IRC logs for #openttd on OFTC at 2010-09-30
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07:30:25 <dihedral> Ammler: how far are you with your server?
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10:54:59 <Ammler> [09:30] <dihedral> Ammler: how far are you with your server? <-- do you have another proposal? :-)
10:58:34 <Ammler> I still prefer XenServer, but I don't get ride of this Netzwork issue.
11:04:14 <dihedral> did you follow the documents on their wiki page acurately?
11:08:01 <Rubidium> wikis are outdated by definition...
11:09:18 <dihedral> esp, if it documents for a version released a few months ago ^^
11:09:57 <dihedral> Ammler, i was merely wondering how much time you were going to spend setting up the server and paying 50 eur / month
11:12:03 <Eddi|zuHause> why is it called "patch"?
11:12:26 <Rubidium> because it documents the pre 0.7 behaviour
11:12:33 <dihedral> because the wiki pages did not get renamed at the same time 'patch' got renamed to 'setting'
11:13:10 <Rubidium> the 0.7+ behaviour is in the "Advanced Settings" pages
11:13:27 <Ammler> just revert it back :-
11:13:51 <Rubidium> reverting that change is equally useless
11:14:21 <Ammler> it would at least tell Luigi, that his work was useless
11:14:37 <Rubidium> it's not like it's definitely wrong or something, just a bit pointless given it's talking about stuff almost two years old
11:14:51 <Rubidium> on the other hand... he might be using Lenny
11:14:51 <Eddi|zuHause> remove the page alltogether
11:15:09 <peter1138> redirect it to the new one
11:16:29 <Rubidium> copying the English page is quite useless, just translate the page when you're at it
11:17:07 <dihedral> i'll use wget for the german translation :-D
11:17:43 <Eddi|zuHause> please, push it through babelfish/google translate/etc. :p
11:18:38 <Ammler> the whole translating is crap, but people don't agree :-)
11:19:16 <planetmaker> Ammler: there's no real alternative present, is there? :-)
11:19:22 * planetmaker also waves 'hello'
11:19:49 <planetmaker> translating a manual makes somewhat sense on a page-by-page basis
11:19:59 <planetmaker> and that's what this wiki is basically
11:20:02 <Ammler> I tried to tell that the german guy, but he prefers to translate too :-)
11:20:13 <planetmaker> 'that' german guy? ;-)
11:20:35 <Rubidium> IMO a proper (comprehensive) docbook manual should be written in English and that should be translated and distributed
11:20:49 <planetmaker> Problem is keeping it up to date
11:20:50 <Rubidium> then you can at least track progress and bundle it with OpenTTD itself
11:21:01 <planetmaker> Rubidium: wt4 :-)
11:21:08 <Rubidium> the wiki just has a gazillion things that are utterly useless to be translated
11:21:26 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: let webtranslator handle the documentation as well?
11:21:30 <planetmaker> Having the tutorial translated is most helpful.
11:21:33 <Ammler> it is easier to keep a German doc up2date than to translate English doc to German, imo
11:21:43 <planetmaker> And some other help pages on settings, newgrfs and alike
11:22:01 <Ammler> advantage is that someone who don't understand English well, could contribute
11:22:04 <planetmaker> Ammler: there's no real difference... is there?
11:22:16 <planetmaker> A translation doesn't mean word-by-word
11:22:26 <planetmaker> It means to transport the issues, the content
11:22:37 <Ammler> that is how the translations on the wiki are done so far...
11:22:42 <planetmaker> that's the difference between google translate and a translation
11:22:52 <planetmaker> And with this understanding of translation it makes sense
11:23:26 <planetmaker> It then also makes sense with that kind of understanding to translate the things chapter-wise - like now done on the wiki
11:23:49 <Rubidium> still, providing a structure in the English doc that all docs should follow seems like a good strategy; then you know what parts are and aren't available even though you can fill in the details differently
11:23:53 <planetmaker> arguably, many 'translators' are afraid to deviate too much from the original
11:23:57 <Rubidium> it also allows tracking changes someone
11:24:08 <planetmaker> my argument actually ;-)
11:24:16 <Ammler> it also forces the localization to use same stucture, which might not fit every language/region.
11:24:36 <Rubidium> e.g. if in the English document a section or paragraph gets amended it probably should in the translations as well, or it should at least be checked
11:24:37 <planetmaker> Ammler: the logical structure of the manual need not differe between languages. It's a manual.
11:25:11 <Ammler> then the translation should be done by WT and not with wiki
11:25:27 <planetmaker> would make sense, yes
11:25:43 <planetmaker> though the easy access as on the wiki is a nice thing and might be important
11:25:53 <Ammler> I have so far not seen one wiki with good translations
11:25:55 <Rubidium> WT3 has somewhat easy access
11:26:11 <Ammler> most wikis abandon such trials quite fast
11:26:14 <planetmaker> well... and vice versa, Rubidium ?
11:26:47 <Rubidium> although the main problem is that there's no "suggestions" in WT3, and... there is no English version of the manual yet
11:26:49 <Ammler> We will see in a year or so :-)
11:26:51 <planetmaker> ideal: translation via WT3 on a paragraph? sub-section? basis and seamless integration in the wiki
11:27:07 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the tutorial?
11:27:29 <dihedral> "Wenn Sie Spiels sind neu auf dem unsere "Erste Schritte" werden Artikel zeigen Ihnen" <- hehe
11:27:40 <planetmaker> Which - when once defined - could then be amended by newgrf config, adv. settings and ki config
11:27:50 <Rubidium> planetmaker: that'll be only a very small, initial, part
11:28:00 <planetmaker> yes. But it'd be a start
11:28:20 <planetmaker> actually one start would already be to put up the readme on wt3 - by sections
11:28:52 <Ammler> hehe, what language does the openttd logo represent?
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11:35:53 <Terkhen> he's been traslating a lot of pages every day since june/july; it's no surprise that he's translating useless ones too
11:37:03 <Rubidium> ah well, it's nice that the Spanish now have a native wiki page explaining how to compile OpenTTD < 0.5.0 on Mac OS X
11:38:10 <Rubidium> which... cough cough... won't work on the newer Mac OS X versions anyhow due to the lack of 32 bits blitter
11:38:17 <__ln__> is that more useless in Spanish than it is in English?
11:39:05 <Terkhen> I don't a page like that can become more useless
11:39:42 <__ln__> if it is completely useless even in English, then why isn't it deleted from the wiki...
11:40:54 <Ammler> __ln__: it is still valid for openttd < 0.5
11:41:39 <Ammler> it is just stupid to invest time for such pages now
11:42:25 <Ammler> The wiki page could be useful, if you like make a "retro game" :-)
11:42:45 <Rubidium> Ammler: not for Mac OS X, unless you use "retro" hardware as well
11:43:29 <Ammler> better to add a "notice" block on top which tells taht, instead deleting...
11:43:43 <Rubidium> even though the information might still be useful for a very small share of the users, I doubt it's the thing that you should translate that as one of the first things
11:45:06 <Ammler> it is hard to control (unpaid) contributions :-)
11:45:35 <Rubidium> yup, I don't even want to try to
11:45:47 <Rubidium> I just get occasionally rid of spam and empty pages
11:46:12 <dihedral> is there some type of 'forge.openttd.org' ?
11:46:46 <Rubidium> dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:47:21 <dihedral> i am asking for openttd not openttdcoop
11:47:42 <Rubidium> ever looked at what is *at* dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:48:26 <davis> openttdcoop secretly rules openttd
11:48:46 <Rubidium> although maybe your idea of forge might be different from mine; I'm thinking of sourceforge here
11:49:08 <dihedral> i am too, but i was referring to a certain domain on purpose
11:49:54 <planetmaker> Rubidium: the 8bpp blitter doesn't works only on some OSX... not all. But still
11:50:44 <planetmaker> dihedral: what's your idea to put on "forge.openttd.org"?
11:51:15 <dihedral> i was specifically asking for "hosted under openttd.org"
11:51:26 <Rubidium> planetmaker: okay, then what about the lack of a quartz backend?
11:51:52 <planetmaker> hm, quartz... yes, that might not work under 64 bit :-)
11:51:57 <planetmaker> Forgot about that...
11:52:16 <planetmaker> dihedral: that doesn't answer my question
11:53:03 <dihedral> i am pointing out that the 'what' is not relevant ;-)
11:53:10 <dihedral> merely chasing a domain name
11:53:26 <planetmaker> just for the sake of it? Not sensible...
11:53:40 <planetmaker> or you could just chase xxx.openttd.org as well. or mil.openttd.org.
11:53:47 <planetmaker> Both 99.99999999% won't happen
11:53:49 <dihedral> gosh! must i reason every question i ask?
11:54:02 <planetmaker> no. But if you want to get sensible answers
11:54:28 <dihedral> wow - where on earth must i be here? #tycoon?
11:54:42 <Rubidium> planetmaker: and there's the issue with getCString as well
11:54:53 <Ammler> dihedral: I would guess, it is mainly lack of time from openttd.org sysop ;-)
11:55:34 <Eddi|zuHause> dihedral: so you want forge.openttd.org redirect to dev.openttdcoop.org?
11:55:50 <planetmaker> Eddi|zuHause: that was also discussed and rejected
11:57:00 <planetmaker> Mainly for the reason that it runs not within the openttd.org domain / services itself
11:57:09 <Rubidium> planetmaker: the redirect or actually hosting it?
11:57:21 <planetmaker> Re-direct as I understood you
11:57:23 * Rubidium can't really remember such a discussion
11:57:36 <Rubidium> but then there has been a lot of other stuff on my mind lately
11:57:57 <Ammler> well, initially we made it because we needed a place for stuff not supported from openttd.org
11:58:10 <planetmaker> IIRC your argument was, that *.openttd.org would need to reside under the control of openttd.org itself
11:58:22 <planetmaker> It was probably half a year ago we had that discussion
11:58:38 <dihedral> which does kind of make sense
11:59:13 <planetmaker> to have a place where people can work on openttd-related stuff w/o commit access to the openttd svn
11:59:43 <planetmaker> Rubidium: if you changed your mind about such re-direct... *I* wouldn't mind
11:59:55 <dihedral> how about a separate domain?
12:00:12 <planetmaker> Is coop not neutral enough?
12:00:24 <Ammler> cooperation for openttd :-)
12:00:29 <dihedral> coop is totally not neutral
12:00:30 <Eddi|zuHause> i don't see the sense of this discussion...
12:00:32 <planetmaker> cooperatively developing openttd-stuff?
12:00:34 <Rubidium> planetmaker: I can't even remember a reason why I would've rejected the redirect; after all there's forum.openttd.org as well
12:00:47 <planetmaker> true that, Rubidium :-)
12:00:57 <planetmaker> dihedral: how so?
12:01:04 <planetmaker> Because of personal animosities?
12:01:16 <dihedral> because openttdcoop is a community
12:01:45 <Eddi|zuHause> and openttd is not a community?
12:01:48 <dihedral> and other communities will start joining this channel and request being recognized somehow officially :-P
12:02:14 <dihedral> hence, something neutral
12:02:17 <Eddi|zuHause> i _really_ don't see the sense of this discussion
12:02:20 <Ammler> we have splitted that from start by making a seperate channel
12:02:22 <planetmaker> Then maybe the re-direct similar to forums might seem quite fine
12:03:03 <Ammler> there is no devzone talk in #openttdcoop
12:04:01 <dihedral> and where is the devzone channel?
12:04:09 <Eddi|zuHause> creator of "Pushing Daisies" and "Dead Like Me" revives "The Munsters"
12:04:52 <Eddi|zuHause> ""Modern Family" meets "True Blood""
12:05:20 <dihedral> planetmaker, neutral could also mean something tt wide :-)
12:05:24 <dihedral> just like the forums
12:05:30 <Rubidium> planetmaker: can't find a discussion about redirecting to the devzone
12:06:17 <Ammler> Rubidium: maybe look at talks about noai, dunno if it was public...
12:06:48 <Rubidium> I'm looking at my own logs of the last 16 or so months
12:07:13 <Ammler> but maybe we only mentioned to use the domain, not a simple redirect...
12:07:19 <Ammler> wasn't really main topic
12:07:26 <Rubidium> planetmaker is the only one that uses a - in redirect though
12:07:49 <Ammler> Rubidium: it was more like 1 month
12:08:05 <Ammler> as we shortly talked about merge noai.openttd.org and devzone
12:08:20 <dihedral> perhaps he mentioned cname :-P
12:09:38 <Rubidium> merging the repositories from noai.openttd.org into dev.openttdcoop.org is something quite different IMO
12:10:38 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: don't forget Wonderfalls :)
12:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> Rubidium: i never watched that
12:12:15 <Rubidium> stupid twats in the US that like crap like ATWT and "So you can <activity>" over those beauties from Brian
12:15:20 <Eddi|zuHause> maybe he should start working in canada, and getting funds from britain and germany, instead of relying on US money ;)
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12:39:26 <dihedral> waldtroll... goblin.... hmmm - sounds promissing :-P
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12:56:05 <waldtroll> nah, internets is serious business
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16:01:25 <Yexo> Rubidium / TrueBrain: noai.openttd.org is down
16:01:49 <Yexo> no error, but loading the page never stops (and no content is returned)
16:05:50 <TrueBrain> mongrel was completely stuck
16:06:01 <TrueBrain> worst software evah! :D
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16:11:30 <Eddi|zuHause> put "0 4 * * 1 /usr/bin/killall mongrel" into crontab? ;)
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16:34:29 <Rubidium> Eddi|zuHause: we've done something similar for lighty when that was leaking like hell, but that didn't quite help
16:36:10 <Eddi|zuHause> (i really hope my computer arrives tomorrow, not on monday)
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16:39:19 <Ammler> you have quite a silly setup for your redmine :-)
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16:41:01 <Rubidium> silly == default I reckon
16:42:23 <Ammler> sounds more like developing testing env
16:42:48 <Ammler> you use lighty and nginx else, why not for redmine?
16:45:07 <Rubidium> no idea, I don't really dare to enter that vserver
16:47:28 <Terkhen> I had forgotten about that spanish translation topic
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17:06:47 <welshdragon> aah, i love mass exoduses of people
17:07:03 <welshdragon> my 'capital' is shrinking in size
17:08:16 <planetmaker> where do you see an exodus here?
17:09:40 <Eddi|zuHause> over here, those are called "netsplit"
17:11:19 <peter1138> he's talking about his game...
17:12:03 <planetmaker> people here play games?
17:12:51 <Belugas> #Games people play in the middle of the night
17:13:11 <Belugas> Alan Parson's Project
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17:13:15 <Eddi|zuHause> please, don't tell us more ;)
17:13:43 <Belugas> #That's the way - han han han han - I like it!
17:13:56 <Lakie> Rubidium: are the ttdpatch nightlies compiled with guard?
17:14:13 <Rubidium> how do you mean "with guard"?
17:15:02 <Lakie> Hmm... I wonder why it crashes for wallyweb then, since for me only compiling with GUARD will result in the ud2
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17:15:30 <Lakie> Though, I do compile with DEBUG=1, so that might avoid it too.
17:16:28 <Rubidium> *or* openwatcom's setvars must set GUARD
17:16:53 <Lakie> I'm unsure, but thanks for the answer.
17:17:05 <Lakie> Looks like a memory overwrite somewhere.
17:17:47 <Rubidium> but if openwatcom set it, it's only used for the DOS TTDP nightlies
17:18:15 <Lakie> Aye, I'm not really sure whats happening, I suspect a bad pointer index or something silly
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17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: translators * r20858 /trunk/src/lang/arabic_egypt.txt:
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: -Update from WebTranslator v3.0:
17:45:38 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: arabic_egypt - 57 changes by kasakg
17:52:57 <Lakie> Ah, object heights is overwiting memory.
17:55:09 <Lakie> And now I understand why
17:55:27 <Lakie> uvar<b/w> was being used instead of uvard
17:56:08 <Rubidium> but height's a byte, isn't it?
17:56:40 <Lakie> Aye, but the NOBJECTS/4 adjusts it to number of dwords
17:56:54 <Lakie> NOBJECTS/(bytes in a dword)
17:57:15 <Lakie> I presume because allocating dwords is faster than words
17:57:59 <Lakie> As such it was actually only allocated NOBJECTS/4 bytes for it all, which ended up breaking it
17:58:14 <Lakie> Rather than NOBJECTS byes.
17:58:28 * Lakie wonders how this went unnoticed for so long
17:58:43 <Rubidium> a certain limit not being reached?
17:59:36 <Lakie> You'd need 100 loaded objects to hit that limit
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18:05:13 <Lakie> With the objects having 'nofoundation' bit set, do you allow them on slopes and such?
18:06:41 <Eddi|zuHause> if that means "don't draw default foundation", then why shouldn't it be allowed?
18:07:09 <Lakie> Well, my code doesn't adjust them but does adjust the origin tile.
18:07:25 <Lakie> Thus is the origin tile is a slope, it denies the build
18:07:42 <Lakie> (if no cb157 given for expected slope tiles)
18:08:25 <Lakie> I was wondering if I should allow it adjust any tile regardless allowing the normal build system
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18:10:27 <Lakie> And just assume the grf will composate as needed. ;)
18:11:52 <Rubidium> OpenTTD just assumes the normal flatness rules apply
18:12:12 <Lakie> Ok, makes my life easier. :)
18:12:15 <Rubidium> i.e. it'd be a flat platform if foundations would be drawn
18:12:41 <Rubidium> (if the land slope cb is not enabled ofcourse)
18:13:07 <Lakie> mb was using a hybrid with wacked my original implemenation due to a slight oversight
18:13:19 <Lakie> (ie. some tiles using cb157 and others not)
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18:59:09 <CIA-2> OpenTTD: frosch * r20859 /trunk/src/os/macosx/macos.mm: -Fix [FS#4143]: Remove an outdated comment and just reference the readme. (planetmaker)
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23:02:24 * SmatZ hates autoconf-generated configures
23:02:34 <SmatZ> they take so long to configure!
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