudy> oh yea... i know sorry crate is unit... i meant wording for it
12:24:51 <koudy> and as for aligning... sorry i don't play OTTD in czech so i don't know too much about words used there :)
12:25:02 <norbert79> koudy: Do you know whats my favorite czech product ever? Hidden and Dangerous 2 - Sabre Squadron...
12:25:45 <koudy> i prefer english in games... but attracting people to FIRS is good thing and other might prefer to play in czech so i just offered my skills with english (which i think are quite on decent level)
12:26:01 <koudy> best czech one is Original War
12:26:07 <norbert79> Best Sandbox WW2 game ever
12:26:16 <koudy> until now one of the most original and innovative RTS i have ever played
12:26:37 <norbert79> I prefer Round Based Strategy, Steel Panthers World At War
12:27:06 <norbert79> Despite it's graphic the game still rocks
12:27:36 <koudy> Civ5 might be good choice then
12:28:17 <koudy> and Turn based... uhm for me... thinking... thinking... Silent Storm, Jagged Alliance 2... these 2 i guess
12:28:21 <norbert79> Nah, I prefer Colonel level of control, like in SpWaW
12:28:29 <norbert79> Heores of Mightn and Magic III
12:29:25 <norbert79> Played 4 and 5 too, 3 still beats both
12:30:04 <koudy> i think 5 = improved 3 :)
12:30:15 <koudy> 4 was good but had too big maps
12:30:37 <norbert79> nah, not even close... It still looks awesome, and reintagreted some III features, but it lacks the innovation and they changed the whole fighting system :(
12:30:47 <norbert79> going from grids to boxes
12:31:18 <koudy> speaking of these... Age of Wonders Shadow Magic ;)
12:32:21 <norbert79> What about Masters of Magic?
12:32:31 <norbert79> Kinda Civilization 1 and HoMM kinda mix
12:33:35 <Mortomes|Work> Silent Storm was fun
12:33:51 <Mortomes|Work> I loved how pretty much the entire environment could (and typically would) be destroyed :D
12:34:25 <Mortomes|Work> Just keep shooting at an enemy behind a wall for long enough and you would destroy the wall :P
12:35:26 <norbert79> And I just bought Swat 4 Gold, planning for installing it
12:36:05 <koudy> Mortomes : oh yea... where is the staircase? oh never mind, i will create own access using this grenade with removed pin :D
12:36:14 <norbert79> I mean i am total into fighting, military kinda based things, and it sounds a real challenge to me
12:36:25 <norbert79> since I love to play coop in HD2 SS
12:39:02 <norbert79> I am just curious how well I could do with Swat 4, since I already play these games like real
12:40:54 <Mortomes|Work> koudy: Grenades are for pansies, bazookas is where it's at.
12:42:04 <norbert79> Mortomes|Work: But Bazookas hurt more, if you drop them on your feet :)
12:44:48 <Mortomes|Work> norbert79: Pansy!
12:45:08 <koudy> is there country based statistic of ottd downloads?
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12:48:10 <TrueBrain> says little about downloads, just general visitors :)
12:49:36 <koudy> that's the one i wanted, tho there are no country stats
12:50:25 <dihedral> TrueBrain, that says little about downloads, just general visitors
12:50:34 <TrueBrain> dihedral: mirror mirror on the wall
12:50:43 <Rubidium> you mean stats that show how much is downloaded from which country?
12:50:47 <TrueBrain> koudy: so if you want, average the one, apply it on the other :p
12:51:03 <koudy> it's after clicking on the month
12:51:17 <koudy> doesn't come combined all together but it's fine
12:51:27 <Rubidium> CZ:5.73657202197:921190:742.362145143
12:51:28 <Rubidium> DE:4.70468412629:770103:638.31696339
12:51:28 <Rubidium> NL:4.77212373072:668552:659.619017817
12:51:28 <Rubidium> GB:4.51437508259:644724:589.065157135
12:51:28 <Rubidium> US:3.37797604471:523864:506.157234064
12:51:28 <dihedral> now i understand why people never find anything on wiki.openttd.org
12:51:34 <dihedral> it's not after clicking on ....
12:51:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: that is mirror information :p
12:51:45 <norbert79> Hmm, 1.0.4 downloaded 13430 times this week... Wow
12:52:05 <koudy> i was trying to google all this and used wiki :)
12:52:06 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: but *those* are the stats that show from which country openttd was downloaded
12:52:30 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: was downloaded, yes. But he wanted to know from which country
12:52:30 <koudy> so am i blind or is this link really nowhere on the site?
12:52:37 <peter1138> What is each number?
12:52:39 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you are being nitpicking again :p
12:53:06 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: so you say he wants to know downloaded in (or to) a particular country
12:53:17 <peter1138> Country, ???, Downloads, GB?
12:53:22 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I am really not going to do this with you :)
12:53:45 <peter1138> Gosh, Webalizer. Not seen that in a long time.
12:53:53 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: luckily we don't log that information
12:54:25 <norbert79> Wouldn't make too much sense neither
12:54:34 <norbert79> just think on office networks
12:55:18 <TrueBrain> they are still in the general country
12:55:27 <TrueBrain> 99% of the cases :p
12:55:50 <TrueBrain> I truly doubt people who live in Germany go to Finland to sit in an office, every day
12:56:03 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Yet his/her connection might be placed elsewhere
12:56:30 * Rubidium postulates that those effects negate eachother on the large scale
12:56:48 <TrueBrain> even if it holds true, you most likely are right Rubidium :)
12:56:51 <dihedral> norbert79, in the companies where that is the case i doubt you will ever download openttd. yet alone be able to
12:57:33 <Rubidium> also, the number of downloads (or copies) say little about the usage
12:57:51 <dihedral> esp. on multiplayer :-D
12:58:01 <TrueBrain> norbert79: to avoid silly PMs: you are located in the UK
12:58:16 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Good luck finding me there ;-)
12:58:31 <TrueBrain> for all statistical purposes, I don't care otherwise
12:59:25 <TrueBrain> VPN, anonymoziers, all exist and give different country data. On the large skill of users, it is not noticable
12:59:32 <Rubidium> and I'm in Canada (at least if my IRC client connected over IPv6)
12:59:43 <TrueBrain> LOL! Did I really wrote skill? :D
13:00:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: and in fact it is correct .. if you download a file, it goes over Canada
13:00:30 <koudy> if you check my info on IRC i should be visible in canada too ;)
13:00:38 <koudy> that's where our company proxy is
13:00:47 <norbert79> and I would doubt it, many use Tor kinda solutions, or work for big companies, who download the application and play home offline, or in the office, and do not play home... We don't know, but I doubt it is not a n ammount which is 'unnoticable'
13:01:11 <TrueBrain> norbert79: and all doesn't matter _at all_ for any of those stats
13:01:33 <TrueBrain> well, tbh, I see no use of country data, but okay :)
13:01:34 <norbert79> it does, one example: you might only see 1 IP, but what if there are for example 10.000 users behind that IP?
13:01:35 <Rubidium> it *is* unnoticable from out point of view
13:01:41 <TrueBrain> the only thing we use it for is mirror-assignment
13:02:15 <SpComb> tsk, mirror assignment should be based on internet topology
13:02:17 <Rubidium> at least, I'm assuming your proxy isn't going to send out the internal IPs you're using
13:02:47 <Rubidium> also if it's a proper proxy only one request needs to be made from the company and everything else will just be fetched from the proxy
13:02:50 <TrueBrain> SpComb: ghehehehehe; if only such data would be (easily) available :D
13:02:53 <norbert79> Rubidium: Exactly, so if even 10.000 users watch the openTTD page, it's still 1 IP
13:03:04 <TrueBrain> norbert79: his point, only 1 request
13:03:15 <Rubidium> beyond that, why would a company proxy allow downloading of archives or executables?
13:03:31 <TrueBrain> why would it allow you on IRC?
13:03:42 <norbert79> Rubidium: Exactly my point too... Why not?
13:03:46 <Rubidium> norbert79: and thus from our point of view there is only one user and we don't notice there are 10.000
13:04:10 <norbert79> Rubidium: So you might have even more visitors
13:04:11 <TrueBrain> download stats are corrupted anyway by all those linux repos
13:04:11 <Rubidium> as such, company networks are unnoticable
13:04:19 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Thats valid too
13:04:29 <TrueBrain> so in fact, this whole conversation is void and silly
13:04:32 <Rubidium> and those that just mirror our website
13:04:38 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Yet offering repo solutions would solve that problem
13:04:49 <TrueBrain> how would that solve anything?
13:05:07 <norbert79> Well only, if you are interested of all real downalods
13:05:14 <norbert79> I don't know if thats the case
13:05:29 <Rubidium> but what constitutes to a "real download"?
13:05:39 <SpComb> TrueBrain: access to the BGP table at each mirror site
13:05:39 <TrueBrain> what ever we do, 'apt-get install openttd' will always use debian mirrors if executed on debian ..
13:05:57 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Not if you override that with an additional repo
13:06:02 <TrueBrain> SpComb: well, we only need it at one location in fact, but even that is not accurate, as it depends on your peering
13:06:08 <norbert79> because debioan always offers the oldest
13:06:12 <TrueBrain> norbert79: and for taht I need to ... hack debians mirror?
13:06:45 <norbert79> TrueBrain: No, but use solutions like for Wine, offering PPA repos, you can have also your own, it's not rocket science to set up one
13:07:02 <norbert79> TrueBrain: And when users include your repo, every apt-get install openttd will go to you
13:07:12 <norbert79> instead of debians own
13:07:20 <TrueBrain> and how many users will do that?
13:07:30 <SpComb> TrueBrain: measure the return path to the request's source from each mirror location
13:07:36 <Rubidium> norbert79: I'm not that sure about that
13:07:38 <TrueBrain> either you don't know how lazy users are, or live in a fictional world :D
13:07:50 <TrueBrain> SpComb: not always that easy, but yeah .. lets go for that :D
13:07:58 <norbert79> Rubidium: Well, I have never seen anyone from the Linux gamers, who always rely on built in repos... Just take Wine for example
13:08:01 <Rubidium> (at least for unstable users)
13:08:17 <SpComb> I use wine from debian's repos
13:08:18 <norbert79> Rubidium: Even Videolan's VLC is being offered as PPA repo, official comes with older versions
13:08:20 <TrueBrain> but Debian is a special world, lets run the story again for Ubuntu
13:08:33 <norbert79> SpComb: Which version do you got?
13:08:38 <TrueBrain> or .. what are those others?
13:08:55 <norbert79> SpComb: apt-cache info wine
13:08:55 <TrueBrain> Gentoo does use our urls .. so thatone doesnt need any attention ..
13:08:56 <Rubidium> Ubuntu is a hassle because you need to do massive upgrades every 6 months
13:09:05 <norbert79> Rubidium: Unless you use LTS
13:09:10 <SpComb> norbert79: I hardly care, 'cause it works for me
13:09:11 <norbert79> which I also tend to
13:09:12 <TrueBrain> the point is: 90% of the users will just use the built-in repos
13:09:14 <TrueBrain> they are lazy, and like that
13:09:27 <norbert79> SpComb: Well, latest is 1.3.4 and it always comes with massive improvments...
13:09:56 <norbert79> SpComb: You never get the latest with official ones
13:10:04 <Rubidium> norbert79: name me one repository that releases the equivalent of 1.3.4 for OpenTTD
13:10:39 <norbert79> Rubidium: Thats my point, there is none, since you offer packages already, but not through a repo
13:10:55 <norbert79> Rubidium: But having repo support would do things to your favor
13:11:01 <norbert79> but thats only my opinion
13:11:02 <Rubidium> in any case, by the popcon stats of Debian 75% uses unstable or testing OpenTTD, which is 1.0.4
13:11:25 <TrueBrain> I guess the lovely thig about OpenTTD is, that most OSes are pretty quick in updating
13:11:28 <Rubidium> norbert79: we don't offer the equivalent of Wine 1.3.4 for OpenTTD
13:11:44 <TrueBrain> so having our own repo would only increase our workload, for no visible effect
13:11:46 <norbert79> Rubidium: There is a misunderstanding from your side, Wine was just an example
13:12:07 <TrueBrain> not to start about the fact our CF misses a few targets Debian has
13:12:13 <Rubidium> as wine 1.odd.* are just once-every-two-week trunk dumps
13:12:14 <TrueBrain> (arm, hhpa, mips, ..)
13:12:26 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Would doubt it, but it's up to you... You already produce binaries with automatic solutions, that wouldn't be so different
13:12:40 <TrueBrain> there simply is no 'market' there
13:12:44 <TrueBrain> and is a complete waste of time
13:12:48 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Noone really asks you on producing it for all archtitectures
13:12:57 <norbert79> TrueBrain: I am all fine with current selection
13:13:52 <norbert79> but it sucks, that when I am using Ubuntu for e.g I have to wait either for getdeb.net or wait a few more weeks or update manually, instead just having apt-get update instantly after few hours of the last release
13:14:13 <norbert79> thats why I use the 'one directory' method
13:15:14 <Rubidium> so... how to differentiate between wanting the release candidates and not?
13:16:36 <Rubidium> and I've once looked into automatically building a Debian package repository, but it wasn't as trivial as I hoped it to be
13:16:42 <norbert79> Rubidium: I am a lazy user, I like using Ubuntu, I am using LTS... For LTS-es you don'tr always upgrade your whole distribution, you just go with the latest versions from all those different repos... In Windows it's easy: download, install, thats it... But if you are on Linux, it's a bit different... Packaging systems have their pros and cons, but it would be nice having the support from the owner itself, like with Wine, or OpenOffice/
13:17:04 <TrueBrain> norbert79: you 'silently' changed the subject from you wanting to be able to update instantly, to our initial point that having such repos does not help us count downloads any better
13:17:16 <TrueBrain> N% of the users will use the default repos, where N is very high
13:17:45 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Well, Ubuntu has the most users, and offering them an official repo to OpenTTD would be also a good 'marketing thing' for attracting more players
13:17:46 <TrueBrain> therefor, it won't help to better track downloads by setting up our own repos
13:18:02 <Rubidium> well, we'll only support Ubuntu's LTSes for like 1 year. After that... bye bye LTS
13:18:18 * Rubidium is using the simple policy of 2 suites per distro
13:18:23 <norbert79> Rubidium: Which is a bad choice, since LTS's are supported for 3 years
13:18:23 <TrueBrain> for some reason it seems you want to get a 'win' out of this discussion, while you know you lost on the subject we talked about? (seriously asking here)
13:18:52 <Rubidium> norbert79: but *I* don't want to maintain like 6 Ubuntu compile farms
13:19:24 <norbert79> I was never looking for a Win-Losing situation, I just don't think, that sticking to your current layout will still be a good choice after 5 years.. I feel kinda dead water thing right now, where Linux distributions gathering attraction day by day
13:19:30 <Rubidium> also, if you want LTS you want long-term-stability which means you don't want the newest version
13:20:09 <TrueBrain> norbert79: if we can agree that it will never help to get a 'real downloadcount', setting up such repos, we can talk about the posibility of doing it anyway for promition, sure
13:20:12 <norbert79> Rubidium: Under Windows you never upgrade from Xp to Windows 7 just being able to run 1.0.4 instead of 1.0.3, right? In Linux you have to, because the official repos do not offer latest packages
13:20:17 <norbert79> despite there are no huge changes
13:21:08 <TrueBrain> well, not for ubuntu, as ubuntu kind of sucks in the respect Rubidium explained
13:21:27 <Rubidium> norbert79: true, but... if I compile for Windows 2000 it still works just fine in Windows 7. If I compile for Ubuntu 9.10, it definitely doesn't work in 10.04
13:21:28 <norbert79> TrueBrain: No, Debian is only slower, but they will also transform to the 6 months cycle :-S
13:21:28 <TrueBrain> there even has been initial work for it, but somehow it died .. dunno why
13:21:56 <norbert79> Rubidium: Well, those generic binaries do work on both, can confirm that... So you can just use that all the time
13:22:35 <Rubidium> those generic binaries are a hack because they just link statically to a shitload of libraries
13:22:55 <TrueBrain> oeh, fat binaries :D
13:23:00 <norbert79> Rubidium: I know, but it doesn't differ too much from Windows, insdtead of statically linked library you use DLL's
13:23:09 <norbert79> I am fine with those fat ones, I don't care, it works
13:23:25 <norbert79> thats the only thing which counts for me
13:23:45 <norbert79> It's like back in DOS times... :)
13:23:47 <Rubidium> then use the generic ones
13:23:58 <norbert79> but those would be also nice as a package
13:24:41 <norbert79> never mind, I understand your concerns and issues, but I just thnik adding repos to your service would attract more users
13:25:20 <norbert79> Skype works the same way
13:25:33 <TrueBrain> and his point is that it would increase our workload a lot, which makes the gain very low for the effort
13:25:59 <TrueBrain> someone should donate to use like 3 Dual Quadcore machines
13:26:16 <norbert79> a lot? How do you create those binaries? It would be just one additiona step for creating those RPM/DEB, whatever packages...
13:26:48 <norbert79> You would not recompile the binary, but just boundle the latest generic binary...
13:27:00 <TrueBrain> argh, again people with all those assumptions!! Stop assuming and start asking .. (sorry, general annoyance of this channel, people always assume so many things, and nobody cares to ask)
13:27:03 <Rubidium> norbert79: roughtly the same way Debian makes them; the diff between the OpenTTD "spec" and Debian's one are pretty small
13:27:58 <Rubidium> also I fear the generic binary's libraries are all vulnerable by now :(
13:28:12 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Well, after few questions I was getting tired of being refused on any idea, which is the case again... I also lived through this back in 2007 (?), when you moved to UTF-8 and told users: go solve yourself your special character problems...
13:28:14 <Rubidium> just didn't have the time to update them
13:28:33 <norbert79> Rubidium: Yeah, true
13:28:44 <TrueBrain> norbert79: so you consider that your idea is refused while we just explain the increase in workload and problems attached to it?
13:28:45 <norbert79> There must have been some security updates by now
13:29:01 <norbert79> TrueBrain: No, I just feel like an instant refusal on ANY idea all the time
13:29:20 <TrueBrain> the world is not easy :)
13:29:32 <TrueBrain> remember that lots of suggestions are already made like 100 times
13:29:34 <Rubidium> and there's absolutely no problem dynamically linking against vulnerable libraries, as long as the one on the user's system is not vulnerable
13:29:53 <Rubidium> i.e. maintaining the Debian compile farm is the easiest
13:30:07 <TrueBrain> so what to you is a new idea, is something Rubidium for example answered 100 times. So yes, he has his answer ready :)
13:30:15 <Rubidium> (the least amount of changes)
13:30:37 <TrueBrain> (difference of perspective and all)
13:30:45 <Rubidium> then comes the Windows one, where the update is occasionally replacing the linked libraries in one go
13:31:02 <TrueBrain> but so once again, if we would have the processing power, we could have a VM for each Ubuntu and Debian release, increasing the easiness of such releases
13:31:09 <Rubidium> then come the generic Linux one, where it's also just updating some libaries
13:31:38 <Rubidium> and finally, at the bottom, is dear old Ubuntu with it's "oh, there's a new version" every two OpenTTD releases
13:31:53 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Wouldn't be at least a sign of need of reconsideration? :)
13:31:53 <norbert79> Rubidium: Awww, wouldn't be so sure on that
13:31:53 <norbert79> TrueBrain: If one user asks, it might be just a seperate issue, but if 100 ones asking for it, well, I would at least reconsider :)
13:31:53 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Like if I would start singing :D
13:31:53 <norbert79> Rubidium: Just think on SSL coding related issues... I know it doesn't affect the game, but it's not that logical
13:31:58 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you forgot the mac!! :D
13:32:04 <norbert79> wow, that was a kinda huge lag
13:32:14 <norbert79> let me read you Rubidium
13:32:23 <Rubidium> if we would be following Ubuntu's officially supported ones, we need 6 different compile farms
13:32:40 <Rubidium> (or actually 12 due to amd64 and i386)
13:32:56 <TrueBrain> norbert79: even if 100000 people ask for something: if it is not praticle for us to do, we don't do it. After all, we run this for free, and don't get anything in return (not in something of which we can make a living anyway)
13:33:28 <TrueBrain> it is silly to expect that any 'new' idea any person in the community brings to the table, has to be reconsidered over and over
13:33:34 <norbert79> Rubidium: Thats why my idea was just packaging the generic binaries, and offer the repo for RPM, DEB, etc... It would be still the same binary, just in different packaging methods...
13:33:36 <TrueBrain> we are not stupid, we consider ideas all the time :)
13:33:39 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: well, Mac is probably below ubuntu because that takes ages to get somewhere into a state that resembles the way it's meant to be by Steve
13:33:47 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: my point :D
13:33:57 <norbert79> Rubidium: So true :)
13:34:12 <TrueBrain> norbert79: ever tried to make a deb on a Gentoo machine?
13:34:42 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Not yet, but I know fellows who did it... I think OpenOffice hungarian packages were also done on gentoo based machines
13:34:55 <TrueBrain> it is _very_ hard to make compatible debs
13:35:01 <TrueBrain> just to name one issue with 'repackaging'
13:35:15 <TrueBrain> for that reason, we decided to make VMs for each target, and execute it on that
13:35:22 <TrueBrain> avoids tons of issues, complexity and maintaince
13:35:38 <TrueBrain> but again, you were not asking, you were just stating (which to us reads: YOU GUYS ARE STUPID I KNOW BETTER :p) (just to show our perspctive)
13:35:58 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Ok, whats the issue? You just would repackage the genric binary to DEB and RPM.. It's just a different layout of directories, not a need for total recompile of the "same" code
13:36:03 <Rubidium> oh, the Gentoo being too new and therefor the binaries wouldn't run on Debian/Ubuntu issue?
13:36:14 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Never stated something like that
13:36:19 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: don't let us get started about that :D
13:36:25 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Don't feed words into my mouth which I never said
13:36:28 <TrueBrain> still remember the whole libexpat stuff ...
13:37:25 <TrueBrain> norbert79: don't get me wrong, and I don't mean anything bad. Just all the time I read here from tons of people: well, I would just do it like this. Should be easy. Like .. hello!! We are not stupid! We consider stuff! Ever occoured to you asking how stuff is done atm, and why! That was all I was saying :) Nevermind :)
13:37:47 <TrueBrain> so lets change to being constructive:
13:37:50 <TrueBrain> we repackaged in the passed
13:37:53 <TrueBrain> it was a total failure
13:37:58 <TrueBrain> (for tons of reasons)
13:38:08 <TrueBrain> to make our workload less, we decided to only produce binaries of which we have the OS running
13:38:13 <TrueBrain> so we have a Debian Lenny VM
13:38:21 <norbert79> TrueBrain: I have gone through lots of material, trust me on this, I just wanted to share you my ideas, but you instantly run over me why my ideas are totally wrong
13:38:24 <TrueBrain> and we produce binaries for those targets
13:38:38 <TrueBrain> no, we explain what our experience is, and what issues we deal with
13:38:45 <TrueBrain> but enough about that, lets be constructive
13:39:01 <TrueBrain> the above, is our current problem and issue and reason for this solution
13:39:17 <TrueBrain> repackaging is simply not an option as it has failed in the past, and costs us a lot of time and effort
13:39:35 <norbert79> TrueBrain: My idea was just, that since the generic fat executables work on LOT distribtuions it would be a good idea just offering them not only as a ZIP, but also as a package... Not a different executable for all the repos, but offering a DEB for debain based package systems, RPM for RPMs, etc using the same generic binary
13:39:51 <norbert79> also in a form of a repo
13:40:02 <TrueBrain> how to rephrase it ...
13:40:07 <TrueBrain> a deb has to be made on a debian OS
13:40:10 <TrueBrain> else failures happen
13:40:23 <TrueBrain> a rpm can be made on more systems, but has shown issues too .. those are less importance
13:40:24 <norbert79> You can create a DEB even on RedHat
13:40:39 <TrueBrain> haha, you know how often they fail? It is amusing :)
13:40:44 <TrueBrain> remember we need a maintaince free solution
13:40:49 <TrueBrain> we don't have time to change stuff every month or so
13:41:07 <norbert79> But what can fail on that, really? You will not offer more, than the binary, and the additiona files, no dependencies
13:41:13 <TrueBrain> (I am btw against static binaries for all kinds of reasons, but lets put that aside)
13:41:20 <norbert79> I am still riddled why you always mention failures
13:41:28 <TrueBrain> because we have tried so many things
13:41:31 <TrueBrain> and failed so often
13:41:37 <TrueBrain> there is always a system that can't handle general solutions
13:41:38 <Rubidium> did I already mention that Debian likes some files to be at different locations from e.g. Fedora?
13:41:54 <TrueBrain> FHS .. another disaster story :)
13:42:03 <norbert79> but those are the only differences... I know, I used to be a Fedora guy, but then changed to Debian
13:42:16 <Rubidium> if you release a .deb I would reckon that it follows the Debian rules, likewise for a .rpm
13:42:26 <TrueBrain> 'only differences' .. any idea how hard it is to maintain those?
13:42:37 <norbert79> Rubidium: Ubuntu also uses DEB
13:42:44 <norbert79> Rubidium: Doesn't follow Debian rules
13:42:51 <norbert79> it follows only the deb structure
13:43:00 <norbert79> yet works both on Debian and Ubuntu
13:43:06 <Rubidium> although for .rpm it's a big mess, e.g. how is the freetype library called?
13:43:16 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: we talked about static binaries ;)
13:43:24 <norbert79> Yet the generic binary works also on Fedora too :)
13:43:32 <norbert79> Static, yes, thank you
13:43:37 <TrueBrain> there is a huge security issue with static binaries
13:43:41 <TrueBrain> and something that should be avoided
13:43:44 <TrueBrain> but for the shake of argument
13:43:45 <norbert79> Thats the only Con which I can accept
13:44:17 <norbert79> that would need resolving
13:44:25 <TrueBrain> not really possible to resolve those
13:44:27 <Rubidium> does the generic binary not using opengfx/opensfx/openmsx from the Debian/Ubuntu repository count as a "con"?
13:44:33 <TrueBrain> either way, linux is not designed for static binaries; it is silly :)
13:44:42 <norbert79> TrueBrain: There is nothing which is impossible, it is only complicated :)
13:44:55 <SpComb> deliver it as a self-extracting .sh script
13:44:55 <TrueBrain> if you give us 1M euro
13:44:58 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Well, it isn't so different in Windows neither...
13:44:58 <TrueBrain> I promise you, we will have a solution
13:45:02 <TrueBrain> but there is no such thing
13:45:20 <norbert79> TrueBrain: I would do that also for free, but since you were not interested, sorry, will not offer the solution ;-)
13:45:21 <TrueBrain> SpComb: java! And lets call it Lipo!
13:45:34 <Rubidium> hmm, or was it RPM based packages not being able to use the Fedora/SuSE repository's OpenGFX/OpenSFX/OpenMSX?
13:45:51 <Rubidium> at least their shared directory differs (or is it differed by now)?
13:46:03 <TrueBrain> FHS is different from Fedora to Redhat
13:46:24 <TrueBrain> norbert79: other issue with static binaries is the hardcoded paths; but those are 'solvable' I guess
13:46:43 <TrueBrain> in either case, generating those rpms, debs, and I-dunno-what-others is not an easy job, very error-prune ..
13:47:07 <norbert79> You just repackage thje same static binary all over and over again, what can fail on that?
13:47:42 <TrueBrain> by all means, try it :)
13:47:52 <Rubidium> norbert79: something along the lines of "why does the .deb/.rpm from your repository not use the openttd-opengfx I installed"?
13:47:56 <SpComb> with the 2.0 release, once we have the kernel module, it'll be even more difficult
13:47:57 <TrueBrain> released it to the weird people we have in our community? :)
13:48:25 <norbert79> TrueBrain: Not for openTTD, but a Gnome Add-on, created a static binary, created a DEB for my Ubuntu and Fedora back then, and worked well, not dinamically done
13:49:17 <Rubidium> norbert79: the point is the location where the data files are differs between fedora and debian, as such using the static binaries will make it fail on one of those platforms to cooperate with the openttd-* packages already in there
13:49:49 <Rubidium> which is, in my opinion, not something we should be releasing
13:50:54 <Rubidium> I agree that having a repository with the openttd .debs in it would be nice, just the last time I tried it failed horribly and I haven't had the enthusiasm to start that again
13:51:11 <TrueBrain> I think we all tried it as some point :D
13:51:58 <Rubidium> also, the .rpm and .deb install shortcuts into your desktop environment. The static binaries miss those completely, though that might be only a minor thing
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14:05:07 <Rubidium> oh, regarding the generic binary: we only link libicu statically
14:06:01 <Rubidium> which means we might get into trouble if the freetype ABI changes; they went from 2.2.x to 2.4.x recently
14:06:03 <TrueBrain> we _could_ link everything static :p
14:06:09 <TrueBrain> I just really don't want to!! :p
14:06:37 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: actually... I fear linking everything static makes stuff worse
14:07:03 <Rubidium> e.g. libsdl with it's ABI to pulse, alsa, X
14:07:05 <TrueBrain> I wonder .. should libc be statically compiled? :)
14:07:22 <Rubidium> probably not, as it talks to the kernel
14:07:34 <TrueBrain> compile the kernel statically? :)
14:07:36 <Rubidium> which means we depend on a kernel ABI
14:07:52 <Rubidium> so I reckon... we need our own OS
14:08:28 <Rubidium> the main question is, though... how long it takes before the static binaries are horribly broken on some platforms due to ABI changes
14:08:54 <TrueBrain> depends on the target system
14:09:00 <TrueBrain> Gentoo in ~amd64, very fast
14:09:07 <TrueBrain> but Debian edge, if it runs once, it will run for ever
14:09:44 <Rubidium> as updating the libraries at that point in time will definitely break the ones where it used to work
14:10:29 <TrueBrain> if libSDL gets a new ABI for what ever reason, and you update the static binary, which does not contain libSDL, it will break
14:10:32 <TrueBrain> this will happen at some point
14:10:43 <TrueBrain> so the main question is: till what level do you statically include?
14:11:11 <Rubidium> currently only libicu as they ABI-break every release, which is like every few weeks or something
14:11:15 <Eddi|zuHause> sell an embedded device with openttd running on it
14:11:34 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I would keep it like that :)
14:11:42 <TrueBrain> and just continue releasing like we do
14:11:44 <Rubidium> oh, sorry every 6 months they completely ruin the ABI by changing *all* names
14:11:48 <TrueBrain> we just need more machines for the CF :)
14:16:04 <TrueBrain> (we weren't talking about the worst language available?)
14:19:03 <Rubidium> I object objectively!
14:30:56 <Belugas> hello TrueBrain (sorry for lag). My my... how many interesting conversations can this channel handle ? This is the second one in 2 days! wooooo!~!!!
14:31:34 <TrueBrain> has it been THAT BAD the last few weeks/months? :p
14:31:59 <Belugas> well... i remember a xiong who was absolute torture...
14:41:37 <Belugas> mister planetmaker :)
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16:05:00 <TrueBrain> right, spend the whole day talking to people ... meh ..
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16:28:01 <Belugas> depends to whom you speak to, and why, thoguh
16:31:47 <dihedral> you talk to planetmaker, because he is the authority :-D
16:42:55 <Belugas> damned... the number of people who wish ottd was mor realistic, on forums...
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16:57:21 <dihedral> is realism not based on ones definition of real
16:58:04 <dihedral> many people live in their own world :-P
17:08:09 <Eddi|zuHause> _every_ person lives in their own, slightly differing, world
17:09:26 <Eddi|zuHause> if you define "world" as "situations and locations that have been personally witnessed"
17:09:57 <Alberth> Belugas: adding some realistic people as 'foe' helps tremendously
17:10:35 <Belugas> my foe list would be insanely long
17:10:36 <Eddi|zuHause> the foe list of the forum is tremendously useless...
17:15:55 <frosch123> [19:10] <Eddi|zuHause> the foe list of the forum is tremendously useless... <- do you prefer whitelisting?
17:16:20 <Eddi|zuHause> frosch123: that's not what i meant :)
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17:27:29 <KouDy> can i somehow use the translation i made for FIRS?
17:27:34 <KouDy> you know ... to test things
17:29:23 <frosch123> likely it is easier if you try that when the first version has been added to firs
17:29:34 <frosch123> i.e. only alter strings instead of adding a new language :)
17:29:54 <frosch123> otoh, you can already start with installing nforenum, grfcodec, and a c compiler
17:30:39 <KouDy> i think i choose waiting for new version :)
17:32:22 <frosch123> you can also get a linux vm :p
17:36:00 <Alberth> frosch123: It took quite a while before I understood why you suggested to install those programs. :)
17:36:24 <frosch123> firs is not nml, if you mean that :)
17:36:28 <KouDy> with my "knowledge" of linux... i don't exactly consider that as best idea
17:36:29 <Alberth> I kept thinking, 'how can somebody not have that installed?' :p
17:37:31 <Alberth> KouDy: a vm should be quite harmless for experimenting
17:38:13 <KouDy> i would spend too much time on it...
17:38:22 <Belugas> given you have the resources for that :)
17:38:31 <KouDy> i am not that captivated by linux anyway...
17:38:49 <KouDy> yea i have ubuntu on laptop but that's mostly for faster booting
17:39:06 <KouDy> other than that i use it only here and there
17:39:39 <KouDy> ofc OTTD is intalled there too :D
17:42:51 <dihedral> a clicky clicky linux user
17:43:25 <Belugas> netbook as well as desktop
17:43:37 <Belugas> my son loves the netbook version :)
17:43:59 <dihedral> i assume his nickname to be root by now :-D
17:46:40 <Alberth> I would assume Belugas educates his son not to log in as root :p
17:48:08 <dihedral> Alberth, yes, but you can gain root priviliges other ways :-D
17:49:11 <Alberth> sure, make a mess while dad is working as root, then while he cleans up, sneak away, and give yourself a few more rights :p
17:49:40 <KouDy> i personally don't see much of point using terminal only
17:49:49 <Alberth> you're missing the best part of a unix machine
17:49:55 <Belugas> he does not care about root, nor roots, nor right, nor left
17:50:07 <KouDy> yes you need it, but nowadays without guis? oh please...
17:50:14 <Alberth> Belugas: a healthy attitude :)
17:50:33 <dihedral> KouDy, you'd lose your job if you have to setup a linux server and start installing gnome
17:50:39 <Belugas> but i still have to fix his system once in a while
17:50:49 <dihedral> or kde or any other windowmanager or even x
17:50:57 <KouDy> well actually... i have such server at work :)
17:51:17 <Alberth> KouDy: ever clicked the same sequence a few dozen times?
17:51:36 <KouDy> not really... it's only for testing truth to be said
17:51:39 <Alberth> a terminal allows you to automate such a process
17:51:49 <KouDy> yes but i don't need it :)
17:52:42 <Alberth> that includes eg changing lines in a file
17:52:53 <dihedral> or building FIRS :-P
17:53:27 <KouDy> i am just saying, being GUI linux user (note the word user ;) ) is no big deal, you will get your part of terminal as well
17:53:34 <Alberth> just 2 commands at the terminal (hg clone ; make) :)
17:53:46 <KouDy> i don't even know how to update ubuntu using GUI...
17:53:51 <KouDy> now that i think of it :)
17:54:17 <dihedral> then you must be faster then ubuntu itself :-P
17:55:04 <KouDy> i'm pretty sure i turned auto update off
17:57:01 <dihedral> i have mine on (at work)
17:57:09 <dihedral> just for a moment of piece
17:58:01 <KouDy> but for laptop on the airport, when you need to find out something quickly... excellent stuff
17:58:34 <KouDy> tho i do have somehow "powerfull" laptop
17:58:46 <KouDy> still linux is a lot faster
18:03:25 <KouDy> and yes, i am very thankful that you guys are doing deb installers for newbies like me :)
18:03:39 <KouDy> so thanks for all others like me ;)
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18:14:57 <dihedral> you install the deb package?
18:15:20 <dihedral> i find unzip, tar -xjf or tar -xzf a lot easier and nicer
18:15:51 <dihedral> or in fact: svn co && ./configure && make
18:23:49 <Zuu> dihedral: That would either mess up your current directory or you forgot a cd-command in there.
18:24:20 <dihedral> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk . :-P
18:25:13 <dihedral> cd is not scope of the line :-P
18:42:59 <Alberth> svn co svn://svn.openttd.org/trunk && ( cd trunk ; ./configure ) && make -C trunk :)
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19:16:29 <Eddi|zuHause> weird, i have never actually seen a train carrying two containers on top of each other before...
19:17:03 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: not been to the "centre" of the US?
19:17:29 <__ln__> i have seen, in exactly arizona
19:17:31 <Rubidium> I've seen such a train when driving on Route 66 (what a low quality piece of road that was)
19:17:41 <Eddi|zuHause> well, technically, these aren't on top of each other either :p
19:21:51 <__ln__> Rubidium: you probably saw the Kingman airport too?
19:22:00 <Rubidium> and for what it's worth, that crash was like 75 km east of that bridge
19:22:16 <Eddi|zuHause> what's that second bridge next to the road?
19:22:36 <Rubidium> I guess it used to be dual carriage way once
19:23:01 <Rubidium> after all, it's Route 66. But the I40 is more straight and such
19:26:35 <Eddi|zuHause> I40 seems to be crossing some mountain range, while 66 goes around it
19:27:10 <__ln__> "The Crookton Overpass on Historic Route 66. This was a dual roadway section of Route 66."
19:27:51 <Eddi|zuHause> weird... they have an airport in the middle of nowhere...
19:28:47 <Rubidium> which one? Grand Canyon Caverns Airport?
19:29:00 <Belugas> Flash McQueen, here we come!
19:29:37 <__ln__> the Kingman airport was interesting because there were plenty of DHL and SAS planes sitting on the field.
19:37:47 <__ln__> i didn't mean that to be a conversation killer
19:41:33 <KouDy> uhm during the day someone linked txt file with czech texts for OTTD
19:41:40 <KouDy> can someone re-link it please
19:42:09 <Eddi|zuHause> you mean you can't browse vcs.openttd.org on your own?
19:47:58 <KouDy> yea i am there... but suprisingly enough there are language files all over the place
19:48:04 <KouDy> well nvm i will keep looking then
19:56:34 <Alberth> KouDy: the above site, then 'browse source', 'trunk', 'src', 'lang'
20:00:16 <KouDy> after a while of clicking
20:01:59 <Alberth> 'grep' at a terminal would have found it in one command :p
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23:04:51 <Starn> Hey guys, long time no see..
23:06:53 <Eddi|zuHause> who the hell was that?
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23:45:35 <Belugas> must be a very important people
23:45:50 <Belugas> looks like we must have some kind of knowledge of him
continue to next day ⏵
