IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-08
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05:04:26 <Eddi|zuHause> soo... apparently MB "promises" to do a "NewStations" before christmas...
05:20:50 <Rubidium> what? Has DNF been released already?
05:30:05 <Eddi|zuHause> no, he said DBSet release is out of the question...
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07:43:49 <Wolf01> gah, I spent 10 hours to teach basic of electronics to a boy
07:44:32 <Wolf01> and I think he is not sure about the knowledge he has
07:45:10 <Wolf01> next time I'll use OTTD to show him the logic gates
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09:06:18 <Rubidium> Wolf01: isn't basic electronic: put iron rods into wall socket and lick it to show it tickles?
09:08:14 <Wolf01> I usually do it with 9V batteries
09:08:22 <planetmaker> ^ that's what I did as kid ;-)
09:10:01 <Wolf01> gah... I've one week to write down a MSAccess walktrough
09:10:10 <Wolf01> I'm already tired after 2 pages
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10:27:32 <dihedral> anybody in here got some interesting comments / remarks / ideas with regards to the bot network thingy?
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10:34:28 <planetmaker> in what respect, dihedral ? :-)
10:34:37 <planetmaker> Did much change since we last tested?
10:36:17 <dihedral> ideas what could be included, etc.
10:36:33 <dihedral> packet structure (in case someone wants to look at the source that is)
10:36:59 <dihedral> ideas what someone would expect would be possible with such a bot network
10:39:46 <planetmaker> dihedral: I'd keep it KISS. And the network protocol seems to do the job and is extensible - as far as my mediocre network knowledge in that area tells me
10:39:51 <planetmaker> Gotta trust you there :-)
10:40:42 * dihedral slaps planetmaker for using an annoying abbreviation
10:41:12 <Noldo> keep it Keep It Simple Stupid?
10:41:35 <planetmaker> I'll shut up. On this issue then.
10:42:08 <planetmaker> sorry for trying to be helpful
10:42:38 <planetmaker> Noldo: yeah... fail :-)
10:44:37 <dihedral> planetmaker, you want to shutup because i previsouly on another occasion told you i hate that abbreviation?
10:44:55 <dihedral> you want to appologize for wanting to help willingly using something you know annoys me?
10:56:27 <planetmaker> In any case I'd not over-complicate things. A clean basic version now is worth more than a Jack of all trades somewhen. Later
10:57:31 <Rubidium> says the person who calls me Rubi... :)
10:59:39 <dihedral> well, if it annoys you, i wont ;-)
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11:02:06 <planetmaker> hm... I'm still in doubt you don't have a highlight on that, Rubi(dium) ;-)
11:02:36 <dihedral> hehe - he probably turned all highlights off :-P
11:03:50 <planetmaker> or highlight = highlight(t, person, channel, x) ;-)
11:05:06 <Wolf01> just make an auto slap on highlight script
11:05:21 <dihedral> perhaps he has a highlight on certain parts of the code?
11:05:46 <dihedral> PACKET_SERVER_JOIN <- perhaps something like that :-P
11:07:19 * planetmaker does. But not on that part ;-)
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14:36:19 <Belugas> cool... theyr are building a new office on the other side of the road. now and then, they are blowing up some rocks
14:36:27 <Belugas> the walls are shaking
14:36:31 <Belugas> good for concentration :S
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17:23:21 <andythenorth_> shall we make the game?
17:23:37 <andythenorth_> or I could do some work :P
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17:33:34 <Ammler> andythenorth_: still fun with openttd?
17:33:52 <andythenorth_> I'm playing a game of openttd and it is fun
17:33:59 <andythenorth_> I haven't played a game for ages
17:34:05 <andythenorth_> keep seeing ponies though :P
17:34:51 <davis> I think he's playing a weird pedophiles version of the game
17:35:02 <davis> transporting kids into basements etc.
17:35:24 <andythenorth_> yeah or we could stop with the slander :P
17:35:33 * andythenorth_ has sense of humour fail
17:36:00 <davis> [19:34] * andythenorth_ has sense of humour fail
17:36:33 <b_jonas> maybe it's a graphics set themed before industrial revolution, so all trains are horse pulled instead of steam engine
17:37:15 <Lakie> Rubidium, on the wiki it says property 16 is linked to sprite preview space, is this stilll the case or should I just leave it a fixed space?
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17:44:53 <b_jonas> somehow I don't like the signal graphics in the stable newgrf. they're not easily visible enough. and sometimes they are covered by the rail fences so I have to turn full detail off, or they're covered by the overhead wire pillars so I have to turn those off
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20906 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt danish.txt swedish.txt):
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 26 changes by zyx
17:45:48 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by Zuu
17:48:52 <Alberth> you should be able to use a NewGRF with different signal graphics
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17:50:59 <b_jonas> Alberth: but is there one? I'm not good in graphics, so I don't think I want to draw one.
17:54:35 <b_jonas> do you guys usually build tracks so the forward direction track is on the same side, say always on the right, or do you build them at random?
17:55:19 <b_jonas> I make trains drive on the right, and get confused when I have to build them the other way because geography makes that more efficient.
17:55:35 <Alberth> not sure what 'forward direction' is, tbh
17:56:11 <Alberth> I never pay attention to those details, but perhaps it is better if I did :)
17:56:44 <b_jonas> Alberth: it's like when cars always drive on the right side of the road
17:57:07 <b_jonas> I presume your train tracks are one way, for that's usually the most efficient way
17:58:06 <Alberth> mostly I put down two next to each other, but I don't connect everything with each other, which makes the direction not so important
17:59:03 <Alberth> anyway, I always lay tracks so that trains can go in every direction they may want to go, so I always have a puzzle to connect tracks to each other.
17:59:16 <Alberth> and I don't plan that either :)
18:01:51 * andythenorth_ plants signals to left on days that are divisible by two resulting in an integer, and otherwise on the right
18:02:00 * andythenorth_ is being silly and should have a beer
18:02:05 <andythenorth_> and stop making unfunny jokes
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18:02:21 * andythenorth_ writes some python
18:03:31 <Alberth> I did enough of that today already :)
18:03:57 <andythenorth_> I am rewriting code I wrote before I knew how to write code better :|
18:04:40 <Alberth> I have been doing that the past 1.5 weeks or so :)
18:11:40 <Rubidium> Lakie: "window->"height = TILE_PIXELS + max(object heights) * TILE_HEIGHT + 2 * OBJECT_MARGIN;
18:12:45 <Lakie> Ok, so it uses the largest object height of all objects currently loaded?
18:14:10 <Rubidium> but that might be as trivial in TTDP as it's in OTTD
18:14:40 <Lakie> Working maximum object height might take a while, but otherwise it wouldn't be too bad
18:16:37 <Lakie> Also, that bug report yesterday I filed, you can use that for callback 15c also
18:16:46 * Lakie forgot he had that in the grf at the time
18:20:47 <planetmaker> [19:44] <b_jonas> somehow I don't like the signal graphics in the stable newgrf. they're not easily visible enough. and sometimes they are covered by the rail fences so I have to turn full detail off, or they're covered by the overhead wire pillars so I have to turn those off <-- are you using version > 0.3?
18:21:30 <planetmaker> also good evening everyone :-)
18:21:41 <Alberth> good evening planetmaker
18:22:25 <b_jonas> planetmaker: no, I'm using opengfx-0.2.4
18:22:38 <planetmaker> then you should update
18:22:51 <planetmaker> you'll get other, bigger (better?) signals then
18:23:29 <b_jonas> ah, thanks. for some reason I thought this was still the newest stable version, even if it's old
18:23:44 <b_jonas> I'll upgrade. can I upgrade during a game or will that cause problems?
18:24:19 <b_jonas> hmm, wait, I do have 0.3.1 downloaded. let me see what I'm actually using
18:24:45 <planetmaker> base sets can be upgraded anytime and don't influence games
18:24:55 <planetmaker> but you can only change them from the main menu
18:26:38 <planetmaker> andythenorth_: something's I've been pondering about:
18:26:52 <planetmaker> there's a sand and gravel pit. But it produces sand and stones
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18:27:34 <andythenorth_> but then it sounds strange delivering gravel around the place
18:27:43 <andythenorth_> it's a contradiction I have yet to resolve :D
18:28:07 <andythenorth_> I don't really care, but the decision of what to name stone seems hard to pin down
18:28:19 <b_jonas> yep, it's only 0.2.4 I'm running
18:29:02 <planetmaker> it pays to use also the newest base set :-)
18:29:27 <planetmaker> Doesn't it complain about missing sprites for you?
18:29:40 <Alberth> 'stone' seems wider in concept
18:29:42 <planetmaker> OpenTTD got a few new ones
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18:29:55 <Alberth> planetmaker: does 'stable' complain?
18:29:57 <planetmaker> Alberth: yes. I find 'stone' the nicer cargo, too
18:30:14 <planetmaker> But... from a gravel pit? Not a ... whatever stone quarry?
18:30:31 <planetmaker> Alberth: I *thought*. But I might be wrong
18:30:47 <planetmaker> didn't check that recently and forgot
18:31:02 <Alberth> gravel is a sub-class of stone, isn't it?
18:31:20 <Alberth> class Gravel(Stone): pass :p
18:32:03 <Alberth> hmm, perhaps 'rocks' instead?
18:32:09 <planetmaker> My question was also more about whether the industry name should be changed slightly
18:32:33 <andythenorth_> I'm open to suggestions
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18:32:42 <andythenorth_> gravel quarry doesn't quite fit the graphics
18:32:49 <b_jonas> I've installed opengfx 0.3.1 now, thanks
18:33:04 <andythenorth_> but if I also draw a hill quarry....would there be two industry types?
18:33:08 <andythenorth_> Rubidium: stuff
18:33:10 <Rubidium> or even mineral(oid)s
18:33:15 <b_jonas> planetmaker: it never complained about missing sprites
18:33:35 <planetmaker> ok :-) It would then latest with OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta1 ;-)
18:33:57 <planetmaker> But you're save with OpenGFX 0.3.1
18:34:07 <nicfer> I know a trick in single player for building 'fast' (wasting the least amount of in-game days)
18:34:11 <Rubidium> planetmaker: or... 0.2.4 already had enough sprites for 1.0.x
18:34:14 <b_jonas> I'm running openttd 1.0.4
18:34:26 <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes :-) I didn't dispute that :-)
18:34:41 <planetmaker> I just don't quite recall whether any sprites were backported
18:34:52 <b_jonas> I see the effect immediately: the icon of the land query tool has changed
18:35:06 <planetmaker> and the load icon
18:35:08 <b_jonas> btw, why doesn't the land area query dialog box disappear automatically?
18:35:47 <nicfer> 1. pause - 2. prepare the tool you need - 3a. unpause 3b. hold click 3c. pause again 4. drag the tool while paused
18:36:22 <nicfer> 3a to 3c needs to be done as quick as you can
18:36:37 <Alberth> nicfer: open the cheat window, enable build while paused :p
18:37:24 <planetmaker> where's the fun, if trains are not seen moving and houses being animated etc pp?
18:37:38 <Alberth> but I never experienced lack of days while playing
18:37:40 <nicfer> this is the hard way to do that trick
18:37:40 <planetmaker> time... is a funny concept in OpenTTD anyway
18:37:54 <planetmaker> at least years are
18:38:09 <b_jonas> I use that in original ttd for the build on water cheat (dynamite on ship depots)
18:38:26 <planetmaker> If there was a daylength, I'd probably stretch the passing of time by about 4 - 16
18:39:07 <planetmaker> b_jonas: no cheat needed for that... you can do that in OpenTTD, too. Just build canals around that thing before
18:39:17 <planetmaker> And then bulldoze the pieces you want to build upon
18:39:43 <planetmaker> just make sure no 'real' water remains adjacent
18:40:16 <planetmaker> could even be considered a bug actually... now that I mention it here :-)
18:40:34 <b_jonas> canals around? how would that work?
18:40:43 <planetmaker> though I prefer not to change that
18:40:48 <planetmaker> b_jonas: just build them on water
18:41:00 <b_jonas> does that even change the water?
18:41:08 <planetmaker> you don't see that
18:41:12 <b_jonas> it does, but not the apperiance
18:41:15 <planetmaker> but it removes the 'flooding' capability
18:41:37 <b_jonas> still, when I remove the ship depot, doesn't it turn to sea instead of bare land?
18:41:58 <planetmaker> but ... why ship depots?
18:42:07 <b_jonas> if it doesn't, then you can still cheat by building fast without needing the canals
18:42:12 <b_jonas> that's how the cheat in ttd works too
18:42:26 <b_jonas> you build ship depots for they're cheap to build on sea,
18:42:33 <planetmaker> ah. you mean to save money?
18:42:39 <b_jonas> then remove them so they turn to bare land and quickly raise the land
18:42:43 <planetmaker> ok, my method costs you ;-)
18:42:49 <planetmaker> I don't care about money
18:42:52 <b_jonas> raising water costs a lot, but raising land doesn't
18:43:02 <planetmaker> except when playing on our stable server. There TF costs are insane ;-)
18:43:02 <b_jonas> planetmaker: I do care at the beginning of the game when I don't have much yet
18:43:18 <planetmaker> yes, sure. But that's 10 ingame years at most or so
18:43:31 <b_jonas> that depends on the difficulty settings
18:43:55 <b_jonas> and in openttd it seems to me that ship depots turn to water immediately
18:43:59 <planetmaker> well. not that much
18:44:03 <b_jonas> so what's this cheat with canals you mention?
18:44:23 <planetmaker> You can build on sea level
18:44:25 <b_jonas> just build canals so a sea-level land or track or building doesn't get flooded?
18:45:29 <planetmaker> 'cheat' might also be wrong. You don't really gain any advantage
18:45:33 <b_jonas> I don't think that helps too much: if I want to build on sea level I can already build dams from raised land, and there's usually plenty of space for that in sea
18:46:48 <b_jonas> I mention for completeness that you can also use docks apart from ship depots for this cheat, but that there's no way I know to cheat the cost of drying the squares that are diagonally half water
18:53:08 <b_jonas> something's wrong with my railway design here, for sometimes trains are going to the wrong way and back
18:53:40 <planetmaker> elrail vs. normal? wrong signal?
18:54:22 <b_jonas> it's all monorail, and I don't know the cause yet, still debugging
18:55:02 <b_jonas> maybe they're going to a depot that's close but from where they can't come back
18:56:29 <planetmaker> lost. have to turn in a station?
18:56:34 <planetmaker> they need a direct path
18:57:21 <b_jonas> there's a fork for two stations and I think they go to the route with the wrong station because that's where there's a depot, and once they're in that part of the fork they can't go back
18:57:35 <b_jonas> I'll try removing depots
18:58:03 <b_jonas> I sometimes add lots of depots because I think they can't hurt, but apparently it's not so easy
18:58:14 <b_jonas> (even when I'm not limited to 256 depots)
19:00:06 <b_jonas> what's the best way to place depots?
19:00:07 <planetmaker> add explicit depot orders. Then you know where they'll service
19:00:29 <planetmaker> 'best' highly depends
19:00:39 <b_jonas> explicit depot orders... hmm, that might make sense
19:00:53 <b_jonas> but that's not too different from having very few depots I guess
19:01:44 <Alberth> I always build tracks to let trains go in any direction they want
19:01:53 <planetmaker> because you know exactly when. And they won't visit another anytime
19:02:53 <planetmaker> usually it also makes sense to have them start with high reliability immediately after or before a station
19:05:31 <b_jonas> it might also be wrong signal placement why they're going to the wrong direction though
19:06:13 <planetmaker> that's the usual cause ;-)
19:08:37 <b_jonas> if I have a fork where a train can go to two paths, can it be better to use a path signal before the fork than one-way block signals after the fork?
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19:09:19 <b_jonas> I guess I'll have to buy out my competitor again
19:09:24 <b_jonas> that might count as cheating
19:09:43 <b_jonas> at least it's a lot of work to remove all their stuff I inherit
19:20:36 <b_jonas> all airports look the same. I wish they could at least be oriented like in the L-game
19:25:01 <Rubidium> the game of the L-word?
19:25:16 <planetmaker> also... airports. Most things can already modded there using newgrf?
19:25:37 <Rubidium> don't know whether Yexo is already that far in trunk
19:26:28 <planetmaker> At least it's not problem to make the tiles somewhat random and varied
19:26:31 <Yexo> IIRC you can already code rotated airports in a newgrf
19:26:33 <planetmaker> and that was the statement :-)
19:26:47 <Yexo> you can even leave out some tiles if you want (the corners in the international for example)
19:26:56 <Yexo> but so far nobody has done that yet
19:27:01 <planetmaker> actually even the buildings ;-)
19:27:38 <Yexo> and multiple (or random) layouts for every airport is also already possible
19:28:11 <planetmaker> as long as the statemachine remains, right?
19:28:50 <planetmaker> b_jonas: in any case I always recommend the airportsplus :-)
19:28:58 <planetmaker> it's not yet much, but a bit :-)
19:29:25 <b_jonas> planetmaker: is that one I can add during an existing game?
19:29:26 <planetmaker> and they look nicer
19:32:19 <planetmaker> hm... might work. But it's not really a recommended thing
19:32:26 <planetmaker> at least you cannot remove them again
19:32:36 <Yexo> and even removing should mostly work fine
19:32:49 <Yexo> you might get very ugly airports if you remove it though
19:33:04 <Yexo> and that can't be repaired again
19:33:21 <planetmaker> Yexo: don't tell people that removing newgrf is fine ;-)
19:33:32 <planetmaker> I want to forbid it ;-)
19:33:47 <Yexo> I won't in the general case, but here I took special care so it should work :)
19:34:04 <b_jonas> does the main openttd distro have some graphics in it?
19:34:30 <b_jonas> I mean, if it works with the openttd graphics without the opengrf, then it has to
19:34:47 <b_jonas> but I haven't tried that it actually works like that, only read about it
19:34:49 <planetmaker> it has openttd.grf - which adds those which TTD has not but OpenTTD needs
19:36:33 <planetmaker> Yexo: I certainly don't doubt that _you_ know very well when it works with what problems
19:37:01 <planetmaker> but the details will get lost when word is passed on ;-)
19:37:11 <Yexo> is that one I can add during an existing game? <- question was about _one specific grf_, answer was in the same way
19:37:35 <Yexo> but agreed, I shouldn't say that :)
19:38:35 <b_jonas> but is adding newgrf always safe?
19:40:38 <planetmaker> it often works, but... there's a lot which can go wrong there, too. Especially if newgrf authors want to do it smart
19:45:21 <Ammler> planetmaker: s/smart/"smart"/
19:47:36 <nicfer> two magic lamps at minetown
19:49:02 <b_jonas> nicfer: wrong channel, but nice
19:51:05 <Alberth> Ammler: how are the town grfs doing? is NML behaving itself?
19:51:56 <b_jonas> my money can't overflow just because I have a few 1e9 dollars, can it?
19:52:53 <DorpsGek> Alberth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
19:53:01 <DorpsGek> Alberth: 9223372036854775808
19:53:22 <Alberth> b_jonas: ^ is more than a few 1e9 :)
19:53:31 <b_jonas> Alberth: but what's the unit?
19:54:12 <Alberth> hmm, good point, not sure
19:54:48 <Yexo> doesn't matter though, it won't overflow even if you reach that amount of money
19:55:53 <Ammler> Alberth: ask me next month again ;-)
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20:32:43 <sauceror> does anyone know how to remove the destructive behavior behind the companies?
20:33:06 <sauceror> i don't like how they close down after being unserviced for a few months. like half of the companies in this one game I'm playing simultaneously shut down
20:33:19 <sauceror> there are goods which are literally impossible to deliver
20:33:42 <Rubidium> companies? or do you mean industries?
20:35:39 <Rubidium> are you playing with industry NewGRFs?
20:35:41 <Wolf01> use ECS and set the right parameters
20:35:49 <sauceror> some ECS ones, yeah.
20:36:00 <sauceror> the basic and construction vectors
20:36:39 <Rubidium> then you need to set the appropriate NewGRF settings
20:39:07 <sauceror> eh... are these on the ECS site? I don't remember this very well
20:39:40 <Rubidium> don't know; I don't like the way ECS looks so I'm not using it at all
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21:01:12 <Belugas> night all and good weekend
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21:48:45 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20907 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4156-ish]: callback 15C's string didn't actually get drawn
21:49:15 <Rubidium> good night as well... yay sleepy time :)
21:53:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20908 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4156]: assertion when the buy menu graphics callback accessed a variable that needs a tile index
21:53:59 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20909 /trunk/src/ (object_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Fix [FS#4137]: don't see coasts as water for object construction
21:56:33 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20910 /trunk/src/disaster_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4155]: helicopters fired a bit too late
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23:19:55 <TruePikachu> avdg: What is up w/ your connection???
23:23:27 <avdg> wireless is stable /me thinks
23:25:15 <GhostlyDeath> I have trains on hold stopped in their depots waiting for a subsidary
23:25:19 <GhostlyDeath> TruePikachu: what is your uptime?
23:26:16 <Eddi|zuHause> s/uptime/epenis/
23:26:53 <GhostlyDeath> 19:28:08 up 14 days, 20:56, 7 users, load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.08
23:28:11 <GhostlyDeath> My new system has an uptime of 19:27:33 up 11 days, 22:39, 9 users, load average: 0.13, 0.06, 0.01
23:28:14 <GhostlyDeath> and it's 11 days old!
23:28:45 <SmatZ> 01:28:06 up 110 days, 8:07, 1 user, load average: 0.19, 0.18, 0.08
23:29:18 <GhostlyDeath> But on this system, I happened to have upgraded the kernel
23:29:37 <GhostlyDeath> SmatZ: Hope you got a UPS
23:30:07 <GhostlyDeath> finally an oil subsidary
23:30:37 <SmatZ> actually, it's not my computer, but one in school
23:31:32 <GhostlyDeath> My UPS should last about 6-10 hours
23:31:39 <GhostlyDeath> before the battery has nothing left
23:32:18 <GhostlyDeath> Trennton contains one too many Ns
23:33:22 <GhostlyDeath> Two towns are right next to each other
23:33:34 <GhostlyDeath> wouldn't be surprised it they absorb and merge
23:35:22 <GhostlyDeath> You guys should add some more graphs
23:35:36 <GhostlyDeath> such as combined industry production rates for each cargo type
23:35:58 <GhostlyDeath> such as all the wood made during a year from every forest
23:42:57 *** trebuchet has joined #openttd
23:53:52 *** valhallasw has joined #openttd
23:56:00 <TruePikachu> GhostlyDeath RE Oil: Uhhh...be careful, and make sure to make deliveries
continue to next day ⏵