IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-13
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05:07:16 <GhostlyDeath> I think i'll port OpenTTD to a new platform
05:07:22 <GhostlyDeath> the Linux terminal in 80x25!
05:07:48 <GhostlyDeath> the orthographic map shall be placed on it's side
05:08:32 <GhostlyDeath> It will be a new way to play the game
05:11:11 <GhostlyDeath> Would use ncurses
05:14:29 <Terkhen> how would it display tile height?
05:16:24 <ccfreak2k> GhostlyDeath, actually, that would be a new video driver, not a new platform per se.
05:16:29 <ccfreak2k> It would just run in the terminal.
05:17:22 <GhostlyDeath> Terkhen: press some special key maybe
05:17:34 <GhostlyDeath> Kinda like how transparency works?
05:17:47 <GhostlyDeath> and display height in numbers
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05:34:45 <Terkhen> I guess the people that can make sense of nethack or dwarf fortress could make sense of this too :P
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06:43:37 <Terkhen> good morning planetmaker
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06:59:53 <planetmaker> Terkhen: what was actually the typo in OpenGFX+Trains? I don't see a difference :-)
07:00:15 <planetmaker> (but I found another typo in the German translation) ;-)
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07:24:53 <Terkhen> planetmaker: Zeyphris -> Zephyris
07:25:20 <Terkhen> also, the string STR_NAME_COVERED_PIECE_GOODS_WAGON does not seem to be used
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07:47:05 <planetmaker> that's true. Not yet :-)
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12:23:39 <planetmaker> is there a nice shorthand in (ba)sh to get all files modified in, say, the last 5 minutes?
12:27:06 <FauxFaux> zsh has all kinds of crazy glob syntax, but it's harder to understand than the perl.
12:37:26 <Yexo> something with stat -c %Y <file> (print modification date of <file> in seconds since epoch) and date +%s ?
12:39:31 <dihedral> find can probably only give you the last hour
12:40:47 <Xaroth> find / -type f -mtime -7
12:42:24 <Xaroth> find / -type f -mmin -5 or something like that
13:01:46 <planetmaker> Xaroth, thanks a lot. That does the trick :-)
13:02:09 <planetmaker> though I replace / by . ;-)
13:02:34 <planetmaker> Just need to copy the output of my create_plots script to my paper folder ;-)
13:07:12 <dihedral> could someone confirm something for me?
13:07:15 <dihedral> someone like planetmaker ? :-P
13:07:35 <dihedral> i cannot believe that rcon move requests a password, that does not sound correct to me
13:11:26 <planetmaker> dihedral, which password? That of the company?
13:11:31 <glx> hmm move just moves without checking anything else
13:11:36 <planetmaker> It doesn't need that. The rcon pw probably
13:12:28 <glx> anyway dihedral, why is there an empty comment ?
13:12:56 <dihedral> glx, mobile phone sent the post the next morning when i opened my browser again :-(
13:13:02 <dihedral> so i deleted it's content
13:13:16 <dihedral> as i faild to spot a 'delete' link
13:13:46 <dihedral> move executed server side should indeed not prompt for the password
13:13:59 <dihedral> in fact - actually it is the client that promts for the password, not the server
13:14:08 <dihedral> at least this counts for the move command
13:14:40 <glx> I guess it's easy to check that on ottdcoop server
13:14:59 <glx> as the admins are here ;)
13:15:44 <planetmaker> we don't use rcon pw, but the IRC bridge exclusively
13:16:15 <planetmaker> but when executed as server (that's what the IRC bridge does), I don't need a pw.
13:20:37 <dihedral> thank you planetmaker :-)
13:21:31 <glx> rcon pw "cmd" should do the same as cmd on the console
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13:32:33 <dihedral> glx, the move command reacts differently if executed by a client or the server
13:37:34 <planetmaker> dihedral, even if executed with rcon pw?
13:37:46 <planetmaker> if the latter is given, it shouldn't
13:38:20 <dihedral> rcon sends the entire 3rd parameter to the server in order to be executed there
13:38:26 <dihedral> it has no contact to the client any longer
13:39:45 <dihedral> the client only executes part 1 of that command
13:40:07 <dihedral> arg 2 is the password, sent in the packet PACKET_CLIENT_RCON to the server
13:40:16 <dihedral> part 3 is the command + all it's args the server should handle
13:40:30 <dihedral> the client does not touch this piece of information
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13:42:45 <glx> dihedral: by console I mean server console
13:45:07 * dihedral waves 'hello' to sir Belugas
13:46:23 * Belugas shakes hand with dihedral
13:46:58 <DorpsGek> dihedral: I have not seen hand.
13:58:31 * planetmaker wonders whether something litteral means something like 'wasted' ;-)
13:58:41 * planetmaker steals a 't' of Belugas and waves 'hello'
14:05:10 <Belugas> so.. i've got dihedral
14:05:23 <Belugas> and now planetmaker HAS MY T
14:05:37 <Belugas> and i've got a CAPS LOCK
14:05:42 * Belugas goes back to sleep...
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14:16:45 <TrueBrain> so who suited up today?
14:17:05 <Chris_Booth> I am suiting up this evening
14:17:16 <Chris_Booth> but i assume the answer is you TrueBrain
14:17:26 <TrueBrain> I am not, not really
14:17:30 <TrueBrain> but it is suit-up day
14:17:45 <Chris_Booth> ooh I didn't know that
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14:18:14 <TrueBrain> bad website, given it is not updated in a long time
14:19:20 <TrueBrain> for those with facebook :p
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14:20:53 <planetmaker> sounds like bullshit ;-)
14:21:07 <planetmaker> or like viral marketing :-)
14:21:10 <planetmaker> hey TrueBrain :-)
14:21:17 <TrueBrain> and it is pretty funny :D
14:21:36 <planetmaker> I don't need a special day for that ;-)
14:21:53 <dihedral> <planetmaker> or like viral marketing :-) <- LOL
14:23:23 <Chris_Booth> I like the roundabout
14:24:39 <davis> Barney Stinson is amazing TrueBrain :D
14:25:01 <TrueBrain> they wrote his character really well, yes
14:25:13 <davis> well it realy fits Neil Patrick Harris
14:25:36 <TrueBrain> except he is gay of course :p
14:26:02 <davis> well yeah , but i don't think it shows
14:26:06 <Chris_Booth> see when I found that out after 5 years of watching how I met your mother
14:26:12 <TrueBrain> but that makes it fun, tbh
14:26:17 <Chris_Booth> It ruined my view of the show
14:26:32 <Chris_Booth> Its like my head of department at university is called sam green
14:26:36 <davis> seriously Chris_Booth ?
14:26:45 <Chris_Booth> and for 2 and a half years sam green was a boy
14:26:51 <Chris_Booth> I then go to meet him
14:26:57 <Chris_Booth> and find out he is a girl
14:27:10 <Chris_Booth> the just upset my view of life for a few minutes
14:27:14 <davis> I think Neil patrick harris is one amazing actor , regardless of his sexuality :I
14:27:21 <Chris_Booth> davis: hasn't stoped me watching
14:27:22 <TrueBrain> you regret sending those endless porn mails now?
14:28:03 <TrueBrain> davis: it doesn't make him bad; it is just funny that you said the role fits him; but his role is to be a womanizer. While he is gay. The irony ;)
14:28:28 <davis> but e.g that both NPH and his role Barney Stinson are a big fan of magic
14:28:43 <davis> suits (hehe) somewhat well
14:29:13 <davis> and if you see NPH in interviews outside of how i met your mother he's often very much like Barney , imho
14:32:13 <Chris_Booth> you been watching the new season davis ?
14:33:33 <davis> which one is the newest?
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14:55:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i have no idea why the windows people make everything so difficult...
14:55:59 <Eddi|zuHause> colleague gave me this relais, which is connected through usb.
14:56:26 <Eddi|zuHause> he reported that the thing sometimes works, but sometimes it freezes his computer...
14:56:40 <Eddi|zuHause> he gave me the manual for it...
14:56:51 <Eddi|zuHause> it consists of 10 pages about "how to install on windows"
14:57:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and then the linux part basically consists of two lines:
14:57:23 <Eddi|zuHause> "switch on: echo -e '\xff\x01\x01' > /dev/ttyUSB0"
14:57:28 <Eddi|zuHause> "switch off: echo -e '\xff\x01\x00' > /dev/ttyUSB0"
14:58:05 <Eddi|zuHause> and it totally simply and trivially works...
14:58:30 <bryjen> ten pages because the windows instructions have to include pictures? ;)
15:00:43 <SpComb> until some weird console-kit-daemon or whichever thinks it's a braille device and tries to offer up a terminal on it
15:05:29 <Eddi|zuHause> now... where do i get a windows from where i can diagnose his freezing problem?
15:07:26 <Eddi|zuHause> but there's something seriously wrong if the longest part for installing a device is scrolling past the windows instructions...
15:10:06 <planetmaker> why is that wrong, Eddi|zuHause ?
15:10:25 <planetmaker> Would you have it explain on ten pages the meaning of "on" and "off" states?
15:10:56 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: longer than finding a matching USB cable in your room?
15:12:08 <planetmaker> That depends upon "your" and "room". I guess in the cases of the average 'you' and 'room' present in this channel: the search time might be considerably shorter than averages taken over the mean of the population out there
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15:24:13 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: omg, can you write a more annoying sentence? :D
15:25:52 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, sure ;-)
15:26:06 <TrueBrain> yeah, indeed, you just did :p
15:27:18 <TrueBrain> hello uknown entity on the web
15:27:21 <TrueBrain> how can we help you on this day?
15:28:23 <xiong> I've been talking to a few guys outside about this orthogonal/diagonal issue. Nobody can believe that you all haven't settled on a convention -- that an entire game has been built without clear consensus on whicth way is North.
15:29:13 <Eddi|zuHause> the comments in the code say north is top of the screen
15:29:25 <Eddi|zuHause> tile (0,0) is north
15:29:26 <TrueBrain> is anyone in doubt what is north?
15:29:40 <Eddi|zuHause> but north has nothing to do with diagonal...
15:29:49 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, I think you just said three contradictory things.
15:30:30 <xiong> I agree that 'north is top of screen' is reasonable -- no more logical than any convention but it's what I assumed.
15:30:33 <TrueBrain> and it is weird, why wouldn't we have settled on a convention? I mean .. after all this game is real and operational, so we did settle on something :)
15:30:54 <xiong> Seems to me, last time I was here, there was quite a bit of thrashing. So, here we go.
15:31:06 <TrueBrain> not often we throw things away
15:31:23 <Eddi|zuHause> well, the coop people had used a different notion of what is "north" in their games, but who cares about them...
15:31:40 <xiong> A single tile is not north; north is a direction. Do you mean the tile in the corner of the map, which is northernmost, is (0, 0)? I'll buy that and that's fine.
15:32:08 <frosch123> how about DIR_N then?
15:32:09 <Eddi|zuHause> let's call it "north pole". better?
15:32:24 <TrueBrain> frosch123: lets not go there :D
15:32:27 <xiong> Eddi|zuHause, Do you understand that I'm more or less ruthlessly opposed to iconoclasm?
15:32:39 <TrueBrain> in the old days, every entity had a different value for directions :D
15:32:48 <Eddi|zuHause> no, i don't understand anything you say.
15:33:03 <xiong> If the convention is that top-of-viewport is north, then we don't want to say or even hint at some alternate north.
15:33:33 <frosch123> TrueBrain: did you discuss that all day?
15:33:37 <planetmaker> xiong, the problem is that "diagonal" requires a frame of reference. And there are two: screen + grid. Which are off by 45° or so
15:33:40 <xiong> That takes the discussion into the ditch, a total waste of time. North is north is north is north is top of viewport is top of screen is facing away from player.
15:33:42 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I did what?
15:33:57 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: the code fairly unanimously sais that, but we can't force the players to believe anything
15:33:57 <frosch123> "you" can also be plural
15:34:03 <frosch123> but yes, you too :p
15:34:09 <xiong> planetmaker, That is why I'm trying to nail this to the wall so it doesn't wiggle.
15:34:18 <frosch123> you are sysop, so it is your fault. are you used to anything else?
15:34:24 <xiong> I don't care about players! I don't care about iconoclasts!
15:34:28 <TrueBrain> frosch123: well, you asked it at me, so I at least have to be included in the you :)
15:34:41 <TrueBrain> frosch123: still I wonder I discuss 'what' all day? :)
15:34:44 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, yes, they did. And probably (some) still do.
15:34:48 <planetmaker> I tried to change that :-)
15:34:56 <frosch123> he, about what is north :p
15:35:11 <planetmaker> Where's North on the North pole?
15:35:18 <TrueBrain> frosch123: no clue, just arrived :)
15:35:25 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: in the south :D
15:35:27 <xiong> There is an orthodoxy which states that north is top of viewport. If any discussion is going to move forward, then the orthodox viewpoint must be considered the only viewpoint. Okay?
15:35:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the north pole isn't even at the north pole
15:35:48 <frosch123> planetmaker: ask your "Erdinduktor"
15:36:02 <planetmaker> hehe @ frosch123 :-)
15:36:04 <Eddi|zuHause> and obviously, at the magnetic north pole, the needle points down...
15:36:10 <planetmaker> indeed... good point: North will be down
15:36:12 <xiong> I can't possibly interrupt every single description of directions on the board to state and restate the basic premise.
15:36:30 <TrueBrain> guys ... seriously. ... I think xiong is smoking something
15:36:41 <xiong> No, I'm not. I don't do that.
15:36:43 <TrueBrain> or maybe it has babblefish between what comes in and out
15:37:21 <xiong> Nor am I an it. I choose to regard you as a person, you might extend me the same courtesy.
15:37:22 <planetmaker> xiong, you'll just have to live with the fact that you'll (always) have to define which reference frame you use for directions
15:37:29 <planetmaker> Definitions won't help that fact
15:37:39 <xiong> planetmaker, No. You choose.
15:37:41 <TrueBrain> xiong: unless proven otherwise, everyone here in this chatroom is an 'it'
15:37:47 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: 99.8% of political debates [aka wars] base on people having different opinions on what the "basic premise" is.
15:38:16 <planetmaker> xiong, no, the speaker chooses his reference frame. He only has to make sure the others know _what_ he uses
15:38:31 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: you sound like my math teacher
15:38:43 <planetmaker> but... this IS math ;-)
15:38:53 <xiong> Let's put this another way. planetmaker is going to choose a direction for north. I will abide by that, period. I will discuss this game with planetmaker. Anybody who does not agree with planetmaker's definition of north, I will simply ignore.
15:38:56 <TrueBrain> well, in fact, it was the professor of Special Relativity Thereom, but the remark holds ;)
15:39:10 <xiong> planetmaker, Which way is north?
15:39:17 <TrueBrain> the opisite of south!
15:39:28 <TrueBrain> 90 degree from west
15:39:33 <TrueBrain> well, that is not true ... there is a 3rd dimension
15:39:37 <TrueBrain> what do we call that?
15:39:46 <dihedral> i call my direction north too, is my and planetmaker's north the same?
15:39:48 <xiong> Guys, I'm serious. I'm asking planetmaker; I'm not joking.
15:39:50 <TrueBrain> by all definitions?
15:40:19 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you say that north is towards top of viewport?
15:40:26 <Eddi|zuHause> how would i know what kind of directions the astrophysicists have?
15:41:16 <planetmaker> I go by the code's definition of North is up
15:41:33 <planetmaker> dihedral, north is anyway relative to the location you are at ;-)
15:41:47 <planetmaker> its definition is a local one only
15:41:56 <dihedral> i am at the top of the viewport :-D
15:42:03 <Belugas> which is what we have agreed, therefor it's the convention on which the game has been made
15:42:05 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, they have also North and South :-)
15:42:11 <Belugas> therefor... what was the questin again??
15:42:18 <xiong> Okay. That's great. Now, I don't mean to be rude, I don't want to upset anyone, and I agree that each human being and machine in this universe has his own frame of reference. But if I see anyone lay a claim to any variant definition of north, I'm putting him on /ignore immediately. Sorry; but otherwise the noise level will swamp my tiny brain.
15:42:29 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: how do you define north if your planet doesn't have a magnetic field?
15:42:50 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: relative to the sun of course
15:42:51 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, it's defined by the prograde sense of rotation.
15:43:02 <Belugas> can a planet NOT have a magetif field?
15:43:05 <TrueBrain> counter clockwise spin up
15:43:11 <Eddi|zuHause> so "right hand rule"?
15:43:12 <TrueBrain> Belugas: a planet that is not rotating :D
15:43:20 <frosch123> Belugas: i guess at least 50% of talking was about the question "what is the question"
15:43:25 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, kinda
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15:43:32 <TrueBrain> Belugas: not really, but sure :)
15:43:45 <planetmaker> Belugas, sorry, but it depends on the definition of "no magnetic field" ;-)
15:43:48 <TrueBrain> the other 10% was: is this dude for real?
15:43:49 <planetmaker> Mars has very little
15:44:04 <Belugas> rght... /me goes back to sleep...
15:44:07 <dihedral> where is north from Santa's point of view? :-P
15:44:08 *** ChanServ sets mode: +v tokai
15:44:13 <TrueBrain> oeh, I am commanded to make the food here
15:44:33 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: did you mean: "what noise does a tree make if nobody listens"?
15:44:36 <TrueBrain> I will have a talk about what is north in my kitchen
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15:44:51 <dihedral> Eddi|zuHause, yeah :-D
15:46:14 <dihedral> theoretically you should be able to go far enough south, and beyond to be heading northing again - which does however (sadly) not count for openttd
15:46:29 <Xaroth> dihedral: make it work!
15:46:45 <planetmaker> everything will work there
15:47:00 <xiong> Okay, planetmaker, I have now just ignored 3 guys who don't seem to agree with you about north. We are going to move forward now.
15:47:19 <planetmaker> I guess you ignored the wrong people. They're all nice :-)
15:47:22 <xiong> I see that the enum file defines track x, y, left, right, top, and bottom.
15:47:46 <dihedral> now planetmaker if you make a silly remark also, his ignore list will be quite amusing :-P
15:47:47 <Xaroth> you do realise that you just ignored at least 2 of the major developers of the game?
15:47:48 <xiong> I don't care if they are nice; I care if they accept your definition of north without discussion or quibble.
15:47:53 <dihedral> i wonder who he then wants to argue with
15:48:03 <Xaroth> I mean.. you take a random player's word for something that the developers defined
15:48:11 <xiong> Xaroth, Do you agree that north is top of viewport?
15:48:34 <planetmaker> xiong, it's irrelevant what they say on that aspect :-)
15:48:37 <dihedral> Xaroth, kronk! you are ignored :-D
15:48:47 <xiong> Okay, that's one less distraction.
15:48:49 <Xaroth> dihedral: I really don't care :P
15:48:50 <planetmaker> and it's probably quite irrelevant for any signal discussion
15:48:55 <xiong> I see that the enum file defines track x, y, left, right, top, and bottom.
15:49:06 <Xaroth> TrueBrain: @kick privs pwetty pwease? :P
15:49:15 *** Progman_ is now known as Progman
15:49:16 <dihedral> lol? this is about signals? and he's making a fuss about north?
15:49:18 <xiong> These names seem to be chosen wrt the tile in which the track bit is placed.
15:49:26 <dihedral> did someone say his signal had to face north? :-P
15:49:41 <Xaroth> did someone say north actually mattered?
15:50:27 <dihedral> too long a train for too short a station just aint gonna hit it, even if they face north
15:50:37 <Xaroth> but the man? is trying to argue on wind directions in a game that has no wind!
15:50:49 <planetmaker> Xaroth, OpenTTD has wind
15:51:08 <planetmaker> quiz question: how do you know which direction? ;-)
15:51:29 <dihedral> whatch the windsocks at an airfield :-)
15:51:33 <xiong> Now, a continuous length of track may consist entirely of only x or only y. But it cannot consist of only left or only top. Continuous sections involving top track alternate between top and bottom; continuous sections also alternate between left and right. Correct and clear so far?
15:51:46 <planetmaker> dihedral, won a cookie
15:51:57 <Xaroth> planetmaker: and while the windsocks show signs of wind, the trees and water do not
15:52:08 <Xaroth> so it's my belief that the windsocks are rigged
15:52:10 <dihedral> will you mail it to me?
15:52:26 <planetmaker> Xaroth, it needs far less wind for a find sock to show its direction than to stirr much trees. Water shows waves just fine
15:52:45 <dihedral> Sir dih dihedral, North Road, Northington N1 1N, Northpole
15:52:51 <planetmaker> xiong, I guess, yes
15:53:09 <Xaroth> planetmaker: just say 'north is on the bottom of the viewport'
15:53:15 <Xaroth> see how he discusses that issue.
15:53:53 <xiong> Great. So, again, I'm going to ask you for terms. I have a section of track; it is all x track. I have a section of track; it is top-and-bottom track. These are fundamentally different.
15:54:14 <dihedral> Xaroth, how about planetmaker saying: I do not believe North is where planetmaker says north is
15:54:48 <xiong> The all-x and all-y track is similar in some way. The top-and-botttom and the left-and-right track is similar, also, in the same way, but different from the x and the y track. What terms would you like to use to distinguish these two sets?
15:54:51 <planetmaker> but North surely is where andythenorth is
15:55:01 <dihedral> or where he comes from
15:55:13 <frosch123> xiong: x and y are straight tracks, there is even a function named for that
15:55:15 <planetmaker> the nick says that he is North
15:55:28 <frosch123> the other tracks are diagonal tracks, which means they are diagonal wrt. the tile, not wrt. the viewport
15:56:00 <frosch123> so, was this whole discussion about diagonal wrt. tile is not same as diagonal wrt. viewport? :o
15:56:01 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you agree that 'straight' and 'diagonal' cover this distinction?
15:56:30 <Xaroth> diagonal is no direction
15:56:38 <dihedral> north, and north west :-D
15:56:45 <planetmaker> diagonal is no direction indeed
15:57:08 <glx> I never remember which of SW-NE and SE-NW is x
15:57:13 <dihedral> passes half his cookie to Xaroth
15:57:23 <xiong> No. I speak of two classes of track. The first class includes track x and track y. The second class includes top, left, bottom, right.
15:57:27 <planetmaker> when we defined North, we can easily talk of E-W tracks and N-S tracks etc pp
15:57:49 <frosch123> glx: neither, x is from something north to something south :p
15:57:53 <michi_cc> X is SW-NE if I'm not totally off :)
15:57:54 <planetmaker> xiong, I see no point to distinguish those tracks
15:58:00 <dihedral> #define SOUTH NORTH :-P
15:58:08 <planetmaker> #define TRUE FALSE
15:58:26 <michi_cc> Or at least TRACK_X to be exact :)
15:58:37 <xiong> Well, I do; and I hope you'll extend me the courtesy. I promise to make it clear.
15:58:39 <frosch123> anyway, there is picture at the top of viewport.cpp, which is all i need to remember abou tit :p
15:58:45 <michi_cc> Who knows what other X there is.
15:58:55 <Xaroth> it's common belief that the top-right corner of the map is considered north
15:59:10 <dihedral> whoever believes there is no reason to distinguish those tracks will go on my ignore list :-P
15:59:22 <frosch123> Xaroth: maybe that originates from the heightmap players, who turn their screen?
15:59:39 <glx> top is the north corner of a tile, bottom is the south corner, that's all
15:59:57 <dihedral> so north is a corner
16:00:02 <planetmaker> xiong, I propose you first try to state the problem you want to solve. And not each step
16:00:07 <planetmaker> because there might be a much faster way there...
16:00:09 <xiong> Look, life is short. We've already spent half an hour on this topic, which is extremely boring. Without this tool, discussion cannot move into interesting territory. Can we please pick terms?
16:00:17 <frosch123> dihedral: CORNER_N is part of the Corner enum
16:00:28 <glx> dihedral: of course it's a corner :)
16:00:34 <planetmaker> xiong, that's what I initially said: pick your terms and fine
16:00:41 <Xaroth> glx: it doesn't have to be :)
16:01:07 <glx> that's how it's defined in comments
16:01:14 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you understand why it is so important for you to pick terms here? I will go along with your choices. I will /ignore anyone who does not. That's it.
16:01:37 <dihedral> if the north is in the top i prefer it being a corner, if the north is in the (quote)'diagonal' i prefer it being an edge :-P
16:01:53 * frosch123 awaits topic change
16:02:00 <glx> diagonal are placed in corners
16:02:02 <planetmaker> I'm afraid I actually don't understand the importance...
16:02:27 <dihedral> i do not get why he's so irate about it
16:02:37 <dihedral> he's only adding burnable material to the flames
16:03:04 <dihedral> so, planetmaker is the new project leader
16:03:21 <Xaroth> I wonder if TrueBrain already died laughing
16:03:28 <dihedral> anybody who does not bide by his terms is ignored by all important users in this channel
16:03:36 <planetmaker> whoot, dihedral ?
16:03:48 <dihedral> just going over the top a little :-P
16:03:51 <planetmaker> please no. I'll be the imperator of doom
16:04:29 <xiong> Then I will beg your indulgence on that meta-issue. I have got 1 hour this morning to play trains and I'm spending all of it trying to nail down a pair of terms. One term identifies the class of track {x, y}; the opposite, exclusive term identifies the class of track {top, left, bottom, right}. I have heard 'straight' and 'diagonal', respectively. Do you want to use those terms?}
16:05:21 <dihedral> xoing, you'd be better off writing some post on the forums
16:05:28 <Xaroth> he won't read you, dihedral :P
16:05:36 <dihedral> or, if you want less responses, take bugs.openttd.org
16:05:45 <dihedral> Xaroth, he probably will
16:05:58 <Xaroth> no way he can mentally ignore all of us without slipping :P
16:06:03 <dihedral> curiosity of your highlight will drive him to the logs
16:06:11 <Belugas> xiong: do you refer to directions from a user point of view or as a programmer point of view?
16:06:32 <Xaroth> Belugas: tell him north is not where he thinks he is
16:06:42 <planetmaker> xiong, I don't like straight and diagonal - they're very easily mis-understood.
16:06:48 <xiong> Belugas, Please let planetmaker speak on this. Then, you can agree or disagree.
16:06:50 <frosch123> xiong: go for "normal" and "weird"
16:06:56 <dihedral> planetmaker, aparently NORTH is too
16:07:07 <planetmaker> dihedral, but less so
16:07:23 <xiong> Okay, then, planetmaker, please choose. I strongly prefer short words if I think I might type them often and this is one of those times.
16:07:23 <dihedral> <xiong> Belugas, Please let planetmaker speak on this. Then, you can agree or disagree. <- if you disagree he will ignore you :-D
16:07:40 <dihedral> how old is this kid?
16:07:50 <xiong> frosch123, I consider planetmaker the absolute authority on this topic.
16:08:11 <planetmaker> xiong, better consider frosch123 the authority. He knows the code WAAAY better than me
16:08:41 <dihedral> planetmaker, would you please agree that this is kind of amusing?
16:08:44 <Xaroth> I too, am starting to question his age
16:08:57 <Xaroth> dihedral: amusing, yes, pathetic, even more so.
16:09:02 <frosch123> anyway, IsDiagonalTrackdir indeed considers x and y as diagonal, so wrt. viewport, not wrt. tile
16:09:09 <planetmaker> xiong, use the directions NW-SE. or use \ and / and | and -
16:09:42 <glx> frosch123: we like to be inconsistent ;)
16:10:01 <xiong> planetmaker, Have I been confusing? track x is not track y but they both belong to a single class.
16:10:15 <frosch123> yup, make's you think more about your code, so the result is better :p
16:10:21 <xiong> I do not wish to speak of track x with one of these terms-to-be-chosen.
16:10:55 <planetmaker> then use upper - and lower - and left | and right | track
16:10:58 <xiong> I want to speak of a certain class that includes both x and y. I want to speak of another certain class that includes top, left, bottom, right.
16:11:30 <xiong> Damn. You're correct: upper, lower, left, right. That is the second class. Please name these two classes.
16:11:40 * planetmaker lost now every sense of direction. Me digs a huge hole
16:12:01 <dihedral> where will the whole go to?
16:12:13 <frosch123> planetmaker: you are the authority, just tell him "class 1" and "class 2"
16:12:16 <dihedral> and what would 'down' mean if you lost every sense of direction
16:12:16 <planetmaker> the the antipodes. That way I can jojo in 90 minutes through Earth
16:13:01 <dihedral> as there is kick - i am disappointed there is not opposite, of looking someone inside a channel - as a maskot type of thing
16:13:03 <planetmaker> hm... as my authority is frosch123 I'll go by class1 and class2. Sorry
16:13:14 <xiong> planetmaker, Do I have to beg and crawl? I told you -- and I'm serious -- I have 1 hour this morning to play trains. I'm spending it all on these two terms. I need these.
16:13:28 <frosch123> specifically "enum { CLASS1 = 0, CLASS2 = 1};"
16:13:32 <xiong> Please don't make a joke of it. I'm deadly serious.
16:14:03 <planetmaker> xiong, I tried to talk to you in private. I can't, you refuse. I don't understand what you're heading at. And I don't understand what you want to put name tags onto. I really don't.
16:14:04 <dihedral> we need to have a warning on the OpenTTD website: this software can be addicting and may turn you into a complete and utter loony
16:14:12 <xiong> We're going to be using these terms hundreds of times over the life of the project.
16:14:33 <xiong> I have an automatic query blocker, planetmaker. I'll whitelist you.
16:14:53 <xiong> ... if I can remember how that works.
16:14:54 <dihedral> please don't move the chat away from here
16:15:13 <dihedral> else i made the popcorn for no reason
16:15:30 <xiong> I will have to go look that up.
16:15:57 <dihedral> popcorn? its sweetcorn just popped!
16:15:58 <planetmaker> well, no worries. I don't at all understand the significance
16:16:12 <Belugas> xiong: code wise, I can show you all the names we are using to define directions
16:16:14 <planetmaker> You want to draw signals IIRC
16:16:17 <Belugas> DIR_N = 0, ///< North
16:16:17 <Belugas> DIR_NE = 1, ///< Northeast
16:16:17 <Belugas> DIR_SE = 3, ///< Southeast
16:16:18 <Belugas> DIR_S = 4, ///< South
16:16:18 <Belugas> DIR_SW = 5, ///< Southwest
16:16:19 <dihedral> and you have come to that point in your authority as planetmaker
16:16:20 <Belugas> DIR_NW = 7, ///< Northwest
16:16:22 <planetmaker> We can have 8 per type
16:16:44 <planetmaker> one per direction N, NW W SW S SE E NE
16:17:01 <planetmaker> Not more not less. No matter what the tile and its orientation
16:17:02 <xiong> Belugas, I'm starting to get frustrated. Please, you are just distracting from my single, tiny point.
16:17:41 <dihedral> Belugas, you naughty naughty dev
16:17:46 <dihedral> you have no authority
16:17:50 <dihedral> planetmaker mas that
16:17:53 * planetmaker hugs the big white whale :-)
16:18:01 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot find quickly any docs on the query blocker; I'm sorry. I installed it to combat query flooding on another server.
16:18:18 <planetmaker> well, don't worry about it
16:18:22 <Belugas> xiong, i'm sorry but i am trying to give you the answer you are seeking. These are all the names we are using for directions. therefor, if you like them, it's the best way to actually define your problem.
16:18:28 <xiong> I have the enum files open in several tabs.
16:18:37 <planetmaker> I don't mind, but I don't understand what you're heading at or what point you try to make
16:19:00 <dihedral> he's not made a point so far, has he?
16:19:25 <dihedral> i mean, he's only been ignoring people, pointing in random directions and non-directions, and declaring authority
16:19:56 <dihedral> i declare authority to alain2007
16:20:28 <dihedral> there is no use of that when he's not here to chat
16:20:45 <glx> we have not enough voiced anyway
16:20:52 <dihedral> you can change that :-P
16:20:58 <dihedral> voice all appart from :-D
16:21:19 <frosch123> hmm, noone put "north is north" in the topic yet :o
16:21:21 <dihedral> glx, there is +q though which does stand for 'quiet'
16:21:33 <xiong> Okay, that just changed everything. I had a meeting for 11 am which has just been rescheduled to tomorrow.
16:21:37 <frosch123> i really expected that, when glx op'd
16:21:51 <dihedral> you can do it frosch123
16:21:56 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot easily explain why I need the terms, without having the terms.
16:22:03 <glx> I don't need to be op for that :)
16:22:17 <xiong> Do you understand clearly which classes I point to?
16:22:21 <dihedral> i cannot say what a it is if you do not tell me what it is
16:22:29 <frosch123> dihedral: i only have mental authority :p
16:22:43 <dihedral> frosch123, there is a bot named DorpsGek
16:22:47 <dihedral> even i could change the copit
16:22:51 <planetmaker> xiong, not really. I know there are - | / and \ track pieces
16:22:57 <xiong> The terms previously advanced were 'straight' and 'diagonal'. I understand you don't like these. That's fine; please choose others.
16:23:05 <planetmaker> - and | can be on a tile in two positions. That's it for me
16:23:25 <dihedral> in your authority as man :-D
16:23:37 <dihedral> as a cookie giving human being
16:23:49 <xiong> planetmaker, Are you okay with the enum definitions track_x, y, upper, lower, left, right?
16:24:09 <dihedral> planetmaker, please say yes, please please please
16:24:27 <dihedral> at least we can now find out what he's on about :-D
16:24:31 <dihedral> the story may continue
16:26:03 <frosch123> even more with track_func.h
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16:27:04 <frosch123> [18:24] <dihedral> at least we can now find out what he's on about :-D <- i think it is about "derivative work". every game using those definitions of directions is obviously a derivative of openttd, and thus gpl licensed
16:27:09 <planetmaker> let's use that then xiong. It defines both, the N, E, ... and the x,y,etc
16:27:35 <xiong> Yes, the file is very clear. So, I see 6 types of track, exclusive of intersections and special cases. I wish to classify these into 2 classes: one class includes 2 types, x and y; the other class includes 4 types, upper, lower, left, right.
16:27:52 <Hirundo> xiong: code-wise, diagonal means aligned to the grid, the other directions do not have any special name
16:28:10 <planetmaker> xiong, then it's the + and the x class
16:28:17 <frosch123> yup, diagonal and non-diagnonal
16:28:35 <Hirundo> it's your privilege to define your own names for whatever you need them
16:28:49 <planetmaker> + = | and - directions (4) and x = x and y directions
16:28:57 <xiong> Do I have to explain the entire classical frame of reference??
16:29:23 <xiong> planetmaker, x is already in use.
16:29:40 <planetmaker> overloaded notation :-P
16:30:00 <xiong> Let's not rely on case sensitivity or other fragile methods of disambiguation.
16:30:16 <xiong> This is NOT FUNNY to me.
16:30:20 <planetmaker> one is a class, one is a type, but well.
16:30:20 <dihedral> planetmaker, how are you holding up there?
16:30:31 <planetmaker> by means of strong and much tea
16:31:11 <Belugas> what about TRACK_CROSSED_DIAG, TRACK_CROSSED_STRAIGHT?
16:31:56 <xiong> planetmaker, If we're going to work together, we have to respect one another. I'm asking you to respect my desire to use terms to distinguish these classes. I'm afraid you think this is silly, therefore you are not willing to throw down a shoe, so we can move on.
16:32:33 <planetmaker> xiong, I've no clue how to name these classes... so you pick the words
16:32:38 <xiong> Belugas, I'm not speaking only of crossed track. Indeed, I'm not speaking of crossed track at all, since signals cannot be placed on crossed track.
16:32:57 <xiong> planetmaker, Okay, then, the terms 'straight' and 'diagonal' were advanced.
16:33:10 <dihedral> planetmaker, which project are you two working on :-P
16:33:24 <planetmaker> what is diagonal then, xiong ?
16:33:28 <dihedral> at least it looks like like you want to "work together" :-D
16:33:34 <xiong> This would imply that 'straight' track is orthogonal to the game grid; 'diagonal' diagonal to the game grid.
16:33:46 <planetmaker> xiong, you use orthogonal wrongly
16:33:59 <planetmaker> the grid is orthogonal. Only the z-height can be orthogonal to it
16:35:11 <xiong> planetmaker, We are defining terms. There isn't much use in picking on my choices of words, is there?
16:35:34 <planetmaker> orthorgonal means 90° angle (in normal cartesian coordinates)
16:35:35 <xiong> The purpose of defined terms is to settle issues like these.
16:36:01 <xiong> I'm not just talking for the sake of talk.
16:36:07 <planetmaker> let's call them for illustrative purposes -| class and \/ or /\ class
16:36:18 <xiong> planetmaker, I cannot do that.
16:36:18 <planetmaker> then it will remain clear and not overload traditional math terms
16:36:25 *** Prof_Frink has joined #openttd
16:36:55 <xiong> I will screw it up. I will confuse \/ with V. I will break my fingers trying to type these.
16:37:01 <dihedral> use STRAIGHT and CROOKED
16:37:22 <frosch123> STRAIGHT and ALTER are also nice, as "ALTER" may refer to both alternative direction an dalternating track :p
16:37:29 <dihedral> at least if he breaks his fingers he cannot discuss with the channels authority
16:37:53 <xiong> planetmaker, Is there some reason why 'straight' and 'diagonal' simply cannot be used here?
16:37:54 <planetmaker> xiong, ok, we've spent now like an eternity on trying to define *something*
16:38:07 <xiong> Yes, it's intensely frustrating.
16:38:21 <planetmaker> xiong, I'll always ask myself straight and diagonal... wrt what?
16:38:27 <frosch123> maybe you should go back to the question whether the definition is needed?
16:38:30 <xiong> Would you please pick two sensible terms and let us move on?
16:39:04 <xiong> No, frosch123. Because the terms are needed in order to explain why they are needed. Nobody should be forced to justify the need for terms.
16:39:37 <xiong> Words, please, planetmaker. Bear in mind that you and I will be typing these.
16:39:39 <dihedral> if the terms are needed to define why the terms are needed and what they are, would x and y not suffice
16:39:50 <Belugas> mmh... and why not using a represetation based on keyboard?
16:39:50 <dihedral> and if x and y are not ok use z and a or a and b
16:39:53 <xiong> I don't know why you want to mess around with this.
16:39:58 <planetmaker> if you don't like -| and V, then choose a modified proposal from dih: GRID-ALIGNED and non-grid-aligned
16:40:06 <Belugas> like H can be used for all straight tracks
16:40:19 <Belugas> and V for all diagonals
16:40:36 <dihedral> now Belugas that is not helping, you are not agreeing to the authority in this channel :-P
16:41:18 <xiong> Okay, planetmaker, will you buy into Belugas's proposal, which I'll restate as: H refers to track x, y; V refers to track upper,lower, left, right --?
16:41:31 <planetmaker> aaaaaah. Vice versa
16:41:56 <Belugas> dihedral, seems liek nobody agrees on anything :) it just makes it a strange conversation :)
16:42:09 <planetmaker> grid-aligned and not-grid-aligned
16:42:11 <Belugas> i agree with planetmaker
16:42:15 <xiong> Okay, I've hit my frustration limit. I'd like to work on these graphics but I cannot spend two hours every time I need to pick a pair of words.
16:42:37 <xiong> I cannot type three words to express one concept.
16:43:02 <xiong> If that's okay, then we'll do that.
16:43:18 <dihedral> i cannot imagine him ever staing in one company for longer than one hour
16:43:37 <Belugas> dihedral, maybe as an accountant?
16:43:53 <dihedral> would he get much done though?
16:43:53 <frosch123> what the discussion stopped?
16:43:55 <xiong> Fine. Then, as with the definition of north, I will abide by this convention exclusively. So that there is no question about what's been decided, I'm going to post to the forum thread. See you in a few.
16:44:04 <dihedral> i mean, "boss what shall i call these 2 draws under my desk?"
16:44:05 <frosch123> but didn't you consider that H and V mean horizontal and vertical?
16:44:27 <planetmaker> frosch123, I don't like horizontal and vertical :-)
16:45:11 <dihedral> all of this was merely for a forum post?
16:45:47 *** Mortomes has joined #openttd
16:45:58 <frosch123> i hope it is not about "sqrt(2) in ottd" again...
16:48:40 <dihedral> you're kidding right?
16:49:28 *** Chruker has joined #openttd
16:49:36 <dihedral> i hope the post does not take much longer - i need to head out :-P
16:51:08 <dihedral> i love the file comment on his second post "Demo; do not use."
16:51:13 <dihedral> it's an image... hello?
16:51:45 * Belugas wonders what would be the next part after drawing the signals. And if the demo is a real one or a fake
16:53:39 <planetmaker> as in drawn on a screenshot
16:53:40 *** TomyLobo has joined #openttd
16:54:43 <dihedral> lookes kinda photoshoped :-D
16:56:37 <Belugas> since the replacement of actual signal with these is not going to be easy, i believe
16:57:50 *** V453000 has joined #openttd
16:58:53 <V453000> hello, is PBS expected to react to a 1way block signal? when I have a PBS station entry and there are oneway block signals facing the opposite direction, the PBS entry refuses to allow them in
16:59:14 <planetmaker> I don't think it'd be a huge problem. IF there are sprites unique for each of the 8 directions
16:59:30 <dihedral> V453000, that depends on where NORTH is
16:59:52 <planetmaker> V453000, you need to read back the last one? two hours
17:00:07 <Belugas> well... since the signal is ON the track and not BESIDES it, there might be some ... diificulties
17:00:10 <V453000> sorry, dont have backlog
17:00:15 <andythenorth_> dihedral: I'm here
17:01:05 <dihedral> andythenorth_, i was not refering to you, sorry :-D
17:01:52 <dihedral> i want to read that post of xiong
17:03:59 <V453000> btw is there any way how to make removing of signs in game logged?
17:04:22 <planetmaker> V453000, don't we log that?
17:04:31 <dihedral> "subscript topic" - i'll get a notification on my phone once he replies :-D
17:04:47 <V453000> pm: I tried to find that in the .stable gamelog and it wasnt there ... dont know abou PS
17:08:13 <planetmaker> we don't log stable
17:13:42 <TrueBrain> Xaroth: he did give me a good laugh yes :D
17:13:51 <TrueBrain> it seems we all hav eto comply with his vision, which amuses me a lot :D
17:14:49 <TrueBrain> I always forget how many people come in this channel who amuse me :D
17:14:53 <TrueBrain> I should be here more often :D
17:32:53 <peter1138> Did I miss some drama?
17:33:30 <xiong> No, no drama, unless you consider the definition of 'north' dramatic.
17:34:38 <TrueBrain> peter1138: what should be a normal question was one of the funnest conversations I read in ages
17:34:45 <planetmaker> ok, you made a nice summary picture of the length "how do we call which direction" discussion. I concur to the definitions shown there
17:35:03 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: since when did you became so politic correct?
17:35:31 <TrueBrain> Yeah! You are no fun :(
17:36:06 <TrueBrain> I love you nevertheless
17:36:07 *** Belugas has joined #openttd
17:36:07 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o Belugas
17:36:37 <planetmaker> and I love you, too ;-)
17:36:50 <planetmaker> where's my dagger? ;-)
17:37:28 <TrueBrain> hide behind the north, I suggest
17:37:35 <TrueBrain> for sure we won't be able to find it back
17:37:38 <planetmaker> nope. North is too common right now
17:37:48 <planetmaker> I hide in the far South. But pssst!
17:38:30 <TrueBrain> after all, I talked about it with friends over here, and we really don't understand why this game never settled on what is north
17:38:56 <TrueBrain> owh, now I am just mocking people
17:39:08 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: that is an interesting statement ... how far you have to go south to end up north?
17:39:08 <planetmaker> North is where... andy is. Look at the nick^
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17:39:46 <planetmaker> magnetic monopoles!
17:40:07 <TrueBrain> ghehe: are you dipolar? :D
17:40:35 <TrueBrain> back to more serious talk: how are you doing planetmaker? :)
17:40:51 <planetmaker> I hope I have more than two poles. At least quadrupolar ;-)
17:41:05 <planetmaker> I'm procrastinating too much, but fine :-)
17:41:14 <xiong> planetmaker, Please post to thread. Thank you.
17:42:06 <planetmaker> There's no question asked, no problem to be solved I can help with
17:42:15 <Rubidium> yay... 26.1 kB/s @ 140km/h
17:42:18 <TrueBrain> and how is OpenTTD doing? Any kewl new features? :)
17:42:26 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: stop using train wlans
17:42:48 <Rubidium> but... then I can't procrastinate as much in the train
17:42:54 <planetmaker> hm... cool feature: newgrf versions ;-)
17:43:17 <TrueBrain> what is "newgrf versions"?
17:43:26 <planetmaker> action14 defining a version
17:43:37 <planetmaker> so the newest can be picked and exclusively shown available
17:43:42 <TrueBrain> oeh, which brings me to the next quesiton: is ttdpatch dead yet?
17:43:44 <planetmaker> unless you know the proper setting in the cfg
17:43:51 <TrueBrain> oeh, that is nice :)
17:43:54 <planetmaker> for certain definitions of dead ;-)
17:43:56 <Belugas> [13:39] <planetmaker> North is where... andy is. Look at the nick^ <-- nick... not dick... blaaaa CCOOOFFEEEEE
17:44:08 <TrueBrain> Belugas: I thought you were passed that age
17:44:11 <planetmaker> :-O Belugas you narty little boy!
17:44:35 <xiong> planetmaker, I would like your public endorsement. This is the way that we will discuss these things from now on, yes? You're free to change your mind now; later, not so much.
17:44:36 <planetmaker> go home! Fast. Bring flowers. And whatever it takes ;-)
17:44:41 <Rubidium> there was a TTDP commit this quarter
17:44:44 <Belugas> i read dick... i told myself not good...
17:44:51 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: LOL! YOU ARE SO SCREWED!
17:44:56 <TrueBrain> you have a countdown on your thoughts :D
17:45:33 <TrueBrain> I am so going to sue you if your change your mind late ron :D
17:45:34 <planetmaker> xiong, I tell you here and now "fine". What else? Why...?
17:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20920 /trunk/src/lang/ (indonesian.txt unfinished/basque.txt unfinished/thai.txt):
17:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: basque - 110 changes by bellota
17:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: indonesian - 5 changes by prof
17:45:39 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: thai - 17 changes by kenny
17:46:38 <xiong> planetmaker, You suggested the thread. Is this now wrong?
17:46:53 <xiong> Do you want me to open a wiki for this? I'm happy to do so.
17:46:53 <planetmaker> it's a good summary graphic and might be even used in some documentation similarly.
17:47:06 <TrueBrain> LIES! It misses roads!
17:47:09 <planetmaker> I proposed you start a thread to post your signal graphics
17:47:31 <planetmaker> and not a thread on... directions, Nothings and whatever
17:48:11 <planetmaker> s/Nothings/Northings/ (to get cartography terms right) ;-)
17:48:13 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: but that is the only new amasing feature? Newgrf something? You can't do better? :D
17:48:26 <xiong> If you're willing to participate, I'm willing to do this work. But in order to draw, I must know what I'm drawing; to know, I must ask questions; to ask, I must be able to use terms we all agree upon -- 'all' in this case being you and I and perhaps anyone else who is also interested.
17:49:03 <xiong> If you're not willing to commit to those terms, then there's something wrong with them, which needs to be fixed before moving on.
17:49:12 <planetmaker> omg. xiong Now, the 3rd time at least: each signal has _eight__ bloody directions it can face, North, NorthEast and so on
17:49:23 <planetmaker> Each needs ONE sprite
17:49:45 <glx> no complicated definitions needed
17:49:46 <planetmaker> Nothing else to worry. Nothing else needs agreeing upon. That's all that there is to signal newgrf replacements
17:49:59 <xiong> Yes; and that's a completely different issue. I understand that this is very complicated. I also know that I can't move on without a complete understanding.
17:50:21 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: lol @ 'Pro' in that sentence :D
17:50:25 <xiong> I have questions to ask that I cannot ask without words to ask them in.
17:50:52 <xiong> I don't understand why this is an issue. Words may not be free but they are cheap.
17:50:54 <planetmaker> well. Then ask your questions. Don't ask to ask, just ask
17:51:25 <glx> but don't forget signals can be placed on both sides (depending on game options)
17:51:29 *** lobstar has joined #openttd
17:51:32 <xiong> Do you agree to the terms I show in that figure? If so, please post to thread. If not, please say here and I will fix it.
17:51:47 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I think you have to write it on black and white before he understands
17:51:56 <TrueBrain> which colour does he has his IRC client in?
17:52:16 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, you're in a nice gay-ish pink here ;-)
17:52:26 <planetmaker> telekom colour so to say
17:52:34 <TrueBrain> see, there things go wrong
17:52:50 <frosch123> pm and tb have the same colour for me
17:52:54 <TrueBrain> anything new in the 1.1 pipeline?
17:53:04 <frosch123> TrueBrain: load a game
17:53:21 <TrueBrain> frosch123: that worked in 0.3 already
17:53:26 <Eddi|zuHause> what? loading a game was not possible before 1.1?
17:53:50 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, NewObjects, NewNewGRFGUI, play a game with FIRS and ECS and actually understand what goes where...
17:53:58 <frosch123> well, it is the only not-newgrf thing i can come up with
17:54:02 <planetmaker> oh: muchz more water on maps :-)
17:54:08 <frosch123> i won'T mention newgrf stuff towards tb :p
17:54:24 <TrueBrain> at least you know me
17:54:24 <frosch123> TrueBrain: actually you do not have to load game, just to pretend to
17:54:44 <planetmaker> I grew to used to that already :-)
17:54:45 <TrueBrain> well, I was wondering if there was anything exciting in the development pipeline :)
17:55:16 <TrueBrain> bug fixes only give a 1.0.5
17:55:26 <Rubidium> yeah, WT3.1. That's really exciting
17:55:28 <frosch123> there are a lot of due-to-1.1 bugs
17:55:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: well, that in fact is a bit why I am asking about development :D
17:55:56 <frosch123> oh you mean: i ottd dies you do not need to work on it? :p
17:56:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: I hope OpenTTD never dies
17:56:13 <TrueBrain> you have some weird ideas
17:56:17 <Rubidium> but tortoisesvn was interested in it, right?
17:56:18 <planetmaker> xiong, I won't post a pointless 'yes, those are directions' posting. I tell you here and now, that I can live with those definitions, if you need them
17:56:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: more projects are
17:56:44 <TrueBrain> how is the newgrf translation bla going?
17:56:52 <planetmaker> waiting for you ;-)
17:56:56 <xiong> There's a point. I'm sorry if I can't explain it in convincing terms. If you agree, why not say so?
17:57:00 <TrueBrain> I find that hard to believe
17:57:18 <planetmaker> xiong, pretty pointless?
17:57:21 <glx> we still wait for website translations ;)
17:57:24 <xiong> This is not going to be much of a partnership if I must beg you for every concession.
17:57:35 <TrueBrain> glx: figure out how to represent them first
17:57:46 <TrueBrain> glx: I got really sick of the: flags, no not flag, names! No not names, FLAGS!
17:57:50 <frosch123> TrueBrain: we have translatable newgrf names, and descriptions and a translatable newgrf conifiguration window similiar to the ai one
17:57:53 <TrueBrain> really .. ffs .. find a method :)
17:57:54 <Rubidium> hmm... receiving an email titled "onderzoeks vraag". Come on... write correct Dutch, or English as you're sending to to @openttd.org...
17:57:55 <xiong> I'm quite willing to go the distance here. I will work hard, study up, and pay attention. But it's not a one-way street.
17:57:58 <frosch123> though ais are not translatable yet :p
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17:58:14 <planetmaker> xiong, wth? I don't NEED those directions. And I don'T SEE any question. Just agreeing on yes meaning yes is pretty pointless, right?
17:58:28 <planetmaker> And I don't even KNOW where you're heading.
17:58:46 <planetmaker> This whole discussion, quite frankly, is to me - as far as I see - a complete waste of time
17:58:46 <xiong> Agreeing on 'GA' and 'NGA' meaning what they illustrate in that figure is not pointless. It is critical.
17:58:49 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: talk to Yexo & Hirundo about translations of NML; they have a form similar to OpenTTD's strings
17:59:07 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I know they were working on it, that is why I ask how it was going :)
17:59:14 <xiong> You can't see the point of it because you haven't heard the questions. You haven't heard the questions because you won't agree to the terms needed to state them.
17:59:28 <planetmaker> I don't see a single bit where all these 'agree on this and that' is going. And all I see is that all that won't be needed
17:59:43 <xiong> The questions may not even be all that big, in your eyes. In mine, I need clarification.
17:59:56 <frosch123> TrueBrain: planetmaker already has to topics to query translations for nml-based grfs
18:00:04 <planetmaker> Yes. And as long as there's no question: why should I waste my time on pointless 'yes and no and whatever
18:00:16 <frosch123> if you can turn that into a website which integrates with redmine :)
18:00:22 <xiong> I cannot prove anything to you. You will have to take something on faith. I'm a mature, responsible person; I have a good reason for all of this.
18:00:36 <planetmaker> xiong, then go AHEAD
18:00:53 <xiong> I cannot proceed if you are not willing to buy into those terms.
18:01:00 <planetmaker> instead of wasting time by 'can we all please say it's nice'
18:01:11 <TrueBrain> frosch123: redmine .. *shiffers*
18:01:30 <planetmaker> xiong, if you can't live with me telling you here, I can't help you
18:01:37 <xiong> It's not a waste of time. It has been a considerable expense of time to define those terms -- 3 hours so far. I don't want to have to do this over.
18:01:55 <planetmaker> I'll answer in the forums when there's something interesting to say for me. Other than 'yes'
18:01:57 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: how far is it 'operational'?
18:02:14 <xiong> You said you wanted a thread. There is the thread. If you want some other place, that's okay too. But you must participate in it. This is a team effort; I cannot do this alone.
18:02:16 <planetmaker> xiong, then go on! Bloody hell
18:02:23 <planetmaker> I don't want a thread
18:02:24 <Belugas> xiong, since it is your project, i's say that rightnow, you have all that you need. you can now go ahead. the terms have been defined, this is waht you explained.
18:02:29 <planetmaker> Remember: you want signals
18:02:56 <planetmaker> I assumed you were off drawing signals. Well. They're best posted as graphics in the forums for other people to give feedback.
18:03:01 <Hirundo> NML is nearing 0.1.0 which should fully support vehicles and industries
18:03:01 <xiong> I don't know why you're upset, planetmaker. I know why I'm upset. Why is it hard to define terms?
18:03:04 <planetmaker> But... this... is so bloody boring
18:03:07 <Belugas> damned... i should realy do something about this keyboard...
18:03:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: give it up already .. we all did :D
18:03:24 <xiong> Okay, it's boring. Post to thread, saying you agree to these terms, and we can move on.
18:03:32 <xiong> I want this public and clearly defined.
18:03:35 <planetmaker> and I see nothing whatsoever where this will go. I don't see anything what point you try to make
18:03:42 <planetmaker> Nor anything where you're heading
18:04:00 <planetmaker> Now that you've made YOUR definition YOU can always use it. That's sufficient
18:04:06 <xiong> And you cannot see, because I cannot say, because we do not have agreed-upon terms. I've said that already.
18:04:24 <planetmaker> I don't need to agree on 'directions'. As long as I understand you and you me
18:04:24 <xiong> You're angry. What's the point?
18:04:37 <planetmaker> you're wasting my time with this bloody fruitless discussion
18:04:39 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o planetmaker
18:04:43 <xiong> Also, as long as everyone who reads the thread understands.
18:04:57 <planetmaker> they will. But no one will see a point. So far
18:05:17 <xiong> Look, if you don't want to do this, I won't force you. No need to get angry. I can drop this right here.
18:05:33 <planetmaker> xiong, I CANNOT do anything UNLESS I have graphics
18:05:36 <planetmaker> But you're only talking
18:05:49 <planetmaker> instead of drawing. Off to the drawing board
18:06:03 <xiong> You can post to the thread, saying that you agree to those terms. You do not have to do so but until you do, I cannot move forward.
18:06:16 <planetmaker> bad luck for you mate
18:06:23 *** ajmiles has joined #openttd
18:06:23 <xiong> Or, of course, you can say they're unsatisfactory and we can do something else.
18:06:35 <TrueBrain> I am getting very bored reading the same question over and over
18:06:38 <TrueBrain> and reading the same reply over and over
18:07:04 <planetmaker> I won't reply to that posting. As it would be 100% meaningless
18:07:30 <planetmaker> It's a summary of the common directions used by the game. Yeah. So what?
18:07:32 <xiong> It is meaningful when you agree to speak about something using a word. It's extremely meaningful to me -- critical.
18:07:39 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: how do you mean: full support <subset of OpenTTD>
18:07:41 <TrueBrain> why not everything?
18:07:46 <Belugas> xion, advice: go on with your idea, based on what you have established. You don't need approval of planetmaker, nor anyone else.
18:07:47 <planetmaker> I don't jump that hook
18:08:01 <planetmaker> thanks, Belugas :-)
18:08:16 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o planetmaker
18:08:19 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it just needs more time to implement all that
18:08:21 <xiong> Belugas, this is not a case of approval. This is a case of agreement. I don't know how to make that more clear.
18:08:31 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: so difficult?
18:08:38 <TrueBrain> (serious no clue about the work needed for that)
18:08:40 <davis> Allies set mode: -o Axis
18:08:48 <Belugas> i don't know exactly why you need an agreement for.
18:08:48 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it's 8 actionA
18:08:49 <Hirundo> because (apart from action0/varact2 stuff) many features have their own special quirks that need handling, and time is limited
18:08:55 <planetmaker> simplest newgrf imaginable
18:08:56 <Belugas> not planetmaker, nor mine
18:08:56 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: I know _nothing_ about NEwGRF
18:09:14 <xiong> Belugas, Do I have to explain to anyone why it is important to agree on terms before discussing anything?
18:09:16 <planetmaker> well. 2nd simplest. The simplest is only the name w/o function
18:09:21 *** andythenorth_ has joined #openttd
18:09:47 <planetmaker> xiong, you're not discussing
18:09:53 <xiong> I cannot just wave my hands wildly in the air. I need words in order to talk about them.
18:09:56 <Belugas> xiong, the fact that you posted that picture on the forums, on your project, is good enough
18:10:20 <Belugas> there is no need to have an "official" approval
18:10:20 <xiong> Belugas, Do *you* agree to those terms? If so, perhaps you'd like to post to that thread.
18:10:23 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: sorry, I have no clue why I was that lazy, I hate SMS talk ... I meant to say: I see :D
18:10:40 <Belugas> xiong, it is irrelevant that i agree or not.
18:10:52 <xiong> It's not official *except* as far as the bigsig project goes. For bigsig, it is official.
18:10:56 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
18:11:12 <andythenorth_> I can see no north here
18:11:17 <planetmaker> xiong, that posting is the 'dictionary'. Make use of it. But don't wait for anyone going and saying 'oh great'
18:11:25 <Belugas> for bigsig, it is. for openttd, bigsig is just another project
18:11:27 <andythenorth_> I can see no north here
18:11:29 <xiong> It's only relevant if you want to participate. That's up to you.
18:11:30 * planetmaker gives a Southpole to andythenorth_
18:11:35 *** lobstah has joined #openttd
18:11:47 <Belugas> therefor, bigsig should recongnize the terms and gp forawrd with its coures
18:12:17 <xiong> planetmaker, Do you want to do this? If not, fine; we'll just drop it. Either sign up, if you like, or not. The thread will remain. Perhaps someone else will get on, probably not.
18:12:40 <xiong> I will not do this by myself.
18:12:50 <Belugas> xiong, maybe you got the impression that planetmaker, myself or anyone wanted to join the project. not sure anyone even remotely menionned such an interest
18:13:21 <planetmaker> I offered to code the signal graphics, should he produce some. I stand by that, it's trivial
18:13:54 <planetmaker> But I don't need to do any voodoo or whatever social cozy-poozy
18:14:23 <Belugas> haa... ok. i remove my precedent comment
18:14:39 <planetmaker> but so far it's vapourware
18:14:42 <xiong> I'm not asking for anything more than simple agreement to the terms so defined.
18:15:32 <planetmaker> Do you agree that air consists of 77% nitrogen and 22% oxygen and some minor rest? Why should anyone sign for that?
18:15:35 <xiong> I'm not asking you to say that the terms are needed, helpful, useful, or important. Only that we both agree to use these terms unambiguously to refer to underlying concepts.
18:15:52 <planetmaker> I don't need that concept
18:16:08 <xiong> To say that certain track is GA and other track NGA is not a fact; it is a definition.
18:16:11 <Belugas> so it's time to go ahaed for you
18:17:24 <xiong> Thank you, Belugas. I appreciate that. But you are not the person who has indicated some willingness to build these graphics. Are you interested in this? I don't ask for commitment but simply if you have any interest, or even ability. No offense, I simply don't know.
18:17:29 <andythenorth_> 12% chance of paranormal activity in my house tonight
18:18:18 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, for only 500 GBP + expenses I'll try to pinpoint that :-) And remove any paranormal behaviour for an additional 500 GBP
18:18:21 <Belugas> no i'm not interested at all. I just want you to move ahead and start explaining in this thread why the terms are so important. It's just a matter of curiosity
18:18:35 <xiong> At this point, in order to draw graphics, I need to have a better understanding of game mechanics. To get that, I need to ask questions; to ask, I need words.
18:19:24 <Belugas> you now have words :) i just don't know if you will be able to fit those words on the game's mechanics, since you tried to impose a distinction that is not part of that mechanism
18:19:48 <xiong> Since I plan to be working with planetmaker to draw these graphics, it's pretty important that we discuss the same things using the same words. I think that should be obvious. If nobody is willing to build these graphics -- to translate PNG into Grf -- then the effort is futile.
18:20:27 <valhallasw> once you have graphics drawn, there will be enough people capable and willing to translate them into grfs
18:20:38 <xiong> This is a personal shortcoming of mine. I admit it.
18:21:24 <xiong> valhallasw, Do you accept the terms I have shown in that thread? If so, please post.
18:21:46 <valhallasw> what, do I have to sign an NDA?
18:21:58 <xiong> Look, after wasting about 2 hours yesterday on the topic of 'north', I'm simply not willing to discuss this game with anyone who will not agree to some set of terms.
18:22:39 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: yes, in duplo, with a 100 euro bill
18:22:44 <xiong> Literally, 2 hours yesterday, with people going back and forth on the question of 'which way is north'. I won't do that again.
18:23:13 <planetmaker> xiong, just. go. by. your. definition.
18:23:15 <Mortomes> Instead we get 2 hours going back and forth on whether someone can agree with your "terms"
18:23:18 <planetmaker> Take it granted and move on
18:23:23 <Mortomes> What an improvement \o/
18:23:29 <xiong> Today, it has been 4 solid hours on GA/NGA. These are clumsy terms and I don't care for them. But they are planetmaker's choices. I want that on thread.
18:23:53 <andythenorth_> this is nearly as much fun as watching the BROS train wreck :P
18:24:01 <valhallasw> Or, if there is confusion about what a certain term means, coin a new term
18:24:03 <xiong> I do not want to read, even once, that someone has a different opinion.
18:24:16 <valhallasw> then why post on a discussion board?
18:24:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i have never looked in that BROS thread, what's going on there?
18:24:20 <andythenorth_> and slightly surpasses the stupidity of the UK bus set arguments
18:24:26 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: a whole lot of nothing :P
18:24:31 <andythenorth_> 27 pages of bitching
18:24:59 <andythenorth_> it's a microcosm of why British engineering and manufacturing is mostly fucked
18:25:04 <xiong> valhallasw, In order to gain a consensus. If you cannot agree to those terms, we will work on another set.
18:25:37 <valhallasw> Why would I have to agree to /your/ definitions when we communicate?
18:25:37 <andythenorth_> and openttd coop sets indicate why certain european countries knock UK dead on engineering & manufacturing
18:25:39 <xiong> I will spend as much time as needed to settle on terms. I'm not shy, I'm not demanding. I don't push my own set of terms here.
18:25:41 <valhallasw> Communication is a two-way thing.
18:25:42 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: like in The IT Crowd, where he asked "Why didn't it work?" and then the camera zooms in on the sticker "made in GB"?
18:25:56 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: why do you have the wrong colour, anyway?
18:25:59 <xiong> valhallasw, One more time: I did not choose those terms.
18:26:05 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: haha, I was wondering the same :D
18:26:20 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: colour?
18:26:29 <TrueBrain> Konversation can be annoying ...
18:26:43 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, he has a "_"
18:26:45 <Eddi|zuHause> andythenorth_: colours are calculated based on your nickname, and you have a different one than usual
18:26:50 <planetmaker> andythenorth_, you could (again) use the bouncer...
18:26:53 <planetmaker> or identify to it
18:26:59 <andythenorth_> Eddi|zuHause: I stopped using the bouncer
18:27:18 <Eddi|zuHause> trouble is, even if you changed your nick now, you'd keep the wrong colour
18:28:32 <TrueBrain> [20:24] <xiong> I do not want to read, even once, that someone has a different opinion. <- was that a challenge btw?
18:29:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't think he understood how a democracy works :p
18:29:23 <andythenorth_> what democracy?
18:29:42 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: you do know we have no democracy, right?
18:29:49 <TrueBrain> I mean .. I rule .. you obey. Sounds obvious enough :D
18:30:02 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: yes, but you at least have to know what you're missing :p
18:30:36 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: well, you rule, until someone else is crazy enough to become a sysop :p
18:31:05 <TrueBrain> I wonder what happens if I give you guys 10 minutes to spit out every shortcoming of WT3.0 ...
18:31:24 <andythenorth_> it doesn't support FIRS?
18:31:32 <planetmaker> - fails sometimes on some {option}
18:31:42 <Eddi|zuHause> i'd rather spit on the lack of progress in WT 3.1 ;)
18:31:43 <planetmaker> - comments for other translators
18:32:06 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: I rather kick you
18:32:09 <TrueBrain> but you see me complaining? :p
18:32:18 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: {option}?
18:32:39 <planetmaker> I only see time and again some commits like wt3 messed up again on <whatever>
18:32:41 <TrueBrain> Hirundo: why did you guys went for OpenTTD style, and not gettext, like most sane people do? :D Cases again?
18:32:58 <xiong> planetmaker, I don't want to be rude. I'm sorry if you feel that way. I need a solid foundation from which to work. I realize that, with your much greater experience, you see things differently. But we are not going to be able to work together if you cannot condescend to my admitted inexperience. I simply can't telescope up to your level. I appreciate your initial willingness to encourage the project and I'm sorry we can't go on with
18:33:00 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I guess we're in the OpenTTD community, you know ;-)
18:33:04 <TrueBrain> ah, yeah, Rubidium was complaining to me about a plural form being wrong ... most likely something that did not propegate correctly
18:33:12 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i'm generally not complaining. only stating objective facts :p
18:33:20 <Hirundo> ^^ what planetmaker said :)
18:33:39 <planetmaker> xiong, we can. You just need to walk on
18:33:44 <Eddi|zuHause> but as always with people in power, they find it insulting when someone points out the reality :p
18:34:05 <planetmaker> If my word is not enough, though. Sad
18:34:34 <andythenorth_> is there power?
18:34:45 <andythenorth_> I hadn't noticed :o
18:34:49 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone know teamviewer?
18:35:07 <xiong> planetmaker, You don't want to post to thread. That's fine; but we can't work together if that's a problem for you. Okay? No hard feelings.
18:35:12 <Eddi|zuHause> presume i have a connection from a linux computer and a windows computer, and all the colours come out wrong...
18:35:27 <planetmaker> xiong, WHY shall I post there?
18:35:45 <TrueBrain> omg, is this still an issue and an ongoing topic?
18:36:02 * Hirundo politely suggests twitter as nonsense-discussion medium of choice
18:36:05 <xiong> planetmaker, Well, let me try a different tack. Because I asked. Just that, no more. As one human to another, I asked for it.
18:36:28 <xiong> Let's just go our separate ways, as friends.
18:36:40 <Eddi|zuHause> some people just won't take a "yes, you're right" for an answer...
18:37:13 <planetmaker> I won't jump when I see not where it goes
18:37:52 <xiong> It goes directly to 'We agree to talk about these things using these words.'
18:38:28 <TrueBrain> some people just want stuff black and white, written in triple, printed, duplicated, lost, found again, filed, lost again, found back again, and then burried
18:38:31 <TrueBrain> (guess the reference)
18:39:13 <planetmaker> xiong, then get a printout from this channel
18:39:24 <planetmaker> you'll find more than one agreement
18:39:57 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i know that sentence, but i couldn't remember where i heard it
18:40:47 <Eddi|zuHause> ah, that makes sense
18:41:05 <TrueBrain> when the Voguns or what are they called get a request
18:41:10 <valhallasw> xiong: seriously. stop waiting for explicity OKs and start working
18:41:12 <TrueBrain> well, in the movie at least
18:41:23 <Eddi|zuHause> the only occurances of bureucracy i could remember were futurama and asterix...
18:41:37 <TrueBrain> valhallasw: but we have nothing better to do and all we are here for is to give okays to people we don't know!
18:41:46 <valhallasw> xiong: the point of communication is being able to get your point across. If you get stuck defining terms, you will never get the point across.
18:41:51 <valhallasw> TrueBrain: Oh, right. I forgot
18:42:11 <xiong> No, valhallasw. I've explained myself in some detail. I spent 2 hours yesterday trying to settle the question of north. I'll spend 8 hours today on the topic, if I must. But not any more than that.
18:42:31 <valhallasw> Thats 10 hours not spent on actually making/discussing graphics
18:42:32 <xiong> I literally will not discuss the details of track and signalling with anyone who does not agree to some set of terms.
18:43:06 <Mortomes> xiong: So stop discussing it ._.
18:43:08 <xiong> They don't need to be terms of my choosing. But they do need to be some clear, publicly defined set of terms; and I want to see the agreement public as well.
18:43:22 <xiong> Mortomes, Haven't even started, unfortunately.
18:43:38 <planetmaker> that's why no agreement is needed
18:43:44 <valhallasw> What no-one here understands is why you want that public agreement
18:44:00 <Belugas> ho.. yeah.. i had to reboot
18:44:27 <Belugas> as long as music fills my ears
18:44:36 <xiong> It's a contract, valhallasw. You agree to say, 'Yes, I will use these terms.' It's not a big deal but it does lay a foundation -- common ground. It's impossible to have a rational conversation on any topic without common ground.
18:44:42 <Belugas> Led Zep - Going to California
18:44:45 <valhallasw> It *is* a big deal
18:45:21 <xiong> Belugas, Great, you're back. You're the only person who agrees to terms, so I hope you're also willing to discuss the substantive issues.
18:45:25 <planetmaker> xiong, you ask literally people to give consent to some discussion you will define in the future. That won't happen
18:45:38 <Eddi|zuHause> xiong: you miss the sense of scale. if defining the grounds for the conversation takes longer than the conversation itself, you are doing it wrong
18:45:48 <xiong> planetmaker, The meta-issue is over. You win. Have a nice day. Okay?
18:46:02 <planetmaker> ok. You're on ignore. Welcome
18:46:07 <Eddi|zuHause> i so wish i had +o right now
18:46:19 *** DorpsGek sets mode: +o Eddi|zuHause
18:46:25 <valhallasw> You are asking people for their time when asking questions. First demanding them to sign a contract will not exactly persuade them to help you.
18:46:29 <xiong> Belugas, First, I find myself unable to lay NGA track on slopes. Is this a mistake on my part or a hard limitation?
18:46:32 <TrueBrain> (I keep mistyping those letters, dunno what happens)
18:46:32 <Belugas> xiong, no. i'm not willing. See, right now, i'm at work, doign some SQL stuff. I'm a kinda retired dev, who is painfully trying to manage real life (wife kid) with some ottd coding
18:46:41 *** xiong was kicked by Eddi|zuHause (discussion over. thank you for attending.)
18:46:44 <TrueBrain> Belugas: you retired? :D
18:46:58 * planetmaker hugs Eddi|zuHause
18:46:59 <valhallasw> I think Eddi|zuHause may have saved my fingers
18:47:03 *** DorpsGek sets mode: -o Eddi|zuHause
18:47:10 <Belugas> KINDA, TrueBrain, just.. KINDA
18:47:22 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: how does it feel?
18:47:28 * planetmaker hugs also TrueBrain
18:47:38 <Eddi|zuHause> one good deed a day ;)
18:47:42 <TrueBrain> you have no idea how much it took from me to not do that hours ago
18:48:00 <frosch123> TrueBrain: he does a good job at turning down feature requests :p
18:49:02 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: my respect for keeping up with him for so long
18:49:14 <planetmaker> I don't respect myself for that
18:49:15 <TrueBrain> which version of temper control do you have?
18:49:31 <Belugas> yeah, we all know you're a bitch, planetmaker ;)
18:50:02 <Belugas> yeah.. i looked at it... game looks interesting. mmmh... why by me?
18:50:22 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I guess some kind where the exit of the loop was like NOT_REACHED()
18:50:27 <frosch123> second section on that page
18:50:39 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, it was reached :D Just took much much longer than it did for me :)
18:50:47 <TrueBrain> although it did give me one goooooddddd laugh :)
18:50:51 <TrueBrain> I DEMAND YOU COMPLY WITH ME!
18:50:52 <andythenorth_> "Arguing that a certain micromanagement-heavy feature would be "optional" does not justify it."
18:51:00 <andythenorth_> fricking options
18:51:05 <andythenorth_> what do half of them do anyway?
18:51:17 <andythenorth_> every FIRS feature request comes with "but it could be optional"
18:51:36 <andythenorth_> so I have to code, debug and QA a bunch of spaghetti code, instead of picking sensible defaults
18:51:38 <andythenorth_> not going to happen
18:52:00 <planetmaker> go by your rant :-)
18:52:05 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: back to WT3 .. all entries stated by you are in fact a bit known entries. anything new? :D
18:52:05 <planetmaker> options are for > 1.0 ;-)
18:52:27 <andythenorth_> > 1.0 should *remove* options :P
18:52:33 <andythenorth_> options are for finding out what's needed
18:52:59 <andythenorth_> what does "Flat area around industries" do anyway?
18:53:28 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, not out of my head right now. It works quite nicely actually.
18:53:35 <Rubidium> andythenorth_: has Eddi not documented that yet?
18:53:41 <TrueBrain> so in over a year you have found no new things to add to WT3?
18:53:47 <planetmaker> Adding readme.txt to the translatable things IMHO would be next
18:54:16 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: do you have any spin to it?
18:54:24 <planetmaker> Quality work pays
18:54:33 <planetmaker> beware, slippery slime ahead :-P
18:54:50 <Rubidium> TrueBrain, you mean: things to make translateable via WT3?
18:55:12 <TrueBrain> more: what features should a possible WT3.1 contain?
18:55:20 <TrueBrain> (which WT3.0 doesn't have)
18:55:30 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, maybe something like a 'category' feature: show all strings belonging to newgrf_gui
18:55:42 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: yeah, I have that on this (old old) list too :D
18:55:45 <planetmaker> but then... those are already similarily names, thus can be retrieved
18:55:45 <Rubidium> * simpler interface for assigning people to a language
18:55:56 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: read: admin interface
18:56:02 <TrueBrain> it currently has *none* :p
18:56:17 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, bananas needs a proper user management ;-)
18:56:39 <andythenorth_> bananas needs a simple patch to let me go straight to bananas when I login
18:56:43 <TrueBrain> someone else was going to write something for that, long long ago
18:56:53 * andythenorth_ presumes it's simple anyway
18:57:56 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: you don't want to hear the stuff already on FS regarding the website/WT3/bananas, right?
18:58:31 <TrueBrain> in fact, only interested in WT3.1 atm
18:59:11 <planetmaker> right... IMHO the biggest advantage would be newgrf translations. But that's not 3.1
18:59:35 <TrueBrain> well, it partly is :)
19:00:13 <TrueBrain> I find 'schema' in postgres mostly useful btw, even more for such projects
19:00:21 <TrueBrain> avoids endless keys on all tables .. you just put 1 project in 1 schema
19:00:29 <planetmaker> it's quite difficult to get good translations. And it always needs a new newgrf for every string update. Not too cool either
19:00:56 <TrueBrain> I would almost suggest to link it to the content service :D
19:01:11 <TrueBrain> you remember I once wrote it for the client, that it fetches the translations from the web? :)
19:01:34 <planetmaker> but sounds interesting for the newgrf concept
19:01:51 <planetmaker> but still it needs a wt3 part where things are translated
19:02:03 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I made a client patch which loaded all strings from the web, live
19:02:04 <planetmaker> but I don't see this being a small endeavour
19:02:09 <planetmaker> rather a BIG feature
19:02:12 <TrueBrain> so your WT3 translations were directly visible
19:02:22 <TrueBrain> so you could try different translations, and how they fit
19:02:28 <TrueBrain> dreadly slow, of course :D
19:03:42 <TrueBrain> but yeah, having nightly newgrfs because of their translation updates might not be optimal :D
19:04:08 <planetmaker> well. You don't have that (usually) on bananas
19:04:23 <planetmaker> But see, another advantage to newgrf versions: you could use them there
19:04:24 <Eddi|zuHause> i think i broke teamviewer...
19:08:45 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: well, you make ap oint there: we can in theory link those to the BaNaNaS :D Haha :)
19:09:03 <TrueBrain> why are translations part of the newgrf, and not a seperated file (like in OpenTTD)?
19:09:07 <TrueBrain> (seriously asking, not judging)
19:09:35 <planetmaker> as so many things in the newgrf arena
19:09:46 <Rubidium> actually, translations are "part" of OpenTTD as well
19:09:53 <TrueBrain> they are .lng files
19:10:01 <Rubidium> at least a language commit changes the binary
19:10:12 <planetmaker> newgrfs first allowed to (re)define strings. They are embedded
19:10:13 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I forgot how nitpicking you could be :D
19:10:29 <planetmaker> it *would* be sufficient if the newgrf contained an ID which is then read from a translation file
19:10:38 <planetmaker> that'd be newgrf version8 or so ;-)
19:10:42 <planetmaker> another thing for that
19:10:54 <Rubidium> but then each NewGRF will contain of like 50+ files
19:11:02 <Eddi|zuHause> planetmaker: adding features doesn't need grf version 8
19:11:29 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: you can pack them to one, of course
19:11:31 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause, depends. If action4 was re-defined
19:11:42 <planetmaker> something which in this case would then make sense
19:11:42 <TrueBrain> the point of this asking is if you can distribute translations next to the grfs itself, or that it is silly?
19:12:02 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, it doesn't work (easily)
19:12:06 <Eddi|zuHause> TrueBrain: i agree with you. i suggested that two years ago.
19:12:16 <Hirundo> Separate tranlations are already possible using the (flawed) action13
19:12:19 <planetmaker> But it's not silly. Not at all. On the contrary
19:12:45 <Eddi|zuHause> what does action 13 do?
19:12:57 <Hirundo> replace DC00 / D000 grf texts
19:13:27 <planetmaker> so... a newgrf to translate another newgrf. How... nice
19:13:51 <Hirundo> The only problem is that the spec does not include a language ID
19:14:13 <Hirundo> So if the server loads a spanish translation grf, everyone will have to learn spanish
19:14:56 <__ln__> not everyone, only those who don't know it already
19:14:59 * Rubidium proposes translating strings from another NewGRF. Lets call it action13
19:15:03 <TrueBrain> is it fixable in such way you can distribute 2 files, one with active translation, the other with data?
19:15:39 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: is it worth any serious consideration to distirbute translations over the content service? (like one of my patches once did)
19:15:53 <Hirundo> The "fix" for MP (without changing specs) is to have everyone load the proper translation grf as static grf for themselves
19:16:38 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: probably not
19:16:56 <TrueBrain> any additional argumentation?
19:17:56 <Rubidium> storing translations near the binary is non-trivial, storing the translations in the home directory means it only works with one of your binaries
19:18:32 <Rubidium> non-trivial as in: heh, I've installed OpenTTD as root and am not allowed to write there (replace root with Administrator in case of Windows)
19:19:15 <planetmaker> an additional folder in content_download like translations?
19:19:19 <TrueBrain> okay, and the other approach: live stream translations?
19:19:30 <planetmaker> where there the translations can be downloaded like other content?
19:19:49 <planetmaker> maybe automatically ticked when the proper newgrf is selected?
19:19:59 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: content_download mostly is in ~/.openttd, shared along all versions of your OpenTTD
19:20:07 <frosch123> translations are quite version specific
19:20:20 <planetmaker> but files bananas are also uniquely named
19:20:23 <frosch123> do you really want to download the 1.1. translation after updating to ottd 1.1 ?
19:20:27 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: so it fails for OpenTTD itself. might work for NewGRF thou ...
19:20:45 <planetmaker> yes. This was only meant to target newgrfs
19:21:09 <planetmaker> I missed that you expanded the translations in general :-)
19:21:36 <TrueBrain> yeah, I tried to generalise it all; but that fails :D
19:21:43 <TrueBrain> live stream is also silly, requires a constant connection
19:21:55 <TrueBrain> so yeah, lets try to question again with only NewGRFs as target :D
19:22:08 <TrueBrain> guess that is easily enough: new category in BaNaNaS, and some glue in the client
19:22:13 <planetmaker> well. translation files... couldn't they contain a version number they correspond to in their header?
19:22:23 <planetmaker> With OpenTTD that'd be not too difficult, would it?
19:22:39 <planetmaker> and store translations then in a folder corresponding to the version
19:22:45 <TrueBrain> I agree with Rubidium that packing translations with OpenTTD itself is not that hard
19:22:51 <TrueBrain> for NewGRFs it is another story
19:23:27 <TrueBrain> but if you make newgrfs to translate a newgrf (ghehe), and load them optionally, so they can be updatd more often
19:25:10 <TrueBrain> frosch123: back to your questin, I personally wouldn't mind that if I startup 1.1 for the first time and select Dutch, it tells me: I need to download this translation. Continue.
19:25:28 <TrueBrain> but I also see no issue to pack it with OpenTTD
19:25:50 <frosch123> imo packing everything in one package is just easier
19:26:07 <frosch123> splitting makes only sense to save bandwidth, which does not seem to apply
19:26:44 <frosch123> and it's not like a new translation turns up from one day to another either :)
19:27:00 <TrueBrain> while, they do; we just don't distribute those like that :D
19:27:06 <TrueBrain> but mostly, it saves disk-space :p
19:27:34 <TrueBrain> I now I have 100k * N translations, where I only use 1 :D
19:27:53 <TrueBrain> kewl, my latest checkout is r20133
19:27:58 <DorpsGek> TrueBrain: 1.0.4 | Website: *.openttd.org (translator: translator, server list: servers, wiki: wiki, patches & bug-reports: bugs, revision log: vcs, release info: finger) | Don't ask to ask, just ask | English only
19:28:22 <planetmaker> indeed OpenTTD is still quite bandwidth friendly, given a single download
19:28:28 <planetmaker> many games are MUCH bigger
19:28:34 <frosch123> wrt. to newgrfs. we could identify translation-only-static-grfs via action14 and the autoactivate them
19:28:38 <TrueBrain> well, in total OpenTTD can get BIG :D
19:28:44 <frosch123> (hidden from the gui / newgrf settings)
19:28:54 <KouDy> so i am trying FIRS but experiencing one issue... how on earth am i supposed to find where on map is located next part of chain (i am moving clay to paper mill and coal to steel mill) but how i am looking i can't find anything where to deliver next step
19:29:07 <TrueBrain> frosch123: would it be possible to have multplie languages in 1 of such newgrfs?
19:29:12 <frosch123> though i do not know the number-of-file-descriptor thingie of ottd fios stuff
19:29:29 <frosch123> TrueBrain: currently not
19:29:30 <andythenorth_> KouDy: which version of OTTD are you using?
19:29:52 <frosch123> due to flawed action13, and ottd anti-desyncing behaviour :)
19:30:20 <TrueBrain> no clue what you just said, but I kind of stopped reading after 'action' :D
19:30:33 <TrueBrain> sorry, newgrfs really always have been one big mystery to me :)
19:30:43 <frosch123> otoh we could alter action13 incompatibly in grf version 8, or even before as noone uses it anyway
19:31:09 <planetmaker> newobjects were also re-defined ;-)
19:31:33 <TrueBrain> okay, other question: are all newgrfs (of importance) in some kind of VCS, or would there be need for 'import newgrf'?
19:31:51 <TrueBrain> where you upload a whole newgrf, which is handles (what ever) to allow translations?
19:31:53 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, those which are not, it's their own fault
19:31:54 <frosch123> all newgrfs of importance are versioned using hg :)
19:32:05 <KouDy> planetmaker : i tried by my blindness strikes again :D
19:32:25 <frosch123> hmm, no openttd.grf is in svn
19:32:32 <planetmaker> KouDy, select in the minimap to show industries. And then only activate those types visible which suit you
19:32:42 <andythenorth_> KouDy: try the 'show chain' on industry
19:32:42 <planetmaker> frosch123, also in a hg
19:32:46 <frosch123> and i always miss the "," after "hmm, no"
19:32:50 <andythenorth_> then 'link to smallmap' from the chain window
19:33:05 <frosch123> planetmaker: ok, but only recently
19:33:08 <andythenorth_> should it be 'smallmap' or 'minimap' ?
19:33:20 <planetmaker> As long as I'm around. Which is three years
19:33:33 <frosch123> hg only has "trunk"
19:33:36 <TrueBrain> next question: should there be an export to newgrf, or would you expect some other kind of export? And should it be able to auto-commit to (remote) VCSes?
19:33:45 <frosch123> not the "extra" where openttd.grf sources were before
19:33:48 <Belugas> a preview of newgrf would be good
19:33:59 <Belugas> as wellas a preview of a scenario :)
19:34:15 <frosch123> Belugas: we already have scenario preview in 1.1 :)
19:34:19 * planetmaker pulls Belugas out of his corner
19:34:22 <frosch123> just not minimap preview
19:34:38 <TrueBrain> well, what WT3.1 in the perfect world should have, is to put strings in the view they are in the game :p
19:34:46 <Belugas> i shall play da gameuh
19:34:48 <TrueBrain> but that is very unlikely
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19:35:13 <planetmaker> Belugas, infect your son ;-) Then you have a very good excuse
19:35:38 <TrueBrain> export of normal OpenTTD translations, requires .lng export, or only commit like it is now?
19:35:52 <Belugas> my wife does not allow him too much exposure, it's bad for his nerves ;)
19:35:56 <frosch123> Belugas: feel free to code the smallmap preview :) i concluded though that it could hardly share code with the ingame minimap, and thus stopped trying to add it
19:36:18 <Belugas> and you want ME to do it ?
19:36:36 <Belugas> if you did fail, very littel chance i could succeed ;)
19:36:55 <Belugas> even now, with my poor bool performance of this morning ;)
19:37:36 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: how is the need for a 'forum' for a language?
19:37:45 <TrueBrain> and 'remarks per string'
19:38:09 <TrueBrain> and 'shared dictonary of common words'
19:38:20 <Belugas> stupid question i asked, trhis morning, frosch123, you were not "there" yet
19:38:27 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, a dictionary would be quite useful. Even for one-translator-only languages
19:38:57 <planetmaker> the remarks... could be if there are more than one. It could be used to discuss things
19:39:57 <planetmaker> they should allow different versions of the string with author name tag and maybe some additional text. Including date when added
19:40:19 <planetmaker> and an easy button to clear the discussion or at least to mark it obsolete / finished
19:40:26 <TrueBrain> You mean like: remark on string of date <blabla> by <bla>: I dont like it
19:40:52 <TrueBrain> but who is allowed to mark it finished ..
19:41:02 <TrueBrain> if you get in a fight over something, the other always marks it as finished
19:41:23 <Rubidium> but they, and the history stay I'd say
19:41:48 <planetmaker> I see no problem that every translator can do that
19:41:49 <TrueBrain> you say what, sorry Rubidium?
19:42:00 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, keep track of discussions
19:42:09 <Rubidium> also anonymous-ish (has openttd-ldap account, but isn't translator) should be able to comment on strings
19:42:29 <planetmaker> ^ good idea. And I meant to say "keep track of discussions" (mind the "")
19:42:57 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: keep history of strings, including the discussion. Then you can easily see whether such a fight occurs and one might mediate in some manner
19:43:03 <planetmaker> which basically would mean to allow a discussion board for every string
19:43:16 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: would get endless and crowded
19:43:21 <TrueBrain> so I am tempted to go with planetmaker and allow deletion
19:43:25 <TrueBrain> or at least: 'hiding'
19:43:49 <planetmaker> 'solved'. Like 'mark reviewed' now
19:43:54 <planetmaker> might even be the same button
19:44:09 <planetmaker> oh, one non-string specific discussion board :-)
19:44:16 <planetmaker> for general things
19:44:26 <planetmaker> like the dictionary of common translations
19:44:32 <Rubidium> that's "link to forum-thread" :)
19:44:33 <TrueBrain> yeah, so you can put rules on them which you first have to read and reply to before you can translate
19:44:55 <Rubidium> rules for a language probable fit best in the wiki
19:45:01 <planetmaker> Rubidium, but the dict itself would be handy within wt3
19:45:08 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: I was refering to something that happened in here earlier :p
19:45:25 <Rubidium> yeah, but grammar and general style stuff
19:45:34 <TrueBrain> should also be in WT3
19:45:37 <TrueBrain> at least, easy viewable
19:45:45 <TrueBrain> WT3.1 will not only be for OpenTTD
19:46:02 <Rubidium> IMO it's better not to make the translator: a translator tool, forum and wiki
19:46:22 <TrueBrain> a forum suggests you can discuss everything on it
19:46:44 <TrueBrain> but every language should have a single page which contains a few pointers for translators
19:46:59 <planetmaker> hm, ok. just something similar to the code review function of redmine, attachable to each string
19:47:04 <TrueBrain> Like for german: please use ss over ringle-s
19:47:19 <planetmaker> the single page could be in the wiki as well. The existing wiki
19:47:30 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: again, I am not only making something for OpenTTD
19:47:40 <TrueBrain> and it truly is confined to the usage of WT3
19:47:41 <planetmaker> could be for any project ;-)
19:47:53 <planetmaker> a link to general rules :-P
19:47:55 <TrueBrain> url to redmine thingy?
19:48:12 <TrueBrain> [21:46] <planetmaker> hm, ok. just something similar to the code review function of redmine, attachable to each string
19:48:35 <planetmaker> ^ talking of how the string-related discussion could look like
19:50:33 *** Guest2603 is now known as V453000
19:50:52 <planetmaker> hm... that link doesn't work...
19:51:13 <TrueBrain> feel free to tell me where to click
19:52:22 <planetmaker> let me try to find an open code review :-)
19:56:28 <TrueBrain> I am looking at a diff ...
19:56:49 <planetmaker> yes. And there's an overlay window with a remark concerning a certain line
19:57:14 <planetmaker> probably needs java script or whatever
19:57:23 <TrueBrain> more likely a login ;)
19:57:48 <planetmaker> I'll get you a screenshot
19:57:54 <TrueBrain> was about to ask ;)
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20:02:33 <TrueBrain> but yeah, I get the point :)
20:02:47 <planetmaker> it's not an OS window
20:02:58 <planetmaker> but yes, useful :-)
20:03:16 <TrueBrain> anything else I need to know for WT3.1 development, related to OpenTTD and NML (or what was it called)?
20:05:00 <planetmaker> hm... NML is 'just' some means to write newgrfs... with the advantage to accept OpenTTD lng file format :-)
20:05:27 <TrueBrain> but wasn't that the url Hirundo gave me?
20:06:15 <KouDy> andythenorth_ : still here?
20:06:17 <Hirundo> I just gave a link to a translation topic, so you could see NML's lang file format
20:06:37 <KouDy> how to work with FIRS translation?
20:06:42 <TrueBrain> (sorry, my memory goes back like 10 minutes, at most :p)
20:06:51 <KouDy> i'd do some stuff i guess :)
20:06:56 <planetmaker> mine, too. I was searching for what you meant ;-)
20:07:39 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, NML is to grfcodec what C is to assembler ;-)
20:07:43 <TrueBrain> I do see a few issues there
20:08:10 <TrueBrain> most noticable issue is the newlines
20:08:14 <TrueBrain> those really have to be removed
20:08:24 <TrueBrain> {} means newline, no need to add a \n too
20:08:28 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, I just added them so it doesn't break layout
20:08:35 <planetmaker> They must not be in the translation file
20:09:02 <planetmaker> 7F=default. 02=German
20:09:09 <TrueBrain> I don't like numbers
20:09:18 <TrueBrain> can't what ever translated nml to grfs fix that?
20:09:19 <planetmaker> I copied the default language. It's the newgrf number for languages
20:09:39 <planetmaker> Yes, could. For known languages :-)
20:09:48 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: given all languages are known, that should not be hard
20:10:05 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, but new ones will be added. Then that cannot be translated
20:10:15 <planetmaker> And they'll need a new newgrf langID
20:10:22 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: why not? It just needs an update somewhere :)
20:10:35 <TrueBrain> if a new {} command is added, it also needs to be told
20:10:40 <TrueBrain> we fixed that by making strgen export those things
20:10:55 <planetmaker> yes. But that's a change of the language definition specs
20:11:09 <TrueBrain> yes; so it needs to propegate any way :p
20:11:12 <TrueBrain> but okay, I see your point
20:11:12 <planetmaker> while adding another language currently only needs defining the meaning of a number
20:11:33 <TrueBrain> but making a language 9E or what ever doesn't magically works
20:11:39 <TrueBrain> OpenTTD needs to be told which language that is either way
20:11:40 <planetmaker> what can (and at some point probably will) be done is to offer (alternatively) some better readable way
20:11:47 <KouDy> not much of texts... good... i will post it tomorrow through the day i think (depends how bored i will be at work :D )
20:11:49 <TrueBrain> so WT3.1 won't have that language till that time anyway
20:11:57 <planetmaker> TrueBrain, OpenTTD knows it. It knows these numbers
20:12:04 <Rubidium> OpenTTD's language files contain those numbers
20:12:08 <planetmaker> That's where they come from
20:12:17 <TrueBrain> so I don't see the issue here :D
20:12:23 <TrueBrain> for OpenTTD to use a new number, it needs to know it
20:12:29 <TrueBrain> so why not use text there? :)
20:12:41 <planetmaker> Because then every newgrf tool needs an update, too
20:12:52 <TrueBrain> what translates NML to whatever for grfs?
20:13:08 <TrueBrain> would have made sense to me :D
20:13:21 <planetmaker> because newgrfs are different...
20:13:30 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: because nasm doesn't compile C
20:13:36 <KouDy> #define TEXT_CRG_BUILDINGMATERIALS_1UNIT "\UE07C ton of building materials" is line for 1 unit of BM
20:13:48 <TrueBrain> okay ... so strgen just needs to export the codes with language tags
20:13:55 <KouDy> i will need separate lines for 2, 3 and 4
20:14:10 <planetmaker> no, unfortunately, KouDy
20:14:37 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: strgen is unaware of the language number to language name link, until it loads a language file
20:14:49 <TrueBrain> huh? Now I am confused ....
20:14:53 <KouDy> tho guys you have cargos that are not really translatable :)
20:14:57 <TrueBrain> some system has to be able to map this number to an OpenTTD language name
20:14:59 <TrueBrain> which part does that?
20:15:40 <TrueBrain> that simply sucks balls
20:16:19 <planetmaker> if grfs were defined completely new now, things would be done differently ;-)
20:16:33 <TrueBrain> goes for a lot of things :D
20:16:51 <TrueBrain> so it will need some special glue for that
20:17:00 <andythenorth_> KouDy: some of the FIRS cargos are probably US / UK specific :P
20:17:11 <Rubidium> or write a tiny script
20:17:13 <andythenorth_> if you need to check them ask here :)
20:17:27 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: as I said: glue
20:17:53 <KouDy> speaking here... can this IRC server accessed through some website?
20:18:11 <Adambean> anyone use x-chat? i accidentally the menu bar
20:18:26 <TrueBrain> you forgot a verb there :D
20:18:40 <Mortomes> He accidentally a verb
20:19:20 <TrueBrain> I like you Mortomes :D
20:21:36 <TrueBrain> "railvoertuigen" <- lol @ Hirundo :D
20:21:43 <TrueBrain> sorry, sometimes dutch words are just amusing to me :D
20:22:06 <Hirundo> Perhaps I should not have attempted a literal translation :)
20:22:20 <TrueBrain> for this you needs a preset dict, so you can just look it up :)
20:22:47 <TrueBrain> treinwagon, if you want to be over explicit
20:23:01 <Eddi|zuHause> "vehikel" in german is more used like an insult ;)
20:23:15 <Rubidium> doesn't include the engines (locs)
20:23:15 <TrueBrain> and here it is only used by people who think they are more than the rest :D
20:23:36 <TrueBrain> Rubidium: treinstel
20:23:56 <TrueBrain> but either way, I am sure it is already translated 10 ways in the OpenTTD language :D Doesn't matter, it just made me giggle
20:24:00 <TrueBrain> and realise Hirundo is dutch
20:24:18 <Hirundo> 'treinstel' doesn't capture everything either
20:25:13 <TrueBrain> kewl, "rail vehicle" is not used in english translation
20:25:15 <Rubidium> though maybe that wiki has something about it
20:25:16 <Eddi|zuHause> <TrueBrain> and realise Hirundo is dutch <--- these things happen to me fairly often. sometimes repeatedly with the same person :p
20:25:44 <TrueBrain> so the "bug" is in english :D
20:25:52 <Rubidium> TrueBrain: try "Rail Vehicle"
20:26:03 <Hirundo> I guess, the english wasn't written by a native speaker either
20:26:14 <TrueBrain> I said: search for [Rr]ail [Vv]ehicle
20:26:19 <Eddi|zuHause> i have a feeling civ5 lacks some serious depth
20:26:37 <TrueBrain> railvoertuigen in dutch.txt too, so Hirundo did a good job. It still makes me giggle :D
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20:27:00 <TrueBrain> Eddi|zuHause: and yeah, I am sure I already knew Hirundo was dutch, and I will realise it many more times over the next few years :p
20:27:18 <TrueBrain> "monorailrailvoertuigen" <- that is just wrong
20:27:44 <TrueBrain> but okay ... translations always suck balls :D
20:28:08 <TrueBrain> right, collected enough data for one day .. planetmaker: thank you ever so much for all your time and stuff explaining the stuff :D
20:28:12 <Rubidium> "rollend materieel"?
20:28:13 <andythenorth_> KouDy: it's down :(
20:28:14 <TrueBrain> and tnx to the rest for all the info :D
20:31:07 <andythenorth_> tt-foundry should be back tomorrow or Friday
20:31:12 <andythenorth_> we had database corruption
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20:33:57 <Hirundo> Am I correct in seeing that the smoke offsets as returned by CB10 aren't actually applied for anything other than steam?
20:34:39 <Hirundo> HandleLocomotiveSmokeCloud, train_cmd.cpp around line 2000
20:35:47 <planetmaker> No worries, TrueBrain , my pleasure
20:36:08 <planetmaker> But I don't have now to reply to your posting that I agree by some terms, do I?
20:36:30 * TrueBrain closes his browser fast before he hit the submit button ..
20:36:37 <Rubidium> Hirundo, from the specs: "Note, currently only the positioning of steam actually works"
20:36:46 <TrueBrain> that guy still makes me laugh
20:37:08 <Hirundo> Rubidium: Is that TTDP, OTTD or both?
20:37:14 <planetmaker> I'm not sure whether I shall laugh or cry
20:37:29 <TrueBrain> that you consider yourself so important and so "correct" .. that is just amusing
20:37:30 <Rubidium> Hirundo: the specs, and by the looks of our code that includes OpenTTD
20:37:34 <planetmaker> belugas probably is right that it was a kind of clash of cultures
20:37:52 <KouDy> what everything is Farm Supplies?
20:38:02 <KouDy> same for engineering supplies
20:38:04 <planetmaker> KouDy: anything needed to run a farm
20:38:05 <TrueBrain> planetmaker: the way he entered already was insane
20:38:19 <KouDy> well like fertiliser that is in separate category? :)
20:38:24 <TrueBrain> stating that he talked to others and that it was insane we didn't have a convention for it .. like .. say what? :D It only went downhill from there :p
20:38:34 <planetmaker> from fertilizer through screws to tractors and animal food
20:38:42 *** murr5y is now known as murr4y
20:38:47 <Hirundo> "The bug is in the specs, so it's a feature"
20:38:56 <planetmaker> TrueBrain: it was not the first time or day I talked to him
20:39:10 <TrueBrain> he comes here more often? :p
20:39:13 <planetmaker> he was here the last days. But yeah
20:39:15 <TrueBrain> and he survived? :p
20:39:22 <planetmaker> Asking weired questions, not understanding signals at all
20:39:32 <Rubidium> Hirundo: no, we implemented the spec including it's caveats
20:39:41 <TrueBrain> weird people have to exist too :)
20:39:56 <planetmaker> KouDy: similar goes for engineering and manufacturing supplies
20:40:20 <planetmaker> all those things you need to run the business
20:40:32 <andythenorth_> manufacturing supplies is packaging, parts, or tools....e.g. bottles, jars, cans, wrapping, boxes, stickers, machinery etc
20:40:46 <planetmaker> it was once called packaging ;-)
20:40:54 <andythenorth_> there was also parts
20:40:57 <andythenorth_> I put them together :)
20:41:08 <Rubidium> "may contain traces of packing peanuts" :)
20:41:57 <TrueBrain> on what product did we read that the other day ...
20:41:58 <KouDy> it's very tricky to translate...
20:42:07 <TrueBrain> ffs, can't remember ... it was to insane to be true
20:42:10 <TrueBrain> I believe on chicken
20:42:11 <planetmaker> I agree, KouDy :-)
20:42:14 * Rubidium likes the allergy information on the peanut butter: "may contain traces of peanut"
20:42:31 <TrueBrain> yeah, the chicken had: might contain traces of nuts
20:42:42 <TrueBrain> like ... what the fuck do they feed those people operating the machines to make chicken meat?
20:43:05 <Rubidium> they probably slaughter cows there as well
20:43:26 <andythenorth_> KouDy: try translating what it's for, not what it is?
20:43:47 <KouDy> because here word supplies in connection with word farm can mean "things you need for production" (fertiliser, seeds, etc) but also it can mean "thing that you will produce"
20:43:48 <Rubidium> and thus possibly animals with bovine spongiform encephalopathy
20:44:26 <Rubidium> a.k.a. mad cow disease, so the cows are nuts
20:44:29 <andythenorth_> KouDy: if read literally, English could do same with "Farm Supplies" :P
20:44:53 <KouDy> meaning is what you need for production
20:44:59 <andythenorth_> let me look up some alternatives, you can try them
20:45:25 <KouDy> second one (what you will produce is easy)
20:46:08 <andythenorth_> provisions / stores / stocks / necessities / components / inputs / parts / deliveries
20:46:21 <Belugas> woooooo... and it makes me wonder
20:46:26 <Belugas> woooooo... and it makes me wonder
20:46:29 <KouDy> well i am going to rename Engineering Supplies to Components or Parts :)
20:46:45 <Terkhen> yeah, I was very tempted to translate them as "stuff" :)
20:46:48 <andythenorth_> would that cover fuel, explosives etc? :)
20:46:54 <andythenorth_> stuff is probably ok
20:47:10 <Belugas> And my spirit is crying for leaving
20:47:10 <KouDy> stuff? that's even worse for translation :)
20:47:18 <KouDy> in combination with engineering
20:47:28 <Belugas> and the VOices of those who stand looking
20:47:34 <Terkhen> "Suministros de Ingeniería" makes cargo widgets ridiculously long
20:47:44 * andythenorth_ wonders if the levee will break
20:48:28 <planetmaker> [22:47] <Belugas> And my spirit is crying for leaving <-- you better keep your spirit ;-)
20:48:29 <andythenorth_> thesaurus says 'materials'
20:48:35 <planetmaker> (sorry, today is nitpicking day :-P )
20:49:01 * Belugas checks on Stairway to Heaven lyrics
20:49:55 <andythenorth_> gear, implements, devices, doohickeys, paraphernalia, gizmos
20:50:18 <Belugas> #There's a feeling I get
20:50:26 <Belugas> #When I look to the West
20:50:39 <Belugas> #And my spirit is crying
20:51:01 <Belugas> no, really.. what an incredible song
20:51:02 <KouDy> that here would mean ... hmmm like for engineering raw materials (iron ore)
20:51:30 <KouDy> i am currently using word necessities
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20:53:25 <andythenorth_> and also cellulose-based plastics
20:53:34 <andythenorth_> like cellophane, rayon, etc
20:53:46 <andythenorth_> it's hemp, sisal, flax etc
20:53:48 <planetmaker> KouDy: it helps, if you get a recent nightly, start a firs game and look at the cargo chains
20:54:12 <planetmaker> then you get a view what industries produce and accept
20:54:33 <KouDy> nice term for translation :)
20:55:17 <planetmaker> I'd like an ice cream with a whip of mixed farms?
20:57:08 <bryjen> or do you prefer your farms shaken, not stirred?
20:58:10 <KouDy> should be imho renamed in english to Smelting Works
20:58:10 <planetmaker> a smith may work there
20:58:28 <andythenorth_> it might get changed
20:58:35 <andythenorth_> I don't think it works in gameplay
20:58:43 <andythenorth_> it's a recent addition and has some...problems
21:00:03 <KouDy> i don't know... place where you put iron ore and wood "together" is smelting works or smelter, forge is working with product of smelter...
21:00:08 <KouDy> tho i am not really sure
21:00:44 <andythenorth_> KouDy: in early USA settlement, forge & smelter were same
21:00:46 <andythenorth_> but not in Europe
21:00:53 <peter1138> Are you talking about OpenTTD or Minecraft here? :p
21:00:56 <andythenorth_> anyway, it's bad in game
21:02:28 <Eddi|zuHause> the thing with the euro tunnel is weird...
21:03:52 <Eddi|zuHause> they once said: the company responsible for letting trains through the tunnel set the requirements. one of this requirement was a train length twice of what usual trains in europe are, so only eurostar would have suitible trains for crossing the tunnel
21:03:53 <dihedral> lol - reading the backlog of this xiong person is fun
21:04:38 <KouDy> #define TEXT_IND_BAKERY "Grain Mill"
21:04:46 <frosch123> hmm, do regular trains also drive 30 km/h in there?
21:04:48 <KouDy> bakery is place using product of grain mill :)
21:06:13 <andythenorth_> bakery is being changed to grain mill
21:06:26 <andythenorth_> but the defines aren't changed yet because that screws with translations :o
21:06:43 * planetmaker hugs andythenorth_
21:06:53 * andythenorth_ badly wants to refactor :P
21:10:52 <Eddi|zuHause> btw. this technique is common. when publicly offering contracts, you can't just say "i want company XYZ to get it". but you can talk with company XYZ beforehand, and write certain details in the contract that only this company would be able to fulfill
21:12:29 <Belugas> ho.. a first frmo a long time
21:12:40 * Belugas waves good by to all of ya
21:12:53 <Belugas> mmmh... really need to sleep
21:16:51 <dihedral> looks like planetmaker has a huge fan :-P
21:16:57 <dihedral> but then i am only on page 6 of 10
21:17:13 <planetmaker> oh, no fan anymore ;-)
21:17:20 <planetmaker> I fell from his good graces ;-)
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21:20:08 <Eddi|zuHause> i still don't understand what he actually wanted...
21:23:26 <Eddi|zuHause> anyone ever tried to map thee newgrf-string-replacement for "generic strings" to openttd StringIDs?
21:24:22 <dihedral> <planetmaker> I fell from his good graces ;-) <- hold it - i have not read up so far
21:34:14 <dihedral> well - took you guys long enough to get rid of the guy
21:37:30 <planetmaker> it was not my intention to, but well
21:37:48 <dihedral> i was surprised he was in the channel as long as he was
21:38:01 <dihedral> sometimes it does take that too
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22:17:30 <planetmaker> good night Terkhen
23:16:56 <Yexo> seriously, what was with xiong tonight?
23:17:00 <Yexo> yes, I'm just now reading the backlog
23:18:17 <SmatZ> Hua Xiong (? – 191) was a military general under the tyrannical warlord Dong Zhuo during the late Eastern Han Dynasty and Three Kingdoms era of China.
23:20:09 <glx> I still don't understand why he needs to define terms for just drawing signals
23:20:30 <Yexo> that's what I'm still wondering about
23:20:49 <Yexo> unfortunatly that discussion was interwined with TrueBrain asking something about WT3.1
23:21:11 <glx> the discussion was just silly
23:28:36 <SmatZ> the quality of those which are still visible is disputable...
23:29:04 <Yexo> 3 of his posts are in the spam bin
23:29:07 <SmatZ> "I am sorry to say that has not wrong" "Correct！I must agree,"
23:29:45 <Yexo> "I think I encountered the same problem and you, up to now have not been solved, I do not know how to do", "I have to say looks very good ..." and "Ditto here~！. I support your point of view 。"
23:30:17 <Yexo> I have to say his non-deleted posts are not much better
23:31:49 <SmatZ> maybe he uses an automatic chinese-english translator
23:32:12 <Yexo> doesn't look that way judging from irc
23:36:34 <SmatZ> normal person can't type such sequences of words and punctuation
23:43:45 <Yexo> TrueBrain: my main wish for wt3.1 is for it to support multiple projects properly (or multiple branches of one project). Given that itcan already commit to svn it's probably easy to adapt that to mercurial
23:44:41 <Yexo> all other features like a forum/remakrs page per language or even remakrs per string are all nice to have but very low prioerity imo
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continue to next day ⏵
