IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-10-08
        
        
        
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05:04:26  <Eddi|zuHause> soo... apparently MB "promises" to do a "NewStations" before christmas...
 
05:20:50  <Rubidium> what? Has DNF been released already?
 
05:30:05  <Eddi|zuHause> no, he said DBSet release is out of the question...
 
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07:43:49  <Wolf01> gah, I spent 10 hours to teach basic of electronics to a boy
 
07:44:32  <Wolf01> and I think he is not sure about the knowledge he has
 
07:45:10  <Wolf01> next time I'll use OTTD to show him the logic gates
 
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09:06:18  <Rubidium> Wolf01: isn't basic electronic: put iron rods into wall socket and lick it to show it tickles?
 
09:08:14  <Wolf01> I usually do it with 9V batteries
 
09:08:22  <planetmaker> ^ that's what I did as kid ;-)
 
09:10:01  <Wolf01> gah... I've one week to write down a MSAccess walktrough
 
09:10:10  <Wolf01> I'm already tired after 2 pages
 
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10:27:32  <dihedral> anybody in here got some interesting comments / remarks / ideas with regards to the bot network thingy?
 
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10:34:28  <planetmaker> in what respect, dihedral ? :-)
 
10:34:37  <planetmaker> Did much change since we last tested?
 
10:36:17  <dihedral> ideas what could be included, etc.
 
10:36:33  <dihedral> packet structure (in case someone wants to look at the source that is)
 
10:36:59  <dihedral> ideas what someone would expect would be possible with such a bot network
 
10:39:46  <planetmaker> dihedral: I'd keep it KISS. And the network protocol seems to do the job and is extensible - as far as my mediocre network knowledge in that area tells me
 
10:39:51  <planetmaker> Gotta trust you there :-)
 
10:40:42  * dihedral slaps planetmaker for using an annoying abbreviation
 
10:41:12  <Noldo> keep it Keep It Simple Stupid?
 
10:41:35  <planetmaker> I'll shut up. On this issue then.
 
10:42:08  <planetmaker> sorry for trying to be helpful
 
10:42:38  <planetmaker> Noldo: yeah... fail :-)
 
10:44:37  <dihedral> planetmaker, you want to shutup because i previsouly on another occasion told you i hate that abbreviation?
 
10:44:55  <dihedral> you want to appologize for wanting to help willingly using something you know annoys me?
 
10:56:27  <planetmaker> In any case I'd not over-complicate things. A clean basic version now is worth more than a Jack of all trades somewhen. Later
 
10:57:31  <Rubidium> says the person who calls me Rubi... :)
 
10:59:39  <dihedral> well, if it annoys you, i wont ;-)
 
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11:02:06  <planetmaker> hm... I'm still in doubt you don't have a highlight on that, Rubi(dium) ;-)
 
11:02:36  <dihedral> hehe - he probably turned all highlights off :-P
 
11:03:50  <planetmaker> or highlight = highlight(t, person, channel, x) ;-)
 
11:05:06  <Wolf01> just make an auto slap on highlight script
 
11:05:21  <dihedral> perhaps he has a highlight on certain parts of the code?
 
11:05:46  <dihedral> PACKET_SERVER_JOIN <- perhaps something like that :-P
 
11:07:19  * planetmaker does. But not on that part ;-)
 
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14:36:19  <Belugas> cool... theyr are building a new office on the other side of the road.  now and then, they are blowing up some rocks
 
14:36:27  <Belugas> the walls are shaking
 
14:36:31  <Belugas> good for concentration :S
 
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17:23:21  <andythenorth_> shall we make the game?
 
17:23:37  <andythenorth_> or I could do some work :P
 
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17:33:34  <Ammler> andythenorth_: still fun with openttd?
 
17:33:52  <andythenorth_> I'm playing a game of openttd and it is fun
 
17:33:59  <andythenorth_> I haven't played a game for ages
 
17:34:05  <andythenorth_> keep seeing ponies though :P
 
17:34:51  <davis> I think he's playing a weird pedophiles version of the game
 
17:35:02  <davis> transporting kids into basements etc.
 
17:35:24  <andythenorth_> yeah or we could stop with the slander :P
 
17:35:33  * andythenorth_ has sense of humour fail
 
17:36:00  <davis> [19:34] * andythenorth_ has sense of humour fail
 
17:36:33  <b_jonas> maybe it's a graphics set themed before industrial revolution, so all trains are horse pulled instead of steam engine
 
17:37:15  <Lakie> Rubidium, on the wiki it says property 16 is linked to sprite preview space, is this stilll the case or should I just leave it a fixed space?
 
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17:44:53  <b_jonas> somehow I don't like the signal graphics in the stable newgrf. they're not easily visible enough. and sometimes they are covered by the rail fences so I have to turn full detail off, or they're covered by the overhead wire pillars so I have to turn those off
 
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20906 /trunk/src/lang/ (belarusian.txt danish.txt swedish.txt):
 
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
 
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: belarusian - 2 changes by KorneySan
 
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: danish - 26 changes by zyx
 
17:45:48  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: swedish - 2 changes by Zuu
 
17:48:52  <Alberth> you should be able to use a NewGRF with different signal graphics
 
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17:50:59  <b_jonas> Alberth: but is there one? I'm not good in graphics, so I don't think I want to draw one.
 
17:54:35  <b_jonas> do you guys usually build tracks so the forward direction track is on the same side, say always on the right, or do you build them at random?
 
17:55:19  <b_jonas> I make trains drive on the right, and get confused when I have to build them the other way because geography makes that more efficient.
 
17:55:35  <Alberth> not sure what 'forward direction' is, tbh
 
17:56:11  <Alberth> I never pay attention to those details, but perhaps it is better if I did :)
 
17:56:44  <b_jonas> Alberth: it's like when cars always drive on the right side of the road
 
17:57:07  <b_jonas> I presume your train tracks are one way, for that's usually the most efficient way
 
17:58:06  <Alberth> mostly I put down two next to each other, but I don't connect everything with each other, which makes the direction not so important
 
17:59:03  <Alberth> anyway, I always lay tracks so that trains can go in every direction they may want to go, so I always have a puzzle to connect tracks to each other.
 
17:59:16  <Alberth> and I don't plan that either :)
 
18:01:51  * andythenorth_ plants signals to left on days that are divisible by two resulting in an integer, and otherwise on the right
 
18:02:00  * andythenorth_ is being silly and should have a beer
 
18:02:05  <andythenorth_> and stop making unfunny jokes
 
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18:02:21  * andythenorth_ writes some python
 
18:03:31  <Alberth> I did enough of that today already :)
 
18:03:57  <andythenorth_> I am rewriting code I wrote before I knew how to write code better :|
 
18:04:40  <Alberth> I have been doing that the past 1.5 weeks or so :)
 
18:11:40  <Rubidium> Lakie: "window->"height = TILE_PIXELS + max(object heights) * TILE_HEIGHT + 2 * OBJECT_MARGIN;
 
18:12:45  <Lakie> Ok, so it uses the largest object height of all objects currently loaded?
 
18:14:10  <Rubidium> but that might be as trivial in TTDP as it's in OTTD
 
18:14:40  <Lakie> Working maximum object height might take a while, but otherwise it wouldn't be too bad
 
18:16:37  <Lakie> Also, that bug report yesterday I filed, you can use that for callback 15c also
 
18:16:46  * Lakie forgot he had that in the grf at the time
 
18:20:47  <planetmaker> [19:44]	<b_jonas>	somehow I don't like the signal graphics in the stable newgrf. they're not easily visible enough. and sometimes they are covered by the rail fences so I have to turn full detail off, or they're covered by the overhead wire pillars so I have to turn those off <-- are you using version > 0.3?
 
18:21:30  <planetmaker> also good evening everyone :-)
 
18:21:41  <Alberth> good evening planetmaker
 
18:22:25  <b_jonas> planetmaker: no, I'm using opengfx-0.2.4
 
18:22:38  <planetmaker> then you should update
 
18:22:51  <planetmaker> you'll get other, bigger (better?) signals then
 
18:23:29  <b_jonas> ah, thanks. for some reason I thought this was still the newest stable version, even if it's old
 
18:23:44  <b_jonas> I'll upgrade. can I upgrade during a game or will that cause problems?
 
18:24:19  <b_jonas> hmm, wait, I do have 0.3.1 downloaded. let me see what I'm actually using
 
18:24:45  <planetmaker> base sets can be upgraded anytime and don't influence games
 
18:24:55  <planetmaker> but you can only change them from the main menu
 
18:26:38  <planetmaker> andythenorth_: something's I've been pondering about:
 
18:26:52  <planetmaker> there's a sand and gravel pit. But it produces sand and stones
 
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18:27:34  <andythenorth_> but then it sounds strange delivering gravel around the place
 
18:27:43  <andythenorth_> it's a contradiction I have yet to resolve :D
 
18:28:07  <andythenorth_> I don't really care, but the decision of what to name stone seems hard to pin down
 
18:28:19  <b_jonas> yep, it's only 0.2.4 I'm running
 
18:29:02  <planetmaker> it pays to use also the newest base set :-)
 
18:29:27  <planetmaker> Doesn't it complain about missing sprites for you?
 
18:29:40  <Alberth> 'stone' seems wider in concept
 
18:29:42  <planetmaker> OpenTTD got a few new ones
 
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18:29:55  <Alberth> planetmaker: does 'stable' complain?
 
18:29:57  <planetmaker> Alberth: yes. I find 'stone' the nicer cargo, too
 
18:30:14  <planetmaker> But... from a gravel pit? Not a ... whatever stone quarry?
 
18:30:31  <planetmaker> Alberth: I *thought*. But I might be wrong
 
18:30:47  <planetmaker> didn't check that recently and forgot
 
18:31:02  <Alberth> gravel is a sub-class of stone, isn't it?
 
18:31:20  <Alberth> class Gravel(Stone): pass    :p
 
18:32:03  <Alberth> hmm, perhaps 'rocks' instead?
 
18:32:09  <planetmaker> My question was also more about whether the industry name should be changed slightly
 
18:32:33  <andythenorth_> I'm open to suggestions
 
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18:32:42  <andythenorth_> gravel quarry doesn't quite fit the graphics
 
18:32:49  <b_jonas> I've installed opengfx 0.3.1 now, thanks
 
18:33:04  <andythenorth_> but if I also draw a hill quarry....would there be two industry types?
 
18:33:08  <andythenorth_> Rubidium: stuff
 
18:33:10  <Rubidium> or even mineral(oid)s
 
18:33:15  <b_jonas> planetmaker: it never complained about missing sprites
 
18:33:35  <planetmaker> ok :-) It would then latest with OpenTTD 1.1.0-beta1 ;-)
 
18:33:57  <planetmaker> But you're save with OpenGFX 0.3.1
 
18:34:07  <nicfer> I know a trick in single player for building 'fast' (wasting the least amount of in-game days)
 
18:34:11  <Rubidium> planetmaker: or... 0.2.4 already had enough sprites for 1.0.x
 
18:34:14  <b_jonas> I'm running openttd 1.0.4
 
18:34:26  <planetmaker> Rubidium: yes :-) I didn't dispute that :-)
 
18:34:41  <planetmaker> I just don't quite recall whether any sprites were backported
 
18:34:52  <b_jonas> I see the effect immediately: the icon of the land query tool has changed
 
18:35:06  <planetmaker> and the load icon
 
18:35:08  <b_jonas> btw, why doesn't the land area query dialog box disappear automatically?
 
18:35:47  <nicfer> 1. pause - 2. prepare the tool you need - 3a. unpause 3b. hold click 3c. pause again 4. drag the tool while paused
 
18:36:22  <nicfer> 3a to 3c needs to be done as quick as you can
 
18:36:37  <Alberth> nicfer: open the cheat window, enable build while paused :p
 
18:37:24  <planetmaker> where's the fun, if trains are not seen moving and houses being animated etc pp?
 
18:37:38  <Alberth> but I never experienced lack of days while playing
 
18:37:40  <nicfer> this is the hard way to do that trick
 
18:37:40  <planetmaker> time... is a funny concept in OpenTTD anyway
 
18:37:54  <planetmaker> at least years are
 
18:38:09  <b_jonas> I use that in original ttd for the build on water cheat (dynamite on ship depots)
 
18:38:26  <planetmaker> If there was a daylength, I'd probably stretch the passing of time by about 4 - 16
 
18:39:07  <planetmaker> b_jonas: no cheat needed for that... you can do that in OpenTTD, too. Just build canals around that thing before
 
18:39:17  <planetmaker> And then bulldoze the pieces you want to build upon
 
18:39:43  <planetmaker> just make sure no 'real' water remains adjacent
 
18:40:16  <planetmaker> could even be considered a bug actually... now that I mention it here :-)
 
18:40:34  <b_jonas> canals around? how would that work?
 
18:40:43  <planetmaker> though I prefer not to change that
 
18:40:48  <planetmaker> b_jonas: just build them on water
 
18:41:00  <b_jonas> does that even change the water?
 
18:41:08  <planetmaker> you don't see that
 
18:41:12  <b_jonas> it does, but not the apperiance
 
18:41:15  <planetmaker> but it removes the 'flooding' capability
 
18:41:37  <b_jonas> still, when I remove the ship depot, doesn't it turn to sea instead of bare land?
 
18:41:58  <planetmaker> but ... why ship depots?
 
18:42:07  <b_jonas> if it doesn't, then you can still cheat by building fast without needing the canals
 
18:42:12  <b_jonas> that's how the cheat in ttd works too
 
18:42:26  <b_jonas> you build ship depots for they're cheap to build on sea,
 
18:42:33  <planetmaker> ah. you mean to save money?
 
18:42:39  <b_jonas> then remove them so they turn to bare land and quickly raise the land
 
18:42:43  <planetmaker> ok, my method costs you ;-)
 
18:42:49  <planetmaker> I don't care about money
 
18:42:52  <b_jonas> raising water costs a lot, but raising land doesn't
 
18:43:02  <planetmaker> except when playing on our stable server. There TF costs are insane ;-)
 
18:43:02  <b_jonas> planetmaker: I do care at the beginning of the game when I don't have much yet
 
18:43:18  <planetmaker> yes, sure. But that's 10 ingame years at most or so
 
18:43:31  <b_jonas> that depends on the difficulty settings
 
18:43:55  <b_jonas> and in openttd it seems to me that ship depots turn to water immediately
 
18:43:59  <planetmaker> well. not that much
 
18:44:03  <b_jonas> so what's this cheat with canals you mention?
 
18:44:23  <planetmaker> You can build on sea level
 
18:44:25  <b_jonas> just build canals so a sea-level land or track or building doesn't get flooded?
 
18:45:29  <planetmaker> 'cheat' might also be wrong. You don't really gain any advantage
 
18:45:33  <b_jonas> I don't think that helps too much: if I want to build on sea level I can already build dams from raised land, and there's usually plenty of space for that in sea
 
18:46:48  <b_jonas> I mention for completeness that you can also use docks apart from ship depots for this cheat, but that there's no way I know to cheat the cost of drying the squares that are diagonally half water
 
18:53:08  <b_jonas> something's wrong with my railway design here, for sometimes trains are going to the wrong way and back
 
18:53:40  <planetmaker> elrail vs. normal? wrong signal?
 
18:54:22  <b_jonas> it's all monorail, and I don't know the cause yet, still debugging
 
18:55:02  <b_jonas> maybe they're going to a depot that's close but from where they can't come back
 
18:56:29  <planetmaker> lost. have to turn in a station?
 
18:56:34  <planetmaker> they need a direct path
 
18:57:21  <b_jonas> there's a fork for two stations and I think they go to the route with the wrong station because that's where there's a depot, and once they're in that part of the fork they can't go back
 
18:57:35  <b_jonas> I'll try removing depots
 
18:58:03  <b_jonas> I sometimes add lots of depots because I think they can't hurt, but apparently it's not so easy
 
18:58:14  <b_jonas> (even when I'm not limited to 256 depots)
 
19:00:06  <b_jonas> what's the best way to place depots?
 
19:00:07  <planetmaker> add explicit depot orders. Then you know where they'll service
 
19:00:29  <planetmaker> 'best' highly depends
 
19:00:39  <b_jonas> explicit depot orders... hmm, that might make sense
 
19:00:53  <b_jonas> but that's not too different from having very few depots I guess
 
19:01:44  <Alberth> I always build tracks to let trains go in any direction they want
 
19:01:53  <planetmaker> because you know exactly when. And they won't visit another anytime
 
19:02:53  <planetmaker> usually it also makes sense to have them start with high reliability immediately after or before a station
 
19:05:31  <b_jonas> it might also be wrong signal placement why they're going to the wrong direction though
 
19:06:13  <planetmaker> that's the usual cause ;-)
 
19:08:37  <b_jonas> if I have a fork where a train can go to two paths, can it be better to use a path signal before the fork than one-way block signals after the fork?
 
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19:09:19  <b_jonas> I guess I'll have to buy out my competitor again
 
19:09:24  <b_jonas> that might count as cheating
 
19:09:43  <b_jonas> at least it's a lot of work to remove all their stuff I inherit
 
19:20:36  <b_jonas> all airports look the same. I wish they could at least be oriented like in the L-game
 
19:25:01  <Rubidium> the game of the L-word?
 
19:25:16  <planetmaker> also... airports. Most things can already modded there using newgrf?
 
19:25:37  <Rubidium> don't know whether Yexo is already that far in trunk
 
19:26:28  <planetmaker> At least it's not problem to make the tiles somewhat random and varied
 
19:26:31  <Yexo> IIRC you can already code rotated airports in a newgrf
 
19:26:33  <planetmaker> and that was the statement :-)
 
19:26:47  <Yexo> you can even leave out some tiles if you want (the corners in the international for example)
 
19:26:56  <Yexo> but so far nobody has done that yet
 
19:27:01  <planetmaker> actually even the buildings ;-)
 
19:27:38  <Yexo> and multiple (or random) layouts for every airport is also already possible
 
19:28:11  <planetmaker> as long as the statemachine remains, right?
 
19:28:50  <planetmaker> b_jonas: in any case I always recommend the airportsplus :-)
 
19:28:58  <planetmaker> it's not yet much, but a bit :-)
 
19:29:25  <b_jonas> planetmaker: is that one I can add during an existing game?
 
19:29:26  <planetmaker> and they look nicer
 
19:32:19  <planetmaker> hm... might work. But it's not really a recommended thing
 
19:32:26  <planetmaker> at least you cannot remove them again
 
19:32:36  <Yexo> and even removing should mostly work fine
 
19:32:49  <Yexo> you might get very ugly airports if you remove it though
 
19:33:04  <Yexo> and that can't be repaired again
 
19:33:21  <planetmaker> Yexo: don't tell people that removing newgrf is fine ;-)
 
19:33:32  <planetmaker> I want to forbid it ;-)
 
19:33:47  <Yexo> I won't in the general case, but here I took special care so it should work :)
 
19:34:04  <b_jonas> does the main openttd distro have some graphics in it?
 
19:34:30  <b_jonas> I mean, if it works with the openttd graphics without the opengrf, then it has to
 
19:34:47  <b_jonas> but I haven't tried that it actually works like that, only read about it
 
19:34:49  <planetmaker> it has openttd.grf - which adds those which TTD has not but OpenTTD needs
 
19:36:33  <planetmaker> Yexo: I certainly don't doubt that _you_ know very well when it works with what problems
 
19:37:01  <planetmaker> but the details will get lost when word is passed on ;-)
 
19:37:11  <Yexo> is that one I can add during an existing game? <- question was about _one specific grf_, answer was in the same way
 
19:37:35  <Yexo> but agreed, I shouldn't say that :)
 
19:38:35  <b_jonas> but is adding newgrf always safe?
 
19:40:38  <planetmaker> it often works, but... there's a lot which can go wrong there, too. Especially if newgrf authors want to do it smart
 
19:45:21  <Ammler> planetmaker: s/smart/"smart"/
 
19:47:36  <nicfer> two magic lamps at minetown
 
19:49:02  <b_jonas> nicfer: wrong channel, but nice
 
19:51:05  <Alberth> Ammler: how are the town grfs doing?  is NML behaving itself?
 
19:51:56  <b_jonas> my money can't overflow just because I have a few 1e9 dollars, can it?
 
19:52:53  <DorpsGek> Alberth: Error: Something in there wasn't a valid number.
 
19:53:01  <DorpsGek> Alberth: 9223372036854775808
 
19:53:22  <Alberth> b_jonas: ^ is more than a few 1e9 :)
 
19:53:31  <b_jonas> Alberth: but what's the unit?
 
19:54:12  <Alberth> hmm, good point, not sure
 
19:54:48  <Yexo> doesn't matter though, it won't overflow even if you reach that amount of money
 
19:55:53  <Ammler> Alberth: ask me next month again ;-)
 
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20:32:43  <sauceror> does anyone know how to remove the destructive behavior behind the companies?
 
20:33:06  <sauceror> i don't like how they close down after being unserviced for a few months. like half of the companies in this one game I'm playing simultaneously shut down
 
20:33:19  <sauceror> there are goods which are literally impossible to deliver
 
20:33:42  <Rubidium> companies? or do you mean industries?
 
20:35:39  <Rubidium> are you playing with industry NewGRFs?
 
20:35:41  <Wolf01> use ECS and set the right parameters
 
20:35:49  <sauceror> some ECS ones, yeah.
 
20:36:00  <sauceror> the basic and construction vectors
 
20:36:39  <Rubidium> then you need to set the appropriate NewGRF settings
 
20:39:07  <sauceror> eh... are these on the ECS site? I don't remember this very well
 
20:39:40  <Rubidium> don't know; I don't like the way ECS looks so I'm not using it at all
 
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21:01:12  <Belugas> night all and good weekend
 
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21:48:45  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20907 /trunk/src/object_gui.cpp: -Fix [FS#4156-ish]: callback 15C's string didn't actually get drawn
 
21:49:15  <Rubidium> good night as well... yay sleepy time :)
 
21:53:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20908 /trunk/src/newgrf_object.cpp: -Fix [FS#4156]: assertion when the buy menu graphics callback accessed a variable that needs a tile index
 
21:53:59  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20909 /trunk/src/ (object_cmd.cpp water_map.h): -Fix [FS#4137]: don't see coasts as water for object construction
 
21:56:33  <CIA-2> OpenTTD: rubidium * r20910 /trunk/src/disaster_cmd.cpp: -Fix [FS#4155]: helicopters fired a bit too late
 
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23:19:55  <TruePikachu> avdg: What is up w/ your connection???
 
23:23:27  <avdg> wireless is stable /me thinks
 
23:25:15  <GhostlyDeath> I have trains on hold stopped in their depots waiting for a subsidary
 
23:25:19  <GhostlyDeath> TruePikachu: what is your uptime?
 
23:26:16  <Eddi|zuHause> s/uptime/epenis/
 
23:26:53  <GhostlyDeath>  19:28:08 up 14 days, 20:56,  7 users,  load average: 0.03, 0.07, 0.08
 
23:28:11  <GhostlyDeath> My new system has an uptime of  19:27:33 up 11 days, 22:39,  9 users,  load average: 0.13, 0.06, 0.01
 
23:28:14  <GhostlyDeath> and it's 11 days old!
 
23:28:45  <SmatZ>  01:28:06 up 110 days,  8:07,  1 user,  load average: 0.19, 0.18, 0.08
 
23:29:18  <GhostlyDeath> But on this system, I happened to have upgraded the kernel
 
23:29:37  <GhostlyDeath> SmatZ: Hope you got a UPS
 
23:30:07  <GhostlyDeath> finally an oil subsidary
 
23:30:37  <SmatZ> actually, it's not my computer, but one in school
 
23:31:32  <GhostlyDeath> My UPS should last about 6-10 hours
 
23:31:39  <GhostlyDeath> before the battery has nothing left
 
23:32:18  <GhostlyDeath> Trennton contains one too many Ns
 
23:33:22  <GhostlyDeath> Two towns are right next to each other
 
23:33:34  <GhostlyDeath> wouldn't be surprised it they absorb and merge
 
23:35:22  <GhostlyDeath> You guys should add some more graphs
 
23:35:36  <GhostlyDeath> such as combined industry production rates for each cargo type
 
23:35:58  <GhostlyDeath> such as all the wood made during a year from every forest
 
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23:56:00  <TruePikachu> GhostlyDeath RE Oil: Uhhh...be careful, and make sure to make deliveries
 
continue to next day ⏵